PLATO COMPLETE WORKS. Edited, with Introduction and Notes, by. Associate Editor D. S. HUTCHINSON JOHN M. COOPER. Indianapolis/Cambridge

Transcription

1 PLATO COMPLETE WORKS Eit, with Introution an Nots, y JOHN M. COOPER Assoiat Eitor D. S. HUTCHINSON HACKETI PUBLISHING COMPANY Inianapolis/Camrig

2 LACHES Lahs 665 whthr this was a gnuinly 'Sorati' ia or not, h an th two gnrals fin iffiultis in it that thy sm to s no immiat way to rsolv, an th isussion raks off.,.m.. In Grk, th sujt of this ialo~u is anria, litrally 'manlinss', a prso~a'. qualzty of wi sop, ovrlng all th sorts of unwavring, ativ larship In ~n on half of th ommunity that wr traitionally xpt in Grk Clt/S of tru mn. Its spial onnotation of military prowss maks 'ourag' a suital, vn invital, translation, ut its roar sop shoul orn In min. Hr Sorats pros th traitional onption of suh ourag as th primary quality a young man shoul rought up to possss. His fllow isussants inlu two istinguish Athnian gnrals, Lahs an Niias, ativ in th Ploponnsian War (Niias was aptur an put to ath i~ th isastrous Athnian withrawal from Siily in 413). Th othr two parlis to th,scussion ar lrly an unistinguish sons of istinguish statsmn an gnrals of arlir tims-lysimahus, son of Aristis 'th lust', a famous l~r uring. th Prsian War, an Mlsias, son of Thuy I~, son of Mlslas, a prinipal arly opponnt of Prils in his poliy of imprial xpansion. Lahs has an unusually full an xtnsiv 'prologu' for Sorats laks ovr th rins of th isussion an sks an rfuts first Lahs' an Ihn Niias' ias aout Ih natur of ourag. Its funtion is at last In part to provi opportunitis for ths four rprsntativs of th traitional onpti?n to giv it som prliminary arliulation, thus ringing out som of th tnsions an ivrgnt ways of thinking aout ourag an rlat mattrs that th traition harors an that Sorats xploits in his own qustioning latr on. As always in Plato's 'Sorati' ialogus, nithr gnral's answrs to Sorats' quslion 'What is ourag?' prov satisfatory. Muh of th isussion frr uss upon th lmnt of knowlg-of rason, nuan rsponsivnss to th tail irumstans for ation-that on rfltion Lahs an Niias oth agr is an ssntial,. though prhaps somwhat sumrg, part of th traitional onption to whih thy thmslvs ar ommitt. It is aus of this that N!~las.an Sorats agr (Lahs is slow to apt th point, ut it is larly Implz In what h has alray sai aout ourag's involving 'wisom') that no um animal, an not vn hilrn, an orrtly all ouragous-howvr muh popl may orinarily spak lhat way. Niias, in, wanls to fin ourag simply as a kin of wisom-wisom aout what is to far an whal, on th ontrary, to uoy up y an ma hopll as on pursus on's ojtivs. H intimats that this fits wll with thing;h has har Sorats sayan othr oasions, an in fat towar th n of Protagoras Sorats os aopt just this formulation of ourag. Hr, howvr, 664 LYSIMACHUS: You hav sn th man fighting in annor, Niias an Lahs. 178 Whn Mlsias an I invit you to s him with us, w nglt to giv th rason why, ut now w shall xplain, aus w think it spially right to frank with you. Now thr ar som popl who mak fun of franknss an if anyon asks thir avi, thy on't say what thy think, ut thy mak a shot at what th othr man woul lik to har an say somthing iffrnt from thir own opinion. But you w onsir apal not only of forming a jugmnt ut also, having form on, of saying xatly what you think, an this is why w hav takn you into our onfin aout what w ar going to ommuniat to you. Now th 179 mattr aout whih I hav n making suh a long praml is this: w hav ths two sons hr-this on is th son of my frin Mlsias hr, an h is all Thuyis aftr his granfathr, an this on is my son, who also gos y his granfathr's nam-w all him Aristis aftr my fathr. W hav ma up our mins to tak as goo ar of thm as w possily an an not to hav lik most parnts, who, whn thir hilrn start to grow up, prmit thm to o whatvr thy wish. No, w think that now is th tim to mak a ral ginning, so far as w an. Sin w knw that oth of you ha sons too, w thought that you, if anyon, woul hav n onrn aout th sort of training that woul mak th st mn of thm. An if y any han you hav not turn your attntion to this kin of thing vry oftn, lt us rmin you that you ought not to nglt it, an lt us invit you to ar for your sons along with ours. How w rah this onlusion, Niias an Lahs, you must har, vn if it mans my talking a it longr. Now you must know that Mlsias an I tak our mals togthr, an th oys at with us. W shall frank with you, xatly as I sai in th ginning: ah of us has a grat many fin things to say to th young mn aout his own fathr, things thy ahiv oth in war an in pa in thir managmnt of th affairs oth of thir allis an of th ity hr. But nithr of us has a wor to say aout his own aomplishmnts. This is what shams us in front of thm, an w lam our fathrs for allowing us to tak things asy whn w wr growing up, whil thy wr usy with othr popl's affairs. An w point ths sam things out to th young popl hr, saying that if thy ar arlss of thmslvs an isoint to us, thy will turn out to noois, ut if thy tak pains, prhaps thy may om worthy of th Translat y Rosamon Knt Spragu.

3 666 Lahs nams thy ar.' Now th oys promis to oint, so w ar looking into th qustion what form of instrution or prati woul mak thm turn out st. Somoy suggst this form of instrution to us, saying that it woul a fin thing for a young man to larn fighting in armor. An h prais this partiular man whom you hav just sn giving a isplay an pro to nourag us to s him. So w thought w ought to go to s th man an to tak you with us, not only as fllow sptators ut also as fllow ounsllors an partnrs, if you shoul 180 willing, in th ar of our sons. This is what w want to shar with you. So now is th tim for you to giv us your avi, not only aout this form of instrution-whthr you think it shoul larn or not-ut also aout any othr sort of stuy or pursuit for a young man whih you amir. Tll us too, what part you will tak in our joint ntrpris. NICIAS: I, for on, Lysimahus an Mlsias, applau your plan an am ray to tak part in it. An I think Lahs hr is ray too. LACHES: You ar quit right, Niias. As for what Lysimahus sai just now aout his fathr an Mlsias' fathr, I think that what h sai appli vry wll to thm an to us an to vryon ngag in puli affairs, aus this is prtty gnrally what happns to thm-that thy nglt thir privat affairs, hilrn as wll as vrything ls, an manag thm arlssly. So you wr right on this point, Lysimahus. But I am astonish that you ar inviting us to your fllow ounsllors in th uation of th young mn an ar not inviting Sorats hr! In th first pla, h oms from your own m, an in th son, h is always spning his tim in plas whr th young mn ngag in any stuy or nol pursuit of th sort you ar looking for. LVSIMACHUS: What o you man, Lahs? Has our frin Sorats onrn himslf with any things of this kin? LACHES: Crtainly, Lysimahus. NICIAS: This is a point I an vouh for no lss than Lahs, sin h only rntly rommn a man to m as musi tahr for my son. Th man's nam is Damon, a pupil of Agathols, an h is th most aomplish of mn, not only in musi, ut in all th othr pursuits in whih you woul think it worthwhil for oys of his ag to spn thir tim. LYSIMACHUS: Popl at my tim of lif, Sorats, Niias, an Lahs, ar no longr familiar with th young aus our avaning yars kp us at hom so muh of th tim. But if you, son of Sophronisus, hav any goo avi to giv your fllow msman, you ought to giv it. An you hav a uty to o so, aus you ar my frin through your fathr. H an I wr always omras an frins, an h i without our vr having ha a singl iffrn. An this prsnt onvrsation rmins m of somthing-whn th oys hr ar talking to ah othr at hom, thy 1. On th oys' futur s Thattus l50 ff., whr w ar tol that Aristis am an assoiat of Sorats ut lft his ompany too soon. Both Aristis an th young Thuyis ar mntion in Thags 130a ff. Lahs 667 oftn mntion Sorats an prais him highly, ut I'v nvr thought to ask if thy wr spaking of th son of Sophronisus. Tll m, oys, is this 181 th Sorats you spok of on thos oasions? BoYS: Crtainly, fathr, this is th on. LYSIMACHUS: I am light, Sorats, that you kp up your fathr's goo rputation, for h was th st of mn,,.n I am s~ially plas at th ia that th los tis twn your family an mm will rnw. LACHES: Don't unr any irumstans lt th man gt away, Lysimahus-aus I hav sn him lswhr kping up not only his fathr's rputation ut that of his ountry. H marh with m.in. th rtrat fro?, Dlium,' an I an tll you that if th rst ha n Willing to hav m th sam mannr, our ity woul saf an w woul not thn hav suffr a isastr of that kin. LYSIMACHUS: Sorats, th prais you ar riving is rtainly of a high orr oth aus it oms from mn who ar to trust an aus of th~ qualitis for whih thy prais you. B assur that I am light to har that you ar hl in suh stm, an plas onsir m among thos most kinly ispos towars you. You yourslf ought to hav visit us long for an onsir us your frins-that woul hav n th right thing to o. Wll, sin w hav rogmz ah othr, rsolv now, starting toay, to assoiat oth with us an th young m~n hr an to mak our aquaintan, so that you may prsrv th family frinship. So o what I ask, an w in tum shall kp you in min~ o~ your promis. But what hav you all to say aout ourongmal qustion. What is your opinion? Is fighting in armor a usful sujt for young mn to larn or not? SoRATES: Wll, I shall try to avis you aout ths things as st I an, Lysimahus, in aition to prforming all th thi.ngs to whih you all my attntion. Howvr, it sms to m to mor SUItal, SIn I am youngr than th othrs an mor inxprin in ths mattrs, for m to listn first to what thy hav to say an to larn from thm. But if I shoul hav somthing to a to what thy say, thn will th tim for m to tah an prsua oth you an th othrs. Com, Niias, why osn't on of you two gin?. NICIAS: Wll, thr is no rason why not, Sorats. I thmk that knowlg of this ranh of stuy is nfiial for th young in all sorts of ways. For on thing, it is a goo ia for th young not to spn thir tim in th pursuits in whih thy normally o lik to s!"n~ it whn thy ar~ at lisur, ut rathr in this on, whih nssanly Improvs thir ois, 182 sin it is in no way infrior to gymnastics xriss an no lss strnuous, an, at th sam tim, this an horsmanship ar forms of xris spially suit to a fr itizn. For in th ontst in whih w ar th 2. Th Athnians wr fat y th Bootians at Dlium in Novmr of 424, th ighth yar of th Ploponnsian War. Aliia~ rfrs to th onut of Sorats in th rtrat (to th trimnt of Lahs) at SymposIum 220 ff.

4 ontstants an in th mattrs on whih our struggl pns, only thos ar prati who know how to us th instrumnts of war. An again, thr is a rtain avantag in this form of instrution vn in an atual attl, whnvr on has to fight in lin with a numr of othrs. But th gratst avantag of it oms whn th ranks ar rokn an it thn oms nssary for a man to fight in singl omat, ithr in pursuit whn h has to attak a man who is fning himslf, or in flight, whn h has to fn himslf against anothr prson who is attaking him. A man who has this skill woul suffr no harm at th hans of a singl opponnt, nor vn prhaps at th hans of a largr numr, ut h woul hav th avantag in vry way. Thn again, suh a stuy arouss in us th sir for anothr fin form of instrution, sin vry man who larns to fight in armor will want to larn th sujt that oms nxt, that is, th sin of tatis; an whn h has mastr this an takn pri in it, h will prss on to th whol art of th gnral. So it has alray om lar that what is onnt with this lattr art, all th stuis an pursuits whih ar fin an of grat valu for a man to larn an to prati, hav this stuy as a starting point. An w shall a to this an avantag whih is not at all ngligil, that this knowlg will mak vry man muh olr an ravr in war than h was for. An lt us not omit to mntion, vn if to som it might sm a point not worth making, that this art will giv a man a finr-looking apparan at th vry momnt whn h ns to hav it, an whn h will appar mor frightning to th nmy aus of th way h looks. So my opinion, Lysimahus, is just as I say, that young mn shoul taught ths things, an I hav givn th rasons why I think so. But if Lahs has anything to say on th othr si, I woul gla to har it. LACHES: But th fat is, Niias, that it is iffiult to maintain of any stuy whatsovr that it ought not to larn, aus it sms to a goo ia to larn vrything. So as far as this fighting in armor is onrn, if it is a gnuin ranh of stuy, as thos who tah it laim, an as Niias says, thn it ought to larn, ut if it is not a ral sujt an th popl who propos to tah it ar iving us, or if it is a ral sujt ut not a vry important on, what n is thr to larn it? Th rason I say. ths things aout it is that I onsir that, if thr wr anything 10 It, It woul not hav sap th attntion of th Laamonians, who hav no othr onrn in lif than to look for an ngag in whatvr stuis an pursuits will inras thir supriority in war. An if th Laamonians ha ovrlook th art, th tahrs of it woul rtainly not hav ovrlook this fat, that th Laamonians ar th most onrn with suh mattrs of any of th Grks an that anyon who was honor among thm in ths mattrs woul mak a grat al of mony just as is th as whn a tragi pot is honor among us. Th rsult is that whnvr anyon fanis himslf as a goo writr of tragy, h os not go aout xhiiting his plays in th othr itis roun aout Athns ut oms straight hr an shows his work to our popl, as is th natural u.hs u.hs 669 thing to o. But I osrv that thos who fight in armor rgar Laamon as forin groun an kp from stting foot in it. Thy giv it a wi rth an prfr to xhiit to anyon rathr than th Spartans-in fat thy tak pains to slt popl who thmslvs amit that plnty of othrs surpass thm in warfar. Thn again, Lysimahus, I hav nountr quit a fw of ths gntlmn on th atual fil of attl an I hav sn what thy ar lik. This maks it possil for us to onsir th mattr at first han. In a mannr whih sms almost lirat, not a Singl pratitionr of th art of fighting in armor has vr om rnown in war. An yt in all th othr arts, thos who ar wll-known in a~ ar thos who hav prati th various ons. But th mn who prati this art sm to thos who hav th worst luk at it. For instan, this vry man Stsilaus, whom you an I hav witnss giving a isplay for suh a larg row an praising himslf th way h i, I on saw in th quit iffrnt irumstans of atual warfar givin!? a muh finr monstration against his will. On an oasion whn a ship on whih h was srving as a marin ramm a transport vssl, h was arm WIth a omination syth an spar, as singular a wapon as h was singular a man. His othr puliaritis ar not worth rlating, ut lt m tll you how his invntion of a syth plus a spar turn out. In th ours of th fight it somhow got ntangl in th rigging of th othr ship an thr it stuk. So Stsilaus ragg at th wapon 10 an attmpt to fr It, ut h oul not, an manwhil his ship was going y th othr ship. For a tim h kpt running along th k holing fast to th spar. But whn th othr ship was atually passing his an was raggmg him aftr it whil h still hl onto th wapon, h lt it sli through his han until h just ha hol of th frul at th n. Thr was laughtr an applaus from th mn on th transport at th sight of him, an whn somoy hit th k at his ft with a ston an h lt go th s~aft, thn vn th mn on th trirm oul no longr kp from laughmg whn thy saw that rmarkal syth-spar angl.i~g fro~ th transport. Now prhaps ths things may of valu,. as Nllas mamtams, ut ~y ~wn xprin has n of th sort I sn. So, as I sai In th gmmng, ithr it is an art ut has littl valu, or it is not an art ut popl say an prtn that it is, ut in any as it is not worth tryi~g to larn. An thn it sms to m that if a owarly man shoul Imagm h ha mastr th art, h woul, aus of his inrasing rashnss, show up mor larly th sort of man h was, whras in th as of a rav man, vryon woul wathing him an if h ma th smallst mistak, h woul inur a grat al of ritiism. Th rason for this is that a man who prtns to knowlg of this sort is th ojt of nvy, so that unlss h is outstaningly suprior to th rst, thr IS no way 10 whih h an possily avoi oming a laughingstok whn h laims to hav. this knowlg. So th stuy of this art sms to m to of this sort, Lyslmahus. But, as I sai for, w ought not to lt Sorats hr sap, ut w ought to onsult him as to his opinion on th mattr in han. 184

5 Lahs LYSIMACHUS: ~ll, I o ask your opinion, Sorats, sin what might all our oun.l sms to m to still in n of somon to ast th iing vot. If ths two. h~ agr, thr woul lss nssity of suh a prour, ut as.t.s, you priv that Lahs has vot in opposition to Niias. So w woul o wll to har from you too an fin out with whih of thm you plan to vot. ' SoRATES: W~at's that, Lysimahus? Do you intn to ast your vot for whatvr pos.t1on.s approv y th majority of us? LYSIMACHUS: Why, what ls oul a prson o, Sorats? SoRATES: An o you, Mlsias, plan to at in th sam way? Suppos thr shoul a ounil to i whthr your son ought to prati a partiular kin of gymnasti xris, woul you prsua y th gratr numr or y whovr has n uat an xris unr a goo trainr? MELESIAS: Proaly y th lattr, Sorats. SoRATES: An you woul prsua y him rathr than y th four of us? MELESIAS: Proaly. So~ATES: So I think it is y knowlg that on ought to mak isions, f on '5 to mak thm wll, an not y majority rul. MELESIAS: Crtainly. SoRATES: So in this prsnt as it is also nssary to invstigat first of all whth~r any on ~f us is an xprt in th sujt w ar ating, or not. An.f on of us '5, thn w shoul listn to him vn if h is only on, an.srgar th othrs. But.f no on of us is an xprt, thn w must look f~)f som.on. who is. Or o you an Lysimahus suppos that th sujt m qustion.s som small thing an not th gratst of all our possssions? Th qustion is rally, I suppos, that of whthr your sons turn out to worthwhli prsons or th opposit-an th fathr's whol stat will manag in aoran with th way th sons turn out. MELESIAS: You ar right. SoRATES: So w ought to xris grat forthought in th mattr. MELESIAS: Ys, w shoul. So~ATES:Thn, in kping with what I sai just now, how woul w m:,stlgat.f w want to fin out whih of us was th most xprt w.th rgar to gymnastis? Wouln't it th man who ha stui an prati th art an who ha ha goo tahrs in that partiular sujt? MELESIAS: I shoul think so. SoRATES: An vn for that, oughtn't w to invstigat what art it.s of wh.h w ar looking for th tahrs? MELESIAS: What o you man? SoRATES: Prhaps it will mor lar if I put it this way: I o not think w hav r.ah any prlimmary agrmnt as to what in th wol:/ w ar~ onsultmg ao~t an invstigating whn w ask whih of us is xprt m.t an has aquir tahrs for this purpos, an whih of us is not. Lahs 671 NICIAS: But, Sorats, arn't w invstigating th art of fighting in armor an isussing whthr young mn ought to larn it or not? SoRATES: Quit so, Niias. But whn a man onsirs whthr or not h shoul us a rtain miin to anoint his ys, o you think h is at that momnt taking ounsl aout th miin or aout th ys? NIClAS: Aout th ys. SoRATES: Thn too, whnvr a man onsirs whthr or not an whn h shoul put a ril on a hors, I suppos h is at that momnt taking ounsl aout th hors an not aout th ril? NICIAS: That is tru. SoRATES: So, in a wor, whnvr a man onsirs a thing for th sak of anothr thing, h is taking ounsl aout that thing for th sak of whih h was onsiring, an not aout what h was invstigating for th sak of somthing ls. NIClAS: Nssarily so. SoRATES: Thn th qustion w ought to ask with rspt to th man who givs us avi, is whthr h is xprt in th ar of that thing for th sak of whih w ar onsiring whn w onsir. NICIAS: Crtainly. SoRATES: So o w now lar that w ar onsiring a form of stuy for th sak of th souls of young mn? NICIAS: Ys. SoRATES: Thn th qustion whthr anyon of us is xprt in th ar of th soul an is apal of aring for it wll, an has ha goo tahrs, is th on w ought to invstigat. LACHES: What's that, Sorats? Havn't you vr noti that in som mattrs popl om mor xprt without tahrs than with thm? SoRATES: Ys, I hav, Lahs, ut you woul not want to trust thm whn thy sai thy wr goo raftsmn unlss thy shoul hav som wll-xut prout of thir art to show you-an not just on ut mor than on. LACHES: What you say is tru. SoRATES: Thn what w ought to o, Lahs an Niias, sin Lysimahus an Mlsias all us in to giv thm avi aout thir two sons out of a sir that th oys' souls shoul om as goo as possilif w say w hav tahrs to show, is to point out to thm th ons who in th first pla ar goo thmslvs an hav tn th souls of many young mn, an in th son pla hav manifstly taught us. Or, if any on of us says that h himslf has ha no tahr ut has works of his own to tll of, thn h ought to show whih of th Athnians or forignrs, whthr slav or fr, is rogniz to hav om goo through his influn. But if this is not th as with any of us, w shoul giv orrs that a sarh ma for othrs an shoul not run th risk of ruining th sons of our frins an thus inurring th gratst rproah from thir narst rlativs. Now I, Lysimahus an Mlsias, am th first to say, 186

6 672 Lahs Lahs onrning myslf, that I hav ha no tahr in this sujt. An yt I hav long aftr it from my youth up. But I i not hav any mony to giv th sophists, who wr th only ons who profss to al to mak a ultivat man of m, an I myslf, on th othr han, am unal to isovr th art vn now. If Niias or Lahs ha isovr it or larn it, I woul not surpris, aus thy ar rihr than I an so may hav larn it from othrs, an also olr, so thy may hav isovr it alray. Thus thy sm to m to apal of uating a man, aus thy woul nvr hav givn thir opinions so farlssly on th sujt of pursuits whih ar nfiial an harmful for th young if thy ha not liv thmslvs to suffiintly inform on th sujt. In othr mattrs I hav onfin in thm, ut that thy shoul iffr with ah othr surpriss m. So I mak this ountr-rqust of you, Lysimahus: just as Lahs was urging you just now not to lt m go ut to ask m qustions, so I now all on you not to lt Lahs go, or Niias, ut to qustion thm, saying that Sorats nis having any knowlg of th mattr or ing omptnt to i whih of you spaks th truth, aus h nis having n a isovrr of suh things or having n anyon's pupil in thm. So, Lahs an Niias, ah of you tll us who is th lvrst prson with whom you hav assoiat in this mattr of uating young mn, an whthr you aquir your knowlg of th art from anothr prson or foun it out for yourslvs, an, if you larn it from som on, who wr your rsptiv tahrs, an what othr prsons shar th sam art with thm. My rason for saying all this is that, if you ar too usy aus of your ivi rsponsiilitis, w an go to ths mn an prsua thm, ithr y mans of gifts or favors or oth, to look aftr oth our oys an yours too so that thy won't put thir anstors to sham y turning out to worthlss. But if you yourslvs hav n th isovrrs of suh an art, giv us an xampl of what othr prsons you hav alray ma into fin mn y your ar whn thy wr originally worthlss. B<:aus if you ar aout to gin uating popl now for th first tim, you ought to wath out in as th risk is ing run, not y a guina-pig, ut y your own sons an th hilrn of your frins, an you shoul kp from oing just what th provr says not to o-to gin pottry on a win jar' So stat whih of ths altrnativs you woul slt as ing appropriat an fitting for you an whih you woul rjt. Fin out ths things from thm, Lysimahus, an on't lt th mn sap. LYsIMACHUS: I lik what Sorats has sai, gntlmn. But whthr you ar willing to qustion aout suh mattrs an to giv aount of thm, you must i for yourslvs, Niias an Lahs. As far as Mlsias hr an I ar onrn, w woul rtainly plas if th two of you wr willing to giv omplt answrs to all of Sorats' qustions. Baus, as I start to say right at th ginning, th rason w invit you to avis us on ths mattrs was that w suppos that you woul naturally hav givn som thought to suh things-spially so sin your sons, lik ours, ar vry narly of an ag to uat. So, if you hav no ojtion, spak up an look into th sujt al?ng with Sorats, xhan~ing argumnts with ah othr. B~us h IS nght m saymg that It IS aout th most important of our affalts that w ar onsultmg. So I if you think this is what ought to on. NIClAS: It is quit lar to m, Lysimahus, that your knowlg of Sorats is limit to your aquaintan with his fathr an that you hav ha no ontat with th man himslf, xpt whn h was a hil-i suppos h may hav mingl with you an your fllow msmn, following along with his fathr at th tmpl or at som othr puh gathring. But you ar oviously still unaquaint with th man as h is now h has grown up. LVSIMACHUS: What xatly o you man, Niias? NICIAS: You on't appar to m to know that whovr oms into los ontat with Sorats an assoiats with him in onvrsahon must nssarily, vn if h gan y onvrsing aout somthing quit iffrnt in th first pla, kp on ing l aout y th man's argumnts unhl h sumits to answring qustions aout himslf onrmng oth his prsnt mannr of lif an th lif h has liv hithrto. An whn h os sumit to this qustioning, you on't raliz that Sorats will not lt him go for h has wll an truly tst vry last tail. I prsonally am austom to th man an know that on has to put up with this kin of tratmnt from him, an furthr, I know prftly wll that I myslf will hav to sumit to it. I tak plasur in th man's ompany, Lysimahus, an on't rgar it as at all a a thing to hav it rought to our attntion that w hav on or ar oing wrong. Rathr I think that a man who os not run away from suh tratmnt ut is willing, aoring to th saying of Solon, to valu larning as long as h livs: not supposing that ol ag rings him wisom of itslf, will nssarily pay mor attntion to th rst of his lif. For m thr is nothing unusual or unplasant m ing xamin y Sorats, ut I raliz som tim ago that th onvrsation woul not aout th oys ut aout ourslvs, if Sorats wr prsnt. As I say, I on't myslf min talking with Sorats in ~hatvr way h liks-ut fin out how Lahs hr fls aout suh thmgs.. LACHES: I hav just on fling aout isussions, Nllas,. or, If you lik, not on ut two, aus to som I might sm to a ISCUSSIon-lovr an to othrs a isussion-hatr. Whnvr I har a man isussing virtu or som kin of wisom, thn, if h rally is a man an worthy of th wors h uttrs, I am ompltly light to s th appropriatnss an harmony xisting twn th spakr an his wors. An suh a n:'an sms to m to gnuinly musial, prouing th most autiful Th sam provr appars at Corgins S14. A win jar is th largst pot; on ought to larn pottry on somthing smallr. 4. Hr (s also Rpuli 536) Plato rfrs to a vrs of Solon (Athnian pot an lawgivr of th arly sixth ntury): "I grow ol vr larning many things" (frg. 18 Brgk).

7 LAhs harmony, not on th lyr or som othr plasural instrumnt, ut atually rnring his own lif harmonious y fitting his s to his wors in a truly Dorian mo, not in th Ionian, nor vn, I think, in th Phrygian or Lyian, ut in th only harmony that is gnuinly Grk. Th isours of suh a man glans my hart an maks vryon think that I am a isussion-lovr aus of th nthusiasti way in whih I wlom what is sai; ut th man who ats in th opposit way istrsss m, an th ttr h spaks, th wors I fl, so that his isours maks m look lik a isussion-hatr. Now I hav no aquaintan with th wors of Sorats, ut for now, I liv, I hav ha xprin of his s, an thr I foun him a prson privilg to spak fair wors an to inulg in vry kin of franknss. So if h posssss this aility too, I am in sympathy with th man, an I woul sumit to ing xamin y suh a prson with th gratst plasur, nor woul I fin larning urnsom, aus I too agr with Solon, though with on rsrvation-i wish to grow ol larning many things, ut from goo mn only. Lt Solon grant m this point, that th tahr shoul himslf goo, so that I may not show myslf a stupi pupil taking no light in larning. Whthr my tahr is to youngr than I am or not yt famous or has any othr suh puliarity trouls m not at all. To you thn, Sorats, I prsnt myslf as somon for you to tah an to rfut in whatvr mannr you plas, an, on th othr han, you ar wlom to any knowlg I hav myslf. Baus this has n my opinion of your haratr sin that ay on whih w shar a ommon angr an you gav m a sampl of your valor-th sort a man must giv if h is to nnr a goo aount of himslf. So say whatvr you lik an on't lt th iffrn in our ags onrn you at all. SoRATES: W rtainly an't fin fault with you for not ing ray oth to giv avi an to join in th ommon sarh. LVSIMACHUS: But th task is larly ours, Sorats (for I ount you as on of ourslvs), so tak my pla an fin out on half of th young mn what w n to larn from ths popl, an thn, y talking to th oys, join us in giving thm avi. Baus, on aount of my ag, I vry oftn forgt what qustions I was going to ask, an I forgt th answrs as wll. Thn, if frsh argumnts start up in th mil, my mmory is not xatly goo. So you o th talking an xamin among yourslvs th topis w propos. An I will listn, an whn I hav har your onvrsation, I will o whatvr you popl think st an so will Mlsias hr. SoRATES: Lt us o what Lysimahus an Mlsias suggst, Niias an Lahs. Prhaps it won't a a ia to ask ourslvs th sort of qustion whih w propos to invstigat just now: what tahrs hav w ha in this sort of instrution, an what othr prsons hav w ma ttr? Howvr, I think thr is anothr sort of inquiry that will ring us to th sam point an is prhaps on that gins somwhat mor narly from th ginning. Suppos w know, aout anything whatsovr, that if it is LAhs 675 a to anothr thing, it maks that thing ttr, an furthrmor, w ar al to mak th aition, thn larly w know th vry thing aout whih w shoul onsulting as to how on might otain it most asily an st. Prhaps you on't unrstan what I man, ut will o so mor 190 asily this way: suppos w know that Sight, whn a to th ys, maks ttr thos ys to whih it is a, an furthrmor, w ar al to a it to th ys, thn larly w know what this vry thing sight is, aout whih w shoul onsulting as to how on might otain it most asily an st. Baus if w in't know what sight in itslf was,. nor haring, w woul harly worthy ounsllors an otors aout Ithr th ys or th ars as to th mannr in whih ithr sight or haring might st otain. LACHES: You ar right, Sorats. SoRATES: Wll thn, Lahs, arn't ths two now asking our avi as to th mannr in whih virtu might a to th souls of thir sons to mak thm ttr? LACHES: Ys, in. SoRATES: Thn isn't it nssary for us to start out knowing what virtu is? Baus if w ar not asolutly rtain what it is, how ar w going to avis anyon as to th st mtho of otaining it? LACHES: I o not think that thr is any way in whih w an o this, Sorats. SoRATES: W say thn, Lahs, that w know what it is. LACHES: Ys, w o say so. SoRATES: An what w know, w must, I suppos, al to stat? LACHES: Of ours. SoRATES: Lt us not, 0 st of mn, gin straightaway with an invstigation of th whol of virtu-that woul prhaps too grat a task-ut lt us first s if w hav a suffiint knowlg of a part. Thn it is likly that th invstigation will asir for us. LACHES: Ys, lt's o it th way you want, Sorats. SoRATES: Wll, whih on of th parts of virtu shoul w hoos? Or isn't it ovious that w ought to tak th on to whih th thniqu of fighting in armor appars to la? I suppos vryon woul think it las to ourag, wouln't thy? LACHES: I think thy rtainly woul. SoRATES: Thn lt us unrtak first of all, Lahs, to stat what ourag is. Thn aftr this w will go on to invstigat in what way it oul a to th young, to th xtnt that th aition an ma through oupations an stuis. But try to stat what I ask, namly, what our-.is. LACHES: Goo havns, Sorats, thr is no iffiulty aout that: If a man is willing to rmain at his post an to fn himslf against th nmy without running away, thn you may rst assur that h is a man of ourag.

8 Lahs SoRATES: Wll spokn, Lahs. But prhaps I am to lam for not making myslf lar; th rsult is that you i not answr th qustion I ha in min ut a iffrnt on. LACHES: What o you man, Sorats? SoRATES: I will tll you if I an. That man, I suppos, is ouragous whom you yo~rslf mn lion, that IS, th man who fights th nmy whil rmammg at his post? LACHES: Ys, that is my viw..sorates: An I agr.. But :-vhat aout this man, th on who fights with th nmy, not holmg his groun, ut in rtrat? LACHES: What i you man, in rtrat? SoRATES: Why, I man th way th Sythians ar sai to fight, as muh rtratmg as pursumg; an thn I imagin that Homr is praising th horss of Anas whn h says thy know how "to pursu an fly quikly this way an that," an h praiss Anas himslf for his knowlg of far an h alls him "ounsllor of fright." LACHES: An Homr is right, Sorats, aus h was spaking of hariots, an It wa~ th SythIan horsmn to whih you rfrr. Now avalry o fight m this fashion, ut th hoplits in th mannr I sri. SoRATES: Expt prhaps th Spartan hoplits, Lahs. Baus thy say th~t at Pla~aa th Spartans, whn thy wr up against th solirs arrying WIkr shils, wr not willing to stan thir groun an fight against thm ut ran away. Thn whn th ranks of th Prsians wr rokn thy turn an fought, just lik avalrymn, an so won that partiular attl. LACHES: You ar right. SoRATES: So as I sai just now, my poor qustioning is to lam for your poor answr, aus I want to larn from you not only what onslituts ourag for a hoplit ut for a horsman as wll an for vry sort of warnor. An I want to inlu not only thos who ar ouragous m warfar ut also thos who ar rav in angrs at sa, an th ons who show ourag in illnss an povrty an affairs of stat; an thn agam I want to inlu not only thos who ar rav in th fa of pain an far ut also. thos who ar lvr at fighting sir an plasur, whthr y stanmg thir groun or running away-aus thr ar som mn, arn't thr, Lahs, who ar rav in mattrs lik ths? LACHES: Vry muh so, Sorats. SoRATES: So ~ll th.s mn?f r~v, ut som possss ourag in pl~surs, som In pams, som In SIrs, an som in fars. An othrs, I thmk, show owari in th sam rspts. LACHES: Ys, thy o. SoRATES: Thn what ar ourag an owari? This is what I want to fin out. So try again to stat first what is th ourag that is th sam m all ths ass. Or on't you yt hav a lar unrstaning of.what I man? LACHES: Not xatly. Lahs 677 SoRATES: Wll, I man somthing lik this: suppos I ask what sp was, whih w fin in running an in playing th lyr an in spaking an in larning an in many othr instans-in fat w may say w isplay th quality, so far as it is worth mntioning, in movmnts of th arms or lgs or tongu or voi or thought? Or isn't this th way you too woul xprss it? LACHES: Ys, in. SoRATES: Thn if anyon shoul ask m, "Sorats, what o you say it is whih you all swiftnss in all ths ass," I woul answr him that what I all swiftnss is th powr of aomplishing a grat al in a short tim, whthr in sph or in running or all th othr ass. LACHES: An you woul right. SoRATES: Thn mak an ffort yourslf, Lahs, to spak in th sam way aout ourag. What powr is it whih, aus it is th sam in plasur an in pain an in all th othr ass in whih w wr just saying it ourr, is thrfor all ourag? LACHES: Wll thn, I think it is a sort of nuran of th soul, if it is nssary to say what its natur is in all ths ass. SoRATES: But it is nssary, at any rat if w ar to giv an answr to our qustion. Now this is what appars to m: I think that you on't rgar vry kin of nuran as ourag. Th rason I think so is this: I am fairly sur, Lahs, that you rgar ourag as a vry fin thing. LACHES: On of th finst, you may sur. SoRATES: An you woul say that nuran aompani y wisom is a fin an nol thing? LACHES: Vry muh so. SoRATES: Suppos it is aompani y folly? Isn't it just th opposit, harmful an injurious? LACHES: Ys. SoRATES: An you ar going to all a thing fin whih is of th injurious an harmful sort? LACHES: No, that wouln't right, Sorats. SoRATES: Thn you won't allow this kin of nuran to ourag, sin it is not fin, whras ourag is fin. LACHES: You ar right. SoRATES: Thn, aoring to your viw, it woul wis nuran whih woul ourag. LACHES: So it sms. SoRATES: Lt us s thn in what rspt it is wis-is it so with rspt to vrything oth grat an small? For instan, if a man wr to show nuran in spning his mony wisly, knowing that y spning it h woul gt mor, woul you all this man ouragous? LACHES: Havns no, not 1. SoRATES: Wll, suppos a man is a otor, an his son or som othr patint is ill with inflammation of th lungs an gs him for somthing to at or rink, an th man osn't giv in ut prsvrs in rfusing?

9 678 Lahs LACHES: No, this woul rtainly not ourag ithr, not at all. &x:rates: Wll, suppos a man nurs in attl, an his willingnss to fight IS as on wis alulation aus h knows that othrs ar oming to his ai an that h will fighting mn who ar fwr than thos on his si, an infrior to thm, an in aition his position is strongr: woul you say that this man, with his kin of wisom an prparation, nurs mor ouragously or a man in th opposit amp who is willing to rmain an hol out? LACHES: Th on in th opposit amp, Sorats, I shoul say. &x:rates: But surly th nuran of this man is mor foolish than that of th othr. LACHES: You ar right. &x:rates: An you woul say that th man who shows nuran in a avalry attak an has knowlg of horsmanship is lss ouragous than th man who laks this knowlg. LACHES: Ys, I woul. &x:rates: An th on who nurs with knowlg of slinging or arhry or som othr art is th lss ouragous. LACHES: Ys in.. &x:rates: An as many as woul willing to nur in iving own mto wlls without mg skill, or to nur in any othr similar situation, you say ar ravr than thos who ar skill in ths things. LACHES: Why, what ls woul anyon say, Sorats? &x:rates: Nothing, if that is what h thought. LACHES: Wll, this is what I think at any rat. &x:rates: An rtainly, Lahs, suh popl run risks an nur mor foolishly than thos who o a thing with art. LACHES: Thy larly o. &x:rat':: Now foolish aring an nuran was foun y us to not only Isgraful ut harmful, in what w sai arlir. LACHES: Quit so. &x:rates: But ourag was agr to a nol thing. LACHES: Ys, it was. &x:rates: But now, on th ontrary, w ar saying that a isgraful thing, foolish nuran, is ourag. LACHES: Ys, w sm to. &x:rates: An o you think w ar talking sns? LACHES: Havns no, Sorats, I rtainly on't. &x:rates: Thn I on't suppos, Lahs, that aoring to your statmnt you an I ar tun to th Dorian mo, aus our s ar not harmonizing with our wors. In s I think anyon woul say that w l'artook of ourag, ut in wors I on't suppos h woul, if h wr to hstn to OUf prsnt isussion. LACHES: You ar asolutly right. &x:rates: Wll thn: is it goo for us to in suh a stat? LACHES: Crtainly not, in no way whatsovr. Lahs 679 &x:rates: But ar you willing that w shoul agr with our statmnt to a rtain xtnt? LACHES: To what xtnt an with what statmnt? &x:rates: With th on that ommans us to nur. If you ar willing, 194 lt us hol our groun in th sarh an lt us nur, so that ourag itslf won't mak fun of us for not sarhing for it ouragously-if nuran shoul prhaps ourag aftr all. LACHES: I am ray not to giv up, Sorats, although I am not rally austom to argumnts of this kin. But an asolut sir for vitory has siz m with rspt to our onvrsation, an I am rally gtting annoy at ing unal to xprss what I think in this fashion. I still think I know what ourag is, ut I an't unrstan how it has sap m just now so that I an't pin it own in wors an say what it is. &x:rates: Wll, my frin, a goo huntr ought to pursu th trail an not giv up. LACHES: Asolutly. &x:rates: Thn, if you agr, lt's also summon Niias hr to th hunth might gt on muh ttr. LACHES: I am willing-why not? SoRATES: Com along thn, Niias, an, if you an, rsu your frins who ar storm-toss y th argumnt an fin thmslvs in troul. You s, of ours, that our affairs ar in a a way, so stat what you think ourag is an gt us out of our iffiultis as wll as onfirming your own viw y putting it into wors. NICIAS: I hav n thinking for som tim that you ar not fining ourag in th right way, Sorats. An you ar not mploying th xllnt osrvation I hav har you mak for now. &x:rates: What on was that, Niias? NIClAS: I hav oftn har you say that vry on of us is goo with rspt to that in whih h is wis an a in rspt to that in whih h is ignorant. &x:rates: By havn, you ar right, Niias. NICIAS: Thrfor, if a man is rally ouragous, it is lar that h is wis. &x:rates: You har that, Lahs? LACHES: I o, ut I on't unrstan xatly what h mans. &x:rates: Wll, I think I unrstan him, an th man sms to m to saying that ourag is som kin of wisom. LACHES: Why, what sort of wisom is h talking aout, Sorats? &x:rates: Why on't you ask him? LACHES: All right. &x:rates: Com, Niias, tll him what sort of wisom ourag woul aoring to your viw. I on't suppos it is skill in flut playing. N,C,AS: Of ours not. &x:rates: An not in lyr playing ithr. NICIAS: Far from it. &x:rates: But what is this knowlg an of what?

10 Lahs LACHES: You ar qustioning him in just th right way. SoRATES: Lt him stat what kin of knowlg it is. NICIAS: What I say, Lahs, is that it is th knowlg of th farful an th hopful in war an in vry othr situation. LACHES: How strangly h talks, Sorats. SoRATES: What o you hav in min whn you say this, Lahs? LACHES: What o I hav in min? Why, I tak wisom to quit a iffrnt thing from ourag. SoRATES: Wll, Niias, at any rat, says it isn't. LACHES: H rtainly os-that's th nonsns h talks. SoRATES: Wll, lt's instrut him insta of making fun of him. NICIAS: V~ wll, ut it striks m, Sorats, that Lahs wants to prov that I am talking nonsns sunply aus h was shown to that sort of prson himslf a momnt ago. LACHES: Quit so, Niias, an I shall try to monstrat that vry thing, ~aus you a~ talking nonsns. Tak an immiat xampl: in ass of Illnss, arn t th otors th ons who know what is to far? Or o you think th ouragous ar th popl who know? Prhaps you' all th otors th ouragous? NICIAS: No, of ours not. LACHES: An I on't imagin you man th farmrs ithr, vn though I o suppos thy ar th ons who know what is to far in farming. An all th othr raftsmn know what is to far an hop for in thir partiular arts. But ths popl ar in no way ouragous all th sam. SoRATES: What os Lahs man, Niias? Baus h os sm to saymg somthmg. NICIAS: Ys, h is saying somthing, ut what h says is not tru. SoRATES: How so? NICIAS: H thinks a otor's knowlg of th sik amounts to somthing mor than mg al to sri halth an isas whras I think thir kno,;lg is r~trit to just this. Do you suppos, Lahs, that whn a ma~ s rov~ry IS m?r to far than his illnss, th otors know this. Or on t you think thr ar many ass in whih it woul ttr not to gt u~ from an illnss? Tll m this: o you maintain that in all ass to v IS prfral? In many ass, is it not ttr to i? LACHES: Wll, I agr with you on this point at last. NICIAS: An ~ ~ou suppos that th sam things ar to far y thos for whom It IS an avantag to i as y thos for whom it is an avantag to liv? LACHES: No, I on't. NICIAS: But o you grant this knowlg to th otors or to any othr raftsmn xpt th on who knows what is an what is not to far who is th on I all ouragous? ' SoRATES: Do you unrstan what h is saying, Lahs? LAC~ES: Ys I o-h is alling th srs th ouragous. Baus who ls will know for whom it is ttr to liv than to i? What aout you, Lahs 681 Niias-o you amit to ing a sr, or, if you ar not a sr, to not ing ouragous? NICIAS: Wll, what of it? Don't you, for your part, think it is appropriat for a sr to know what is to far an what is to hop? LACHES: Ys, I o, aus I on't s for what othr prson it woul. NICIAS: Muh mor for th man I am talking aout, my frin, aus th sr ns to know only th signs of what is to, whthr a man will xprin ath or illnss or loss of proprty, or will xprin vitory or fat, in attl or in any othr sort of ontst. But why is it mor suital for th sr than for anyon ls to jug for whom it is ttr to suffr or not to suffr ths things? LACHES: It isn't lar to m from this, Sorats, what h is trying to say. Baus h osn't slt ithr th sr or th otor or anyon ls as th man h alls ouragous, unlss som go is th prson h mans. Niias appars to m unwilling to mak a gntlmanly amission that h is talking nonsns, ut h twists this way an that in an attmpt to ovr up his iffiulty. Evn you an I oul hav xut a similar twist just now if w ha want to avoi th apparan of ontraiting ourslvs. If w wr making sphs in a ourt of law, thr might som point in oing this, ut as things ar, why shoul anyon aorn himslf snslssly with mpty wors in a gathring lik this? SoRATES: I s no rason why h shoul, Lahs. But lt us s if Niias thinks h is saying somthing an is not just talking for th sak of talking. Lt us fin out from him mor larly what it is h mans, an if h is rally saying somthing, w will agr with him, ut if not, w will instrut him. LACHES: You go aha an qustion him, Sorats, if you want to fin out. I think prhaps I hav ask nough. SoRATES: I hav no ojtion, sin th inquiry will a joint ffort on half of us oth. LACHES: Vry wll. SoRATES: Thn tll m, Niias, or rathr tll us, aus Lahs an I ar sharing th argumnt: you say that ourag is knowlg of th grouns of far an hop? NICIAS: Ys, I o. SoRATES: Thn this knowlg is somthing possss y vry fw in if, as you say, nithr th otor nor th sr will hav it an won't ouragous without aquiring this partiular knowlg. Isn't that what you'r saying? NICIAS: Just so. SoRATES: Thn, as th provr says, it is tru that this is not somthing "vry sow woul know," an sh woul not ouragous? N ICIA5: I on't think so. SoRATES: Thn it is ovious, Niias, that you o not rgar th Crommyon sow' as having n ouragous. I say this not as a jok, ut aus 5. Th famous sow of Crommyon (nar Corinth) was kill y Thsus. S Plutarh Thsus

11 LAhs I think that anyon taking this position must nssarily ny ourag to any wil ast or ls amit that som wil ast, a lion or a lopar or som sort of wil oar, is wis nough to know what is so iffiult that vry fw mn unrstan it. An th man who fins ourag as you fin It woul hav to assrt that a lion an a stag, a ull an a monky ar all qually ouragous y natur. LACHES: By havn, you talk wll, Sorats. Giv us an honst answr to this, Niias-whthr you say that ths wil asts, whom w all amit to ouragous, ar wisr than w in ths rspts, or whthr you ar to oppos th gnral viw an say that thy ar not ouragous. NICIAS: By no mans, Lahs, o I all ouragous wil asts or anything ls that, for lak of unrstaning, os not far what shoul far. Rathr, I woul all thm rash an ma. Or o you rally suppos I all all hilrn ouragous, who far nothing aus thy hav no sns? On th ontrary, I think that rashnss an ourag ar not th sam thing. My viw is that vry fw hav a shar of ourag an forsight, ut that a grat many, mn an womn an hilrn an wil animals, partak in olnss an auaity an rashnss an lak of forsight. Ths ass, whih you an th man in th strt all ouragous, I all rash, whras th ouragous ons ar th snsil popl I was talking aout. LACHES: You s, Sorats, how th man ks himslf out in wors an os it wll in his own opinion. Thos whom vryon agrs to ouragous h attmpts to priv of that istintion. NICIAS: I'm not priving you of it, Lahs, so hr up. I lar that you ar wis, an Lamahus 6 too, so long as you ar ouragous, an I say th sam of a grat many othr Athnians. LACHES: I shan't say anything aout that-though I oul-in as you shoul all m a typial Axonian.' SoRATES: Nvr min him, Lahs, I on't think you raliz that h has prour this wisom from our frin Damon, an Damon spns most of his tim with Proius, who has th rputation of ing st among th sophists at making suh vral istintions. LACHES: Wll, Sorats, it is rtainly mor fitting for a sophist to mak suh lvr istintions than for a man th ity thinks worthy to its lar. SoRATES: Wll, I suppos it woul fitting, my goo frin, for th man in harg of th gratst affairs to hav th gratst shar of wisom. But I think it worthwhil to ask Niias what h has in min whn h fins ourag in this way. LACHES: Wll thn, you ask him, Sorats. SoRATES: This is just what I intn to o, my goo frin. But on't thrfor suppos that I shall lt you out of your shar of th argumnt. Pay attntion an join m in xamining what is ing sai. 6. Lamahus shar th omman of th Siilian xpition with Niias an Aliias; h i at Syraus. 7. Th popl of th m Axon wr rgar as ausiv spakrs. LAhs 683 LACHES: Vry wll, if that sms nssary. SoRATES: Ys, it os. An you, Niias, tll m again from th gin- 198 ning-you know that whn w wr invstigating ourag at th ginning of th argumnt, w wr invstigating it as a part of virtu? NICIAS: Ys, w wr. SoRATES: An in't you giv your answr supposing that it was a part, an, as suh, on among a numr of othr parts, all of whih takn togthr wr all virtu? NIClAS: Ys, why not? SoRATES: An o you also spak of th sam parts that I o? In aition to ourag, I all tmpran an justi an vrything ls of this kin parts of virtu. Don't you? N ICIAS: Ys, in. SoRATES: Stop thr. W ar in agrmnt on ths points, ut lt us invstigat th grouns of far an onfin to mak sur that you on't rgar thm in on way an w in anothr. W will tll you what w think aout thm, an if you o not agr, you shall instrut us. W rgar as farful things thos that prou far, an as hopful things thos that o not prou far; an far is prou not y vils whih hav happn or ar happning ut y thos whih ar antiipat. Baus far is th xptation of a futur vil-or isn't this your opinion too, Lahs? LACHES: Vry muh so, Sorats. SoRATES: You har what w hav to say, Niias: that farful things ar futur vils, an th ons inspiring hop ar ithr futur non-vils or futur goos. Do you agr with this or hav you som othr viw on th sujt? NICIAS: I agr with this on. SoRATES: An you lar that knowlg of just ths things is ourag? NIClAS: Exatly so. SoRATES: Lt us fin out if w all agr on still a thir point. NICIAS: What on is that? SoRATES: I will xplain. It sms to m an my frin hr that of th various things with whih knowlg is onrn, thr is not on kin of knowlg y whih w know how things hav happn in th past, an anothr y whih w know how thy ar happning at th prsnt tim, an still anothr y whih w know how what has not yt happn might st om to in th futur, ut that th knowlg is th sam in ah as. For instan, in th as of halth, thr is no othr art rlat to th past, th prsnt, an th futur xpt that of miin,. whih, although it is a singl art, survys what is, what was, an what IS likly to in th futur. Again, in th as of th fruits of th arth, th art of farming onforms to th sam pattrn. An I suppos that oth of you ~ul ar witnss that in th as of th affairs of war, th art of gnralship IS that whih st f~rss th futur an th othr tims-nor os this art onsir it nssary to rul y th art of th sr, ut to rul it, as 199 ing ttr aquaint with oth prsnt an futur in th affairs of war.

12 684 Lalrs In fat, th law rs, not that th Sr shoul omman th gnral, ut that th gnral shoul omman th sr. Is this what w shall say, Lahs? LACHES: Ys, it is. SoRATES: Wll thn, o you agr with us, Niias, that th sam knowlg has unrstaning of th sam things, whthr futur, prsnt, or past? N,C,AS: Ys, that is how it sms to m, Sorats. SoRATES: Now, my goo frin, you say that ourag is th knowlg of th farful an th hopful, isn't that so? NICIAS: Ys, it is. SoRATES: An it was agr that farful an hopful things wr futur goos an futur vils. NICIAS: Ys, it was. SoRATES: An that th sam knowlg is of th sam things-futur ons an all othr kins. N,C,AS: Ys, that is th as. SoRATES: Thn ourag is not k,:,owlg of th farful an th hopful only, aus It unrstans not SImply futur goos an vils, ut thos of th prsnt an th past an all tims, just as is th as with th othr kins of knowlg. NICIAS: So it sms, at any rat. SoRATES: Thn you hav tol us aout what amounts to a thir part of ourag, Niias, whras w ask you what th whol of ourag was. An now it appars, aoring to your viw, that ourag is th knowlg not JUst of th farful an th hopful, ut in your own opinion, it woul th knowlg of pratially all goos an vils put togthr. Do you agr to this nw hang, Niias, or what o you say? NICIAS: That sms right to m, Sorats. SoR~TES: Thn os a rna,:, with this kin of knowlg sm to part from VIrtu m any rspt If h rally knows, in th as of all goos whatsovr, what thy ar an will an hav n, an Similarly in th as of VIls? An o you rgar that man as laking in tmpran or Justl an hohnss to whom alon longs th aility to al irumsptly with oth gos an mn with rspt to oth th farful an its opposit, an to provi himslf with goo things through his knowlg of how to assoiat with thm orrtly? N,C,AS: I think you hav a point, Sorats. SoRATES: Thn th thing you ar now talking aout, Niias, woul not a part of virtu ut rathr virtu ntir. NICIAS: So it sms. SoRATES: An w hav rtainly stat that ourag is on of th parts of virtu. NIClAS: Ys, w hav. SoRATES: Thn what w ar saying now os not appar to hol goo. NICIAS: Apparntly not. Lahs SoRATES: Thn w hav not isovr, Niias, what ourag is. N,CIAS: W on't appar to. LACHES: But I. my ar Niias, flt sur you woul mak th isovry aftr you wr' so sornful of m whil I was answring Sorats. In fat, I ha grat hops that with th hlp of Damon's wisom you woul solv th whol prolm. N,C,AS: That's a fin attitu of yours, Lahs, to think it no longr to of any importan that you yourslf wr just now shown to a prson who knows nothing aout ourag. What intrsts you is whthr I will turn out to a prson of th sam kin. Apparntly it will mak no iffrn to you to ignorant of thos things whih a man of any prtnsions ought to know, so long as you inlu m in your ignoran. Wll, you sm to m to ating in a thoroughly human fashion y notiing vryoy xpt yourslf. As far as I am onrn I think nough has n sai on th topi for th prsnt, an if any point has not n ovr suffiintly, thn latr on I think w an orrt it oth with th hlp of Damon-whom you think it right to laugh at, though you hav nvr sn th man-an with that of othrs. An whn I fl sur on ths points, I will instrut you too an won't grug th ffort-aus you sm to m to saly in n of larning. LACHES: You ar a lvr man, Niias, I know. All th sam, I avis Lysimahus hr an Mlsias to say goo-y to you an m as tahrs of th young mn an to rtain th srvis of this man Sorats, as I sai in th ginning. If my oys wr th sam ag, this is what I woul o. NICIAS: An I agt.: if Sorats is rally willing to unrtak th suprvision of th oys, thn on't look for anyon ls. In fat I woul glaly ntrust Niratus to him, if h is willing. But whnvr I ring up th sujt in any way, h always rommns othr popl to m ut is unwilling to tak on th jo himslf. But s if Sorats might mor willing to listn to you, Lysimahus. LYSIMACHUS: Wll, h shoul, Niias, sin I myslf woul willing to o a grat many things for him whih I woul not willing to o for pratially anyon ls. What o you say, Sorats? Will you omply with our rqust an tak an ativ part with us in hlping th young mn to om as goo as possil? SoRATES: Wll, it woul a trril thing, Lysimahus, to unwilling to join in assisting any man to om as goo as possil. If in th onvrsations w hav just ha I ha sm to knowing an th othr two ha not, thn it woul right to issu a spial invitation to m to prform this task; ut as th mattr stans, w wr all in th sam iffiulty. Why thn shoul anyoy hoos on of us in prfrn to anothr? What I think is that h ought to hoos non of us. But as things ar, s whthr th suggstion I am aout to mak may not a goo on: what I say w ought to o, my frins-sin this is just twn ourslvsis to join in sarhing for th st possil tahr, first for ourslvs-w rally n on-an thn for th young mn, sparing nithr mony nor

13 Lahs anything ls. What I on't avis is that w rmain as w ar. An if anyon laughs at us aus w think it worthwhil to spn our tim in shool at our ag, thn I thmk w shoul onfront him with th saying of Homr, "Mosty is not a goo mat for a ny man.'" An, not paying any attntion to what anyon may say, lt us join togthr in looking aftr oth our own mtrsts an thos of th oys. LYSIMACHUS: I lik what you say, Sorats, an th fat that I am th ols! maks m th most agr to go to shool along with th oys. Just o this for m: om to my hous arly tomorrow-on't rfus-so that w may mak plans aout ths mattrs, ut lt us mak an n of our prsnt onvrsation. SoRATES: I shall o what you say, Lysimahus, an om to you tomorrow, Go willing. 8. Oyssy xvii.347. LYSIS Lysis, togthr with Charmis, givs a rih an sutl portrayal of Sorats in on of his favorit pursuits-ngaging in onvrsation with right, ultivat, goo-looking tnag oys from istinguish Athnian familis. Lysis an Mnxnus ar st frins, in thir arly tns, still ovrsn y family srvants (slavs) as 'tutors'. (Mnxnus latr am on of Sorats' los assoiats: thr is a ialogu nam aftr him, an h was prsnt at th onvrsation in Phao') Hippothals is an olr tnag oy, infatuat with Lysis to th point of oring to ath Ctsippus (anothr los assoiat of Sorats latr on, also with him on his last ay) an th othr oys of his own ag, with his poms an pros isourss on Lysis' an his anstors' xllns. For Sorats, howvr, this is th wrong way to raw suh a young prson to you. Potry an rhtorial praiss will play to thir pri an nourag arrogan. Th right way is y ngaging thm in philosophial isussion. If thy ar worth attntion at all, it is y turning thm towar th improvmnt of thir souls, that is, thir mins, that you will attrat thir sor intrst an gratful afftion. Rars shoul ompar what Aliias says aout his own lov for Sorats in th Symposium, an Sorats' ithyram to lov for oys in his son sph in Pharus. Sorats xhiits this right approah y ngaging Lysis, an thn also his frin Mnxnus, in an xtn isussion aout th natur of frinship: who ar frins to whom (or what), an on what groun? His first qustion to Lysis fixs th thm, for it is larly announ: 'Am I right in assuming that your fathr an mothr lov you vry muh?' Th Grk wor for lov hr is philin, ognat to th wor for 'frinship', philia: 'frinship' in this isussion inlus th lov of parnts an hilrn an othr rlativs, as wll as th los ltiv attahmnts of what w unrstan as prsonal frinship. It also ovrs impassion, roti fixations lik Hippothals' for Lysis. What is frinship, so unrstoo, an unr what onitions os it atually xist? Sorats os not rally sk an xamin th oys' opinions on this topi (as h os with othr intrloutors, inluing Charmis, in Plato's 'Sorati' ialogus). Rathr, h onfronts thm with a arfully onstrut sris of onptual prolms that aris whn on tris to think sriously aout frins an frinships. Is th frin th on who lovs or th on lov? Or ar thr frins only whr ah lovs th othr? Diffiultis aris for ah solution. Or is it rathr that goo popl ar frins of othr goo popl? But wait: sin goo popl ar so muh lik on anothr, an thy o ah othr any goo at all, as frins,must o (if frinship is a goo thing)? Pots suh as Hsio 687