Euthyphro 7 SOCRATES: Again, if w iffr about th largr an th smallr, w woul turn to masurmnt an soon as to iffr. EUTHYPHRO: That is so. SOCRATES: An ab

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1 6 Euthyphro 7 b EUTHYPHRO: Not only ths, Sorats, but, as I was saying just now, I will, if you wish, rlat many othr things about th gos whih I know will amaz you. SOCRATES: I shoul not b surpris, but you will tll m ths at lisur som othr tim. For now, try to tll m mor larly what I was asking just now, for, my frin, you i not tah m aquatly whn I ask you what th pious was, but you tol m that what you ar oing now, in prosuting your fathr for murr, is pious. EUTHYPHRO: An I tol th truth, Sorats. SOCRATES: Prhaps. You agr, howvr, that thr ar many othr pious ations. EUTHYPHRO: Thr ar. SOCRATES: Bar in min thn that I i not bi you tll m on or two of th many pious ations but that form itslf that maks all pious ations pious, for you agr that all impious ations ar impious an all pious ations pious through on form, or on t you rmmbr? SOCRATES: Tll m thn what this form itslf is, so that I may look upon it an, using it as a mol, say that any ation of yours or anothr s that is of that kin is pious, an if it is not that it is not. EUTHYPHRO: If that is how you want it, Sorats, that is how I will tll you. SOCRATES: That is what I want. EUTHYPHRO: Wll thn, what is ar to th gos is pious, what is not is impious. SOCRATES: Splni, Euthyphro! You hav now answr in th way I want. Whthr your answr is tru I o not know yt, but you will obviously show m that what you say is tru. EUTHYPHRO: Crtainly. SOCRATES: Com thn, lt us xamin what w man. An ation or a man ar to th gos is pious, but an ation or a man hat by th gos is impious. Thy ar not th sam, but quit opposit, th pious an th impious. Is that not so? EUTHYPHRO: It is in. SOCRATES: An that sms to b a goo statmnt? EUTHYPHRO: I think so, Sorats. SOCRATES: W hav also stat that th gos ar in a stat of isor, that thy ar at os with ah othr, Euthyphro, an that thy ar at nmity with ah othr. Has that, too, bn sai? EUTHYPHRO: It has. SOCRATES: What ar th subjts of iffrn that aus hatr an angr? Lt us look at it this way. If you an I wr to iffr about numbrs as to whih is th gratr, woul this iffrn mak us nmis an angry with ah othr, or woul w pro to ount an soon rsolv our iffrn about this? EUTHYPHRO: W woul rtainly o so.

2 Euthyphro 7 SOCRATES: Again, if w iffr about th largr an th smallr, w woul turn to masurmnt an soon as to iffr. EUTHYPHRO: That is so. SOCRATES: An about th havir an th lightr, w woul rsort to wighing an b ronil. EUTHYPHRO: Of ours. SOCRATES: What subjt of iffrn woul mak us angry an hostil to ah othr if w wr unabl to om to a ision? Prhaps you o not hav an answr ray, but xamin as I tll you whthr ths subjts ar th just an th unjust, th bautiful an th ugly, th goo an th ba. Ar ths not th subjts of iffrn about whih, whn w ar unabl to om to a satisfatory ision, you an I an othr mn bom hostil to ah othr whnvr w o? EUTHYPHRO: That is th iffrn, Sorats, about thos subjts. SOCRATES: What about th gos, Euthyphro? If in thy hav iffrns, will it not b about ths sam subjts? EUTHYPHRO: It rtainly must b so. SOCRATES: Thn aoring to your argumnt, my goo Euthyphro, iffr- nt gos onsir iffrnt things to b just, bautiful, ugly, goo, an ba, for thy woul not b at os with on anothr unlss thy iffr about ths subjts, woul thy? EUTHYPHRO: You ar right. SOCRATES: An thy lik what ah of thm onsirs bautiful, goo, an just, an hat th opposits of ths? EUTHYPHRO: Crtainly. SOCRATES: But you say that th sam things ar onsir just by som gos an unjust by othrs, an as thy isput about ths things thy 8 ar at os an at war with ah othr. Is that not so? EUTHYPHRO: Itis. SOCRATES: Th sam things thn ar lov by th gos an hat by th gos, an woul b both go-lov an go-hat. EUTHYPHRO: It sms likly. SOCRATES: An th sam things woul b both pious an impious, aoring to this argumnt? EUTHYPHRO: I m afrai so. SOCRATES: So you i not answr my qustion, you surprising man. I i not ask you what sam thing is both pious an impious, an it appars that what is lov by th gos is also hat by thm. So it is in no way b surprising if your prsnt ation, namly punishing your fathr, may b plasing to Zus but isplasing to Cronus an Uranus, plasing to Hphastus but isplasing to Hra, an so with any othr gos who iffr from ah othr on this subjt. EUTHYPHRO: I think, Sorats, that on this subjt no gos woul iffr from on anothr, that whovr has kill anyon unjustly shoul pay th pnalty.

3 8 Euthyphro SOCRATES: Wll now, Euthyphro, hav you vr har any man maintain- ing that on who has kill or on anything ls unjustly shoul not pay th pnalty? EUTHYPHRO: Thy nvr as to isput on this subjt, both lswhr an in th ourts, for whn thy hav ommitt many wrongs thy o an say anything to avoi th pnalty. SOCRATES: Do thy agr thy hav on wrong, Euthyphro, an in spit of so agring o thy nvrthlss say thy shoul not b punish? EUTHYPHRO: No, thy o not agr on that point. SOCRATES: So thy o not say or o just anything. For thy o not vntur to say this, or isput that thy must not pay th pnalty if thy hav on wrong, but I think thy ny oing wrong. Is that not so? EUTHYPHRO: That is tru. SOCRATES: Thn thy o not isput that th wrongor must b punish, but thy may isagr as to who th wrongor is, what h i, an whn. EUTHYPHRO: You ar right. SOCRATES: Do not th gos hav th sam xprin, if in thy ar at os with ah othr about th just an th unjust, as your argumnt maintains? Som assrt that thy wrong on anothr, whil othrs ny it, but no on among gos or mn vnturs to say that th wrongor must not b punish. EUTHYPHRO: Ys, that is tru, Sorats, as to th main point. SOCRATES: An thos who isagr, whthr mn or gos, isput about ah ation, if in th gos isagr. Som say it is on justly, othrs unjustly. Is that not so? EUTHYPHRO: Ys, in. SOCRATES: Com now, my ar Euthyphro, tll m, too, that I may bom wisr, what proof you hav that all th gos onsir that man to hav bn kill unjustly who bam a murrr whil in your srvi, was boun by th mastr of his vitim, an i in his bons bfor th on who boun him foun out from th srs what was to b on with him, an that it is right for a son to noun an to prosut his fathr on bhalf of suh a man. Com, try to show m a lar sign that all th gos finitly bliv this ation to b right. If you an giv m aquat proof of this, I shall nvr as to xtol your wisom. EUTHYPHRO: This is prhaps no light task, Sorats, though I oul show you vry larly. SOCRATES: I unrstan that you think m mor ull-witt than th jury, as you will obviously show thm that ths ations wr unjust an that all th gos hat suh ations. EUTHYPHRO: I will show it to thm larly, Sorats, if only thy will listn to m. SOCRATES: Thy will listn if thy think you show thm wll. But this thought am to m as you wr spaking, an I am xamining it, saying to myslf: If Euthyphro shows m onlusivly that all th gos onsir 9 b

4 Euthyphro 9 suh a ath unjust, to what gratr xtnt hav I larn from him th natur of pity an impity? This ation woul thn, it sms, b hat by th gos, but th pious an th impious wr not thrby now fin, for what is hat by th gos has also bn shown to b lov by thm. So I will not insist on this point; lt us assum, if you wish, that all th gos onsir this unjust an that thy all hat it. Howvr, is this th orrtion w ar making in our isussion, that what all th gos hat is impious, an what thy all lov is pious, an that what som gos lov an othrs hat is nithr or both? Is that how you now wish us to fin pity an impity? EUTHYPHRO: What prvnts us from oing so, Sorats? SOCRATES: For my part nothing, Euthyphro, but you look whthr on your part this proposal will nabl you to tah m most asily what you promis. EUTHYPHRO: I woul rtainly say that th pious is what all th gos lov, an th opposit, what all th gos hat, is th impious. SOCRATES: Thn lt us again xamin whthr that is a soun statmnt, or o w lt it pass, an if on of us, or somon ls, mrly says that somthing is so, o w apt that it is so? Or shoul w xamin what th spakr mans? EUTHYPHRO: W must xamin it, but I rtainly think that this is now a fin statmnt. SOCRATES: W shall soon know bttr whthr it is. Consir this: Is th 10 pious bing lov by th gos baus it is pious, or is it pious baus it is bing lov by th gos? EUTHYPHRO: I on t know what you man, Sorats. SOCRATES: I shall try to xplain mor larly: w spak of somthing arri an somthing arrying, of somthing l an somthing laing, of somthing sn an somthing sing, an you unrstan that ths things ar all iffrnt from on anothr an how thy iffr? EUTHYPHRO: I think I o. SOCRATES: So thr is also somthing lov an a iffrnt thing somthing loving. EUTHYPHRO: Of ours. SOCRATES: Tll m thn whthr th thing arri is a arri thing b baus it is bing arri, or for som othr rason? EUTHYPHRO: No, that is th rason. SOCRATES: An th thing l is so baus it is bing l, an th thing sn baus it is bing sn? EUTHYPHRO: Crtainly. SOCRATES: It is not bing sn baus it is a thing sn but on th ontrary it is a thing sn baus it is bing sn; nor is it baus it is somthing l that it is bing l but baus it is bing l that it is somthing l; nor is somthing bing arri baus it is somthing arri, but it is somthing arri baus it is bing arri. Is what I want to say lar, Euthyphro? I want to say this, namly, that if anything is bing hang

5 10 Euthyphro 11 or is bing afft in any way, it is not bing hang baus it is somthing hang, but rathr it is somthing hang baus it is bing hang; nor is it bing afft baus it is somthing afft, but it is somthing afft baus it is bing afft. 2 Or o you not agr? SOCRATES: Is somthing lov ithr somthing hang or somthing afft by somthing? EUTHYPHRO: Crtainly. SOCRATES: So it is in th sam as as th things just mntion; it is not bing lov by thos who lov it baus it is somthing lov, but it is somthing lov baus it is bing lov by thm? EUTHYPHRO: Nssarily. SOCRATES: What thn o w say about th pious, Euthyphro? Surly that it is bing lov by all th gos, aoring to what you say? EUTHYPHRO: Ys. SOCRATES: Is it bing lov baus it is pious, or for som othr rason? EUTHYPHRO: For no othr rason. SOCRATES: It is bing lov thn baus it is pious, but it is not pious baus it is bing lov? EUTHYPHRO: Apparntly. SOCRATES: An yt it is somthing lov an go-lov baus it is bing lov by th gos? EUTHYPHRO: Of ours. SOCRATES: Thn th go-lov is not th sam as th pious, Euthyphro, nor th pious th sam as th go-lov, as you say it is, but on iffrs from th othr. EUTHYPHRO: How so, Sorats? SOCRATES: Baus w agr that th pious is bing lov for this rason, that it is pious, but it is not pious baus it is bing lov. Is that not so? EUTHYPHRO: Ys. SOCRATES: An that th go-lov, on th othr han, is so baus it is bing lov by th gos, by th vry fat of bing lov, but it is not bing lov baus it is go-lov. EUTHYPHRO: Tru. SOCRATES: But if th go-lov an th pious wr th sam, my ar Euthyphro, thn if th pious was bing lov baus it was pious, th go-lov woul also b bing lov baus it was go-lov; an if th go-lov was go-lov baus it was bing lov by th gos, thn 2. Hr Sorats givs th gnral prinipl unr whih, h says, th spifi ass alray xamin thos of laing, arrying, an sing all fall. It is by bing hang by somthing that hangs it (.g. by arrying it somwhr) that anything is a hang thing not vi vrsa: it is not by somthing s bing a hang thing that somthing ls thn hangs it so that it oms to b bing hang (.g. by arrying it somwhr). Likwis for afftions suh as bing sn by somon: it is by bing afft by somthing that affts it that anything is an afft thing, not vi vrsa. It is not by bing an afft thing (.g., a thing sn) that somthing ls thn affts it.

6 Euthyphro 11 th pious woul also b pious baus it was bing lov by th gos. But now you s that thy ar in opposit ass as bing altogthr iffrnt from ah othr: th on is suh as to b lov baus it is bing lov, th othr is bing lov baus it is suh as to b lov. I m afrai, Euthyphro, that whn you wr ask what pity is, you i not wish to mak its natur lar to m, but you tol m an afft or quality of it, that th pious has th quality of bing lov by all th gos, but you hav not b yt tol m what th pious is. Now, if you will, o not hi things from m but tll m again from th bginning what pity is, whthr bing lov by th gos or having som othr quality w shall not quarrl about that but b kn to tll m what th pious an th impious ar. EUTHYPHRO: But Sorats, I hav no way of tlling you what I hav in min, for whatvr proposition w put forwar gos aroun an rfuss to stay put whr w stablish it. SOCRATES: Your statmnts, Euthyphro, sm to blong to my anstor, Daalus. If I wr stating thm an putting thm forwar, you woul prhaps b making fun of m an say that baus of my kinship with him my onlusions in isussion run away an will not stay whr on puts thm. As ths propositions ar yours, howvr, w n som othr jst, for thy will not stay put for you, as you say yourslf. EUTHYPHRO: I think th sam jst will o for our isussion, Sorats, for I am not th on who maks thm go roun an not rmain in th sam pla; it is you who ar th Daalus; for as far as I am onrn thy woul rmain as thy wr. SOCRATES: It looks as if I was lvrr than Daalus in using my skill, my frin, in so far as h oul only aus to mov th things h ma himslf, but I an mak othr popl s mov as wll as my own. An th smartst part of my skill is that I am lvr without wanting to b, for I woul rathr hav your statmnts to m rmain unmov than possss th walth of Tantalus as wll as th lvrnss of Daalus. But nough of this. Sin I think you ar making unnssary iffiultis, I am as agr as you ar to fin a way to tah m about pity, an o not giv up bfor you o. S whthr you think all that is pious is of nssity just. EUTHYPHRO: I think so. SOCRATES: An is thn all that is just pious? Or is all that is pious just, but not all that is just pious, but som of it is an som is not? 12 EUTHYPHRO: I o not follow what you ar saying, Sorats. SOCRATES: Yt you ar youngr than I by as muh as you ar wisr. As I say, you ar making iffiultis baus of your walth of wisom. Pull yourslf togthr, my ar sir, what I am saying is not iffiult to grasp. I am saying th opposit of what th pot sai who wrot: You o not wish to nam Zus, who ha on it, an who ma all things grow, for whr thr is far thr is also sham. 3 b 3. Author unknown.

7 12 Euthyphro 13 I isagr with th pot. Shall I tll you why? EUTHYPHRO: Plas o. SOCRATES: I o not think that whr thr is far thr is also sham, for I think that many popl who far isas an povrty an many othr suh things fl far, but ar not asham of th things thy far. Do you not think so? EUTHYPHRO: I o in. SOCRATES: But whr thr is sham thr is also far. For is thr anyon who, in fling sham an mbarrassmnt at anything, os not also at th sam tim far an ra a rputation for wiknss? EUTHYPHRO: H is rtainly afrai. SOCRATES: It is thn not right to say whr thr is far thr is also sham, but that whr thr is sham thr is also far, for far ovrs a largr ara than sham. Sham is a part of far just as o is a part of numbr, with th rsult that it is not tru that whr thr is numbr thr is also onss, but that whr thr is onss thr is also numbr. Do you follow m now? EUTHYPHRO: Surly. SOCRATES: This is th kin of thing I was asking bfor, whthr whr thr is pity thr is also justi, but whr thr is justi thr is not always pity, for th pious is a part of justi. Shall w say that, or o you think othrwis? EUTHYPHRO: No, but lik that, for what you say appars to b right. SOCRATES: S what oms nxt: if th pious is a part of th just, w must, it sms, fin out what part of th just it is. Now if you ask m somthing of what w mntion just now, suh as what part of numbr is th vn, an what numbr that is, I woul say it is th numbr that is ivisibl into two qual, not unqual, parts. Or o you not think so? SOCRATES: Try in this way to tll m what part of th just th pious is, in orr to tll Mltus not to wrong us any mor an not to init m for ungolinss, sin I hav larn from you suffiintly what is goly an pious an what is not. EUTHYPHRO: I think, Sorats, that th goly an pious is th part of th just that is onrn with th ar of th gos, whil that onrn with th ar of mn is th rmaining part of justi. SOCRATES: You sm to m to put that vry wll, but I still n a bit of information. I o not know yt what you man by ar, for you o not man th ar of th gos in th sam sns as th ar of othr things, as, for xampl, w say, on t w, that not vryon knows how to ar for horss, but th hors brr os. EUTHYPHRO: Ys, I o man it that way. SOCRATES: So hors bring is th ar of horss. EUTHYPHRO: Ys. SOCRATES: Nor os vryon know how to ar for ogs, but th huntr os.

8 Euthyphro 13 EUTHYPHRO: That is so. SOCRATES: So hunting is th ar of ogs. EUTHYPHRO: Ys. SOCRATES: An attl raising is th ar of attl. EUTHYPHRO: Quit so. SOCRATES: Whil pity an golinss is th ar of th gos, Euthyphro. Is that what you man? EUTHYPHRO: Itis. SOCRATES: Now ar in ah as has th sam fft; it aims at th goo an th bnfit of th objt ar for, as you an s that horss ar for by hors brrs ar bnfit an bom bttr. Or o you not think so? SOCRATES: So ogs ar bnfit by og bring, attl by attl raising, an so with all th othrs. Or o you think that ar aims to harm th objt of its ar? EUTHYPHRO: By Zus, no. SOCRATES: It aims to bnfit th objt of its ar? EUTHYPHRO: Of ours. SOCRATES: Is pity thn, whih is th ar of th gos, also to bnfit th gos an mak thm bttr? Woul you agr that whn you o somthing pious you mak som on of th gos bttr? EUTHYPHRO: By Zus, no. SOCRATES: Nor o I think that this is what you man far from it but that is why I ask you what you mant by th ar of gos, baus I i not bliv you mant this kin of ar. EUTHYPHRO: Quit right, Sorats, that is not th kin of ar I man. SOCRATES: Vry wll, but what kin of ar of th gos woul pity b? EUTHYPHRO: Th kin of ar, Sorats, that slavs tak of thir mastrs. SOCRATES: I unrstan. It is likly to b a kin of srvi of th gos. EUTHYPHRO: Quit so. SOCRATES: Coul you tll m to th ahivmnt of what goal srvi to otors tns? Is it not, o you think, to ahiving halth? EUTHYPHRO: I think so. SOCRATES: What about srvi to shipbuilrs? To what ahivmnt is it irt? EUTHYPHRO: Clarly, Sorats, to th builing of a ship. SOCRATES: An srvi to housbuilrs to th builing of a hous? EUTHYPHRO: Ys. SOCRATES: Tll m thn, my goo sir, to th ahivmnt of what aim os srvi to th gos tn? You obviously know sin you say that you, of all mn, hav th bst knowlg of th ivin. EUTHYPHRO: An I am tlling th truth, Sorats. SOCRATES: Tll m thn, by Zus, what is that xllnt aim that th gos ahiv, using us as thir srvants? EUTHYPHRO: Many fin things, Sorats. b

9 14 Euthyphro 14 b SOCRATES: So o gnrals, my frin. Nvrthlss you oul asily tll m thir main onrn, whih is to ahiv vitory in war, is it not? EUTHYPHRO: Of ours. SOCRATES: Th farmrs too, I think, ahiv many fin things, but th main point of thir fforts is to prou foo from th arth. EUTHYPHRO: Quit so. SOCRATES: Wll thn, how woul you sum up th many fin things that th gos ahiv? EUTHYPHRO: I tol you a short whil ago, Sorats, that it is a onsirabl task to aquir any pris knowlg of ths things, but, to put it simply, I say that if a man knows how to say an o what is plasing to th gos at prayr an sarifi, thos ar pious ations suh as prsrv both privat houss an publi affairs of stat. Th opposit of ths plasing ations ar impious an ovrturn an stroy vrything. SOCRATES: You oul tll m in far fwr wors, if you wr willing, th sum of what I ask, Euthyphro, but you ar not kn to tah m, that is lar. You wr on th point of oing so, but you turn away. If you ha givn that answr, I shoul now hav aquir from you suffiint knowlg of th natur of pity. As it is, th lovr of inquiry must follow his blov whrvr it may la him. On mor thn, what o you say that pity an th pious ar? Ar thy a knowlg of how to sarifi an pray? EUTHYPHRO: Thy ar. SOCRATES: To sarifi is to mak a gift to th gos, whras to pray is to bg from th gos? EUTHYPHRO: Dfinitly, Sorats. SOCRATES: It woul follow from this statmnt that pity woul b a knowlg of how to giv to, an bg from, th gos. EUTHYPHRO: You unrstoo what I sai vry wll, Sorats. SOCRATES: That is baus I am so sirous of your wisom, an I onntrat my min on it, so that no wor of yours may fall to th groun. But tll m, what is this srvi to th gos? You say it is to bg from thm an to giv to thm? SOCRATES: An to bg orrtly woul b to ask from thm things that w n? EUTHYPHRO: What ls? SOCRATES: An to giv orrtly is to giv thm what thy n from us, for it woul not b skillful to bring gifts to anyon that ar in no way n. EUTHYPHRO: Tru, Sorats. SOCRATES: Pity woul thn b a sort of traing skill btwn gos an mn? EUTHYPHRO: Traing ys, if you prfr to all it that. SOCRATES: I prfr nothing, unlss it is tru. But tll m, what bnfit o th gos riv from th gifts thy riv from us? What thy giv us is

10 Euthyphro 15 obvious to all. Thr is for us no goo that w o not riv from thm, 15 but how ar thy bnfit by what thy riv from us? Or o w hav suh an avantag ovr thm in th tra that w riv all our blssings from thm an thy riv nothing from us? EUTHYPHRO: Do you suppos, Sorats, that th gos ar bnfit by what thy riv from us? SOCRATES: What oul thos gifts from us to th gos b, Euthyphro? EUTHYPHRO: What ls, o you think, than honor, rvrn, an what I mntion just now, to plas thm? SOCRATES: Th pious is thn, Euthyphro, plasing to th gos, but not b bnfiial or ar to thm? EUTHYPHRO: I think it is of all things most ar to thm. SOCRATES: So th pious is on again what is ar to th gos. EUTHYPHRO: Most rtainly. SOCRATES: Whn you say this, will you b surpris if your argumnts sm to mov about insta of staying put? An will you aus m of bing Daalus who maks thm mov, though you ar yourslf muh mor skillful than Daalus an mak thm go roun in a irl? Or o you not raliz that our argumnt has mov aroun an om again to th sam pla? You surly rmmbr that arlir th pious an th golov wr shown not to b th sam but iffrnt from ah othr. Or o you not rmmbr? SOCRATES: Do you thn not raliz now that you ar saying that what is ar to th gos is th pious? Is this not th sam as th go-lov? Or is it not? EUTHYPHRO: It rtainly is. SOCRATES: Eithr w wr wrong whn w agr bfor, or, if w wr right thn, w ar wrong now. EUTHYPHRO: That sms to b so. SOCRATES: So w must invstigat again from th bginning what pity is, as I shall not willingly giv up bfor I larn this. Do not think m unworthy, but onntrat your attntion an tll th truth. For you know it, if any man os, an I must not lt you go, lik Protus, 4 bfor you tll m. If you ha no lar knowlg of pity an impity you woul nvr hav vntur to prosut your ol fathr for murr on bhalf of a srvant. For far of th gos you woul hav bn afrai to tak th risk lst you shoul not b ating rightly, an woul hav bn asham bfor mn, but now I know wll that you bliv you hav lar knowlg of pity an impity. So tll m, my goo Euthyphro, an o not hi what you think it is. EUTHYPHRO: Som othr tim, Sorats, for I am in a hurry now, an it is tim for m to go. 4. S Oyssy iv.382 ff.