MENO MENWN PLATO PLATWN

Transcription

1 PLATO MENO

2 MENO MENWN PLATO PLATWN Translat y Cathal Woos This work is lins unr th Crativ Commons Attriution-Nonommrial-No Drivativ Works 3.0 Lins. To viw a opy of this lins, visit or sn a lttr to Crativ Commons, 171 Son Strt, Suit 300, San Franiso, California, 94105, USA.

3 Introution Introution an Brif Biliography Mno (M/nwn, MEN-ohn) is on of Plato's most provoativ an fasinating ialogus. It gins in a way familiar from many othr short Platoni works. Mno, a young man from Thssaly, asks th lrly Sorats how virtu is aquir. Sorats insists that th mor asi 'What is it?' (ti/ 0sti;) qustion aout virtu must arss first. Mno, ovronfintly, givs various xampls, rquiring Sorats to larify, y mans of th xampls of shap an olor, that h wants a finition, of what all typs of virtu hav in ommon, rathr than a list. Mno vntually offrs a finition of virtu an Sorats intrrogats it, rmoving half of it an riving th othr half into a irularity. Mno is num an h likns Sorats to an ltri ray. Whr th Sorats of othr ialogus is happy nough to part from his intrloutors aftr oing thm th favor of showing thm that thy o not know what thy might hav thought thmslvs to know, th Sorats of Mno is willing to proffr som of his own opinions. In, th ialogu turns to this vry qustion, of how to pro towars knowlg. Whn Sorats attmpts to ontinu, Mno istrats him with a ilmma: how an thy sarh for somthing thy hav no knowlg of? Eithr it is known an no sarh is rquir, or it is not known an no sarh is possil. In rspons, Sorats prsnts a myth, that souls ar immortal an hav aquir all knowlg, an furthr, that this knowlg an rollt y th iniviual human ing. H thn monstrats this y hlping a slav to work out how to oul th ara of a squar. Th slav arrivs at th sam point of puzzlmnt as Mno, ut Sorats points out th iagonal, an th prolm is solv. Sorats taks this monstration to vin that this knowlg was rollt an not taught, that "Th man who os not know, thn, onrning what h os not know, has within himslf tru lifs aout what h osn't know." (85), an that th soul is immortal, sin th slav was not taught gomtry in this lif. Th ialogu now hangs irtion a son tim. Whn Sorats again movs to ontinu th invstigation, Mno says h woul rathr har what Sorats has to say aout th original qustion: How is virtu aquir? Sorats, who has n flirting with Mno throughout, again onsnts, ut only if Mno will prmit him to work on th qustion on th asis of a hypothsis, as mathmatiians o. Mno raily agrs that if i

4 Introution virtu is knowlg, it is tahal, ut whthr virtu is knowlg provs iffiult to answr. On th on han, th propr us of any goo appars to rquir th guian of knowlg, ut on th othr, if virtu wr knowlg, thr shoul tahrs an pupils of virtu, ut w o not s any of ths. On th asis of th lattr argumnt, Sorats introus a istintion twn knowlg an tru lif, stating that tru lif is as goo as knowlg whn it oms to any iniviual ation, ut that knowlg rmains fix whil tru lif is apt to wanr aroun, lik on of Daialos' moving status. Rolltion, at th n, is sai to a mhanism for making tru lifs into knowlg, though goo mn of th past an prsnt rly on tru lif, aquir y som kin of inspiration. Eah of ths topis th Sorati sarh for finitions, Sorati rossxamination (lnhus) an puzzlmnt (aporia), th otrin of rolltion (as a rspons to th prolm of how w om to know), th immortality of th soul, th prominn of mathmatis as a mol of knowlg, th mtho of hypothsis, virtu's rlationship to knowlg, th iffrn twn knowlg an tru lif has riv onsiral attntion in th sholarly litratur. Thr ar vry many artils on ths an othr topis Plato's Mno, information aout whih an foun using Googl Sholar. Thr usful anthologis ar Brown, Malolm (.) (1971) Plato's Mno, Bos-Mrrill Day, Jan M. (.) (1994) Plato's Mno In Fous, Routlg Ssonsk, Alxanr & Nol Flming (s.) (1965) Plato's Mno: Txt An Critiism, Wasworth For information aout th haratrs/prsons Sorats, Mno an Anutos, s Nails, Dra (2002) Th Popl of Plato, Haktt For information aout th lgal, ultural an mathmatial akgroun (in aition to ommntary on th Grk txt), s Bluk, R. S. (2010 [1961]) Plato's Mno, Camrig Univrsity Prss Thompson, E. Symr (1901) Th Mno of Plato, MaMillan ii

5 Introution Th following monographs ar philosophial ommntaris vot to Mno: Grimm, Laura (1962) Dfinition In Plato's Mno, Oslo Univrsity Prss Ionsu, Cristina (2007) Plato's Mno: An Intrprtation, Lxington Books Klin, Jao (1965) A Commntary On Plato's Mno, Univrsity of North Carolina Prss Sott, Domini (2006) Plato's Mno, Camrig Univrsity Prss Wiss, Roslyn (2001) Virtu in th Cav: Moral Inquiry in Plato's Mno, Oxfor Univrsity Prss Nots on th Translation Th translation was ma from th Oxfor Classial Txt of Burnt, 1922 (Platonis Opra Vol. III). Th ommntaris of Thompson (Th Mno of Plato, MaMillan, 1901), Bluk (Plato's Mno, Camrig, 2010 [1961]) an MKirahan (Plato's Mno, Bryn Mawr, 1986) wr all usful; that of Stok (Th Mno of Plato (Part II), Clarnon, 1887) muh lss so. Som stps hav n takn towars Hllni rathr than Latinat forms for propr nams. In partiular, nams ning in "-us" ar n with "-os" an intrmiat vowls hav n rtain in many ass. Hn, "Anutos" rathr than "Anytus". Th most familiar nams, suh as "Sorats" an "Mno" rtain thir traitional English splling. Marginal pag numrs (also all Stphanus pag numrs) ar as on th Oxfor Txt. At last on Stphanus numr appars on ah pag. A star (*) in th txt iniats a not. Nots an foun at th n of th ialogu. Corrtions an ommnts ar appriat, y -mail, to athalwoos at gmail ot om. A rvision of th translation will prpar whn a suffiint numr of orrtions an hangs n to ma. I woul lik to thank Colin MLarty an Gorg Watson for thir fak. RCW Virginia Bah, Virginia, USA. August 2012 iii

6 Mno 1 70a 71a Mno (M): Can you tll m, Sorats, is virtu aquir y tahing? Or not y tahing ut y training? Or nithr y training or larning ut oms to mn naturally or in som othr way? Sorats (So): Bfor now, Mno, Thssalians wr famous among th Grks, amir for thir horsmanship an thir walth, ut now, it sms, for thir wisom too, spially th Larisaians, th townsfolk of your frin Aristippos. Gorgias rought this aout among you. Whn h arriv in th ity h ma th laing mn of th Aluaai, inluing your lovr Aristippos, lovrs of his wisom, along with th othr Thssalians. An in partiular h has gottn you into this hait, of answring farlssly an granly if anyon asks a qustion, as fits somon with knowlg, as in h himslf os, whn h puts himslf forwar for any Grk who wishs to ask whatvr h wants, an rfuss no on an answr. But aroun hr, my frin Mno, th opposit is th norm, as though som shortag of wisom ha ourr, an wisom might hav migrat from our trritory to yours. If you put a qustion lik that to anyon hr, thr's no on who won't laugh an say, "My frin, you must think m to on of th fortunat fw, to know whthr virtu is aquir y tahing or in what way it oms to. I am so far from knowing whthr or not it is tahal that I on't at all know just what virtu itslf is." An in I myslf, Mno, am in th sam stat. I am impovrish along with my townsfolk in this mattr an I sol myslf for not knowing th first thing aout virtu. An whn I on't know what som thing is, how an I know what sort of thing it is? Or o you think it is possil, if somon osn't at all know who Mno is, to know whthr h is hansom or walthy or furthr, nol, or th opposits of ths? Dos it sm possil to you? M: Not to m. But o you truly not know, Sorats, what virtu is? Is this th rport w will arry hom aout you? So: Not only that, my frin, ut furthr that I also ha not mt anyon ls who knw, as it sm to m. M: What? Din't you mt Gorgias whn h was hr? So: I i. M: An you in't think h knw? So: I on't rally rmmr, Mno, an so I an't say at th momnt how h sm to m thn. May h i know an you know what h sai. So rmin m how h put it, or you yourslf spak, if you lik, sin you prsumaly hav th sam viw. M: I o. So: Wll thn lt's lav him, sin in fat h's not hr. But you yourslf, ivin Mno, what o you say virtu is? Spak an on't ny m, so that I spok a most fortunat untruth, an you an Gorgias prov knowlgal, vn though I ha sai I ha nvr mt anyon who knw. M: But it's not har to say, Sorats. To gin with, if you want th virtu of a man, it's asy. A man's virtu is this: to attn to th affairs of th ity fftivly an in th pross to nfit his frins an harm his

7 Mno 2 72a 73a nmis an mak sur that h suffrs nothing similar himslf. If you'r looking for th virtu of a woman, it's not har to xprss. It's to manag hr hom wll, prsrving hr possssions an ing oint to hr husan. An thr's a iffrnt virtu for hilrn, oth mal an fmal, an for an ol man, an, if you want, for a fr man an, if you so sir, for a slav. An thr ar so many othr virtus that thr's no prolm saying what virtu is, sin thr's a virtu for ah oupation an stag of lif with rspt to ah funtion of ah prson. An I tak th sam to hol for vi, Sorats. So: It sms I'v ha som grat goo fortun, Mno, if, whn looking for a singl virtu, I hav isovr in your possssion som kin of swarm of virtus. An in kping with that imag, of swarms, if I ask what th ssn of a was an you wr to say that thr ar many iffrnt kins, how woul you answr m if I ask, "Do you man that with this rspt to this, thir ing s, that thr ar many iffrnt kins, iffrnt from on anothr? Or o thy iffr not at all in this rspt, ut in som othr, suh as auty or siz or somthing ls of this sort?" Tll m, how woul you answr whn ask this? M: To this I woul say that thy o not iffr at all insofar as thy ar s, th on from th othr. So: An if aftr this I sai, "Now tll m this, Mno. By what o thy not iffr ut ar all alik, what o you say this is?" Prsumaly you woul hav somthing to say to m? M: I woul. So: Th sam applis to th virtus, too. Evn if thr ar many iffrnt kins, thy all hav som on form th sam, on aount of whih thy ar virtus, an whih, I suppos, a prson who is answring anothr who ask for what virtu atually is to ma lar woul rightly hav pai attntion to. Or on't you unrstan what I man? M: I think I unrstan, though I on't yt quit grasp th point of your qustion as I woul lik. So: Dos it sm this way to you only onrning virtu, Mno, that thr is on for a man, anothr for a woman, an so on, or is it th sam for halth an siz an strngth, too? Do you think thr is on halth for a man an anothr for a woman? Or is it th sam form in vry as, whrvr halth might, whthr in a man or anywhr ls at all? M: I think that with halth, at last, it's th sam in oth a man an a woman. So: An what aout siz an strngth? If a woman rally is strong, won't sh strong aus of th sam in form an aus of th sam strngth? By th wors "th sam" I man this: thr's no iffrn, with rspt to ing strngth, whthr strngth is in a man or in a woman. Or o you think thr's any iffrn? M: I on't. So: Will virtu any iffrnt, with rspt to ing virtu, whthr it's in a hil or an ol man, or in a woman or a man? M: Somhow, to m, Sorats, this no longr sms to similar to

8 Mno 3 74a thos othr ass. So: What? Din't you say that a man's virtu is to organiz a ity wll, an a woman's a hous? M: I i. So: But is it possil to manag a ity or a hous or anything at all unlss thy o so moratly an justly? M: Of ours not. So: An if thy manag justly an moratly, thy will manag y mans of justi an moration? M: Nssarily. So: So oth of thm, if thy ar going to goo, th woman an th man, n justi an moration? M: Apparntly. So: What aout a hil an an ol man? Coul thy goo if thy wr immorat an unjust? M: Of ours not. So: But morat an just insta? M: Ys. So: Thn all popl ar goo in th sam way, sin thy ar goo y possssing th sam things. M: It sms so. So: An surly thy wouln't goo in th sam way unlss thy possss th sam virtu. M: Of ours not. So: Now sin thy all hav th sam virtu, try to say an rmmr, what Gorgias says it is an you along with him. M: What ls than th aility to govrn mn, if you'r looking for a singl thing in all ass? So: That is in what I'm looking for. But is this also th sam virtu of a hil, Mno, or of a slav, for ths to al to rul th mastr, an o you think th prson who ruls woul still a slav? M: I harly think so, Sorats. So: It's not likly, st of mn. An furthr, tak a look at this, too: you say it's to al to rul. Won't w a to that "justly, an not unjustly"? M: I think so, sin justi, Sorats, is a virtu. So: Virtu, Mno, or a virtu? M: What o you man y that? So: Th sam as aout anything ls. For xampl, if you lik, rounnss, aout whih I woul say that it is a kin of shap, not simply that it is shap. I wouln't spak that way aout it for this rason, that thr ar othr shaps too. M: You ar spaking orrtly, sin I too say that not only justi ut othrs as wll ar virtus. So: What ar thy? Tll m, just as I oul tll you othr shaps, if you ask m to, thn you tll m othr virtus too. M: I think ravry is rtainly a virtu, an moration an wisom

9 Mno 4 75a an nvoln an a whol lot of othrs. So: Again, Mno, th sam thing has happn to us w hav isovr many virtus whn looking for on though in a iffrnt way than just now. Th on, whih runs through all of ths, w ar unal to fin. M: Somhow I'm not al, Sorats, in th way you'r looking for, to gt hol of on virtu ovr all, as in th othr ass. So: That's not surprising. But I am agr, if I an, to push us on, sin you unrstan, I prsum, that this point applis to vrything. If somon ask you what I sai just now, "What is shap, Mno?" an you sai that it is rounnss an h sai to you what I i, "Is rounnss shap or a shap?", you woul rtainly say that it is a shap. M: Crtainly. So: An for this rason, that thr ar othr shaps in aition? M: Ys. So: An if h wnt to ask you what kins, you woul tll him? M: I woul. So: An again, if h ask in th sam way what olor is, an you tol him that it is whitnss, an th qustionr follow this up with "Is whitnss olor or a olor?", you woul say that it is a olor, aus thr happn to othrs too? M: I woul. So: An if h rqust that you th stat othr olors, you woul tll him othrs that ar olors just as muh as whit is? M: Ys. So: An thn if, in th sam way as I pursu th argumnt, h sai "W always arriv at many things. But on't spak to m lik that. Insta, sin you all all of ths y a singl nam, an you say that non of thm is not a shap vn though thy ar opposits of on anothr, say what it is that applis just as muh to rounnss as to straightnss an whih you all "shap" whn you say that rounnss is no mor a shap than straightnss?" Or on't you say this? M: I o. So: Wll thn, whn you say this, o you maintain that rounnss is no mor roun than straight, nor straightnss straight than roun? M: Of ours not, Sorats. So: Rathr, you say rounnss is no mor a shap than straightnss, an th lattr no mor than th formr. M: That is tru. So: What is it thn that this nams, "shap"? Try to say. If you say to th on qustioning you in this way, ithr aout shap or olor, "But I on't unrstan what you want, sir, or vn know what you ar saying", h woul proaly amaz an say "Don't you unrstan that I am looking for what is th sam in all ths ass?" Or woul you hav nothing to say, Mno, if somon ask you "What is it in rounnss an straightnss an th othrs that you all "shap", th sam in all of thm?" Try to say, so that you an also gt som prati for th answr aout

10 Mno 5 76a virtu. M: No, Sorats. You tll m insta. So: You want m to inulg you? M: Vry muh. So: Will you thn willing to tll m aout virtu, too? M: I will. So: Thn I must strong. It's worth it. M: It rtainly is. So: Com thn. Lt us try to tll you what shap is. S if you will apt that it is th following. To us, shap is th only thing among xisting things that always follows olor. Is that satisfatory to you, or ar looking for somthing ls? I woul happy if you fin virtu for m in this way. M: But this is silly, Sorats! So: What o you man? M: That shap, aoring to your aount, is suppos to what always follows olor. Wll thn, what if somon wr to say that h i not know what olor is, ut was having iffiultis, just as with shap? What o you think your rspons woul hav n? So: Th truth, I think. An if th qustionr wr on of th lvr popl, fon of arguing an ontntious, I woul say to him "What was sai is min, ut if I spak inorrtly, it is your jo to xamin th finition an rfut it." If thy ar frins, as you an I ar, an want to intrrogat on anothr, thy shoul answr mor gntly an ialtially. It is mor ialtial, prhaps, not only to answr with th truth ut also in trms that th qustionr aknowlgs ar familiar. An so I will try to spak in this way to you. Tll m, thn, is thr somthing you all an "xtrmity"? I man this in th sns of "limit" an "trminal"; all of ths I tak to man th sam thing. Prhaps Proikos woul isagr, ut you, at last, no out say that somthing has "rah a limit" an is "at an xtrmity". I want to say somthing lik this, nothing fany. M: I o. An I think I unrstan what you man. So: What aout this is thr somthing you all a surfa, an somthing ls a soli, th ons from gomtry? M: Ys, I o. So: Thn from this you might now unrstan m, how I fin shap. For, of vry shap I say this: that in whih th soli ns, this is shap. To put it rifly, I woul say that shap is th limit of a soli. M: But what o you say aout olor, Sorats? So: You ar outragous, Mno! You impos th troul of answring on an ol man an arn't wiling to rollt an tll m what Gorgias says virtu is. M: Just tll m this, Sorats, an I will tll you. So: Evn somon linfol woul know, Mno, from your onvrsation, that you ar autiful an still hav lovrs. M: What?

11 Mno 6 77a So: Baus you o nothing ut giv orrs, lik spoil hilrn o, having lik tyrants for as long as thy ar young. You hav proaly tt in m th fault of ing susptil to th autiful, so I will plas you y answring. M: By all mans, o m th favor. So: Do you want m to answr in th styl of Gorgias, th way that you woul most likly to follow? M: I o, of ours. So: Don't oth of you talk aout things having rtain ffluns, as Empokls os? M: Asolutly. So: An hannls into whih an out of whih th ffluns travl? M: Crtainly. So: An som of th ffluns fit som of th hannls, whil othrs ar smallr or largr? M: That's right. So: Don't you also all somthing "sight"? M: I o. So: From this, thn, "plas tak my maning" sai Pinar. Color is an fflun from shaps, whih fits sight an is priv. M: I think you hav stat your rply rilliantly, Sorats. So: Prhaps aus it was givn in a way familiar to you. An I think you an work out from this statmnt what soun is, an smll, an th othrs of this sort. M: Crtainly. So: It's a granios rspons, Mno, an so it's mor plasing to you than th on aout shap. M: It is to m, anyway. So: An yt it isn't, son of Alximos, as I am prsua that th othr is ttr. An I think it wouln't sm so to you if you in't hav to lav for mystris, as you mntion ystray, ut oul stik aroun an initiat. M: But I woul stay, Sorats, if you will tll m lots of things lik this. So: I will spar no ffort, oth for your sak an min, to say suh things, ut I might not al to tll you many of thm. But you om on an try to kp your promis to m, to say of virtu in gnral what it is. An quit making many out of on, as thos who mak joks say whnvr somon shattrs somthing, ut kping it whol an halthy, tll m what virtu is. I'v givn you som mols, at last. M: Wll thn, it sms to m, Sorats, that virtu is, as th pot says, "to light in fin things an apal of thm". I too say that this is virtu, siring fin things an ing al to ring thm aout. So: Do you man that th prson who sirs fin things sirs goo things? M: Most of all. So: This is assuming that amongst popl, som sir a things

12 Mno 7 78a an som goo thing? You on't think that vryon, st of mn, sirs goo things? M: No, I on't. So: Thn som sir a things? M: Ys. So: Thinking th a things to goo, you man? Or also knowing that thy ar a an nonthlss siring thm? M: I think thr ar oth. So: Do you rally think somon, knowing that th a things ar a, sirs thm? M: Asolutly. So: Dsirs what, o you say? To gt thm for himslf? M: Ys, to gt thm. What ls? So: Thinking that th a things will hlp th prson who gts thm, or knowing that th a things harm th prson who has thm? M: Thr ar som who think thy ar nfiial an thr ar othrs who know that thy harm. So: Do you rally think that thy know that th a things ar a, thos who think a things ar nfiial? M: I on't liv that at all. So: So it is lar that ths popl o not sir a things, thos who ar ignorant of thm, ut sir things thy liv to goo, vn though thy ar in fat a. Ths ignorant popl, thn, who think thy ar goo, it's lar that thy sir goo things. Or not? M: Thy proaly o. So: What thn? Thos who sir a things, aoring to you, thinking that a things harm th prson who suffrs thm, o thy know that thy will harm y thm? M: Nssarily. So: But thy think anyon who is harm is misral, to th xtnt that thy ar harm? M: This is also nssary. So: Arn't misral popl unhappy? M: I, for on, think so. So: Is thr anyon who wishs to misral an unhappy? M: I on't think so, Sorats. So: Thn no on, Mno, wants a things, if thy on't want suh things. What ls is thr to ing misral than siring an possssing a things? M: It's likly what you say is tru, Sorats, an no on wants a things for himslf. So: So just now you wr saying that virtu is siring an ing apal of goo things? M: I i say that. So: An with rspt to what was sai, th siring ours in vryon, an no on is ttr than anyon ls in this rspt? M: Apparntly.

13 Mno 8 79a So: Thn it's lar that if on prson is ttr than anothr, it woul in onntion with suprior apaility. M: Crtainly. So: This, thn, it sms, is your aount of virtu, th powr to ring aout goo things. M: To m, Sorats, it sms to xatly as you now xprss it. So: Lt us xamin this too, thn, to s if you ar right. Prhaps you spok wll. To al to ring aout goo things, you say, is virtu? M: I o. So: An y "goo things" on't you man things suh as halth an proprty? M: An I man possssing gol an silvr oins, too, an politial honor an powr. So: Do you think thr ar othr goo things sis ths kins? M: No, ut I man vrything of ths kins. So: Wll thn. Virtu is th aquisition of gol an silvr oins. So says Mno, th hritary gust-frin of th Grat King. Do you a "justly" or "piously" to this aquisition, Mno, or os it mak no iffrn to you? If somon aquirs ths things unjustly, o you similarly all this virtu? M: Crtainly not, Sorats. So: But vi, insta? M: Asolutly. So: Thn w must, it sms, a justi or moration or pity to this aquisition, or som othr part of virtu. If w on't, it won't virtu, vn if it is th aquisition of goo things. M: How oul thr virtu without ths? So: So not aquiring gol an silvr, whnvr it wouln't just, whthr for onslf or somon ls, isn't this lak of aquisition virtu, also? M: It sms so. So: Thn virtu woul th provision of goo things no mor than th non-provision, ut, as sms likly, virtu will whatvr is on with justi, an anything without all of ths kins of thing is vi. M: I think it must as you stat. So: An ah of ths w sai a littl whil ago is a part of virtu, justi an moration an vrything lik this? M: Ys. So: An so you ar toying with m, Mno! M: What? So: Baus just now I gg you not to shattr or ut up virtu, an gav you mols of how you shoul answr, ut you tak no h an tll m that virtu is to al to ring aout goo things with justi, ut this, you say, is a part of justi? M: I o. So: It follows from what you agr to that oing what on os with som part of virtu is virtu, sin justi, you say, is a part of virtu, as ar

14 Mno 9 80a ah of thm. Thn why o I say this? Baus I gg you to stat virtu as a whol ut you ar a long way from saying what it is. You say that vry ation is virtu, so long as it is on with a part of virtu, as though you ha tol m th whol of virtu an I rogniz it now, vn as you rak it up into parts. I think w n for you to answr th sam qustion ovr again from th start, my ar Mno, 'What is virtu?', if vry ation on with a part of virtu is virtu. For this is what a prson mans, who says this, that vry ation on with justi is virtu. Don't you think th sam qustion ns answring, or o you think that somon knows what a part of virtu is without knowing virtu itslf? M: I on't think so, anyway. So: An furthrmor, if you rmmr, whn I answr you just now aout shap, w thrw out th kin of answr whih attmpts to answr in trms of what is still ing sought an not yt agr upon. M: An w wr right to throw it out, Sorats. So: So on't think, you st of mn, still looking for what virtu as a whol is, that y answring in trms of its parts that you will larify what it is, nor anything ls y talking in this way, ut rathr that thr's a n to ask th sam qustion again, what is virtu aout whih you say what you say? Or o you think I'm talking nonsns? M: I think what you say is right. So: Thn answr again from th ginning. What o you say virtu to, oth you an your frin? M: Sorats, I har for I vn mt you that you ar always prplx an making othrs prplx. An now, as it sms to m, you ar withing an flattring m an ing totally nhanting, so that I hav om ompltly prplx. You sm to m, if it is possil to jok a littl, to, in apparan an in vry way, xatly lik th roa ltri ray* of th sa, for it too nums anyon who approahs an oms in ontat with it, an now you sm to hav put m in somthing lik th sam stat. For truly I am num, oth my spirit an my tongu, an I o not know what rspons I oul giv you. An vn though I hav on ountlss oasions sai many things to many popl aout virtu, an i so wll, as it sm to m, anyway, now I annot say at all what it is. I think you ar wis not to sail away from hr or go aroa, aus if you at in this way as a forignr in anothr ity, you woul proaly arrst for sorry. So: You'r a rasal, Mno, an you narly iv m. M: Why, prisly? So: I know th rason you rw an imag of m. M: Why, o you think? So: So that I will raw on of you in rturn. I know this aout all hansom mn, that thy njoy imags ing ma of thm, aus it nfits thm, I think aus th imags of hansom mn ar also hansom. But I won't raw an imag of you in rturn. If th ltri ray maks othrs num y ing itslf num, I am lik

15 Mno 10 81a it; if not, I am not. I o not mak othrs prplx y ing without outs myslf; rathr, I am uttrly prplx an in this way I mak othrs prplx. An now, onrning virtu, I on't know what it is, an you proaly knw prviously, until I got hol of you an now you'r rtainly lik somon who osn't know. Nonthlss, I want to invstigat it with you an sarh out what on arth it is. M: How will you sarh for it, Sorats, whn you hav no ia what it is? What kin of thing from among thos you ar ignorant of will you st for yourslf to look for? An vn if you happn xatly upon it, how woul you rogniz that this is what you in't know? So: I unrstan what you want to say, Mno. Do you s how sophistial this argumnt is that you'r ragging up, that a prson annot sarh ithr for what h knows or what h osn't know? For h annot sarh for what h knows h knows it, an thr is no n to sarh for suh a thing nor for what h osn't know sin h osn't know what h's sarhing for. M: Wll, osn't this argumnt sm to a finly stat, Sorats? So: Not to m. M: Can you say how? So: I an, sin I hav har wis mn an womn, aout ivin affairs M: Uttring what sph? So: A tru an autiful on, it sms to m. M: What is it, an who is saying it? So: Thos saying it ar som of th prists an pristsss whos usinss it is to al to giv an aount of thir pratis. An Pinar says it too an many othrs of th pots, thos who ar ivinly inspir. An what thy say is th following; s if you think thy spak th truth. Thy say that th soul of man is immortal. At on tim it oms to an n whih popl all ying an at anothr it is rorn, ut it is nvr stroy an so, on must liv lif as piously as possil, sin to thos from whom Prsphon apts ompnsation for hr anint grif, To th sunlight aov, in th ninth yar, thir Souls sh again rturns. From thm om nol kings, Inrasing in strngth an wisom, mn oth swift an grat, An for th rst of tim all hallow hros y mn. Whn th soul is immortal an has n orn many tims, an has sn th things hr an th things in Has vrything, in fat thr is nothing that it has not larn, an so it's no surpris that it an rollt aout virtu an othr things that it knw for. An aus all of natur is of th sam kin an th soul has larn vrything, nothing prvnts a soul that has rollt just on thing whih popl all larning from risovring vrything for itslf, so long as it is rav an osn't giv up

16 Mno 11 82a th sarh. For sarhing an larning ar, as a whol, rolltion. Thrfor, w must not prsua y this sophistial aount, sin that on woul mak us lazy an is plasant for faint-hart mn to har, whras this on maks thm nrgti an agr to sarh. Bliving this on to tru, I want to sarh with you for what virtu is. M: Ys, Sorats. But what o you man y this, that w o not larn an what is all larning is rolltion? Can you tah m that this is so? So: As I was saying a momnt ago, Mno, you ar a rasal, an now you ar asking if I an tah you what I say is not tahing ut rolltion, so that I will immiatly sn to ontrait myslf! M: By Zus, no, Sorats. I in't say it for that rason, ut out of hait. But if you an somhow show m that what you say is tru, show m. So: Although it's not asy, nonthlss I want to xrt myslf for your sak. Summon on of ths many attnants of yours for m, whihvr you lik, so that I an prov it to you in his as. M: Crtainly. Stp forwar hr. So: Now, is h Grk an spaks Grk? M: Asolutly. H was orn in th hous. So: Thn pay los attntion to s whih you think is happning, whthr h is rollting or is larning from m. M: I rtainly will. So: Tll m, oy, o you know that a squar is lik this? Slav: I o. So: An so a squar has ths lins, four of thm, all qual? Slav: Of ours. So: An ths ons going through th ntr ar also qual? Slav: Ys. So: An so thr woul largr an smallr vrsions of this ara? Slav: Crtainly. So: Now, if this si wr two ft an this si two ft also, how many ft woul th whol? Look at it lik this: if this on wr two ft ut this on only on foot, wouln't th ara hav to two ft takn on? Slav: Ys. So: Whn this on is also two ft, thr woul twi two? Slav: Thr woul. So: An ara of twi two ft? Slav: Ys. So: How muh is twi two ft? Calulat an tll m. Slav: Four, Sorats. So: Couln't thr on iffrnt from this, oul, ut of th sam kin, with all th lins qual, as in that on? Slav: Ys. So: An how many ft in ara? Slav: Eight. So: Com thn, try to tll m how long ah lin of this on will.

17 Mno 12 83a In that on, it's two, ut what aout in that oul on? Slav: It's larly oul, Sorats. So: You s, Mno, that I am not tahing anything, ut put vrything as a qustion. H now livs h knows what sort of lin th ight ft ara oms from. Or on't you think so? M: I o. So: An os h know? M: Not at all. So: H livs it oms from th oul? M: Ys. So: Osrv him rollting in squn, as on ought to rollt. Tll m, you say th oul ara oms to from th oul lin? I man this kin, not on with this on long an this on short, ut qual all aroun lik this on, ut oul its siz, that is, ight ft. S if you still think it oms from th oul. Slav: I o. So: Wouln't this om oul itslf if w a anothr of th sam lngth hr? Slav: Of ours. So: From this, you say, thr will an ight foot ara, if thr ar four of th sam lngth? Slav: Ys. So: Lt us us it to raw four qual lins. Isn't this xatly what you say th ight foot ara is? Slav: Asolutly. So: Within this thr ar ths four, ah of whih is qual to this four foot ara? Slav: Ys. So: What ara is this? Isn't it four tims as larg? Slav: Ys, y Zus. So: It is oul, th on four tims as larg? Slav: No, y Zus. So: But how many tims largr is it? Slav: Four tims. So: Thn th ara that oms form th oul lin, oy, is not oul ut four tims th ara. Slav: You ar right. So: Sin four tims four is sixtn, is it not? Slav: Ys. So: Th ight foot ara oms from what lin? Bas on this lin, isn't it four tims th siz? Slav: So I say. So: But th quartr ara is as on this on hr, half its siz? Slav: Ys. So: Wll thn. Th ight foot ara is oul this on, an half that

18 Mno 13 84a on? Slav: Ys. So: Won't it om from a lin longr than this, ut shortr than that? Or not? Slav: It sms so to m. So: Wll sai; answr as it sms to you. Now tll m, was this lin not two ft long, an that on four? Slav: Ys. So: So th ight foot ara must om from a lin longr than two ft ut lss than four? Slav: It must. So: Thn try to say how long you say it is. Slav: Thr ft. So: If it rally wr thr ft, w will tak half as muh again of this on an it will thr ft? For this is two an this is on? An from hr, this is two an this is on. An th ara you mntion oms into ing. Slav: Ys. So: So if this si is thr an this on also thr, th whol ara is thr tims thr? Slav: It sms so. So: Thr tims thr ar how many ft? Slav: Nin. So: But w n th oul ara to how many ft? Slav: Eight. So: Thn th ight foot ara rtainly osn't om from th thr foot lin. Slav: Not at all. So: But from what lngth? Try to tll us larly. An if you o not want to alulat it, point out th lngth insta. Slav: By Zus, Sorats, I hav no ia. So: Consir again, Mno, as h pros in th rolltion, what point is h now at? Th first tim, h i not know what th lin of th ight foot ara is, just lik h still osn't know now. But whras h thought thn that h i know it, an answr onfintly lik somon who knows, an i not think himslf in any iffiulty, now h atually thinks h is in troul, h osn't know an likwis os not think h knows. M: That's tru. So: Is h now in a ttr position onrning th thing h os not know? M: I think that's also tru. So: Putting him in iffiultis an numing him, lik th ltri ray, is thr any harm in it? M: I on't think so. So: In fat, it's likly w hav on him a goo, with rgar to fining out how things ar. For now h osn't know an woul gla to know, whras for, h thought it woul asy to spak wll in front of

19 Mno 14 85a many popl an on many oasions aout th oul ara, how it must hav a lin oul in lngth. M: Proaly. So: Do you think that for h woul try to sarh for or unrstan what h thinks h knows ut osn't know, until h fll into iffiulty an raliz h osn't know, an yarn to know? M: I on't think so, Sorats. So: H has nfitt from oming num? M: I think so. So: Osrv, thn, how, from this prplxity, h will isovr it aftr all, sarhing along with m, an I oing nothing xpt posing qustions an not tahing. B on th lookout for m tahing an splling it out for him, an not asking for his opinions. Tll m: w hav hr our four foot ara? Do you unrstan? Slav: I o. So: An w an a anothr on to it, this on, qual? Slav: Ys. So: An this thir on, qual to ah of ths? Slav: Ys. So: An w an fill in this spa hr in th ornr? Slav: Of ours. So: So that thr ar prisly ths four qual aras? Slav: Ys. So: Wll thn, this whol thing woul how many tims this on? Slav: Four tims. So: But w n to prou oul. Or on't you rmmr? Slav: Of ours. So: Now isn't thr this sam lin, going from ornr to ornr, utting ah of ths aras in two? Slav: Ys. So: So thr will ths four qual lins, nlosing this ara? Slav: Thr will. So: Look, thn. How larg is this ara? Slav: I on't unrstan. So: Thr ar four aras, an ah lin has ivi ah thm in half intrnally? Or not? Slav: Ys. So: An how many ft ar in this ara? Slav: Four. So: An how many in this on? Slav: Two. So: An four is how many tims two?

20 Mno 15 86a Slav: Doul. So: So this, thn, woul how many ft? Slav: Eight. So: Coming from what lin? Slav: From this on. So: From th on strthing from ornr to ornr of th four foot ara? Slav: Ys. So: Th xprts all this th iagonal. An so if w nam this th iagonal, it woul from th iagonal, aoring to you, slav of Mno, that th oul ara oms into ing. Slav: Exatly so, Sorats. So: What o you think, Mno? Is thr any answr that h gav that was not his own lif? M: No, thy wr his own. So: Evn though h i not know, as w wr saying a littl arlir. M: You ar right. So: Ths lifs, thn, wr within him. Or not? M: Ys. So: Th man who os not know, thn, onrning what h os not know, has within himslf tru lifs aout what h osn't know? M: Apparntly. So: At prsnt, ths lifs ar lik a ram to him, having just now n stirr up. But if somon will put ths qustions to him on many oasions an in many ways, you know that his knowlg of ths mattrs will vntually as aurat as anyon's. M: It's likly. So: Won't h know it not y anyon tahing ut through qustioning an him rgaining th knowlg from within himslf? M: Ys. So: An isn't him rgaining th knowlg from within himslf rolltion? M: Asolutly. So: Th knowlg h now has, h ithr gain at som tim or always ha it? M: Ys. So: If h always ha it, h was always knowing, an if h gain it at som tim, h woul not hav aquir it in his prsnt lif, at any rat. Or has somon taught him gomtry? Baus h will o th sam thing for all gomtry, an all othr larning. Is thr somon who has taught him all ths? I suppos you woul on to know, spially sin h was orn an rais in your houshol. M: An I know that no on vr gav him instrution. So: But os h hav ths lifs, or not? M: It sms nssary, Sorats. So: If h in't aquir thm in this lif, thn, th following oms immiatly ovious, that h ha an larn thm at som othr tim.

21 Mno 16 87a M: Apparntly. So: An this is th tim whn h was not a human? M: Ys. So: If thr ar tru lifs within him uring th tim whn h oth is an is not a human ing, whih ah om knowlg whn stirr up y qustioning, thn won't his soul in a stat of having larn throughout all tim? Sin it's lar that throughout all tim h was or was not a human? M: Apparntly. So: Thn, If w always possss th truth aout things in th soul, th soul woul immortal, so that th prson who osn't happn to hav knowlg now, that is, who hasn't rollt, shoul rav an try to sarh for it an rollt? M: Your wors sm goo to m, Sorats, somhow or othr. So: An to m too, Mno. I wouln't strongly insist on th othr aspts of th argumnt, ut that w woul om ttr mn an ravr an lss lazy if w liv it is nssary to sarh for what on osn't know, rathr than if w think that w an't isovr what w on't know an shoul not look for it, for this I will fight strongly, if I am al, in oth wor an. M: Thr again, your wors sms goo to m, Sorats. So: Sin w agr that on must inquir into what on osn't know, o you want us to try to look togthr for what virtu is? M: Crtainly. Although, of ours, I woul most plas to look into an har aout what I ask at th start, whthr w shoul pursu virtu as somthing tahal, or natural, or ourring in mn in som othr way. So: If I wr in harg, Mno, not only of myslf ut of you too, w wouln't xamin whthr virtu is tahal or not tahal until w ha isovr th main point, what it is. But sin you arn't vn trying to ontrol yourslf, so that you woul in fat fr, ut attmpt to rul m an tak harg, I will agr with you What ls an I o? So it sms w must invstigat what kin of thing it is whn w on't yt know what it is. But if nothing ls, at last loosn your ontrol a littl it for m an agr to xamin whthr it is aquir y tahing or howvr it is aquir on th asis of a hypothsis. By "on th asis of a hypothsis" I man in th way gomtrs oftn xamin things, whnvr somon asks thm somthing, suh as whthr a rtain ara an insri within a irl in th shap of a triangl, an on of thm might say "I on't yt know if it an, ut I think I hav a sort of hypothsis that's usful for suh a prolm: if this ara, whn appli to th givn lin, is th kin that lavs hin an ara lik this on whih was strth out, I think on thing follows, or anothr, if this is impossil. So, y hypothsizing, I am willing to tll you what follows onrning its insription within th irl, whthr it is possil or not." It's th sam way with virtu, sin w on't know what it is or what it's lik, lt's xamin whthr it is tahal or not tahal on th asis of

22 Mno 17 88a a hypothsis, an say th following, "If virtu wr what kin of thing, of th things rlat to th soul, woul it thn tahal or not tahal? First of all, if it is iffrnt from, or som sort of, knowlg, is it aquir y tahing or not or, as w put it just now, y rolltion; it maks no iffrn to us what nam w us. Is it tahal? Or is it lar to vryon, that a man an taught nothing xpt knowlg? M: I think so. So: Thn, if virtu is a typ of knowlg, it woul larly aquir y tahing. M: Of ours. So: W finish that quikly, that if it is of on kin, it's tahal, ut not, if it's of anothr. M: Crtainly. So: Aftr this, w shoul proaly invstigat whthr virtu is knowlg or of a iffrnt kin than what knowlg is. M: That os sm to what shoul xamin nxt. So: What thn? Don't w say that this, virtu, is goo? Dos that hypothsis still hol for us, that it is goo? M: Asolutly. So: If thr is also somthing ls that is goo an istint from knowlg, prhaps virtu wouln't a kin of knowlg. But if nothing is goo that knowlg os not mra, w woul right to suspt that it is som kin of knowlg. M: That's right. So: An nxt, y virtu w ar goo? M: Ys. So: An if goo, w ar nfiial? Sin anything goo is nfiial. Or not? M: Ys. So: Virtu also is nfiial, thn? M: Nssarily, as on what has n agr. So: Lt's xamin thn, taking ah on in turn, what kins of things nfit us: halth, w say, an strngth, an auty an proprty, of ours. W say that ths an things lik thm ar nfiial. Or not? M: Ys. So: But w say that ths sam things somtims also ar harmful. Or woul you say somthing iffrnt from this? M: No, xatly that. So: Do you s, thn, what it is that guis ah of ths whn it nfits us, an what whn it harms us? Isn't it tru that whn orrtly us, it nfits, ut whn not, it harms? M: Crtainly. So: In aition, thn, lt us xamin th things rlat to th soul. Thr is somthing you all moration an justi an ravry an intllign an mmory an magnanimity an vry of this sort? M: Thr is. So: Examin, thn, th ons of ths that sm to you not to

23 Mno 18 89a knowlg ut iffrnt from knowlg, whthr thy on't somtims harm an somtims nfit? Bravry, for xampl, whn ravry is without wisom an is a kin of aring. Isn't it that whnvr a man is aring without unrstaning, h is harm, ut with unrstaning h is nfitt? M: Ys. So: An similarly for moration an intllign: whn aquir y larning an isiplin thy ar nfiial, ut without unrstaning, harmful? M: Vry muh so. So: In sum, all of th soul's navors an ats of nuran rsult in happinss whn gui y wisom, ut in th opposit whn thy ar without thought? M: It's likly. So: If virtu is on of th things in th soul an is nssarily nfiial to it, it must wisom, sin all of ths things of th soul ar in thmslvs nithr nfiial nor harmful, ut om nfiial or harmful whn aompani y wisom or foolishnss. Aoring to this aount, sin virtu is nfiial, it must a kin of wisom. M: I think so. So: An th othr things too that w wr just now talking aout, walth an suh lik, that ar somtims goo an somtims harmful, in th way that wisom ma th goos of th soul nfiial y guiing th rst of th soul, in th sam way, osn't th soul mak thm nfiial y using an guiing thm orrtly, ut if inorrtly, harmful? M: Crtainly. So: Th soul with wisom guis orrtly, whil th on without misss th mark? M: That's orrt. So: An on't w say th sam in vry as, all th othr goos a prson has pn upon th soul, an th goos of th soul itslf pn upon wisom, if thy ar going to goo. By this rasoning, th nfiial woul wisom. An o w say virtu is nfiial? M: Crtainly. So: Do w say virtu is wisom, ithr th whol or som part of it? M: What you'v sai sms wll sai to m, Sorats. So: Thn if this is how things ar, goo mn woul not so y natur? M: I think not. So: If thy wr, I suppos th following woul tru: if goo mn wr goo y natur, thr woul no out som popl who knw whih of th young popl ha goo naturs, an w woul hav takn th ons so signat an guar thm in th trasury, saling thm up mor arfully than gol, so that no on woul orrupt thm an thy woul usful to th ity whn thy om of ag. M: That's quit likly, Sorats. So: But sin th goo things ar not goo y natur, ar thy so y

24 Mno 19 90a larning? M: I think it must, now. An larly, Sorats, aoring to th hypothsis, that virtu is knowlg, it's aquir y tahing. So: Prhaps, y Zus. But may w i not proprly agr to this. M: A momnt ago it sm fin to m. So: But it ns to sm finly stat not just a momnt ago ut in th prsnt an in th futur, if any of it is going to soun. M: But why? What o you s that maks you issatisfi with it an skptial that virtu is not knowlg? So: I will tll you, Mno. That it is tahal if it is knowlg, I on't tak that ak or think it wasn't wll sai, ut rathr, that it is knowlg. S if my out sms rasonal to you. Tll m this, if somthing is tahal, not just virtu, wouln't thr hav to tahrs an larnrs of it? M: I think so. So: An again, onvrsly, if thr ar nithr tahrs of it nor larnrs, w woul right to infr that it is not aquir y tahing? M: That's tru. But on't you think thr ar tahrs of virtu? So: I oftn invstigat whthr anyon is a tahr of it, oing vrything I an ut not al to fin any. In, I sarh with th oopration of many popl, an spially with thos I think ar most xprin in th mattr. An now, prftly for us, Anutos* hr has sat own, with whom w an shar th sarh. It woul fitting for us to mak him a partnr, aus, first, Anutos hr ha a fathr, Anthmion, oth walthy an wis, who am walthy not y aint or aus of a gift, lik Ismnias th Than who rntly aquir Polukrats' fortun. Rathr, h aquir it y his own wisom an iation, an sis, h i not sm to an arrogant itizn or puff up an offnsiv, ut a nt an orrly man, an furthr, th majority of th Athnians liv h rar an uat this man wll, sin thy ar lting him to th highst offis. It is propr to invstigat with somon lik this whthr thr ar or ar not tahrs of virtu, an who thy ar. So join th sarh with us, Anutos, myslf an your gust-frin* Mno hr, rlat to who might tahrs in this mattr. Look at it this way: if w want Mno to om a goo otor, to what tahrs woul w sn him? Woul it not to th otors? Anutos (An): Crtainly. So: An what if w want him to om a goo shomakr, to th shomakrs? An: Ys. So: An othrs similarly? An: Crtainly. So: Rpat that again for m. Sning him to th otors, w say, woul a goo pla to sn him, wanting him to om a otor. Whn w say this, ar w saying that w woul snsil to sn him to ths popl, thos who lay laim to th raft rathr than thos who on't, an who harg fs for this vry thing, laring thmslvs to tahrs of

25 Mno 20 91a 92a anyon who wants to om an larn? Thinking along ths lins, w woul assign him proprly? An: Ys. So: An also with flut-playing an th othrs of th sam kin? If w want to mak somon a flut-playr it woul vry stupi to unwilling to sn him to thos who promis to tah him th raft an who harg a f, ut to aus prolms for othrs y sking to larn from thos who nithr put thmslvs forwar as tahrs nor hav any stunts in th sujt whih w want him, th on w woul sn, to larn. Dosn't that sm vry irrational to you? An: Ys, y Zus, it os, an ignorant in aition. So: Wll sai. An now you an lirat along with m aout your gust-frin* Mno hr. For h has n tlling m a long tim, Anutos, that h sirs th wisom an virtu y whih mn manag houshols an itis, an tak ar of thir parnts, an know how to riv an sn off itizns an forignrs in th mannr worthy of a goo man. Think aout to whom w woul right to sn him, with rspt to this virtu. Or is it lar, aoring to our rnt prinipl, that it is to thos who promis to tahrs of virtu an lar thmslvs availal to any Grk who wants to larn, an who st a f an ollt it? An: An who o you say ths ar, Sorats? So: You know vry wll that ths ar th mn popl all sophists. An: By Hrals! Quit, Sorats! Lt non of my houshol or frins, whthr Athnian or forignr, siz y th kin of manss that woul sn thm to ruin y ths popl, sin thy ar oviously th ruin an orruption of thos thy assoiat with. So: How o you man, Anutos? Ar thy, alon of thos who laim to know how to o som nfit, so iffrnt from th othrs that thy, lik th othrs, o not nfit whatvr on might ntrust to thm, ut also, on th ontrary, orrupt it? An think thy ar worthy of opnly ollting mony for this? I on't know if I an liv you. I know of a rtain man, Protagoras, who ma mor mony from this wisom than Phiias, who prou suh notialy fin works, an tn othr sulptors sis. Surly what you say is outragous, if, on th on han, thos who rpair ol sanals an mn loaks woul foun out within a month if thy rturn th sanals an loaks in a wors stat than thy riv thm, an if thy i this, woul quikly i of hungr, whil Protagoras, on th othr, avois ttion y th whol of Gr as h orrupts his assoiats an sns thm away wors than whn h riv thm, an for forty yars sin I liv h i at narly svnty an was forty yars at his work for all that tim, vn in th prsnt ay, h lost non of his rputation, an not just Protagoras ut a whol lot of othrs too, som orn for him an som who ar still aliv now. Shoul w rally say, thn, aoring to what you sai, that thy swinl an ruin th young knowingly? Or o thy iv vn thmslvs an in this way w will jug thm to ma, whom som popl say to th wisst of mn?

26 Mno 21 93a An: Thy ar far from ing ma, Sorats. Muh mor so ar th young mn who giv thm mony, an still mor thos who ntrust thm to thm, thir rlativs, an most spially of all, th itis, who allow thm to ntr an on't riv thm away, whthr it's a forignr who tris to o somthing lik this or a itizn. So: Di som on of th sophists wrong you, Anutos, or why ar you so harsh towars thm? An: By Zus, I hav nvr assoiat with any on of thm, nor woul I allow anyon I know to o so! So: You hav no xprin whatsovr with ths mn? M: May it always so! So: But how, thn, you strang fllow, woul you know aout th mattr, whthr thr's anything goo or a in it, if you ha no xprin of it at all? An: Easily! I know who thy ar anyway, whthr I hav xprin of thm or not. So: Prhaps you ar a sr, Anutos, sin, from what you yourslf say, I woul puzzl how ls you woul know aout thm. But, in fat, w won't look into who ths popl ar, who Mno woul go to an om wors thy ar, if you wish, th sophists ut tll us th popl, an o your family frin hr a goo y tlling him, whom h shoul go to, in a ity so larg as this, to gain, worthy of th titl, th virtu I was just now sriing. An: Why on't you tll him? So: But I sai whom I thought wr tahrs of it, though it turns out I was saying nothing, aoring to you. An prhaps you ar saying somthing. But you tak your turn an tll him whih of th Athnians h might go to. Giv th nam of anyon you lik. An: Why shoul h har th nam of any on prson? No mattr what Athnian gntlman h mts, thr is not on of thm who wouln't improv him mor than th sophists, if h is willing to prsua. So: Di ths gntlmn om so spontanously, larning from no on, ut ar nonthlss al to tah othrs ths things thy in't larn? An: I shoul think that thy too larn from thir prssors, who wr also gntlmn. Or on't you think thr ar many goo mn in this ity? So: I think, Anutos, that thr ar popl hr goo at puli affairs, an what is mor, just as many as thr wr in th past. But thy wr not goo tahrs of thir virtu, wr thy? This happns to th fous of our argumnt, not whthr thr ar goo mn hr or not, an not whthr thr wr in past. Insta, w'v n xamining for a whil whthr virtu is tahal. This is what w'r looking for whn w'r invstigating whthr th goo mn, oth now an in th past, also knw how to pass on th virtu that ma thm goo, or whthr this an't pass on to a man or apt y on man from anothr. This is what Mno an I wr invstigating all along. Look at it this way, givn what you yourslf say, woul you not say

27 Mno 22 94a that Thmistokls was a goo man? An: I woul. Th st of all. So: An so a goo tahr, too. If anyon ls was a tahr of his own virtu, you woul say h was? An: I liv so, if h want to, anyway. So: But o you liv that h i not want various othrs to om gntlmn, spially his own son, surly? Or o you think h rfus him this an purposfully i not pass on th virtu whih ma him goo? Or hav you not har that Thmistokls taught his son Klophantos to a goo horsman? H oul stay staning upright on horss an throw a javlin from th horss upright, an prform many othr amazing fats that h ha him taught an ma skill in, any that wr possss y goo tahrs. Or havn't you har this from your lrs? An: I hav. So: So no on oul allg that his son's natur was a. An: Prsumaly not. So: But thn what? That Klophantos, son of Thmistokls, am a goo an wis man, with rspt to th things that his fathr was, hav you vr har anyon, young or ol, say that? An: Crtainly not. So: But ar w thn to liv that h i want to tah his son ths things, ut to mak him no ttr than his nighors with rspt to th wisom in whih h himslf was skill, if virtu wr in tahal? An: Prsumaly not, y Zus. So: Wll, thr you hav th kin of tahr of virtu h was, th man you affirm was on of th st in th past. But lt's look at anothr on, Aristis, son of Lusimahos. Or on't you agr that h was goo? An: I o, asolutly. So: This man too gav his son Lusimahos th finst uation in Athns, with rspt to all th things that ar th provin of goo tahrs, ut o you think h was ma a ttr man than anyon ls? You assoiat with him, I suppos, an s what kin of man h is. Or tak Prikls, if you lik, a man of suh magnifint wisom. You know that h rais two sons, Paralos an Xanthippos? An: I o. So: An thy, as I'm sur you know, h taught to horsmn son to no on in Athns, an in musi an athltis an anything ls that thr's a art of, h rought thm up to son to non. An i h not want to mak thm goo mn? I think h want to, ut may it's not tahal. An so that you on't think that it was only a fw an th last al Athnians who wr unal to su in this navor, rmmr that Thukuis also rais two sons, Mlsias an Stphanos, an taught thm wll in various things an in patriular thy wrstl st of all th Athnians. H pla on with Xanthias an th othr with Euoros. Ths ha a rputation as th st wrstlrs of th tim. Or on't you rmmr? An: So I'v har.