ONTARIO COURT OF JUSTICE HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN. - and - SONIA ATIKIAN and CHACHADOUR ATIKIAN

Transcription

1 I E T W E E N: ONTARIO COURT OF JUSTICE,. 1 HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN - and - SONIA ATIKIAN and CHACHADOUR ATIKIAN efoe THE HONOURALE MADAM JUSTICE GERMAN with a juy, at the Metopolitan Toonto cout house; commencing at :00 am., on June 28, J - EVIDENCE OF M - f J ( k AG 88 (121119) A P P E A R A N C E S: Ms. N. Dawson D. Mccombs, Esq., E.. Minden, Esq., A. Coope, Q.C., s. Skuka, Esq., fo the Cown fo the accused Sonia Atikian fo the accused Khachadou Atikian

2 . ( : l l AG 1 88 (12169) JUNE 28, 1991 MR. McCOMS: Thank you, You Honou. You Honou, the next witness is Miss M. M, Swon EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF Y MR. McCOMS: Q. Miss, the juos will emembe that you wee in cout ealie at the beginning of this case when M. Hanswille was testifying. You have met M. Hanswille befoe? Q. Fist of all, befoe we deal with M. Hanswille, I would like to lean a little bit about you, please. Now, can you tell me how old you ae? A. I'm thity-five yeas old. Q. And you wee bon whee? A. In Toonto. Q. All ight. And you family lived hee? Q. Do you have siblings, bothes and sistes?

3 c c '... c c L :. AG 1 8 (12J , in-chf. A. I have a bothe. Q. And you paents, wee they bon in Canada? A. No, they wee bon in Italy. Q. All ight. Now, you went to school hee in Toonto? Q. And just tell us, whee did you go to high school? A. I went to high school in King City and then to Thonhill. Q. Then to Thonhill? A. Thonhill. Q. And did you go to univesity? A. I went to u of T. Q. Univesity of Toonto? A. Yes, Univesity of Toonto. Q. What did you study thee? A. I studied political science and philosophy, and I eceived a achelo of Ats. Q. achelo of Ats degee in political science? A. And philosophy. Thee was no majo

4 c i, in-chf. t., L AG 1 8 (12189) but those wee my Q. What yea did you gaduate fom the Univesity of Toonto? A. I believe it was in Q. Now, I gathe that afte you gaduation fom univesity that you woked outside of Toonto is that ight? A. Yes, I did, mm-hmm. Q. Could you tell us a little bit about you wok histoy pio to you etuning to school? A. I woked in the Yukon, Yukon Teitoy, Dawson City, fo I think it was about thee summes shotly afte my univesity degee. Would you like to know the details? Q. That's all ight A. And then I woked in Calgay fo appoximately two and a half, thee yeas, and thee I was in the concete foming business. Q. And you knew something about the concete foming business fo what eason? A. My fathe had been in constuction all of his life. Q. Now, at the time that you wee in

5 : l c 'l.,. 1 AG 88 (12189) , in-chf. Calgay, you paents wee both living in Toonto? Q. And I gathe that in the -- I guess it was in the mid-70's that you mothe had had some health poblems? please? suffeed pneumatic feve. Q. Could you tell us about that, A. Well, when she was young she This damaged the valves of he heat and she had a lot of weaknesses, and the doctos felt that this would be emedied by eplacing a valve, which they did in complications fan that opeation. She suffeed a few She had a mino stoke duing o shotly afte the opeation, and she was somewhat incapacitated fo the next five yeas, at which time they decided to opeate to eplace anothe valve. And duing the opeation -- Q. If I could just stop you thee, please. They made a decision to pefom sugey on you mothe a second time?

6 c L 6, in-chf. Q. That was in what yea? A. That was in Q. All ight. And at that time wee you still in Calgay, o had you etuned to Toonto? A. I was still in Calgay. I etuned late that yea. Q. At the time of you mothe's sugey, wee you in Calgay in 1983? i l AG 1 88 ( just tell us what happened. A. No, I came home fo the sugey. Q. All ight. Cay on, please, and A. She went into sugey, and at the beginning of the sugey, as they wee sawing though the stenum to open he chest, they cut though the main etuning vein and she lost a pile of blood and he blood pessue THE COURT: I can't hea you. At the beginning of the opeation they? THE WITNESS: They cut though -- as they wee cutting though the stenum, they cut though the main etuning vein. This caused geat loss of blood and a dop in the blood pessue which they wee neve able to bing up again.

7 7 c, in-chf. l' loss of blood? MR. McCOMS: Q. So thee was a geat A. Mm-hmm. Q. And you undestanding -- what happened afte that? A. Well, she was in the opeating oom fo appoximately nine o ten hous which was a lot longe than they had expected. And when they bought 1 inseted a balloon pump to keep the heat going. he down, they put he into the Intensive Cae Unit and Q. I would like to stop you thee. Duing the ten hou peiod that you mothe was in sugey, whee wee you? A. I was in the hospital waiting. o. And was anyone with you? J A. My fathe was thee and my bothe, 1 AG 88 (12189) was thee. Q. You bothe? Q. All ight. So the thee of you wee thee waiting in the hospital fo you mothe's sugey to be completed? A. Yes, mm-hmm.

8 . 1 g, in-chf. pefomed the sugey. We wee waiting in the hallway of the intensive cae -- acoss fom the Intensive Cae Unit at one point, and my fathe ecognized the sugeon as he came out, and he asked him what he chances wee and he vey aogantly said, Excuse me? And my fat~e went on to say, well, I undestand fom one of the othe doctos that she is not doing too well and is she going to ecove? And he said, oh, that! That's nothing. That will tun aound in no time and she'll be fine. And with that he tuned aound and just took off down the hall. He was completely insensitive, and my fathe was quite taken aback by all of this. We did, howeve, find anothe -- the othe docto who was fa moe sensitive. Q. Now, you mothe died in the sping of 1983? Q. At that time you wee about how old? A. I would have been appoximately twenty-seven. Q. Now, what kind of a guy was you dad? AG 88 (12189)

9 c / 8 in-chf. Q. You mentioned a balloon pump? A. Yes, they inseted a balloon pump to keep the heat going and they put he on seveal dugs to ty to get the blood pessue back up. And one of these dugs shut down the function of he kidneys so she expanded temendously. At one point she egained a bit of consciousness but she couldn't even open he eyes because she was so puffed up. And she ea.lly didn't get 1 any bette. The blood pessue kept going down, and AG 88 (12/89i about two days late, we asked them to emove he fom the monito because they said thee was no chance of he coming back. Q. A. I see. Yes. Now, you mothe died? Q. And I don't suppose it needs to be asked what affect this had on you and you family, but let's be specific and ask you, fist of all, whethe thee was any expeience at the hospital - apat, obviously, fom the teible tagedy - with the doctos that you ecall? A. Yes, we wee quite shocked and vey disappointed at the esponse we got fom the sugeon who

10 c I! I I AG 88 (12.189) , in-chf. A. He was a vey had woking, optimistic, enegetic young man, vey intelligent, open-minded. Q. How old was he in 1983? A. About 8, 7 o 8. Q. You said he was a young man? A. He was young. He was vey youthful in his physique, in his demeanou, in his attitudes. He neve thought of himself as being in his late fifties. Q. All ight. Now, that same yea, just a few months late, you got moe bad news? A. Yes, he was diagnosed as having cance, specifically a tumo in the ectum. fathe as a younge man. Q. I have hee a photogaph of you ask you if you can identify it. I'll just show it to you and A. Oh, yes, this is him. Q. I'm soy, you'e going to have to ty and keep you voice up, Miss him? A. This is him.. This is Q. Looking at the photogaph, can you give an appoximation of how old he might have been in

11 f l c L I 1 AG 88(12189) 7< , in-chf. that photogaph? A. Pobably in his late 40's. MR. McCOMS: I wonde if this photogaph of M. might be enteed as an exhibit in this tial, You Honou. THE COURT: THE REGISTRAR: Mm-hmm. THE COURT: Exhibit EXHIIT NO. 76: Photogaph. 40's. Exhibit 76, You Honou. MR. MCCOMS: Q. Late 40's did you say? A. Appoximately, mm-hmm, mid to late Q. Now, you told us that you fathe was diagnosed as having cance? ectum. Q. Can you tell us the kind of cance? A. It was a malignant tumo in the Q. As of the time that you fathe was diagnosed with this illness, what was his attitude about the medical pofession?

12 l 12, in-chf. A. He was sceptical of it because of the expeience we had had with my mothe. Like, the last thing in the wold that he expected was fo he to die, but he had always had a geat deal of espect fo the medical pofession and faith in it as well. Q. And what is the state of his mind about the medical pofession at the time that he was diagnosed as having cance? MRS. DAWSON: You Honou -- THE COURT: I honestly don't think that this witness can tell us what he fathe's state of mind was. She can tell us what he said, what she thought his state of mind was. MRS. DAWSON: I have a concen with espect to heasay evidence being given by this witness. Things that he fathe did, that she went with him and.saw and head between he fathe and the people I think she could pehaps elate to the Cout, but not he fathe's state of mind o things he said to he. MR. McCOMS: Things that he said to he ae diectly elevant to his state of mind and ae admissible, You Honou. If You Honou is not in ageement with that, pehaps it will have to be agued i L AG (12/

13 13 in-chf. in the absence of the juy. THE COURT: Well, to show his state of mind you can ask questions, but not fo the tuth of the contents. MR. MCCOMS: Exactly. Q. Did you fathe say anything to you, Miss, that gave you any -- with espect to his attitude towads doctos at the time that he was diagnosed as having cance? 1 A. No. As a matte of fact, he went ahead with a numbe of adiation teatments. He did follow the couse that they pescibed initially. Q. Can you tell us what you undestood the couse that they pescibed to be? A. It was to be a numbe of adiation teatments, I think pobably in the neighbouhood of fifteen, ten to fifteen. And a few months afte those wee ove, thee was to be sugey to emove the tumo, as well as the anal muscle, and they would have to have given him a colostomy because of that. Q. Sugey to emove the tumo as well as the actual anal muscle? AG 88 (12/89)

14 14, in-chf. Q. As well as a colostomy? Q. And it was to follow the adiation? Q. And you fathe took the adiation teatments? A. He took almost all of the adiation teatments, not quite all of them. Q. At that time, whee wee you living? 1 A. At that time I was living with him in the Toonto aea. Q. At some point I gathe that M. Hanswille was mentioned? Q. Can you tell us, please, when you fist head about M. Hanswille? A. My fathe came home one day and mentioned that at a elative'& house he had head about this M. Hanswille who was a hebalist in Makham, and that the elative who mentioned him said that she knew of seveal people who had gone to him who had no success with thei docto's teatment and had found themselves to be much bette as a esult of going to see this AG 88 (12189)

15 1 AG 88 (12189} hebalist., in-chf. fathe go and see him? Q. And to you knowledge did you A. Yes, he did. Q. And did you speak with you fathe afte his fist visit to M. Hanswille? Hanswille. A. Yes, I did. Q. And what did he tell you? A. He was vey impessed with M. He said that he was an extemely knowledgable man, and that the shop was full of people waiting to see him. And he had spoken to seveal people in the shop and they wee following his couse of teatment and felt bette, and that a lot of things M. Hanswille said seemed to make sense, and that pehaps I should go with him next time and see what I thought. Q. All ight. And did you do so? A. Yes, I did. Q. How long afte the fist visit? A. I think it was a few days o a week, pehaps - I don't emembe exactly - as soon as we could get into see him again. It was vey difficult to get in to see M. Hanswille unless you had a seious

16 1. AG 88 (12/9i condition. i, in-chf. Q. Ae you awae of whethe o not an appointment had been made when you went thee the second time -- soy, you fist time1 his second time? appointment. A. Yes, I think my fathe had made an Q. Can you just tell us, then, when you aived thee -- on you way thee what was you mood, what was you fathe's mood? the cance, the colostomy. A. Well, we wee vey concened about My fathe was a poud man and he eally didn't want to have to live with a bag fo the est of his life, and he was willing to entetain othe couses of teatment if it meant longevity, fist of all, and not having to wea a bag. somewhat optimistic going ove thee. that. day? So we wee Q. Can you descibe The House of Hebs A. It was full of people. Thee wee people waiting, pehaps five o six people, I think, at least, waiting to speak to M. Hanswille. And thee wee many othe people in the shop buying things and it was a vey busy place.

17 1 AG 88 (12189) 7S , in-chf. Q. Did you have occasion to speak to anyone o ovehea people speaking? A. Yes, I ovehead people speaking while we wee waiting. Q. What wee they saying? A. They wee saying how some of them wee thee fo the fist time and othes wee thee on epeated visits, and they wee saying how much bette they felt. And a lot of them wee ecounting thei own stoy of how they had gone to vaious doctos and had poo success. Q. What sots of illnesses did they say they had? A. I think one peson had gall stones I can't emembe specifically what the othe ones wee, but they wee mostly intenal-elated, digestion-elated o intenal ogan-elated. Q. Eventually you spoke to Hanswille? A. Q. A. Q. expeience, please? Yes. In you fathe's pesence? Yes. Can you tell us about that

18 ( 1 AG 88 (12189) i, in-chf. A. M. Hanswille told my fathe that his condition, namely the cance, was completely cuable. My fathe would have to put a lot of wok into -it, this wasn't going to be an easy oute to follow. had to change his diet completely because this was the cause of the cance, and he would have to eat stictly fuits and vegetables, aw, o juices of those fuits ~~~----~~------~--- and vegetables, and by doing this, the tumo would be dissolved and the cance would be cued. Q. Let's talk about what sot of impession the man made on you. A. He was a vey impessive man. The man I saw hee the othe day when I walked into the coutoom did not -- I hadly ecognized him. He did not stike me to be the same man at all. I mean, it was obviously him but five yeas ago o six yeas ago, he was adiant, he was -- he just glowed with health and he was vey chaismatic, v~y vey nice, vey knowledgable. jovial, chaming, fiendly, Thee was not a question that you could ask that would -- that he will not have an answe fo. As fa as the -- ae you also wondeing about the impession of the oom? He

19 AG 19, in-chf. Q. Yes, go ahead. A. I think thee wee a lot of books in his oom and he had access to a geat deal of infomation. If you spoke about a dug,,he would pull a cetain book off a shelf and he would give you all the side effects of that dug. He just -- he had a lot of knowledge. He had a lot of infomation. He was vey impessive, and he also told a lot of stoies about people who had come to see him with vaious poblems and 1 how they had been cued by following his couse of teatment. Q. What did he say to you, if anything, geneally, about the way the human body woks? A. Well, he geatly emphasized the intelligence of natue. He said that in natue the animals that ae closest to man, i.e., the oangutan and the monkeys, and what not, they live on fuit, and that the animals that live on meat have a vey small colon, small digestive system. Fo this eason man cannot digest meat. I'm soy, what was you question? I lost my tain. Q. Geneally about how the human body 88 (12189}

20 1 1' L AG 88 (12/89) functions., in-chf. A. Oh. So man would have to eat fuit and vegetables in ode fo the human body_ to function popely, and any deviance fom that type of diet would ceate toxins and poisons in the body which would have a destuctive effect on the body and that's how a disease would come about. Q. Was he -- was thee a discussion at all about the specifics of you fathe's illness? A. Thee was a bit of a discussion about the specifics. My fathe had been a meat eate and a cheese eate and a pasta eate and did not have a lot of fuit and vegetables in his diet. And Hanswille felt that this was pobably why my fathe had cance. mean, it stood to eason that all these toxins and poisons had accumulated in one place and the esult was cance. Q. And what about the tumo itself, you told us, I think, that thee was a discussion about the fact that he had aleady been having adiation teatments? A. Yes, M. Hanswille said that because my fathe had been going fo adiation, this adiation I

21 \ 1 AG 88 (12189) , in-chf. would have sealed o encapsulated the tumo. Q. Encapsulated? A. Yes, sealed it so it would be hade to dissolve this tumo and it would take much longe than if he had not gone fo the adiation, and he would need diffeent kinds of hebs and it would just be a moe difficult teatment, but it could be done if he stuck to the teatment. Q. Did he expess any opinion about what would happen in the futue? A. Well, he said that if he followed the couse of teatment that the tumo would dissolve and that the body would id itself. Q. It would o could? A. It would, would dissolve. The body would id itself of the tumo and all the toxins and poisons, and he would be a hunded pe cent aftewads. that day? Q. Did he say anything about doctos A. Yes, he did. He said that doctos and the whole medical society, the whole system, is based on money, and that the doctos eally didn't cae and it was a self-pepetuating system, because if they

22 1 AG (12189) , in-chf. found the cue to cance, then they wouldn't have as many billings. Q. How did that sound to you at that time, the sot of comments that M. Hanswille was making that day? A. It sounded pehaps a little bit fa-fetched, but a lot of what he said -- you have to undestand the whole context of the place. Thee's people -- these people ae milling aound and, you know, we listened to what he had to say. I mean, some of it sounded quite ealistic, quite cedible. He spoke about people that had gone though this couse of teatment and had been fine, thei cance had disappeaed and thee was liteatue to back that up. Q. Did you fathe tell you why he wanted you to come with him? A. I think he valued my judgment. He just wanted to know what I t~ought of this individual. Q. And afte you left -- fist of all, how long wee you thee? A. We wee thee fo quite a while. I think we wee thee at least 4 minutes. He was vey geneous with his time. He didn't ush us out of the

23 23 1 AG 88 (12189) off ice. consultation? have on you?, in-chf. Q. Did he chage you any fee fo the A. No. Q. What impession, if any, did that A. That this man was vey genuine and why would he do it. He wasn't looking fo money. was ahead. Q. Did he - I beg you padon, go A. I was just going to say that he showed eal, tue concen and eally knew something. Why else would he do it if he wasn't doing it fo money? Q. And did he make any ecommendations about what you fathe should puchase? A. He have said that he should initiate with the live cleanse, which is an olive oil teatment, and stat dinking some fuit juices, and what not. we puchased some olive oil and gape juice and some hebs and sane books, pehaps seveal othe things. THE COURT: I'm soy? He So

24 1 AG 88 (12189) 7S things., in-chf. THE WITNESS: Pehaps seveal othe MR. MCCOMS: Q. Did he tell you what the olive oil teatment was fo? A. It was to open up the live and get the poisons initially out of the live and the bile ducts and the gall bladde. you fathe to do? Q. Can you tell us, then, what he told A. Well, he told him to do this teatment, and he also said that -- he pedicted the esults of the teatment. He said that you would eliminate cetain little ound -- a waxy substance, which is indeed what happened. dinking the juice and change his diet. was? And that he should stat Q. What did he say the waxy substance A. I can't emembe. I undestood it to be a non-desiable element, like a poison o toxin. Q. How much money did you spend at his stoe that day, can you emembe? A. I think somewhee in the neighbouhood of a hunded to two hunded dollas.

25 i 1, in-chf. Q. Okay. Now, you left the stoe with the popety -- the mechandise that you puchased with you fathe, what was you fathe's mood afte leaving the stoe? What was you mood? A. Vey optimistic. This man gave us a ' geat deal of hope, you know. My fathe was the type of man that was willing to put in whateve it took to get something done and to do something ight. And he was vey, vey optimistic. go to see M. Hanswille? appoximately once a week. Q. How often afte that did you fathe A. Initially I think my fathe went Q. Did he follow the egimen that had been pescibed by Hanswille afte the visit that you went with him? A. Yes, he did, eligiously. able to see the effects of it? wee? Q. Wee you pesent in the home to be A. Yes, mm-hmm. Q. Can you tell us what those effects A. Well, initially it was vey AG 88 (12/89)

26 26, in-chf. difficult and my fathe was hungy a geat deal. Ove the fist couple of months he lost a lot of weight. Ove the fist two, thee, fou months he lost a geat deal of weight. And he claimed that he had much moe enegy and that he was feeling a lot bette. Q. Now, you mentioned that you fathe would go to see Hanswille, did you say once a week? A. About once a week, I think. 1 AG 88 (12189) A. I didn't go quite as of ten. I went initially, I think, about once evey two weeks. Q. Once evey two weeks you went with you fathe to see Hanswille? Q. Fo how.long? A. Fo a few months, maybe thee o fou months. Q. So duing this ealy peiod, ove that thee o fou month peiod, could you tell us appoximately how many times you went to Hanswille's House of Hebs with you fathe? A. Pobably about six to eight times. Q. And on each of those occasions could Q. What about you, Miss?

27 27, in-chf. you tell us how long you wee in the company of M. Hanswille with you fathe? A. Anywhee fom fifteen minutes to an AG 1 88 (t2/89} hou. Q. And then altogethe ove that - again just talking about this ealy time, how many hous did you spend with M. Hanswille and you fathe? A. At least fou hous, five hous. Q. Now, duing that fou o five hou peiod that was spent ove that thee o fou-month peiod - I may be getting a little bit ahead of ouselves hee - did you fathe -- you've aleady told us that he followed the egimen Q. -- that had been pescibed by Hanswille? Q. Can you tell us about that egimen o diet? A. He ate only aw fuit and aw vegetables, and he bought a juice and he would juice the fuits and the vegetables. He would make these hebal concoctions that he would dink. He would not

28 28, in-chf. eat any meat o cheese, fish, bead, pasta, ice, anything like that. Q. Now, you mentioned the juice? Q. Whee did he get the juice? A. Fom M. Hanswille's shop. Q. Wee you with him the day he bought it? A. No, I was thee when he bought it AG 88 (12189) home. Q. You don't know what it cost? A. Seveal hunded dollas. Q. Now, can you tell us what the kitchen looked like duing this peiod of time? A. The kitchen was full of hebs and full of fuit and vegetables. The house was full of books. Q. You mentioned that you fathe had lost a lot of weight? Q. What did Hanswille tell him about that, if anything? A. Accoding to M. Hanswille, the

29 29, in-chf. weight loss was -- had no beaing at all. It was completely insignificant. He told him that the weight loss was due to the fact that the body was stating to 1.>( id itself of toxins and poisons, and that this was all / {~ : "I.. -~--- excess stuff and not to woy about the weight loss at all. When the body was finally clean and healthy, that Q. the body would find its own weight level and it would be like a homeostatic state. Homeostatic state? 1 A. That's the wod I emembe, homeostatic state. Q. Did he use that wod? A. He used that wod. Q. What did you undestand that to mean? A. I undestood that to mean that the AG 88 (12189) body had its own intelligence and would look afte itself, know what level to be at and how much fat that it should have. Q. Now, you've said that you fathe conducted himself in a way consistent with what Hanswille told him?

30 1 AG 88 (12189) 740-H71, in-chf. Q. Did he say things to you that would give you an idea about how he felt about Hanswille? A. Hanswille -- inceasingly M. Hanswille became my fathe's mento. He was always vey impessed with the amount of knowledge M. Hanswille had. He was also meeting moe people, I guess, duing this time and he was vey impessed with the esults that he was seeing in these othe people that wee coming into the shop. Q. And what wee these othe people being teated fo? A. All kinds of things, eveything. Q. Eveything? A. Eveything. M. Hanswille could he claimed. that this system could teat anything and eveything because you wee just teating the body as a whole and the body had its own intelligence. So if you just clean.ed it up and teated would become, fo lack of a bette te, would look afte itself completely and Q. That's what he seemed to believe? Q. You fathe?

31 ( 1 31, in-chf. Q. What about you, Miss? A. I must admit I was ovewhelmed by that belief syst~m as well. It's -- it's vey had, c:. ight fom my pespective now, to look back and admit that I was so taken by this man. Q. How did he do it? A. It's a vey difficult thing to convey, to communicate, just how mesmeizing this man was. I think I've said it befoe, this man could sell icecubes to Eskimos in the dead of winte. good. He was so He was so positive. He was so knowledgable. was so poweful. about him. He just exuded this poweful aua He had people aound him all the time. He had students leaning fom him all the time, people AG 88 (12/89) was nothing that he couldn't handle. I mean, at the time I didn't hea about any cases that went wong. I just head about -- eveybody I an into thee, eveybody I spoke to, was getting bette and was vey exubeant about this man and about his couse of teatment. It was like a spell that I was unde, you.., //. ; I I.:.,/ ' ; -(_,,,:._'I_. ~- coming to him fo knowledge, and it seemed that thee

32 c : AG88(12/89) , in-chf. know. Q. You dad lost quite a bit of weight? Q. I guess we all know weight loss is one of the things we see in cance patients? Q. What did you think the weight loss was caused by? A. I thought it was caused by this body idding itself of the excess, of the poisons. Q. Thee's anothe pictue I want to show you. It's a photogaph of you fathe and he's olde and appaently thinne? Q. That photogaph, could you tell us, please, if you know, appoximately when that was taken? A. I think that was taken about a yea to a yea and a half pio to his death. Q. Was this befoe o afte he had met Hanswille? A. Oh, afte he had met Hanswille. Q. Appoximately how long afte he met Hanswille.would you estimate that pictue was taken? I

33 ( c 1 AG 88 (12189) , in-chf. just want to get an idea. I want the juos to get an idea of how he looked afte he'd been on Hanswille's diet fo a while. Is that a pictue of that o not? A. It is. Maybe it's six months to a yea afte he met him, something like that, a yea and a half. a yea and a half. Q. A yea and a half? A. I don't know, six months, a yea o Q. Anothe pictue hee that in fainess is a pictue of you fathe when he was a younge man, as well as bigge? A. He was younge but he was always that weight most of his life. Pio to the teatment by Hanswille he was that weight. MR. McCOMS: I think that the fist photogaph that was tendeed M. Regista did not have an oppotunity to complete filling out the THE REGISTRAR: You Honou, thee's a slight discepancy in the last two exhibit numbes. I could check it at the ecess befoe I exhibit nwnbe to this. MR. McCOMS: assign an Fo now I would iike to If

34 ( l 1 34, in-chf. show these photogaphs to the juy. THE COURT: All ight. MR. McCOMS: Q. Now, this photogaph, Miss, which is the last photogaph that's been tendeed to you, was taken afte he had been on Hanswille's diet fo a while? Q. How much weight would you say he lost duing that fist couple of months when he went on Hanswille's diet? A. I think about fifteen to twenty pounds. Q. And you fathe was saying what about himself? A. That he felt stonge, he felt much bette. He had a lot moe enegy. He was happy, he felt vey good. Q. Did M. Hanswille, duing any of these visits that you wee having evey couple of weeks, did he talk about how the tumo was coming along? A. No, he didn't specifically talk about the tumo. He genealized a geat deal and just talked about the body idding itself of the poisons. \ AG88(12/89)

35 ( 1 ~ : AG 88 (12189) , in-chf. Q. Did he expess any esevations that this teatment would be successful? A. None whatsoeve. Q. Could you just tell us again how he would convey to you, his thoughts, about the teatment of you fathe's cance? A. Well, he would talk -- he would daw analogies between the intelligence of the univese and the laws of the univese, and thee wee -- I mean, thee wee basically no othe ways to go. I mean, if you wanted to get bette, then this is what you had to do. And if you did these things, then you would id youself of all this -- these bad things that wee ceating the cance, and you had to get bette just as a matte of law. Q. Matte of law? A. Law, the univesal law of natue. Q. M. Hanswille sat ight whe~ you ae and he told the juy that he only tells people -- gives them options and he only gives them infomation. What if anything do you want to say about that? A. The only option he gives you is that one. As fa as he's concened, that is the o~ly oute.

36 1 c I I AG 88 (12189) 7' , in-chf. Any othe oute you'e going to die. You won't make it. ecause it's not accoding to the laws of natue, to do it any othe way. If you go to the hospital, if go to the docto, they would teat you symptomatically. They will emove what is ailing you but they will not get id of the cause. Q. So you say teat you symptomatically, you mean just teat what A. They'll take the twno out, that's it, but they won't go to the oute of the poblem and emove what caused the twno. Q. Now, when you fist met M. Hanswille was a few months afte you mothe had died? having cance? at home? I ight? Q. You fathe had been diagnosed as Q. You moved in with you dad and lived Q. And that was in the fall of 1983, am A. That's ight.

37 . L, 37, in-chf. Q. Duing that next -- we've talked about the few months afte the diagnoses and the diet and so on, what about the next few months afte that? A. He seemed to be pogessing quite well, so I took the libety of going to school in Halifax fo a few months. Q. When was that? A. That was in the fall of '84. Q. Had you lived at home all the time 1 up to the fall of '84? Q. Now, you fathe's weight, had it stabilized at that peiod of time o not? A. He went though a peiod of stabilized weight, yes, mm-hmm. Q. And his degee of commitment to the diet, was it A. Absolute. Q. Absolute? A. Absolute. Q. And his state of mind -- I'm soy, the things that he would say about Hanswille duing that peiod of time, did you hea him say negative things? AG 88 (12189)

38 1 38, in-chf. A. Neve. Always vey, vey positive, always vey impessed with the man. Q. What about the teatment that had been pescibed by the medical pofession, did he poceed with the adium teatments that he had been getting when he went to see M. Hanswille? A. No, he didn't finish up the adiation teatments. He cut them shot. o. What about the sugey? A. No, he didn't go fo the sugey. Q. Did he say to you why?' A. ecause he said that he could dissolve the tumo though a diet and, theefoe, thee was no need to go and have sugey and have to wea have to use a colostomy o wea a colostomy. Q. You went to Dalhousie to go to school, in fact you went to Dalhousie Law Schoo~? / AG88(12f Q. And did you have contact with you fathe duing the time when you wee in Halifax studying law? A. I spoke to him by phone the fist few months, and then I saw him at Chistmas.

39 1 f 39, in-chf. anything, about his condition? Q. What did he say on the telephone, if A. He was always vey positive, always felt that he was vey stong and getting bette. Q. And you own state of mind? A. I was vey positive. You know, I felt that he -- I felt that he was in good hands with M. Hanswille and I, as a esult, I was positive too. Q. I gathe aound Chistmas o exam time you got a call fom you fathe? A. Yes, he was vey, vey distaught because he found out that his mothe in Italy had leukemia and he was Q. That's anothe kick in the head? And he was phoning to tell me that he was leaving the next day and I guess he was off. on a mission to ty help he the same way he was being helped. He was going to ty to change he diet, put he on fuits and vegetables. Q. Thee had been plans duing the Chistmas vacation to tavel with you fathe? A. I believe so, yes. Q. You believe so? Well, let me -- AG 88 (12189)

40 f f AG 1 I I L 88 (12189) i, in-chf. you fathe went off to Italy to visit his mothe? A. To visit my gandmothe, yes. Q. How do you know that you fathe wanted to pesuade you gandmothe to go on this diet? A. He told me that this was he only chance, if she went on this diet, because othewise she wasn't going to make it. tip when he came back? Q. And what did he tell you about the gandmothe had gone along with this? Did he tell you whethe you A. Well, my gandmothe didn't go along with that diet. He was vey depessed about that. gandmothe? Q. And what happened with you A. She died a few months late. Q. And what affect, if any, did that have on you fathe's faith of Hanswille's way? his faith because she died. A. Well, I think it pobably einfoced Q. And you? A. Well, at that point it eally didn't seem like thee wee othe options. My gandmothe chose not to go that way and she died, what option do

41 . AG 1 88 ( , in-chf. you have? Q. I asked you about plans to go on a vacation at Chistmas? Q. And you said you believe it was the Chistmas of '84 thee wee such plans? Q. What plans wee they? A. Well, I'm not we went to Cuba with M. Hanswille and his wife. It was eithe Chistmas of '84 o Chistmas of '83, I'm not exactly sue which Chistmas it was. I think it was of '84. Q. You'e not sue whethe it was that same Chistmas that you gandmothe -- you got the news a.bout you gandmothe o whethe it was the yea befoe? A. I think it was that Chistmas whee we got the news about my gandmothe, but I'm not a hunded pe cent sue. Q. Why did you fathe take M. Hanswille and his wife to Cuba? A. man to be aound. M. Hanswille was a vey pleasant He was also a vey knowledgable man

42 f f 1 42, in-chf. and I think my fathe -- I know my fathe saw this as a temendous leaning oppotunity fo both him and his childen, us. Q. What about you, how did you feel about it? A. Um-m, I felt the same way, you know. Q. What did you talk about in Cuba? A. All kinds of things. I must admit it was quite a while ago, and I think as a esult of my expeiences, I've blocked a lot of it out, but we spoke about elements, about hemetics, about diet, about politics, about economics. Q. What impession did you have of M. Hanswille afte that holiday? A. knowledgable man. I still felt that he was a vey A lot of what he talked about I didn't undestand, but neve the less I felt he was knowledgable Q. When you wee unable to undestand what he was talking about, what conclusions did you aive at? A. That I was stupid. Q. Afte the tip you came back and you AG 88 ( 12189)

43 c AG 1 88 (12189) , in-chf. went back to law school? came to leave law school? Q. Tell us about what happened, why you A. Well, in tems of my fathe, I became vey concened about him because he was eally upset about his mothe dying, and he seemed vey, vey low, and I came back to be with him. school? school. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Is that the eason you left law That was the main eason I left law So you moved back to Toonto? Yes. To be with you fathe? Mm-hnun, yes. Q. And you moved back into the home? Q. Now, what about afte you etun, about you contacts with Hanswille and you fathe's contacts, can you help us with that? A. They continued, and M. Hanswille was always the same, always vey positive, vey

44 AG 1 88 (12189) i, in-chf. absolute, vey fiendly. My fathe had become vey good fiends with him by that point, so he had the libety of stopping in wheneve he wanted and M. Hanswille would see him. vey much? Q. And what about you, did you see him A. I saw him on occasion. have dinne on occasion, all of us. fathe and I. Hebs? of time? Q. All of you? We would A. Well, M. and Ms. Hanswille and my Q. Did you attend at The House of A. Yes, on occasion. Q. And fo consultations in the back? Q. How was you fathe ove that peiod A. His health? Q. Physically, yes. A. y the time the fall olled aound, I noticed that he was losing moe weight and he had developed quite a bit of diahea to the point wheeby

45 1 AG 88 (12/89) , in-chf. late fall he eally.didn't leave the house vey much because of the diahea. leave the house? Q. The diahea was so bad he couldn't Q. How about his weight? A. His weight had dopped quite damatically and was continuing to dop. fist got sick, if you know. hunded and sixty-five pounds. Q. Tell us how much he weighed when he A. I think he weighed appoximately a Q. y this time when the diahea was so bad, what would you estimate his weight to be? A. In the late fall? Q. Yes. A. A hunded and twepty pounds, maybe. Q. Now, what was you attitude towads M. Hanswille as the weight stated to come off? A. Well, I was vey concened, you (~ know. I had my moments otdoubt, and when I expessed these to M. Hanswille, he was vey einfocing, he was absolutely sue that this was the toxins, poisons, that

46 46, in-chf. wee coming out and not to be concened. And he had to ' go though this, thee wee no two ways about it and when this was done, the body would egain its egain moe weight and he would be fine, absolutely fine. Q. Did you accept this o eject it? A. I accepted it. Q. Why? AG 88 (12/89) A. I was scaed. I -- I had been told on a numbe of occasions that if I took him to the hospital that he would die if they gave him any dugs o anything. His system was vey clean o getting vey clean and the dugs would kill him, and I didn't want to take tha t chance. I didn't want my fathe to die. And M. Hanswille seemed so sue of himself and evey o else was still getting bette and the shop was still full of people, and he eally seemed to know what he was doing. many othe times. He indicated that he had seen this happen I mean, one eally had the impession that he was vey familia with this kind of situation. Q. Tell us what he said, if you can emembe, be a little moe specific. A. He said that because dad had had

47 1 AG 88 (12189) ~ , in-chf. adiation that it was a little moe difficult fo him than the aveage peson who had not had adiation because of the poblem with the twno being sealed off, but he had to pesist, and if he did pesist, this tumo would be dissolved and eveything would be fine. Q. Now, you mentioned the diahea, this was by the fall of 198, the diahea was so bad that he had to stay home? A. Yes, late fall. Q. What about the continued inteaction with Hanswille, how did that take place? A. It took place mainly ove the telephone between my fathe and M. Hanswille. fathe could call him up any time and he would take his call. to Mexico? My Q. y the way, thee was anothe tip A. Thee was. I did not paticipate in that tip. My fathe took M. Hanswille down. Q. y the fall of 198, what was the level of commitment to Hanswille o Hanswille's A. Complete, total. Q. On the pat of whom?

48 AG 88 (12189) , in-chf. A. My fathe. Q. And on you pat? A. And on my pat as well. Q. Now, you say that you fathe would speak to Hanswille on the telephone. And what about you, did you have occasion to see him? A. I would go down and see him on occasion, mainly to pick up hebs o othe things because my fathe couldn't eally go out of the house. Q. Whee did you fathe get the stuff in the kitchen? A. Soy? Q. Whee did you fathe get all of the stuff that was in the kitchen that you told us was thee befoe? A. He he got it at M. Hanswille's shop. Q. Can you give us a ough idea how much money he spent in that shop ove that peiod of time? A. Ove the -- Q. Just on an aveage visit. A. On an aveage visit?

49 49, in-chf. Q. Mm-hmm. A. A hunded dollas, sometimes moe, sometimes a little less. Q. How often would these visits take place? A. Once a week. A. always othes in the shop? Q. Now, you mentioned that thee wee Yes. 1 Q. How many othes would thee geneally be in the shop? twenty A. Pobably about twenty people o so, somewhee between fifteen and thity. Sometimes fifteen: sanetimes thity. Q. When you would go to the shop afte the fall of 198, you would have occasion to speak to him? Q. How long would these talks be? A. Five o ten minutes. He always gave me as much time as I needed. He neve tied to ush me out because I would expess my concen about my fathe's situation. He would always take the time to eassue me AG 88 (12189)

50 AG 1 88 (12189) so, in-chf. and tell me not to be so concened, that eveything was pogessing as it had to, as it was supposed to. few months -- leave the house? Q. Now, this continued ove the next Q. -- with you fathe being unable to Q. And then, I gathe, towads the last ~ couple of months he was petty well confined to the house all the time? time basis. aound. A. Yes, he was. Q. What did you do then? A. I.stayed home with him on a full Q. Did you stop woking? A. Yes, I did. He needed to have me Q. What was his condition at that point when you fist made the decision that you had to stay home with him? A. Well, he was extemely weak. It seemed that he was always on the toilet and he was

51 1 1 AG 88 (12189) , in-chf. stating to lose his voice and I had to cae fo him. still have contact with him? Q. What about M. Hanswille, did you A. Oh, yes. Q. And what was the state of you mind as fa as Hanswille was concened when you fathe got to that point? concened? way. A. As fa as M. Hanswille was Q. Let me ask the question a diffeent A. Yes, please. Q. Once you fathe eached the point whee you had to stay home all the time and you decided to stay with him, how did you feel about Hanswille? A. I felt I felt that the man was still concened, available wheneve we wanted him to be, and he seemed so sue that eveything was going just fine. I was vey concened and he didn't seem concened about my concen. I felt like a silly woman, you know. He neve called me a silly woman but I felt like a silly woman to be so woied all the time. Q. You thought that's what he thought

52 AG I I 88 (12189) of you?, in-chf. undestand that I A. Yes, mm-hmm. I mean, you must had neve been in this situation befoe, I didn't know what to expect. happening that I Thee wee things didn't expect and I went to him because he indicated that he had been though this so many times and he knew his way aound, he knew what was going to happen. I confided in him. We had complete tust in him. that peiod? peiod. Q. Did that tust emain o not duing A. Yes, it emained duing that MR. McCOMS: appopiate time fo a beak? THE COURT: THE REGISTRAR: You Honou, is this an All ight. Fifteen minutes. Yes, You Honou. Membes of the juy, you may etie fo fifteen minutes, thank you. You Honou, the fist photogaph is now Exhibit 7 and next photogaph is EXHIIT NO. 7: Photogaph.

53 AG 1 88 (12189) , in-chf. --- EXHIIT NO. 76: Photogaph. --- The juy eties at 3:34. You Honou. THE REGISTRAR: Cout adjouned at 3:3. Cout esumes at 3:0. MR. COOPER: M. Skuka -- MR. McCOMS: anticipating You Honou's question. THE COURT: The juy has etied, Fifteen minutes, I'm I was going to say that you had to tell the juy they had to stay late..mr. COOPER: May I tell the juy that M. Skuka had to go to a docto's appointment? THE COURT: --- Juy etuns at 3:1. You Honou. THE REGISTRAR: Yes. The juy's all pesent,

54 4 in-chf. THE COURT: Thank you. MR. COOPER: You Honou, my associate counsel, M. Skuka, had to go fo a docto's appointment. THE COURT: Thank you. Yes, M. Mccombs? MR. McCOMS: Thank you, You Honou. Q. Miss, you told us that in the last about two months of you fathe's life that you made the decision to go stay home full time with him? Q. And the eason fo that was that he was too weak to get aound? A. Q. Yes, he was. Was he able to get aound inside the house? A. Initially he was, yes, and then in the last two weeks of his life, he was confined to his oom. Q. So you fathe died on Mach 13th, 1986? A. Q. Yes. And this decision to stay home was

55 AG 1 88 (12189) in Januay?, in-chf. A. Yes, Januay. Q. Initially, as you say, he was able to get aound the house, and could he pepae his own food? him at times. then? A. He could initially. I would help Q. And what sot of food was he eating A. He was eating the same thing he'd ""- - been eating fo the two yeas pio. He was eating aw salads, aw fuits. y this time I think he was taking in moe juices, ~oe soft food because.he had -- it was moe difficult fo him to chew and to make the food, and he had a lot of diahea as well. Q. When he got to this weakened state, what was his attitude towads M. Hanswille? completely. A. He still tusted the man He was still following the egimen and still felt that M. Hanswille knew what he was doing. He would cay on. Q. And duing this peiod, duing the last couple of months, well befoe he got so weak that

56 1 6 i, in-chf. he was bedidden, did you have occasion to speak with M. Hanswille as well? A. I spoke to him. I spoke to him on seveal occasions and expessed my concen, and he insisted that I not woy, that this was not easy but this was the final chapte of the poisons coming out, and we just had to get though this last little bit and be patient and eveything would be fine. deteioate? Hanswille? us? occasions? spoke to him. Q_. A. Q. Now, you wee watching you fathe Yes. ~ You expessed you con~ to M. Q. And he told you what you just told Q. Is this on one occasion o seveal A. Seveal occasions, evey time I Q. Wee you pesuaded by this o not? A. I was pesuaded by it. I mean, I. \,.i.'- C.(.~. AG 88 (12189} 7~1171

57 1 AG ( , in-chf. look back now and I think how could I have been pesuaded by it.. I was pesuaded. unbelievably pesuasive. and -- Q. Soy? The man is He's vey, vey chaismatic A. Extemely chaismatic. Q. Chaismatic? A. Chaismatic. He's also, you know, vey gentle with you when he -- when you come to him so concened. gandfathely. He was vey gentle. He's vey He's like an elde. You tust him and he seems vey genuine, vey concened. Q. Now, I gathe that duing the last two weeks of his life he was bedidden? Q. And if my fiend doesn't mind, I'm going to lead you on this next point. I gathe at this stage you eally had to take cae of his pesonal hygiene? A. Yes, I did. Q. That meant you had to bathe him? Q. And assist him when he went to the

58 L i 1 c ' \ I 2o L AG 88 (12189) 7: washoom?, in-chf. the end he was so weak. A. Yes, I did. Q. What was he eating at that time? A. I would have to spoon feed him at He was eating vey soft things, avocados and things that you could mush up, bananas, avocados. with you? Q. Was he still able to communicate Q. Did you tal~ ~~~nswille about him?.l.ll-cl A. I did~4h~ wanted to continuec;.._o_n ~--- the couse of teatment, vey afaid of doctos. At one point I mentioned to him that -- I asked him if he wanfea-fo go to the hospital because I knew he was in a temendous amount of pain and pehaps they could give him sanething, mophine o somethi~. And my fathe--:1 / l I~"') looked at me quite hoified and said No, no way, they'll kill me. fathe going to the hospital?.. _ I'm not going to the hospital. Q. Did you talk to Hanswille about you Q. What did Hanswille tell you? ~ !_t.Ll

59 I I / ' I I I I \ I I \ \ \ \ 1~ ~ ~ -.;;; 1 l~~ I ( \ 3~ I 9 i, in-chf. A. He said that he would die. I asked M. Hanswille, because I was, as I said, vey concened about the pain. So I spoke to M. Hanswille diectly and -- - Q. I'm soy to inteupt, I know how difficult this is, but we have to make sue that all of the m_e_mb e s o f t_h_e j_u y c_a_n h_e_a y_o_u-.--~----~ c-,,~l A. On seveal occasions, at least two o thee occasions, I specifically mentioned taking my fathe to the hospital and giving him mophine. And M. Hanswille said that that would kill my fathe. Q. Did you believe that o not? A. I believed it, yes. I was scaed to death. I didn't want to take that chance. Q. Tell us how Hanswille was able to pesuade you not to take you dying fathe to the hospital? A. He scaed the living daylights out of me. He told me in an authoitative way that if I took him to the hospital he would die, that they would kill him. The minute they put mophine into him o anything like that, it would kill him. Thee wee no two ways about it. I I I I! I \ j \ )! J I \ AG 88 (12189) \ ' \ I ' I \ : ' I

60 I -. AG 1 88 (12189) advice?, in-chf. Q. How did you feel about that Did you accept it o not? A. I accepted it. I was, you know, devastated by the thought. I was hoified. I ~ Q. Now, I gathe at some point duing the last week o ten days he was unable to get out of bed at all? A. Yes, that's ight. Q. And you caied him? A. We put a diape on him. Q. Now, at some point did he daw you attention to a poblem that he was having beyond what we've aleady head about? Q. Please tell us about that. A. About two weeks befoe he died, he called me into the bathoom and he said, can you have a look because thee's anothe hole". And I didn't know what he was talking about. I said, Anothe hole?" He said, The feces ae coming out of anothe hole". went in to look, and indeed thee was a small lesion And I with this substance, thi_ Q_~ awful substance, that was ----, -- coming out of it. And we inunediately phoned M.