IN THE SUPREME COURT OF SOUTH AFRIC \ (TRANSVAAL PROVINCIAL DIVISION> THE STATE. vs. VOLUME 43. PAGES LUBBE RECORDINGS (PRETORIA)

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1 IN THE SUPREME COURT OF SOUTH AFRIC \ (TRANSVAAL PROVINCIAL DIVISION> CASE MO. 18/75/ TH NOVEMBER In the matter of: THE STATE vs. S. COOPER AND EIGHT OTHERS VOLUME 43. PAGES LUBBE RECORDINGS (PRETORIA) /HC

2 COURT RESUMES; STOFFEL JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE, NOG ONDER EED; CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SOGGOT CONTINUED; M'lord, at this stage we would prefer not to carry on the cross-examination in respect of the speech of Mr. Buthelezi's, Tmsicallj7' in so far as the contents are concerned, we have crossexamined in a manner which. I think indicates our attitude. Now, M'lord, Mr. van der Merwe did indicate that he would equip himself in respect of certain points which arose in cross-examination yesterday, we would suggest that if that can he dealt with now, it might be appropriate. I do not follow what you suggest? MR. SOGGOT; M'lord, I understand Mr. van der Merwe wants to equip himself in respect of the other documents, and before there is any postponement, M'lord, I was going to suggest that perhaps he could be asked about these items. Yes. Wat is die posisie, mnr. Van der Merwe? Edele, ten opsigte van party van daardie punte het ek ook nog nie myself behoorlik kon voorberei nie. MR. SOGGOT; M'lord, our attitude is that is as far as we would like to take it then at this stage. m it l But have we not got short documents that we can deal with, so that we can deal with them in the same way as we dealt with Buthelezi's speech? MR. SOGGOT; M'lord, I would be happy to do so, there are in Mr. van der Merwe's possession..(court intervenes) Yes, but you know whether you have long documents o short documents, I mean it is diificulc to aosoro a long document with all its implications, whereas with the-short9 documents it is probably easier. MR. -SOGGOT; M'lord, there are in fact short documents in

3 Mr. van der Merwe1s possession, bat basically M'lord, there are really long documents in collections of speeches, and as I understand it Mr. van der Merwe wishes to see it as a totality. We have got some other short documents, M'lord, which are newspaper cuttings, but these would we submit fall logically into the cross-examination..(court intervenes) But Mr. Soggot we cannot just go on indefinitely with producing new documents. MR. 3 OGG-OTt Ho, M'lord, there is no question of that. Mr. Pitman has got other documents, M'lord, which we have 10 indicated to your Lordship, and what we do want to do in fact is hand, some more speeches of Mr. Buthelezi and some other short documents which are newspaper articles to Mr. van der Merwe which he can absorb during the interval. COURT % Yes, well what is your attitude, Mr. Rees? MR.. REES; M lord, of course in terms of Your Lordship's ruling these things must now be canvassed, but it seems to me that the Defence should at this stage put their defence so that we know what it is, then we can also start preparing for it, that is of course if they have got a defence, 20 perhaps they haven't got one, and they are canvassing- this type of issue. M'lord, I leave the matter in Your Lordship's hands. COURT,; Well could you indicate your defence as far as these documents are concerned, so that the witness can know wuat ig looking for, X mean he cannoo look through all t.-ieso documents just so that you can ask him a sort of oral examination on them. MR. SOG-G-OT% No, M'lord, I think that what we require has already been indicated to the witness, and that we wish 30 him to apply his diagnostic model. Court /

4 VAN DER MER COURT i And. is that the only reason why you want him to look at those documents? SOGGOT : For the purpose of the cross-examination such as was undertaken this morning, M'lord, and then having gone through those documents we will state our case. COURTs And what will your evidence be as far as those documents are concerned? FIR. SOGGOT; M'lord, we will prove those documents. COURTo Yes, but what do you say, what is the use of these documents? 10 SOGGOT; That these documents, coupled with evidence of speeches which are mad.e frequently, expressions of opinion which are made publicly, coincide with the material which emanates from SASO and BPC, and that the diagnostic value of the supposed "sametrekkende idee and the undermining of support and undermining of legitimacy is nil. C O U R T v/ell just give me an idea in relation to the last document, what you mean, take this Buthelezi speech, you say it is nil. MR. SOGGOT: No, M'lord, I would prefer not to make that 20 submission in relation to that speech in isolation, M'lord, that will be our contention at the end of the cross-examination, I would prefer, M'lord, not to as it were indicate the precise steps which cross-examination will take, but as far as our use of the documents is concerned, is this, and that is that once one has tested his diagnostic - supposed diagnostic method on the documents, you find that they are of no assistance to the Court. COURTs Is that the only defence you really have that you base on these documents? 30 MR. SOGGOTj That, M lord, is the main thrust of our case in /... i.'il

5 VAN DER MERWE in respect of the documents as far as this witness is concerned. Are you going to lead evidence to controvert his approach to the problem? FIR. gog-g-ot: Certainly, M lord. We will lead evidence to say that his approach is untenable in political science. COURT I Yes, but now will you tell him why, so I mean if he has to qualify himself then he might as well qualify himself on those points as well. MR. _S0G-G-0'.D; Well, M'lord, that has already been put to 10 him, the major theme which we rely upon to criticise him has been put. COURTi Well unless I missed it, what would you say in short is the major theme? I-IR._ SOG-C-OTo M'lord, the immediate cricitism which comes to mind is that Mr. van der Merwe has in fact in political science terms created a chimaera, in the sense that he has evolved a diagnostic test on an unsystematic basis, he has taken as it were from a list of all the possible things that men could do to overthrow a regime, certain items, and 20 from a totally disparate list, that is of the things that men do..do to make a revolution, taken a few items, put them into one collection, and presented that to Your lordship as a test, and we submit, M'lord, that this is not permissible in political science. Then, M'lord, our other submission is that a proper appreciation of Easton demonstrates that Easton is incontestably pre predictive theory, tnat uaston does not purport to give a predictive theory but merely a "skema" indicating the nature of research which should be undertaken by re sear c--! worirovs in thei uncters uctnc.m, o.u 30 the persistence of polit i*.v.: systems. Court /...

6 m i VAN DER ME Well now that is theory, but now are you going to attack the approach that on this basis you can arrive at a conclusion at which he arrived, on his method of approach? MR. SOGrGOT; No, M*lord. You say you cannot draw an inference by following this type of reasoning that he has followed? MR. SOGGOT; That is so, M'lord..COURTi And are you going to lead evidence on that or are you going to argue on it? MR. SOGGOT; We will lead evidence, M'lord, and our attitude 10 is even given his diagnostic model, it does not help, that one in fact should do what anyone should do when you have a theory and that is test it, and what we propose to do is test his method, test his reasoning, and that, M'lord, is one of the reasons, it is the principal reason why these documents are tendered. Well I think in meeting you on this point I should order that no further documents should he produced at this stage otherwise we will be busy next year this time with the case, 20 MR. SOGGOT; Does Your Lordship say that with regard to the documents..(court intervenes) That you hand to this witness, I mean I do not want him to come here on Monday and hear that on Sunday evening you handed him another bundle of documents. MR. SOGGOT; No, M'lord, but what we do propose to do is tender to this witness two other speeches of Mr. Buthelezi and about other pages, that we can hand over not later than tomorrow, M'lord. MR. REES;. No, I must object to that, M'lord, if Your 30 Lordship looks at all these documents that have already been /...

7 VAN DDR MBRWU been given, they are all documents that have been made up long after this case started, now who says they are not going to select some others and who says they are not working in cahoots perhaps with these people who are making these speeches. (LAUGHTER) I do not know what my learned friend finds so hilarious about this, they are all involved in politics themselves. MU. SO.GrG-QTs M'lord, we resent that suggestion, that suggestion is bizarre and totally..mr. Rees intervenes) MR. REESs M'lord, the point I am mailing is that they 10 should confine themselves to these speeches they have given, or they should give the witness that which they have now. COURTs Yes. MR. PITMAJTs. M'lord, I just want to say that in so far there seems to be some sort of suggestion that we are trying to bedevil the trial and all sorts of things, I must reject that out of hand. M'lord, I had a certain number of documents which I was not quite sure what documents my learned friend Mr. Soggot was going to put to the witness. We have prepared ourselves independently, I want to say right away, 20 M'lord, that in view of his cross-examination most of mine has fallen away. There is very little left, as a. matter of fact, M'lord, I am not quite sure what I want to put 1to this witness at this moment, because I am not quite sure wna*c Mr. Soggot may have given to the witness. I think it largely coincides, and it really seems to me that as far as I am concerned there are two more speeches oi the same gentleman, which are much along the same lines with some differences though, that I wish to draw to the witness' attention, and there may be three or four other documents which each will 30 amount to about a third of a page, it is really very little

8 VAN DIHR MERWL that I want to put but I do not want to bind myself absolutely, I certainly do not intend to spring any surprise s upon him, I have none in mind, and I have no intention of preparing some other line of cross-examination now, but it just occurs to me for example that I may put some proposition!.s to him which he may deny, and I may say ; well, what about the writing of this sociologist or political scientist, and that in a sense might be a document, I do not want to bind myself not to produce such a thing, but that really in a sense falls in a different category. But I can assure 10 Your Lordship that I have no intentions of prolonging this c r o s s-examinati on. COURTt Yes, well how many documents have you, you see I am not going to allow the 50-page document of Mr. Soggot. He was allowed to cross-examine along these lines to test the ability of the witness to arrive at a conclusion on his symptoms. t/ «JL Now that does not mean to say that we must now canvass all the speeches that have been delivered in South Africa. So he has handed the witness a number of documents, we will confine ourselves to those documents. What are the 20 documents that you have? MR. PITHANs M'lord, I had a lot of documents but I do not propose to put those now..(court intervenes) COURT: Yes, but if you want this witness to look at documents, what quantity do you have, I do not want you so hand in Mr. Soggot's through the concession that I make to you. MR. PITMAN; No, I appreciate that, M'lord, as I VJ ></ difficulty is that I have not examined that list of documents that he has given, if I may just indicate chore are a j.ej jo speeches "by this man Chief Buthelezi, I thxrji tne om", I nad are / /

9 VAN DE'R MERVffi are largely covered by the ones Mr. Soggot gave him, I think there may be two more. There are some things from the Transkei, and there are some things from the Coloured Representative Council, and I have three newspaper cuttings which are as I say about a third or a quarter of a page eaoli. ffjyjr'p Yes, well I think we have dealt with Chief Buthelasi alreadjr, we have had his speech, I do not want to listen to all his speeches, what are the cuttings that you have. MR. PITMANs Well, they relate to the Coloured Representative Council and the Transkeian Legislative Assembly. 10 COURTi Well, how long are those reports? MR. PITMAN: Por example that is one, M'lord, they are not long. COURT: Well how many have you? MR. PITMAN: M lord, I think it will amount to about six different documents, but I just want to see there may only be three depending on what my learned friend has put in. COURT: Yes, but there must be some limit here, Mr. Pitman, >7 im 4 so I think I would like clarity as to what documents we axe going to belabour this poor witness with now, because I 20 am going to postpone the case until Monday, but now I do not want you to make it impossible for him to be ready on Monday by the quantity of documents you give him. MR. PITMAN; No, I understand that. COURT: Well, can you just make up your mind now as to what documents you want to hand him? MR. PITMAN: M'lord, may I suggest that the Court adjourn for a few minutes, so that I can just look at these documents and see what I have left. COURT ADJOURNS 30 COURT /...

10 COURT RESUMES; MR. ALL A WAY; VAN DER MERWE M'lord, what I have dono in the adjournment is as follows, I have prepared a list inthe form of an inventory of the documents which Mr. van der Merwe has already been given other than the exhibits which have already been handed in, that is of material that is in his possession. I have prepared a. supplementary list of documents which it is intended to hand to him as part of l?as further study so that he can prepare himself for them, M'lord, the" comprise five newspaper cuttings and nine other documents, 3.0 two of which are the speeches of Chief Buthelezi, other than the one already referred to, and the other documents are self-explanatory. M'lord, we have photostatic copies of all the newspaper cuttings, I have indicated to my learned friend we will make photostatic copies forthwith this afternoon of the materia.1 which my learned friend, Mr. Pitman, wishes to hand to the witness, and those are all the documents that, as I understand from my learned juniors, they would like this witness to familiarise himself with, for the purpose of testing his theory, najnely, that you see this 20 element and this element in terms of his "raamwerk13, it does not necessarily mean revolution. Well, what does Mr. Rees say about the documents, have you indicated to him? MR. REES; i in tm mi m t m m ~ iv n f ~ " Yes, M'lord, I have had a glance a,t the documents, some of them I have not seen, is that correct? MR. PITMAN; That is correct. CO U R T Well are they very lengthy, because if they are, for the protection of the witness I am not going to allow Gne./i. MR. REES; M'lord, that was the point I wanted to make, 30 ft- rn II j* that even this lot of documents that they gave the witness

11 VAN DIiR K3RUE this lot, the witness tells me it will be impossible for him to go through them properly in the time available. COURT: Yes, but now if I postpone the case till Monday, will he he able to do that? MR» RE iss M lord, that is the point, he doubts whether / he will be able to do justice to ail of them by Monday. If the Defence are prepared to select a few representative samples, as the State did with its documents, then it would serve the ends of justice better. M'lord, I would just like to state just now in the heat of the argument, I did not intend to say that these people are busy manufacturing the documents, the iooint I wanted to make was that this is the type of thing which can lend itself to abuse. I do not intend to go further than that. M 1lord, I think the Defence should decide, two or three of these documents can be representative of the points they want to J. v put, and that should be sufficient. Well, the Court should give you a reasonable opportunity, Mr. Allaway, to test the witness' testimony, but I do not think I should allow you people to abuse that right which I give you by sort of cluttering him with documents. lie is a person who is sacrificing his own time to be of assistance to the Court, he has other duties to perform, and I am only disposed to let you add the newspape cuttings which Mr. Pitman had in mind. MR. ATiTiAWAYs > ii m mm a m m t m nm im > M'lord, not the other documents which my learned friend Mr. Pitman, wants to deal with, because among them there are two speeches and several other matters? COURTï Yes, well I am not allowing that Buthelezi speech which is fifty pages, because you had an opportunity tc submit a document to the witness and you suomictea tne

12 VAN DER MERWE Buthelezi speech, and I assume that that is a representative document, otherwise you would have added other documents, and to allow you to continue handing fresh documents to the witness would cause undue hardship to the witness. I mean he has to prepare himself. MR. illlav/ay; M lord, my learned junior will indeed explain the reasons why he believes that this document is an important one, but as I said, M'lord, with respect, if wo are entitled to test this witness in terms of M'lord's ruling, we must test him properly..(court intervenes) 10 COURTo Yes, I assume that 2/ou realised that when 37'ou handed in the first bunch of documents. I mean that was not a growing realisation. MR. AJjLAWAY? Eo, M'lord, I have no doubt we appreciated it fully, but that was when my learned friend Mr. Soggot was on his feet, and Mr. Pitman has a separate cross--examination, so whilst my learned friend Mr. Soggot is on his feet, he cannot hand the witness documents which my learned friend Mr. Pitman is going to deal with, and that is why when this matter arose I took it upon myself as leading my learned 20 juniors, to resolve the ma/tter for once end for all, and to let the witness have all the documents, and, M'lord* we would trust that M'lord is not ruling at this stage that any other Buthelezi speeches are irrelevant, because according to information given to me by my learned juniors they are most relevant. So would it not be better in the circumstances if we give this witness all, and the only further material upon which we intend to test his tneorj7, ana M'lord, tne matter can be dealt with ad hoc during tne cross examinaoion. Well anyway he will have great difficulty in working 30 through those documents and qualixying niiiiseli, so a.- only

13 going to allow the newspaper cuttings which Hr. Pitman had in mind, because Mr. Soggot already had an opportunity to hand him documents, he has given him documents, so I am going to allow Mr. Pitman an opportunity to hand him his documents, but not Mr. Soggot's documents in a roundabout way..allay/ay; Well, M'lord, I give M'lord the assurance that no documents that my learned friend Mr. Soggot wanted to deal with have been given to Mr. Pitman so that Mr. Pitman can deal. with them, Mr. Pitman has his own documents and 10 wants to deal with them in his own way. COURTi Well I saw Mr. Soggot hand the document to Mr. Pitman. MR. ALLAWAY; Well, I had better let my learned juniors tell Your Lordship what was handed over, I can only say from my own knowledge, and I give M lord the assurance..(court intervenes) Well I have already given a ruling, only the newspaper cuttings may be added to the documents. MR. ALLAWAY; Which the witness already has, and no further 20 speeches? No further speeches. HR. ALT.AWAY; Well I know my learned friend Mr. Pitman would like to address argument to you on it, M'lord, and lie is better equipped to present that argument because he is the Counsel who is going to be cross-examining. May wo ask M'lord to put the ruling in the embryonic stage at this stage until you have heard him, M'lord.. Yes. MR. REES: M'lord, before we start I should make this point 30 I do not know whether they made it in the argument stage or

14 VAN DER MERWE in the negotiation stage this morning, but at some stage the Defence said they would be quite satisfied to dealonly with the Buthelezi speech, and then afterwards when it was decided that the matter will in fact be debated before Your Lordship, then they decided to debate all the documents. COURTs Well I gathered from Mr. Soggot1s indication that he would dispose of the speech first, and then address argument to Court later in respect of the other documents. Yes, Mr. Pitman? 10 MR. PITMAN; M lord, I have only two points I wish to make, the first is, M lord, that if Your Lordship should rule against me, of course Your Lordship is quite entitled to do so, but if Your Lordship should rule against me, it would mean in effect, M'lord, that I would be deprived of the right of putting in to the witness what I regarded as the two relevant Buthelezi speeches by virtue of my learned friend having put in one that he regarded as relevant. In- other words he deprives me in respect of my rights, because..(court intervenes) 20 Well when did you discover that that speech was so relevant, seeing that documents were already handed to the witness and you knew that documents were being handed to the witness so that he could qualify himself. MR. PITMAN;: M'lord, I discovered that when I received the speech I think about twelve days ago. And when were the documents handed to the witness? MR. PITMAN; I think yesterday, M'lord. Yes, well then why did you not hand the document to the witness? MR. PITMAN; No, but M'lord I can't hand documents to tno witness /... 30

15 VAN DER MíiRWh witness when my learned friend Hr. Soggot is cross examining the witness, in fact, M'lord, in a spirit of helpfulness I suggested earlier this morning that if my learned friend were going to allow Hr. van. der Merwe or suggest that Mr. van der Merwe has more time, that I should in order to prevent any further delays, then arrange that my documents should also he handed to him, that I decided this morning. COURTi How long is that speech? MR, PITMAN: Well, M lord, this one speech is 39 pages and the one speech is 21 pages. M'lord, as I understood 10 the witness, Mr. van der Merwe..(Court intervenes) COURT: Is it the same type of speech? MR. PITMAN: No, he becomes more explicit with regard to some of the very points that the witness spoke about, for example the non-expression of Whites, and the fact that he did not directly express those things, how, M'lord, I thought the witness would want, that it would assist him to be able to see some more of the background of this sort of speech by this Chief Minister. Perhaps the witness could he asked, M'lord, whether this would render his job 20 impossible or whether it would assist him. HC7': Mnr. van der Merwe, sal dit behulpsaam woes om not toegang te he tot twee verdere toesprake van Buthelezi om u h groter geleentheid te gee om h oordeel te ve..i. oor die oorsnronklike een waar oor u gevra is alreeds? -- judole, in n sekere sin mag dit nut tig wees, in die sin dat dit se ere agtergrond mag verskaf. hit is natuurlik baie leesstoi? -- Jit is dle probleem, hdele. As x nou soiets net vlugtig deurgaan om te jfy! of 30 dit afwyk, en dan kan u net sê of dit dieselfde soort ;n r'-'.nrri / 'I

16 _ 2509 ~ VAN DER MERWEi witness when my learned friend Mr. Soggot is cross-examining the witness, in fact, M'lord, in a spirit of helpfulness I suggested earlier this morning that if my learned friend were going to allow Hr. van der Merwe or suggest that Mr. van der Merwe has more time, that I should in order to prevent any further delays, then arrange that my documents should also be handed to him, that I decided this morning. COURT ; How long is that speech? MR. PITMAN; Well, M lord, this one speech is 3S pages and the one speech is 21 pa,ges. M lord, as I miderstood 10 the witness, 1%*. van der Merwe..(Court intervenes) Is it the same type of speech? MR. PITMAN; No, he becomes more explicit with regard to some of the very points that the witness spoke about, for example the non-expression of 'Whites, and the fact that he did not directly express those things. Now, M'lord, I thought the witness would want, that it would assist him to be able to see some more of the background of this sort of speech by this Chief Minister. Perhaps the witness could be asked, M'lord, whether this would render his job 20 impossible or whether it would assist him. HOP; Mnr. van der Merwe, sal dit behulpsaam wees om net toegang te he tot twee verdere toesprake van Buthelezi ora u 'n groter geleentheid te gee om 'n oordeel te vel oor die oorspronklike een waaroor u gevra is alreeds? - Edele, in ;n sekere sin mag dit nuttig wees, in die sin dat dit sekere agtergrond mag verskaf. Dit is natuurlik baie leesstof? -- Dit is die probleem, Edele. As u nou soiets net vlugtig deurgaan om te kyk of 30 dit afwyk, en dan kan u net sê of dit dieselfde soort toespraak /.,.

17 toespraak is en of dit afwyk?-- ïidele, maar ek ding nio ek kan!n dokument net vlugtig deur gaan en myself dan op grond daarvaan aan kruisverhoor blootstel nie, in dié sin dat as ek n dokument in kruisverhoor moet vernntwoord dan moet ek dit behoorlik bestudeer het, want anderstor is daar dalle net iets wat my by die vlugtige lees ontgaan het, en wat ek dan buite rekening gelaat het. So as ek aan kruisverhoor onderworpe moet word daaroor dan in ek bevrees dan wil ek dit graag bestudeer. Well I will allow you to submit one more Buthelezi speech, you can choose which of the two. ICR. PITMANi And Your Lordship in effect disallows the other Yes, I mean I must protect this witness, I cannot just allow you to offload documents on him as the case proceeds. MR. PITMAN; If that is Your Lordship s ruling, then I will abide by it. You are then only interested in that one that I om allowing and the press cuttings? MR. PITMANi Yes, M lord, as I have informed M lord I have seven cuttings which are not of any length at all. COURT: Yes, well if they are not lengthy then it is a different matter. MR. SOG-G-OT; M lord, do I understand that Your Lordship has rules that I am not allowed to put anymore documents( No, you have already had an opportunity, you have already handed him a lot of documents, and you were given an opportunity to cross-examine him on a Buthelezi speech already. HR. 3GG-G-0Tt_ No, I appreciate that, M'lord, we merel;, wanted clarity on Your Lordship s ruling.

18 v a n diír m d r í /l toespraak is en of dit afwyk?-- Edele, maar ek ding nio ek kan!n dokument net vlugtig deurgaan en myself dan op grond daarvaan aan kriiisverhoor blootstel nie, in dié sin dat as ek n dokument in kruisverhoor moet verantwoord dan moet ek dit behoorlik bestudeer het, want anderster is daar dalle net iets wat my by die vlugtige lees ontgaan Iiet, en wat ek dan buite rekening gelaat het. So as ek aan kruisverhoor onderworpe moet word daaroor dan is ek bevrees dan wil ek dit graag bestudeer. Well I will allow you to submit one more 10 Buthelezi speech, you can choose which of the two. MR. PITMAN; And Your Lordship in effect disallows the others? Yes, I mean I must protect this witness, I cannot just allow you to offload documents on him as the case proceeds. MR. PITMAN; If that is Your Lordship's ruling, then I will abide by it. You are then only interested in that one that I am allowing and the press cuttings? MR. PITMAN; Yes, M lord, as I have informed M'lord I have 20 seven cuttings which are not of any length at all.. Yes, well if they are not lengthy then it is a different matter. MR. SOG-G-OT; M'lord, do I understand that Your Lordship has rules that I am not allowed to put anymore documents' No, you have already had an opportunity, you hav G already handed him a lot oi documents, anc- you were given an opportunity to cross-examine him on a Buthelezi speech already. MR. 30G-G-0T;, No, I appreciate that, M'lord, we merely 30 wanted clarity on Your Lordship's ruling. Court /

19 HR» PITMAN: H lord, in regard to the documents I have, we have undertaken to let him have them this afternoon, I do not have copies of all the documents. In fact wliat Hr. Soggot was tendering to me just now were some copies of two of which I have copies, the others I haven t got copies of, but I irill have copies made here today and givo them to the witness. CjOU?,T: Do I follow you correctly, it is not Mr. Soggot s speech that you are now handing in? MR. PITHAN: No, M lord, it is not his speech. CCuR'T; Well then in that event the case will have to stand adjourned until Monday. Sal u u bes probeer, mnr. Van dor Merwe, ek is jammer dat u nou belaai word..(getuie kom tussenbei) - Ja, Edele, ek mag dit moeilik vind om by Maandag reeds volledig - ek meen ongelukkig is dit so dat tl mens ook ander verpligtinge het, daar is ongelukkig no Jū twee werksda.e..(hof kom tussenbei) HOEc Is dit nie moontlik dat hulle u kan vrystel sodat u meer aandag aan die saak kan bestee nie? -- Edele, daar is ongelukkig party soorte goed wat nie herhalend van aard is wat n mens veronderstel is om aan deel te neem wat dit tl bietjie moeilik rnaak. Kan u u miskien dan toespits op sekere aspekte, of n sekere.deel, en dan as ons nio klaarkry nie, dan sal ons maar weer miskien moet uitstel om vir u weer!n k.ns 'bo gee, maar doen u bes? Ek sal so maak, l/iele, o;iio druiki MR. ALLAWAY: M lord, rather than to trouble M'lord bo possibly deal with the matt is not ready, would it not be safer to postpone unti. 1 Tuesday in the likelihood of his be in/; ready. I tlii.

20 would perhaps be a fair compromise, M'lord. -- n Dag blr sal ongetwyfeld van hulp wees, Sdele. *.fj r- «1* q r**. > *>» 1 - r> S 4" V,.">% ' - P V r»' a 1 ^ a-j 4 * ' ^ > >' ^ > tc*, o<4rx d -L v ivc * c ^ I 1 vcjticl0jl ', *** * * ^ l X l\.c*xl 0. v. on&p!uvlr i x? p T.TQQvVkAv ^ >as ^ o *1 ^ m *$4* -^,-,^1- s > ^xa_c lvclcijluu1 a l t 3j ILvv>?-2 d_l v íhcigjv Q.lO ivlull^o baie beter. Het 11 enire fees waar, Knr. Kees? I-jrl. HiiES; Edele, ja, die Verdediging het nou die kanse cm hierdie aan te toets, ek wil nog aan die 'uuid doen dat hulle uit al hierdie massa dokumente wat hulle reeds ingehandig het, dat. hulle cia clx* t 'n verteenwoordigende paar uitpoek, hulle kan die man toets, hulle het hulle deskuadige; wat hier sit, en hulle deskundiges kan dan vir lion sê waar die Staatsgetuie verkeerd is. Dit is myns insiens nie nodig, met respek, om al hierdie massa van dokumente deur te gaan om te wys hier is 'n ou puntjie en daar is ;n ou puntjie, hulle toets mos die sisteem, en dan kan hulle mense net so ma.klik kom wys in daardie dokument staan dit en in daardie dokument staan dat, dit lyk vir my hulle hele opsot hier is om hulle eie deskundiges uit die getuiebank uit te hou. Now isn't that a fair suggestion, Hr. Allaway, that with the assistance of your experts you select the representative documents out of the number that you have handed to the witness. You see, I.im keen to got on with the case and see how far we can get by the V*it)1 December. MR. ALLAWAY: M lord, the Accused arc most keen for the oaso to go on, with respect, and the trouble is that fir. v 01 dor Merwe has selected, I third:, I speak subject to correction, M'lord, my learned junior says over 200 passages from V;iriou documents, and..(court intervone r0 Yes, but Mr. Rees' point is a stmn- on; no

21 o c n Y D - ' there is duplication, why don't you select the representative documents and let him deal with the representative ones, ME. ALit-i.tAY; M'lord, I can only go on what my learned juniors inform me, and that is that there is no duplication, Yes, well can't you submit it to your experts to find out whether on their view there is duplication? MR. ALLAWAYs M'lord, I understand that these documents havo T i T ' been selected in conjunction with our experts, and they believe that those documents ought to be put to this witness as a proper test of his theory with which they 1C' disagree, and will testify about as to why they disagree. It seems that what one is really debating at this stage is the amount of time that Mr. van der Merwe requires - my respectful suggestion is, M'lord, he anticipated a week., (Court intervenes) COURT: But he says that he has got other duties, MR. ALLAWAY: One appreciates that, M'lord, and all we can say is this, that whilst we appreciate he has got other duties, the extra dajr according to him would probably give him enough time, and I think the best thing to do, the 20 practical solution is to postpone the case until Tuesday in the firm hope that we will be able to proceed on that day. COURTS m- i i O' Well in the circumstances the case will be postponed until Tuesday. COURT AJDJOUlílíS /VMD.

22 Collection Number: AD1719 State v S Cooper and 8 others. PUBLISHER: Publisher:- Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand Location:- Johannesburg 2012 LEGAL NOTICES: Copyright Notice: All materials on the Historical Papers website are protected by South African copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, or otherwise published in any format, without the prior written permission of the copyright owner. Disclaimer and Terms of Use: Provided that you maintain all copyright and other notices contained therein, you may download material (one machine readable copy and one print copy per page) for your personal and/or educational non-commercial use only. People using these records relating to the archives of Historical Papers, The Library, University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg, are reminded that such records sometimes contain material which is uncorroborated, inaccurate, distorted or untrue. While these digital records are true facsimiles of paper documents and the information contained herein is obtained from sources believed to be accurate and reliable, Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand has not independently verified their content. Consequently, the University is not responsible for any errors or omissions and excludes any and all liability for any errors in or omissions from the information on the website or any related information on third party websites accessible from this website. DOCUMENT DETAILS: Document ID:- AD1719-Vol43 Document Title:- Volume 43, Pages