K O'REILLY

Transcription

1 K O'REILLY (incomplete). -- Die ding van met die skroewedraaier uitbreek kom - het te doen met uitwissing. Dit het nie met.. (intervenes). What is to be broken out with a screwdriver has to do with the erasures. oorgetape. Yes. -- En hierdie band is nie uitgewis nie, hy is Uitwis is soos wat MID met ons tapes doen, hom skoonmaak. This tape has not been erased. What happened is there has been recording over recordings that existed. Yes. One knows this..(intervenes). (10 An erasure is what is done for us by MID. Yes. One knows this when you take an ordinary music tape and you want to prevent that accidentally being recorded over, you break this - there is a place where you can actually do something to it to prevent it from being erased. Isn't it? Hmmm. Isn't it so. And that is what this talks about on page 15 of the manual. -- Dis reg. That is right. But that is not what we are concerned with here. -- (20 Nee. Here we are concerned with what you say is accidental taping over. -- Over. Normally when you tape over something that is on a tape it erases what is there before and substitutes what you now tape. -- Dis reg. That is right. That is correct. Would you have a look at these - would you have a look at these three tapes, numbered 2, 3 and 4. Are those the three tapes which would have been used according(30 to/...

2 K " 559 0IREILLY to the markings on them on the 17th and 18th of June of this year? -- Ja. Yes. Whose writing appears on those tapes? -- Dis myne. It is mine. And what is stuck on is a sticker with the appropriate date and description? -- Dis reg. That is right. If you re-use tapes, would the previous sticker be removed or would you simply stick a new sticker over it? -- (10 Dit hang van MID af. Hulle maak hom skoon, so dit is hulle besluit of hulle n nuwe een bo-oor wil plak en of hulle die ou een wil aftrek en n nuwe een opplak. Maar soos ek vir u ges het, die tapes wat hulle skoonmaak merk hulle met daardie vertikale met die horisontale lyne oor dit. So dit is streng hulle besluit wat hulle doen. This would depend on MID. Whenever they clean tapes they would either decide to put on another sticker, remove the old one, or use the same sticker but what I said, they would give us an indication that a tape has been cleaned is drawing those (20 lines that I earlier on referred to. I'm sorry we seem to have found another one, No. 1 as well relates to the 17th and 18th, Boipatong. -- Hmmm. Now those are TDK-120 tapes. Are you able to say from looking at them now, whether they were new tapes when you used them on those particular days or whether they were re-used tapes? -- Dit sal ek nou nie vir jou kan s nie, dit hang af van wat MID, of hulle n nuwe plakker opgeplak het en of hulle die ou plakker op gelos het. Ek sal nie vir u kan s of dit n nuwe tape was nie. * (30 INTERPRETER/

3 K " 560 " 0 'REILLY I would not be able to tell you this because it would depend on what MID did, whether they removed the sticker and put on a new sticker. Is there anything on those tapes which would indicate whether they were new or re-used tapes? -- Nee. No. Looking at them as I have done very briefly, there does not seem to be any sticker underneath, over which you pasted your sticker. -- Uh-uh. So they could well have been new tapes on those particular(10 days? -- Dit kon nuwe tapes gewees het of dit kan wees dat ek die MID sticker afgetrek het. TOLK:..dit kon nuwe tapes gewees het? -- Ja, dit kon of dit kon nie. These could have been new tapes, it could perhaps be that I might have removed the MID stickers and put on new stickers. Where do you obtain your tapes from? -- (Mr Kuny continues). Where are they bought? -- Nee, ons kry hulle van MID af nog in hulle plastiese oortreksels, so dit is splinternuwe (20 tapes wat ons van MID kry. Ons het ook n aantal van hulle van Krugersdorp, ABS gekry wat ook nog in hulle plastiese houers was. We get the tapes from MID and they come in the plastic covers. They are brand-new tapes that we get. We also have received tapes from Krugersdorp. -- Ja, ABS. What is MID? -- Misdaad Inte 11 igensiediens. Dit is soos ons in die ou tyd veiligheid gehad het, dit is hulle nuwe naam. It is the - MID is the Crime Intelligence (30 Services/...

4 K " 0 'REILLY Services. It is services such as the services we used to have in the past. (Van die sekuriteit?) -- Veiligheid. The security services. Now, I understand that this machine has the facility to record automatically the date and the precise time of each call? -- Ek verstaan ook nou eers sol I have now understood that too. Well, whe'n you say: Nou eers, do you mean you have only just learnt that? -- Ons was nie bewus van die feit dat - kyk, hy slaan die tyd bo uit op die masjien self. Ons was nie (10 bewus van die feit dat hy hom op die tape ook uitslaan nie. Ons het nie - dit was nie vir ons belangrik nie aangesien ons self hom merk met elke dag se tyd en ons hom baie noukeurig merk daarom maak dit nie saak nie want, ek bedoel ons het die regte tyd daar. No, but..(intervenes). I haven't got all of it. -- Okay. Wat word hier oor geslaan, die tyd..? (DISCUSSION BETWEEN WITNESS AND INTERPRETER). The dates on the machine are printed on the tape but we are not able to see where the dates are (20 printed on the tape. Yes. -- Nou, ons doen - ons plak as ons hom uithaal n sticker op wat ons die tyd opsit. En ons doen dit baie baie akkuraat. All we do is when removing a tape, put on a sticker and we would also put the time, the time of the removal of the tape and this we do very accurately. Yes, sure. You put on the date, for example the 17th of June and you put the time that it is removed from the machine but that is all that is recorded on the tape itself. -- Hmmm.(30 INTERPRETER/

5 K O'REILLY Yes? Not the details of each call and each radio message and the time of those messages. That is automatically recorded by the machine. -- Ja, ons was nie bewus van daardie feit gei wees nie. Soos ek vir u se, hierdie masjien is vir ons n totaal-en-al nuwigheid. We were not aware of that because you see such as I told you earlier, this machine was just something new to us. -- Maar wanneer n berig deurgegee word sal die persoon wat dit deurgee, s "Tyd van Voorval" byvoorbeeld 10:00, of soietsi^.10 So deurentyd op die bandjie kom die tyd tog voor in radio gesprekke. When a message would be put through the person doing this would also give the time (die tyd van die voorval?) -- Voorval. Of the incident. This would be in the recording. Yes, but if you want to check accurately when a particular message was received, this machine automatically records the time, precise time of that message as we now know isn't that so? -- J a, j a. Yes. (20 And what you are telling us is that until this moment, or until today, you did not know that? -- Nee, want ons het nog nie nodig gehad om hierdie bande, soos ek reeds vroeer vir u ges het, te gebruik nie. Yes, because we had had no need earlier to use these tapes, like I said earlier on. Doesn't the manual tell you this? -- Ja, ek glo hy wys dit maar ek glo nie ek het soveel ag daarop geslaan nie. I think the manual does indicate this but I don't think I paid much notice to that. (30 M R /

6 K O'REILLY And surely the person who instructed you in the use of this machine and its finer points, must have said to you: Not only can you record on both sides of the tape but this machine will automatically log every message, every call with precision? -- Nee, hy het dit nie vir my ges nie. No, he did not say that to me. And you never looked at the manual to see that this was so? -- Nee, ek het die manual deurgelees maar as u so n dik boek deurlees, jy gaan nie alles onthou wat jy gelees het nie. (10 I did read through the manual but you see, if one reads through such a thick book, you are not always going to remember everything you have read. And that time and date is displayed on the tape recorder itself, on the machine, on the top right-hand corner? -- Dis reg. That is right. You were aware of that. -- Dis reg. That is right. Did you ever have to set it, or was it automatic? (20 -- Die dag toe hulle hom gelnstalleer het, het hulle slegs die tyd opgesit. When they installed this machine, it is only the time that they set. -- Verskeie kragonderbrekings het egter die tyd verander. And the power-breakages have - numerous power-breakages have changed the time. Yes, but..(intervenes). -- Dan het ons maar weer die tyd so gestel. And we have had to set the time. (30 \

7 K _ REILLY Yes, there is a key-pad on the front of the machine which provides for re-setting the time. -- Dis reg. That is right. And you knew how to do that? -- Ja. Yes. And you in fact did that whenever there was a power failure? -- Ja. Yes. MR KUNY-: Why? -- Dit is soos n horlosie! Jy stel hom as hy gaan staan. " (10 It is like a watch. You set it, but it can stop. Yes, certainly, but why was it important to do it on a tape-recorder? -- Omdat baie ouens het hom as n horlosie gebruik. Because many people were using it as a watch. Yes. And you in fact would set it yourself, and you knew how to set it? -- My kaptein en ekself het gestel. It was set by myself and by my captain. -- Dit is nie n ding wat jy elke dag gaan agterkom as sy tyd honderdpersent - of sy tyd honderd-persent reg is nie. Maar die kere (20 wanneer dit wel werklik tot ons aandag gekom het, het ons hom reggemaak. This is not something that one would be aware of every day, the correctness of the time. But whenever we became aware of the time and it was to be set, we would do that. So it showed time and date? -- Die datum was van die begin af nooit gestel nie. The date was never set, from the beginning. -- By die - deur die tegniese persone nie. By the technicians. -- So ons het glad nie aan die datum(30 geraak/

8 O'REILLY K geraak nie omdat hulle hom aanvanklik nie ingestel het nie. We therefore did not interfere with the date because they had not set the date initially. So you clocked the time and you would re-set it if it was necessary? -- Ja. Yes. And on the 17th and 18th of June, was that time set and working correctly? -- Ek sal nie vir u kan s nie. I would not be able to tell you that. -- Ek per- soonlik sou in elk geval nie daardie dag na die tyd gekyk het (10 nie want daar was belangriker dinge op daardie stadium as om na die tyd te kyk. I would not have looked at the time personally on that day because there were more important things to give attention to than the time. Which day are you talking about? -- Die dag na Boipating se storie, so ek kan vir u amper met redelikheid si ek het nie daardie dag aan die tyd gestel nie, so as hy vir n dag of wat al verkeerd was, sou ek dit nie agtergekom het nie. The day of the Boipatong incidents. You see, if(20 there had been anything wrong.with the timing that day, then I would not have noticed this. Well, on the 17th there was no reason why you should not have noticed that, before you went off duty? -- U kan dit nie se nie. U weet nie, ek het dalk die 17de iets anders gedoeni You cannot say that because you do not know, whether I had something else to do on the 17th. MR KUNY : Yes, that may be but what.. (intervenes). -- Ek was dalk1heel dag uit die kantoor met skietoefening dan sou ek (3C ook/

9 K O'REILLY ook nie na die tape gekyk het nie. Na die tyd gekyk het nie. I could perhaps have been out of the office to go and do shooting practices and I would not have had the time to look at the watch. In other words, you have got no particular recollection of what happened on the 17th? -- Nee. No. Nor perhaps would you have a particular recollection of how you changed the tapes around on that day? -- Nee. No. -- Alhoewel ek'elke middag tussen die tyd- (10 perk van 15:00 en 16:15 die tapes moes ruil, anders sou daar nie n tape gewees het nie. Although every afternoon between 15:00 and 16:15 I would have had to change the tapes (andersins sou daar nie tapes gewees het nie?) -- Ja. Because otherwise there would be no tapes. -- En sou hy gestop het, sou hy almal mal geskree het, so hy was definitief omgeruil, so ek kan vir u met sekerheid s ek het die tape omgeruil, ek kan net nie vir u s wanneer nie. No, I..(intervenes). (20 If it had stopped, then it would have made such a noise to make everybody mad. Yes, I accept the fact that you turned the tapes around or that you changed the tapes. What I am putting to you is that you cannot say at this stage, whether, when you. went off duty on the afternoon of the 17th, you actually turned the tapes over or whether you put it new tapes? -- Nee, ek kan vir u s ek het nuwe bande ingesit want ek het dit dan die volgende oggend omgeruil kant "B" toe voordat ek dit uitgehaa1 het teen die aand se kant, so ek het nuwe tapes (3( ingesit/...

10 K " O' REILLY ingesit die 17de. I would tell you that I did put in new tapes on the 17th because the following morning I changed them over. How do you remember that? Because I had changed them over, I must have put in new tapes. How do you remember that on the morning of the 18th you changed them over, in all the chaos that must have existed on the morning of the 18th? -- Want ek het spesifiek my kaptein gekontak op die radio en dit kan ek onthou, dat ek (10 vir hom gevra het: Moet ek dit los om hulle om te draai en hulle net so bire, of moet ek maar laat die Boipatong-stories die hele ding volmaak. Toe si hy maak die* tape vol en merk hom en doen dan soos jy altyd. So dit is hoekom ek weet. You see, I know because I specifically phoned my captain that morning, wanting to know from him whether I should turn them over or remove them and he had said that I could leave them on (en dat die Boipatong-storie maar aanloop?) -- Hmmm. And have the Boipatong story continued on them. (20 Who "is this, Captain Roos? -- Dit is reg. Yes, it is. Where was he at the time? -- Hy was buite op sy voertuig. He was out in his vehicle. So you communicated with him by radio? -- Dis reg. CHAIRMAN: That is right. And what - wat was die inhoud van daardie gesprek min of meer soos u dit onthou? -- Ek het hom gekontak en gevra of ek die bande moet uithaal, toe se hy sodra die bande eers (30

11 K ' 568 " 0 1REILLY vol is moet ek dit verwyder. Dit is hoekom - en omdat ek weet die radio's was so besig gewees, en die telefone dat ek spesifiek vir n tyd weet ek moes tweemaal op die dag moes ek verwyder, moes ek omruil en toe die tweede keer verwyder. Dit is hoekom ek weet ek moes die vorige dag dit nuiit ingesit het. I had contacted him, wanting to know from him whether I should remove the tapes or just turn them overv< Now he had said I should just turn them over, and because we had been busy, I knew that I had had to remove tapes (is dit die (10 bande, of - u het gepraat van telefoon?) -- Nee, nee. Ek si die telefone en die radio's was besig so daarom het ek geweet die bande is al taamlik vol teen daardie tyd. I had knowledge of the tapes as possibly having to be full by that time because the telephones had been very busy. VOQRSITTER: So verstaan ek dat kaptein Roos onder die indruk was dat u ook, dat u kan op beide kante van die band..? -- Ja...opneem? -- Ja. Kyk, kaptein..(tussenbei). Yes, Captain Roos was also of the impression that the tapes could be used on both sides. -- K.aptein Roos en ek (20 is die enigste mense met sleutels, so ons is die enigste mense wat ooit bande geruil het en ons albei het dit presies dieselfde wyse gedoen. We were - this Captein Roos and myself were the only people who had the keys and so we were the only people who could change these tapes. We were doing - we were changing the tapes in a similar manner. And I presume that that conversation you had with Captain Roos would also be recorded on a tape? -- Wei, dit sal nou definitief wees op die kant wat ons toe nou afgevee het (30

12 K _ Q 1REILLY n&, want dit is dan nou voor die ruiling wat ek vir hom gevra het, moet ek omdraai of wat, so die gesprek sal.dan mos nou deur die - die oomblik wat ek dit omgedraai het, weggevee wees. That would have been on the side that got erased because this conversation would have taken place on the side that was still on before I turned them over. Why was it necessary for you to contact Captain Roos and ask him this. You were after all in control of this operations - radio operation room? -- (Mr Kuny continues). (10 Why did you have to ask him whether you could turn the tapes around? -- Kaptein Roos en ek het die verstandhouding ons raadpleeg mekaar voor ons n ding doen. Nie enige ding nie, maar iets so belangrik soos n tape wat ek later geweet het sal belangrik wees vir n hofsitting, gaan ek - vra ek vir hom. We had this understanding with Captain Roos that we would contact each other for everything that we were to do, not an insignificant thing but a tape such as this one which could have served as important evidence at a later stage. In a court case. -- Ja. (20 Ja, in a court case, I had to contact him. So you appreciated on the morning of the 18th, just how important these tapes might be. -- Ja. Dit is hoekom die bandmasjien daar is, om mos te toon wat gebeur het. Yes, this is why the recording machine was there. It was there to be able to indicate what happened. And you knew that you had in your machine tapes which recorded everything that had taken place since you knocked off on the afternoon of the 17th? -- Ja. Yes. _ (30 MR/

13 K REILLY I am still not clear why you then had to phone Captain Roos and ask him what to do with these tapes. -- U sal nie verstaan nie want u werk nie direk so onder hom soos wat ek onder hom werk nie. Om die waarheid te s, daardie dag as ek wou badkamer toe gaan, sou ek hom ook eers gevra het of ek op daardie stadium die radio kan los, so dit het.. (tussen- bei). You would not understand because you do not work as directly under his command as was our case. You see, on that day, even if I had to go to the ladies' I would have had to (10 ask him. -- Voordat ek n belangrike besluit neem oor n ding wat later van belang is, dink ek dit is half etiket dat jy jou bevelvoerder ook net eers raadpleeg. (Voordat u n belangrike..?) -- Besluit neem oor iets wat belangrik is. Now,' I think it is only etiquette to contact and speak to one's commanding - or confirm with one's commanding officer before one does such an important task as..(so n belangrike ding soos..) -- Soos om die bande te verwissel wat later getuienis is. (20 The changing of tapes that could later be used as evidence. But if you at that stage had no idea in your mind that by recording on the other side of the tape, you would be erasing what had previously been recorded, then why was this a particularly important decision, it is something that you would have done in the normal course of your work? -- Ek het nie geweet wat gaan die tydsduur wees want daardie oggend 07:30 toe word ons al toegesak deur al wat generaal is in hierdie land en ek het nie geweet wat gaan die tydsduur wees.. (tussenbei) (Tydsduur van..?) -- Voordat hulle vir my gaan (30 vra/...

14 K O'REILLY vra vir daardie bande nie. So hulle kon vir my daardie oggend 08:00 gese het hulle wil dit he. VOORSITTER: Stadig, sersant, stadig asseblief. Gee die tolk n kans om..(onvoltooid). I did not know what duration of time - what the duration of time would be before I was asked for these tapes because what also happened on that day is that all the generals in this country were there, they were coming down on us there. (LAUGHTER). -- So h.ulie almal het begin stukke vra van die vorige aand soos die berigvorms, en al daardie goed. (10 They were all asking for documents of the previous night, things such as report forms. -- VB-afdrukke en daardie goed. So op daardie stadium het ek gedink dat hulle gaan onmiddellik die bande wil he wat in dit is. Occurrence book recordings, and I though at the time that they might also want to have the tapes. Well, that is exactly the point: Surely they did want to have the tapes. If they were there from early the next morning looking for every bit of evidence as to what had come in the previous night, the tapes were your most obvious (20 piece of evidence. -- Hmmm. Surely they asked for the tapes? MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, may I just be permitted to correct one thing that was mis-interpreted. I did not think it was important at the time. The witness used the expression: "Die volgende dag was al wat n generaal was in die land op my gewees" nie "by my gewees" nie. -- Ja. Well, if that is - let us get clear. What time did you come on the next morning? -- 07:30. Half-past seven. (30

15 K O'REILLY And even if everybody was not in the control room I take it that there must have been messages for you or whoever was on duty that all the records of the previous night must be made available. -- Nee, van regoor die land het die top- -4 bestuur het na die eenheid toe gekom. nie..(intervenes). / Di wat nie daar was (Die wat..?) -- Top management of the police. (Het na die eenheid gekom?) -- Ja, came to our unit. The top management had come throughout the country to our unit. (10 Yes. -- Die wat nie fisies daar was nie was telefonies kort-kort met ons in verbinding. And those that were not physically there were in contact with us. They were frequently on the telephone. -- As u reg onthou het hulle deur die nag 17 lyke gevind. Die volgende..(tussenbei). Now if you remember well, 17 dead bodies had been found during the night. -- Die volgende oggend het ons nog steeds lyke gevind. And bodies, dead bodies were still being discovered even (20 the following morning. -- So die persone wat daar was, was nie onmiddellik al in n ondersoekhoedanigheid nie alhoewel hulle al begin afskrifte neem het van die goed en als was hulle nog steeds besig..(tussenbei). The people who came were not coming in the capacity of investigators but they were still busy. -- 0m die..(tussenbei). MNR KUNY: U het gese iets van afskrifte? -- Ja. Wat bedoel u? -- Hulle het toe al gevra van die vorige nag se gebeure, afskrifte van VB's en berigvorms en daardie tipe (30 goed /.

16 K _ O'REILLY goed. They had already been asking for the previous night's occurrences. Yes. Copies, they were asking for copies of occurrence books. -- Ja. Yes, and? Why - sorry, what else did they ask for? -- Op daardie stadium het niemand, maar niemand nog vir die bande gevra nie. At that stage nobody had asked for the tapes. (10 Didn't you or Captain Roos think that the tapes should be made available to the people who were looking for the documentation? -- Ek het pertinent aan hulle genoem dat daar bande is en dat ek dit in die kluis vir veilige bewaring gesit het. I had pertinently mentioned to them that there are tapes and that I had put the tapes for safety into the safe. But you hadn't. -- Dit is die aand toe die.. (tussenbei) But you had not, on the morning of the 18th of June you (20 had not put the tapes in the safe. -- Nee. You had turned them around and left them in the machine. -- Ja. Why didn't you take them out and give them to the people who were looking for the information? -- Want niemand het vir die bande gevra op daardie stadium nie en e k..(intervenes). It was because nobody had at that stage asked for tapes. -- Ons het die bande toe voltooi die aand of whenever, na aan die aand wat ek die tapes getape het het ek dit in die kluis gesit en dit is toe aan die mense daar genoem (3C dat/ \

17 K O'REILLY dat die bande is in die kluis. We had completed these tapes or the tapes had been - showed up and I had taken them out and put them into the safe (en u het toe ges dat daar bande is?) -- Ek het aan hulle ges dat daar bande is. I then also made mention that there were tapes. When did you make mention of that, for the first time? -- Die eerste keer wat ek vir hulle ges& het van die bande was nadat ek dit in die kluis gesit het, het ek gesl ek het dit in die kluis gesit. * (10 I first made mention of these tapes after I had put them into the safe. I said that I had put them into the safe. When did you put them into the safe? -- Wanneer hulle klaar was. nie. When was that? -- Ek kan nie vir u n spesifieke tyd gee This was when they were full. -- Dit was wanneer hulle klaar was, het ek hulle uitgehaal en - maar toe ek hulle uitgehaal het het ek hulle onmiddellik in die kluis gaan sit. (20 It was when they were full, I cannot give you a specific time. When they were full, I immediately put them into the safe. So can I just get clarity before I leave this point. On the morning of the 18th, when you came to work you had all the top brass in the police force descending and asking for information and documentation about the previous night. Is that what you are saying? -- Dis reg, en toe het dit ook aangegaan toe het ons mos nog n klomp lyke gevind. Yes, that is so, but so it went on, more dead bodies/

18 K " O'REILLY bodies were found. -- So op daardie stadium het hulle nog nie so intens die ding ondersoek soos wat hy agterna ondersoek is nie want toe het die ding nog aangegaan. We 11..(intervenes). They did not at that stage intensively investigate this whole thing, but they did investigate afterwards. Yes, and on the 18th, none of these senior officers asked for tapes, listened to tapes and nor did you think it necessary to give them the tapes? -- Nee. Yes. -- Op n stadium is daar gevra: Is die - di 10 tape is aan n&? Toe si ek ja. So dit is die enigste verwysing wat daar was na die band, dis..(tussenbei). At some stage there was a question as to whether the tape was on, and I said yes. That was the only reference to the tape. Question from who? -- Ek sal nie met sekerheid kan si nie, dit was een van die offisiere van ABS wat gewys het na die bandmasjien toe s hy: Die tape loop n? Toe si ek ja. I would not be able to say precisely who it was. It was one of the officers of the ISU who wanted to (20 know whether the tape was on and I said yes. So they were aware of the fact that all the previous night's conversations would have been taped? -- Ja. Yes. When were you asked to hand over the tape for the first time? -- Dit was omtrent - ek sal nie vir jou spesifiek kan s nie, ek het n aantekening daarvan gemaak, omtrent n week later gewees wat adjudant Deetlef dit by my kom kry het van die ondersoekspan. It was after about a week thereafter. I do have(30 a /

19 K O'REILLY a recording thereof. I cannot tell you now, off-hand. This was when Warrant-Officer Deetlefs came for the tapes. Had you listened to the tapes by that stage? -- Nee. No. Have you ever listened to these tapes? -- Nee. No. So you do not know whether - what is on these tapes you do not know at all what is on these particular tapes? -- Wei, soos ek verstaan uit die koerante en so aan is daar as (10 i gevolg van die oor-tape, n deel uitgesny. maar ek het self nie geluister nie. What I understand from the newspaper reports is that some portions have been erased as a result of the rerecording. And when did you learn, for the very first time that there had been these so-called erasures? -- Gistermiddag. It was yesterday afternoon. Did anybody between yesterday and the time that these tapes were handed to you come to see you and speak to you (20 about what could have happened to these tapes? -- Nee. Hulle het my - soos ek u se, daardie spesifieke dag wat hulle my geskakel het en ges het dat ek net aan een kant van die tape kan tape, maar toe het ek gedink..(tussenbei). No, what happened is when they phoned me and told me that I was to tape, to record only on one side of the tape. -- Maar toe het ek nog - was ek nog onder die indruk dat n mens wel dele van die gesprek kan herwin soos wat die goed oormekaar ek het nog nie verstaan hoe werk dit presies soos wat ek dit nou-nou vir u verduidelik het nie. (30 I /

20 K _ O'REILLY I was still under the impression that one could still recover or retrieve the whole recordings. So when this person, whoever it was, phoned you and said that you could only record on one side of the tape did he not say to you: These very vital tapes have been over-recorded and are no good? -- Hy het genoem dat dit is beskadig as gevolg van die feit dat ons albei kante, maar hy het nie vir my besonderhede gegee daaroor nie en ek het nie gedink ek moet vra nie want..(intervenes). The person did mention that the recording had (10 been damaged as a result of the re-recording. He did not make mention of details and I also did not ask him. Who was that person? -- Kaptein Ter Burgh van MID. And when did he..(intervenes). It was Captain.Ter Burgh of the Crime Intelligence Service. kan s nie. And when did he phone you? -- Ek sal u nie presies Dit was toe nadat die ondersoek - hy is verbonde aan die ondersoekspan, nadat hulle begin luister het na die bande. (20 He is involved with the investigation team. This was after they had listened to the tapes, but I cannot precisely tell you when this was. Was it shortly after you had handed over the tapes? -- Dit kan, daar kan omtrent n week of wat se tydsverloop tussen-in wees, ek kan nie vir u presies s nie. Was it sti11..(intervenes). It could have been after about a week or so, I cannot precisely say. Was it during June? -- Ja. (30 INTERPRETER/

21 K _ O'REILLY Yes. -- Toe gaan dit - nee, nee. Ek twyfel sterk, want die laaste bande het ek vir hulle gegee vroeg in Julie. Wanneer was..(tussenbei). No, no I doubt that much because the last tape I gave to them early in July. -- Ja. No, but you can't talk about the last tape. You have got four tapes there that relate to the period 17th/18th June. -- Hmmm. Those were all available to you and locked in the safe and would have been handed over together to Deetlefs. -- Soos (10 ek vroeer gese het het ek eers vir hulle net twee bande gegee. Like I said earlier..(intervenes). -- Net die * spesifieke aand se bande. En toe het hulle die 17de en die 18de en die 19de se tapes by my kom haal...i initially gave them two tapes, only that evening's tapes and then they came back to fetch tapes for the 17th..? -- The 18th, 19th and 20th. The 18th, the 19th and the 20th. But why, if you had them all available why didn't you hand them all over at the same time? -- Want ek het nie (20 op daardie stadium geweet wat wil hulle h nie. Hulle het vir my kom vra vir die nag van Boipatong se dinges - se bande, en dit is wat ek vir hulle gegee het. It is because I did not at that stage know what they actually wanted. You see they came and they wanted tapes pertaining to the occurrences of that night in Boipatong. I then gave them those tapes. If you would bear with me a moment. -PAUSE-. Mr Chairman, at this stage that is all the cross-examination of this witness but we would like to reserve the right to (30 continue/----

22 K O' REILLY continue it after we have had some sort of technical advice in the matter. CHAIRMAN: Mr Hattingh, have you further questions? MNR HATTINGH: Met u verlof meneer die Voorsitter. He.t u behalwe vir die masjien wat u gebruik het vir die neem van opnames n ander apparaat beskikbaar gehad om te luister? -- Nee. No, I did not have another apparatus other than the recording machine that I had, an apparatus to listen to the tape. MR HATTINGH: En die fasiliteit om bande skoon te maak, beskik die radio - die afdeling waar u was oor so n fasiliteit? - Nee[10 net MID het so n fasiliteit. This radio control of ours is not in possession of erasing facilities. -- Only MID. I beg yours? -- Only MID. It is only the MID that has such facilities. MNR HATTINGH: Goed. Nou die hoe frekwensie radio wat die volgende dag vervang moes word, kan u miskien vir ons s wie het dit vervang? -- By die eenheid self is daar twee outjies van radio-tegnies wat noual vir weke daar is en wat aandag aan al ons radio's skenk. (20 There are two guys from..? -- Radio-technic. From radio-technic at this unit who have been there for (die hele week?) -- Dis al seker n maand en n half, twee maande, ek sal nie kan se hoe lank nie. For the past month to about two months, I cannot precisely say for how long they have been there. MNR HATTINGH: Is hulle nou nog daar? -- Ja, hulle is nog steeds daar. They are still there. (Hulle het die vervanging gedoen?) -- Ja, ek het n luitenant -Burger geskakel by hulle (30 hoofkantoor/

23 K " 580 " O' REILLY hoofkantoor toe deel ek hom mee van die probleem en hy het toe ges hulle kan n ander radio bring. Hy het deurgekom na hulle toe..(intervenes). I had phoned a Lieutenant and told him about the problem who then had said that..(die twee mense moet deurkom?) -- Nee, hy het toe self ook deurgekom en ^ hoe frekwensie - ander stel daar neergesit, terwyl hulle my stel gevat het, hy en die outjies wat daar agter is en gaan werk het aan my stel. MNR HATTINGH: U het ges dit is luitenant Burger? -- Ek is nie seker-van die van, dit is Burger dink ek. Ek praat onder (10 korreks ie. I could not interpret all this. My problem is the question has had an answer that does not also embody the -or rather the answer that does not embody the question itself. It is difficult. The answer comes and I have to try and get the question as well into the answer so it will make sense, otherwise it is only the answer that comes and..(intervenes). CHAIRMAN: Can you just give a summary of the..? MR HATTINGH: I apologise, Mr Chairman, My apologies, Mr Interpreter. (20 (DISCUSSION BETWEEN INTERPRETER AND WITNESS). MR SITHOLE: Sersant 0 1Rei1ly, u sal sekerlik saam stem dat van die 24ste Maart-maand vanjaar tot en met die 17de van Junie dit is die datum van die slagting in Boipatong, dit is n periode van drie maande, is dit nie waar nie? -- Ja, dit is reg. That is correct. It is correct that from the 24th of March up to the time of this massacre at Boipatong it was three months. MNR SITHOLE: Ek sien u knik. U moet se. Oh, I see, ja. She says yes. -- Ja. (30 MNR/

24 Collection Number: AK2672 Goldstone Commission BOIPATONG ENQUIRY Records PUBLISHER: Publisher:- Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand Location:- Johannesburg 2012 LEGAL NOTICES: Copyright Notice: All materials on the Historical Papers website are protected by South African copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, or otherwise published in any format, without the prior written permission of the copyright owner. Disclaimer and Terms of Use: Provided that you maintain all copyright and other notices contained therein, you may download material (one machine readable copy and one print copy per page) for your personal and/or educational non-commercial use only. People using these records relating to the archives of Historical Papers, The Library, University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg, are reminded that such records sometimes contain material which is uncorroborated, inaccurate, distorted or untrue. While these digital records are true facsimiles of the collection records and the information contained herein is obtained from sources believed to be accurate and reliable, Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand has not independently verified their content. Consequently, the University is not responsible for any errors or omissions and excludes any and all liability for any errors in or omissions from the information on the website or any related information on third party websites accessible from this website. This document is part of a private collection deposited with Historical Papers at The University of the Witwatersrand.