1741. Majoor Cronwright gese het ek moet Dr. Aggett on- dervra, het ek eers ek dink, twee dae, gespandeer

Transcription

1 1741. Majoor Cronwright gese het ek moet Dr. Aggett on- dervra, het ek eers ek dink, twee dae, gespandeer om agtergrond omtrent hom in te win en toe het ek begin met Dr. Agg-ett se ondervr aging. So that if the interrogation commenced on the 15th, for a couple of days before that, you prepared yourself for the interrogation? --- Kan u asseblief die vraag net herhaal asseblief. Did you prepare yourself for the interrogation for a couple of days before the 15th before (10 you started interrogating Dr. Aggett? --- Indien ek korrek onthou edelagbare was my toewysing aan 0 Dr. Aggett gedoen op 'n Vrydag en het ek op 'n Maandag met Dr. Aggett begin. As part of your preparation, were you shown the document that I am about to show you? --- Ek herken die dokument edelagbare. Your worship that comes from the Supreme Court trial of Barbara Hogan where it was Exhibit "B3". It has been recognised. I'll be putting a (20 number of guestions, perhaps your worship and the learned assessor will receive copies of it. COURT: Mr. Bizos, I would prefer if you intend to hand in any documents, to show any documents to the witness, to let me have copies beforehand, give me the opportunity to study the documents, then I would be in a position to know what you are after and the intention behind the documents. I don't want to be surprised Mr. Bizos. I d o n t want to admit documents not properly considered beforehand. (30

2 MR. BIZOS: As your worship pleases. Sir may I assure you the decision to use the document was taken last night Sir, in our preparation of this. COURT: Too many decisions were taken last night Mr. Bizos and there are too many last nights I mean. MR. BIZOS: We'll try your worship. Will your worship look at it in the meantime Sir, it is a very short document, it is only a page and a bit. MNR. SCHABORT: Edelagbare is ons miskien ook ge- regtig om 'n afskrif te kry? En geleentheid om daar- (10 na te kyk. Ek wonder of u edelagbare nie miskien wil verdaag dat ons net instruksies neem en daarna kyk. * HOF: Mnr. Schabort ek is van voornemens om te verdaag om die dokumente deur te gaan wat hier inge- handig is. As I have already indicated, I don't like this course taken by Mr. Bizos and I will appreciate it if you would hand the documents to me beforehand Mr. Bizos. MR. BIZOS: As your worship pleases. I have tried (20 in the past Sir to hand them to the prosecutor to give them to your worship and we will try our best to do it in that way. DIE HOF VERDAAG VIR 15 MINUTE. MET HERVATTING: MARTIN J. NAUDE: (Nog onder Eed ) CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. BIZOS: (Cont.) Captain Naude you told us that you were shown this document which was marked "B3"? --- Dit is korrek edelagbare. By Major Cronwright? --- Ek weet nie of dit (30 deur/...

3 deur die majoor getoon was nie edelagbare, maar ek sou so aanneem dat die majoor dit vir my kon getoon het. This document, were you told that it was written by one Barbara Hogan? --- Edelagbare ek het persoonlik die ondervraging van mej. Hogan gedoen, ek het geweet toe hierdie dokument aan my oorhandig geword het, het ek hierdie dokument se geskiedenis geken edelagbare. Did you interrogate Miss Hogan before or (10 after you interrogated Dr. Aggett? --- Ek het die ondervraging van mej. Hogan voor die van wyle Dr. Aggett gedoen, ook op n afgebroke basis Edelagbare. Was there any other document shown to you written by Miss Hogan or any other detainee which had Dr. Aggett's name on it? Could I just clarify the guestion. Was there any other document shown to you by major Cronwright or any other person on which Dr. Aggett's name was written, before their detention, before the detention of the detainee, was (20 there any other document shown to you? MNR. SCHABORT: Verskoon tog edelagbare, kan ons net oor hierdie vraag duidelikheid kry. Dit mag wees dat ek op hierdie stadium instruksies moet neem van my kliente en dat ek sekere aandag aan 'n aspek van die saak moet bestee en ek wil net eers graag duidelikheid kry, ek kon nie mooi hoor of My Geleerde Vriend nou gese het dat hy wou weet of enige dokument vir die getuie -gewys was voor die aanhouding van Dr. Aggett nie. Is dit die vraag? (30

4 MR. BIZOS: No that's not the question. MR. SCHABORT: Is dit met ander woorde tydens sy aanhouding, of daar enige dokument vir horn gewys was? MR. BIZOS : Yes. MNR. SCHABORT: ging asseblief. Edelagbare ek vra net n kort verda- Dit is nodig dat ek sekere aspekte van die saak met my kliente moet bespreek. COURT : Mr. Bizos what is the reason for this line of questioning? (10 M R. BIZOS: If your worship has a look at page 1086, 1087, your worship will see that this is not the first time that the document now placed before the witness has been introduced into these proceedings. Reference was made to it by Major Cronwright, privilege was claimed for it at the time and your worship was given an assurance by Major Cronwright as to what its contents were. If this is the document, it goes a long way. COURT: If this is a document? Which document are (20 you referring to? MR. BIZOS: This is the document which was being referred to by major Cronwright. COURT: The document you produced this morning? MR. BIZOS: Yes Sir. COURT: Would you mind to refer me to the page number where he referred to this document? M R. BIZOS: No, to a document Sir. COURT: Did he refer to a document? MR. BIZOS: Toadocument. (3 COURT/..

5 COURT: Yes I am talking about the line of guestioning on this document and other documents Mr. Bizos. MR. BIZOS: Your worship I am entitled with the greatest respect Sir, to try and establish from the witness whether this was the document which reference was made to by Major Cronwright and I am entitled to investigate that aspect on two important aspects in this inguest Sir. First it has a very vital bearing on the credibility of Major Cronwright. Secondly Sir, because he told you what was in the (10 document but would not show it to your worship at that txme.... COURT: This document Mr. Bizos? MR. BIZOS: No Sir, what I have... COURT: The purpose of my guerying you is the purpose of examination on this document you handed in this morning. MR. BIZOS: Your worship may not remember what was said by Major Cronwright in relation to it... COURT: I can assure you I do Mr. Bizos. (20 MR. BIZOS: As your worship pleases, then Sir I am entitled to investigate from this witness Sir and that was the purpose of my last guestion as to whether there was another document or not, except the one I have shown the witness Sir, that is what I am investigating and I am entitled to do that with respect Sir. I don't know if I make myself plain Sir. MNR. SCHABORT: Ja edelagbare, ek is bewus daarvan dat Maj~oor Cronwright sekere getuienis gegee het betreffende 'n dokument waaromtrent hy gese het op (30

6 1746. bladsy 186 dat hy privilegie daar ten opsigte van pleit en dat dit in sy besit was en geskryf was soos hy se deur 'n aangeklaagde "nou vir hoogverraad waarin die oorledene se naam pertinent genoem word as n persoon wat deel uitgemaak het van n ANC sel binne in die Witwatersrand kompleks." Ek aanvaar op hier- die stadium dat dit die dokument is waarvan Majoor Cronwright gewag gemaak het. HOF : U aanvaar dit maar die dokument is nog nie geldentifiseer hoegenaamd voor my nie. Ek sou geen (10 probleem gehad het en ek sou geen nodigheid gehad het vir navrae as die dokument behoorlik identifiseer 0 was nie. MNR. SCHABORT: Ek sou verkies dat Majoor Cronwright, hy is op die oomblik nie hier beskikbaar nie edelagbare, ek sou verkies het om net noudat hierdie vraag gevra word, aan die hand van die oorkonde, die dokument spesifiek deur hom identifiseer te kry, dat dit die dokument is waarvan hy praat, want u sal onthou, die rede waarom ek op hierdie stadium praat is dat (20 daar was by 'n vorige geleentheid gewag gemaak van sekere dokumentasie en daar is gese dat ten opsigte van sekere dokumentasie is ons kliente nie bereid om afstand te doen van die beskerming wat artikel 6 van die Wet op Terrorisme verlees nie edelagbare, en ek moet seker maak dat daar kwessie nie op hierdie stadium by die agterdeur ingebring word op enige wyse nie. As hierdie kaptein nou ondervra word oor verdere dokumente wat verder vir hom gewys is ens. dan dink ek betree ons nou daardie gebied edelagbare, waar dit wel

7 moontlik is dat daar oortree word op n terrein wat ons nie bereid is om te duld nie. HOF: Wil u 'n onderhoud voer met u kliente mnr. Schabor t? MNR. SCHABORT: Edelagbare ja, ek sou dit graag wou doen. MR. BIZOS: Your worship, once it is conceded Sir, as I had reason to believe that to be the fact, that B3 is the document to which Major Cronwright referred in his evidence before your worship, I submit with (10 the greatest respect Sir, that I am entitled to put the question that I have put to the witness. I would be the last Sir, to object to any application for an adjournment so that My Learned Friend can consult his clients, but I do not know, with respect, what that consultation has to do with the question that I am asking. COURT: Mr. Bizos I will adjourn. I will give counsel for the police the opportunity to consult with his clients and I must point out once again, if (; you people had taken the trouble to produce the document to me earlier, I would have been in a posisie to consider the situation, but now you are surprising me with this document and I hope you do keep that in mind in the future Mr. Bizos. MR. BIZOS: I'm sorry your worship. Could I assure your worship Sir, and My Learned Friend Mr. De Vries will, I'm sure bear me out Sir that whenever I have had a document in the past I have gone up to him and I have shown it to him in order that there should not

8 be an element of surprise in, if he considered it necessary to bring it to your worship, to do so. But Sir, I'm saying this Sir, because I would like such judicial displeasure as there is, to be explained as far as I am concerned your worship. I want to assure your worship that we do not intend producing documents out of any boxes in order to surprise anybody. I want to assure your worship that we were told about the calling of Captain Naude and we had thought that the inquest would have been (10 taken the usual turn of the calling of detainees, we re-examined the guestion of his cross-examination late last night. I want to give your worship that assurance. There was no intention of keeping the document, as far as My Learned Friends are concerned Sir, I want to assure you that this document cannot possibly come as a surprise to them because it comes from their possession. COURT: I am not talking about on their behalf Mr. Bizos, I am talking on my own behalf. (20 MR. BIZOS: I'm sorry your worship, I'm sorry that your worship was placed to any inconvenience and I'll see to it that it does not happen again, but I want to assure your worship that it was not deliberate. We do not intend, keeping anything from anybody and Sir once the question of privilege has been raised I submit with the greatest respect Sir, that My Learned Friends cannot choose which documents they are going to produce and which documents they are not going to produce. (30

9 COURT: Before I adjourn Mr. Bizos, are there any other documents you want to produce during the examination of this witness? MR. BIZOS: I would like to have a conference with my associates and before your worship comes back I will give your worship the assurance as to whether we are going to refer to any documents not... I may say Sir that I may have to refer to a document which is, the handwritten statement, which is already before your worship for comparison purposes but that (10 is of course another matter. MR. SCHABORT: Your worship, it will be necessary for me also to consult with this particular witness and I would ask your permission Sir to do so on this particular aspect because whatever he tells me is going to affect his position and the evidence he will give or not because I will then have to anticipate perhaps such guestions as may be put. M R. BIZOS: With the greatest respect Sir, whilst the witness is under cross-examination no right of (20 consultation exists and your worship should not grant such permission, without our consent which we withhold Sir. HOF: Mnr. Schabort hoekom vra u my vir toestemming om met die getuie te konsulteer terwyl hy onder kruis- ondervraging is. Ek weet dit is nie n gewone verhoor nie maar daar is sekere beginsels wat geldig is. Waar- om plaas u vir my in daardie posisie om vir my dit te vra? - Watter magte het ek om spesifieke goedkeuring daaraan te heg? (30 MNR/...

10 1750. MNR. SCHABORT: Edelagbare die situasie wat hier ontstaan het, is die situasie waar ek moet duidelikheid kry oor die vraag of hierdie getuie, van welke dokumentasie hy weet en oor welke dokumentasie hy gevra word en uit die aard van die saak is dit nodig dat ek daaroor duidelikheid het, en edelagbare ek kan net aan die hand doen, dat enige beletsel op konsultasie met iemand terwyl hy onder kruisondervraging onderworpe is, is tog nie 'n absolute belet nie. Dit hang van omstandighede af en ek wil aan (10 die hand doen dat dit duidelik omstandighede hier is wat dit noodsaaklik maak om hierdie aspek met die getuie uit te klaar en ek noem dit vir u, hierdie is u verrigtinge, en edelagbare ek wil dit vir u noem omdat ek dit nie op 'n ander wyse kan doen nie. Ek wil he My Geleerde Vriend moet daarvan weet, ek wil he u moet daarvan weet en dat dit vir ons nodig is om dit te doen. HOF: Ek glo nie dit is vir my nodig om vir u spesifiek toestemming te verleen om met getuies te kon- (20 sulteer nie, dit is u klient. Ek laat dit aan uself oor om daaroor te besluit. Ek sal weet wat om daar- mee te doen, as dit gedoen word. DIE HOF NEEM_'N KORT VERDAGING. MET HERVATTING: HOF: Mnr. Schabort, kan u net help, die dokument wat hier ingehandig is net voor die verdaging, dit is vir my van belang om te weet of dit die dokument is wat na-verwys is in getuienis? MNR. SCHABORT: Ja edelagbare, dit is die dokument, (30 wat/...

11 1751. wat Majoor Cronwright na verwys het in getuienis. HOF: Baie dankie mnr. Schabort. MNR. SCHABORT: Edelagbare ons het nie met kaptein Naude op hierdie stadium gekonsulteer nie. Ons het met ons Geleerde Vriende sekere samesprekings gevoer en daar was sekere standpunte oorgedra en ek dink ons het 'n soort van n "working arrangement" bereik wat dit aanbetref edelagbare en in die omstandighede het ons nie besware daaroor dat Kaptein Naude oor daardie besondere dokument ondervra word (10 nie. HOF: Baie dankie mnr. Schabort, vir my was dit be- langrik om te weet watter dokumente nou voor die Hof gebring word en dit is nou behoorlik geidentifiseer en ek is tevrede dat ons kan aangaan. MR. BIZOS: Your worship the guestion that I asked was directed to the identification of the document, but once there is the submission by My Learned Friend that this is the document which was referred tc by Major Cronwright, then I will not repeat the question (20 I asked before the adjournment. COURT: Thank you Mr. Bizos. MARTIN J. NAUDE: (Nog onder Eed ) CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. BIZOS: (Cont.) This document B3, do you agree that it has Dr. Neil Aggett's name written on it under the heading: "Advisory Reference People only Above Ground Work"? --- Dit is korrek. And that was there when you were shown the document by Major Cronwright? --- Dis korrek edelagbare. And underneath that is the name of Neil (30

12 M.J. Naude Aggett and both his first name and his surname are wrongly spelt? --- Dit is korrek edelagbare. Also, under the same heading, Dr. Liz Floyd's name appears? --- Dit is korrek edelagbare. There was at the time that you were shown this document the following inscription "none of these people know that I am under discipline, nor am I aware of any of their positions regards outside." Just for his worship's information, is to be discipline, a way of saying that one is a member (10 of the ANC or an unlawful organisation? --- Kan u die vraag net herhaal, stel u die vraag nou aan my? Do you know that people who say that they are members of the ANC express it in the manner such as "I am under discipline"?---om 'n objektiewe e- valuasie aan hierdie dokument te kan heg, moet hierdie dokument gesien word in die konteks edelagbare waarop die ANC opereer, lank gelede het dit bekend gestaan as die M-plan wat basies op 'n sel-sisteem neerkom en in hierdie spesifieke geval mag dit wees (20 dat mej. Hogan n volwaardige lid van die ANC was en onder dissipline was, maar indien wyle Dr. Aggett of Dr. Floyd onder 'n lid van die ANC was, mag hulle aan selle behoort het, afsonderlik van die van mej. Hogan en mag hulle nie bewus gewees het van mekaar nie. Met ander woorde dit kom daarop neer dat een ANC lid kan met 'n mede ANC lid skakel onder wete dat hy alreeds onder die dissipline van die ANC verkeer. I'll repeat my guestion Captain Naude, when people who are members of the ANC speak or write, (30 do/...

13 1753. do they instead of saying, I am a member of the ANC, do they say or write, "I am under discipline." --- Ek sou se dit kan in beide vorme voorkom. Dit sal weereens afhang, volgens my ondervinding, die posisie wat daardie persoon in die organisasie beklee edel- agbare. I'll repeat my question. Do people in the ANC speak of being under discipline as an equivalent to "I am a member of the ANC"? --- Nee hulle gebruik dit nie op 'n vergelykender basis nie. Dit kan in (10 beide kontekse kan dit gebruik word en in beide kontekse kan dit met die ANC verbind word. Ek verstaan onder, as jy sou se, "ek is onder dissipline", dan word jy beheer vanaf die organisatoriese struktuur in die buiteland, waar as jy kan binnelands opereer sonder om onder die disspline van die buitelandse vleuel van die ANC te wees. HOF: Ek weet nie of daar n misverstand is nie mnr. 0 Naude, miskien antwoord u ir.eer as wat in die vraag is. Die vraag is net of hierdie term gebruik word? ( Edelagbare die term kan in beide kontekse gebruik word. Is u bewus of so 'n term gebruik w o r d? ---Die term dat hy onder disspline is, dit word gebruik, en so ook die term dat hy 'n lid van die ANC is. MR. BIZOS: But this document distinguishes between people who, to the knowledge of the author, we know it is Miss Hogan, it is no secret, she admitted it in open Court, you are aware of that Captain? --- Dit is korrek edelagbare. (30 This/...

14 1754. This person distinguishes between the persons she knew to be under discipline, meaning members or suspected them to be members or under discipline and those with whom she only had above ground work dealings, do you agree with that? --- Ek stem daarmee saam edelagbare. And Dr. Aggett's name and Dr. Floyd's name appears under the heading "Advisory/Reference people only above ground w o r k. " ---Dit is korrek. "None of these people know that I am under (10 discipline, nor am I aware of any of their positions as regards outside." Is it not clear that the author of this document had no information as to whether Dr. Aggett and Dr. Floyd had any unlawful dealings with the ANC. I'll change it. Does this document - I'll confine myself to the direct guestion. Does this document say that Dr. Aggett was a member of an ANC cell in the Witwatersrand Complex? --- Nee edelagbare. Also there are circles and there are crosses (20 next to the names and the one says "people who I know fairly well are marked with a cross, and people whom I know slightly are marked with a circle" and the names of Dr. Aggett and Dr. Floyd are mai ked with a circle, correct? --- Dit is heeltemal korrek. I also want to put... you probably know or if you did not know, I want to tell you in fairness to Major Cronwright and others, that the circles and the crosses and the handwriting on the second page is not written by Miss Hogan but by Mr. Robert Adam. (30 Do/...

15 1755. Do you know that? --- Ek kan nie onthou of sy dit destyds gemeld het tydens ondervraging nie edelagbare, mac.r ek sal dit aanneem dat dit deur Rob Adam geskryf kon gewees het. That was the evidence. If we take the typewritten statement, we do not find anything there Mr. Naude on which Dr. Aggett either admitted or even alluded that he was a member of the ANC, of an AKC cell? --- Dis korrek edelagbare. Without wishing tc embarrass you in any way (10 Mr. Naude, would you consider yourself a competent and well trained interrogator? --- In my teskeie merting sou ek ja se edelagbare. There is also nothing in the statement which you took in which Dr. Aggett admitted to you that he was Marxist or a communist or a member of the ANC or guilty of any other unlawful activity? --- Dit is korrek edelagbare. Would it be correct to describe Dr. Aggett as an honourable p e r s o n? ---Dit is 'n moeilike (20 vraag om te antwoord. Soos ek gese het gister cok, fck het nooit buiten die bestek van hierdie werk het ek nooit die geleentheid gehad om Dr. Aggett op 'n ander vlak te ontmoet nie, dus ek kan nie 'n waardebepaling in geheel heg nie. Eut let us confine ourselves to your statement in paragraph 15. "Dr. Aggett was 'n aangename persoon wie spontaan op vrae geantwoord het en was altyd in gemoedelike stemming." Do you stand by that Captain Naude? --- Ek staan daarby edelagbare. (30 Did/...

16 1756. Did you ever accuse Dr. Aggett of being a liar? --- Ek sou dit nie so pertinent stel dat ek hom beskuldig het as n leuenaar nie, maar ek het by verskeie geleenthede teenstrydighede aan hom uitgewys. Fair enough. It is an interrogator's and an examiner's unhappy lot to do that. But how do you think of what you knew of him, how do you think Dr. Aggett would have reacted to you if you had called him a liar? --- Ek sou se dit maak nie verskil of (10 dit Dr. Aggett was of enige ander persoon nie edelagbare, die feit is as ek iemand wil beskuldig van 'n leuenaar wees, dan moet ek hom met 'n feit konfronteer om te bewys dat hy 'n leuenaar is. Without wishing to be misunderstood Captain that some people are entitled to less consideration than others, I daresay if we take the one extreme of a person who has been through the courts and convicted a couple of times and disbelieved by the Courts a couple of times, he may not be unduly up- (20 set if his word is doubted, is that not your experience? Ek is nie presies seker van die strekking van die vraag nie edelagbare. Let me put it in a positive way. Dr. Aggett was a professional man. You told us that he answered your guestions in a spontaneous manner and that he was "'n gemoedelike stemming". I had occasion to look it up in the dictionary because I wasn't guite sure. _It really means that he was at peace with himself or words to that effect, is that correct? --- (30 Ek /...

17 1757. Ek sou tot 'n mate daarmee saamstem maar ek sal moet uitbrei op die vraag edelagbare, ek sal my antwoord moet kwalifiseer. A person at peace with himself, is that what you intended to indicate by using "gemoedelike stemming" or pleasant disposition, at peace with himself. I am prepared to be guided by your worship? --- As ek se van gemoedelike stemming dan sou ek dit bestempel dat die ondervraging het gegaan op vraag/antwoord, vraag/antwoord, vraag/antwoord dan oor iets (10 anders en dan weer vraag/antwoord en so. Dit het nie een eentonige norm of vorm aangeneem nie. Insofar as any statement that was made by Dr. Aggett after you left which is in conflict with the typewritten statement you left behind, obtained by Mr. Whitehead and his colleagues, have you seen it? --- Nee ek het nie die finale verklaring van Dr. Aggett gesien nie edelagbare. I don't think that will describe it as the final, but you have not seen the handwritten state- (20 ment by Dr. Aggett? --- Nee edelagbare. Was there any particular reason why you returned to the Eastern Cape Captain? --- Daar was verskeie redes daarvoor edelagbare. Daar was sake aan gewees wat ons ondersoek het, dit was met betrekking tot die finalisering van die hofsake en ander dergelike probleme. But you had really been appointed as the interrogator of Dr. Aggett? --- Ek sou nie myself bestempel dat ek aangese was as die ondervraer van (30 Dr /...

18 1758. Dr. Aggett nie. My oorspronklike koms na Johannesburg, was die versoek dat iemand moes kom wat in vakbondaangeleenthede werk in Oos Londen en iemand wat in die ANC werk en ek val in die laaste kategorie. Die eintlike persoon wie saamgekom het om vakbonde te ondersoek was op daardie stadium nog besig met mej. Hogan edelagbare. We have evidence before his worship that towards the end of December, Dr. Aggett was not, did not expect to be charged? Daarop kan ek nie (10 antwoord nie edelagbare. MR. SCHABORT: Your worship with respect to My Learned Friend. We do not accept that there is'evidence to that effect. There is some say-so evidence before your worship, and we submit with respect Sir, that evidence is not self proving. HOF: Ek mag aan u aandui ek beskou dit nie noodwendig dat dit iets bewys nie, maar dit is inligting wat aan die Hof voorgele is, wat ek meen vrae oor gestel kan word. (20 MR. SCHABORT: As the Court pleases, as long as it is placed on that basis as well Sir. MR. BIZOS: The question was that he expected not to be charged.. COURT: It is quite clear, the question is in order you may proceed Mr. Bizos. MR. BIZOS: There was evidence that at the end of December he believed that he vould not be charged? Edelagbare soos ek reeds gese het, ek kan nie op daardie spesifieke vraag 'n antwoord gee nie. As ek (3( korrek/...

19 1759. korrek onthou het ek Dr. Aggett op die 23ste Desember al verlaat en na Dr. Floyd op Bronkhorstspruit gegaan en ek het op die 4de Januarie teruggekom. As dit aan hom genoem was of aan hom gese was, dit was nooit tot my aandag gebring nie edelagbare. I'm not for one moment suggesting that anybody told him that he would not be charged. I wanted to make it quite clear that he expressed his state of mind tc a visitor that he did not expect to be charged? --- Dit mag moontlik so wees edelagbare, ek (10 kan se of hy sy besoeker so gese het al dan nie. And he said that a holiday planned for # February should not be cancelled? --- Daarop kan ek ook nie kommentaar lewer nie edelagbare. Was the relationship between you and Dr. Aggett during the course of the interrogation such that althought he may have been mistaken, he was able to assess his situation, his prospects of being charged or otherwise?---ek sou se tot 'n mate ja. Ek bedoel enige iemand kan sy posisie evalueer, maar (20 dit is 'n evaluasie wat van, ek kan hier dit die geval noem van die outeur van die verklaring afk.cmstig is en ek dink nie n mens kan veel waarde daaraan heg nie. Yes, let's just put it on this minimum basis Captain, he did not appear to be, to you to be a person who was daydreaming, he was in full control of his senses, he was responding to your guestions intelligently?---ek sou hom bestempel as 'n persoon wat nie gedagdroom het nie, maar ek sou hom bestempel as 'n persoon wat geweet het waarnatoe hy wil gaan. (30 Ye s /...

20 1760. Yes, Oh yes, I think a lot of people do that. Captain, if a person is being interrogated by an intelligent interrogator and he himself is sufficiently intelligent to have got degrees such as Dr. Aggett had obtained from the University of Cape Town, during the course of the interrogation, is it your experience that a person gets a pretty good idea what sort of case there is against him, if indeed there is a case against him at a l l? ---'n Veil igheidsaak is baie moeilik om tydens die verloop van die ondersoek reeds die (10 uiteindelike klagtes van die ondersoek te voorspel. Weereens, 'n mens kan seker 'n afleiding maak, maar 0 dan is dit ook slegs bloot 'n afleiding. Yes of course, it would only be an inference, we accept that. I take it you never had any occasion to tear up any portion of Dr. Aggett's statement? --- Nie sover ek kan onthou nie edelagbare. Although you pointed out contradictions, you told us you never had any occasion to call him a liar or untruthful? --- Nie sover ek kan onthou nie. (20 I return to the guestion. What affect do you think it would have had on Dr. Aggett if he was accused of lying, if his statement was being torn up, what affect do you think it would have had on him? ---Ek kan so 'n vraag nie beantwoord nie edelagbare. Ek dink dit hang van die individu af. Jy kan, ek dink 'n mens met temperament kan oorweldigend reageer waar ander sal net aanvaar dat dit gedoen is, dit is vir my-moeilik, ek kan nie. Soos ek voorheen getuig het edelagbare, ek het hom nie geken as 'n vriend nie (30 ek/...

21 ek het hom net geken as iemand wat 'n aangehoudende/ ondervraer verwantskap gehad het. I want to use the expression "hard evidence" or "conclusive evidence" or "cogent evidence". Had you put anything before Dr. Aggett during the course of your interrogation of him from the 15th of December to the 4th of January, which would have made it unrealistic for him to believe that he would not be charged and that he would still have a holiday in February? Ek het... ek dink seersekerlik die (10 doel van enige veiligheidsondersoek edelagbare, is nie om aan die aangehoudende die feite tot jou beskikking te stel in sy geheel nie, maar hi-erdie spesifieke dokument nie in sy konteks soos hy hier le nie, maar woordeliks het ek aan beide Dr. Aggett en Dr. Floyd oorgedra destyds by hulle ondervraging en hulle was dus bewus dat die Vei1igheidstak weet van hulle bedrywighede en hy kon sy eie afleidings daarvolgens maak wat hy wou. Yes but they knew, he told you about his in- (20 volvement or lack of involvement in the statement, correct? Ek sou nie se hy het my gese van die ontbreking van sy betrokkenheid nie. Die idee is as jy -n veiligheidsaangehoudende ondervra, seersekerlik ek bedoel dit is vreemde mense, beide van jou, jy moet die man aan die gesels kry, die ding moet momentum bereik en dan geleidelik sal hierdie faktore ingekom het. Dr. Aggett was bewus van hierdie spesifieke punt. "As hy dit hierin wou behels kon hy dit behels het, as hy dit nie wou behels nie, dit was opsioneel. (30 Dit/

22 1762. Dit was vir hom om te besluit. What has anybody got to fear in relation to this document, B 3? ---Enige persoon wie n lid is of was van die ANC en ek het dit aan hulle beide pertinent gestel, dat hierdie dokument herwin is van 'n spesifieke plek en ek het die plek aan hulle genoem, dan sou hy geweet het dat die Vei1igheidstak weet presies hoe diep ek betrokke is. Yes but why does a man have to fear that a member of the ANC says I consult people about certain (10 things but they don t know I am a member of the ANC and I do it in my above ground work. Why should any- «r body fear a document such as this? --- Ek sou nie se dat enige persoon hoef te vrees dasrvoor nie. Ek het vantevore reeds gese dat die outeur van hierdie stuk sou nie geweet het edelagbare of die res lede is van die ANC al dan nie, tensy hulle binne in haar sel, lede van haar sel was. Met ander woorde, ek kan dit in die konteks stel, dat hy het nou miskien, miskien kon hy besef het nou, hulle is nou heeltemal bewus daarvan.(20 Captain I don't think that we are coming to terms with one another, I don't think with respect that it is a linguistic problem. Do you agree that B3 is not a document which was drawn, appears to have been drawn with the knowledge or consent of Dr. Aggett and Dr. Floyd? --- Ek stem volkome daarmee saam dat hierdie dokument soos dit hier geskrewe staan nie met hulle toestemming opgestel is nie. - And even though, or that they had anything to do with its coming into being? --- Ek sou daar ook (30

23 1763. saamstem dat hulle mag moontlik nie bewus gewees het daarvan nie. And even if this document was put in front of Dr. Aggett, assume that this document was put - was it put before him by the way? --- Nee edelagbare. Even on the assumption that it was put before him, would his explanation not have been a very simple one in relation to the document. Look what it says. It says that she consulted me above ground work only and she doesn't even know how to spell my (10 first name, doesn t even know how to spell my surname, why am I accused of being a member of the ANC on the strength of this document? Would that not have been the response if he was shown this document? Edelagbare die trant van mnr. Bizos se ondervraging nou is presies dieselfde wat Dr. Floyd s 'n was, Dr. Floyd het van dieselfde standpunt uitgegaan. Maar vanuit my oogpunt gesien as 'n veiligheidsman, kon ek nie op daardie basis geopereer het nie. Hierdie dokument was gevind onder omstandighede waar die ANC (20 reeds op 'n ver gevorderde basis binnelands geopereer het en georganiseerd was. Ek kon hierdie dokument nie in daardie lig vertolk nie. Did you show this document to Dr. Floyd? --- Ek kan nie onthou of ek die document pertinent aan Dr. Floyd getoon het nie, maar ek het vir Dr. Floyd gese, sy het gehuil toe sy die feite van hierdie dokument gehoor het. - Yes but that does not accuse her of anything, it is not evidence of any unlawful conduct on her part? (30 Ek /...

24 1764. Ek stem saam daar edelagbare, maar die feit is net, die dokument deur my gesien en die dokument nou gesien is in verskillende kontekse. I see. So you kept Dr. Aggett and Dr. Floyd and interrogated them for 73 hours and you specifically say you never showed this document to Dr. Aggett, but did you tell him precisely what the document says, or did you tell him there was a document which showed that he was a member of the ANC? Ek het aan Dr. Aggett gemeld dat hy genoem word (10 in 'n dokument, ek het hom die plek gese waar die dokument gevind was en dat hy in n adviserende hoedanigheid bogronds skakeling het met 'n persoon wie skakeling het met die ANC. Did you tell him that the document had not even spelt his names correctly? --- Nee dit het ek hom nie gese nie edelagbare. Did you tell him that the person who wrote it wrote on the same document that he, according to the person who wrote it, did not know that she was (21 a member of the ANC, nor that she was aware that he Dr. Aggett had anything to do with the ANC? --- Ek het dit nie aan hom gemeld nie edelagbare, ek het aan hom gemeld soos ek nou net gese het, dat hy genoem was in hierdie dokument. But why not Captain? Why should a person be detained and interrogated about the contents of a document without telling him precisely what the document says? --- Edelagbare hierdie dokument soos hy hier le, was nie die oorsaak van Dr. Aggett se (30 arrestasie/...

25 1765. arrestasie nie. bevat n puntjie. Hierdie dokument soos hy hier le As enige iemand deur n geheime manier met die ANC sou kommunikeer, dan is dit miskien die toppunt van organisering gesien uit die ANC se oogpunt en hierdie feit, gegee vir Dr. Aggett en gegee vir Dr. Floyd, indien hulle betrokke is dan sou hulle geweet het, die Veiligheidstak weet nou waarmee ons besig is. Maar hierdie dokument was nie die oorsaak van Dr. Aggett se arrestasie nie. Is the answer this, if there is a document (10... you do not interpret this as being a member of a cell of the ANC, you don't interpret it that way, do you? That this is evidence or information that Dr. Aggett and Dr. Floyd were members of the ANC? --- As ek eerlik moet wees ek het dit so geinterpreteer, omdat ek die agtergrond van mej. Hogan ge- had het met betrekking to die dokument. Ek het geweet hoever sy gevorder het met die omvang daarvan. Aan die anderkant het ek geweet op watter basis die ANC opereer. Ek moes hierdie dokument sien edelagbare (20 vanuit 'n Veiligheidsman se oogpunt van 'n ondersoek. Ek kon dit op geen ander manier interpreteer nie. So that even if a document says that a person... even if the person who wrote it says, I don't know him to be a member of the ANC, you operate on the basis that he is a member of the ANC? MR. SCHABORT: Edelagbare met respek, ek wil net se dit is nie wat die dokument se nie. Die persoon se nie, ek wil graag he My Geleerde Vriend moet vir u wys waar die dokument se "I don't know him as an ANC (30 member/...

26 1766. member ". MR. BIZOS: That is what I put your worship, with respect. COURT: Is that in the document? MR. BIZOS: Yes. COURT: Where? MR. BIZOS: On the side Sir. "None of this people know that I am under discipline nor am I aware of any of their positions as regards outside." Well taken with the above ground work Sir. I'll amend the (10 question your worship. This document Captain, you chose to interpret as evidence that Dr. Aggett was connected with the ANC? --- As dit so sou gestel word dat ek gekies het dat hierdie dokument hom daarmee verbind dan sou ek se tot n mate ja, omdat die omringende faktore wat hierdie dokument voorafgegaan het, 'n aanduiding was dat daar wel organisering was, dat hierdie dokument se egtheid, die opstelling daarvan deur die outeur, hierdie dokument kon in geen vorm, en ek dink hy is (20 selfs nie by die Hofsaak, is hy in enige vorm aangeval nie. Ek het hierdie dokument so aanvaar as synde ge- rig te wees aan die ANC, komende van 'n lid van die ANC edelagbare. Even though you interpreted this document the way that you said you did, Dr. Aggett wrote that he was not a member of the ANC and that in fact he had certain reservations about this. You recall that in the statement, we don't have to refer to it? --- Dit is korrek, ek kan nie onthou die paragraaf oor (30

27 1767. "certain reservations" maar wat hier... uit hierdie dokument wat hieruit baie sterk vooruitgespruit het en ek en Dr. Aggett het die middag toe ons hierdie ding afgehandel het, het ek daaroor met hom gepraat. Uit hierdie dokument het dit weer vir my as veilig- heidsman, was Dr. Aggett 'n simpatiseerder van die ANC. Weer gesien vanuit 'n veiligheidsman se oogpunt, as jy simpatiseer en of jy 'n lid is, daar is min onder- skeid vandag. What did you just say? --- Of jy simpatiseer (10 en of jy 'n lid is van die ANC edelagbare, daar is weinig verskil vandag. * Would you like to explain that? --- As jy simpatiseer edelagbare met die ANC, dan sou ek se dat jy onderskryf die doelstel1ings van die ANC. And what are the conseguences of that? Are you liable to be detained? --- Ek sou nie se dat jy "liable to be..." Dit kan beide kante toe gaan. Jy kan of onderworpe wees aan 'n moontlike arrestasie en dit kan na die anderkant toe ook gaan. Jy kan (20 moontlik gewerf word as 'n volwaardige lid onder dissipline vir die ANC. In paragraph 73, 74, 75, 76, 77 of the typewritten document, Dr. Aggett set out his attitude to the various organisations mentioned in there, correct? --- Dit is korrek edelagbare. At that stage you got him to sign the statement, correct? --- Dis korrek edelagbare. You made plans to leave for the Eastern Cape? --- Dis korrek edelagbare. (30 You/...

28 Historical Papers, Wits University Collection Number: AK2216 AGGETT, Dr Neil, Inquest, 1982 PUBLISHER: Publisher:- Historical Papers Research Archive Location:- Johannesburg 2013 LEGAL NOTICES: Copyright Notice: All materials on the Historical Papers website are protected by South African copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, or otherwise published in any format, without the prior written permission of the copyright owner. Disclaimer and Terms of Use: Provided that you maintain all copyright and other notices contained therein, you may download material (one machine readable copy and one print copy per page) for your personal and/or educational non-commercial use only. People using these records relating to the archives of Historical Papers, The Library, University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg, are reminded that such records sometimes contain material which is uncorroborated, inaccurate, distorted or untrue. While these digital records are true facsimiles of paper documents and the information contained herein is obtained from sources believed to be accurate and reliable, Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand has not independently verified their content. Consequently, the University is not responsible for any errors or omissions and excludes any and all liability for any errors in or omissions from the information on the website or any related information on third party websites accessible from this website. This document is part of a collection deposited at the Historical Papers Research Archive at The University of the Witwatersrand. 07:52:17 AM]