MR. SCHABORT: May we just ask Sir, is this being submitted. will be evidence to this effect or is the witness being

Transcription

1 that they were kept awake on the 10th floor? MR. SCHABORT: May we just ask Sir, is this being submitted on the basis of a statement of fact that there will be evidence to this effect or is the witness being tested in some other respect Sir, because I think that it is important that we must know on what basis these questions are put Sir. MR. BIZOS: I'm testing the witness's knowledge Sir, and it will be proved Sir, that such allegations were in fact made if need be. I am testing the witness's knowledge (10 whether such allegations were made or not Sir, because he would have reacted in a particular way to the situation if he had such knowledge and another way if he did not. Did you know of allegations made by other detainees before this of being kept awake the whole night and not being allowed to sleep? --- Edelagbare as my geheue my nie in die steek laat nie weet ek van een geval waar 'n bewering teen 'n nou-huidige kaptein gemaak was. Daar was geen kriminele vervolging in die aangeleentheid nie, maar wel 'n siviele eis, maar as ek reg onthou was dit nie (: 'n kwessie van 'n ondervraging gedurende die aand, 'n langdurige ondervraging nie maar die hoofbewering soos ek onthou en verstaan, ek het nie die klagte gesien nie, was dat sy vir lang ure aanmekaar moes staan, en hier praat ek heel onder korreksie, ek het nie die klagte gesien nie. This allegation was made in relation to who? --- 'n Nou-kaptein. Who is that? --- Kaptein Bouwer edelagbare, maar dit wil ek byvoeg, hy is sedert daardie tyd van ondersoek af weggeneem. (30 That /...

2 That is the case in respect of which damages were paid? --- Ek meen dit is dieselfde saak. In order to avoid false allegations being made against the security police at John Vorster Square, one of the simplest ways of avoiding the allegation is by putting an end to the factors of keeping people on the 10th floor two nights running, would that not be so major? --- Ek glo nie dit sal die oplossing wees teen hierdie bewerings wat gedurigdeur teen die veiligheidstak gemaak word nie. (10 Just a moment Major please, allegations were made in the past and if need be we will prove that a number of people have made the allegations, from the Timol Inquest onwards? --- Dit is voor my tyd hier in Johannesburg edelagbare. That people were kept awake on the 10th floor and intensively interrogated, so you knew in respect of one case. In order to avoid false allegations being made, a simple procedure could have been adopted. Interrogate people for a reasonable period of time and then say, (20 let us go and book you into your cell where you can go and rest. Then it is very good for the reputation of the security police because false allegations cannot be made and probably better for the detainee who will be away from the intensive interrogation.. Any reason why, in view of the fact that such allegations were made in the past, Dr. Aggett was kept on the 10th floor during the night of the 28th, 29th and 29/30th? --- Edelagbare om sy ondervraging af te handel soos ek alreeds verklaar het en met my spesifieke opdragte aan. Luitenant Whitehead het (30 die/.

3 t die man die tyd gehad om te rus, te slaap, te eet. Derhalwe is hy nie gedurende daardie betrokke aande dwarsdeur die nag ondervra nie. I don t think that you understood my guestion correctly. --- Ek het edelagbare. In order to avoid false allegations being made and protecting the good name of the Security Police, why are people kept on the 10th floor and not the elementary precaution taken in order to avoid the making of such false allegations by taking them back to their cell where (10 they can rest and where they belong? --- Ek het alreeds verklaar edelagbare dat hier was 'n geleentheid waar wyle Dr. Aggett sy ondervraging agter die rug woy kry, twee- dens die ondervinding het reeds geleer dat 'n persoon wat sy hart oopmaak slaap rusteloos, is partykeer senuweeagtig of gespanne, dit is 'n baie goeie voorsorgmaatreel dat hy onder wakende oe rus-tig kan slaap of tot ruste kom. As daar dan s1apeloosheid is of senuweeagtigheid kan hy na 'n dokter geneem word of 'n dokter ontbied word om hom die nodige behandeling te gee en om hierdie prosedure geheel (20 en al te verdoem sal nie aanhoudende bewerings, klagtes van aanrandings teen die veiligheidstak tot 'n staking bring nie. But at least it would have put an end to this possible false allegation. Do you agree that if Dr. Aggett had been returned to his cell, he could not possibly have truthfully complained that he was intensively interrogated for 62 hours, because there would have been a record independent of the security police that he had been returned to his cell? --- Dit is moontlik edelagbare, (30

4 * A.B. Cronwright maar indien Dr. Aggett van 8 uur die oggend tot 8 uur die aand ondervra is en dan teruggeneem is na sy sel vir 'n tydperk van 6 of 10 of 20 dae aaneenlopend, glo ek sou die klagte groter gewees het nou in hierdie agbare Hof. Major let us take another portion of your answer, you say that Dr. Aggett was anxious to get his interrogation over with? --- So is dit aan my meegedeel en ek het geen rede gehad om dit nie te glo nie edelagbare. I take it also that he was not alone, that every (10 possible step is taken to complete the interrogation as soon as possible by you and your fellow officers major? --- Edelagbare ek wil net graag tot die Hof* se aandag bring, H ondervraging as sulks is nie net ondervraging nie. Vrae word gestel aan die aangehoudende waarop hy verantwoording doen, deur skryf, deur aantekeninge te maak of deur terug te praat. Verdere vrae word aan horn gestel waarop hy sal antwoord mondelings of dit op skrif stel endiesmeer. Derhalwe 'n ondervraging van tien ure, van daardie tien ure mag ses ure skriftelik wees en nie (20 'n werklike ondervraging nie maar verantwoording op die vrae wat aan hom gestel is. The guestion was, were you and your fellow officers as anxious as Dr. Aggett to complete his interrogation as soon as possible? --- Edelagbare aan my sou dit geen saak gemaak het of hy nog 'n jaar geneem het nie. You can't be serious about that? --- Ek is heeltemal, heeltemal eerlik daaromtrent. Surely you would want a poor detainee to be released as soon as possible? --- Dit is so edelagbare, maar (30

5 maar ek wil net graag onder die Hof se aandag bring met die oorplasing van Dr. Aggett van Pretoria Sentraal Gevangenis na John Vorster Plein op die llde Desember wanneer hy toe aangehou is kragtens artikel 6 Wet 83 van 1967, is Dr. Aggett eers na my kantoor toe gebring, waar ek horn volledig meegedeel het wat die aanhoudings notule van Art. 6 is deur die wetboek self- te open en dit uit te lees aan horn. Dr. Aggett se antwoord aan my was: "I am not ready at this stage to talk yet." We'll come back to that Major, would you mind (10 answering the guestion. Were you as anxious as Dr. Aggett to complete his interrogation as soon as possible? --- Nee edelagbare, nie op daardie stadium nie, ons het baie ander ondervragings gehad waarmee ons (con aangaan. Is that why he was not interrogated at all between the 12th and the 19th of January? --- Nee edelagbare, die rede hiervoor is daar is etlike ander aangehoudendes wat ook vir tydperke gewag het vir verdere ondervraging. Die volume van hierdie ondersoek was so geweldig gewees en daar was baie navorsing om te doen op verklarings wat (20 bekom is en verdere inligting. Dit het alles tyd geneem. And is that also the reason why he was not interrogated at all between the 21st and the 24th? --- Heel moontlik edelagbare. But that the pressure was really put on from the 25th to the 31st with two whole nights sitting? --- Edelagbare ek gaan nie saamstem met die woord dat druk uitgeoefen is nie. We'll return to this night sitting, but because of your insistence on the tremendous magnitude of this (30

6 ^ 0 investigation major, A.B. Cronwright there are one or two guestions I want to put to you in relation to that before we proceed so that we may bring it down to its level that it really has shown to have been- According to the information available to us between September and February there were 67 persons detained at John Vorster Square or interrogated at John Vorster Sguare Major Cronwright. Is my figure more or less correct? --- Ek glo nie daardie syfer is korrek nie, ek dink dit is 58 of 59. We may have included people who are peripherally (10 involved but can we agree on about 60. Take my total figure of 67 and we'll see whether your figure is correct. Of those 67 persons Major Cronwright, 40 hsve been released without any charge having been brought against them? --- Dit is korrek edelagbare. So that, and we have that 6 are still detained under section 12(b) as potential witnesses. Correct? Dit mag so wees. Is it more or less correct, does it accord with your..? --- Ek het nie my rekord nou voor my nie. (20 More or less, is it correct, you are in charge of this investigation? --- Ja min of meer edelagbare. More or less correct. 8 are still detained under Section 6 of the Terrorism Act? --- Nee edelagbare nie in hierdie huidige ondersoek nie, net een. Only one? --- in hierdie huidige ondersoek edelagbare. So that is probably why we have seven more and this is why we have 67, so very well we'll take it that only one is still being detained. Seven have been convicted, two specifically in relation to this conspiracy? (30

7 Correct? --- Ja edelagbare, nee korreksie edelagbare, drie. In hierdie spesifieke ondersoek. We'll put it right, I think that our figures are not correct, and there are 6 awaiting trial? --- Korrek. Two were convicted under the Terrorism Act but not in relation to any overall conspiracy but in relation to a specific conspiracy to blow up the Brixton Tower?--- Korrek, dit is waarvoor hulle aangekla was. One person was convicted for contravening the provisions of the Internal Security Act and she got 28 (10 days in prison? --- Dit is nie heeltemal korrek nie, laat ons Geleerde Vriend die hele vonnis uitlees, dit was n opgeskorte vonnis. I beg your pardon, you are quite right. An effective sentence of 28 days? --- Korrek edelagbare. And the other four persons that were convicted were convicted under the prisons act, either for attempting to escape himself in one case and the other three for assisting other persons to escape from prison which has nothing to do with this alleged conspiracy? --- Ek stem (20 nie saam nie edelagbare, die drie wat aangekla was onder die gevangeniswet, was oorspronklik, is dit voorgestel aan die Prokureur-generaal, om hul kragtens die Wet op Terrorisme aan te kla, omdat dit gegaan het om ont- snapping van Mombaris, Jenkin en Lee. Daar is toe anders besluit dat ons hulle kragtens die Wet op Gevangenis aan- kla maar dit het uit hierdie ondersoek voortgespruit. Let's just get the facts. The fact is that of these 67 people, seven were convicted, two under the Terrorism Act, four under the Prisons Nee net drie.

8 Three under the Prisons'Act and one person for attempting to escape himself? --- Nee edelagbare ek ken nie daardie klagte nie, dit is nie een van ons sake nie. We can leave him out, it does not matter- And of those awaiting trial, I want to assure you of the relevance of this Sir, in relation to Dr. Aggett, because we will in fact establish Sir, that Dr. Aggett was not party to any conspiracy and he had nothing to fear and that is why we are putting this question. In relation (10 to the people who are awaiting trial, there is one person charged under the Terrorism Act alone, Miss Hogan I understand? --- Nee ek stem nie saam nie/ She is standing trial alone? --- Maar nie onder die Wet op Terrorisme nie edelagbare. Hoogverraad, die Wet op Terrosisme. You are quite right. There is a Mr. Mason who is again charged on his own with a similar offence? --- Hoogverraad, alternatief.. (Mr. Bizos intervenes) There is a Mr. Fine who is charged, who is to be.(^0 charged in the Regional Court with, I don't know what offence. Those are the three other people that we understand are going to be charged somewhere in another province with some offences that had not yet been specified, correct? --- Nee edelagbare, terloops daardie saak het vandag in die Hof gedien vir uitstel. Twee word oorgeplaas Kaap toe, waar hulle ook blykbaar aangekla word weens Hoogverraad alternatief Wet op Terrorisme. Een word oorgeplaas Natal toe. Let us take the figures as a basis upon which (30

9 ]_3 A.B. Cronwright to distinguish between information and evidence. The 40 people who were released and no charges were brought against them were not shown, could not be established that they were in any way involved in any unlawful activity despite their detention? --- Edelagbare ek stem nie saam met ons Geleerde Vriend nie. A1 die persone sonder uitsondering, wat vrygelaat was, is 'n kennisge- wing kragtens Art. 183(1) van Wet 51/77 is op hom ge- dien dat hy geroep gaan word as 'n Staatsgetuie oor sy handelinge in 'n opset van sameswering. (10? Was that a State saving device? --- Nee edelagbare. MR. SCHABORT: Your Worship I think My Learned Friend is going too far at this stage. He is introducing collateral matters which cannot assist you in coming to any finding in this particular matter. COURT: Mr. Bizos I think you must stop making remarks not relevant. MR. BIZOS: Thank you Your Worship I will. COURT: I want to point out that this is not the first time I must mention this to you. (20 MR. BIZOS: I ll try Your Worship. Your Worship it does show how careful an interrogater has to be and how control has to be exercised over him and I will try my best. COURT: I hope you exercise that control Mr. Bizos. M R. BIZOS : I'll try my best. You see I want to suggest to you that this tremendous conspiracy trial that you say you were busy with was one of the reasons why this pressure was put on Dr. Aggett? --- Ek stem nie saam nie edelagbare. Because the Minister on the 3rd of February 1982 (30 the/...

10 the Minister of Police indicated that there was an extensive and important set of facts which will lead to an important Court case in South African in the next few months. That is what was said on the 3rd of February and he went on to say that people are very concerned about the circumstances under which these people are detained. I would like to say to the honourable members that the detainees in police cells or in prisons are being detained under the most favourable conditions possible. Where possible they are being detained in separate cells. All (10 reasonable precautions are being taken to prevent any of them from injuring themselves or from being injured in some other way or from committing suicide*. Surely honourable members are aware of the serious circumstances in the past. We were all faced with this but during past two or two and a half years there has not been a single serious.case of this nature. There are some honourable members who are well informed on this subject and who know that everything possible is being done to prevent anything irresponsible happening to these people (20 while they are in detention." Are you aware of these two statements made by the Minister of Law and Order? Ek dra nou kennis daarvan en ek stem saam met ons Minister edelagbare en ek glo dat die Vei1igheidstak te John Vorster Plein doen alles in sy vermoe om die belange van 'n aangehoudende te beskerm. But you see, this is what the Minister said on the 3rd. "We are co-operating with the office of the Attorney general to see that their cases as far as possible and to bring them before the Courts as soon as possible."{3(

11 Do you remember that? --- Ja Edelagbare. And did you ever report to your superiors, which got to the Minister, that the investigations have virtually been completed with regard to some of the accused? COURT: What has that got to do With this case Mr. Bizos? M R. BIZOS: Because we will submit Sir, that the pressure put on Dr. Aggett was as a result of pressure to complete the investigation. --- Edelagbare daar gaan van tyd tot tyd verslag na hoofkantoor toe wat ek glo direk aan die Minister gerapporteer word, maar nog nooit het Pretoria op ons druk (10 toegepas om ons ondersoek so gou doenlik af te handel nie. Hoofkantoor inteendeel het besef dat die ondersoek 'n reu- setaak was en dat dit 'n landswye ondersoek was. A1 wat hulle gedoen het hulle het ons net aangemoedig. Do you recall whether during January there was spread widely public disguiet about the number of people detained and the fact that they were not brought to Court? --- Daardie toedrag van sake wat kort-kort opduik oor die ontevredenheid deur sommige lede van die publiek oor die aanhouding van persone kragtens artikel 6, is 'n klagte (20 wat gereeld geopper word. Ek kan niks daaraan doen nie, ek het nie die wette gemaak nie edelagbare. But do you recall that there was this disguiet and if I may use the expression, agitation for either the release or the charging of the people then in detention? --- Nie net in Januarie nie edelagbare, dit is omtrent elke week, elke maand. Does that mean that there was such agitation in January? --- Moontlik in Januarie, moontlik miskien al in Desember, ek het nie geweet nie edelagbare. (30

12 A.B. Cronwright The statement that was signed by Dr. Aggett on the 8th of January, had that been handed to the Attorneygeneral or his representative? --- Edelagbare nee dit sal ek nie kan verklaar nie. Why not? --- Edelagbare ek lees verklarings, dan gee ek dit terug vir die ondersoeker of die ondervraer, as dit volledig afgehandel is dan sal daardie ondersoeker of ondervraer dit direk aan die advokaat besorg vir die nodige bestudering. Who would hand it over to the Attorney-general s (10 representative? --- Dit kon of Luitenant Whitehead gewees het of Kaptein Naude, selfs Sersant van Schalkwyk kon dit gedoen het. * Wat about you yourself? Aren't you really in charge of the investigation and aren't you the person who Oorhoofs edelagbare, maar ek is nie die ondersoekbeampte wat die eindresultaat na die Hof toe gaan neem nie. I'm going to put to you major that your evidence yesterday that the statement of Dr. Aggett was not con- (20 sidered satisfactory.. COURT: You mean on Friday Mr. Bizos. M R. BIZOS: I'm sorry. Your evidence on Friday that the statement of Dr. Aggett was not to your satisfaction or the satisfaction of his interrogaters in the beginning of January cannot be true for that stage. Are you aware of the fact that the statement was signed by Dr. Aggett? --- Edelagbare 'n verklaring wat afgele word kragtens artikel 6 word nie in geheel geteken op die end van die verklaring nie. Die normale prosedure in hierdie (30 opdragte/...

13 opdragte voer ek gereeld uit aan die ondervraers en onder- soekers dat kragtens artikel 6 laat ons nie 'n aangehoudende toe om 'n verklaring te teken nie. Sodra daar besluit word om hom as 'n getuie te roep of aan te hou as 'n getuie word daardie hele verklaring weer aan hom voorgelees. hy dan gevra word om dit te teken en te beedig. Wanneer As sy verklaring in hierdie geval geteken was, is dit sonder my medewete of my kennis het dit geskied. You see you only get him to sign it when you are satisfied with it? --- Dit is korrek edelagbare. (10 And if Dr. Aggett's January statement was signed then whoever got it signed was satisfied with it? --- Ek kan nie se dat hy wel tevrede was nie... (mnr. Bizos kom tus senbeide ). So that he did the procedure Edelagbare ek wil net hier reghelp. Ons het baie ondersoekers bygekry van ander afdelings wat nie kennis dra van die metode van ondersoek of ondervragings nie. Hulle moet gedurigdeur geskool word van die regte prosedure en die metodes. Didn't you read Dr. Aggett's affidavits from time (20 to time in the beginning of January, major? --- Nie sy begin verklaring nie edelagbare. Statement, sorry did I say affidavit, I'm sorry. --- Nie sy begin verklaring nie. Net die inhoud was aan my meegedeel. Then how do you decide whether a statement is satisfactory or not without reading it? --- Edelagbare daar is baie ondersoekers daar by die lode vloer gewees. Elkeen het pligte wat hy moet uitvoer. As ek moet tred hou van elke ondervraging se verklaring dan sal ek heeldag (30

14 en heelnag, meer dan 62 uur net verklarings lees. That may be a reason why you reguire more staff in your place major, but let us just establish the facts. You never read Dr. Aggett's statements? --- Ek het twee van sy verklarings gelees. Not the first one? --- Nie die heel eerste een nie. When you say two, are you speaking of the handwritten one and the typed one? --- Nee edelagbare, al twee is handgeskrewe. Die een is wat ons Vrydag hierso na verwys het, so *n kort enetjie en dan die een wat ge- (10 gaan het oor die ondervraging en die afskryf van sy verklaring vanaf die 28ste Januarie hierdie jaar tot en met die,30ste. So we have it now that Colonel Muller never read his statement and you never read his statement which was signed on the 8th of the first 1982? --- Dit is so. Once a statement is completed, is it indexed Major? --- Nee edelagbare, ek weet nie wat die geleerde vriend daarby bedoel om te se of dit op indeks geplaas is nie, maar dit word op rekord gehou. (20 Whether the statement itself is indexed? --- Ek verstaan nou nog nie wat die geleerde vriend bedoel by indeks nie. You know what I mean that if you write something you index it, that you will find Major Cronwright's name on such and such a page and Colonel Muller's name on such and such a page, that's wat we mean by indexed? --- Edelagbare blykbaar dra ons geleerde vriend meer kennis van hierdie tipe ding as ek, ek dra nie kennis, van soiets

15 It looks to me that I have paid much greater attention in relation to what happened to Dr. Aggett than you did Major and perhaps if you had paid greater attention he might have been with us today. --- Edelagbare eerstens is dit 'n aanval op my persoon wat nou deur die geleerde vriend gemaak word. Ek wil graag onder die Hof se aandag bring dat ek op daardie stadium nie net een aan- gehoudende gehad het om te versorg en na sy belange te kyk nie, maar wel 60 aangehoudendes. Ek ontferm my oor 'n ieder en elkeen van die aangehoudendes nie die een meer (10 dan die ander nie. Major I am going to suggest to his worship and I 0 want you to deal with it that your evidence that you never saw Dr. Aggett's statement dated and completed on the 8th of January and indexed by Dr. Aggett according to your interrogaters and it took him a whole day to do it on the 11th of January, shows a dismal ignorance of what was happening to Dr. Aggett in detention? --- Ek stem nie saam nie edelagbare, ek het die volste vertroue in al die ondervraers gehad en ondersoekers en sonder twyfel wat (20 hulle ook aan my gerapporteer het het ek as die waarheid aanvaar. Just to make absolutely sure that there is no misunderstanding and that no injustice is being done to you major, I would like you to please have a look at the documents before his worship appearing from page 190 to pages 216. Would you just have a look at that and confirm that you have never seen this document before? --- Nee edelagbare, inteendeel dit is nie ons metode eintlik van operasie van n verklaring nie. (30

16 2 A.B. Cronwright Did you or did you not supervise... MR. SCHABORT: Could I just hear the last answer please. --- Veral as 'n aangehoudende kragtens artikel 6 aangehou word. MR. BIZOS: Did you or did you not supervise the interro- gation of Dr. Aggett up to the 11th of January? --- Dit I hang af edelagbare wat 'n mens onder die woord supervisie verstaan... (Mr. Bizos intervenes) Major if you don't know Ek is nog nie klaar nie edelagbare. Please take your time major. --- Ek het bekwame (10 offisiere wat by elke ondervraging diens verrig het. My taak hoofsaaklik was om aan te gaan by die ondervragings, nie soseer om supervisie te hou nie, want ek het my offisiere vertrou en ek vertrou hulle nou nog maar om te kyk of die aangehoudende normaal en kalm is, of hy enige versoeke het en of dit met hom wel gaan. Do you recall what questions My Learned Friend Mr. De Vries asked you on Friday in relation to Dr. Aggett's first statement? Do you recall what the questions were on Friday? --- Ek vra dat my geheue verfris word. (20 Please try and remember what My Learned Friend Mr. De Vries asked you about Dr. Aggett's first statement? Try and remember Major? --- Edelagbare ek kan nie onthou nie maar indien die geleerde vriend daarop aanhou wat my aanbetref sy eerste verklaring was 'n verklaring wat nie geteken was nie, sedert daardie tyd het Dr. Aggett ander kort verklarinkies uitgebring. Om elkeen van hulle te nommer is vir my n onbegonne taak want daar is etlike honderde verklarings vir my om deur te gaan weekliks. n Verklaring word geskryf deur 'n aangehoudende, daardie (30 verklarings/...

17 verklarings word getik, of deur die aangehoudende of deur die tiksters. Dit is vir my omtrent onmoontlik om te se watter is sy eerste verklaring. Do you recall what my guestion was Major? --- Ek het gevra dat ons geleerde vriend my gedagte verfris ede1agbare. Major, you told his worship that the statement made by Dr. Aggett to Captain Naude up to the 8th did not satisfy you, do you recall that? --- Dit is so. How does one become, or rather how can one be dis- (10 satisfied with a statement one has not read, does not know whether it has been signed, about whose existence he does not know or acknowledge?---edelagbare, e k het vroeer aan die Hof gese daar is van my ondervraer en my ondersoekers wat my mondelings kom meedeel wat 'n aangehoudende besig is om kwyt te raak en as daardie ondervraer of ondersoeker se deur sy navorsing kom dit nie ooreen met wat die aangehoudende nou te se het nie, dan is ek heeltemal bereid om te se ek is nie tevrede met daardie verklaring nie, sonder dat ek die verklaring gelees het want (20 ek het die volste vertroue in daardie ondervraer en/of ondersoeker dat hy my die waarheid gaan vertel wat in daardie verklaring staan. DIE HOF VERDAAG VIR MIDDAGETE

18 the/ HOF HFP.VAT : AE CPONWEIGHT (Nog onder eed) verklaar verder : ConSS-EXA?*INATION BY ADV BIZOS (ctd) Major, yesterday when my learned friend Hr de Vries asked you about the statement which appears on page 1Q0 to 216 which was made in the beginning of January, I want to remind you what was said. You were asked whether you were satisfied with that statement, do you recall that? --- Dis reg edelagbare. And your answer was the following? "we were defi- (10 nitelv not satisfied" and you were asked why, because/you said "he was not telling the truth", do you recall that that is what you said? --- Ja edelagbare. And do you abide by that? ^Ek bly nog dieselfde se edelagbare. Nov???ajor how does one decide whether a person has told the truth in a statement if one does not know what it's contents are? --- Edelagbare, weereens wil ek net verklaar die ondersoekers en ondervraers het insae tot al die inligting van 'n ondersoek. Hulle moet die nodige navorsing (20 doen, dan kom doen hulle vers lag oor die inhoud van 'n verklaring of 'n gedeelte van 'n verklaring, en of 'n volledige verklaring in verhouding en vergelvking met die inligting tot ons besk.ikking, en dan doen hulle verslag aan my of ek ooreenstem, aldan nie, en in hierdie geval was daar geen ooreenstemming nie, en was hulle heeltemaal ontevrede en as gevolg van die rapport aan my gemaak, was ek ook derhalwe ontevrede en tevrede dat hulle 'n volledige verslag aan my gedoen het. But I would suggest to you Major that your evidence (30 was clear that you were of the view that he did not tell

19 aehah/ the truth in the statement?---- Edelagbare, die sin wat ny geleerde vriend netnou gelees het is die woord "we were not satisfied gebruik, wat beteken ons was nie tevrede nie, dit sluit myself in. Major, you told us that you read Section 6 to Dr Aggett? --- Dit is korrek edelagbare. / Therefore you must have read it over to detainees many times in your wide experience? - Ek het al so gemaak edelagbare. Who has to be satisfied in terms of the section?---(10 Die Kommissaris van die Polisie edelagbare. But how does the Commissioner satisfy himself as to whether a statement is satisfactory or not, if the Major in charge of the interrogation doesn t even bother to read what a detainee has said after days upon days of interrogation? --- Edelagbare, dis eenvoudig dit, ons doen van tyd tot tyd verslag oor die inhoud van sekere inligting tot ons beskikking wat inkom van tyd tot tyd, asook die inhou van verklarings wat gemaak is of nog steeds in die wording van afle is, en as gevolg van die inligting wat daar behels (20 word, kom die inligting toe wat aan my meegedeel is, van wyle Dr Aggett nie ooreen nie, en die Kommissaris glo ek het die volste vertroue in ons integriteit en verantwoordelikheid om 'n deeglike verslag aan hom te doen. You see Major, according to your interrogators' affidavits, Dr Aggett had spent 98 hours in the interrogation room from the 15th of December to the 8th of January, in order to produce the documents. Now is 98 hours in the interrogation room insufficient to obtain to obtain a statement? --- Edelagbare dit hang af van die inhoud van (30 die verklaring. Ons het baie voorbeelde in die verlede

20 3 / AB Cronwright gehad waar sommige aangehoudenes baie meer ure neem voor hy met die voile waarheid uitkom, volgens die inligting tot ons beskikking, ander weer gouer. Do you concede the possibility Major, in any particular case, that your information may be false and that the person in the position of Dr Aggett did not have any information to qive other than what he furnished in pages 190 to 212? Do you concede that possibility? --- Nee edelagbare, want ek het die volste vertroue in my ondervraers en andersoekers gehad. (10 I see Dat die man nog nie sy hart oopgemaak het nie. But Major, if you had evidence, as distinct from information, if you had evidence against Dr Aggett, which would tend to show that he was guilty of any offence, he would no doubt have been brought to Court long before the 8th of January? --- Nie noodwendig nie edelagbare. Dit is die taak van die ondersoekpersoneel om alle aspekte van 'n ondersoek deeglik te ondersoek, die nodige verklarings te bekom en dan die ondersoek in geheel voor te le aan die nrokureur generaal wie die finale beslissing en/of (20 besluite neem. How would you know objectively that Dr Aggett did not have any further information other than that contained in the document paqe 190 to 212? --- Edelagbare, hier gaan ek in elk geval privilegie pleit, ek self is/in besit van 'n dokument geskryf deur 'n aangeklaagde nou vir Hoogverraad waar sy naam pertinent genoem word as 'n persoon wat deel uitgemaak het van 'n ANC-sel binne-in die Witwatersrand kompleks. After how many days of interrogation did that (30 person/

21 nerson make that statement? --- Edelagbare, dis nie 'n vermarinq wat gemaak is nie, dis 'n dokument wat ek in die hande gekry het, wat ek gaan indien by,'n toekomstige saak wat nou afhangend is. Well assume that that information was wrong? --- Dit is onmoontlik edelagbare, as u die omstandighede vat, hoe ek daardie dokument bekom het, waarvan ek glo ons geleerde vriend 'n redelike kennis alreeds dra, want hy het opgetree in die Robert Adam saak... HOF Robert wat? Robert Adam saak - dis 'n saak (10 wat alreeds afgehandel is, daar het ons geleerde vriend gehoor hoe ek tot sekere dokumente gekom het. ADV BIT,OS Right, let's take you up on this Major. If you had evidence which showed that Dr Aggett was guilty of something, can you explain why there is no evidence whatsoever in this document, page 190 to 212 alluding to it at all? --- Edelagbare dis baie moeilik om te beantwoord, om die rede, ons het alreeds in die verlede ondervind by ondervraging, sommige van die aangehoudenes is genee en hulpvaardig en hulle vertel die hele storie uit die staan- (20 spoor uit, sommige van die aangehoudenes is nie genee om openbaringe te maak nie, dit vat etlike tydperke om daardie openbaringe te bekom. Who was in charge o- the interrogation of Dr Aggett, up to the 8th of..? Vanaf die begin tot die 8ste Januarie was Kaptein Naude in bevel... This information that you now claim you had, was that known to Captain Naude? --- Hy het kennis gedra edelagbare. So ook Luitenant Whitehead, na hy oorgeneem het. When you have evidence, such as you say that you (30 had, isn't the obvious way of dealing with it, is to put the/

22 5 AB Cronwright the evidence before the detainee and say 'just stop your stories, here is the evidence'? ---- Dit is wel gedoen' edelaafcare, soo? ons geleerde vriend alreeds voorheen uit vorige getuienis van van my kon aflei, alle dokumente wat op daardie raanier tot my beskikking gekom het, is gewys aan die aangehcudene. Yes, well if Dr Aggett was in some, way implicated in a document, why wasn't it put before him and why isn't it dealt with in his statement of over 22 pages? «- Edelagbare al wat ek kan vermoed is hy wou niks daaroor ss nie. (10 No but surely the interrogator in order to who that this is an unsatisfactory statement, would put down the following "I do not want to answer questions or I don't know anything about the document that you are showing me, I know nothing about it, I am innocent. t*7hy is there no reference to it in the statement that Captain Naude took? Dis nie noodwendig dat dit in die verklaring w l gaan word nie, want dis 1n negatiewe antwoord edelagbare. Oh? --- Die verklarings wat van Artikel 6 aangehoudenes bekom moet word, moet hy alle vrae tot die tevreden- (20 heid van die Kommissaris van die Polisie, moet hy be- antwoord, hierdie sou definitief dan 'n negatiewe antwoord wees, en daar ons Kommissaris alreeds deur berigte deur van ons kantoor af kennis gedra het van die dokument en sy inhoud, sou ek definitief nie my hoofkantoor of die Kommissaris belas het met 'n negatiewe antwoord nie. But there are negative answers in this -statement if you bother to look at it Major? --- Ek sterh heeltemaal saam edelagbare. It says for instance on page 212 "I know nothing (30 about the SAPP apart from what I have read", they are I negative/

23 wanted/ ,, AB Cronwnaht negative answers? --- Dit is so edelagbare. So that - you know, I just want to take you up - vou know it's very easy to try and convict a person after he's dead -Major, I want to read to you what your Captain Naude recorded in relation to the MIC by Dr Aggett whilst he was still alive, and was able to deal with your allegation - pace 211. "I support the principles of the Freedom Charter as being a basis for a democratic non-racial society in South Africa, with one man one vote. However, I am not a member of the ANC. They seem to be more active outside South Africa than within it, and not very active within the areas that affect people's daily lives. I believe we must fight against apartheid, but this can only be done by involving people in the day-to- day struggle from the factory floor and in the community. What are needed are democratic organisations that people are involved in, and that are controlled by people themselves. This will bring about gradual change in all spheres of life. Without these democratic, open legal organisations there is no guarantee that the people will have any control over their destiny. Most people in this country, Black and White, want to see these changes come about. But this will not be possible through the actions of just a few people, but only through open, mass organisation. Furthermore, there is no democratic control over the leadership of the ANC - their policies may not correspond to what is

24 wanted by the f>outh African people." Nov this is in direct contradiction with v/hat you say you had information about Major, do you agree? --- Korrek edelagbare, wat wyle Dr Aggett daar geskrvf het, is sy eie politieke mening en/of siening. Yes, but now the interrogator that interrogated him, like if I had a piece of evidence which contradicts what you are telling me, you can rest assured that it would not remain in my briefcase Major, the interrogator, if this information was available to Captain Maude, would (10 have said something about the document that you say is in existence, so that Dr Aggett could be given an opportunity to explain it. It wasn't his own document was it? --- Nee edelagbare... It was someone else's document, correct? --- Dit is korrek. Now why was he not given an opportunity by his interrogator under your supervision to deal with the information that you say you had? - - Edelagbare, soos ek alreeds ges het, dit sou net 'n negatiewe antwoord uitgelok het, (20 en ek het definitief namens die Kommissaris nie belang gestel in negatiewe antwoorde nie. No, but this statement is full of negative answers. "I know nothing about this organisation", that's a negative answer. "The V7hite list, as a Trade Unionist I have neither the time nor the inclination to become involved in these circles", why was he not given an opportunity in his lifetime to deal with this? --- Edelagbare, ons het Vrydag hieroor getuig, ongelukkig is dit blykbaar nie toelaatbaar nie, Dr Aggett het 'n geskrif uitgebring wat onder my kennis (30 gebring was op die 3de Februarie. After/

25 Historical Papers, Wits University Collection Number: AK2216 AGGETT, Dr Neil, Inquest, 1982 PUBLISHER: Publisher:- Historical Papers Research Archive Location:- Johannesburg 2013 LEGAL NOTICES: Copyright Notice: All materials on the Historical Papers website are protected by South African copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, or otherwise published in any format, without the prior written permission of the copyright owner. Disclaimer and Terms of Use: Provided that you maintain all copyright and other notices contained therein, you may download material (one machine readable copy and one print copy per page) for your personal and/or educational non-commercial use only. People using these records relating to the archives of Historical Papers, The Library, University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg, are reminded that such records sometimes contain material which is uncorroborated, inaccurate, distorted or untrue. While these digital records are true facsimiles of paper documents and the information contained herein is obtained from sources believed to be accurate and reliable, Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand has not independently verified their content. Consequently, the University is not responsible for any errors or omissions and excludes any and all liability for any errors in or omissions from the information on the website or any related information on third party websites accessible from this website. This document is part of a collection deposited at the Historical Papers Research Archive at The University of the Witwatersrand. 07:52:17 AM]