After how many hours of interrogation - if he did. write it - after how many hours of continuous interrogation?

Transcription

1 After how many hours of interrogation - if he did write it - after how many hours of continuous interrogation? ---Ons geleerde vriend het blykbaar die gegewens, ek het hulle nie nou voor my nie edelagbare. I beg your pardon? I beg your pardon? --- Ek se edelagbare, blykbaar het die geleerde vriend die gegewens voor hom, ek het dit nie nou voor my nie. The question that I am asking you is Major, if this information was available in a document which Dr Aggett had not brought into being, why was he not given an (10 opportunity when he was obviously interrogated about the ANC to deal with it during his lifetime so that he can prove his innocence, so that he can possibly explain it, so that he' could satisfy the Commissioner that the should be released? --- Edelagbare, Dr Aggett was 'n kans gegun deur Kaptein Naude, hy is daaroor ondervra, want di het ek verneem van Kantein Naude, en ek aanvaar sy woord daarvoor, dieselfde gaan ten opsigte van Luitenant Whitehead, wie dieselfde vrae aan hom sou gestel het, en die dokument wat op die 3de ohder my aandag gekom het, het soortgelyke (20 inligting begin behels. I am prepared to assume, even though the document has not been produced, that such a document exists for this purpose, the question is, if a complete statement from the date of birth to the date of his detention, is taken over 22 paaes, and there was this information why was Dr Aggett not asked to deal with it on or before the 8th of January when he said something quite to the contrary to the information that you say is available? Edelagbare ek sal vra dat ons geleerde vriend daardie vraag aan (30 Kaptein Naude stel wanneer hy hier in die boks staan.. T + - ' c /

2 It's not so simple with the greatest respect...(intervention) COURT Mr Bizos you have dealt with this particular point, I suggest you move over to another question. ADV BIZOS As your Worship pleases. Now whilst I am on this DOint do you agree that if you get evidence in the possession of a person which implicates him in the commission of some offence, this is very useful material on which to interrogate him? Tot sekre opsigte edelagbare, maar normaalweg, op een enkele stukkie getuienis wat so waarde- (10 v o 1 is, sal ons nie optree nie, daar moet bevestiging daar- voor w e e s. Yes, now the question was if you find a person in 0 nossession of any incriminating document, the best way of dealing with it is- to ask him to explain them, in his Section 6 statement? -COURT If you find a person in possession of a document? ADV BIZOS Yes, of an incriminating document. I'm moving to another point, I'm not dealing with the point, with the document that the!lajor has dealt with. Do (20 you understand the question Major? > Ek verstaan die vraag edelagbare. Dit is so as sulke dokumente aan sy persoon of in sy onmiddellike beheer gevind word, sal so 'n persoon ondervra word oor so 'n dokument. Yes, and it would be most remiss of an interrogator as experienced as Captain Naude, not to have interrogated Dr Aggett in relation to any such documents? --- Ek kan nie se dat Kaptein Naude hom nie ondervra het oor sulke dokumente nie. Because you see, after Dr A g g e t t's death, three (30 documents purporting to have been issued by the African

3 National Congress, were said to have been found in his b a q, do you remember that Major? --- Edelagbare, ek was nie in die ho? toe daardie qetuienis gegee is nie. Weil, do you know anything about it? --- Ek dra kennis van 'n aantal, ek weet nie wat die getal was nie, van ANC oamflette as ek reg onthou, wat sou onder sy beheer gewees het met sy arrestasie. We know that those documents are not on the list of documents which was drawn up at the time, you know that? Ek dra kennis daarvan edelagbare,. (10 And we've had the evidence of Mr Prins that those were found in his briefcase? --- Ek het nie Adjudantoffisier Prins se getuienis aangehoor nie edelagbare. m Do you know that they were found in his briefcase? --- Ek sal nie weet nie edelagbare, ek was nie by tydens die deursoeking nie«were you there at any time when there was any discussion between Mr Prins and Dr Aggett in relation to these documents? ---- Edelagbare, ek kon moontlik by gewees het, maar ek kan dit nie onthou nie, (20 You can't remember? Nee edelagbare. Was Mr Prins involved in the investigation in this case? --- Edelagbare ja, in di& opsig, ek het hom in beheer gesit van al die bewysstukke wat ingekom het, met die landswye deursoekings wat ons gevoer het, asook die arrestasie, en hy het 'n vol dagtaak elke dag gehad net oor bewysstukke en dokumente. Now would the fact that those three documents were said to have been found in Dr Aggett's bag, have formed a very important bit of information to be given to his (30 interrogator? Dit mag so wees edelagbare, die inhoud van /

4 van die dokumente, ek kan nie se ek het dit ooit qelees nie, want daar is etlike duisende dokumente daar. Yes, I'm not talking about the contents. The fact that r Prins said that three documents were found in Dr Aggett's bag, would that have been an important fact to be conveyed to the interrogator', in order to assist him in the interrogation of Dr Aggett? ~ «Edelagbare, nie 'n belangrike faktor nie, maar wel 'n faktor om 'n ondervraging op voort te sit. But why do you say that i t is not an important (10 aspect? - Edelagbare op die inhoud van ANC pamflet, kan 'n mens nie beskou word as een wat die doelstellings van die ANC bevorder nie. Daar is etlike mense w&t ons al arresteer het in besit van enkele, of in tientalle stukke ANC-oamflette en dit bewys nog nie dat hy die doelstelling van die ANC bevorder nie. No, but that's for the purposes of the Court Major - don't - as an experienced interrogator - don't dozens of questions come to your mind as an interrogator of & person who is found in possession of ANC documents? --- Nee edel- (20 agbare, nie so 'n klein hoeveelheid nie, dis nie so belangrik nie, maar dit is 'n faktor om on te haal by die ondervraging. Ja, presies - let me suggest a couple "where did you get them from", "when did you get them", "how were they delivered to you", "are these the first documents that you got", " are there others that you got", aren t those very natural questions for an interrogator to ask? --- Edelagbare as ons geleerde vriend nou na die drie dokumente verwys wat hy oor praat, ek sal aanneem dat die personeel (30 wat uitoegaan het om Dr Aggett en Dr Liz Floyd te arresteer

5 en wie ook die deursoeking gedoen het, van die perseel, sou daardie dokumente in die kantoor ingebring het. Op hulle beurt was hulle aangese alle dokumente sal in die hande geplaas word van Adjudant-offisier Prins vir insae en om te kyk of hulle geteken is en/of gedateer is, en of daar 'n volledige lvs ongestel is van die bewysstukke waarop 'n klag gele was by die perseel.. Dit sou nie op daardie stadium onder my aandag gekom het nie. Did they never come to your notice? --- Daar het baie dokumente tot my kennis gekom, etlike duisende, en (10 vir my om hier te staan en s ek dra kennis van ieder en elke van daardie dokumente gaan heel ontmoontlik wees edelagbare. Do you agree that the questions that I have suggested are the sort of questions that a proper interrogator doing his work properly would have found necessary to ask of the detainee? - Edelagbare, soos ek alreeds gese het, ek stem saam dat dit 'n faktor is tot ondervraging, maar nie die alleen-faktor is nie. But you see Major, there is nothing in this state- (20 ment - there is nothing in this statement alluding to any documents issued by the ANC having been found in the possession of Dr Aggett? Edelagbare in wie se verklaring is dit nou wat ons geleerde vriend na ver w y s? In Dr Aggett's statement. «* Ek sal nie daarvan kennis dra nie edelagbare. But take an assurance from me, take an assurance from me Major, who has studied the document carefully, that there is nothing in Dr Aggett's statement to suggest that he was asked to explain how his name came to appear'i (30 on the document that you first said, nor how he came to be in/

6 in oossession as it is now alleged, of three A N C-pamphlets. Take that from me, that that is so. Now if that be so, how could anybody, anybody's statement be complete, be signed, be indexed, without referring to those documents if in fact they existed at the time, and if in fact the interrogator knew about them? --- Edelagbare die dokumente sou wel 'n faktoor gewees het in die ondervraging, maar in die verlede, en ek glo dat die ondervraers hierso ook in die geval, alvorens 1n man se verklaring begin sinvol lees, dat hy al sy vrae wat aan hom gestel word ten (10 opsigte van sy bedrywighede, bevredigend beantwoord, dan eers hier teen die einde van so 'n verklaring, word die dokument gebruik waar hy verantwoording moet doen hoe hy in besit daarvan gekom het, of wat die betekenis is van so 'n dokument. But you don't remember anything about those three documents? --- Edelagbare, ek kan nie se dat ek hulle ooit gesien het nie. And shouldn't that have been specially drawn to your attention Major? --- Nie noodwendig nie edelagbare. (20 Ek was hoof in bevel van die totale ondersoek, dit is net onmoontlik vir een persoon om etlike duisende dokumente asook verklarings wat afgel word gedeeltelik of voltooi, plus die inligting wat nog inkom, alles alleen na te vors. Daarom het ek ander offisiere wat net so bevoeg, net so betroubaar, en net so bekwaam is om die werk op my skouers te verlig. If anyone had drawn special attention to them - special attention to them for any particular purposes, would you have remember it? - -- As die dokumente aan my ge- (30 toon was, heel moontlik sou ek dit onthou het edelagbare., 1a;jor/

7 Major, I want to read you a passage form!lr P r i n s' evidence appearing on 390 of the record, line 20 ; "En moet u nie op daardie l er notuleer wanneer Dr Aggett na u toe gebring is en wanneer hy die boeke en dokumente uitgewys het en uitgeken het as syne? --- Nee edelagbare, dit is nie 'n amptelike l er nie wat in gebruik is nie, dit is selgs 'n ISer ora my behulpsaam te wees." "Ja,' maar u weet dat miskien op 'n latere stadium r.'sou dit kbni.betwis word dat hy so 'n erkenning (10 gemaak het of soiets, moet u nie 'n nota daarvan maak en hou? Daarom het ek Hajoor Cronwright na my kantoor ontbied as 'n getuie, en gevra om by te wees edelagbare," 0 Now that was the evidence of Mr Prins? Ek het alreeds ges edelagbare dit kon gebeur het,1 maar ek kan die nie meer onthou nie. But how could you have forgotten something if it was done so deliberately and so purposefully as Mr Prins has described? Edelagbare, op een enkele dag, onder- (20 vind ek, en moet ek bystaan as 'n getuie by etlike dosyn dinge, hierdie ondersoek het gestrek vanaf die 22ste September verlede jaar tot op datum, ons het nog geen finaliteit bereik nie. Dit is vir my menslik onmoontlik om elke insident pertinent te onthou. You see what I am suggesting to you, and you will not really be in a position to either admit it or deny it on your present evidence/ that you can't really say whether Dr Aggett made any such admissions as deposed to by Mr Prins? --- Edelagbare ek het alreeds ges edelagbare, ek (30 kan nie onthou nie, dit mag gebeur het, ek kan nie onthou nie/

8 nie. And what I am going to suggest to you i s, that if such an admission was made, if such an admission was made, one would have found reference to those documents in the statement of the 3th of January, and one finds none?---nie noodwendig nie edelagbare. Well why would they have been left- out? Edelagbare, wanneer 'n man 'n 'verklaring begin maak tot die tevredenheid, sal of my saak eerstens wat ek weet en glo die Kommissaris sal ook m ee tevrede wees, op die einde (10 van die verklaring, dis altyd gedoen in al die gevalle, word dokumente,* publikasies en boeke dan saam met die aangehoudene deurgegaan, dat hy sy verantwoording vir elke stuk dan kan aanbring in sy verklaring. Before the statement is signed? Dit is korrek edelagbare, en die verklaring word nie geteken, dit is opdragte in ons kantoor, terwyl 'n aangehoudene kragtens Artikel 6 'n verklaring afl nie. In hierdie geval, as dit gebeur het en ek het dit self nou gesien, dit was 'n administratiewe fout, (20 But you see, how could such an administrative m i s take occur, because it would appear from this document Major, that not only was it signed, but that it was signed on four successive days? - Edelagbare, ek kan nie verklaar hoekom het die ondersoekbeampte dit so laat geskied nie, dit is teenstrydig met die opdragte, maar daardie Artikel 6 verklaring dra geen gewig in enige van ons Regshowe nie. How. does a-'person when he makes a Section 6 statement, what control has he got as to whether it's his statement or not if he doens't sign it? Edelagbare, soos (30 ek alreeds verklaar het, wanneer daar besluit is deur die/

9 die Prokureur-Generaal om hom 6f vry te laat 6f aan te hou kragtens Artikel 12 (t>l van die Binnelandse Veiliqheidswet as 'n getuie, en hy word onthef van Artikel 6, dan word daardie hele verklaring aan hom voorgele om te lees, en dan kan hy elke bladsy teken en op die laaste bladsy sal hy sy voile naam uit teken', en dan sal hy gevra wocrd om die verklaring te beedig, in die - op aanbeveling van ons kantoor sou die Artikel 6 aangehoudene vrygelaat word, op versoek van die Kommissaris, met sy vrylating, sodra hy onthef i^, sal ons hom dan vra om sy verklaring te (10 teken en te beedig. You know what you are saying.major, that you actually send unsigned statement s to the commissioner - unsigned statements to the Commissioner for the Commissioner to decide whether a person should be released or not? - Edelagbare dis nie wat ek ges het nie. That's what your evidence means. *-- Nee edelagbare, ek ontken dit. Well what does it mean? Ons sit 'n verslag op na ons hoofkantoor ten opsigte van 'n kortlikse weergawe (20 van die verklaring, indien die Kommissaris dan op ons aanbeveling voorstel dat die man vrygelaat word, sal hy dan vrygelaat word, sal sy verklaring geteken word, en sal dit dan eers na die Kommissaris gestuur word. After his release? >-- As die Kommissaris dit so beveel het dat hy vrygelaat word, in die ander geval edelagbare waar die aangehoudene 6f as getuie vrygelaat word, 6f aangehou word, na die verlaring geteken is en na die afhandeling van die verhoorafwagtende saak, word alle sulke verklarings dan deurgestuur na hoofkantoor toe, ter insae. (30 What we do know as a fact is that Dr Aggett's

10 statement was not only signed, but indexed by him. -- Ek het alreeds gese edelagbare, dit was definitief foutief, Whose mistake do you say it was? «* -- Wie ookal ver- antwoordelik daarvoor is, ek weet nie wie is... Who is it? --- Kaptein Naude was in bevel, of hy dit gedoen het weet ek nie, of Luitenant Whitehead dit gedoen het, of toegelaat het, of Sersant van Schalkwyk, ek sal nie dit kan verklaar nie. For how long has Mr Whitehead been working at John Vorster Square? - Edelagbare, dit is baie moeilik om (10 te s, ek dink hy het daar begin, Januarie eintlik eers be gin by ons maar hy het as hulpmiddel na ons toe gekom, hy was nie deel van die ondersoekpersoneel nie, 0 Does he know the procedures adopted at John Vorster Square? ---- Edelagbare watter prosedures verwys o n s-- In relation to the signing and non-signing of statements? - Edelagbare dit was aan hom verduidelik, maar daar is sommige van ons ondersoekers, heel onervare onder- soekers wat dit nog nie behoorlik verstaan nie. And is this a peculiar procedure to John Vorster (20 Sauare, or is it a procedure carried out right through? --- Edelagbare, praat u nou van die prosedure om verklarings nie te teken alvorens hulle losgelaat of aangehou word,,. Yes, Yes,. - - Of vrygelaat word as getuies? Dit is die normale prosedure. Throughout the country? > Hier by John Vorsterplein, ek kan nie verklaar vir ander afdelings nie. But -now you see Major, according to the affidavits of the interrogators under your control, that the typing and the signing and indexing of this statement took five (30 sessions from the 5th of January, the 6th, the 7th, the 8th /

11 8th and the Index was drawn up on the 11th, now how can something be happening in an office on the 10th floor by a person under your direct control, and you know nothing about it? ---- Edelagbare, as ek elke verklaring moet ontvang om te lees, dan bevrees ek sal ons nooit met ons ondersoek klaarkry nie. Daar is nie net verklarings wat moet gelees word nie, daar is sommige van hierdie v e r klarings wat etlike honderde bladsye is, daar is etlike duisende pamflette, publikasies en boeke oor Marxisme, Leninisme, Trioskiism, wat ek moet not alles nagaan, (10 dit is vir my menslik onmoontlik om ieder en elke ve r klaring behoorlike te lees of tot insae h, ek gebruik ander offisiere ook om die werk te verlig. Yes I daresay that the Books on Marxism and Leninism don't change and you don't have to read them every time Major, but leave that aside for a moment, the question was how can something specific like the typing, signino and indexing of a statement be taking place for 5 days w i t h out you knowing what was happening? Ek sal kennis dra dat daar 'n verklaring wel gemaak word, maar of dat hy (20 geteken is, of 'n indeks opgestel is, dit sal ek nie weet nie. Don't your interrogators report to you during or at the end of each day? - Edelagbare, as elke ondervraer wat besig was oor die tydperk, elke oomblik van die dag by my moet kom aanmeld oor sy vordering, dan sou ons nooit deur ons werk gekom het nie. What would they have done with this statement on page 190 to 212, what would they have done with it once it was signed and indexed, what were they supposed to do (30 with it?'-- Edelagbare, eerstens moes die verklaring nie geteken/

12 geteken gewees het, of ge'indeks gewees het nie, die ver- klaring, as die ondervraers gemeen het dat die man wil niks verder praat nie, moes hy weg gevind het na 'n hoof- dossier toe vir navorsing op 'n latere stadium. Dit sou in die kantoor gewees het van Speurder Adjudant-offisier Prins. Hy het beheer gehou oor alle verklarings wat ingekom het asook inligting, asook pamflette, publikasies ensomeer. Who would have decided that this signed, indexed statement was or was not satisfactory? Eerstens (10 edelagbare, die ondervraer, soos ek alreeds ges het. And if we take on face value that it was not an administrative mistake, it would mean would it not, that Captain Maude who was in charge was satisfied, and that is why he got it signed and indexed? * >-- Nie noodwendig nie edelagbare - soos ek alreeds ges het, die metode in ander afdelings kan ek nie voor rekenskap gee nie, Kaptein Naude kom van Oos-Londen af, hy was net aan ons toegese vir hierdie ondersoek. Now one other aspect, small aspect between the lines (20 Major, it would appear from your interrogators' affidavits th&t Dr Aggett was really used for the four of the five days as a typist, because there was no typist available? To type his statement ^ is that the purpose of Section 6, to have people typing away at their statements with two< fingers? ---- Nee edelagbare, inteendeel ons her verskeie aangehoudenes gehad wat hulle eie verklarings getik het. Dit was 'n baie normale versoek wat gerig was aan my deur ondervraers en ondersoekers, dat die aangehoudene verkies om eerder in die kantoor te sit en sv eie v e M a r i n g te (30 tik, want dis 'n beter atmosfeer en beter toestande

13 20 AB Cronwright as daar in die selle, Ek het geen beswaar gehad nie, en ek het geen fout daarmee geyind nie, solank as dit sy eie verklaring was wat hy getik het. You see but in crder to type 22 pages it takes four full days, that hardly advances the date of the - the date of release of the detainee, or doesn't it matter? - Edelagbare, ek kan nie s hoe lank gaan so 'n verklaring vat om te tik nie, ek het geen kennis van tikwerk self nie. Well a competent typist could have done it in an hour, or two? Dit sal ek nie weet nie edelagbare. (10 Ek het baie min te doene met tiksters. You see the subject matter that Dr Aggett was interrogated on, was that a matter that you monitored? Hoe bedoel u edelagbare deur 'monitor'? Do you exercise any control about the sort-of matter that a person is interrogated about? Edelagbare, soos ek alreeds verklaar het in die Hof, ons beskik oor inligting, in die begin van 'n ondervraging is ons nie genee om al die inligting tot ons beskikking aan die aangehoudene bekend te stel nie, Ons wil baie graag sien (20 as ons hom met een of twee brokkies van die inligting voer, of hy nie uit sy eie uit met die hele storie wil kom nie. Indien dit nie anders kan nie, dan sal ons hom meer brokkies inligting gee, tot op die ou end sal ons naderhand alles in 'n skinkbord voor hom nlaas, dat hv weet» f * wat al die inligting is, en kennis wat ons van hom het. I'll repeat the question Major, do you monitor the - or supervise the subject matters upon which Dr Aggett was interrogated? --- Edelagbare, ek gee opdragte aan die ondervraers dat hulle die persoon moet ondervra, en gee hom (30 een of twee brokkies inligting. Hulle sal aan my verslag doen/

14 doen miskien binne twee of drie dae, vat die vordering is, as daar 'n verklaring uitgebring is, sal hulle dan aangess word om daardie verklaring na te vors, met die huidige beskikbare inligting, en dan aan my verslag te doen. I'll repeat the question - do you supervise or monitor the subj ect matters upon which Dr Aggett was interrogated by your interrogators? Edelagbare, ek glo ek het dit nou geantwoord, ek het beheer daaroor uitgeoefen. Now did it come to your notice that Dr Aggett's (10 interrogation dealt with his activities as an official of a lawful trade union? ~ Ek dra kennis dat hy oor sy Vakbond uitgevra is'/ maar ek wil dit net hier in die Hof # regstel, ons ondersoek nie as sulks?n Vakbond nie, maar die beskikbare inligting wat ons ter hand het, gaan om 'n persoon wat binne-in 'n Vakbond is, wat hy moontlik dan kan gebruik as 'n front-organisasie van sy bedrywighede. Derhalwe sal die Vakbond ter sprake kom, maar die ondersoek as sulks gaan nie om die Vakbond nie, maar om die persoon binne-in die vakbond edelagbare. (20 Yes but you see, I want to put to you Major that from page 190 to page 210 of this 22-page document, the interrogation seems to have been concerned with Dr Aggett's Trade Union A c t i v i t i e s a n d his dealings with people in what is generally termed the Trade Union movement, surely y that was not the purpose for which Section 6 of the Terrorism Act was enacted? - Edelagbare, dat hy ondervra sou gewees het oor sv Vakbond se bedrywighede, is dood- normaal, want soos ek verklaar het aan die Hof sy bedrywighede was van kardinale belang binne-in daardie Vakbond, (3 0 hv was 'n persoon van aansien binne-in die Vakbond, ons'-

15 het inligting beskik oor sekez*e feite en bedrywighede wat hy voortgesit het binne-in die vakbond, wat miskien ongelukkig vir.ons eers te berde gekom het, en uitgekom het hier by die 3de Februarie, Major all the books/ documents, receipt books, Bank deposit books and everything else belonging to this Trade Union, were siezed? Ek glo dit sou alles gekon- fiskeer gewees het. And it's still in your possession? * Ek glo so, edelagbare. (10 And the only portion of this 22-<?-page statement dealing with the ANC, SACTU and this SACP and the White List forms five short paragraphs right at the end of this statement? --- Ek sal dit so aanvaar edelagbare, So wo<uld you not agree that these - this period was spent to interrogate Dr Aggett about his personal life, his association with other people and other lawful organisations. in the main? Ek kan nie daarmee saamst.em nie edelagbare, Well,.. Die hoofdoel van die ondervraging (20 was om uit te vind wat Dr Aggett se eie bedrywighede binne die Vakbond was, sy assosiasie wel met ander persone wat moontlik met hom betrek kon gewees het, in sy bedrywighede. Mow i" you had been aware that pages 190 to 210 really dealt with personal and Trade Union matters and not with The ANC, the SACF or the SACTU or the White List, would you have prevented your interrogators from interrogating Dr Aggett upon matters which obviously had nothing to do with the purposes for which Section 6 was enacted? - Nee, nie noodwendig nie edelagbare, (30 Now/

16 Mow I want to ask you please, as an example, in paragraph 5 of this document,1 what did his personal relationship with Dr Floyd have to do going back to Constantia in 1974 with an investigation under the Terrorism Act? ---- Kan u asseblief edelagbare net daardie vraag laat herhaal? What did Dr Aggett's personal relationship with Dr Floy$, going back to Constantia in 1974, have to do with the Terrorism Act? Edelagbare, dit moes ons vasstel, daar was bewerings en daar was inligting, en my (10 kantoor en Hoofkantoor is gladnie tevrede met die kort verklaring in die oosig afgel deur Dr Floyd inteendeel, dit mag nog heroorweeg word om haar weereens te arresteer en verder te ondervra. I am sure that Dr Aggett who has been sitting in this Court - Dr Floyd, wfro has been sitting in this court will manage to live with the threat that you have uttered Major Cronwright, but I'd like to ask you please - what did the personal relationship between the two, going back to 1974, why was it necessary to interrogate him, or take a (20 statement with him, as to what was between Dr Floyd and him in 1974? --- Edelagbare, soos ek alreeds ges, ons was in besit van inligting, wat opgeklaar moes word, And what did it have to do with the Terrorism Act, who his lecturers were, and who were the people who influenced him at the University in paragraph 6? Edelagbare, dit kon baie daarmee te doene gehad het, dit was vir ons om te probeer vasstel wat die verbintenis of verband w a s. And what did his relationship with the Balak (30 Allied Workers' Union have to do with the Terrorism Act? COURT/

17 COURT Mr Bizos, I cannot allow you to continue with this line of cross-examination, please make your point and move on to other points, -ADV BIZ OS Allright'/ I'll make it in a general - would you please have a look at page,,. COURT I think you will appreciate that we have to deal with matters relevant to this enquiry* ^APV BIZOS As your Worship pleases - I just want to generalise it, on page 215 and 216 there are over 3 0 organisations mentioned in Dr Aggett's statement, which except (10 for four or five,' are all lawful organisations. Do you accept that? --- Dit is moontlik dat dit in die verklaring is, ek het nie die verklaring voor tny nie. Now why should a person be interrogated under the Terrorism Act about -r in relation to his association with lawful organisations? ^ Edelagbare, soos ek alreeds ges het, ons wou sy verbintenis met sy vakbond, en/of ander geafillieerde Vakbotide vasgestel het', of hy sy eie Vakbond en/of geafillieerde vakbonde of suster-yakbonde gebruik as 'n front-organisasie, Dit was die hoofdoel van (20 hierdie ondervraging, Major, were you asked to produce all documents relating to Dr Aggett, either by the investigating officer, or the prosecutor or both? --- Edelagbare, die persoon wat eintlik genader was ten opsigte van wyle Dr Aggett, ten opsigte van dokumente ensomeer was Brigadier Muller asook deur Brigadier Muller na Luitenant Whitehead toe. Ek persoonlik -was nie gevra vir dokuiliente, behalwe deur Advokaat de Vries toe hy op 'n geleentheid op die lode vloer was, het ek die telex berig aan hom getoon ongeveer 2 weke (30 na/

18 admissions/ na wyle Dr Aggett se dood en hy het toe gevra datek die dokument moet beskikbaar h indien die Hof dit benodig. To come Back to December Major, you told us this morning that Dr Aggett told you that he was not ready to be interrogated? --- Dit was op die llde Desember 1981 edelagbare, Were you alone with him when that was said? Ek het nie gess hy het gese hy is nie bereid om ondervra te word nie,1 hy het ges hy woo. niks s op hierdie stadium nie. Yes, actually I think that we are both wrong in (10 relation to what you said this morning, X now remember precisely what you said Major, that he was not yet ready to N be interrogated, do you recall that? Dit kan so wees. Yes Woorde tot daardie effek. Yes.» Ilaar daar was niks gepraat oor ondervraging n i e. Were the two of you \alone when this was s a i d? --- Ek was heeltemaal aleen saam met hom in my kantoor, And did you take that as an indication that he had to be detained for a little longer? Nee edelagbare, (20 wat ek wel aan Dr Aggett gess het, "Dr ons sal u nou selle toe stuur, indien u m6re of oormsre bereid gaan wees om te praat oor hierdie ondersoek, kan u net vir my 'n boodskap laat stuur, wat baie al in die toekoms gebeur het, ek het geen boodskap ontvang nie, binne die eerste twee-drie dae dae. Nevery~you always had to take the initiative? - Nie altyd nie edelagbare. But now that's not Mr Prins' evidence in relation to the attitude of Dr Aggett. Ilr Prins' evidence was (30 that he was very ready to talk and to make damaging

19 wat/ admissions against himself, on the very day of his arrival from Pr^-'-oria? - Dit mag wees dat Adjudantoffisier so verklaar het, maar hy het nie aan my daardie indikasie gegee nie. Would there have been any reason for Dr Aggett's attitude to have been different to you on the same day than it was to Mr Prins?? Edelagbare baie moontlik, as ek kan aanvaar wat ons geleerde vri'end hier ges het dat Adjudantoffisier Prins aan hom sejtere pamflette qetoon het, en dit word ook beweer ek was teenwoordig, wat ek se moontlik (10 was, ek kan dit nie onthou nie, het Dr Aggett moontlik gesien dat ons meer weet van hom as wat voorgegee was, maar ek kan nie daardie houding verklaar nie. And Mr Naude says about Dr Aggett's general disposition the following? Paragraph 15, page 2 - "Dr Aggett was 'n aangename persoon wie spontaan op vrae geantwoord het, en was altyd in 'n gemoedelike stemming." That also seems to be different to your experience? Ja ek kan nie verklaar vir wat Kaptein Naude hom gevind het (20 nie, hy was heel aan die begin die hoof-ondervraer edelagbare, hy het meer met wyle Dr Aggett te doene gehad as ekself, But now from whom did you get information that Dr Aggett was untruthful, in relation to his first statement? Van Luitenant Whitehead edelagbare. But now - but who was the person responsible for the interrogation? --- Dit was Kaptein Naude, What did Captain Naude say about it? --- Hy het ook saamgestem edelagbare, want Luitenant Whitehead was (30 versoek deur homself om navorsing te doen op 'n verklaring

20 wat gemaak was met inligting wat ons tot ons beskikking gehad het. Let us just get some firm evidence on this important point Major,' when did Captain Maude tell you that he thought that Dr Aggett was not telling him the truth? When he did he agree with Itr Whitehead that Dr Aggett was not telling the truth? ---- Edelagbare ek dink dit was hier teen die einde van die eerste week van Januarie - ek kan nie die presiese datum onthou nie. Now you see Captain Naude says nothing like that (10 in his affidavit but he says the very opposite, he says; "Dr Aggett was 'n aangename persoon, wie spontaan op vrae geantwoord het, en was altvi <in 'n gemoedelike stemming,'' Now that is hardly the description of an untruthful person who had'made an unsatisfactory statement? Edelagbare dit mag wees dat Kaptein Naude die aangehoudene so gevind het, op vrae wat deur hom gestel ewas, en dat hy Kaptein Naude se vrae bevredigend geantwoord het, maar dit het geen oortreding,' of the pleging van n oortreding uitgemaak (20 nie, Dat hy wel miskien op vrae beantwoord het, dit kan so wees. Ek kan nie verklaar wat vir Kaptein Naude ges was nie, of deur hom aanvaar was nie. We are testing your evidence Major, of how you found Dr Aggett, and what Captain Naude said to you about it? - Edelagbare ek het alreeds in die hof verklaar, dat ek het gevind dat Dr Aggett normaal en kdlm voorgekom het. Wat sy ondervraging aanbetref het ek nie deel aangehad nie. Daar was aan my verslag gedoen, teen die einde van die eerste week in Januarie, (30 You see because we are going to argue before his Worshin/

21 Worship.Major, I want to give you an opportunity to deal with it if you'd like to, that Dr Aggett told the truth in this 22^-page statement, but that thereafter, thirddegree methods were used to try and persuade him to make a statement to implicate himself in matters on which he was innocent? --- Ek kan nie daarmee saamstem nie edelagbare. Mow was there any special reason why Captain Maude went away? - Edelagbare, ek het die ondervraers en ondersoekers by elke aangehoudene van tyd tot tyd gewissel, hiervoor was 'n baie groot rede. Die omvang van hier (10 die ondersoek was so wyd dat elke ondervraer en ondersoeker moes die geleentheid gebied word om 'n algehele kennis op te doen en te hs van die ondersoek in die algemeen. Ek kon nie elke dag elke ondersoeker en ondervraer meedeel wat die vordering is, en elke aangehoudene se ondervraging nie, dit sou te veel gewees het op een persoon om dit te behartig. So het al die ondervraers en ondersoekers, glo ek, 'n vindingryke ondervinding opgedoen en kennis in bree trekke opgedoen van die ondersoek in geheel. That may be very interesting in a general1term, (20 but Caotain Maude goes away, he was assisted by Mr Whitehead and Mr Whitehead was not changed, Mr Whitehead took over? Edelagbare, daarvoor kan ek ook vir die Hof s hoekom. Toe Luitenant Whitehead aan my toegese was om behulpsaam te wees met die ondersoek was dit pertinent onder my aandag gebring dat Luitenant Whitehead op Vakiiond- gebied 'n deskundige was, dus was sy lyn van werk by die veiligheidstak. Tweedens, het hy wyle Dr Aggett vir 3 jaar lank self positiewe aandag geskenk. Die inligting wat daardie man gehad het ten opsigte van Dr Aggett (30 speek/

22 spreek glo e k, boekdele, Ek het die volste vertroue in daardie man gehad om voort te gaan en ek het geen rede om te glo aan daardie man se integriteit nie, of sy betroubaarheid nie, Kaptein Maude was gebruik daarna op ander ondervraging en elders op die ondersoek, hy was nie gebind op een spesifieke ondersoek nie, So ook was dieselfde Kaptein gebruik ten opsigte van Dr Liz Floyd. So ook was dieselfde Kaptein behulpsaam by die hantering van bewysstukke. But Captain Naude was assisted by Mr Whitehead (10 before this statement was completed and signed, do you agree? ---- Dit is so edelagbare. You are not suggesting th^t Luitenant Whitehead would have kept any information back from his* Captain on which useful questions could have been asked? ---- Nee, ek gaan dit nie se nie edelagbare, ek weet nie wat het daar by die ondervraging geskied terwyl die twee persone met Dr Aggett besig was nie, Btxt one wcbuld have expected Mr Whitehead to have had whatever information - whatever information was available (20 to Mr Whitehead, would of necessity have been carried over to Mr Naude, from the 21st of December to the 11th of January when the statement was completed and signed? ---- Ek glo dit het gebeur edelagbare, maar soos ek gese het in die begin voer ons net stukkies en brokkies, ons gee nie al die inligting tot ons beskikking vir 'n aangehoudene nie, met ander woorde, ons speel nie al ons kaarte oop nie. Do you keep the information away from the interrogator as well? Nee edelagbare. Is the suggestion then that Captain Naude and Mr (30 Whitehead had more information but they went through the charade/

23 charade of completing the statement and indexing it on the 11th of January, still having information which was not put? ---- Dit is so edelagbare, maar dat daardie ve r klaring geteken is,' en ge indeks is, ss ek weereens, is 1n administratiewe fout. Can you recall when Mr Whitehead took an active part in the interrogation of Dr Aggett? --- Ek glo as ek reg onthou edelagbare, dit was Flier heel in die begin van Januarie moontlik. Miskien gedeeltelik in Desember, einde Desember, ek kan nie meer die datum onthou nie, (10 Yes, well it w old appear according to the affidavit that 'he was there on the 21st, 22nd, 23rd, 24th, 28th, 29th, 31st,' the 4th, the 5th and the 11th? --- Ek sal dit so aanvaar edelagbare. When the index was drawn? Ek het alreeds ges dit was of begin Januarie of teen die einde Desember, wat hy daar behulpsaam was, Ek kan nie meer die datum onthou n i e. Can you recall what happened between the 11th and the 20th in relation to Dr Aggett? Ek dink ek het al- (20 reeds verlaar edelagbare, ek herhaal - indien Dr Aggett in daardie tyd na die lode vloer gebring was vir ondervraging dan sou ek by hom ingeloer het, en met hom gepraat het. Would there have been any reason for him having been left between the 12th and the 19.th in his cell all the time? --- Dit hang af van die ondervraers edelagbare, en ondersoekers, of hulle met navorsing besig was of hulle v/as besia om ander verklarings te lees om te kyk of daar verdere inligting is wat beskikbaar tot ons is (30 tot ons ondervraging, die sou hulle genotuleer het,

24 en genoteer het, en daarop ook gewerk het. Would you agree with what Dr Liz Floyd will tell his Worship, as a witness in this case, that Dr Aggett and she, Dr Floyd, knew that they were being followed day and night for a number of years? Dit is vir my 'n openbaring. Ek weet dat Dr Aggett het aandag geniet, dit het onder my aandag gekom na ek meegedeel was deur Luitenant Whitehead, maar dit is die eerste keer wat ek nou hierdie erkenning in die Hof hoor. You see, Dr Aggett and Dr Floyd knew that they (10 were under constant surveillance because they believed someone strongly disapproved of their Trade Union activities? --- Dit ontken ek Edelagbare, soos ek*alreeds ges het, ons is nie daar om *n Vakbond as sulks te ondersoek nie, dit is die persone binne die Vakbond, 'n Bakbond kan nie 'n oortreding pleeg nie,' maar as die persone binne die Vakbond wat bedrywighede dalk kan voortsit, of sal voortsit, wat ten nadele van die RSA is, dit wil s& om mense aan te huts of aan te spoor tot algemene stakings, boikot (20 aksies en sekere eise aan die fabrieke en/of industriee ensomeer, maar die vakbond as sulks is nie die oortreder nie. Now as Mr Whitehead one of the persons that followed Dr Aggett around for a couple of years? *-- So het ek verneem edelagbare, ek het persoonlik self nie kennis daarvan nie. Now therefore it would not have been necessary for Mr Whitehead to be briefed during the 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th and 13th of January, he knew quite a lot abo<ut (30 Dr Aggett? - Nie noodwendig deur agtervolging nie edelagbare/

25 bare, nartykeer kom 'n raens op weinige inligti'ng af op daardie inetode. Dit is 1n sieldodende werk en partykeer.. i en normaalweg, baie vrugteloos. Now dould you agree Major that if a person has been stalking another for a couple of years, feelings nay develop in the person who is doing the watching, which are not particularly friendly towards the. suspect? < - Ek kan nie daarmee saamstem nie edelagbare,,,* Well would you say the opposite is the truth? Ekskuus edelagbare, ek is nog nie klaar nie edelag- (10 bare ekself, toe ek 'n jonqer polisieman was, was geen werk I vir my te veeleisend nie, e k het elke oomblik geniet van 0 agtervolging, en daar was geen kwaai gevoelens nie, is nie of jy daardie spesifieke aand of aande resultate bekom nie, maar op die ou end gaan dit vrugte afwerp, want ons glo, die wat werk. sal beloon word vir die sweet wat hy verloor het. Yes, that's perhaps one of the very points that I Dit wanted to make to his Worship Major, Assume that Dr Aggett was innocent, Mr Whitehead would have spent two (20 years of his life following him without any reward for the sweat of his labour? Ek stem nie daarmee saam nie edelagbare. Dit kon miskien tien jaar geduur het, dit kon moontlik 12 jaar geduur het. Ekself het persoonlike kennis van 'n persoon wat ek agtervolg het vir 6 jaar, tot vandag toe het ek geen resultate gelewer nie, ek het geen kwaai gevoelens teenoor daardie persoon nie, en ek het geen rede tot kwaai gevoelens tot daardie persoon nie. You're still trying though Major? - Ja edelagbare, ek probeer nog. (30 - Good/

26 Good, but don't you aqree that it would be dangerous to allow a person that had devoted so much time to follow someone without results, that he may want to take some shortcuts in order to get results Major? Ek glo nie, en ek weet nie eintlik wat die geleerde vriend nou praat van kortpaadjies nie. Like keeping someone in the interrogation room for 62 hours? Ek glo nie dis 'n kortpaadjie nie edelagbare. Yes, well perhaps it's a long way to try and get a quick result. Major,, (10 COURT I think when we call Luitenant Whitehead to the witness box, you can cross-examine him on that particular point. " -ADV BIZQS As your Worship pleases <- I'll go on. N ow on the 2 5th of January, there appears to have been a new * period of interrogation, was that a s a result of a conference, or any advice given by you, or did Mr Whitehead take it on his own? - Edelagbare, na ek vir Luitenant Whitehead versoek het om beheer te vat van die ondervraging van Dr Aggett, het hy merendeels op eie inisiatief aange- (20 gaan met die goedkeuring van myself af, en na hy met m y die aangeleentheid bespreek het. Did you give him any advice as to what he was to do, or did you leave the method to him alone? Edelagbare daar is geen loodregte reel van 'n metode van ondervraging nie, Elke aangehoudene word ondervra deur verskeie ondervraers op sy eie spesifieke meriete. fly eie metodes mag miskien nie werk op al die aangehoudenes nie, want ek glo jy wen die aangehoudene se vertroue, en na jy sy vertroue gewen het, dat hy in jou naderhand so glo dat hy (30 eerder met jou sal gesels en sy hart oopmaak as met 'n

27 ander ondervraer. Die metode van ondervraging hang af van die ondersoeker self, Die enigste opdragte wat gedurigdeur deur myself onder die aandag van die onder- soekers en ondervraers gebring was, is die veiligheid en die behandeling ten opsigte van elke aangehoudene. Sover so dat die ondersoekpersoneel het talle registers aangebring om sekere klagtes, ongerymdhede ensovoorts uit die weg uit te ruim, maar blykbaar het dit nie in die doel geslaag nie. Are we to accept that your answer is no you didn't (10 give him any special instructions? Nie op 'n metode van ondervraging nie. Yes, thankyou, that would have been a*shorter answer Major. N o w did Mr Swanepoel join Mr Whitehead at any stage? - Ek dra nie kennis van 'n mnr Swanepoel nie, maar wel van 'n Kaptein Swanepoel, Did you ever indicate him to help wit h the interrogation of Dr Aggett? Kaptein Swanepoel? Yes? - Dit mag so wees edelagbare. Gan you recall whether you did so, and if so, why? (20 ---"liskien een of tweekeer. If so, why? ---- Edelagbare, weereens dis 'n man wat aan ons toegese was. Yes, but has he got any speciality, why did you choose on Mr Swanepoel? Nee, hy het geen spesialiteit nie,maar dat hy wel kon ondervindina opdoen by 'n ondervraging. Did you do it or did Mr Whitehead choose him? Nee ek het.die man toegesi. Did you ever indicate Mr de Bruyn as one of the (30 interrogators of Dr Aggett? --- Ek het hom ook on 'n beurt

28 Historical Papers, Wits University Collection Number: AK2216 AGGETT, Dr Neil, Inquest, 1982 PUBLISHER: Publisher:- Historical Papers Research Archive Location:- Johannesburg 2013 LEGAL NOTICES: Copyright Notice: All materials on the Historical Papers website are protected by South African copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, or otherwise published in any format, without the prior written permission of the copyright owner. Disclaimer and Terms of Use: Provided that you maintain all copyright and other notices contained therein, you may download material (one machine readable copy and one print copy per page) for your personal and/or educational non-commercial use only. People using these records relating to the archives of Historical Papers, The Library, University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg, are reminded that such records sometimes contain material which is uncorroborated, inaccurate, distorted or untrue. While these digital records are true facsimiles of paper documents and the information contained herein is obtained from sources believed to be accurate and reliable, Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand has not independently verified their content. Consequently, the University is not responsible for any errors or omissions and excludes any and all liability for any errors in or omissions from the information on the website or any related information on third party websites accessible from this website. This document is part of a collection deposited at the Historical Papers Research Archive at The University of the Witwatersrand. 07:52:17 AM]