IN THE SUPREME COURT OF SOUTH AFRICA (TRANSVAAL PROVINCIAL DIVISION) In the matter of : / VOLUNE 102 PAGES

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1 W K /VfCWíNtyJ2r /'ÍKokV) IN THE SUPREME COURT OF SOUTH AFRICA (TRANSVAAL PROVINCIAL DIVISION) CASE NO. 18/75/254 In the matter of : / DATE; 1st JUNE 1976 THE STATE y ' t o z VS S. COOPER AM) EIGHT OTHERS VOLUNE 102 PAGES LUBBE RECORDINGS (PRETORIA)

2 /VMD SEDIBE COURT RESUMES ON 24th M Y 1976 MR. ATTWELL ADDRESSES COURT: M'lord, unfortunately the learned judge hearing this case is indisposed, and I beg leave and I ask the Court by arrangement to postpone this matter until next Tuesday the 1st June 1976, the accused to remain in custody. POSTPONED TO 1st JUNE 1976 COURT ADJOURNS COURT RESUMES ON 1st JUNE 1976 GILBERT KABORANE SEDIBE. STILL UNDER OATH: 10 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. REES: Mr. Sedibe, at that rally on the 25th, Turfloop students were carrying this banner. I would like it just to be opened if I may, M'lord, that banner reads in black large letters, and it is a very big banner on a piece of white material and it is painted "Frelimo" in black, and then the words "killed and won in red, "South African Blacks", do you see that?-- Yes. And that banner was displayed and carried that day on the evidence, up and down the soccer field?-- v/ell it might be so, but I never noticed it. 20 You did not notice it? -- No, I did not. What does that banner mean when you look at it? -- Well, it is posing a question, it is stating a fact and then afterwards it is posing a question. What is the fact that it states?-- It says "Frelimo killed and won". Yes, is that based on fact or n o t?-- Well I believe to a certain extent it may be so in fact to a certain extent I think. You were the man who made it your business to make 30 a /...

3 SEDIBE a speech about Frelimo's history, it is not a question of maybe, either you know it is so or you don't? Well I mean it may be a fact that Prelimo killed, but that is why I say I don't believe it is because he killed therefore they won, that is what I am saying. That is what that banner portrayed there, not so? -- Portrayed what? That Frelimo killed and w o n?-- Well that is what that person maybe says. Is there any reason why you should not have seen 10 such a banner? -- Well if I didn't see it, Mr. Rees, should I give a reason why I didn't see it. Yes, I want to know, you were there, if anybody in this Court now says he did not see that banner, then I am entitled to ask him why didn't he see it? -- Well I didn't see it, I don't know, I have got no reason to give but I didn't see it. That is good enough, you didn't see it. Also are you telling the Court that you didn't see the banners that were exhibited in the hall, the placards and banners that 20 were exhibited in the hall?-- Your Lordship, banners were never exhibited in the hall as far as I am aware. Were any placards exhibited in the hall? -- Well I didn't see any placards also. Did you see any of these placards at all that were * exhibited here in Court on that day?-- No, I didn't see any* Not one of them?-- Your Lordship, I have already pointed out one banner which has got a hand on Southern Africa, that is the one I saw, on the education bloc. Is that the only one you saw? - That is the one I 30 remember /...

4 SEDIBE remember having seen. You were the chairman of the SRC?-- Yes, that is correct. And your organisation dished out the papers? -- Yes. And the other material, didn't you? -- Yes. For the people to prepare banners and placards? -- That is correct. What all did the SRC supply to the students?-- Well we gave them banners, these blank placards. Yes, and what else? - Well I wasn't there. 10 What else did you give them, you were the man who was chairman of the committee which made the decision? -- Your Lordship I have already indicated to the Court that Ledwaba and Rathlagane were the ones who were responsible for dishing out the placards, so as far as I am aware they gave the students the placards, the blank placards. You were the man who was the chairman of the SRC weren't y o u?-- Yes, that is correct, but Your Lordship it is always like that, that the president of the SRC will 20 always ask some other person and give him the mandate to do a certain job, it is not that I will always be there doing every other thing. But you know what is happening, you make it your function to know what is happening, don't y o u?-- Well they were to report, I mean that is correct, they were to report afterwards what they did. So you didn't at any stage try to find out what they had done?-- About what? About the placards and the banners and what they 30 had /...

5 SEDIBE had dished o a t?-- Well they told me they gave the students the blank placards. And what else did they give them?-- No, they did not tell me anything. How were the students to paint on the placards or the banners?-- Well, Your Lordship, I mean on the campus there are students who would be doing biology, geography and many other things in the social work department, they always use placards, you find them in their halls where they draw things and all that, perhaps they must have known 10 that they would use those things. You knew they had paints and things available?-- No, I didn't know anything about that. You did not?-- No. You didn't think how they were going to paint these placards did you? -- No, placards are not to be painted, Mr. Rees, they were to write on them. Mmmm. You were chairman also of the formation school you told us about on the 21st-22nd September were you not, you were chairman of the Bantustans commission?-- Yes, the20 t one I have given evidence about. And the one to which Exhibit SASO 0.1 refers? -- Part of it, yes, is contained in that document. The most important part of the commission is the recommendation isn't i t?-- Well I don't know about that, Mr. Rees, where do you get that from? I am asking you?-- No - Don't ask me any questions? It is not. Not, what is the most important part of the commission? -- The whole document as it is there is important. 30 And /...

6 SEDIBE And ine report back, isn't that important? -- I don't understand, Your Lordship, what Mr. Rees means. Well if you have got a commission you have got to report "back and say what your commission decided and what they are recommending, isn't that so? -- Well that is correct. And that is a very important part of a commission's activities, isn't that so? -- Well, I don't see, Mr. Rees, how it can be important, "because..(mr. Rees intervenes) I don't think you should address me, you should 10 address His Lordship* I am..(witness intervenes) -- I am addressing him, that is what I am doing here, I am talking to the Court I mean, that is what I am doing. I don t believe, Your Lordship, there is a certain phase where you can say a commission is important here, here it is not important, because I believe the whole report as it is to be given, the whole of it, the whole procedure is important, all about it. An important part of the proceedings is the fact that you report back to the meeting, or report back about what 20 your conclusions were, what your activities were? -- Well as far as I am concerned, Your Lordship, I believe the most important is to give your ideas to the organisation. Yes, and you participated fully in the discussions didn't you, you were the chairman?-- Not fully. * You were the chairman?-- I was the chairman. Is there any reason why you shouldn't participate fully in the discussions of the formation school? -- Yes, there was a reason, I mean as far as I am concerned I am clear about what SASO for instance stands for, I mean I 30 have /..

7 SEDIBE have been well vested with the policies of SASO J. (sic) that, so really I was there to see to it there was order in the commission and all that, just for procedure s sake let me put it like that. And you say you were clear about SASO's policies? -- That is correct. And you were clear about what conscientisation means? -- Yes, I know conscientisation. And you could have assisted and directed the thoughts of the students there couldn't you? -- Your Lordship, as 10 I put it the aim of the commission is to get ideas from students and also to see where students for instance have lost certain definitions of words, this is the general idea which the organisation wishes to get from students, where certain things have got to be clarified and all that. To get ideas to see where people are lost and then to come and clarify those issues. But you were an important man, that was a small commission, how many members did it have? -- Y/ell I believe it had about 30 members. 20 You were the chairman, or the chairman of the SRO and a prominent member of SASO, isn't that s o?-- Prominent as far as I was involved in the feeding scheme project at Turfloop, in that sense yes. And you had gone on your own to this Students * Council Meeting at Hammanskraal?-- Except that not only prominent members of SASO go there, any person can go there. But you went because you were extremely interested? -- Well I was interested, but that, Your Lordship, does 30 not /...

8 SEDIBB not make me a prominent member of SASO. Oh, with all this knowledge did you do anything to guide the thoughts of the students on what conscientisation means at this formation school? -- Your Lordship, I have already said that we wanted to get ideas from the students, so I was not to guide any person, I was there for the sake of procedure in that commission. Oh no you were not, you were the chairman of that commission? -- That is correct. And that report went in under your chairmanship? That is correct. Are you telling the Court you didn't know what was in that report?-- Well I knew, I mean they discussed all this when I was there, Mr. Rees. Yes, then you knew exactly -what was in that report? -- Well..(Mr. Rees intervenes) You knew this was the recommendation that was going from that commission to SASO?-- Well I couldn't say I knew, I have already pointed out, Your Lordship, that these recommendations were made towards the end of the 20 sitting of the commission. Students were already saying: no, it is time for supper, let us leave, and all that, qnd they were just putting these recommendations without discussing them. You are a man - hut they wouldn't put recommendations % that were not in accordance with the general discussions of the day would they?-- Well that is another thing, Hr. Rees, but that is how we discussed in the commission. You see you are a man who doesn't hear the most important things that happen at a commission, and who- doesn't30 see /...

9 SEDIBE see the most important banners that are displayed just a few days afterwards at the rally? -- Yes, Mr. Rees, if I didn t see them what does that mean, I mean I cannot say because I did not see these things therefore it means I am interested in them or not, I didn t see them, it stops there, if I didn't see a thing, Tour Lordship, it is just too bad, I didn't see it. Yes, the chairman, the chairman of the SRC, a man who has so little - so little interest in what is going on in the matters in which he was interested in? -- I 10 had little interest in what, Mr. Rees? Yes? -- In what? Little interest in what was going on, little interest in what was going on you say? -- Your Lordship I never said I had little interest, you know, Mr. Rees, I don't understand you, when you say..(mr. Rees intervenes) Did you have a lot of interest? -- I mean I was like any other person there in the commission, I believe we were all interested. You were the chairman?-- That is correct. 20 You were the chairman, your people dished out - you were the chairman of the SRC that dished out papers for the placard? -- That is correct. And you say you didn't know what was on them?-- About what? Upon the placards that were displayed in the hall where you were?-- Well I didn't see them, Mr. Rees, I didn't see the placards, that is what I am saying. You didn't even see them on the soccer field? -- Well yes, I didn't see them. 30 Yes /...

10 SEDIBE Yes. You say you got some legal advice on the 25th? -- That is correct. Did you. go and speak to the legal people?-- That is correct. You told us who you sought it from, what did you tell these people what exactly was the point on which you wanted advice, what information' did you give them? -- Your Lordship, after we had seen the Dean of students and he told us about..(mr. Rees intervenes) I just want to know, what did you say to the man you asked advice from?-- I want to give the background. Please tell me, answer my question in point, what did you say to the man that you asked advice o f?-- Your Lordship, I went to them with the Daily Mail, I asked them guys, there is a banning order on the SASO and BPC rallies, we have got advice that the SRC will not be affected, what is your view about that. Is that all you said to them?-- Yes, that is correct. What information did you give tne Rector on which he based his "advice'1 (in inverted commas)?-- Information about what? About the rally?-- Well the Dean wanted to know from us that as far as he was concerned, he hoped that students who were to attend classes that afternoon would not boycott classes just because of the rally, the Rector had sought legal advice about the banning, and he had found that it could not affect the SRC rally, he had already asked the chairman of the SASO local committee whether SASO had organised the rally, and he was assured that /...

11 SEDIBB that SASO was not involved in the organisation of the rally at Turfloop, that is the information he wanted to get from us - not to get from us rather to make sure really that the information he had got was true, that the SRC was organising the rally. So in fact the information on which the Rector based his advice to you was your statement to him that SASO was not involved in the rally?-- No, they had got that from the SASO local committee chairman himself, not from us. 10 Well, did you confirm that information?-- Yes, we confirmed it. That SASO was not involved? -- Yes. You didn't tell him that you had billed the SASO national chairman as the first speaker did you?-- Well a3 far as we were concerned, I mean, he was out because of the banning, so there was no need of telling him, it was out. When did you decide that he was out? -- When we left the Dean of students. 20 Did you hold a meeting or what did you do? -- Yes, we held a - I mean we,just decided after we had met the Dean that the SASO guys are out of the rally now. Was that in consequence of the advice you had been given? -- That is correct. c I see. SASO and BPC were trying to gain support from the Black people were they n o t?-- Not SASO, BPC perhaps, SASO has got the support of the students so really I wouldn't see SASO considering Your Lordship for membership because it has got the support of the students. 30 Listen /...

12 Listen to my question please, was SASO trying to get support of the Black people? -- Not that I am aware of. Are you sure about that? -- Yes. Would you like to qualify that remark? -- Well, Your Lordship, as I say I know that SASO has got the support of the Black students, and that is where its membership is derived from. How was SASO going to achieve the liberation or participate in the achievement of the liberation of the Black people?-- Well, Your Lordship, SASO as far as I see it was to bring ideas to the Black people as to what we should strive for, the liberation of the Black people, not that I thought SASO had perhaps had a certain programme, as I understood it, it was to bring ideas of Black people coming together and then trying to bargain from that position, when they have got the support of the Black people. Did conscientising play any part in bringing ideas to the Black people? -- Well, I should think so. You think so? -- Yes. And did these community schemes play any part in bringing ideas to the Black people?-- No, not that I am aware of SEDIBE Did rallies play any part in bringing ideas to the «Black people? -- Not that I am aware of. Did speeches play any part in bringing ideas to the Black people?-- I am not very aware of that, perhaps to a certain extent, Mr* Rees, I don t know, I mean I have been involved in SASO only and I have never seen SASO addressing people other than students..

13 SEDIBE I am talking about students, I mean people include students or don't they?-- Well I mean on the campus we were time and again addressed by SASO people. Yes, the addresses by SASO did that play a part in bringing ideas to the students? -- Well, I may take an example of myself, Your Lordship, SASO had never really brought ideas to me really, it is only that it has tried to channel my grievances with those of others, but it brought no ideas to me. Did SASO seek to channel your grievances? -- Not to channel my grievances, to bring together my grievances with those of others, so that we can talk as an organisation, as a body. But to bring together your ideas with those of others, is that not to channel the grievances? -- No, I wouldn't say so. Well tell us then? -- It is just to bring together people who have got the same feeling and then to talk as a body. How does SASO know which people have the same feeling? -- Well really, ^r. Rees, Your Lordship, I believe it is common oause that Black people feel the same in this country, we feel oppressed, so..(mr. Rees intervenes) How do you know that?-- Know what? What other Black people feel? -- But I stay with Black people, Mr. Rees, I mean, Your Lordship, I was born in a Black community, I grew up there so I know what they feel. Why are you people then opposed to the Bantustan leaders /...

14 SEDIBB leaders and the people who follow them? -- Tour Lordship, I think I have got to point out here that we are not opposed to the Bantustan leaders per se as individuals, we are opposed to their politics, their politics of participating in institutions of fraud. So their politics are different to yours? -- Well as far as participating in apartheid - in the politics of apartheid, that is where we are different from them. Therefore they differ from you, therefore when you are talking about all Blacks feeling the same, you are 10 just sucking it out of your thumb, aren't you -- No, Mr. Rees, I have already said, Your Lordship, that our politics differ in that they are participating in apartheid. Yes, you want to bring all the grievances together, do you or don't y o u?-- Not to bring the grievances together, to bring the people who feel the same to talk as a person. Yes, and you have already told us that conscientisation plays a part in that?-- No, I have never said that, I 20 have said it may be, not that I am aware, it may play a part but not that I am aware. Does conscientisation - make up your mind - does conscientisation play a part in that or doesn't it? - It may play, I - PAUSE - # Don't you know n o w?-- Well I mean, Mr. Rees, I really..(mr. Rees intervenes) How do you set about then bringing people together if you don't do anything about it, what do you d o?-- I mean we talk as a people with the same feelings, that is 30 how /...

15 SEDD3E how we come together, on the basis of our oppression. So you make speeches? Not necessarily speeches. What then? -- I mean, Mr. Rees, to talk to Black people like this I don't have to make a speech about that, I know what they feel, I tell them we have got to do this so that we can achieve our liberation, I don't have to make speeches about that. What about the rallies? -- Rallies? What was the purpose of a rally?-- Your lordship, as I have already pointed out to this Court, we held the 10 rally at Turfloop to pledge our solidarity for the new government which was created in Mozambique. Yes, and what effect did that have on the students, to bring them together, didn't it, solidify their ideas didn't it? -- Well the students, Mr. Rees, as I have already told you, the students as far as I am aware on the campuses, they are a solid block on the campus. A solid block? -- Yes, that is correct. And they have these ideas which they have expressed on the placards, you knew that didn't y o u?-- 1/ell I 20 didn't know that they held them, I mean, it is probable that some of them might have, but not that I knew that they had them. Well you say they are a solid block, and here they have produced their ideas very solidly, very clearly, haven t they? -- What ideas Mr. Rees? The ideas that are expressed in these documents? -- Well I wouldn't say it is the students, it is some individuals on the campus. But a moment ago you said they are all a solid block? 30 I /...

16 SEDIBE I mean the students on the Black campuses are a solid block in that they are all supporters of SASO in that sense. Yes, and they all expressed their ideas in the same way, didn t they?-- Not thax they expressed their ideas in the same way. Now you say you know what the minds of the Black people are and what their thoughts are, you don*t have to find them out? Veil I mean what Black people feel definitely. You know what you would like them to feel don t y o u?-- Not what I would like them to feel, I know, Mr* Rees, I know my father has been working at the mine since 1950, and when I was arrested I knew that he was being paid R45, I know that..(mr. Rees intervenes) Just a moment, plus what did your father get? -- Plus what? What was he getting, R45 basic salary plus what? -- Nothing. Medical aid? -- I did.. (Mr. Rees intervenes) Was he getting medical aid yes or n o?-- He was not getting it, Your Lordship, because at those mines I paid for medical expenses myself. How much did you pay at the mines when you get medical attention?-- I just forget how much I paid, but it..(mr. Rees intervenes) It is a nominal amount?-- I know I paid myself. You pay a nominal amount don t y o u?-- Well, Your Lordship I don t understand, what Mr* Rees means by a nominal amount.

17 SEDIBE A very small amount, probably one-twentieth of what I pay, isn't that s o?-- How much do you pay Mr. Rees? How much do you pay, tell u s?-- I say Your Lordship I have forgotten how much I paid, but I remember I paid, I was refused that I am already a grown-up I cannot just come to the hospital and say my father works on the mines therefore I have got to get free medical attention, I was made to pay, I know that as a fact. All right, so your father does get free medical attention for himself and his minor children and his family does he? -- I don't know whether it is free, Your Lordship, as I understood from him that they withdraw from their wages, it is not free. You had to pay because you were an adult, haven t you hidden something from the Court?-- Well, that is where, Your Lordship, now Mr. Rees is coming, I had to pay, that is correct, I had to pay. (sic) You had to pay because you say you were an adult? -- No, not that really I am an adult, perhaps because I am a major. You told the Court a moment ago you had to pay they said you are now a major you must p a y?-- That is correct. And before you were a major?-- Well I never really grew up at Penge I never used to attend - I was not a sickly person myself, so I might have gone to the hospital twice or thrice really. So you don't know therefore whether or not your father /...

18 SEDIBB father gets medical benefits from the mine?-- No, I -wouldn t say he gets medical benefits because I understood that they withdraw from their wages, to pay for the medical benefits as you may put it. Now "when I send any Black man to the clinic here in Pretoria or Pietermaritzburg and Durban, he gets treatment for 50 cents which it costs me sometimes R50, are you aware of that, do you deny that?-- Well, Your Lordship, I am not aware of that, but this is the kind of thing that we are against. Mr. Rees will come to us and say: look how we Whites do things for you Blacks but you are still displeased with all we are doing. If Mr. Rees you feel that Black people pay 50 cents and they cannot pay R50, 'why is it that they cannot pay R50 and they pay 50 cents? You just answer the questions? -- No. You answer the questions, are you wanting to say something to His Lordship?-- Your Lordship, I have already said that I am not aware that Black people pay 50 cents. You came here with the proposition that your father got R45 a month?-- Xes> that is correct. Was it rand or pounds? -- Rand. And I asked you what were the benefits that he got with i t?-- Well, I don t know of any benefits that he got. Does your father get any rations? -- Well that is correct. Right, what does he g e t?-- Well once a week they were given meat. Yes /..

19 SEDIBE Yes? -- Bat as I understood it, Your Lordship, this was also part of their wage, they had to withdraw from their wages to sort of redistribute them to all the people on the mines, that is how I understood it to be. So your father gets R45> plus he gets rations, plus he gets quarters does he not, a place to stay? -- Yes. For M m and his family?-- Yes, that is correct. And he gets medical advantages?-- Well he himself, yes, himself and perhaps the minor children. 10 Yes, so you see you try to create a false picture here? - What false picture, Mr. Rees? That your father got R 4 5?-- Of course he got R45» is that false? Yes, because it is not the whole story isn*t it? -- What whole story now? The story you have just told us, you are being very ' clever but you are not being as clever as you think you axe, isn't that s o?-- PAUSE You have got no answer?-- To what? 20 Are you still trying to be impertinent in addition? -- For what? Well see if you can answer some other questions, this rally was intended - perhaps your friend Mr. Cooper is finding something very interesting, would you like to find out what he is finding so interesting that he is laughing about, then you can have a session in prison as to how you should answer? Answer what, Mr. Rees? Answer my questions. HR. SOG-GrOT: M'lord, with respect..(ilr. Rees intervenes) 30 Mr. /...

20 SEDIBB MR. REES: I am entitled to ask questions. MR. SOGrG-OT: Well I am entitled to object, M'lord, I do want to submit to cross-examine this witness on why Mr. Cooper.is laughing may be close to being a sheer waste of time. MR. REES: I want to know from you whether you and Accused No.l discussed how you should answer the questions?-- No, we never discussed how to answer questions. Because Accused No.l seems very amused at your 10 performance at the moment?-- Am I performing, Mr. Rees, Your Lordship, I was not aware of that. Right, then please answer the questions that I put to you now. Was this rally intended to focus attention on Frelimo at a l l?-- It was intended to celebrate with Frelimo for having got the government of Mozambique. Was it intended to focus attention on Frelimo, yes or n o?-- Well I wouldn't say that, that is why, Your Lordship, I am giving the purpose for holding the rally. Was it intended to focus attention on Frelimo? No. G-ood. Was it intended to focus attention on the fact that Frelimo had gained independence?-- To celebrate that independence, yes. Was it intended to focus attention on the fact that Frelimo had gained independence? -- That is correct. You realised that people would think about the history of Frelimo wouldn't they? -- Well I wouldn't think so, the history of Frelimo is very relevant to me for instance, I wouldn't - PAUSE - 30 Very /...

21 SEDIBE Very relevant to you? -- I mean I don t mind, I don t care anything about the history of Frelimo, I am only aware of the fact that they are a government in Mozambique, that is what I am concerned with. You were the man who was going to deliver a speech on the history of Frelimo, you made it your business to be the speaker? -- I didn't make it my business, Your Lordship, I was asked by the members of the SRC to do that. You were the chairman?-- That is correct. They thought it was important, the SRC of which you were chairman, that people should know the history of Frelimo? -- Well not that they should know it, I believe, Your Lordship, it was a matter of trying first to share what Frelimo did, not to bring ideas to people. And Frelimo had in fact killed?-- Well, that is correct. And Frelimo had in fact w o n?-- Well they had won, that is correct, but not because of the killing. Frelimo had according to you in fact made the Whites run?-- Well not that I am aware of. That is what your placards said? -- Well I don't know, perhaps that is what the individual may be thinking. Did the Whites run or didn t they in Mozambique? -- Well Your Lordship as far as I am aware there are still Whites in Mozambique up to now..(mr. Rees intervenes) Did the Whites run or didn't they in Mozambique? -- Whites and Blacks as far as I am aware ran out of Mozambique, some of them, but there are still Whites there in Mozambique as far as I know.

22 SEDIBE You realised at that stage by organising this rally you placed the government in an embarrassing situation?-- No, Your Lordship, I wouldn't say so, because the government itself in South Africa was saying they wished to sort of welcome Frelimo as a government in Mozambique. Did you expect anything else from the government, did you expect it show open hostility or something to Frelimo?-- Well I don't know Your Lordship, I don't know whether they had secret hostility, I mean they were very open to Frelimo, I mean they are friendly to Frelimo, that is how I understand it to be. Did you expect the government to show any than the correct attitude to a neighbouring government?-- ITo, well I never expected that. Right, so the position you placed the government in was the following, wasn't it, if they stopped your rally which you advertise as a viva and a pro Frelimo rally, they would be placed in the position that Frelimo could regard it as an unfriendly act, isn't it? -- Your Lordship, we never thought the government would stop our rally for one thing..(mr. Rees intervenes) Just answer my question please?-- That is how I can answer the question, I never thought they would stop the rallies. # If the government stopped your rallies, Frelimo could regard it as an unfriendly act, isn't that so? -- Well I don't know really I cannot speak for Frelimo. Don't you want to apply your mind to i t?-- Well, if I have got to apply my mind, Mr. Rees, I don't know, I have /...

23 SEDIBE have got to have all the facts, why they would regard it as an unfriendly thing by the government in South Africa. If the government did not stop the rally, large sections of the community in South Africa could regard it as the government closing its eye to the fact that people were encouraging emulation of Frelimo1s methods? -- No, Tour Lordship, it is not like that, because the government itself was saying: we want friendly relationship, we are welcoming a Frelimo in Mozambique, so how iir. Rees 10 could people now say our rallies are going to bring such emulation of Frelimo. Is that all you want to say?-- Of course. Was there anything that prevented you seeing the throwing of stones on that d a y?-- Your Lordship, I have already said I moved towards the northern side with the women trying to drive them away to their hostels. Did you become aware of the fact that stones were being thrown?-- No, I was not aware of that, Your Lordship. Did you or anybody make any effort to speak to 20 the police that day? -- That is correct. Did you?-- Yes. When?-- When I was told, Your Lordship, that the cripple had been assaulted and he was lying on the embankment, I went there to see him, after that I picked 0 him up and I went..(hr. Rees intervenes) No, we have got that evidence, what I am interested in, did you at any stage before that make any effort, you or anybody on your behalf to speak to the police?-- Yes, members of the SRC they reported to me that for instance 30 the /...

24 SEDIBE the vice-president, Mr. Mangwate, that he tried to talk with the major and he tried to show him that our rally was not in any way involved with SASO or BPC. I want to know what you did, you yourself, when you - well you saw the police were coming, didn*t y o u?-- Well it was already in the hall, we were already..(mr. Rees intervenes) But you were aware of the fact that the police were coming?-- Well I was aware of the major when he was standing at the door. 10 Did you make any effort to communicate with him and put him in the picture? -- The vice-president as I say was talking to him. Did the vice-president do so on your authority or with your knowledge, or cn his own?-- The vice-president of the SRC was doing that on behalf of the SRC and the students. Did you know what he was going to say to the major or was he acting on his own? -- Well since the major came there to tell us that our rally was a SASO one, he would 20 definitely tell him that our rally was not a SASO one. Listen, I just want to know, whether what was happening was happening in prior consultation with you or did he do it in his capacity as vice-chairman?-- Well he did it as vice-president of the SRC. Without you necessarily knowing what he was going to say or d o?-- Well I would have said the same things. I am not interested in what you would have said, I just want to know what the facts are? -- I was far from him, he could not have consulted me. 30 Right /...

25 SEDIBB Right, that is all I wanted to know. COURT: Why didn't you go to h i m?-- Well, Your Lordship, perhaps if I can get the photo to show where I was standing there in the hall? (PAUSE) IffijREES: Can you suggest why your vice-president was trying to he insulting towards the major? -- Well he never told me that he was insulting to the major. You heard the major say that he referred to him as constable and said: Constable, come to my office? -- That is what I got in this Court, Your lordship. 10 That was not intended to be placatory towards the police or negotiate with them was i t?-- Well, what I got from him is that he told the major: let us go to the office, let me talk with you to explain about the rally, that is what he told me. COURT: But what I can't understand is, you are the president, why would the vice-president want to talk to the major in the vice-president's office?-- Your Lordship I just want to indicate where I was standing in the hall, - PAUSE - 20 Yes, but if he can take iiie major to his office, he can also get you out of the hall?-- Yes, that is correct, but the point is I was standing right at - you know, at a place where I couldn't easily go out, the students were full in front of me, so really he thought perhaps it 0 would be good if somebody was still in the hall to try to talk with the students in the meantime whilst he was continuing. KR. REES: You could have said to the students: here is a matter I would like to go and clarify, there are a lot of 30 police /...

26 SEDIBE Right, that is all I wanted to know. COURT: Why didn't you go to h i m?-- Viell, Tour Lordship, perhaps if I can get the photo to show where I was standing there in the hall? (PAUSE) HR.REES: Can you suggest why your vice-president was trying to be insulting towards the major? -- Well he never told me that he was insulting to the major. You heard the major say that he referred to him as constable and said: Constable, come to my office? -- That is what I got in this Court, Your lordship. 10 That was not intended to be placatory towards the police or negotiate with them was it? -- Well, what I got from him is that he told the major: let us go to the office, let me talk with you to explain about the rally, that is what he told me. COURT: But what I can't understand is, you are the president, why would the vice-president want to talk to the major in the vice-president s office? -- Your Lordship I just want to indicate where I was standing in the hall, - PAUSE - 20 Yes, but if he can take the major to his office, he can also get you out of the hall?-- Yes, that is correct, but the point is I was standing right at - you know, at a place where I couldn't easily go out, the students were full in front of me, so really he thought perhaps it would be good if somebody was still in the hall to try to talk with the students in the meantime whilst he was continuing. MR. REES: You could have said to the students: here is a matter I would like to go and clarify, there are a lot of 30 police /...

27 SEDIBE police here, I must go and find out from them what is going on, stay here or sit down for a moment? -- PAUSE - looking for photographs - Are you asking for a particular photograph which you say the Defence produced?-- Yes, those are the ones which show the inside of the hall. On this one, Your lordship, RALLY 3.63.' How would you just tell the Court, when was this photograph RALLY B.63 taken?-- Well it was taken by Mr. Pitman recently. Mr. Pitman?-- Yes. A11 right, carry on? -- Well, Your Lordship, firstly the chairs were facing west. That is the same way as they are facing now? -- No, no, they are facing north now. Yes, the chairs were facing west? -- Now where I stood, it is also not shown, I thought perhaps it is shown, "but it was right against the wall far from both double doors on the western side, so the students were filling this place both sides of the hall, so the door as Your Lordship sees is right here. There is a passageway down there isn t there, a passageway, the students must be able to get in and get o at?-- No, you see, that is the difficulty I believe, Mr. Rees, that I couldn t go out because the students after moving into the hall they closed the chairs, you see we don t have passages, regular passages where you say: here we have got to make a passage so that people can pass. Usually, even when we have a film show, you find that you have your passage, but afterwards you find that the passage has already been closed when the students

28 SEDIBE start moving the chairs around. COURT: Well, were the students not seated at the time? -- They were seated, Your Lordship, at that time, so Mahwate was standing at the doer which was where the major was standing. And you? -- I was standing right on the western side so it was quite far from him. Anyway he could see you and you could see him? -- I could see him, hut except that some students were standing against the wall, so if perhaps he wanted me to come to talk to him he could have called me, but I think perhaps he thought he could clarify the matter to the major, and didn t think it was necessary to call me. But that is what I cannot understand, that the president and the vice-president are present at the same function, why the vice-president will take over? -- Because, Your Lordship, I was far from him. No, it doesn't matter how far the president is, I mean you are the president at that function?-- Yes, but Your Lordship, he can also do matters of the SRC, I mean functions..(court intervenes) Bat it is your, function, it is a function of the SRC and you are the president?-- That is correct. But here the vice-president stands and talks to "the major, and invites him to go and talk to him in his office? -- Yes, to clarify the major on the points. But he is not the man to satisfy the major, you are the man who represents the students, you are the president?-- Yes, except that the president can also represent the SRC, I mean he can talk on what the

29 SEDIBE SRC thinks..(court intervenes) Any member of the SRC can do that, but what w i H you do if an ordinary member represents the SRC and you are present, you are the president? - If I am free I will go and represent the SRC, but if the circumstances are such that I cannot, I mean it is better if there is a member of the SRC to talk on behalf of the SRC. But isn t there a door also on the western side? -- There is, Your Lordship, as I say I was right in the middle of the hall, I was far from the western - the 10 double door on this side and on my left hand side also, on both sides - I was right in the middle of the hall, and these doors are towards the end of the hall. I-IR. REES: Now, there was nothing there which prevented you from saying to the students: will you just keep orderly for a little bit, I want to go and talk to the police, and tell them exactly what is what and ask them to leave the campus, there was nothing to prevent you from doing that was there? -- Prom doing what, Mr. Rees? What I have just said?-- I mean I have already 20 explained Your Lordship that the vice-president was talking to him, and I jnean he never approached me, he felt perhaps that what I could have said he could say it. COURT: And Ledwaba was also there, so I mean if Ledwaba was talking to the officer, you would have said it is all right Ledwaba will speak to h i m?-- Well, if I was free I could have talked on behalf of the SRC rather than Ledwaba and talk to him. Why rather, you are busy here you say, the students interrupted you and prevented you from going to the police? 30 That /...

30 -- That is correct SEDIBE So Ledwaba could attend to the police, and do you think Ledwaba would have done s o?-- Well, Tour Lordship, there were other members.of the SRC he could r\ have gone with them there, I mean mangwate was not alone as far as I am aware, there were some other members of the SRC with him. MR. REES: But the point is you did nothing?-- Well I couldn't go there because of what I have already told the Court. Tou couldn't because you found it a little bit inconvenient? -- Not a little bit..(court intervenes) COURT: You see the second point where you did nothing and I am also going to put it to you that you also did nothing and you were the president of the SRC and you say it is your meeting, all right. MR. REES: Why did you want the police to leave the campus0 -- Well we felt that ihe rally was over, and so there was no need, we promised them that the rally would not continue and they said then they were leaving. Why did you want them to leave?-- Well, I mean we were talking there with members of BASA that the police really came to stop the rally and since the rally would not continue then it is better for them to leave the campus. Why did you want them to leave,why would it be better for them to leave?-- Well there was no reason why they should be on the campus, Mr. Rees, I mean on the campus v/e don't stay with police. Why n o t?-- Well just like that, the situation

31 SEDIBE has been like that, I mean I found it like that on the campus. Why did you want the police to leave that day?-- The rally was over. Yes? -- And they had come to stop the rally. How did you know, you had not spoken to them? -- They told me when we were talking to the major. Would you say the students who prepared these banners and placards before the Court, did they know more about ibrelimo than you did, or did they know the same about Frelimo than you d i d?-- Well as far as I am - I only derived my knowledge of Frelimo from the pa,pers, I believe they read papers they must have got the same information as I did. Do you think they knew what you knew?-- Yes. And these placards are a fair reflection of what you think the students knew?-- Well I wouldn't - perhaps it may be like that but I am not very well aware of that. Now when you were speaking these placards were available for anyone to see weren t they? -- PAUSE When you went to address the students?-- Well I did not see them as I.have already said. Do you dispute they were there?-- Well I -would not dispute that but I did not see them. Would you have a look at EXHIBIT RALLY B.6, that was written on the wall "Mozambique free - Azania?" That is correct. What message does that convey to you?-- Well, it is asking, well perhaps what about Azania. What about Azania doing what?-- Well Mozambique is /...

32 SEDIBE is free what about Azania? Yes, so, just explain it to us, just carry it further what it means?-- ITo, he says Azania is not free most probably, that is perhaps the question that he is posing. Look at the other one EXHIBIT RALLY B.7, that reads: "Vorster watch the writing on the wall? -- Yes. Now obviously it does not refer to that paint scribbling on the wall does it? -- Well I wouldn't say it refers to it, Mr. Rees. I believe it is just a method of expression which is used by most people when they refer to something, something is clear, the writing is on the wall something is clear. Something is clear?-- Mmmm This they associate with Frelimo don't they, the writing is on the wall?-- I wouldn't say perhaps - they associate perhaps that with the liberation of Black people. Yes, the writing is on the wall, Frelimo killed and w o n?-- No, not like that, Mr. Rees. Now, Frelimo killed and won, that was the writing on the wall wasn't i t?-- Well I..(Mr. Rees intervenes) It wasn't on the wall that was the writing on the banner?-- Well that is correct, but is that true that Frelimo killed and won? Are you asking m e? -- That is what I am asking, that placard, is that true? Are you now suggesting that Frelimo did not kill and w i n?-- No, I am suggesting that they did not win because they killed. Oh /...

33 the government. Oh., why did they win then? They were given After they had killed? - Hot after they had killed, they were given..(hr. Rees intervenes) Before they killed? -- Well I believe in the process, I mean they were fighting. And then they w o n?-- Not and then they won. Then they were given the government?-- They were given the government in 1974» After they had killed? -- Well, not after - well, they had killed, Mr. Rees, but I wouldn't say it is because after they had killed. - $001 - SEDIBE Were you one of the first out of the hall that day after the police arrived? -- No, I remained inside to see that the students leave the hall. At what stage did you leave then? -- I was called by these legal students to come..(mr. Rees intervenes) At what stage did you leave the hall, was the hall empty? -- No, it was not yet empty there were still some students there in the hall, they were leaving.: How many would you say were still in the hall? -- Well about 200, something like that. How many had there been in the hall? -- The hall was full so about a thousand might have been in the hall. And in all this you say you didn t see any of the * placards at all? -- No, I did not see them. Did you look? -- Well I mean, Your Lordship, I was around in the hall so I could have seen them - PAUSE - Did you expect them to bring banners and placards into the hall?-- Well, really, I should think the placards /

34 S EDIBE placards as the SRC gives them out they were meant for the rally. Where was the rally then?-- In the hall. So you expected to see placards there? -- Well not really, they might have brought them, Mr. Rees, I mean they couldn't have surprised me if they had them there. Did you expect them there? -- Yes. Then did you look for them? -- Ho, I did not look for them. 10 Did you enquire, did you say: where are these placards that we dished out all this paper for? -- Well, really, Mr. Rees, Your Lordship, the rally was not the placards it was what was going to be talked in the hall, so they were just there as an accompaniment. It was an accompaniment?-- Yes. To what was going to be talked in the hall? -- Hot what was going to be talked in the hall but as part of the rally. What was the purpose of the placards, why did you 20 want placards? -- Well as Rathlagane brought this idea he felt that...(mr. Rees intervenes) Why did you want them, why did you want them? -- It was an idea of Rathlagane when we were in the SRC meeting, when we were formalising the holding of the rally that he felt that students should bring placards to the rally, that is when I told Tri.m sitting there in the hall, well we have got to explain, gentlemen, that we don't want a demonstration, that is when I started telling them, we must also inform the students because it is very important. Why /...

35 SEDIBE Why did you want the placards?-- Well Rathlagane felt that it lias important that well, we would have placards as part of the rally. Why, to do what, what purpose were placards to serve? -- To express our solidarity with Frelimo. To express your solidarity? -- That is correct. And you told the students they could write what they like?-- No, I did not. How else were they to express their feelings? -- Well they have got feelings in connection with the 10 celebration of independence with Frelimo. And those were the feelings they had to express? -- Of the independence, yes, they had to express feelings, their attitude, the attitude of Black people towards the independence in Mozambique. Exactly the same as they expressed them at the formation school?-- Not like that. You knew what attitudes had been expressed at the formation school? -- We 11 I wasn't really aware, I mean these things at the formation school, Mr. Rees, they didn't 20 cling to my head that this is important, it was just, I mean, part of - PAUSE You see the same basic ideas were expressed at your rally?-- Yes. Not different ideas, isn't that so? -- Well I wouldn't say the same basic, Mr. Rees, I mean these placards really are a minor part of those perhaps which were written by the students. Why didn't you produce the others if you say they were a minor part?-- Well they were taken by the police, 30 as f...

36 SEDIBE as I understand the police evidence here in Court. There was nothing to prevent you, if the police had taken the placards there was nothing preventing you from getting them. Tour Counsel and his attorney went on your instructions and got everything and had insight into everything the police had, why. haven t they laid these things before Court if as you suggest there were other types of placards? -- That is the problem, Tour Lordship, we told them that there were other placards but so far as I could 10 gather from the Security Branch officers in Pietersburg they couldn't trace them. The Security Branch and the policemen who took these things were here in Court, why didn t you..(mr. Soggot intervenes) MR. SOOKjOT: M'lord, may I indicate on this point that the Defence has in fact written letters and has been attempting to get the other posters. I-IR. REBS: If my learned friend wants to give evidence he may go into the witness box. Well, I suggest to you 20 that they didn t do so because there were not other placards to be produced? -- There were other placards. Well what was written on the other placards? -- Well I cannot remember, they were merely placards, I cannot remember. Tell the Court anything you can remember about other placards? -- Well as far as I remember they were expressions of solidarity with Mozambique. Like what, give the Court some examples? -- I can't really remember an example of them. 30 Tou /...

37 I SEDIBE j I 6 I Toa can t remember at all?-- No. You are suggesting that these were a minor part of what was there? -- Because as the SRC members told me they bought about 300 blank placards and gave them to j the students. Blank papers? -- That is correct. And gave them to the students? -- That is correct. So you expected about 300 at least? -- That is correct. And you say you saw only one?-- When? 10 You, the chairman? -- Saw one when, Mr. Rees? Well you tell us, I understood you to tell the Court you only saw one? -- I say the placards that I am aware of and I read is that one with the hand moving from North Africa. What did that placard convey to you? -- Well, it i was referring to colonialism in Mozambique that it is done away with. But that hand is grasping South Africa as well isn't it, the Republic as well? -- Well it may be like 20 that, I mean as part of Southern Africa, I mean Mozambique is part of Southern Africa, he might have understood it that way. That hand was grasping the whole of Southern Africa and the whole of the Republic wasn t i t?-- Well the whole of Southern Africa. And therefore that symbolises that that hand is going to do - that hand symbolises that the Blacks are going to do to the whole of Africa what has just happened j I I i i I i [ j in Mozambique, isn t i t?-- I mean colonialism yes has got / i I Ii

38 SEDIBE got to come to an end. That is the colonialism is where you are living? -- Well, I wouldn't say that, perhaps as I say, Mr. Rees, he was thinking of Rhodesia for instance. But it is not Rhodesia that is there, you people are not interested in Rhodesia coming to an end, you are interested in colonialism as you call it coming to an end in the Republic of South Africa? -- Well everywhere in Southern Africa. That is better, that is better, that is the 10 symbolism of RALLY B.12, isn't i t?-- That is correct. ITow do you still say that this rally was not intended to emulate the methods of Frelimo?-- That is correct, it was not intended to do that. But it wanted to bring about the same results? -- Independence of Azania, that is true. When did you first realise that this rally might degenerate into a confrontation? HR. S0GG0T OBJECTS: M'lord, may I object, that is a double question, I think it should be split up. 20 MR. REES: I said when did you first realise that this rally may degenerate into a confrontation - perhaps if my learned friend would show where this is a double question, M'lord, I am unaware that it is. MR. S0GG0T: That question implies that he did realise that there was going to be a confrontation. MR. P~R~RS: I think, M'lord, he has already said so, he has already said so in his evidence-in-chief, and in his evidence in cross-examination. I never said that» Do you deny that you realised that this was going 30 to /...

39 SEDIBE to be a confrontation - that it might land into a confrontation?-- Well I have never thought it would come to a confrontation, I never thought of that of course. Did you at any stage think it might lead to a demonstration?-- Well, that is when Rathlagane brought the idea of placards, I said: guys, placards on the campus have been put in demonstrations and all that and people might just misinterpret the meaning of the rally, so we must put it definitely to them that we don't want a demonstration. How if you had a demonstration, wouldn't a demonstration lead to confrontation or might not a demonstration lead to a confrontation?-- Well a demonstration perhaps may lead to confrontation, but I remember too that we had a demonstration there but - PAUSE Didn't that demonstration lead to a confrontation? -- Well - PAUSE - Weren't a lot of students expelled?-- Well they were expelled. Well isn't that in fact the effect of the confrontation? -- Well - yes, it is. Exactly, so I say to you again, when did you first realise that this rally might lead to a confrontation?-- I never realised that it would lead to a confrontation. You never realised that. When did you first realise or consider that it might lead to a demonstration? -- Well, when Rathalagane brought up the idea of the placards, I associated the placards with what had happened /...

40 SEDIBB happened in 1972 in the demonstration. Well why did you think this would lead to a demonstration? -- Well because people would usually misinterpret what they want to do. Well what could they have misinterpreted with regard to this rally, you tell us? -- Well perhaps they might have thought we wanted to walk around on the campus demonstrating on behalf of Frelimo. Demonstrating what, tell us? -- Well demonstrating on Frelimo having attained independence. 10 Yes, well I want you to explain what you mean, how would it differ from a rally? -- Well it differs from a rally in that a rally is not a demonstration you just sit and you talk on the topic you have brought up. So if you introduce placards that might turn it into a demonstration? -- Well if you don t explain. what you are going to hold it may turn into a demonstration. Yes, well what would be the difference between a rally and a demonstration?-- As I say a demonstration you would be having placards, demonstrating for instance 20 against something or for something. like what, demonstrating for something, like what? -- Walking around demonstrating say "we want so and so returned to this campus", ire want..(mr. Rees intervenes) No, we are talking about the rally, you were # talking just about the rally, you thought the rally might degenerate into a demonstration, now I want to know, what was it that you were afraid of? No, I did not think it might degenerate, I thought they might misinterpret a rally with a demonstration, so that it would degenerate 30 into /...

41 SEDIBE into a..(mr. Rees intervenes) Well I want to know, I want to know what you thought what misinterpretation they might put on it, what would they do that you did not want to happen? -- Well for instance, Tour Lordship, when they had that demonstration 1972, I mean they had ideas you know which were carried for instance against the authorities on the campus for having expelled Tiro, that is the kind of thing which I had in mind. So you had in mind they might have ideas against the authorities, what ideas did they have against the authorities in connection with this rally?-- Against the authorities, there is nothing we have against the authorities in connection with the rally. Well then tell u s?-- There is nothing we had. You still haven t explained what was there in connection with the rally or in connection with the happenings which caused you to tell these people you didn t want a demonstration? -- As I say when I thought of placards I associated them with a demonstration like for instance we had in 1972 where, say, opinions were expressed against the.expulsion of Tiro. What were the opinions that you didn't want expressed here, or that you thought might be expressed that you warned against?-- Against the campus authorities. What were these opinions that you thought might be expressed now in this rally? -- Well as I say against the authorities, those..(mr. Rees intervenes) But you were holding a pro Frelimo rally and you

42 SEDIBE said you don t want a demonstration?-- That is correct. ITow I want to know from you, what was it you didn t want the people to write down?-- Demonstrations, that is what we didn t want them to do. Veil what could there be, what could the demonstration be, what form could it take, or what could happen or can t you tell us? -- Your Lordship, as I explained I thought they might misinterpret it to be a demonstration against somebody..(court intervenes) COURT: Yes, but Iír. Rees wants to know in what way 10 could they demonstrate if they are happy about the Frelimo success in Mozambique, in which way could they behave so that it is interpreted as a demonstration? -- Yes, Your Lordship, for instance I mean they might think when we had placards in 1972 those placards were saying something against the authorities..(court intervenes) -- Yes. Yes, but then the authorities had done something? But now the authorities had done nothing here to 20 let..(witness intervenes) -- That is correct. So how could it assume the form of a demonstration, this incident that you were celebrating?-- That was just my association of placards with a demonstration that I brought it up, that was my primary objection, or rather # bringing up of an idea against a demonstration, that people usually misinterpret placards, they take them to be a demonstration. ITow I thought no, we must clarify where we stand here. Well was the university authority the whipping boy, 30 if /...

43 - 6 Oil - SEDIBE if there is anything you want to celebrate you demonstrate against the university authorities? -- Ho, Your Lordship, there was not something like that* Well Mr. Rees wants to know what were you afraid of then? - Well just because, I mean, Your Lordship, you usually see people demonstrating, we read about say # university students demonstrating against the government, so those are the things I usually associate in connection with placards, that they may be turned into a demonstration. MR. REES:.Against the government?-- Well against the authorities, the government. COURT ADJOURNS COURT RESUMES: GILBERT KABORANE SEDIBE, STILL UNDER OATH: CROSS-EXAMINATION BY HR. REES CONTINUED:' Mr. Sedibe, on this day of the rally did you play a drum? -- No, I did not play a drum. Did you have a drum?-- That is I wanted to explain in connection with what Ledwaba has already said, Ledwaba says he saw me having a drum at the sports field, at the sports field I.had a gavel, a chairman s gavel, because I had it in the hall, so when I moved out I just had it because it could get lost, we had previously lost it, so I just had it with me. Then when we were negotiating with the police when they were leaving, then I called the attention of the students by beating on the drum to call them together. Where did you get the drum?-- Well some students had it, I don t know where really, you see on the previous weekend /...

44 SEDIBE weekend we had a drummer that had come on Turfloop, so that group forgot a drum there, that is how I got it. So you had a drum and you had the instrument with which to heat a drum?-- Ho. Called a gavel? -- Ho, a gavel is not to beat a drum, it is a chairman s gavel, I mean it is a small - well I would say, it is a sort of a - a gavel is for something on which to beat, but it is not meant for a drum. You beat the drum with your hands? Well I just beat it - PAUSE - So you don't know where the drum came from? -- Well I just saw it somebody had it there, and I asked for it. And I suppose you don't know -where the drum went to either? -- Well after that I gave it to the student who had given it to me. When exactly did you beat this drum, at what stage? -- It was when the police were leaving and I wanted to call the students together to tell them that they must know that the rally is over, the major wanted us not to continue the. rally because that was what he was concerned with. Why were you anxious to get legal opinions on that d a y?-- Well, Your Lordship, it was after we had 0 been told this by the Jean, so I just wanted to assure myself that it was correct. When you saw the police you thought they were likely to come and intervene in the rally?-- Well I saw them in the hall, that is where I saw them. Why /...

45 SEDIBE Why did you think it was necessary to tell the students after the police had gone that the rally was now over? -- Well that is what the major wanted us to tell the students. Why was it necessary at that stage, was it not clear that the rally was over already-- It was over but he wanted us as an assurance to tell the students that they should not continue the rally. It was quite clear from what the Deal said that the Rector was not in favour of this rally continuing wasn't it? -- No, no, no, he told us the Rector thought the rally was not banned according to the legal opinion he..(hr. Rees intervenes) I am suggesting to you that the message conveyed to you was that the Rector was not in favour of the rally leave aside legal opinions?-- No, we did not get that message. You were in fact holding this rally on the same day as SASO was holding their rallies?-- Well, that is correct. And the president of SASO was to be the main speaker was he not? ~ Not the main speaker, but one of the speakers. Who was to be the main speaker? -- tfell there was no main speaker, Your Lordship, we were all going to participate. Who were the main speakers? -- Well I believe the ones whom we had on the agenda they would perhaps be the main speakers, but there wasn't really a main speaker we didn't decide on that. The /...

46 is correct SEDIBE The president of the SRC was to speak? -- That The president of SASO, the president of SASO local committee was to speak? -- That is correct. So wasn t it clear to everybody that SASO was at the very least supporting your rally?-- Well I mean we invited them, if they wanted they could have said: we are not in a position to come. itow at 12 o'clock that day you already knew that the Rector was concerned about the paintings on the wall 10 was he not? -- That is correct. And you did nothing about i t?-- Ho, we were to report to them, that is what they wanted. You did nothing about it? -- Mr. Rees, when we reported to the disciplinary committee we told them that we will remove the paintings, they said: well if that is what you feel you can do it but..(mr. Rees intervenes) When did you do that..(witness intervenes)-- Thero are workmen that can do that. -- On Thursday. When did you report to the disciplinary committee? 20 But you did nothing about finding out who painted these slogans on the walls?-- Your Lordship, perhaps the..(mr. Rees intervenes) Just answer my question?-- We did something. # What did you do? -- We tried to elicit information from the students as to who..(mr. Rees intervenes) When did you try to elicit that information? -- The afternoon or rather the evening of the 25th. What exactly did you do? -- Well we sent 30 members /...

47 SEDIBB members of the SRC and members of the - two members of the disciplinary committee who were my friends, these law students 'who gave us the opinion, they were members of the disciplinary committee so I asked them to try to elicit information as to whether any student might have seen somebody painting on the wall. You knew that the Rector was very concerned and he wanted an explanation? -- Well that is what he said, he wanted an explanation from us. And about the placards?-- 1/ell he never mentioned the placards. Did you think that he would require any explanation about the nature of the placards that were exhibited? -- Well I wasn't aware, Mr. Rees, of any nature of the placards, I mean there were just placards put on the wall so I never read them so that they could come to my mind as a certain nature of placards. I put it to you that it was clear to anybody who cared to look that this rally took on the form of a demonstration?-- Well it is not like that, Mr. Rees. Do you think the rally was a success?-- Well, yes it was a success.. W h y?-- Because at least we had expressed our solidarity with Mozambique although it was stopped, but it was a success. Do you consider your rally to have been a Black victory? -- A Black victory? Y e s?-- ITo, we were celebrating for the independence of Mozambique, it could not have been a Black victory anyway. #

48 SEDIBE Did you consider any of the events that day to amount to a Black victory? -- No. The fact that the police were ordered off the campus? -- Well we didn't order them really. The fact that the police went off the campus? -- Well I wouldn't say it is a victory, I mean it was part I believe, Your lordship, of negotiations whenever they are there. Was the Rector called to order there that day? -- Well he came there to talk to us and the police, he was not - I mean we talked to him about the police on the campus. Was a victory scored over the Rector? No, no, there was no victory. Would it be correct to describe the events that day as a Black victory? -- No. Would you dispute with anybody who called it a Black victory? Would you say that was false?-- Well I don't believe anybody would call it a Black victory. If somebody did would you say that was a false description of the event? -- Well, yes. Thank you. On that particular day did you feel that there might be any further clashes between the students and the police?-- After the police had left? No, before the police left? -- No, I didn't think there would be any clash. Did you at any stage think there might be a clash between the police and the students?-- No, I did not. And when the police came onto the campus, did you believe they came there in the ezecution of their duties /...

49 SEDIBB duties? -- Well, so the major said that he was executing his..(mr. Rees intervenes) Ho, I want to know whether you believe that they came there to execute their duty or did you believe they came for some other purpose?-- Veil they came to execute their duties. Was their duty to ascertain, to stop any rallies in which SASO was involved, isn t that s o?-- In which SASO was involved? be like that. Or which were supported by SASO? -- Well it may Did you do anything to assist the police in the execution of their duties that d a y?-- Yes the vicepresident did that. What did he do? -- He told the police that this was not a SASO rally, it was an SRC thing, we had organised it on our own. But you realise that in fact you did not organise it on your own, did you? -- We did organise it on our own. When did you first have this idea? -- On the 15th, no on the 13th. And SASO decided to have nation-wide rallies on the 15th at their conference in Durban, not s o?-- That is correct. And you were informed thereof by the General, * Accused no.6? -- That is correct. And it was only thereafter that you took your formal decision? -- Yes, Your Lordship, we were to hold an SRC meeting on the 21st just to formalise it, but the meeting was never held. How /...

50 -.6C0.8 - SEDIBE How many SASO meetings did you attend that month? -- No, I remember this one of the 18th and 21st and 22nd. SASO meetings? -- I mean the formation school and that one which - PAUSE - You attended the formation school meeting? -- Yes. -You. attended the meeting where Accused No. 6 announced at the SASO local committee meeting?-- That is correct. That SASO wanted to hold rallies? -- That is correct. Not so? -- That is correct. And what other SASO meeting did you. attend? I think, no, there were no others. You. then went and announced, you first announced the holding of the rally at the SASO formation school didn t you? -- It was rather not a SASO - it was at a show, Ilr. Rees, it was not a meeting as such, it was a show, but it was arranged by the SASO local committee. All your most important activities concerning the arrangement of this rally took place at affairs where SASO was involved?-- No, that is not correct, Your Lordship, we wanted to take advantage of the fact that students were gathered together to announce it to them. 0 But it was a SASO meeting where you announced it? -- That is correct. Why did you attend this meeting on the 13th, the SASO meeting?-- Your Lordship, I have already said that we had been involved in the feeding scheme project of Hank o eng /...

51 SEDIBE Kankoeng, so really they felt that perhaps we were interested in SASO, so they had to invite us. Who invited y o u?-- The chairman, Ramaphosa. And the main business that was discussed there that day was the rally?-- Ho, it was just mentioned towards the end of the meeting, it was just mentioned there by Accused Ho.6. So you were aware of the fact that SASO wanted to assist to alter the existing system of government in this country?-- They want to improve the existing situation, that is our aspiration in SASO. They want to change the economic system?-- Well to improve the economic system. They want to change i t?-- ITo, I don t know really what I understand it as changing, but I understand it as improving the economic situation. I just want to find out this, you were chairman of this commission on Bantustans that is referred to in EXHIBIT SASO 0.1? -- That is correct. Did you know what that report was supposed to contain?-- We 11 it was to contain the ideas of the students. % Did you know what those ideas we r e?-- Ho, I didn t know, I mean you can t know what a person is thinking. # Then did you or did you not know what that report was supposed to contain?-- I didn t know, it was supposed to contain what the students felt, their opinions, their ideas. On that day did you know after you had been in that /...

52 - 6Q20 - SEDIBE that meeting what the students felt or didn't you? Well I knew, the idea was that they didn't feel that the Bantustans is a good system, that is what came clear out of that meeting. So you knew what the consensus of opinion of the students w a s?-- And the fact that they didn't like the Bantustans, that is correct, yes. And you have seen that report, is that report a fair reflection of what the students felt that day? Well I should imagine so, perhaps - I mean..(hr. Rees intervenes) But you have seen that report?-- Yes, I have seen it, I mean the secretary could have taken some other ideas when they were still talking. I want to know from you whether that report is a fair reflection of what occurred at that meeting?-- Ye in the fact that they reject the Bantustans, correct. ITo, as the report stands, does that give a fair reflection of what the ideas were expressed by the student on that d a y?-- Well I should imagine so. Have you any qualification?-- Well the only /S qualification as far as Kekane has already told the Court. No, I want to know what you are telling the Court?-- Well I cannot really remember, what I remember is that the students brought the idea that they feel the Bantustans are useless. And also brought the idea that when a freedom fighter comes he must be assisted? -- Well that is what Kekane says he understood the students to say, but I cannot remember if..(hr. Rees intervenes)

53 SEDIBE You were there, you were there? -- Yes, as I say it was already towards the end of the meeting, students were already saying: no, time is up, we must go for supper now. You were the chairman?-- That is correct. And you had access to that report, that report was in your possession, that whole of that evening? -- Well it was in the SRC office really, it was not in my..(mr. Rees intervenes) It was handed to y o u?-- That is correct. 10 Right, and you say you. went and put it in the SRC office? -- That is correct. But you. had to go and deliver that report the next morning, it was your duty?-- No, usually I say secretaries are the ones who report on what they have written. correct. But you were the chairman?-- Yes, that is It was your duty to go and see that what m s reported was correctly reported? -- That is correct. 20 I - yes. And did you take your duties seriously? -- Well And the next day you in fact went to report? -- That is correct. And you say you didn't pay attention to what # was being reported? No, I was called outside to come fl.nd arrange funds for the show which was performed the previous night. Why couldn't they wait until after you had delivered your report, how long would that have taken? Those 30 gentlemen /....

54 S3DIBE gentlemen of the drama were leaving the campus, they were in a hurry. Why couldn t the delivery of your report then wait?-- Well they called me, Mr. Rees, they were saying they were in a hurry so I had to go to them, I mean, Kekane was reading the report so I wasn t doing anything, I was just sitting. * Oh, you were not even paying attention to what the report w a s?-- I was listening like any other student in the hall. I When you partook in that formation school you knew what conscientisation was about?-- Yes. Does conscientisation mean indoctrination?-- ilo, it does not. Anyway it is clear that you did nothing to correct any wrong impressions that students might have had that day? -- Yes because I wanted to get ideas from them that was the primary importance of the commission. Right, well if there were any wrong ideas expressed by students you would have been aware of them?-- Well, I might have been aware of them. And what wrong ideas did they express? -- Well right now when I read the report here I found that they said people should be conscientised to house freedom fighters, but I know that is not the policy of SASO. If for instance it was a meeting where we had to clarify policy, I could have clarified the policy but now..(mr. Rees intervenes) Could you not have clarified that there that day if you had been aware of i t?-- Well I couldn t have,

55 SEDIBE Mr* Rees, because it was to get ideas from the students what they feel. Wouldn t you have clarified the matter there that day and told them: this is not what SASO wants? -- ITo, I wanted to get ideas from them. You wanted to get whatever the ideas?-- Well, the ideas that they put forward there. But that idea was put forward as part of your ideas?-- My writing? Your ideas? It wasn't just students at random, you were part of that commission, that report was going in as part of your ideas, wasn't i t? -- Well no, not my ideas, because I was there just for procedure sake because..(mr. Rees intervenes) You were chairman?-- That is correct, it is simply to see that there is procedure in the commission. And you were the man if you were to see that there was order and as you say procedure in the commission, you would have to take cognisance of what was being said? -- Yes, well I mean when they talk I am there always. And you say you didn't listen?-- Well I listened. And did you -.then you must have been aware of these recommendations? -- The recommendations, Your Lordship, were made towards the end, the students were already you know standing up saying: we are going for supper now. You say the purpose of this commission was to make recommendations?-- ITot to make - the purpose was not to make recommendations but it was to get ideas. And to make recommendations?-- Well, you could get /...

56 SEDIBB get ideas as to what kind of recommendations you want to make. ITow in fact the evidence shows, you. will agree with me, that while this formation school was in progress the preparations were made for the rally?-- ITo, that is not correct, because we only formalised the rally on the Sunday, the evening of the Sunday. What date was that?-- 22nd. On what date did you finish the rally?-- When did we finish - PAUSE - 10 «The rally - I am sorry, the formation school? -- Well it was finished on the 22nd. On the 22nd?-- That is correct. You were busy discussing and making your arrangements in connection with the rally, you started that already on the 13th didn t y o u?-- Yes we had to hold a SRC meeting, so the Executive of the SRC had to take such action, because they have got the right to do that. So your preprations for this rally started while the formation school was in progress?-- 1/e started with 20 the rally on the 13th when this was brought up. So the two things were overlapping?-- Well - that is correct, they mi^it have overlapped. And I put it to you that the ideas that were expressed at this formation school were carried over to 4 the rally?-- Well now, I wouldn t say that, Mr. Rees. And you knew that the ideas which were contained - which were expressed at the formation school would in fact be the same ideas which would be carried over to the rally? -- No, I wasn t aware of that. 30 How /...

57 SEDIBE How, could you tell the Court whether or not you knew what the main ideas were that were ventilated at this formation school of which you were chairman? -- Your Lordship, what I remember very well is that the students were saying the Bantustan concept is a fraud, it cannot work, but what we have got to do is to try to show that we are not against the Bantustan leaders per se, we are against what they are doing, the politics, that is what came clear. Can you suggest any reason why - I am sorry, I rephrase that. Are you suggesting that this report that we have in SASO 0.1 is not a true reflection of what happened at that meeting?-- Well it may be a true reflection, because basically it rejects Bantustans. And let us just get this clear, was the recommendation meant or made seriously, or were they just made in the form of a lot of hot air? -- Well usually I mean when students discuss things you find that they just talk, you know, they just talk. They may be serious or they may not be serious. Were these recommendations made in serious vein or n o t?-- I mean we had to - I myself for instance if I were to make recommendations I would be very serious, but I don t know really whether the students felt they were serious or not. e But you were the chairman, Mr. Sedibe? That is correct, I myself I felt the commission was very important It was a serious matter? -- Yes. How if I were to suggest that SASO in fact wanted /...

58 SEDIBE wanted to know what the students' ideas were, so that they could base their future policy thereon, what would you say to that? -- Well, perhaps it may be like that but SASO has got a policy, I don't believe they would like ideas as to policy, I don't know, perhaps they would like ideas as to - PAUSE - I will put the question to you again, if I should suggest that SASO wanted to know what the students* ideas were so that they could base future policy on that? -- Well you may be correct. Did it appear to you that SASO could learn anything from the Frelimo struggle?-- Well, I don*t think there is much to learn, except perhaps dedication, but perhaps Frelimo were dedicated to their struggle. Did you think that SASO'S success could inspire hope for success for your own success in the freedom struggle? -- I beg your pardon? I am sorry, that Frelimo's success could inspire hope for the success of your own struggle? -- Well as far as encouraging us that, you know, you can still work on your policies and you can achieve your liberation, yes, as an inspiration. Would you say the example of Frelimo could act as an inspiration? -- Well their attaining liberation, their dedication to liberation, that is correct. % Would it be correct to say that on the - that you went to the hall where SASO was busy immediately after you had your SRC meeting in connection with the rally? -- Well, Your Lordship, I have already said we wanted to take advantage of the fact that students were gathered together /...

59 SEDIBE together to announce the rally. You went with Ledwaba, and Rathlagane?-- And Phaladi. And did you tell the students that they are aware that on the 25th Frelimo is taking over in Mozambique, and we have decided to hold a rally on that day to celebrate with Frelimo - would that be more or less what you announced? -- Well it may be more or less so. Did you say more or less to the students: you, can come to the SRC office to get paper for making of placards to be used on that d a y?-- Yes, they were to get - I told them to come and get blank placards from the SHC office. Did you tell them you can write on the placards what you write?-- ITo, I told them that the SRC would give an example of the kind of placards that we want, ard the SRC had a "Viva Frelimo" placard on the door. How if you wanted them to write "Viva Frelimo" why didn t you write it yourselves? -- Write for 1500 people, Mr. Rees, it would take quite a long time, I mean we were busy we were also students on the campus who attend classes, so really - PAUSE - Why was it just to be one lot of words "Viva Frelimo", is that all you wanted?-- Yes, I mean they were to write "Viva Frelimo" on their placards, that is all. Is that all they had to write?-- Yes, well something in connection with "Viva Frelimo" "long live Frelimo in your government. What J...

60 SEDIBE What else could they write? -- Well I mean that is what we wanted. Were you surprised to find placards and writing s of the nature we have before Court?-- That is correct. Were you very surprised? -- That is correct. Was that not what you intended?-- ITo, that is not what I intended. Why didn't you intend something like that? -- This is what I have already said, Your Lordship, we didn't want people to express certain feelings against any other person. What feelings are here that were expressed that you feel were wrong? -- I mean for instance they are expressed against the government, that is what the general feeling of the placards is. You did tell them they could write what they liked, that is in fact what you expected to happen not s o?-- ITo, in the first place I did not say that. But if you had said that? I could have expected them to write in connection with what we wanted a viva Frelimo rally. Did you not th,ink the students would write anything like this? - Well as I say, Your Lordship, I thought when Rathlagane brought the idea of placards I thought of a demonstration, that is why I said we should make it clear that we don't want a demonstration. But aren't students prone to writing what they like? -- Well they are prone to that, that is why we had to warn them. You knew that? --- Yes, we had to warn them. You /...

61 SEDIBB You had to warn th e m?-- Correct. Because they were likely to write what they thought? -- If they are not told, yes. But you had an opportunity of finding out how they thought at that formation school?-- I had? You had an opportunity of finding out how the students thought at that formation school just a few days before?-- Well the formation school was attended by very few people, Your Lordship, about 200, that is not the majority of the students. 10 Yes, but you could have formed an idea then of how the students felt? -- No, I did not. You did not? -- No. You had the opportunity though?-- Well I mean I didn't say something like that. Did you tell them they could put up the placards wherever they liked?-- No, I didn t say that. Did you never tell them what you meant by not wanting a demonstration?-- No, I mean they know what a demonstration is, I mean on campus, usually people find 20 we must demonstrate, we must do what - usually said no, demonstrations is out.of order. How do the students know what a demonstration is? -- They usually express such feelings that we must d emonstrate against a certain thing, a demonstration is # known on campus by students. Almost every student knows what a demonstration is. I suggest you said you didn t want a demonstration because you wanted to put the idea into their heads? That is all you need say to a student?-- That they should 30 demonstrate? v, Yes /...

62 S RDTR'R Y e s?-- No, Mr. Rees, no, it is not like that. It happened to end like that didn't it? -- I mean it didn't, I mean, well, really, I cannot understand you, Mr. Rees. Didn't it turn out to be a demonstration?-- No, the rally was never a demonstration. Never?-- Never. Despite these placards we have got here? -- Well they were not as I put it part of the rally. Just explain that to His Lordship please?-- I 10 mean these placards were not at the rally they were - I didn't see them being carried at the rally, that is what I am saying. But the evidence was that they were there?-- Well it may be like that but I never saw them. Oh, now, if His Lordship accepts that these placards in fact formed part of the rally would you then say the rally turned into a demonstration?-- Well, I wouldn't say so because they were never part of the rally, it would be a wrong conclusion I believe. 20 Oh, but if they had been part of the rally, would that then make the rally a demonstration?-- Well, in that sense, yes. Did you or your SRC try to assist the police in any way on that day? -- Yes we did. How did you try to assist them?-- Well Kangwate as I have already said talked with the major. Yes? -- Myself-told the students to disperse from the sports field, that is why I drove the women students towards the hostel. 30 I /...

63 SEDIBE I suggest to you that you tried to separate the women so that you could clear the area for the men to attack the police..(laughter) -- I reject that, Your Lordship. I see your friend Mr. Baths Cooper, Accused ITo.l, finds great amusement from this question? -- Of course, Mr. Rees, it is amusing, how can you make such a suggestion, I mean it is very untenable. You also had the drum, you were in charge of proceedings there weren t y o u?-- I had the? You were in charge of proceedings that day? That is correct. And you had the drum? -- Ho, I was only given the drum when we were at the road. Yes, and you were the man who told the police to leave the campus?-- Yes we talked with them, with members of BASA and the Rector. But what you did do immediately afterwards was to try to find out if the students had been passing Information to the police?-- No, I didn't do that. You did, you told the Court you d i d?-- No, I did not. Did you not gó and investigate this woman 'whom you thought had been talcing photographs?-- Yes, I was asked, Mr. Rees, I didn't do it on my own, I was asked. But you did it? - Yes, that is correct. That is what I am interested in. Who asked you? -- It is not that the students wanted to pass information to the police, the students were only concerned that they were saying she had been taking photos of the students and /...

64 SEDIBE and therefore they felt that she was a spy according to them, an informer, A spy or an informer? -- That is correct. For whom? -- Well for the authorities. And the authorities would include the police? -- Well they did include them, but I don t know whether the police are part of the authorities, I don t know. What were you afraid of, what information could she pass o n?-- Well I wasn t afraid of anything myself, 10 Was there anybody who had any reason to be afraid?-- Well the accusers said they felt that she was an informer, so we had to..(mr. Rees intervenes) What was there that you were afraid she would inform, what could she inform?-- Well I was not afraid of anything myself. Well what could she inform? -- Well I don't know really, but those were the fears, I mean we had to investigate to see whether their fears were..(mr. Rees intervenes) 20 But she was informing something, you were going to find out what she was.likely to inform, here she was taking photographs?-- That is correct. Right, well, how could she inform anything if there was not something underhand?-- Well I believe perhaps, Your Lordship, seeing her tailing photos during the rally when the police were telling us to disperse and trying to hide it, we thought perhaps she might be an informer, that is what they were concerned with. Well what were they afraid of, what could her 50 photographs /,,,

65 - 60^3 - SEDIBE photographs show? -- Well they probably thought that she wanted to show the position of members of the SRC, I don't know. V/hy, were you afraid of your position?-- Ho, I was not afraid of anything. V/hy should the fact that she may have wanted to show the position of SRC affect y o u?-- Well that is what they were saying, they were s ^ing that - her friend, her friend was the person who was very concerned, this is my friend, I have been talking to her many things, 10 we are politicians we tall: politics, we talk politics rather every day now that she is talcing photos I think that she also wants to inform on me. But you were concerned that she might have taken photos to show the position of SRC? -- Ho, that is what they said, the students. Yes, you were afraid that there was an informer? -- Ho, I wasn't afraid of that, I mean any person can inform on me anything he likes, I haven't done anything wrong so why should I fear anything. 20 Well, will you tell the Court, this is why I am interested why you immediately go and investigate this matter? -- Well, Your Lordship, firstly they were accusing her as I have explained and they were threatening a to best her up, that is why I mean we had to see whether their accusations were well founded or not. 0 COURT: You were not so prompt when the Rector complained about the paintings on the wall, and about the damage to the property on the campus? -- We were concerned, Your Lordship, otherwise we couldn't have..(court intervenes) po i/hat /...

66 SEDIBE What could she have told the police that the police couldn t see for themselves on the campus that day?-- Excuse me? V/hat could she have told the police that the police couldn't see for themselves on the campus that d a y?-- That is something, Your Lordship, which I also cannot understand, hut I mean when they were threatening to heat her up, perhaps they thought there was something behind that, that is why we had to investigate it. And in fact if she took photographs of you it would have assisted you because here you come with the story that you couldn't go to the police because you were amongst students, well what better evidence could you have than a photograph showing you amongst students preventing you from going to the police?-- That is why I said the SRC said go and see to it whether you can find anything which suggests that she is an informer in her room..(court intervenes) 1/hat I cannot understand is that you are so prompt with that type of complaint which on your own showing is a worthless complaint in the circumstances, and you do nothing when the Rector speaks to you about the state of the campus?-- No, we did something about that. Yes, well I am not so sure that you did something? -- Well we did investigate, Your Lordship, the point is when you investigate things on the campus usually students I mean they are not willing to come forward and say: I did this, I did this, so the only thing is to try to go in a devious way to try to gather information, but unfortunately /...

67 SEDIBE unfortunately we could not, the students were moving to their homes* HR. REES: Are you used to going in devious ways? -- ITo, I am not used to that. The police had arrested some students that day? -- Yes, that is correct. So it was clear to you that they intended to take them to the police station?-- 1/ell, I mean if you arrest a person you take them to the police station. What then made the police release these students? - Well, as I have already said, Your Lordship,.. IITAUDIBLE.. who was bitten by a dog.. (Ilr. Rees intervenes) Just answer my question, what made the police release those students? -- Well we asked them to release them, they told us that they had taken their names everything, so we felt that if they have taken their names, release them. In fact Lt. Holoto of the I-Iankoeng police station was there, Your Lordship, and he said: as long as you have got their names, it is okay, they are still on the campus, it doesn t matter. You went to the police and said they must release these students?-- We asked them. Otherwise, what would happen?-- ITo, we asked them. And if they said: no, we are talcing them to the police station, what would happen then?-- ITo, they could have taken them. 1/hat would have happened then, what did you tell the police?-- We didn t tell them anything. They /...

68 SEDIBE They don't just release a person whom they have arrested?-- ITo, they did release them, as I put it, Lt. I-ioloto said as long as the names of the students have been taken, to him he was satisfied because he is the man in charge of the police station at Mankoeng. Was Lt. Holoto in charge there or was I-Iajor Erasmus in charge?-- He was there with Major Erasmus, he talked to him. Who was in charge?-- Major Erasmus was in charge. ITow, what did you say to Major Erasmus to make him release these prisoners?-- Ho, \re just - after we had talked with the major that since the rally was over they can leave the campus..(mr. Rees intervenes) Did you tell the major what the attitude of the students would be if he did not release these prisoners? -- Ho, the students were shouting, I mean, Your Lordship, they were just around and shouting, shouting. What were they shouting?-- General things. Like what: "the police are jolly good fellows"? -- Release the students" and so on, they felt that in fact there was nothing that serves the purpose of keeping the students since they have got their names so they released them. So you say the students shouted "release the prisoners"? -- They were concerned with the student who was bitten by a dog, you see. But that man had been taken off?-- No, there were /...

69 SEDIBE were two bitten by dogs, Mr. Rees, another one was locked in the van, and the other one had already been taken to hospital. And you wanted them re.leased?-- That is correct. And all the students wanted them released? -- Well, yes. In fact you were trying to interfere with the police in trying to take them to the police station? -- Ho, we never interfered. 10 You wanted t o?-- No. You didn't want the police to take them away there?-- If they wanted to take them they might have taken them but they were very willing to release them. Yes, why then if they were very willing, can you suggest why they didn't release them on their own, why was it necessary for you to intervene? -- Well we felt those students who had been bitten, the student who was bitten by a dog, and the other one had been assaulted, they had to be taken care of, they had to be taken to 20 hospital. Didn't the police take them to hospital? -- Well no, they had not taken them to hospital. Well didn't you suggest to the police that they take them to hospital?-- Well, Your Lordship, I mean whenever something is wrong with a student they take him to the hospital. Did you take those people to hospital then?-- Yes he was taken. Did you take h i m?-- I arranged - in fact I sent 30 I-Iativani /...

70 SEDIBE -fsa,n Mativani, a member of the SRC to go and ask for a car of the administration to take that student to hospital. When you heard that the White lecturer had been assaulted, did you do anything to render assistance to him? -- No, they told us that the White lecturers had been taken care of. Did you do anything to find out what the facts were?-- Yes I did. And what did you find out? -- No, the students, Your lordship, as I have already said, also in 3.0 connection with that, they were very unwilling to say; I saw so and so. So the best thing was really to try to let the matter cool down, and then they will start talking about it and then we can gather information. In fact you didn t gather any information? -- We tried to elicit information. I suggest to you that those lecturers would never have been assaulted that day if you had not held your rally? - Well I don t know about that Mr. Rees. Has it ever happened before that lecturers were 20 assaulted there? -- Well I cannot remember an incident where a lecturer was assaulted. Do you know of anyone, or don t you remember? -- I don t know. And you don t know of any assault subsequently * on any lecturer, White lecturer?-- No, I was subsequently arrested so I don t know what is happening on the campus. Oh, these placards and all these events must have all contributed to inflame the feelings of the students? 30 W e 11 J...

71 SEDIBE -- Well, I don't know about that, Mr. Rees, I don't know how their feelings were, I mean they were generally like any other day on the campus, so I wouldn't go with that suggestion. It was not like any other d a y?-- It was, I mean students were generally like any other day, there wasn't something showing that they were perhaps incited or something. But what about these placards?-- Well I mean they were there. What about their refusal to disperse? -- Well the students never refused to disperse. They didn't disperse? -- They dispersed. After the police had baton-charged them? -- Ho, even before that, Mr. Rees, you see I know very well when I went to the sports field they started moving, when I told them to disperse they dispersed on their own. But you then said you didn't pay attention to what was happening, you were dispersing the women? -- I was talking to the women to go to their hostels, I mean generally some of them would be saying the rally is over so why should we leave the sports grounds, that is what they were saying, so I had to talk to them: no, the rally is over, let us leave. Where did you think these banners were going to be carried?-- Well the banners were to be carried in the hall most probably, that is what it was meant for. But they were not carried in the hall according to you? -- Well I never saw them, I believe they just kept them. What /...

72 What kind of a rally did you have in the hall if you haven t even got the banners and placards displayed?-- Enquire from whom, Mr. Rees, from the students? Yes?-- I mean I...INAUDIBLE., the placards were a very minor point in the rally, Mr. Rees, so there was no need for me to ask where- are the placards and all that. Was there anything said that could possibly be interpreted that day as trying to force the police to 10 release the prisoners? -- No, there was not. Was there anything that was said or shouted that day by you or the students or anybody else that could be interpreted by the police as trying to force them to leave the campus?-- No, there was not. Nothing said? -- No, nothing. Didn't they shout "release the prisoners"? -- Well they shouted, yes SEDIBE This was immediately after there had been a baton charge and stones thrown at the police -- Yes. 20 They then shouted "release the prisoners, release the prisoners"? -- That is correct. And you say in that atmosphere the police would not regard this as a threat to them? -- Well it was not threatening, I mean I was there, I know the situation. * What was the mood of the students after this baton charge? -- Well, they were generally excited after, you know, they felt that it was a bad thing that they had been assaulted and all that. Well, were any of them aggressive that day? 50 No /...

73 SEDIBE -- No, they were not aggressive. Did they feel something must be done to these policemen?-- No, they just wanted them to leave the campus, that is what I know. Wasn't anything said what they should do to the police? -- No, nothing. Now what was the attitude of the students towards the fact that other students had been arrested by the police? - We11 I mean they were displeased with it, Your Lordship, when a person is arrested I mean - PAUSE How did they show their displeasure?-- Well they just shouted "release them, release them", that is what they said. What did you say to Major Erasmus, what would happen if they were not released? -- Me? You? I did not say anything. What did you think would happen if they were not released?-- No, nothing could happen, I mean they were arrested. You were a dissatisfied group of students, about how many students did you have? -- Arrested? How many students were there? -- Well there were many, I cannot remember specifically, but the majority of them were there in this group. The majority, that would be more than a thousand or less than a thousand? -- Well it could have been 900 somewhere around there. And they were strongly displeased at the fact that the police Lad bat on-charged them, and they were displeased at the fact that some of their students were prisoners /...

74 SEDIBE prisoners, didn t you think that something might happen if the police tried to take these prisoners away? -- Well I never thought of that, myself I didn t think of that. Wasn t "the situation somewhat tense there?-- No, I wouldn t say it was tense. Was it very relaxed, the discussions you had with the police? -- Well the discussions, yes, they were very relaxed, we were talking there. Why then was it necessary for the Rector to appeal to the students to go back to their hostels? -- He did not appeal to them, he jus4* - I mean through us, he told us this is what the major wants, that we should not continue with the rally, and that is what I told the students. And did the Rector not appeal to you and to the students to go back to your hostels? -- He appealed to me, yes. He appealed to you and you appealed to the students? -- That is correct, yes. Why was that necessary?-- Well he was saying that the major was saying that the students would go back to the rally, that is what he appealed to us that we should not go back to the hall again. Or parade up and down on the soccer field? -- No, in the afternoon people play soccer on the sports field, Mr. Rees. They were not playing soccer?-- I mean you can t stop for instance students who want to go and play soccer. There was no intention to play soccer that day

75 SEDIBE you know that, why introduce soccer now? -- Well you say they didn't want to see any person on the soccer field, I say you can't stop them if they want to go and play soccer they have got to go and play. There was no question of going to play soccer that afternoon was there?-- Well - PAUSE - They couldn't play soccer with you and your friends marching up and down there, could they? -- No, I mean after the police were leaving, you say that the Rector didn't want students to go to the sports field, I say no, that was not his decision, he didn't want them to go back to the hall. He didn't want them to stay in a group wherever they were, didn't he appeal to them to go back to their hostels? -- Well I mean the road is that is where the hostel starts, immediately there at the road there is a hostel, that is where the hostel starts. Did he not appeal to them to go back to their hostels? -- That they should stay at their hostels yes and not go back to the hall. During the proceedings in the hall, did the students frequently shout "power", the slogan that you are also so fond of shouting? -- Well they shouted but it was not very regular, they might have shouted. Did they shout "viva Frelimo"? -- Yes. Did they shout "down with Vorster"? -- No, I can't remember that. Didn't they shout things like th a t?-- No, I c an t /...

76 SEDIBE can t remember that. Didn't they shout "down with the pigs, the Whites"? -- Ho, I cannot remember that. Did the students shout "viva Frelimo" and hold up their placards? -- Ho, I cannot remember that. I suggest these placards before the Court show that the holding of the rally had invoked a strong emotional reaction among the students, what do you say to that?-- Ho, I wouldn t say that, because things were very normal on the campus, Your Lordship, so I can t go with that suggestion. I would like to suggest that some of these placards express a strong support for Frelimo, and a rejection for the Republic and the system in the Republic? -- We11 if we want to gather some conclusion from the placards we have, the only placards we have in the Court, well I will agree with you. You will agree with me? -- Yes. Did the placards show that the students regarded Frelimo as an example that was worthy of being followed? -- Ho, as an inspiration. As an inspiration -- Yes. To what? -- And dedication to our struggle. Yes, they regarded the revolution in Africa as an ongoing process? -- Well I can t remember whether that was expressed. They regarded the overthrow of the Vorster regime as the next step in the liberation of Africa?-- Well some students might have had such ideas. They revealed a strong desire to revolt and to expel /...

77 SEDIBE expel the Whites from the country, with the assistance of Frelimo? -- Well some might have had such ideas. Those were the sentiments that were revealed "that day?-- No, I wouldn't say that. You wouldn't agree?-- No. I put it to you again that they revealed a desire to revolt and to expel the Whites from the country with the assistance of Frelimo? -- Well I wouldn't go with that suggestion. Right, well let us have a look at some of these documents. Have a look at EXHIBIT RALLY B.10, right, have you got it? -- I have got it. That says: "White man it is time to proceed to India as you promised, get going"? -- That is correct. That is a clear indication that this man wants the White man out of the country?-- Yes, this man yes, that is correct. And the next RALLY B.13, it says "Frelimo made them run, Frelisa will drown them, cowards run" - referring to the Whites there isn't it? -- Well, in the first place I don't know who Frelisa is. don't know it. Can't you ever} guess?-- I can't guess because I Frelimo, what does that mean, it means free Mozambique, not so? -- No. # And the other one is free South Africa isn't it? -- No, it does not mean that. 1/hat does it mean then if it does not mean that? -- Frelimo means front for the liberation of Mozambique. Yes, and the other one would be front for the liberation /...

78 SEDIBE liberation of South Africa?-- In the first place, Mr. Rees, you see really Frelimo I believe the fre", I don't know how it stands in Portuguese, but I would not feel that - PAUSE Well anyway you can interpret the top piece, Frelimo but you cannot interpret Frelisa?-- ITo, because I don t know anything about it. Who is the person referring to here, who is he going to drown, who is he going to make run? -- Well really I don t know, but perhaps he might be referring 10 to Whites, I don't know, perhaps. Could he be referring to anybody else than the Whites?-- And the Blacks of South Africa, that is correct, yes. Who are the people to be drowned and chased away? -- Well it may be referring to any person, I mean Whites, perhaps even Blacks. Yes, the Blacks whom you refer to as ITon-Whites who co-operate with the government?-- Well perhaps he might be referring also to them, I don t know. 20 RALLY B.21, you see I said these placards reveal a desire to revolt or.expel the Whites from the country with the assistance of Frelimo, now RALLY B.21 says: "Samora Kachel is now coming and Vorster must go? -- Yes. So, what is that message there?-- Well, this Mr. Rees may mean anything, it may mean Mr. Vorster must go from the - I mean he must stop running the government on his own and share it with the Black people, it may mean that also, it may mean any other thing. And "Samora I-Iachel is coming", what does that 30 mean /...

79 ! I SEDIBE mean?-- Well, Samora Hachel was coming to Mozambique. Ho, but you. don't say it, "he is coming and Vorster mast go"?-- Well - PAUSE - If Samora Hachel comes and he takes over power here? -- Well in the first place Samora Hachel would not come here to take power, I mean it is quite, you can't interpret it in that way.' Why then do you say "Samora Hachel is now coming" -- That is the writer, Mr. Rees, I don't know really what he had in his mind. 10 These other placards where you showed and you admitted just now that that was part, that placard that you referred to with the hand grasping the whole of Africa, it was all part and parcel of the freedom struggle for Africa?-- Well he might have tried to represent that. i j! Yes, and this man is also representing that the Whites must go? -- Well he is referring to Vorster here I don't know whether he is referring to Whites. And liith the aid of Ilachel, Samora Machel? ; -- Well in the first place Samore Machel I believe will 20 i never do such a thing.! Well you were «still trying here to show the people! how successful Samora Hachel's methods would be, not so? -- Those are the ideas of certain students, Mr. Rees. ji j EXHIBIT RALLY B.24 and 25, now this photograph j shows Azania and it shows Vorster leaving to India, and \ it says: "Black man your land is at stake, wake up, i I come Frelisa, come SASO, Samora Machel has shown you dialogue cannot solve your problem" -- That is correct. Then there is a gun: "This my son I give you, I r 30 Í i don t /... I

80 SEDIBE don t be a coward. Doubly dying shalt thou go to a vile death unsung unhonoured and wept", isn t this an encouragement to these people to follow violent methods, not so? -- Well he may be perhaps trying to do that, I don t know. Can you suggest any other thing that this man is trying to convey?-- Ho, I say maybe your suggestion may be correct. Can you suggest anything else, or do you agree with my suggestion? -- Well, I cannot suggest anything. 10 B.25 says also Frelimo coming here into the Republic doesn t it? -- Yes. And it shows irresponsible Dutch boys home to Holland and flight to India, doesn't it? -- Yes, that is correct. So that is a clear indication to anybody who wants to look that they are looking for support from Frelimo?-- Well, I mean, you may look for support from Frelimo but that doesn't mean that you want to take their methods. 20 Then have a look at RALLY B.29, this was one that was exhibited in,the hall, it says "Revolution Ilachel will help, away with Vorster, we are not afraid, Black Power"? -- Well I didn t see it, you say it was displayed in the hall, I did not see it. 0 But the message it conveys is very clear is it n o t?-- The message that they don't want for instance what Vorster is doing, that is correct, it may be like that. It says that Samora Kachel will help them in ^ the /...

81 SEDIBE the revolution? - Well I don t know 'whether he says Samora will help him in the revolution. What does he say "revolution, Samora Machel 0 will help, what does that mean? -- Well, it may mean that you want him to help in the revolution, but it does not necessarily mean that Samora will help in the revolution. It does not mean that Samora I-Iachel is necessarily going to help you, but this is what you are preaching to the students? -- Well this is what the student said not what somebody is preaching to him. This is what they are announcing at a rally organised by you? -- Pardon? This is what the students are announcing at a rally organised by y o u?-- Well if they say that, in the first place I didn t see this, Your Lordship, at the rally. This is what they wrote on the paper which you made available to them? -- Well that is another thing, we never told them to write such things. Well this is what they in fact wrote on the paper you made available to,them?-- Well they might have, but we made it clear to them that we don t want any demonstration, it was very clear that. at And I suggest to you also that/this rally violent revolution was encouraged, and resistance to the State was encouraged? -- Well I mean this is what the individuals expressed on these placards, but that was never shorn at the rally, when we held the rally there was nothing like that.

82 SEDIBE Do you. agree with me that these placards were in fact at the rally and encouraged violent revolution? -- Well, Your Lordship, I never saw placards at the rally. I am not interested in whether you say you saw them or not, you have seen them here in Court? -- Yes. Do you agree that there are placards that encourage violent revolution? -- Well the placards that are here in Court perhaps they do encourage, some of them. They encourage violent revolution? -- Yes. How you say you had taken no steps at all to - before the police arrived on the scene to ascertain what the students had written on these placards? -- Well Your Lordship, I mean we usually see placards on the walls..(hr. Rees intervenes) I just want to know on that particular day whether or not you tried to find out what the students had in fact written? -- Well I didn't, of course yes. You did not do anything, right, but..(court intervenes) COURT: But if I remember your evidence correctly you say you did see placards, you saw other people read placards and you also read the placards?-- Yes, Your Lordship, but I mean it did not come to my mind that they were placards of a revolutionary nature as Mr. Rees puts it. MR. P'R'FjS: These banners and the placards were in fact there for everybody to see? -- Well any person could have read them. Did /...

83 SEDIBE Did you. at any stage form the conclusion that the students were now busy in fact with a demonstration? -- Ho. As you look back on the matter now do you say there was a demonstration or not? -- Well, but not at the rally, there was no demonstration at the rally. Where was the demonstration then? -- Well there was not a demonstration as far as I am aware. So there was no demonstration at all? -- Yes. Looking back on the facts now? -- Well if you want to associate these placards with a rally, if they were carried at the rally, I would say perhaps there was a demonstration. I have no further questions. E3-E:CAI-II1TAT I PIT BY HR. SOG-G-OT: Hr. Sedibe, just fix your mind on the situation when you were in the hall and Major Erasmus came to the hall, and you say the vicepresident spoke to him? -- That is correct. How, all I want you to try and do is explain to His Lordship what your thinking was at that moment as to why the police were there and what might happen? -- Well, Your Lordship, I believe my thinking at that stage was that perhaps they had got information that there was a rally at Turfloop and it might have been a SASO or BPO rally, now they had come to stop it. That was the general information - no, idea that I had in my mind, that they might have thought that the rally was a SASO/BPC one, therefore they had to come to stop it because of the banning on such rallies. Then you saw Kangwate talking to h i m?-- Yes. How /...

84 SEDIBE Now what did you think in your own mind as to what was going to happen next?-- Well I thought Mangwate would explain to them that this is an SRC matter it is not involved with SASO and the police would accept our explanation. What year student was Mangwate, what sort of a person was he? -- He was quite a - what I may call an understanding kind of chap, a person who would like always to try to show people that things are like this and like this. "What year student was h e? -- He was doing B.Com. What year?-- Third year I think, third year. Had he served previously on the SRC do you know? -- He had not served on any previous SRC. Assuming for a m o ment that you had wanted to get to the policeman what would you have had to do in order to get there? -- I believe if the vice-president could have come to where I stood and said: go and talk to the major whilst in the meantime I am staying here with the students so that there should not be confusion, students just following you when you leave this place, he could have come to *me and then remained there so that he could keep the students sitting there, and then I go to talk to the major. I-Í/ question is if you in fact wanted to intervene when you saw Mangwate talking to the police, if you in fact wanted to intervene, what physically would you have had to do in order to get to that point? -- Well the students, I had to ask them perhaps to remove the seats so that I can pass, you see, it was blocked, I could /...

85 SEDIBE could not get to the door, there was no passage which I could take to the major.'. CQUBT: But why couldn t you ask them that? -- Your Lordship the vice-president is in a position just like the president, as long as I mean he does things as the SRC or students should do it, there is no reason why the president should go when he can do it, I mean if I was free I could have gone to talk to him, but since I was in a position where I could not reach the major and the vice-president was there, the Constitution r, 10 provides that he can talk on behalf of the vice-president and all that so he was just enough as myself, (sic) HR. SOGGOT: He can talk on behalf of who m?-- Of the vice - of the president rather. COURT: I,hat I don't understand is that you say that he could come to where you are and then he could remain with the students? -- That is correct. Why were you afraid to leave the students? -- Well usually in a hall, Your Lordship, when you have got a meeting, I mean you cannot just leave people there without 20 anybody if you are conducting a meeting, you just can't leave that meeting without anybody conducting it. HR. SOGGOT: But can't you just say to the students: look chaps, keep quiet a moment, I want to go and talk to the police? -- No, I think that would be expecting * too much of students, they would just generally leave the hall, I mean they could start shouting. COURT: Well you don t have to leave the hall, you could see the major and the vice-president in the hall, you said you saw them in the door?-- Yes, they were far from me. Yes /...

86 SEDIBE Yes, bu.t they were in the hall? Yes, but about 20 to 25 yards from where I was. So I couldn't just shout to the major: this is a SASO rally it is not a BPC - the vice-president was there to talk to him on such matters. HR. SOCrG-OT: At that stage you saw Major Erasmus, did you see any other police and if so how many? -- Well I didn't notice them, perhaps they were standing outside but I didn't notice them. What did you expect would happen if the policeman did not accept Mangwate's assurances that it was an SRC affair?-- Well they would ask us to leave the hall, to disperse. Then if I may direct your mind to the banners - I am sorry the posters, I think you have told His Lordship in evidence and evidence in cross-examination that you saw a certain number, where were the - can you give evidence as to where - I am not asking about the contents now - but as to where on tne campus all the banners - posters had been put up? -- Well, Your Lordship they were put up..(hr. Soggot intervenes) I do not want you to give evidence on hearsay on any report you got, what you yourself actually saw with your eyes although you may not have read it? -- They were put on the walls right through the campus, from where for instance I attend lectures, K block, D block, most of the blocks had such placards. And in order to read it would you have had to go right round the campus?-- Well definitely you had to go right through the campus. Did /...

87 SEDIBE Did you do that? -- Well I did not. Those that you. did read, where were they? Well they were near the K block, that is not very far from the law department block, and the others were on the education block, it is also not far from there. Is K block a lecture theatre? -- That is correct. And did you get any report that day relating to any of the posters before the Court, you say you did not see it, but did you get reports about it from anybody any direction?-- Ho, the reports that we got were only in connection with the paintings. How my learned friend asked you whether - he put to you that the rally led to the assault on the lecturers? -- That is correct. Can you assist us at all as to what you think caused the students to do it, or what you know caused them to do it? -- Well really I can't think as to what made them assault the lecturers. I have been trying to think about it but I can't just come to a conclusion a.s to why they were assaulted. What was the mood of the students after the trouble with the police, that is after the baton charge and the tear gas? Well it was just like normal, students went to their hostels to drink tea, it was in the afternoon. Yes but I am talking about the situation while the police were still there? -- Well - PAUSE - What would you say, if you can give evidence about this, as to what the students appeared to feel? -- Well perhaps /...

88 SEDIBE perhaps they were just a little bit excited that some students had been arrested. As far as the formation school is concerned, were any ideas expressed there which are reflected in the posters before this Court? -- Well, perhaps if I can have some words - PAUSE - Well, was any statement made about driving the Whites into the sea, if that was a desirable thing? -- I cannot remember such a statement having been made. Well had that been said in front of you what would your response have been? -- The placards? ITo, no, no, at the formation school, had someone made the sort of suggestion which you have in the placards now before His Lordship, what would your response have been? -- You mean in the commission? Yes? -- Well I believe really it is quite rather something which I dislike personally, but I don't believe I could have done anything, because what I say is that we wanted ideas from the students, to ventilate ideas from the students, but I don't see you know, student coming into a commission saying that we must drive Whites out of the country, this is just individuals who know they can say something without being traced, there are those kind of guys who say these things, but I can't see students saying in a commission that we must drive Whites out to the sea. ITow just one other point, you were cross-examined on what attempt you have made to get the other posters, can you tell the Court what instructions you gave your attorney and what you understand he has done? -- Your Lordship /... 0

89 SEDIBE Lordship, we told our attorney about these placards that were there, there were many placards on the campus, so if the prosecution felt that these placards were of a general nature of revolution, they could have brought all the placards to this Court. So we asked them to write to the Special Branch office in Pietersburg to ask for them, but so far as far as I am aware nothing has come, H'lord, I have no further questions. COURT ADJOURNS /714D.

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