11262 SR. CONGO of non-violence? As I said, it depends on the two 1 interpretations - it is capable of two interpretations. That is, if the speaker me

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1 11261 DR. CONCQ is now in England to be educated. To-day we must stand together. We must fight against the Western Areas removal once and for all. We must eradicate Fascism in South Africa." Then the next speaker was Yundla y immediately after that, who said "Nothing will stop our march to freedom and have a say in this country. No sacrifice is going to be too great. Never give any information to the police. Give your name and address and tell the police to go to Hell. Tell them to voetsak." Now, doctor, that type of language, that would be more consistent with the policy of violence than a policy of non-violence, wouldn't it? Could I just comment about the speech, my lords, before I answer the question? It really depends on what the speaker had in mind here regarding the removal of Western Areas. If the speaker meant that there will be a clash where Congress would go into the attack, that is outside the policy of the rganisation, but if the speaker means that it's likely Congress men would be attaoked during the removal - that there would be some bloodshed through attack, then I think it falls in line with the warning which we sometimes give to people. But it is so difficult to make out what the speaker really had in mind. Yes. Now, Dr.Conco, I'm not asking you to tell me what the speaker had in mind. I don't want you to try and delve into his mind. If you take those words on their face value, don't you agree that that type of language> taken at its face value, is more consistent with the policy of violence than a policy

2 11262 SR. CONGO of non-violence? As I said, it depends on the two 1 interpretations - it is capable of two interpretations. That is, if the speaker means that Congress... BEKKER J; Will you approach it from this angle: It may he that the speaker had two or three things in mind hut from the point of view of the person hearing 5 those words, what would you say? Prom the point of view of a person hearing those words, my lord, personally when I hear this speechread it doesn't give me the impression that the speaker is telling people that they must fight on that day But it is really a ques- 10 tion of interpretation, my lord; to somebody it might mean that he is saying Congress must attack on that day. MB. TRENGOVE: Dr. Conco, you say to you it does not mean that there must be any fight because you wave 15 this magic wand of non-violence policy and then all language becomes innocent. Is that correct? In a non-violent resistance it is not excluded that there might be an attack on the non-violent resisters. Dr.Conco, this reference to the police as 20 imbeciles and! tell the police to go to hell', what effect would that have on a community like the people in Sophiatown? I think there is very strong feeling about the removal itself in Sophiatown; there was very, very strong feeling about that; people really resisted this removalm and sometimes strong feelings would reach emotional outbursts. Now if there was such a strong feeling did the African National Congress try to fan the flames or did they try to pour oil on the troubled waters? 30

3 11265 DR. CONCO In fact the African National Congress tried its "best to 1 collect the people and get them organised, and implored them never to employ methods which wouldn't pay... By this type of speech? I wouldn't say "by this type of speech. Right. Dr.Conco, I may ask you to comment 5 at the end - - it may he unfair at this stage to get you to express an opinion on single speeches - - I just want to give you a few more. I want to refer you to Vol. 43, it's a meeting of the 2nd May, 1954, at Sophiatown, page8444» and the evidence is that a speaker by 10 the name of Joseph Molife spokej as I say, I'm not asking you at this point whether this man spoke or not. The speaker is Joseph Molife and at the bottom of page 8443 he starts his speech, and he refers to the Government:as the organisation grows stronger the 15 Government grows weaker; then he says, "We must fight bitterly back against the unreasonable laws of the Government. Oar kaffirs carry passes and not the Boers of Malvern and Linden. Police arrest the natives of Sophiatown but not the Europeans. Ten natives are hanged 20 in Pretoria whilst Europeans get off scott free. We don't want to be removed from Sophiatown because we live in peace here. The time of Imperialists is coming to an end. We now fight for the possession of the land for which our forefathers fought. This removal from 25 Sophiatown Is something that touches all Africans. You must just wait for the word from your leaders as to what to do and how to fight. We warn the whites that even though we are tools, through removing us from our homes we are not going to be the tools of Verwoerd. 30

4 11264 DR.CONCO When you take up arms you will get Italians from 1 Alexander and other places that are going to help yon. in your struggle. You must be prepared to die for your freedom. It won't make much difference because you are dying daily of disease and starvation; you are being shot dead by the police." Then at the same 5 meeting, Resha spoke. If you look at page 8445, at the top of the page, Resha speaks and half way down the bottom of the page he refers to the fact that Dr. Verwoerd said the people will be glad to go to Meadowlands, and he speaks about this removal of Meadowlands, 10 and at 8446, doctor, after referring to the Government who started the Cheesa-Cheesa movement, but that the#e is no such organisation here, the speaker says; "Let me educate the Government, we have no intention even to start such an organisation here; we straggle 15 in our own way. The struggle of Kenya.... "? I haven't got that portion. Page 8446J doctor? Oh, I'vegot it now. "The struggle of Kenya is being fought in the forests of Kenya but our battle will be fought in 20 Eloff Street. There it took the Kenya people only 18 months to make their own machine guns", and then he goes on. A certain part of his speech was taken down in a native language, and then if you go to the next page he says, at 8447, "Dr.Verwoerd is just 25 like a horse with blinkers. You must be prepared to fight and you must be prepared to fight. Dr.Verwoerd will fight you. Our present Government is a very desperate clique. Before we achieve freedom some of us will have to die. What I say today may be the 30

5 11265 of my death. The Dutchmen here form the opinion that 1 what I have said today I must be arrested for. The Government shoot the Africans from behind. You must be ready every hour. The hour may be very near." The next meeting* my lords, is a meeting of the 7th March, 1954, also at Alexander...?* I don't know whether 5 I'll be expected to comment on these issues, when they are all finished. I'll ask you a general question at the end, Dr*Conco, on these speeches. If you want to make any comment of your own now, do so, Dr.Conco? Yes; for 10 instance, the speech by Molife, telling the people that they must expect to die for their freedom, won't make much difference because you are daily dying of disease, and starvation, and you are being shot dead by the police'. Well, this, 'You must be prepared to 15 die', it would appear to me that what the speaker had in mind was that the people were boing warned that if they take part in the resistance it can happen that they will be shot by the police. That's the interpretation I give to it. It could be interpreted otherwise 20 too, my lords, depending really on the context of the whole speech, whether the whole speech here is recorded. It's so difficult to know from only a portion. Then there is the next speech referring to, "We have no intention of starting such organisations here". It 25 starts "The Government wants to start the Mau Mau and Cheesa-Cheesa movement; there is no such organisation here". Then it goes on, 'The struggle of Kenya is being fought in the forests of Kenya but our battle will be fought in Eloff Street'. 'It took the Kenya 30

6 11266 DR. GONCO people only eighteen months to make their own machine 1 guns." Well, this, my lords, is capable of two interpretations. The reference to Kenya and the battle in Eloff Street, if it meant retailiation by the Congress members to fight, then it's definitely out of policy, that is 'Our battle will be fought in Eloff 5 Street 1 ; that is definitely out of policy and it can give the impression to the listener that they must fight a battle in Eloff Street to defend their rights. Alright, doctor. I now want to refer you 10 to Vol, 44, page 8793, it's a meeting on the 7th March, 1954, at Alexandra, and the speaker at 8793 is alleged to have been Sibande. Yes, I've got Have you got that? That's where it starts; he speaks about 15 Bantu Education and a number of other things, and then if you turn to 8794, the second paragraph there, where he speaks about reference books, that? Yes. have you got It refers to 'The army cars, when the war 20 was over, they turned against us, and yet they were chasing the Germans. The Government today are making the people live a slave life, but if you die for something which is yours, you will be dying the right way. I say the Government must destroy Sophiatown 25 under our dead bodies. Let us tell our children to live waiting for death at any time. I don't care about banning, whether yuu speak or not is the same. And then he goes on, and says: "I do not say take 30

7 11267 DR. OONCQ sticks or irons to go and break the Europeans' houses; 1 nobody will help us if we don't help ourselves. Be leaders, all of you; do not give the Government information. I appeal to you to pull the A.N.C.wagon. If the leader is afraid to go to gaol he is not fit to be a leader. The time for speeches is past, but 5 the time is for action. The leader is only to show the people the way. We are waiting for our death only. We spoke in the English language to the Smuts Government, but he did not hear us. In 1948, when the Nationalist Government came into power we spoke Afri- 10 kaans, but Malan never heard us."? May I comment on it? Yes, comment? Yes, there is reference here to, for instance 'If we die - - hut if you die for something which is yours, you will be dying the right way'. 15 'I say the Government must destroy Sophiatown under our dead bodies',, Well, it's so vague that it can lead one to the conclusion that what the speaker might have had in mind was that the African National Congress people might have to resist, or that they would be killed, 20 but then it isso vague that it can give both interpretations, and if the speaker had in mind that there will be resistance, violent resistance, by the A.N.C.members, then its completely outside the policy of the organisa- 25 tion, and the language is rather strong here, about death and so on. And if it does mean that they must resist to the point where the Government must remove it over their dead bodies, that they must not co-operate, even if 30

8 11268 DR. OONCO the police arrive - they must resist to the point that 1 they might be killed, you agree that the speech could have that meaning? I don't know whether it would have that meaning; whether it would mean they should resist by fighting... Alright, doctor,...? If it implies that "tiey must 5 resist by fighting then it's definitely out of policy. BEKKER J: But to assist us, what do you say - how should that speech be interpreted? My lord, I could interpret it both ways. But on the face of it when he says 'But if you die for something that is 10 yours, you will be dying the right way', 'I say the G-overnment must destroy Sophiatown under our dead bodies'. There is there an implication, my lord, that the people would have to die. MR. TREMGOVE: Alright, doctor. Now, while we 15 are at that volume would you just turn to page I'm sorry, 8789, doctor. That is a meeting of the 21st February, 1954, Colonial Youth Day, Alexandra, And this is alleged to be a speech by Robert Resha. Now if you look at page 8788, doctor, where he starts 20 speaking he refers to the fact that Luthuli was not there and Marks was not there, and that Dr.Verwoerd sends people to camps, and then he says at the top of page 8789: "I wish to say to these people called Foreign natives, we will be with them here; those in 25 Parliament say the Indians must go. They will go first. This country is ours. We are prepared to face bullets, atom bombs, for the cause of freedom. There is no such thing as the Cheesa-Cheesa movement, it has no 50

9 11269 DR. CONGO meaning, just like Mau Mau. The Government has its 1 amendments. The Government of Kenya built the Mau Mau. Here in South Africa they introduce Cheesa- Cheesa, so that they can use their amendments. We have the A.N.C. Africans, A.N.C. of the S.A.Indians, so long as we live in this country we will not allow 5 the Fascist Government in our country. Government is waiting to see what the African people will do. Sisulu left without their knowledge. They do not know what is happening in Sophiatown now. We, the oppressed people, are prepared to sacrifice our bodies or blood 10 if freedom be achieved in that manner. We will organise every where for the people to join the Liberatory Movement. You will be told of what the second phase will be. Be ready, nobody knows the day and the hour. I thank you for coming to this meeting"? Well, the first 15 part, my lords of the speech - - well, it's the usual talk about the Mau Mau and Cheesa- Cheesa, which was introduced by the Government. But the second part, where "We, the oppressed people, are prepared to sacrifice with our bodies or blood if freedom be achieved in that manner", 20 well, it does give the impression - - it really depends on what the speaker had in mind; as I say it is so difficult. Personally, when I look at the speech it is capable of twp interpretations - that is, either the speaker was warning his people that 'If you resist at 25 Sophiatown then you are likely to be shot' - it's capable of both interpretations, my lords. If the speaker had in mind that there should be a violent resistance, then it is definitely outside the policy. 30

10 11270 DR. C0NC0 Doctor, the next is at page 8854, same volume. 1 It's a meeting of the 25th June, 1954, in Alexandra, a meeting of the A.N.C. Now, you see it is alleged to be a speech by Phineas Nene; look at the bottom of page 8854; have you got that? YeS, I've got it. Now, he deals there with the Defiance Campaign 5 and turn overto the next page and he deals with Port Elizabeth; ho deals with the secretary-general and he says he was supposed to have been there but he's gone to the Cape Province. He refers to the visit of Luthuli 10 to the Transvaal in the near future, and then he says: this is halfway down the page 'On the 11th July " have you got that? Not yet. In the middle of the page? Yes. On the 11th July, 1954, at Sophiatown there 15 will be a big meeting; every branch is requested to attend. You all know that so long as the Africans are still alive they will be determined to resist the decision of the Government to remove Sophiatown. We understand that those people in Meadowlands will 20 be given twenty years lease - which means that after thirty years now they may be ejected. No animals will be allowed in Meadowlands. Thousands and thousands who have their businesses of their own will not move to Meadowlands", and then the words 'Resolution 25 of the A.N.C. says Sophiatown will not be moved under the dead bodies of the Africans." "Do you agree", and the audience shouts 'Yes'".? Yes, it's again the same thing, where you get 'Sophiatown will be removed under the dead bodies of the Africans'. I don't really 30

11 11271 DR. CONCO dmn't think that was the policy of the organisation. 1 It's definitely... BEKKER J: You say this is out of policy? Yes. Whatever the speaker might have meant, my lord, it's very difficult to know, but the theme of 'Africans will have to move - -" I mean the policy was they should not 5 move voluntarily. MR. TRENGOVE: Now, Dr.Conco, I wantto refer you to another meeting. It's a meeting of the 29th April, 1956, an A.N.C.Y.L. meeting at Sophiatown. The evidence was that the speech was taken down by Constable Schoeman 10 was a shorthand writer. At page 7825, doctor. BEKKER J: Is it still volume 44? MR. TRENGOVE: No, my lord, this is volume 40. Page 7825, doctor. At the bottom of the page you will see the speaker is Resha, is that correct? Yes. 15 Now, Constable Schoeman said that he spoke intermittently in English and in a native language. Now I'm only referring to the English portions of his speech. At the top of page 7826, doctor, he starts off by saying, "Why give African people education?" Then 20 he says, "Why is it that the Afrikaners who come from Holland, people who don't know who their ancesters are - who don't know their forefathers or mothers, do not want to give us education. The Afrikaners are afraid to give the sons and daughters of the workers education 25 because they are lazy people; they want to live on Africans. They are no better than bugs. The Afrikaners are afraid that if the African people achieve education they will remember the day of Bloed River. 30

12 11272 DR. CONGO They know that the Zulu blood which is inherent in every 1 Zulu man, they will remember the day when Dingaan put his spears in the heart of the Boers. They knowthat once the sons and daughters ofthis country are educated they will remember the day when the great man Sikukune.. "then he left out something"they know 5 that once we are educated we will remember the days of the great sons of Sesutos, the days of the mountain they stole the hearts of those hungry people. They will remember the Basuto people, will remember that the day of the revolvers and the guns could do 10 nothing. Stones came down and everyone was killed.? When the stones came running "When the stones came running everyone was killed, and, of course, if the African children are educated they will remember the great day when the great 15 gentleman Makana said to the Afrikaans tomorrow..." and then something is left out. Then he refers to the education and says: "The Afrikaners and Dr.Verwoerd know that if you are educated you will play them the same truck that the great Dingaan played on the world when he called them to lunch because they were always hungry, and they put the spears through their hearts. The Afrikaners know that once your children are educated under you and me they will not be afraid of the Afrikaners who are carrying the revolvers." "The reason why Dr.Verwoerd doesn't want your children to be educated is because he knows the minute you are educated he knows that you will know that the grandfather of every Afrikaner was a thief, no other than Jan van Ribeeck

13 < DR. CONCO That is why, friends, I say to you this afternoon it 1 is inportant that you oust refuse to accept Bantu Education, "because it is going to teach your children to look up at the Europeans just because his face is white." And then he goes on and calls upon the youth of Sophiatown, and then he says: "One day in China 5 when the English people had refused education to the Chinese people in the sane way as the Afrikaners are doing to-day, this is what happened. The Chinese people could not get paper, they could not get pens to write with, but they decided to use stones and in 10 order to write they extracted the blood in order to sign messages to other Chinese in other provinces. And therefore I want to say to the youth of Sophiatown our first duty is to handle these people in the flying squads; they are nothing, we can handle them. For 15 many years our great leadersof the African National Congress have been speaking to various governments, still the governments cannot understand the language our leaders have been speaking. This happened in Russia, in the 18th Century, when the sons of Russia 20 wanted to convince the Tzarist Government that they were oppressed the government could not understand the language of the leaders of the Liberatory Movement of Russia. But it was only when the youth of Russia spoke that they had to listen. The leaders of the French 25 Government could not undersland. Even the resolutions that the people took were not seriously taken, but when the youth started to take action then the government began to understand. When the people of Sophiatown say to Dr.Verwoerd 'We do not want to be removed from 30

14 11274 DR. CONGO Sophiatown Dr.Verwoerd did not listen, "but two weeks 1 ago at the beerhall the youth of Newclare spoke the language and since that day the police have not come back again to the beerhall. The language which the youth spoke at this beerhall is the language which many a white man in this country understands better, but I want to say to the youth that that language is better understood when you speak it in the streets of Sophiatown." "When the people of Germiston said to the authorities 'We do not want your raw food, we do not want your horse meat' they did not understand, but one day the people said 'There is one language every man understands, today let us speak that language and to-day the horse meat is not cooked in anyy hostel'. Now I want to ask you, doctor, for the moment, that the language which the youth spoke at Newclare and 15 th language which was spoken in Germiston was a language of violence? Could I just be reminded of what happened at Newclare? You must assume for the moment that there 10 were riots at those two places? Oh, I see. 20 "Every day we say to you it is important for the development of the country, we say it is important for the African people to achieve their liberation, we must organise it, and then we shall achieve our liberation. The African National Congress and its national policy also says that we want to live happily in this country, with everybody in this country. That policy of the African National Congress must be carried out. Last month in Port Elizabeth the young and still

15 11275 DR. CONCO well fed Afrikaner police were not ashamed to go to New Brighton with their sten guns and kill an innocent African youth of 21." Then the speaker changed to a native language, and he continued in English again: "It is time for us to consider that the blood of that young man must be a way towards freedom; therefore we must see who our enemies are, and it does not matter who it is; somebody, somehow, must pay for that blood. Yes, if an African kills a European in this country we know that not only has the African committed a crime for which he is going to suffer, but all of us are going to suffer. Why should we sleep when an African is killed, just because these Afrikaners decided to kill him? It is clear to me, youth of Sophiatown, that this country will never be free from oppression and exploitation, until thd youth take it upon themselves and say 'We can give it to them'. The day, friends, is coming and I call upon the youth to join the Youth League because you may not be there, so that when the day comes that we know where to get you. We have now run ourselves into a river, and we have decided rather than drown ourselves it is better for us to turn back and save the men and women who live in this country."? My lords, the first part of the speech referring to Bantu Education and the historical facts to happenings in South Africa like the Dingaan episode and so on, it is rather strong language that is used.. because after the end of that speech, after giving all those illustrations he says 'That is why, friends, I say to you this afternoon it is important that you must refuse Bantu Education".

16 11276 DR. CONCO "It is because it is going to teach your children to 1 grow up as the European, just because his face is white." The first part refers to Bantu Education - - that is very strong language used against Bantu Education... While you are on that first part, do you think that that type of speech would tend to promote racial 5 harmony or do you think it would tend to promote racial discontent and disharmony and unrest? Well, personally I would not use this language here. Why wouldn't you? Referring to historical events - - things which have actually happened in his- 10 tory - - but it is rather strong language. And the second part about the youth using the language of the beerhall of G-ermiston, I think that is definitely out of policy. Now, doctor, yesterday when I asked you whether 15 in connection with the speedh on the 22nd November, 1956, any action had been taken against Resha, about what he said, you said 'Well, no, because you could not have a trial within a trial'. Now, you've heard a few of these speeches. No action was at any time 20 taken against Resha for anything that he said at any public meeting, isn't that correct? I've just heard these speeches in this case; I've never heard of them before. You would expect action to be taken against 25 him if that wasn't in line with Congress policy, not so? If the speeches came to the notice of the African National Congress, that is the National Executive or the Provincial Executive; personally I am a member of

17 11277 DR. GONCO the National Executive - the first tine I heard these 1 speeches was here in Court in this case. Alright. Dr,Conco, I know just want to refer you to Volume 38, page 7574 which is a meeting of the 18th September, called "Freedom Charter Committee Meeting" which was held under the auspices of the 5 National Consultative Committee for the National Action Council of the Congress of the People. Have you got page 7574? Yes, I've got it. Now this deals with a speech made by Nimrod Sejake. He was asked by the chairman to speak on a 10 section of the Charter which deals with the part - "The people shall share the country's wealth", and Nimrod Sejake was asked by the chairman to speak on that portion of the Charter, and he does so, and if 15 you look at page 7575, after speaking about the conditions in this country, Nimrod Sejake says this: Eook at the right hand side - between lines 5 and 10 - it refers to the ownership of land, and he says: - "This ownership of land becomes meaningless under 20 the present system in South Africa, and you and I must correct it. If you don't God will not, for he has nothing to do with your conditions and omissions. He is not responsible for you. You must sit down and form the machinery for freedom. There is a burning need 25 for change, a definite change. A progressive step is necessary to bring the shape of things to come. One million signatures alone are not sufficient, action is the correct..." the word after that should be 'dose'.. "The proletariat must shout, not only from 30

18 11278 DR. CONCO the political platform because this explains the 1 situation "? This merely.... "This merely explains the situation. They must also create a theatre, and they must fight tactfully in actual manoeuvre and employ a definite amount of energy for the freedom to come. This will give us 5 some guarantee that the road to the re-division of land amongst those who work it has been found", and then he deals with a lot of matters that he wants changed, schools, prisons - prisons must be changed into schools and he deals with other matters; then if you turn to 10 page 7576, look at line 15 - have you got that? Yes, I've got that. Take from line 10, doctor, "But we are fighting this evil today because it inconveniences the menfolk; they say the wives must carry the same devil. 15 That will be the day " referring to passes. Then he says "There must be work and security. The period seems to be fast arriving"; then he talks about the Liberatory Movement and he says, "All the workers who are in the grinding mill of misery and poverty should 20 join hands for a determined achievement of the peoples freedom. The start of the struggle cannot be won early enough, whilst there are other sections of the population which for one reason or another enjoy rights and concessions and feel they must stand aloof to 25 protect and maintain these privileges." He then asks the workers to take part in the struggle, and then at the top of page dealing now with the fact that the workers must take part in the struggle, he says: - 30

19 11279 DR. CONCO "It requires hard practical work and sacrifice. 1 One must he prepared to clash with the servants of the State, and if the struggle assumes very large and country wide dimensions one shall have to clash even with the armed forces of the country. That is the test we must pass, before there can he work and security,"? Yes, 5 the first part which deals with the Freedom Charter - then when he comes to wind up his speech, that 'One must he prepared to clash with the servants of the State and if the struggle assumes very large and country wide dimensions..." and also the part referring to 10 the clash with the armed forces, I think that is definitely outside the policy of the organisation - violence. Now, doctor, is that in accordance with Congress policy? No, it's not in accordance with Congress policy, definitely not. 15 Alright. Now I want to referyou to volume No.4-6, page this is the last meeting that I want to refer you to, Dr.Conco. It is a meeting of the 18th November, 1956, called an Anti-Permit Committee meeting, and at page 9231 Mathlo (?) speaks. Do you know Jonas 20 Mathlo? Yes, I know him. What is he in the A.N.C? I think he was in the Sophiatown Branch I've just forgotten his office,. Alright. Doctor, he speaks on the question of Permits which involves passes, then he refers to the 25 fact that Western Powers want to employ 6,000 people and police to go and fight in Egypt. Then he says; - "I want you to understand this symptom of Mpipis and Mgopes (?) is the root of oppression." What do those words mean, Mpipes and Mgopes? I suppose it means 30

20 11280 DR. C0NC0 informers. 1 And the other word? Well, Mgopes, I don't know what it means - - there are probably different interpretations in different areas.. sort of detectives. He says: He refers to the fact that Africans may be recruited to take part in this war against Egypt and 5 about the Government determination to arrest you under the leaders of the A.N.C, and says that the Government was informed that people were committing High Treason, ^nd then he says: "Friends, when your leaders have been arrested....."? What page please? 10 The same page, at the bottom, line 30? Thanks. "Friends, when your leaders have been arrested I want you to do something. I don't care what you will do but please do it. You must be prepared to shed your blood for freedom If you are not prepared to shed your 15 blood you must know that no freedom - when you want to buy freedom for your children you must shed your blood. The African people will never see freedom unless you are prepared to shed blood. Once you are prepared to do that you will see freedom. That is the only security. I 20 want to emphasise this, when I speak of blood. I don't speak of any resting - - I mean the blood in your veins When the white people came to this country they bought our country with blood. Go and organise the African people. When you are in numbers then you must be pre- 25 pared to shed your blood. I want to tell you that you will never get freedom in this country unless you are prepared to shed blood." Then he says, people have died in Eustenburg, people have died in Vlakfontein, 30

21 11281 DR. CONCO people are dying everywhere in Africa, The people are 1 being prosecuted in Ruatenburg. My people, there is nothing that will set the African people free in this country rather than to shed blood." Now, there can't be any doubt about the blood that he is referring to? Yes, he is referring to the blood - - he is telling the 5 people that they must be prepared to shed blood. I think - well, this one, too, is violent, though, of course, I don't know what the speaker had in mind, but taking it on the face of it, I think it gives the impression of telling the people - - it doesn't really tell the 10 people that they should fight.. I don't get that impression, but the use of the word blood is often in that speech and it is outside the policy of the organisation. It appears to be violent, Of course there is the question - - the people were warned that if they 15 take part in Congress policy,, while it is a non-violent policy, there is likelihood of their being killed.. Now, doctor, I just want to illustrate, and give you a general example. If the freedom fighters are exhorted - - say they are told from a public platform 20 "You must resolve to fight and die together, and never turn back until freedom is won; you must resolve to fight and die together and never turn back until freedom is won", would that type of statement be consistent with A.N.C. policy? Fight.. well, these words like fight 25 and die together - - are used in political language. Unless it says 'You must attack' then that would be a different matter. But in political language one uses the word "You must resolve to fight and die together in your struggle". Those words are used quite freely, we 30

22 11282 DR. CONCO often find them in speeches of the African National Con- 1 gress. And if they qualified that the people must fight and die together and never turn back until freedom is won - if the speaker says "Look here now, you must remember the supreme sacrifice made by our people in 5 the past, and that must inspire you to fight and die together until freedom is won, and never turn back"... would that be consistent with A.N.C. policy? There are quite a lot of speeches which do refer to the question of the supreme sacrifice, that people have sacri- 10 ficed their lives for freedom, not necessarily imploring the audience to fight - - it need not be a violent speech telling the people to fight. The words are often used figuratively. A lot of speeches contain those words in the African National Congress. And, of course, it 15 usually carries quite a lot of feeling, because of the disabilities - - people really do feel badly about it. Yes. Now, doctor, I want to put it to you, that the language you have listened to this morning, assuming t hat that type of language was used at meeting after 20 meeting, not only in Johannesburg and Port Elizabeth, at meetings of the African Congress, assuming that that type of language was used at these meetings, don't you agree, Dr.Conco, that that is more consistent with a fight away from the polling booth and Parliament, with 25 a fight that qchieves to attain its ends through Parliament? Firstly, the reference to meeting after meeting. The meetings of the African National Congress are many - - over the period of four years there were thousands

23 11283 DR. CONCO of meetings of the A.N.C. which were held all over the 1 dountry - Port Elizabeth, Cape Town, Durban, East London, all over the country - - in the countryside, all over, and usually meetings of the African National Congress - the police are usually there almost invariably, and of the meetings I heard reported in this c:%se during the 5 trial we had hundreds of them read during the Preparatory Examination, though probably one couldn't hear very well - a lot of them - - and I wouldn't agree with the statement that meeting after meeting such speeches were made as have been read in the Court I'm not asking you that, doctor...? It's only a small part of a great bulk of the meetings of the African National Congress, some of which have not been read to Court. Dr.Conco, I'm not asking you that. I said, 15 assume that at meeting after meeting this type of statement was made - - I'm not asking you to give evidence as to what wa said at meetings all over the country. Assuming that type of speech was made, do you agree that it's more consistent with a policy of violence than with a policy 20 of non-ciolence? Assuming every meeting, meeting after meeting this has been said... it's true there is more violence in it - - if at every meeting one would hear this type of thing - - but as I have already said, of the meetings of the African National Congress, of which there 25 have been thousands, all over the country, these form only the minutest fraction - a very insignificant fraction of the meetings that have been held by the African National Congress, my lords. L J

24 11284 DR. CONCO Dr.Conco, I'll leave it there, except to say 1 this: you know that the people who made these speeches have at no time been expelled from the African National Congress? Quite so. And a man like Mr. Vundla who went to negotiate with the Government, to take the children back to school, 5 he was expelled on that account? It came to the hotice of the Congress Movement... Yes, and because he tried to negotiate with the Government to take the children back to school he was expelled, is that correct? His activities, which were 10 contrary to the policy, came to the notice of the Provincial Authorities in the Transvaal. Alright.? And action was taken about him. Now, Dr.Conco, yesterday I think I didn't draw your attention to this: I asked you about two documents 15 which you said you didn't really know about; the one was a document, Comments on the Draft Constitution; do you remember that? Yes, I remember it was shown to me. And you said you didn't know of that document, is that correct?-- I didn't know about it. 20 Now I should have told you, Dr.Conco, at the time, that that document was also in the documents found in your possession not denying it. WC.20? It's quite likely, I am Is that correct? Yes. 25 To what does that relate, Memo on the Draft Constitution of what? I suppose it was a memo on the draft constitution of the African National Congress. Yes, because you also had in your possession a draft constitution, WC.29. Now that roneoed circular 30

25 11285 DR. CONCO document, Memo on the Draft Constitution, where did that 1 come from? I can't remember very well. Where do you think it came from? It might have come from Head Office. From Head Office? Yes. Isn't it likely that it came from Head Office? 5 Yes, it's most likely from Head Office. It's a roneoed document, and it's a memo on the draft constitution of the A.N.C? Yes. Alright. Thank you, Dr Conco. RUMPFF J: Which was the other document that 10 you handed him? MR. TRENGOVE: My lords, it was EPM.29. RUMPFF J: A Memo on Draft Constitution? MR. TRENGOVE: That's right, my lord. RUMPFF J: You said yesterday that you had not 15 seen that document before? Yes, my lord, I had not seen it. Is it possible? It is possible. Do you still maintain that you have not seen that document before? My lord, it is possible that the 20 document came - - some of these documents come and you don't open them. I don't remember very well - it's such a long time ago now. Was this a constitution of the A.N.C? The 25 draft memo on the Constitution of the A.N.C, And comments? Yes. On the draft? Yes my lord. Was this never discussed by the National Executive? It was. From 1953 there were several drafts of the constitution of the African National Congress, and 30

26 11286 DR. CONCO there was discussion about the new Constitution so there were several drafts circulated, from 1953 until the new constitution came into being in I could have received it but not have opened it. You might not have opened it? Yes; I mean sometimes documents come - one has such a lot of books in the office - - it might have come and not been opened. But I don't remember it very well. MR. TRENGOVE: Just to refresh your memory, Dr.Conco, this is the document which, apart from the comments on the constitution, says at page 3, "We have got to realise that we are aiming at the seizure of power over the whole country, and thus should be our outlook". Then there was another document, Dr.Conco, which I should have put to you and that is the "Isizwe" referring to the article "The fin of Paint costing Lives" - - do you remember? Yes, I remember that. We dealt with that. Now, that "Isizwe" was also in your possession, TO.23. Can y0u remember that? Yes, I remember it was referred to me yesterday, I think. You were referred to the "Isizwe", though I didn't refer you to the passage. My lords, that document is No.PDN.168. Is that right, doctor? Yes. So it's also likely that you might have read that article?-. It's likely. You did nothing about it? You said yesterday that you thought the language was too strong, but you did nothing about it? I really don't remember, I do not recall reading it, but it is likely that I read it; I don't know now, it's quite a long time ago.

27 11287 DR. CONCO Dr.Conco, I think you said during the course of 1 your evidence - or just before we step off here on this question of documents which you know and which you don't know the existence of - - this document, Political Organisation, B.25, do you know this, doctor? It refers to forms of struggle which are set out - a programme of 5 action of Do you remember the document, doctor? I'm scanning it through, my lords. No, I don't remember this. You don't remember this? No, I don't remember. You see, it refers to boycotts and strike ac- 10 tion, peoples' press, role of leaders, building of peoples' movements; would you agree that strike action which represents a direct clash between working class and ruling class for mastery often does lead to rebellion, revolution and armed clashes, since the ruling class will 15 resort to violence if it thinks its rule is threatened. Do you agree that strike action might have those results? Yes, I think yesterday we discussed that - - it can have those results. Now, doctor, you said, I think, that you, 20 as part of your duties, you didn't know anything about the education of volunteers, based on the three lectures A.84, 85 and 86? Correct. But you did do something about the political education of the people in Natal; I think you said you 25 were instrumental in starting a Summer School? Correct. At which lectures were given?- - Yes, that is correct. KENNEDY J: Did you start that Summer school? Yes, my lord; that was in Durban. 30

28 11288 DR. CONCO Was that a different one to the one started "by, 1 or alleged to have been started by Yengwa? Well, Yengwa and myself, my lord, in MR, TRENGOVB: And did you two then start this summer school and get people to lecture there?--- Yes. Did you also lecture there?-- I also lectured. 5 And what was the purpose of the school? The purpose of the school was just to give general information about the problems in South Africa, and that all political leaders must be aware of certain things. And did you get J.G.Matthews to lecture 9 J.G. 10 Matthews sent us a lecture. Oh, did he send it to you; he didn't give it himself? No, he didn't give the lecture himself. And how did you use these lectures that were sent; how did you use them? We read the lecture and 15 then there was discussion after every lecture had been read. And did you then distribute these lectures? Yes, we had intended to distribute the lecjures amongst the youth in Natal, but we ran short of funds.. 20 They were roneced and they wore fairly well d istributed, were they not? I don't remember I think the secretary was still preparing to distribute them when we ran short of funds. Now you say these lectures were read and were 25 discussed. Who led the discussions? Well, we would just ask any member to lead the discussion on it - - there was no particular member who led the discussion. And who read the lecture? Well, for instance J.G.Matthews 1 lecture, I think I read that one. 30

29 11289 DR. CONCO Now, doctor, could you just tell me - I'm just 1 interested in two paragraphs in this lecture, "African Nationalism today by J.G. Matthews 1 '. RUMPFF J: Well, was that a lecture? That was a lecture, my lord. MR. TRENGOVE: N.A.81. I think you've got it 5 in your possession; just identify if these are the lectures, doctor. Doctor, I! ve got a copy of lecture by Matthews found in your possession EC.40, it might be easier if you follow from that, KENNEDY J: What is the other one? 10 MR. TRENGOVE: NA.81, my lord. It's also in the record, my lord under SDN.79. Now, Dr.Conco,would you look at the first paragraph in the lecture of Matthews where he says, "South Africa is a multi-racial country inhabited by no less than four or five racial 15 groups; firstly, there is the majority, the Africans, who are the original inhabitants and owners of the country; secondly, there is the big minority group, the Europeans who consist of English and Afrikaners; then there are the Coloured a, and fi-r-blly the Indians. 20 A- situation such as this, in which four or five groups with different racial origins and cultures, and completely integrated in one socr'o economic system, is a problem unique.,.."? Is probably unique. "Is probably unique. In the complexity of 25 its multi-racial society South Africa can be compared to pre-revolutionary Russia, where there existed myriads of racial groi ps, a nation antagonistic to one another, and it was only through a revolution which usshered in complete equality and an end to racial discrimination 30

30 11290 DR. CONCO and national oppression, that it was possible to create 1 a united multi-national State, the Soviet Union". you remember that paragraph? Yes. Do Now, that revolution, doctor, of course, was a violent revolution, wasn't it? Yes. Now then he refers to South Africa as being a 5 Colonial country...? But, my lords, he refers here to a historical fact, where there was a violent revolution. I don't think he implies that here, too, we shall have a violent revolution. No, no, doctor...?-_ I just wanted to point 10 that out. I'm not asking you anything, doctor, I'm just reading to you; you see, words have meanings, doctor; sometimes, as you say, a revolution means something.. now, in Russia the revolution meant a violent revolution 15? Yes. Now, if you turn to page 5..? You mean page 5 of the original? Yes, it's the page which starts, "African Nationalism does not aim at the freedom of Africans only" 20? Yes, I've got it. The next paragraph, doctor, "As regards the methods whereby their aims will be achieved, African Nationalists believe that this will not come about through smiling and being sweet and reasonable with the Imperial- 25 ists. The only weapon in the hands of Africans and other oppressed people lies in the creation of powerful national movements, based on the oiling masses, and led by the revolutionary intelligentsia"? Yes, it's there. Doctor, revolutionary intelligentsia, would 30

31 11291 DR. CONCO that refer to the type of revolutionary intelligentsia 1 that gave rise to the revolution in Russia? No, I think here it refers to revolutionary intelligensia which is in South Africa, which is making demands for revolutionary changes in the country. And are they not the people who want to have a 5 revolution in this country? As I have said the word revolutionc an he used in two contexts, hut here, the way I understand it, is that the intelligentzia in the African National Congress and A.N.C.Youth League was revolutionary; it wanted revolutionary changes in the 10 country. Alright, doctor. Just one last paragraph, and that is the last paragraph on the page, "No power on earth can stop the forward march of the African people and their allies. The Lilliputian efforts of 15 the Malans and others to turn the clock hack hy means of barbarian and repressive laws are futile. Mankind in the latter part of the 20th Century is ready for a final qualitative leap to a new stage in the advance of mankind. History dictates that Africans must be 20 free in order that it might be able to make its proper contribution in this mighty movement." Now, what does the writer mean by the 'final qualitative leap'? I don't know what he intended to mean, but the way I would take it I would think he means the world as a 25 whole is changing and referring to us, interpreting it as I would, as a black man in South Africa, the qualitative leap is when we get all our rights in South Africa. 30

32 11292 DR. CONCO What political theory does that type of lan- 1 guage come from? I don't know any political theory- The final qualitative leap in South Africa is when every African, every Coloured, every Indian will have a vote and have the right to take part in the State. But, Dr.Conco, that would be the result of the 5 leap? That would be the leap. No, that will be the consequence of the leap. What is 'This final qualitative leap' to a new stage. I put it to you, Dr.Conco...,? I don't know what he had in his mind. 10 You don't know? I don't know. You organised these lectures, you approved of them, you used this as a basis for your talks, discussions.,..? Yes, yes. And you don't know what it means?' Well, I 15 know what it means to me and the way I expressed myself when we were discussing... Doctor, I put it to you that you know that the final qualitative leap means the state of affairs when it is ripe for a revolution - then you go over to 20 taking that revolutionary leap. You know that that is what it means? No; I know it as I explained, the final qualitative leap in South Africa is when everybody will get the right to vote, la that what the leap means? That'3 how 25 Iinterpret it. Alright. Now, doctor, these lectures were from the 14th January, 1954, to the 2nd February, 1954, not so? Yes, I think so, I cannot remember the date very well now. 30

33 11293 DR. CONCO Just try, doctor, to remember - - from the 5th 1 January to the 13th January, do you know that the Durban Study Circle also held a summer school when lectures were given? Yes, there was a summer school.. that one I didn't attend. Who was this Durban Study School?-- I cannot 5 remember very well but I think there we re lectures by Dr.Simon to that group. I'm not sure. I think Dr. Simon was giving lectures to another group, which is not this group. But how do you know about it,doctor? Well, 10 had a chat with some of the people who had been there, who came to our school... Some of the people who came to your school also went to the lectures at the Summer School organised by the Durban Study Circle? Yes, they did. 15 Andmembers of your organisation? Some of our members went. Do you know who this Durban Study School is; do you know any of the people in it? As I say, I don't know really who are the people from the Durban Study 20 Circle, but I think I remember Seedat was one.. D.A. Seedat? Yes. Do you know Seedat? Yes, I know him very well. And you think he was one of the people who 25 organised that Summer School? I think so, I think he was one of the people who organised that other school. Doctor, Pembroke Chambers, 472 West Street, Durban, was it the Natal Indian Congress which had their offices there? No, their offices are in Lacarnie 30

34 11294 DR. CONCO Chambers... I think. You don't know? I'm not sure. And what were the A.N.C. offices? Also in Lacarnie's Chambers. 1 Now, Dr.Conco, I referred you to a pamphlet earlier; you never saw the summer school lectures, did you? The others, not ours... Those by Simon? I don't think I've seen them. I might have seen them.. I don't know. Could I just refresh your memory. Have a look at RE.68, doctor. Would that be the lectures - - do you remember if you've seen those lectures? if you cannot remember say so? Really I don't remember very well. 10 Doctor, you said that you hadn't heard - or that you hadn't seen "South Africa's way forward by Moses Kotane"? I had seen it. Oh, you had seen it?-_ I think I said so, yes. That was also used as a basis of lectures to members of the A.N.C? I don't remember. It was a study document...? It could have been used. 20 You don't know? I don't know; it could have been used. Doctor, in regard to the political training do you know this document, Economics and Politics in South Africa, or don't you? Could I just identify it? 25 I might know it, I might not. Well, if you don't just say so. No, I haven't seen this. (COURT ADJOURNED FOR 15 MINUTES).

35 11295 DR. CONCO ON THE COURT RESUMING AT a.m: 1 MR. TRENGOVE: Dr. Conco, the New Age offices in Durban, where were they? They are in Pembroke Chambers. I'm told that the New Age address in 1954 was 6, Pembroke Chambers, 472 West Street, Durban? Yes, I wouldn't be sure about that but it is Pembroke Chambers. 5 You were in touch with New Age when you were selling their newspapers in Natal?-_ Yes, I got my papers from Cape Town direct. Oh, I see. Who was acting for Ne Age in the Durban office; who was in charge there? N.T.Naicker, I think. 10 Doctor, who was in charge of the A.N.C. office in Durban? How do you mean in charge? Well, you have an office in Durban? We had an office in Durban. Where was that? It was in Lacarnie's Chambers. 15 Did you share that with anybody else? Or did you have your own office there?-- We had our own office there. The African National Congress office. And who was in charge of that office? I can't remember - - in 1952 I think we took an office which 20 belonged to H. Conco... I just want to know where your offices were; who was the man who was in charge of the office, the A.N.C. office over this period 1952 to 1956? I was just explaining. There have been changes - we changed 25 offices frequently. During the Defiance Campaign we had a big office which was used by a Transport Company where my uncle was the owner of the office; ithen we shifted upstairs to another office.. the person in charge - - I mean, the Congress workers are voluntary 30

36 11296 DR. CONCO workers - - there was no person who was really in 1 charge and stayed in the office, or who-was a clerk in the office. Yes, hut who was in control of affairs there in the A.N.C. office in Durban? M.B.Yengwa, I think, and T.H. Simalane. 5 Now, as a member of the Executive, I take it you were interested in what was happening in the A.N.C. office and so on, from time to time? Oh, yes, I was very much interested. Doctor, then you would probably recognise this 10 document, A.302, which is alleged to have been found in the offices, also notes for lecturers Do you recognise this document? I don't think I've seen those notes. You don't think so? No, I don't think so, I might have. There is so much material in the office 15 and... But I take it that when you have in your office notes - Economic course on politics and Economics that is the type of lecture which you would use for training your people? Yes I think they were used 20 to train people. There were several lectures, I remember, in Durban - - for instance, our Summer School lectures - - you'd find them lying in the office; sometimes there would be lectures given by Prof.... in the group areas. There were different groups giving 25 lectures. Now, doctor, the African National Congress, in its liberatory struggle, apart from the Congress Movement that was at the core of the struggle, you also endeavoured to build up what one might call a 30

37 11297 DR. CONCO United Front. You tried to elicit the support of other 1 organisations in your struggle for liberation, is that correct? Well, re regarded ourselves as a United Front. The S.A.Indian Congress, the A.N.C., the Congres^ of Democrats, the Coloured Peoples Organisation - we regarded ourselves as a United Front, and also we were 5 calling on the white organisations to unite with us. That's what I mean; you tried to get the support of other organisations who were not really part and parcel of the Congress Movement, isn't that correct? Yes, we were very keen on having a broad front, and 10 we had several - - I remember the Multi Racial Conference, there were interested people, and for instance we took part in the International, the Ministers Association - we attended those conferences; we liked to work with them on specific issues. 15 Yes; and you also sought to elicit supportsympathetic support, from overseas?- Yes, sympathetic support from overseas - several organisations overseas which supported us, like the National Indian congress; they supported our fight. 20 Yes, Now, doctor, you have had the Indictment and you saw that the first charge against you was that you were a member of this conspiracy to overthrow the State; is that correct? Well, I remember. Now you say you deny that you were in a 25 conspiracy to overthrow the State?-- i deny that categorically. But you were, and you did take a very active part in this liberatory movement which the Congresses f ormed, the Call? Yes, I played an active part in 30

38 11298 DR. CONCO the African National Congress which was part of the 1 liheratory movement. And, Dr.Conco, it is correct that you did actually attend and participate in the Congress of the People held at Kliptown on the 25th and 26th June,1955? Correct. 5 That you acted there as Chairman, and it is also correct that you were party to drafting the Freedom Charter and voting in favour of it? That is correct. And it is also correct that that Congress of the People was done in pursuance of the liheratory movement 1 and in pursuance of the objects of the liheratory movement to achieve this new type of State in South Africa? The Freedom Charter was drawn to place down the demands which before had been scattered among all our other organisations to place the demands by a multi-racial 15 group representative of the society we wanted to achieve in South Africa. The broad demands, a Charter of demands and a Charter of Principles which would form the basis of the multi-racial future of South Africa. And you at that Conference voted in ^favour 20 of the adoption of this charter? Yes, we voted in favour of the adoption of the charter. Do you know any of the accused who were there who voted against it? No, I don't remember; it was such a big Conference, I don't rremember. 25 Now, Dr.Conco, it's also alleged against you in the Indictment that you - - on page 68 of Schedule No.3 were a speaker at a certain meeting, portion of which was set out at page 68 of Schedule "C". It wa3 a meeting on the 10th October, AN.95, in A.N.C. meeting, 30

39 11299 RR. CONCO at Durban, is that correct*? It was a conference of 1 the African National Congress, Natal Province. And that Conference was also held in furtherance of the objects of the liberatory movement? The Conference was an annual conference of the African National Congress Province of Natal, 5 And your speech, was that made in furtherance of the liberatory movement? Well, a conference, it was to explain the work that was being done during the year and to explain the policy of the organisation - - well, to consolidate the work of Congress in Natal. ^0 That's right; but you don't deny that you made that speech? No, I don't deny it; I made that speech. And, similarly, Dr.Conco, you attended the meeting of the Congress of the People at the Trades Hall, Johannesburg, on the 25th July, 1954? Before I answer 15 this other question, the speech - - could I have an indication of what speech we're talking about - the speech I made at the Conference in Durban; could I have a look at it? Yes. In the Indictment, the following part 20 of your speech was relied on by the Crown; "The United Party, proving a failure; the Liberal Party is half-way with us, the African National Congress, on some points, but we still go further than that, we of the African National Congress go on unconstitutional methods, for 25 we defy, whereas the Liberal say 'No, we must sweat if we want freedom'": do you remember that? Yes, I think I remember that I could have made that statement, I think I said that in Zulu. That's correct, doctor; and you irere also 30

40 11300 DR C0NC0 at the Congress of the People on the 25th July, 1954, 1 a meeting in the Trades Hall, vsfoere you spoke, also Moretsele and Kathrada; do you remember that? Yes, I remember the Trades Hall meeting; I did speak; I opened the conference of the Congress of the People. And you also in your speech spoke about the 5 liberatory struggle and the non-violent nature of the A.N.C. policy, is that right? Yes, I did. And you remember that Moretsele and Kathrada also spoke?-_ Yes, I remember that meeting. And there was nothing that they said that you io didn't approve of? At the meeting?- It's difficult to remember now what their speeches were. You can't say now? No. Alright....? But I cannot remember anything which I disapproved of. 15 RUMPFF J: Did you ever disapprove at any meeting? No, my lord. Of what was said? At any meeting, my lord? Yes, any A.N.C. meeting? I think in my evidence earlier, on Monday, in Durban, from the members 20 of the public there were people who said they wanted a struggle, a violent struggle and then I did disapprove of that. Yes, you did mention that? I remember two meetings. 25 But apart from that, did you ever disagree openly at a meeting with what a member of the A.N.C. had said at a meeting? It's quite difficult, my lord; I might have. Where I did not agree with a point I think it has happened... but a specific meeting I 30 :.Jut

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