a number of meetings which were held by the South African. At those meetings they i^reached, they didn't practice

Transcription

1 practice and preaching. You have attended, and you know of a number of meetings which were held by the South African Peace Council? Correct. At those meetings they i^reached, they didn't practice did they? That is right. And they preached the sort of thing that I have already indicated to the Court, to you? Did they not? Have you ever found them practising anything? I have b=en to some of these meetings, where persons going to these meetings were checked and if you were not a member of the Congress of Democrats or one of the Congresses, they were not allowed in the meeting. I want to put it to you that that is deliberately untrue? It is the truth. You want to say that the only persons who were allowed to attend these meetings were persons who were members of the Congress of Democrats? Not only the Congress of Democrats, members of one of the Congresses, the C.O.D., the A.N.C., one of these progressive organisations. And members of the South Africa n Peace Council who did not belong to any of these organisations, I suppose they weren't allowed into their own meetings? I do not say that this was the position right through. I am talking about these particular meetings that you are referring to. I am not talking about any policy that went right through. These particular meetings? I am referring to particular meetings. I am asking you before - Are you suggesting that members of the South African Peace Council who did not belong to any of the organisations, which you called the progressive organisations, that they weren't allowed into their own meetings? No, I never suggested that. I did not say that members of the Peace Council w^re not allowed. I say... Do you suggest that every person who was a member of

2 the Peace Council, necessarily was a member ofone of these progressive organisations? No, I never suggested that. I only suggested that at a certain stage, Peace Council meetings were no more open and free to the general public. I happen... Ihey were open and free to their own members were they not? They were free to their own members. And their own members weren't necessarily members of these organisations, were they? No, I don't say that. Why? Were you ever refused admission? Did you indicate that you were a member of the South African Peace Council when you were so refused permission or admission? I usually indicated that it was a Peace Council meeting. I am asking you did you ever indicate when you were refused permission that you were a member of the organisation? At that stage I am surd I was no more regarded as a member At that stage you were regarded as being someone who had insintuated himself into the organisation for the purpose of spying on it? Correct? Not for the purpose of spying. For the purpose of knowing what was going on there. Snooping, if you like? Not snooping. Anyway, that is how you were regarded, isn't that so. That is why you weren't allowed in? Everybody knew I was a member of the Police Force and I didn't blame them for not allowing me into their meetings. When you made your application for membership of the South African Peace Council, did you set out your profession and occupation? I don't think it was... Did you set it out whether it was asked for or not? No. I am not blaming you, please understand me. After all you have got your duties to carry out and you are a member of

3 Police Force. It is your duty to find out as much as you can, and that is the duty generally of members of the Special Branch, is it not so? Exactly. And a number of different techniques were used, by you and other members of the Special Branch in order to find out what is happening in these progressive organisations? Correct. Numbers of techniques, such as hiding behind cupboards to listen to speeches? Such as - listening from concealed places. That is what it amounts to, yes, and using concealed tape recorders? Correct? What is your difficulty? I have never been using that. I never asked you where you had, I am asking you whether this is one of the techniques used by the Special Branch, from your knowledge? It is quite possible. You know it to be so, don't you? I have never used it, so I can't say it definitely was so... You know that others have used it? You can't be in the Special Branch for the last six years without knowing that? I cannot deny that. Or for instance the use of concealed microphones? What is this, it is a microphone, is it not? I cannot see that thing properly. Pass it all to the witness. That is portion of a microphone, isn't it? It could be. Everything is 'it could be'? I am not an expert... In any event, the only point I want to make is this, is that the word possible, one the - one of the techniques that is used is to plant concealed microphones in halls and at meetings. It is possible, y;u know that? It is possible. I cannot deny or confirm that. I haven't been doing that.

4 Tapping of telephones for instance? You don't want to deny that do you? No, I kn.w nothing about that. You know nothing about it. Never heard of it? I've heard of it, yes. In your official capacity? In your official capacity, have you heard of it? I know there has always been blame put on the Special Brunch... No, not blame. I have told you before that I am not blaming anyone. I am merely asking you whether you know that one of the techniques used, and I am not placing blame anywhere, so far as you are concerned, one of the techniques that is used is the tapping of telephones? I have heard it is a technique used in Britain, America, and Russia. In these countries... In America? No, no...? I myself can give no evidence on this in South Africa. You have never come across it in the course of your official duties, anything to indicate that telephones are tapped? Now, come? I know I can say definitely that we did tap telephones during the last war. Not new... So the technique of tapping telephones is not one that is altogether unknown in South Africa? No. You say that you know it was done during the last war? And there would therefore be nothing to prevent it from being done during the cold war? It is quite possible. And there is nothing to prevent it being d_ne even at the present moment? Correct. And you have never heard of it being done, at the present moment or during the last few years? COURT ADJOURNS. COURT RESUMES. (No. 2 Accused back in Court).

5 GSRHARDUS PAULUS VAN PaPENDORP, under former oath : CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BERRANGE CONTINUED : You have indicated that in the Union of South Africa facilities for tapping telephones were available. You told us that this was done during the war. Is that correct? You also indicated to us that a number of subterfuges were resorted to by the Special Branch for the purpose to ascertain what went on at meetings held by these organisations? Correct. Is there any reason as far as you can see why the subterfuge or why the technique of tapping telephones should not be used for that purpose too? Seeing that the facilities were available? It is possible that they were used. I did not use them myself. I am not suggesting that you did. I h:.ve never yet suggested that you did. Answer a simple question. It is only one of a different number of techniques, is that not so? All this is done in respect of organisations which haven't been banned or outlawed, correct? Organisations which are functioning openly and legally. Correct? I only know of one organisation that was banned. And that is? The Communist Party was banned. Nobody mentioned the Communist Party. I am talking about the organisations which we have been dealing with. You have been so good as to agree with me, can aptly be called progressive organisations. So all this was done in respect oi organisa tions of that nature which were not banned or outlawed? '.Vhich were functioning in terms of the laws of this country, perfectly legally? Correct? Before I pass from this, may I ask you whether in the performance of you duties as a member of th^ Special

6 Branch you have ever been detailed to make similar investigations in regard to organisations such as for instance the Broederbond? No. Do you know of anybody that has? No. Did you attend the Congress of the People at Kliptown? I did. And at the Congress of the People at Kliptown, a Peace Pavilion was erected adjacent to the platform, adjacent to the stand I should say, on which the Congress of the People meeting was being held, not so? There were some tables on which there were Pe:.ce Council literature. And that was quite separate from the Congress of the People? It was inside the area reserved for delegates. On a separate site? I can't say a separate site. I am nut talking about a site in terms of land area, but a separate place, if you prefer it that way? Yes, it was not on the platform. And at that Pavilion or exhibition, there were distributed pamphlets dealing with peace? Correct. Across the road, was there not a pavilion erected by the Peace Council? I did not see a Peace Council Pavilion there. Dealing with The attendance at meetings of the Peace Council, you attended a meeting of the Peace Council as late as last year, did you not? Not last year. If I can remember now. You had a v..ry enjoy able afternoon, I believe? You know who Mozart is, don't you? Yes, that is correct. In the Duncan Hall... You sat right through the afternoon listening to a Mozart concert? Correct. That was at a Peace Council meeting. It was a meeting organised by the Peace Council? The Transvaal

7 Peaee Council, yes. I want to gut one thin, quite clear. Are you suggesting that you yourself have any knowledge whatsoever of meetings of the Peace Council, ever being held behind closed doors? By that I mean meetings at which you or other members of the public Wore not allowed, other than of course Committee Meetings or Executive Meetings, because naturally nobody would be allowed other than the members themselves? '"ould you please tell His Worship the occasion and the date of such a meeting? I think it was in There were pamphlets distributed. I obtained one of them in town. Obtained one from? Somebody distributing some pamphlets. And what was the nature of the meeting? This was announced to be a public meeting of the Transvaal Peace Council. It was to be held at 4-a Kort Street, Johannesburg. I went to that particular meeting on that night, and we was ordered to leave the hall. Who is we? I went there accompanied by some other men, I know Detective Sergeant... Members of the police? We pointed out that it was advertised as a public meeting. How many persons were; there? There were about one hundred and fifty persons. Then the meeting was closed, and everybody was ordered to leave the hall, and then some people stood at the entrance and announced into the street that only people who were members of the Congresses and the Peace Council were allowed to enter the hall. And then we remained outside. And the people went into the hall and the doors were closed. What was the object of the meeting? The objects

8 were something about discussing troops being sent to Kenya. Who were the persons that remained outside? I remained outside... With your colleagues? And three or four other people. I remember one was a European lady, who enquired from us where this meeting was to be held. We told her it was upstairs. She went up the stairs and told us when she came back that the doors were closed. She eventually left. The facts of the matter are as follows, are they not? It was only when it was ascertained that there were members of the police present that exception was taken to their presence, was it not? Yes, that is possibly the position. Prior thereto there was no objection to members of the public being there? No, not that I know of. But when they saw that it was a police party that was attending, exception was taken to your presence, is that not so? Correct. At that time you had been attending a number of meetings already? Making notes? I did very seldom make notes at Peace Council meetings. But you had been, you and other members of the police had been making notes? And if you attended a meeting because you were in fact interested in the meeting and not in your capacity as a police officer, would you have been excluded, do you think? I did explain that that particular evening. What did you explain, that you wgre there as a member of the public and not in your capacity as a policeman? I told them that I was a policeman but that I was also interested in the subject. Is that what you tried to get them to believe?

9 And you w t r= surprised that they didn't accept your explanation? Nor am I. I was not really surprised. What type of literature has to your knowledge been distributed by the South African -Peace Council? Usually documents, appeals of the World Peace Council, resolutions of the World Peace Council, Appeals for what? Appeals to... these documents were handed in here in Court, and could be produced. I am asking you what type of literature was usually distributed. They were appeals for peace, were they not? That was the whole basic theme? Anything else? Pamphlets.. Pamphlets which also contained appeals for peace? Correct. Disarmament? Banning of atomic weapons? Correct. Banning of nuclear tests? Correct. That is the only type of literature that has ever been distributed by the South African Peace Council, is that no so? The only type, yes. That youhave come across? Correct. Have you come across any literature distributed by the South African Peace Council which was an appeal for the setting up of a Communist system? No direct appeal for the setting up of the Communist system. I am not going to overlook the word 'direct'. Have you ever come across any literature which made any appeal or suggested the establishment of a Communist system or a Communist state, direct or indirect? going to ask you to produce it? If you s^cy there was, I am I came across a certain document. The Peace Council and the Congress of the People. I don't understand you, and I am afraid I don't hear you? A document setting out the relationship between the Peace Councils and the Congress of the People. And you suggest because this document set out the

10 relationship between the Congress of the People and the Peace Council th.it it was therefore a Communist document? I did not suggest that. '"hat did this document s y was the relationship between the Peace Council and the Congress of the People? It was giving its support to the Congresses. To the Congress of the People? To the Congresses forming the Congress of the People. For what reason did it support it. much you read and studied this document? I want to know how There were various reasons given. May I give you the reasons and you can tell us whether you agree with it. The Peace Council held that any form of racial division which encouraged race hatred is a threat to peace. You have already told us that, haven't you? And therefore the Peace Council said that it would be prepared to su port any organisation which had as one of its aims the abolishment of any form of racial division, ^ot so? Correct. And it is in that sense that the South African Peace Council gave its support TO the Congresses because they avowedly wanted to get rid of any form of race discrimination. Correct? The document was handed in at this Court. And it would be better if you can get the document out and read it to the Court. I am asking you whether that is correct? I cannot say... I am not talking about the document, I am talking about the policy of the South African Peac.. Council, that it would give its support to any organisation which had as one of its aims the abolishment of any form of race discrimination. That has been one of its aims all the way through, has it not? Correct. Because it said that race discrimination was a threat

11 to peace and might lead to war. That has be c n its professed aim, has it not? Yes, that is one of its aims. I am going back to my question again. Oxher than the distribution of documents dealing with peace, the necessity of peace, disarmament, banning of atomic weapons, criticism of racial discrimination, because it is a threat to peace. Have you found any document distributed by the Peace Council which indicates its desire to si up a Communist state or a Communist system or Communist ideology? Direct or indirect? I can only give my opinion. I want you to give facts. Have you come across any such document, because if you have I would be very glad if you could produce it and then we'll know exactly where we are? According to documents of the World Peace Council, which I obtained at meetings of the Transvaal and South African Peace Councils, according to the contents of those documents, I am of the opinion that it was advancing the objects of Communism. Because they called for peace, disarmament, the banning of atomic weapons and because they criticised any form of racial discrimination? Can you produce any such document? No. I only want to know because in one stage of these proceedings we were told that the South African Peace Council is the mouthpiece of Communism and distributed Communist literature. Now in making enquiries about the World Peace Council as you told us you have done, can you tell us where its headquarters are and have be c n? Where were its headquarters originally? In France. In Paris, and thereafter? They had a Conference in Vienna... I am not asking you wher they held Conferences. It had Conferences if you want to know, in Paris and in Prague,

12 in London, in Stockholm, in Warsaw and in Geneva and in Berlin and in Copenhagen and in Helsinki, Vienna, Oslo and Budapest. Don't let us worry about the Conferences. I an asking you where its headquarters are and where they have been? I know they have been in France. In Paris, And..? But where they are now, I don't know. Thereafter the headquarters were for a short period in Prague, were they not? Or don't you know that? It is possible. Don't you know that thereafter ttu headquarters were moved to Vienna where they are at present ::nd Where they have been for the last two or three years? Don't you know that? --- No, I didn't know that. Have you anything whereby you could support any suggestion that the World Peace Council had its headquarters in Communist countries? No. Because that was also a suggestion that was made in these proceedings. I just want to deal with this meeting of the 21st August, You know the meeting I am referring to? I renumber. It was held at the Trades Hall, and that was on the eve of the Conference? Correct. You attended that meeting yourself? I did. Did you notice people coming in the hall? Did you notice people who were arriving? I did. It is only a very small point, but it's a point in regard to which we would like to have come accuracy. You indicated that according to your notes Mr. L. Bernstein attended that meeting? Yes, that is correct. I haven't got a notes here... I can assure you that that is in your notes. I want to suggest to you that the truth of the matter is this, is

13 that Mr. Bernstein brought his wife, that is Miss Hilda Watts to this meeting by car, dropped her there and then left. Would you be prepared to deny that? No, I am not prepared to deny that. Of course, as a police officer, you know that it is y.ur duty to arrest or take criminal proceedings against anyone who you See is committing a crime or breaking the law? I take it that you would scrupulously carry out your duty? Members of the Special Branch are issued with information indicating what persons have been banned from attending meetings, are they not? I t; ke it that if you saw any individual who had so been banned attending a meeting in contravention of his ban, you would take steps against him? Correct. Dealing with this meeting of the 15th November, 1953? I wonder whether the witness could be given his transcript. Exhibit G I would like you to refer to the speech made by Robert Resha and I would like you to refer to the latter portion of the speech, right towards the end, where the following appears: 'For this reason we must fight for peace. Peace must not only be preached, but it must be more practical'. Have you got that part? I beg your pardon, it is the 21st August, That would be Exhibit G Have you got that? 'Peace must not only be preached, but it must be more practical! There will not be peace in South Africa, unless all people, Black Yellow and White live equally'? These notes were taken by you in longhand, were they not? No interpreters were used at this meeting, were they? I think there were interpreters. Do you know it? I am not quite sure. Would you agree with me if I suggest to you that it

14 is a matter of complete impossibility to get down anything like everything that was said by the speaker? Correct. Quite impossible? As a matter of fact, the last witness I cross-examined, Mr. Viviers said he would be prepared to agree that he couldn't get down more than five per cent of what was said. However, we will let it go at that. So there is quite a lot that you must leave out from time to time? The speaker, having said that there will not be peace in South Africa unless all the people, Black, White and Yellow live equally, then went on to say the following ; 'Africans, through no cause of their own will always regard the Europeans to be against them and Europeans, for no cause of their own, will always regard the Africans as inferior'? Correct. If I suggest to you that what the speaker then went on to say was to indicate that therefore it must be their duty to try and break down this feeling between Africans and Europeans, you wouldn't be prepared to disagree with that? That is what I conveyed from the speech. I don't know whether that is what you conveyed, but I sm putting it to you that that is what the speaker conveyed? Yes, I agree with that. When you dealt with the meeting of the 15th November, 1953s I notice that when English was interpreted into what you call Bantu, you made a note to that effect? You did that in regard to every speech you gave evidence on the 15th November, 1953? where an interpretation took place you indicated that in y-ur notes? Why? Ijthought it necessary. That is what I also thought. You have no such note of any interpretation having taken place, it means that there was no interpretation, surely. If you thought it necessary? As far as I can remember, the meeting on the e/e of the Congress,

15 on the 21st August,..» BY THE COURT : Well, generally, the suggestion is that if there is no reference to an interpreter, then can it be said that no interpreter was used, if you notes have no reference to an interpreter? It is difficult to say that. I cannot say that. BY MR. BERRANGE : But you tell His Worship one moment that you make a record of this fact because you think it necessary, and if you think it necessary, I take it you do agree? What I know definitely... Why don't you answer my question? I am trying... May I just ask you one question, then you can explain as much as you like. If you think a thing to be necessary, do you try and carry that out? Now you thought it necessary to indicate such occasions in your notes, such occasions in which an interpreter was used. You told us that? Therefore I am putting it to you, and I am repeating that which His Worship said you a moment ago, that wher^ you have not indicated the use of an interpreter in your notes, having regard to the fact that you do so ordinarily because you think it necessary, then it is fair to assume that no interpreter was used? I cannot say that it is fair to assume that. Do you think it necessary or don't you think it necessary? I think it necessary. And would there be any reason for you not to do that which you think is necessary? If I did definitely know at that stage that these notes were to be used in a Court, I would definitely have recorded that. That is not an answer to my question?

16 BY THE COURT : Perhaps the witness could explain what he meant by saying - I think this is what he said in answer to the question where you did not indicate in your notes that an interpreter was used, that it is not fair to assume that no interpreter was used. Why did you make that statement? It was not a S U d nding rule.. No, you told us what your practice was. That you would mention the fact. Now why wouldn't it be fair to assume that if the fact was not mentioned, that no interpreter was used. That is your answer to the question? I was in a habit. Where a speaker addresses a meeting in Bantu, and its is translated into English, where I do not understand the Bantu language, then I used to make a note of that regularly. BY MR. BERRANGE : You used to make a note that an interpreter had been used? Yes, because... And the other way around? If I know it comes through an interpreter... Where the speaker spoke in English, which you do understand, and that was interpreted into one of the African languages, was it your habit to make a note of that too? It could have been omitted. On the 15th November, 1953* you attended a meeting? Lindeque Ngakane spoke in English and this was interpreted into what you call Bantu. And you made a note of that? Correct. Why? Albert Kuschlick spoke in English and it was interpreted into what you call Bantu, and you ma:de a note of that. Lionel Bernstein, similarly spoke in English and his words were interpreted. You made a note of that. Desai similarly spoke in English and his words were interpreted, and you made a hote of that. The same with Charles Feinstein and the same with Alfred Hutchinson. In fact nearly every

17 speaker who spoke at that meeting, you indicated that his speech had been interpreted from English into vernacular? That is correct. Why? So it was quite apparently your habit, and that is the initial question that I put to you, to indicate where an interpreter had been used. And you agreed with that and if you want to withdraw that statement, I'll sit down? If I did not mention in my notes that it was interpreted, then I am not in a position to answer the question whether an interpreter was definitely used or not. BY THE COURT : Why do you say that, that is what I am trying to find out from you? Are you uncertain about it? I am not uncertain. If the fact is not mentioned, why...? Because for this reason that the meeting of the 15th November, I would have regarded as a more important meeting as the one on the 21st August. I don't understand the logic of that. The question is quite a simple one. I think it is fairly put to you, that you were in the habit of mentioning the fact that an interpreter was used? Now if the point is put in the reverse, if no interpreter was used, I mean if your notes indicate an absence of a reference to it, can it be fairly assumed that no interpreter was used. I am talking generally, not about any particular meeting. You said no, that was not a fair assumption, but why not. For what reason wouldn't it be a fair assumption. Would you sometimes leave out that fact? Why? Because it simply was not recorded. Why did you sometimes not make a note of it, that is what we want to know. Why would you sometimes fail to make a note about it, the fact that an interpreter was used? That

18 is your suggestion. Now why? It could h ve been forgotten. No, no. Is that your answer then? It could have been forgotten? Do you incan that it doesn't always follow because there is an absence of reference to interpreters, that an interpreter was not used, because you might have forgotten to make a note about the fact? It did happen that I attended meetings that I didn't even make a single note. BY ME. BERRANGE : are talking about meetings in regard to whiqh you did make notes and those in regard to which you made very full notes. You say it could have happened because you might have forgotten? Yes, it is possible. You might have forgotten that which you say is necessary? It is possible. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS. RE-EXAMINED BY THE P.P. : You told the Court you completed forms to become a member of the South African Peace Council, is that correct? Did you hear again from them or not, apart from literature, did you hear anything else about your application? No, it was only the news bulletin. News bulletins were sent to you, is that all? Did you attend many of their meetings or not? I did. As a member or as a member of the police? I usually attended as a member of the police. Can you suggest any reason why they excluded you from at least one of their meetings? They told you toleave the hall or the place? BY THE COURT : The question might be framed fifferently because he may only think that they excluded him for this or that reason. This may not be evidence. Did they indicate any

19 reason for excluding you? BY THE P.P. : Perhaps you misbehaved? Did you? No, members of the police force were not welcome there. BY THE COURT s Did the people at that meeting offer any reason for excluding you and the other members of the police, or did they merely exclude you so far as you were aware because you Were policemen? NO FURTHER QUESTIONS. ISAAC SHARP, duly sworn; ( ) EXAMINED BY THE P.P. : You have already given evidence, is that correct? Correct. Did you make notes of a meeting held on the 29th May, 1955? I did. What meeting was it? Federation of South African Women. Where was it held? It was held in the Trades Hall. Did you enter the hall or did you merely keep observation? There is nothing to indicate in my notes that I entered the hall. I may have, but I was perhaps asked to leave the hall. Did you make a list of persons whom you saw there, entering the hall? I did. Will you go through them and mention the names of Accused persons? Cleopas Sibande (69); Mrs. Helen Joseph (13); Joe Matlou (38); Is th..t all? That completes the list. You hand in your notes? I do. EXHIBIT G. 774? I do. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.

20 ZACHARIA HLENGWA, duly sworn; EXAMINED 3Y THE P.P. : (E. Mazwai - Int. Zulu-Eng.) (1.9.56) Have you given evidence before? Did you make notes in respect of a Conference held on the 1st September, 1956? I did. You h^ve your notes before you? '/hat Conference was it? African National Congress. Where was it held? Bantu Social Centre, Durban. What time did the Conference start? 2 p.m. Until when? 5.30 p.m. Who was the Chairman? Stephen Dhlamini. Is he one of the Accused? Yes (128). About how many persons attended the Conference? 45 Males and 40 females. Will you start to read your notes, The meeting of the African National Congress', read from there. Read from your notes? "Meeting of the African National Congress on the 1/9/56 At the Bantu Mens Social Centre, Beatrice Street, Durban. Chairman. Was opened at 2 p.m. by Stephen Dhlamini, acting Calling upon the Reverend Sikakane to give a short prayer and Nkosi Sikelele Afrika. He then made an announcement that we will have in the meeting president Chief A. J. Luthuli." Is he one of the Accused? Yes (132). Read on? "Then Chief Luthuli came in and the Chair called upon Chief Luthuli to speak." Did Luthuli then speak? "Luthuli xhen said, I am happy to b~ here today because I have been banned for a year and again for two years. I can see that you men are backward and that the women have fought a true battle which has made a sign to show that we are at the black spot of times and that this sign, you women have shown at a time we struggle for freedom. Today we have been sent out by the Government going

21 about in towns and country telling the people that this Government is doing this and that good for the Africans, and / yet there is nothing yet we have seen, but we are looking with surprise to this Government making all the laws stiffer and stiffer for the Africans. I know Churchill did everything with a few to stop Hitler's armies»?which he intended to destroy democracy. I Christians must be firm and stand together with the African National Congress in the struggle for freedom. I thank you, Mr. Chairman, for giving me time to express myself as I have just said now." The Mr. P. H. Simelane spoke. Is he one of the Accused? Yes (150). Read what he said? "In this Conference today we have delegates from many parts of Natal representing branches and they are seventeen altogether and when time comes to vote we will not allow non-delegates to vote, and he continued saying this Conference has here to finish what they did not touch on at Pietermaritzburg, like the resolutions and changing of office bearers. 3. Dhlamini, Chairmah, said ; It is not yet time to discuss anything but we will give you time to tell us what you have been doing in the past year organising for the A.N.C. Then Mr. A. B. Ngcobo stood up and started up an argument about Yakayibambe (Youth League), its relations with the A.N.C. constitutionally and why he was refused to address the Conference at Pietermaritzburg. " Do you know this person, A. B. Ngcobo? I do. Is he one of the Accused? Yes (143). Yes, read one? "Chief Luthuli says please do not disturn us, we want to finish our work today. Continued and said, we are not the first to fight for freedom. The olden Zulu chiefs fought for freedom. Stephen Dhlamini explained that at Merebank its difficult to organise the A.N.C. there because the superintendent does not allow the A.N.C. branch k 1

22 to hold meeting inside the hostel, added that Lamontville branch is dead. There is no following. Mr. A. Nene explained his difficulty in organising at Two Sticks visiting people at their houses. Will you omit the rest of what was said. Do you have a list of names of persons who attended the Conference? Is that correct? Will you go through them and mention the names of Accused persons? S. Dhlamini. You have already mentioned him. Only mention those whom you have not mentioned? A. Gumede (129); D. Nyemba (144); P. G. Mei (135); The next day, the 2nd September, 1956, did the proceedings continue? did not take notes. The following day I went back, but I Zulu was the other detective who took notes. You hand in your notes EXHIBIT G. 775? I do. At the Conference on the 1st September, 1956, did you obtain that booklet? I did. I b uaht this. What is it called. This will be G What is it called? Congress Voice. And you hand thc.t in? I do. CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. BERRANGL : According to your notes this meeting started at 2 o'clock and finished at 5.30? That is correct. That is three and a half hours? And you have been in the witness box and you have read out your notes and that has taken you thirteen minutes? That is so. That is all that you were able to record of that which was said at this meeting? minutes to read out? That which has taken you thirteen Yes, that is what I wrote down and that is the purpose for what I gone there.

23 That is all you v/ere able to record over a three and a half hour meeting? Is that so? I wanted to write down only what was important what they said. Not anything that was being said at the meeting. You wanted to write down only what you considered to be important? Is that so? That is correct. When you attend a meeting of this sort what is the type of thing which you consider to be important? When they advertise a meeting and they stated on the circular, that is what I look for. What did they advertise at this meeting? They said it was a big meeting that all members from branches all over Natal will attend. Delegates. Did they advertise at the meeting that Ngcobo stood up and was going to start an argument? No. That is what you have written down? Yes, that is what Ngcobo said, and when he said th^t there was trouble in the meeting, and then I wrote that down. You say that you go to a meeting and you write down only what you consider to be important? Is that what you said? I write the subject of which they speak. Answer my question? "'ell, answer it? I heard your question, I said I write down what they had called this meeting for. Did you or did you not tell His Worship that when you go to a meeting you write down what is important. Did you say that or did not? Yes, that is so, und also what they had called the particular meeting for. Who decides what is important? You? No, I do not judge anything there. I just write down what they say is in connection with the meeting. Who decides what is important, is my question?

24 BY THE COURT s That is important enough for you "co record. Who decides that? When they discuss and I listen and then I say this is what they have called this meeting for, and that is what I write. BY MR. BE-RANGE : You decide what is important? That is in connection with the meeting. Do you decide what is important? Don't waste our time, please. BY THE COURT : That is, he says, in connection with a meeting. What we want to know, do you decide what is important enough for you to record? I write down what the speaker says. BY MR. BERRANGl : Are you going to answer this question? I put it to you you don't want to answer. When His Worship puts it to you, you still don't want to answer? The question was put to me, do I decide as to whether I must write down this. "/hat is your answer to that? I say I decide, when xhe speaker speaks, then I write. You decide what to put down? Yes, what the speaker says I decide whether I must write it down, and then I write it down. So you decide what is important? Yes in connection with what they had called the meeting for. Who told you what to look for? Nobody tells me. I get the circular, I see what they are going to speak about. I still want to ask you what sort of thing do you consider to be important? Perhaps I could put it in a more direct way. If the speaker got up and said : 'Look, we are living in a bad country and in a bad system and it is time we took up our sticks and our assegais and we went and upset this

25 Government 1. Would you consider that important? I would write that down, and I hav- written that down on many occasions. Would you consider it important? And if a speaker said that we must see to it that the Black and the White people in this country should live together peacefully, would you consider that important? Yes and I have got that in many meetings. And if a speaker said i 'We must bring about a change, in this Government, but we mustn't use any force or violence,' would you consider that important? Yes I would write that what is said, then those in authority would have to decide. Have you heard that on many occasions? Yes, I have got that in many speeches. Many speeches of the African National Congress? Yes, when the African National Congress says we do not want any violence, we want to live peacefully, I have written that down many, many occasions. You will agree of course that your notes of what took place during these three and a half hours do not contain anything like everything that was said? I do not know, but what I had is contained in my notes. Answer my question? BY THE COURT : ' Let him repeat the question that is put to him. What is the question? The question is what is contained in the notes, there is nothing what was said at the meeting. No, it is not all that was said. You recorded much less than what was said. Is that right? That is correct. COURT COURT ADJOURNS. RESUMES. (Medical Certificate handed in on behalf of Dr. Mothale No No. 77, H. Tshabalala is back as well as No. 2, M. Asmal).

26 ZACHARIAH HI.SNGWA, under former oath; CROSS-EXAMINAT J CN BY MR. BERRANGE CONTINUED : '"'ill yo - make it clear to the witness that I am still referring to the meeting of the 1st September, 1956, at the Bantu Men's Social Centre. When he went to this meeting, did he sit down? Yes, I sat down. Whereabout? Right at the back of the audience. At the back of the hall? Of the audience. Were people sitting on both sides of him? Yes, there were people sitting on both sides of me and whilst I was in the course of writing, some oth.r people came and sat behind me. So the people who were sitting next to y^u, at any rate, were in a position to see you writing? Did they say anything about that? No. They were quite content to let you write? When you went into this hall, what were you carrying? Anything? I was only carrying a very small suitcase which contained writing paper. I take it that you were writing on this suitcase? I cannot recall that very well, but what I know is that in the papers there is generally a cardboard piece that is in between the sheets of paper so you can write. Were you furnished with any documents by your superior officers? No documents, except instructions. Instructions aren't documents. "That do you mean by instructions? Do you mean verbal instructions? That is correct, verbal instructions. Did your superior officers not give you any paper? They need not give me paper, but there are papers on which to write in the office which I took. One of those papers was the paper on which you made your notes? That is so.

27 When you made these notes, did you leave any blank spaces? - - No, I do not leave any blank spaces. As a person speaks I write on. There is a continuity? That is correct. Don't you leave any blank spaces which you fill in afterwards? No. I leave no blank spaces which I fill in afterwards. After I have written, I take that in, take that paper on which I have written and hand it in at the office. You say that you leave no blank spaces for the purpose of filling in any items at a later stage? No. I leave nothing like that. Nothing at all? Nothing at all. Just have a look at G Do you say that those are the notes that you made at the time of the meeting in the hall in which the meeting was held? Yes, but I was not the person who wrote this. I did not write G That is not my handwriting. BY THE COURT : Forget about the number of the exhibit. those notes at the time the meeting was on? Did you ma^e BY MR. BERRANGE : Thoseare the notes on that document? Yes, all this is my own handwriting which I did at the meeting. You say that the letters there, G. 775, that is not in your handwriting? That is correct. You are telling His Worship that that which is written on that document, G. 775, was written by you at the meeting and whilst the meeting was in progress? That is so. Before the meeting terminated, you had no idea of course how long this meeting was going to last? I had had that from the announcement made that the meeting would last until half past five, from the permit which they had been

28 given. From the pamphlet? From the permit which they had been given. Who had been given? They apply to the Secretary - to the Town Clerk to hold a meeting and then if that is allowed, then they are given a permit on which the time is stated. On which the time is stated daring which the meeting can be allowed to continue? And that meeting may continue as long as the permit authorises it to continue or it may stop before the time which is authorised on the permit for the meeting to continue? That is correct. Of course when you go to the meeting, at its inception, you have no idea whether the meeting is going to last for the full time in respect of which the permit is applicable, or whether it will finish before that? That is correct. I am going to suggest to you that your evidence to the effect that you made those notes contemporaneously, that is whilst the meeting is in progress, is untrue? I am going to suggest to you that these notes, that document Exhibit G. 775, is a report which you made up and put in after the meeting had concluded? Do you agree? No. I do not agree. I would be arrested if I would go and write in the office. All this what I do, I do at the meeting. I don't see why you should, but I am not interested. Now then, have a look at your notes, G First one is 'date '. That is the first entry, is it not? That is so. 'Meeting of African N/Congress Conference'. That is your next entry? 'Held at Bantu Mens Social Centre, Beatrice St ree t 1. That is your next entry? 'Time meeting actually starts - 2 p.m.' That is your

29 next entry? 'Time meeting stops ' That is your next entry? 'Chairman - Mr. Stephen Dhlamini (Acting)'. That is your next entry? Correct. When did you fill in the words 'Time meeting stops p.m.'. "Tien did you fill in the words '5.30 p.m.'? After the meeting had finished, or did you do it at the time that the meeting started? meeting had been closed down. Just about the time when the The time was going towards Look at the end of your notes. At the back page. 'Then the meeting closed at 5.30 p.m. singing Nkosi Sikelele i Afrika'. Have yoa got that? That is at the end of your notes. Which did you write first, that which appears at the end of your notes, namely 'Then the meeting closed at 5.30 p.m.' or that which appears at the beginning of your notes 'Time the meeting stops p.m.'. Which did you write first? The thing that I wrote first is 'Time meeting stops at 5.30 p.m.'. You wrote that first? That is at the beginning of your notes? Did you write that in before the meeting had stopped? Yes, before, because at that time I had already heard that there was going to be another meeting at which we members of the Police Force would not be allowed. That appears at the end of your notes. Did you write that in, that which appears at the beginning of your notes before Stephen Dhlamini had opened the meeting or after? No, I waited for him to open the meeting and then I wrote. Did you write it before Simelane spoke? Yes, I did. Are you quite sure of that? You wrote that in before Simelane spoke? Did you write it in before Chief Luthuli 1

30 spoke? I wrote that when Dhlamini opened the meeting. Did you write it before Chief Luthuli spoke? Then the position is this. According to your notes, we find the following. After having given th.se details, they start off in the following way ; 'The meeting of the African National Congress on the at the Bantu Men's Social Centre, Beatrice Street, Durban, was opened by Stephen Dhlamini, acting Chairman calling upon the Reverend Sikakane to give a short prayer and Nkosi Jikelele Afrika. He then made an announcement that we will have in the meeting president Chief A. J. Luthuli. Then Chief Luthuli came in and the Chair called upon him to speak'. And it was at that stage that you write in that the meeting had stopped at 5.30 p.m.? Is that your evidence? Is that so or not? I do not understand your question, becase that does not appear on my notes. What does not appear on your notes? Did you or did you you entered that not tell His Worship a few moments ago that/the meeting had stopped at 5.30 p.m. before Chief Luthuli spoke. Did you say that or did you not? What I remember what I said was this. When Stephen Dhlamini opened the meeting, I started to write this. Lid you or did you not say that you entered the fact that the meeting stopped at 5.30 p.m. before Chief Luthuli spoke. Did yo\i say that or did you not? 'Time meeting stopped p.m.' I wrote after Chief Luthuli had already spoken because I had already heard from the announcement made that the meeting was about to close. Would you mind answering my question? Did you or did you not tell His Worship that you made that entry to the effect that the meeting stopped at 5-30 p.m. before Chief Luthuli spoke. Did you say that or did you not? I do not dispute if I did say that, but if I did say it, then it was a slip of the tongue. 1

31 A slip of the tongue. You mean you found the difficulty in which you placed yourself. Is that it? Did you or did you not say that you made that note, namely that the meeting stopped at 5.30 p.m. before Simelane spoke? Did you s^ty that? I do not remember having said that. But you did say it. Was it true or false? Was it true or false is all I want to know? It is a mistake if that is what I said. It is a mistake if you said it? How do you come to make these two mistakes one after the other? Would you be so good as to tell His Worship when it was that you did in fact make this note, namely that the meeting stopped at 5.30 p.m. I am referring to the note recorded at the beginning of your notes. r 'hen did you in fact make that note? I wrote it at the meeting having this form, because I got the form from the office. When did you fill that in. That is all I want to know. I don't want to know whether you brought it from the office? In. the meeting. I kn w you did in the meeting, but when, at what stage? After Dhlamini has spoken. But this 5.30 that you are referring to, that I made, was the close of the meeting. When did you fill it in? When did you write the words '5.30 p.m.'? That appears on page 1? I wouldn't be able to remember quite correctly, but I think it was 5 o'clock. BY THE COURT : What time did the meeting end? Half past five. BY MR. BERRANG5 : " nd new you tell us that at 5 o'clock you wrote in that the meeting stopped at 5.30 p.m. That is your evidence? Yes, because they had not yet finished talking. But you nevertheless at 5 o'clock wrote that the meeting had stopped at 5.30?

32 Let me put something else to you. Do you remember telling His Worship that you wrote these notes consecutively and with continuity and that you never left any spaces nor did you go back and fill in any spaces? Do you remember saying that? I do. How did you then come in to fill in the words '5.30 p.m. ' on the fourth line - on the fifth line of page 1 if you didn't leave a space? I left that space open purposely, because at that stage I did not know what time the meeting was closing. Nor did you know at 5 o'clock. Be that as it may. You left that space purposely? And you filled it in later on? That is correct, after I heard when the meeting will be closed. So that was the third mistake you made today when you said that you left no spaces nor did you fill in anything afterwards? I admit that, but I meant that... You admit what? Another mistake? I thought you meant with the correspondence. The correspondence? I took you right through this, I started at page 1, I asked you whether you came armed with these forms and you said yes. at the beginning, you said yes. I asked you whether you started I asked you whether you went on with continuity, you said yes. I asked you whether you left any spaces and filled them in later on, and you said no? So this is another mistake? Yes, I would say that is another mistake, but what I had in mind was that you meant about what was being said... Yes, three mistakes in half an hour. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS. NO RE-EXAMINATION. EXAMINATION BY P.P. CONTINUED : (2.9.56) Did you make notes of the same Conference held on the

33 nd September, 1956? Yes, I did. I see now I had made a mistake at first. I can see my notes now. Where was the Conference held? Bantu Men's Social Centre, Durban. What time did it commence? a.m. Until when? 5-45 p.m. Who was the Chairman? A. Nyembe. How many persons were present? 45 men, 13 females. Will you read your notes, starting from the beginning? "Meeting. Lady Chairman. Miss A. Nyembe. Acting. Reverend Sikakane for a prayer and a short sermon. On the stage before the Chairman starting the matter, there were sitting there S. Dhlamini... Is he one of the Accused? Yes (128). Yes? The Reverend Sikakane, Chief Luthuli... Chief Luthuli, is he one of the Accused? Yes (132). The next? A. Nyembe, P. H. Simelane (15); A. Gumede.. Is he one of the Acc.ised? Yes (129). Read on? The Chairman starts talking, he says I am sorry to have been absent yesterday. It wasn't my intention at all. The Chairman called upon the Secretary, A. Gumede, to read the minutes of last Conference, October, 1955 at Nene's hall, Two Sticks, Cato Manor, Durban. Minutes... That person mentioned, A. Gumede, is that the same person as the one you have mentioned before? Read on? Minutes passed as correct unanimously. Then question time about Vakayibambe Youth League. The Chairman requested the audience to leave the minute to the Executive and about a river at Cato Manor Umkumbani, that there was a Committee appointed to investigate how it could be covered because it was a danger to people living there, that is on health conditions. The Two Sticks Branch will write to the City Health Department, Durban. audience about the constitution. t Chief Luthuli explained to That a special Conference

34 will be held to discuss the constitution of A.N.C. in October of this year^ Mr. D. H. Simelane speaks about... Is Simelane the same person whom you mentioned before? Will you omit what he said. Then you have a list of names, 1. Manana P.S. Just shortly, what list of names is that? I would be able to tell you if I had read through this. Yes, all right, read then from where you stopped? "P. S. Simelane speaks about the A.N.C. as an organisation which is now requested to work together with Trade Union organisations. The matter left to the Executive to discuss and a report will come in the next meeting. National Executive requested to make clear or known what kind of uniform for men and women should wear when at such Cohference. Speaker suggests that Natal must have Committee to discuss this question." Oh yes, this is the Committee members to discuss the question of uniforms. To go into the question of uniforms, is That correct? Read the hames? Manana P.S.; Is he one of the Accused? Yes (133). Yes? Miss May Sitole. F. Mkize... Leave out the other names. Omit the rest and start there 'Ngcobo starts an argument...' just a few lines lower down? Mr. A. B. Ngcobo starts an argument. BY THE COURT ; Is he one of the Accused? (143). Is that the same man who had an argument the previous day? BY THE P.P. : Yes? Mr. A. B. Ngcobo starts an argument and the President requests Mr. Gumede to read No. 2 Resolution and he stops arguments. Calls up A. Gumede again to read them

35 three resolutions. P. G. Mei speaks about No. 3 resolution. P. G. Mei, is he one of the Accused? He is (135). "P. G. Mei speaks about No. 3 resolution and he says a time will come when we shall have a united A.N.C. without traitors amongst us, then we will make our chances to get freedom near us..." Will you omit the rest of what was said, and look at the end of your notes. You have a list of names of persons. Is that a list of names of persons who attended the Conference? Yes, the Executive. Executive of what? A.N.C. Natal Branch. Will you read the names? Chief A. J. Luthuli, Mr. M. B. Yengwa, Dr. W. Z. Conco.. Is Dr. Conco one of the Accused? Yes (127). And what was the name you read before that? M. B. Yengwa. Is he one of the Accused? Yes (151). Yes? P. H. Simelane. You have already mentioned him. Is he the same person you mentioned before? Yes (150). S. Dhlamini... He is also a person whom you mentioned before? Yes (128). Read on? G. S. A. Nyembe. Miss D. Nyembe.. Is she one of the Accused? Yes (144); M. Sitole, M. Mohale, A, Nene, M. Mabida, A. Gumede... Is he one of the Accused? Yes (129). You hand in your notes EXHIBIT G. 777? I do. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS. (Int. E. Mazwai - Zulu-Eng.) PAUL ZULU, duly sworn; ^ g ^^^ EXAMINED BY THE P.P. : You have already given evidence? I have. On the 9th August, 1956, were you on duty at the Union Buildings, Pretoria? I was.

36 Was there a procession? Do you know what procession it was? Women's procession. Did you make a list of names of persons whom you recognised taking part in the procession? Will you go through your list you made - did you make that list at the time? You have your list before you? Will you go through the list and mention the names of Accused persons? Those whom you notices there? Only mention the names of Accused persons? Dorothy Nyembe (144)5 Is that all? Is that the only person mongst the Accused? (Notes handed in Exhibit G. 778). EXAMINATION BY P.P. CONTINUED : ( ) Did you also make notes in respect of a meeting held on the 11th August, 1956? You have your notes before you? What meeting was it? Federation of '"omen. Do you know what organisation held the meeting? Refer to your notes. Read it as you noted it down? It is not properly written here. I will read it just as it is. Read as you noted it down? "The Federation of South Africa Women". Where was this meeting held? In the Trades Hall. Where? Johannesburg. Did you again make a list of names of persons whom you saw at the meeting? I did. Will you go through your list and mention the names of Accused persons? Dorothy Nyembe (144). Is that the only Accused that you saw there? You hand in your notes EXHIBIT G. 779? I do.

37 EXAMINATION BY P.P. CONTINUED : ( ) Did you make notes in respect of a Conference held on the 30th October, 1954? I did. You have your notes before you? What Conference was it? Natal African National Congress. '/There was it held? Durban. Can you say what time the Conference started? 2.45 p.m. Until when? 5.45 p.m. Your notes cover two days. Will you refer only to the first day? 5 p.m. 5 p.m. You were ordered out. Is that the position? How many persons attended the Conference? It is not writ-ten. Who was the Chairman? G. Nyembe. Did he address the Conference? He did. Read what he said? "Meeting was declared open at 1.45 p.m. by Mr. Nyembe who said : I greet you all present in this meeting who have to attend to our case and struggle against this Afrikaners domination which seek to divide all races in this country. Nevertheless we will continue our struggle. It has been arranged that Reverend Skakane was to open this meeting but unfortunately ht could not come but ask Mr. H. Mtetwa to apologise on his behalf, and said a short prayer, after which he urged members present not to be discouraged by losing Mr. Muthuli and Nyengwa but I say there must be another Luthuli and Yengwa from amongst us. Mr. Nyembe said First of all I suggest that we should have only two credentials committee. Thus... And then you have a list of names, is that correct?

38 A list of names of persons. Were they serving on the Credentials Committee? Is that so or not? Read the names? E.S. Manana.. Is he one of the Accused? I do not recollect. The next name? S. Dhlamini. Is he one of the Accused? Yes (128). The next name? Resolutions Committee. Mr. A. Gumede. Then you have a list of names of persons serving on the Resolutions Committee, is that correct? Read from the list of names? A. Gumede. Is she one of the Accused? Yes (129). Yes? P. G. Mei (135)5 G. S. Manana (133); Miss B. Mkize (136)j Then who was the next speaker? Mr. Nyembe. Will you omit what he said, and just short afterwards you have a note Mr. Mei addressed the meeting. Is that correct? Is he one of the Accused? Yes (135). Read what he said? "Although we are being asked to support this Congress, but I say there are some people who does not know what is Congress and object particularly chiefs who always say : Oh, that is Luthuli's Congress, we have no concern. This is a sign of negligence on our side. If this Congress meant to achieve its purpose should exclude Indians, Xosas, Basutos, etc. and form a purely Zulu Congress. Time has come for every black man to realise that if he or she is not a member of the African National Congress is a lost sheep. "hen I said Zulu Congress, I meant that every black man is a Zulu in this country. To this point I lay the blame on our leaders for allowing people to go by groups of races but under one name only. I say we don't want to liberate this country by force, but by.." - I cannot

39 decipher this word - ".. by a continuous straggle without bloodshed". The next speaker? Will you read? Mr. Koza. "I deny that there was ever a Congress who needed liberation was in harmony with the state. I remember some time ago when Dr. Dube, Mr. Champion Luthuli and others were members of the Native Council, which was abolished by Dr. Malan. Those people struggled hard to forward our grievanced, but always came back empty handed. It is childish to think that we can stand alone in this struggle. seeks friendship with other big nations. Every big nation Who are we not to seek friendship with those who are oppressed as we are. This Congress came into being just to oppose all oppressive legislation". The next speaker? Gumede. Is that the same person you mention previously? Yes (129). Read what he said? "I second the motion that our leaders are to blame for poor leadership. Some leaders go out to people and say this is Luthuli s Congress who co-operate with Indians. But I say it should have been called Dube's Congress, which I think is also wrong. The Congress is for the people. I say this is still the 1910 Congress, but it has never achieved any genuine purpose. Why? I think we are civilised enough to achieve something better. Those - something better than those who started this Congress. Some people hate the presence of police in our meeting. I say this is wrong. We must learn to like them for they hate no one, but to tell the truth". The next speaker? Kanyan Kozasan. Will you omit what he said. The next one? Mkonza. Omit that as well. The next? Morale. Read what he said? "It is our duty to expand this

40 Congress. We should not forget every black man, even rickshas, they also must organised - must be organised to this Congress so thc.t we can have weight to tell Malan that we need freedom and our rights in this country. When 7/hite people came in this country, found us wearing skins and they thought it wise to teach us to wear clothes and caused us to carry pases so to have control on us. So it is for us now. Fight and free ourselves." The next speaker? Read what he said? Nene. "I say we must never b- discouraged by seeing our leaders being banned. They are fulfiling our wishes, so we must find other leaders to do likewise. Otherwise there will be nothing to show that we are in the struggle for our freedom. You must remember Chaka wanted us to be civilised so we are today. But today Malan wants to keep us back. Must we accept that? No. We must fight on for we want our land. You can imagine the colour bar in this country. We are being segregated even in the cemetry." Then there are a number of speakers. Will you go down to Miss B. Mkize? Miss B. Mkize. You also mentioned her before. That is Accused 136). Read what she said? "I would like to say this that although our leaders are banned we will not stop to fight for our freedom. I say Mr. Swart is a coward. Why can't he face another man. ' 7 hy ban him. This is just because they tell the truth which he fails to face. You are a coward Mr. Swart". The next speaker? Gumede. You have also mentioned him before. He is one of the Accused? Yes (129). Read? "I would like to mention this that the banning of our leaders is a sign showing that the Congress is now a growing up child and that its voice is now noticable

41 by the ruling class." Then will you follow another list of names of speakers. Will you go down to Manana? From what I can see here, there are two Manana 1 s. This one is E. S. Manana. He is not one of the Accused? No. Omit what he said. You already mentioned to the Court that at 5 p.m. you were ordered out of the hall? The next day, the 31st October, 1954, you attended the further proceedings of the same Conference? Did you make notes at the Conference? I did. I did. You have your notes before you? Who was then Chairman? G. Nyembe. Secretary at the Conference? Gumede was acting. One of the Accused? Yes (129). You have a note, speakers. Is that correct? What name next to it? Dr. W. Conco. Is he one of the Accused? (127). Did he address the Conference, Dr. Conco? Will you read what he said? "Firstly I would like to emphasise one thing that our main object is to strengthen this Congress and I also assure that this Congress will never perish, nor matter what. Whatever means Mr. Swart (Blackie) may do, but we shall have to fight on. Today many people say that this Congress is causing trouble between the Europeans and natives. I say this is wrong. Long, long ago the Europeans hated you. I think the only mistake with the Congress is that it tells the truth about what the Europeans are doing with - doing to the African people. Trade Unions. I have been informed that here in Durban there has been a Trade Union Conference and it was decided that - it was decided there that Africans must be excluded from that meeting, and I wonder who forms the average workers in the Union. You must remember we are all workers and must take part in suc&

42 organisations. Education. With regard to this I would like to remind you that the Congress had marked about this native or Bantu Education Act that it was wrong and yet no one took notice. Now here is Bantu Education. What do we parents say about it? We of the Congress have refused this long ago, this education teaches our children to fear European forever. This I call it predestination. This education is not ours for we were never consulted. In fact they fear our advancement in civilisation. That is all. The reason why education is taken from the missionaries is this, because they want to indoctrinate our children with fear or Europeans. Removal Scheme. I would like to tell you that here no one who owns land for there is no security. No matter you may possess title deeds, it is meaningless. There is something wrong with us here. That is if this removal scheme takes place in the Transvaal, we must not keep quiet. We must voice our protest. Economic Rent. The Minister of Native Affairs Department has announced this high rent because he believes that natives get a lot of money. I would like to know whether do we possess any money? The object of this is to make you all a forever slave. In Johannesburg Africans have passed a resolution informing the Government that they have no money. It is time now to say where you accept it or not. Now, lastly I would like to voice my appreciation to see a big crowd like this and I must remind you that very soon we are having a National Conference. conclusion. Therefore we must do our best to its successful I am also grateful to see an Indian, Mr. Meer, representative to show that we are all in one." The next speaker? Nyembe. Omit what he said? The next speaker? Mr. Meer. Is he one of the Accused? Yes (134). Read what he said? "Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen. I am grateful on behalf of the Natal Indian Congress to

43 bring this message to you. I think that you Mr. Luthuli and Yengwa, are banned and still more are banned, both Indians and Africans but we must take a serious step against this. I thank the latter s eaker when he said all men and women must united against all oppressive laws. is giving us more power to work harder. In fact the banning In India leaders were imprisoned, but the strength of the people lead to the freedom of India. Through the whole continent of Africa, Congress is the main topic. I would like to tell you that the banning is giving us more power to exercise our brains. The African National Congress has proved that the main body of all Congresses. Our Congress decided to follow Luthuli, same as Democratic Party, Liberal Party and the Coloured People's Organisation. This African National Congress is the backbone of all what concerned non-europeans in this country. I therefore wish this Congress a great successful conclusion. In the name of all other Congresses I say forward with this Congress we shall all follow". The next speaker? Read what he said? Conco. "I stand to thank the last spea v er for all what he has said. Yes, in freedom there is no fear, no oppression. Therefore I like to send Mr. Meer with this message to other Congresses that there is nothing that will cause our allies to " Then there follows a list of speakers. Is that correct? Will you go to the speaker A. Gumede? You have already identified him, is that correct? Will you read what he said? "Here we are facing ^ lot of hard problems, but we must face them with all our mighty best. You see there are some men in this country who take themselves as equal to God, such as the Government of this country. Therefore this Congre s is not fighting these problems in a way that will cause blood or lead to

44 gaols. The Congress is facing these problems legally until we have achieved our purpose to free ourselves". You hand in your notes EXHIBIT G. 780? I dol You also hand in a document, the Agenda of the Conference, is that correct*? EXHIBIT G Where did you find it? I got it at the meeting. You also hand in a document, containing a message from Chief Luthuli to the same Conference, is that correct? EXHIBIT G. 782? Where did you get it? At the meeting. COURT ADJOURNS. CASE REMANDED TO

45 COURT RESUMES APPEARANCES AS BEFORE : MR. COAKER ADDRESSES COURT s Accused Absent : Position same as on In Addition : No. 142 B. Nair; No. 146 D. A. Seedat. Certificates will be handed in later. Medical Certificates relating to No. 93 G. Peake and No. 83 L. Forman handed in. (E, Mazwai - Int. Zulu - Eng.) PAUL ZULU, duly sworn; ( ) EXAMINED BY THE P.P. : Did you make notes of a Conference held on the 10th March, 1956? I did. You have your notes before you? - What Conference was it? African National Congress Women's Association, Two Sticks Branch. Where was it held? Nebe's Hall, Durban. What time did the Conference start? 3.35 p.m. Who was the Chairlady? Mrs. Ostrich. Did she address the Conference? Read what she said? "Mrs. H. Ostrich opened the meeting and said, our main object in this meeting is to deal with passes for women, we are in great difficult period, where our women folk will have to explain what they are doing in Durban, whether a domestic servant or shebeen runner. It is wrong to believe that it will be a privilege letter, but it will be really a dom pass. You still remember we invited Mr. Bokweni to explain the nature of this pass. He tailed until we had to go to the City Hall, and he was not there. Now I'll leave this to my secretary". The next speaker? F, Mkize. Will you omit that, and the next speaker? Mrs. Ostrich.

46 The Chairlady? Read what she said? "Now we shall form the Credential Committee and the Resolutions Committee". Were the office bearers then elected on the Credentials Committee? You have a list of names of persons elected? Mention the names of Accused persons who were elected? S. Dlamini (128); P. Manana (133). And the Resolutions Committee, you also have a list of names of persons elected? Mention the names of Accused persons elected? A. Gumede (129); P. G. Mei (135)5 Is that all? Will you read your report from there? "Messages from other branches and well wishers were read. P. H. Simelane introduced the European and Indian females." P. H. Simelane, is he one of the Accused? Yes (150). Then P. G. Mei, read on? "P. G. Mei acted as an interpreter" He is the same person you have identified a few minutes ago? - Yes (135). Omit what was said and then you have a list of speakers, is that correct? Will you go to Dorothy Nyembe? Is she one of the Accused? (144). Read what she said? "Dorothy Nyembe said : In the name of the Two Sticks Branch, I must thank all delegates and the White ladies who have come to give us encouragement today. Our main trouble is passes. In fact I thought I would find this house full of women but I see empty chairs, why? You all know what is happening to our men folk just because of passes. They rise up jiills and downs slopes just because of passes. The behaviour of police against Africans of either sex is terrible. It will happen that father and mother of a child will be arrested for passes and the child will remain to die in the room. I assure you of this, that any womanvfoo has

47 accepted a pass will eventually find herself deported to where she came from, but we of the Congress shall remain. Today we expected that missionaries will also help us but to find that they are the opposite. I firmly say that all women who have bin themselves in the struggle will win the battle, should they stand up and bring more women to join this organisation." The next speaker? Mrs. Ostrich. Omit what she said. The next? P. H. Simelane. You have already mentioned him before. Omit what he said. The next? P. G. Mei. You have so mentioned him before? I did. Read what he said? Daughters of Africa, I did not think that I would be seeing you again, but here am I. I am moved by what has been said with regard to passes. I would tell you of one incedence. A policeman visited a house where a man was sleeping with his sick wife from home. This policeman opened the window and woke the man up and demanded pass, and permit but there was no permit, so was arrested on the way to the police station stopped the man and said you stand here, I forgot my stick at your place. So he went and said to the man's wife, if you want your husband to be free, give me 2 or sleep with me, but the sick woman cried loudly and the police went, but the woman followed and reported the matter to her husband. Now I say, how much more will it be when women carry passes. Remember the children of Israelites in Egypt, so we are in that state. Please do not forget to pray to your ancestors, they will help you." You hand in your notes EXHIBIT G. 783? I do. Did you obtain the bulletin,'mayebuye Afrika' at the Conference? I did. On the same date? Prom whom? From Dorothy Nyembe, one of the Accused. (144).

48 You hand it in, EXHIBIT G. 784? - I do. EXAMINATION BY P.P. CONTINUED : ( ) Did you mako notes of a Conference held on the 28th July, 1956? - I did. You have your notes before you, is that Correct? Which Conference was it? African National Congress, Regional Conference. Which region? T?r here was it held? Natal. Edendale Local Health Commission Community Hall, Pietermaritzburg. What time did the Conference commence? 3.10 p.m. Until when? 7.30 p.m. Then did it continue on the next day? Who was the Chairman on the first day? Gabriel Sondlo Nyembe. How many persons were present? I counted 125 males, 4-3 females, 2 European males and 15 Indians. Bid the Chairman open the meeting? Will you read what he said in opening the meeting? "G. S. Nyembe : I shall now call upon our guest friends to take seats with us up here (stage) thus Mr. Brown, Br. Motale, Br. Sililo. Br. Motale, is he one of the Accused? Yes (138). Read on? "And Br. Sililo. I shall now call upon A. Gumede to welcome delegates". Is he one of the Accused? Yes (129). Read on? - - ".. to welcome delegates as speakers of the House (this was done). Nyembe said :..." Thai; is the Chairman? Yes? "This was a very distinguished Conference for we have amongst us our Cetwayo..." ".hat does it mean? The name of our late King. Read on? ".. who has just returned from the Island,

49 that is Chief A. J. Luthuli..." Is he one of the Accused, Chief Luthuli? Yes (132). Yes, read on? "Further we have Mr. Brown, Dr. Motale, Dr. Sililo, with us in this Conference. Therefore on behalf of the A.N.C. i must thank the presence of A. J. Luthuli." The next speaker? Read what he said? Dr. S. J. Sililo. "I am indeed honoured to lie given this opportunity to open this Conference. I am also pleased that A. J. Luthuli is with us today. Although he had suffered some serious physical disabilities, I therefore thank God for he is spared for us once more. He also suffered banishment imposed by the Minister of Justice, for his endeavour to bring about liberation to our nation. He has become a symbol of Africa. The African National Congress ought to be proud for having such a leader. In fact we intend to put this struggle up until we have brought our people to a true democratic footing. We do not want our people to go out with that, we want this in a narrow gauge or racially, but for all colours and creeds, we are opposed to the policy of superior and inferior. We adhere to the Freedom Charter formed in Kliptown. Therefore the whole of South Africa is waiting on the African National Congress to play its role. Let us advance forward to our Freedom. I therefore declare this meeting opened." The next speaker? Mr. Brown. Will you omit what he said. The next speaker? Dr. Motale. Read what he said? - -"Dr. Motale said ; I bring to you message from the Natal Indian Congress. My congress expresses its appreciation for being told that A. J. Luthuli would be present. I say in these dark days we needed such leaders, in spite of drastic legislation by this Government, laws of separation and apartheid, we will struggling on, so

50 you have come to aid us once more. Soms Indians say, we Indians have become nothing since we co-operated with the African National Congress, "but I say this is wrong, for we have something in common with you Africans, through your leadership as African National Congress we see the way through. The A.N.C. is a democx'atic and progressive movement against the satanic injusticcness of this Government. The objective of the African National Congress and its policy is also ours. A. J. Luthuli has become a symbolic figure amongst us all and our oppressors. He refused to yield with the Government and the riches, but decided to side with the oppressed and poor, ihere is only one common binding objective, that is freedom for everyone. I therefore wish this Conference a very successful conclusion and until our freedom is secured." The next speaker? A. Gumede. You have mentioned him before. He is one of the Accused, is that correct? Read what he said? "Gumede passed a vote of thanks to speeches made by the aforesaid speakers, also read messages from arious organisations and from J. Collins..." Only mention - you then have a list of names, is that correct, from whom messages were received? I only have the names I have on my paper, I could not get them all. That is correct. Will you mention the names of Accused persons amongst that list? Dr. W. Z. Conco (127); M. B. Yengwa (151). The next speaker? P. H. Simelane. Is he one of the Accused? Yes (150). Read what he said? "I would like to inform the meeting that those women who are interested in against passes for women, must come in tomorrow when this would be dealt with." The next speaker? A. J. Luthuli. You have already mentioned him?

51 Read what he said? "It is hard for me to know where to "begin, for in such an occasion as this, but as I see the delegation here, I feel most convinced that the struggle is on to freedom. But now before I ibome to my formal address, I must thank those who prayed for me in my hour of difficulty in health. Now I shall continue my address (as per attached)." You got the copy of his address which you will hand in later, is that correct? What happened then, after he addressed the meeting? Credentials Committee. What about it? I wrote down the nam^s of the members of the Credential Committee. Were they elected there? Yes, names were mentioned and it was stated that they formed the Credential Committee. You have the names. Will you mention the names of Accused persons on that committee? P. H. Simelane (150-). And then, what happened after that? Read? "General discussion on Presidential Address. Presidential Address was accepted as it is". Then did The meeting close? And the next day, the 29th July, 1956, did you again attend the Conference? I did. WJio was t re Chairman then? Did he address the Conference? C-abriel Nyembe. Omit what he said. The next speaker? He called upon Gumede to read the minutes. Who was the first speaker? Henrietta Ostrich spoke.fter Gumede. Will you read what she said? "Henrietta Ostrich said : Here we have come with a very serious trouble, but it seems as if women in Pietermaritzburg are cold as ice. Passes are fast after us. The Government is forcing us to carry reference books (dom pass), so we shall oecome victims of the police, as we are known to be forgetful people. If I

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