(Z. K.: 'ATTH3WS)

Transcription

1 (Z. K.: 'ATTH3WS) before that Conference for ratification? It had been hoped that th& Freedom Charter would be considered at this Conference, the 1955 Conference, but our experience is that whenever Conferences take place at which office bearers are to be elected, most other business is put 5 aside, and this is what happened to the Freedom Charter at the 1955 Conference. Consideration was postponed. It was postponed to a Special Conference to be held in Johannesburg in 1956? In 1956 you were again acting Frincipal? 10 Did you attend the Johannesburg Conference? No, I didn't attend the Johannesburg Conference.» During 1956, did you attend National Executive meetings? I can't remember now that I attended any 15 meetings in Any Cape ijxecutive meetings? I attended one Cape isxecutive meeting I think in 1956, in about October. according to the evidence, during the period we have just dealt with, the African National Congress 20 was occupied with a number of campaigns, the campaign against Bantu Education, the Congress of the People, Western,>.reas Removal and also the question of the extension of the pass system to women? Were any of these campaigns of more importance 25 than the others? Did you give priority to those I have mentioned? No, these campaigns were all of equal importance. Of these things I have mentioned, which topic do you think most exercised the minds of.i.n.c. members 30

2 r I ( Z.K. MaTTHjSWS) throughout the country? That - as an educationist, I would say Bantu Education that agitated tha minds of the people. With regard to the Western Areas opposition campaign, were many members of the ^. N. C. able to 5 take a direct active part? No, certainly not from the oth^r provinces. Did you in the A.N.C. regard this campaign as a decicive campaign in your struggle? Decicive in what sense? 10 Did you think that if you were able to stop that removal it would be the end of the government? Certainly not, it would take more than that to bring even this government to its knees. Did you feel it you could stop the removal it 15 would be a victory, an important one? Yes, if we were successful in stopping the removal, that would have been a very big victory. Professor Matthews, I just want to put to you one or two passages from documents which were found in 20 your possession, which are apparently the text of your Presidential.addresses. Now large parts of these have been read into the record, and I don't want to re-read them. I just want to ask you to comment on one or two particular topics. Now would you first have a look at 25 this document Z.K.M. 2, which appears to be the text of your Presidential Address to the Provincial Conference at Cradock in August, Can you identify that? I don't want to read it out, large parts of 30

3 (Z.K. Ma.TTHEWS) it are to be found in Volume 23 of the record, but I just want you to look at page 5, wher^ you make the point that in some quarters attempts are being made to represent the A.N.C. as anti-white and subversive, and in other quarters it is alleged that the A.N.C. is under 5 some kind of non-african domination, and you say the trouble is that there are so many people in this country who are themselves accustomed to pushing the Africans from pillar to post, that because the African is no longer at their beck and call, he must be subject to the 10 influence of someone else. They are not willing to give the African credit for ever being able to do anything on his own initiative. Was that an accusation that had in fact been made against the A.N.C.? By what bodies in particular were there acousa- 15 tions that you were influenced? There were bodies like - other organisations, you know, other non-white organisations like the All-African Convention, the Unity Movement, bodies like that, which sometimes levelled these accusations. 20 Was it ever alleged for instance that you were influenced by the Indian Congresses? And that you took your policy from them? And what was your feeling about those accusations? We felt that those accusations were completely 25 unjustified and they did not recognise the broad policy which we were following, a policy of co-operation with other groups. During this indictment period, you co-operated with the Congress of Democrats and the Indian Congress 30

4 (Z.K..MiiTTHBWS) and the Coloured Peoples Organisation? We did. Did they lay down the policy of the A.N.C.? No, they didn't lay down the policy of the A.N.C. The policy of the A.N.C. was laid down by the National Conference of the a.n.c. 5 And in this Congress alliance, which was the senior partner? We considered ourselves the senior partner. ^nd this allegation that these other Congresses dominate your policy, why do people make that allegation 10 would you say? n.s I have indicated already, the thing isthat there are individuals, groups, who always think that in any group where Africans are together with other groups, the Africans will be dominated. I think that is an insult to the African people. 15 I want to ask you about the Congress of Democrats. When it was formed and began to co-operate with the A.N.O., did you know much about its personnel? Did you know wh;th^r it included people who 20 had been named as Communists under the Suppression of Communism Act? I personally didn't know, I found out afterwards, not at the beginning. Was - di1 that alarm you? No. ^id you welcome the existence of a White 2 5 organisation which would co-operate with you? We did, we welcomed the existence of an organisation of Europeans which would try to do amongst the IJuropeans what we were trying to do amongst the African people. ^id you un erstand whether they supported your, 30

5 (Z.K. MaTTHMS) policy? Yes, we co-operated with them on the "basis of their support of our policy. Or on the basis of your support of their policy? - No, not on the basis of our support of their policy. It is our policy that we were emphasising. 5 Now in this same speech at the bottom of page 5 and the topof page 6, you express views about certain purely 7/hite political organisations or movements, including the Liberal Party? Of iihich you are critical in this speech? 10 When the Liberal Party was formed, were people in the A.N.C. suspicious of it? Yes, I am afraid that is so. We were very suspicious about this body. Why? firstly because of its constitution 15 really, the constitution which was proposed. The main point of difficulty that we found was that they set out to work for what they called the qualified franchise, and we in the ^.N.C. had already gone beyond that stage. Were you yourself approached to join the 20 Liberal Party? Yes, I was. Did you agree? No, I didn't. In general, were you sorry that the Liberal Party had appeared on the political horison? No, 2 5 ceertainly not. It seemed to me that they represented a step in the right direction, although it wasn't a step, as I said, which was as far as we would have liked to see them go, but nevertheless they represented a step in the right direction. Was there any co-operation between the ^.N.C. 30

6 " (Z.K. MATTHEWS) and the Liberal Party? Yes, from time to time members of the A.N.C. and members of the liberal Party have co-operated on local issues in different areas. Do you know whether during this period we are dealing with the Liberal Party changed' its franchise 5 policy? I understand yes, that the Liberal Party has from time to time changed its policy, especially on this question of the franchise as moving nearer and nearer to the sort of approach that we have to the question. Have you any theory about why they have done so? 10 No, I have no theory on that. On page 7 of this document, you have a reference to the Defiance Campaign and you told us you were a party - that you were present at the 1950 and 1951 Conferences which according to other evidence we have ha I adopted a 15 plan prepared by a joint committee of the A.N.C. and the South African Inlian Congress? Were you a party to that decision to hold the Defiance Campaign? Yes, I was at the 1951 Conference. We have had evidence that the Defiance Campaign 20 was a campaign of civil disobedience on a non-violent basis and that it had contemplated various stages, in the first place defiance of select laws by groups of volunteers and then by larger groups of people, and then industrial action is referred to. Now in the 25 Defiance Campaign, when you adopted this programme, did you ever contemplate that it would lead to violence? No, we didn't. Was it your plan that it shouli lead to violence? It was not our plan that it should lead 30 J

7 (Z.K. Ma.TTHEWS) to violence. Our plan was that throughout the campaign it should remain a non-violent campaign. through all its stages? Through all its stages. Did you think it was probable that you would 5 be able to succeed in that hope? Yes, we had no reason for believing otherwise. And what was the object of the Defiance Campaign as you saw it? ^s I have indicated before, the object of the Defiance Campaign was similar to the object of 10 all our campaigns, to draw the attention of those who could do something about it to the position of the African people. May I ask for yourcomment on the suggestion that your intention in launching the Defiance Campaign 15 was to bring abcut a chaditic situation in which you would be able to overthrow the state by violent means. What would you say to that suggestion? it was a figment of the imagination. I would say that We never had any idea of that kind in mind. 20 Now I would trouble to road out again the / document, it is a report of this Joint Planning Council of the Defiance Campaign, it has been before the Court. There was reference to it, particularly in paragraph 13 to the question of a stay at home as a political method 25 in a later stage of the campaign. Did you have any views in the A.N.C. oh the stay at home as a political method, the efficacy or merits? 7e thought it was an efficacious method, we thought it would, if it was applied an followed by a sufficient number of people. 30

8 (Z.K. Ma.TTHEWS) There is nothing mora I want to put to you in that document, Professor Matthews. MR. TRoNGOVij : My Lord, could I just raise a matter, My Lord. Your Lordships will remember that at the time of the State of Ermegency and when Counsel withdrew on the instructions of the Accused, the question of providing records was raised by the Accused Nokwe on behalf of theother Accused, and Your Lordship will remember that the Accused Nokwe then asked for four copies of the record to be made available to the Accused, and the Crown said that they could do that, provided the accused pay the usual fee for the record. There - the matter of finance was then raised, and I think at the suggestion of Your Lordships, the Crown then undertook to provide a library at the. place of detention and the four copies of the record would then be available for the Accused in that library. My Lords, as a result of some - My Lord, it wasnthe one copy which they were getting, and three additional copies. My Lord, as a result of some misunderstanding somewhere, on the lay of the release of the Accused from detention, the records were taken along with them, and they are apparently still, My Lord, in the possession of the Accused. The position of the Crown is that they arranged with the person providing the recording that these copies would be made available in gaol, and that he would have them back as soon as the need for the.accused to refer to them fell away. My Lords, we are having some difficulty in getting back these copies, the three sets of the record which as a result of some

9 misunderstanding were removed. We have asked the Defence Counsel, My Lords, although they were not involved in it, hut we understand through them that there is some difficulty. My Lord, these copies were not supplied to the Accused, they were made available at the gaol in the library. MR. JUSTICJ RUMIFF S In the library? I take it it was a room or a cell set aside for this purpose. We had a lot of difficulty about that, yes. How many copies were given? Three? MR. TRaNGOV-ii) : Yes, My Lord, three. The position is that the Crown on the one hand as a favour to the Accused made them available, we can't get them from the accused, and we have to Return to them to the person making the record. MR. KJNTRIDG-a s My Lord, we understand that there was some doubt about what had happened to them. I understand from my instructing attorney that ho has made an arrangement for Mr. Joubert, the Registrar, to meet him here at soon as Mr. Joubert can manage, to try and find out from the Accused what happened to all those copies. Apparently some of them - some of that part of the record has been found and is here in Court. I think there was some question about whose they were, but I understand that Mr. Joubert is discussing it with my instructing attorney and the.accused, and that he is coming down to Court to do so and they will try and straighten it out. MR. JUSTICE RUMIFF : Anyway, I think it was on the understanding that they were to be of assistance to the accused because

10 17930(a) they couldn't come down here at night - there were all sorts of troubles, and we suggested that the Grown provide them with copies. MR. KIDNTRIDG-bi s We will endeavour to assist my learned friend. MR. JUSTICE HUMEFF s That ought to be arranged. CaSa RJMAND-JD TO THii TH OCTOBER, I960. COURT ADJOURNS.

11 COURT RESUMES ON THE 4-TH OCTOBER, I960. APFEAR^NCES AS BEFORE. Accused M. Moolla not in Court. THE DEFENCE GALIS s BETTY KEKANA, duly sworn? JX^rNJD BY MR. FISCHER : In 1954, Mrs. Kekana, where were you living? In Sophiatown. 77 Morris Street, Sophiatown. Were you a member of the A.N.C.? I was. When did you join? In Were you active in any way? I was not. Did you attend meetings occasionally? I used to attend public meetings only. Did you know of the scheme to remove people from Sophiatown to Meadowlands? I kn-^w afeerat it. ^id you know what the Congress policy was with regard to that removal? I did, My Lord. W$re you told what you wore to do when the day for removal came? I was told, My Lords. Where were you told that? At homo. By whom? By the volunteers. Did they come to your house? Yes, My Lord. Did you also hear what you were to do at other places or only at your house? I also heard at a meeting. What were you told that you had to do? They told us to refuse to go to Meadowlands. What else did they tell you? I was told that we must not go to Meadowlands because the law out there is rather harsh and the rent is high, and we will also have to have permits.

12 M I (B. KEKANA) Is that for people to staywith you? I was really asking, what else were you told that you had to do on the day of removal? My Lords, the volunteers told us that wo must refuse to go, but when the police come and carry our goods out and load 5 them onto the lorries, only then we must go. tt-nd were you moved from Sophiatown to Meadowlands? was. When was that? On the 19th October, And when they came to you, when the police came 10 to you, did 3 r ou do what the volunteers had said you must do? I did, My Lord. Did you ever hear anybody say that the people of Sophiatown should resist by force or violence? No, My Lord. 15 I just want to ask you one other thing. You know when the first removal took place? I do. ^id the volunteers speak to you before that or after that? They spoke to me before the first removals, My Lord. 20 NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR. FISCHER. CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. K0EXT.JR : Mrs. Eekana, when in 1954 did you join the African National Congress? I have forgotten the month, My Lords. To what branch of the African National Congress did you belong? Sophiatown Branch, My Lords. At public meetings of the African National Congress, in Sophiatown, what speakers did you hear

13 (B. KiiiHANA) addressing the crowd? I think I heard lather Moretsele speak, My Lords..anybody else? Anybody else? Father Resha. Brother Mbuli. Anybody else? I have forgotten the others. 5 How many public meetings of the ^.N.C. did you attend in 1954? My Lords, I can't remember, but I think I attended meetings once a month whenever there was a public meeting. When did the volunteers come to your house for 10 the first time in connection with the removal of the Western Areas? I can't remember now, My Lords. At public meetings in Sophiatown, were you not told by speakers that you should resist removal at all costs? That is correct, My Lords. 15 And that if necessary, in resisting, the inhabitants of Sophiatown should be prepared to face death? That I have never heard before, My Lords. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR. HOTTER. NO REEXAMINATION. ZACHARI^H KEODIBjILaNG MaTTHJWS, under former oath5 EXAMINATION BY MR. KENTRIDG-I CONTINUED s Professor Matthew^, before I continue from the point which we had reached yesterday, I want to show you a copy of the 1919 Constitution which has the number O.R.T. 37. Will you look at it? Yes, this is the 1919 Constitution. If you look at the top of page 5, I think one

14 (Z.K. MATTHSfS) will find Chapter 4, Methods or Modus Operandi in the middle of the page? That reads % "Methods or Modus Operandi, 13. The Work of the association shall be effected and advanced (a) by means of resolutions, protests and constitutional 5 and peaceful propaganda, by deputations and other forms of representations, by hoi ling enquiries and the investigation of grievances and other matters and by passive action or continued movement". And then it goes on, "(b) Educations (c) By means of united action", and then it 10 goes on to deal with election to legislative and administrative bodies. Is that correct? Now that Constitution, the 1919 Constitution was later replaced by another Constitution? Yes, it was replaced in 1943? I think, by a new constitution. 15 And in that new constitution did this clause I have just read appear, do you recall? No, as I recall, that clause didn't appear. Here we have exhibit A. 15, and the first four pages have been identified as the 1943 Constitution 20 signed by Dr. Xuma ani the Reverend J.A. Calata. Would you just look at that and identify it? Yes, this is a copy of the 1943 Constitution. That is a much simplified document? The 1919 Constitution is a very long and 2 5 detailed document? It is, yes. Do you recall yourself the adoption of the 1943 Constitution? Yes, I do. ^id the dropping of that particular clause that I read about Methods or Modus Operandi at that stage 30

15 U.K. MATTHEWS) involve any change in the methodsof the A.N.C.? No. Now Professor Matthews, I was dealing with some of your Presidential Addresses. There is one, Z.K.M. 18 which was prepared for the annual Conference held at Uitenhage in June 1954? 5 In fact, did you deliver the Presidential Address in 1954? No, I didn't deliver this Presidential Address, but I did speak at the meeting. Here in Z.K.M. 18, can you just tell us whether this is prepared by you? Yes, this was prepared by me. 10 You see that in paragraph 3 you have a word to say about the presence of police at your meetings. Did the police attend your meetings regularly? They did. Was that resented? That was resented by members of the organisation. $5 In this particular document of yours, what you say is that "the stand we take on the policies of this country is wellknnwn to all, police or non police and the like. Wo are neither an illegal or a subversive organisation. Cur Constitution is a public document 20 and all our activities are public. The only information which wo would keep from the police is that which we keep from all non members of our organisation. All organisations have their legitimate private affairs which they do not disclose, and I need hardly say that as 25 far as such matters are concerned, we shall not disclose them to non-members of our organisation, whatever their official positions may be". Did that represent your view? That represents my view, yes. I want to ask you then, arising out of this, 30

16 (Z.K. Ma.TTHEWS) what tho attitude of the African National Congress was to African members of the Special Branch? Our attitude towards African members of the Special Branch was that they were engaged in a form of work which we regarded as a betrayal of their people. 5 Did you perhaps take into account that they were merely doing the duty which they were employed to do? Naturally, we did take into account the fact that they were employed and they were doing their duty, but at the same time we felt that that was not a duty which 10 Africans should perform. The next part of your speech has been read into the record. In it you deal with the different types of attitude which ought to be taken up, and you say that the attitude - one shouldn't take up the attitude of resig- 15 nation, nor should one take up an attitude of blind aggressiveness or an attitude of finding scapegoats and you say "This brought me to what I consider to be the right attitude for us, namely the building up of a well organised fighting force, that fighting force is the 20 A.N.C. The A.N.C. as an organisation stands for the political independence of the African people, the programme of action which was adopted by the A.N.C. in 1949 states this quite clearly". And then you quote from the 1949 Programme, which says that the fundamental 25 principles of tho A.N.C. are inspired by the desire to achieve national freedom. Does that express your view? That expresses my point of view. Were you expressing the attitude of the A.N.C. as you understood it? Yes, I felt I was expressing 30

17 (Z.K. Matthews) the attitude of the A.N.C. as I understood it. In June 1955 did you deliver the Presidential Address at Port Elizabeth? I did, My Lord. That Address is to he found in two documents which have been put in. The first page appears as 5 Exhibit Z.K.M. 32 and the continuation of the document is Z.K.M. 21. Would you identify them please, professor? Yes, this is the Address which I prepared for the Conference. Again, parts of this have beenxead in, I don't 10 want to repeat it, but I would like tomfer you to a passage on page 9 in Z.K.M. 21, Having dealt with certain legislation such as the Bantu Authorities Act and the Land Land - the Native Land and Trust Act, you said "The A.N.C. is quite unrepentant in its attitude 15 towards all these laws and will continue to fight against them, and the same applies to the Bantu education Act. Within our campaign against these laws, we must remember that we are engaged in a long struggle. Any ilea that Victory would be obtained overnight is wishful thinking 20 of the worst type. We are dealing with a well organised, powerful and relentless group which will stop at nothing to achieve its aims. We have deliberately chosen nonviolence as the basis of our method of struggle, a method which requires a high degree of discipline and a highly 25 developed sense of responsibility"? That is what I said, yes. When you said that "wo have deliberately chosen non-violence as a basis of our method of struggle", what did you mean? What I meant was that we have adhered 30

18 Z.K. MATTHEWS) to this policy throughout the history of the African National Congress. I wasn't suggesting by that that there had been some sort of discussion on the pros and cons as far as violence and non-violence is concerned, that in point of fact we had adhered to this.policy over the 5 years. Has this policy of non-violence ever been criticised? No, this policy has not been criticised, certainly not within the African National Congress And outside? The outside groups have 10 criticised the African National Congress for adopting this policy. In fact some organisations have suggested that the adoption of this policy simply means that the A.N.C. is working with the government. And you say there that any idea that victory 15 will be obtained overnight is wishful thinking of the worst type. Docs that represent your view? That represents my view. Do you think it represented the view of the A.N.C. in general? 20 I don't want to ask you anything more about this document. An aspect of your activities during this period which I think we haven't dealt with is that you were asked to head an a.n.c. Committee on Bantu education. Is that correct? That is correct. 25 Were a number of people nominated to that Committee? Yes, in different parts of the country. Did you know of a man called A.P. Mda? Was he a member of the African National Congress? Yes, he was a member of the African National 30

19 / (Z.K. Ma.TTHEWS) Congress for a number of years. Was he in the Cape? He had been in the Transvaal, but later he transferred to the Cape. In the years 1955 and 1956, was he still active in the A.N.C.? - No, he was no longer active in the 5 A.N.C. Was his name suggested as a member of this Bantu Education Committee? Yes, his name was suggested as a member of this committee because he was a teacher at that time. 10 At that time was he active in the A.N.C.? At that time he was not active in the A.N.C. Did he serve on that Committee of yours? I don't know if he accepted, because as a matter of fact the Committee didn't function to any great extent. 15 You were the convener of this Committee? I was the convener of it, yes. Did you nominate him yourself? No, he was nominated... Did he ever get in touch with you in connection 20 with the Committee? No. I now want to deal - leaving aside your own Addresses, - with the general question of what happened at a Conference of the A.N.C. You told us about the Conferences which you attended and the decisions which 25 were taken there. At the National Conferences of the.a.n.c., what sort of attendances did you have? Generally we had a large attendance at Conference. Were those present only official delegates? No, we had both delegates from branches and also just 30

20 (Z.K. Ma.TTHEWS) members of the A.N.C. from different parts of the country who attended the National Conference. At these Conferences, were the policy and activities of the A.N.C. discussed by those present? They were very fully discussed. 5 Did ordinary members and delegates take part in these discussions? They did, we encouraged ordinary members to express their points of vi^w from the floor, this was not just a matter of the people on the platform * laying down the law to ordinary members. 10 Did the membership always simply endorse everything the Executive: had done? Certainly not. The debates and discussions in A.N.C. Conferences often indicated divergencies of point of view, disagreement amongst the ordinary members, disagreements with the 15 policies of the leaders and it was only after discussion that a united point of view was arrived at on any particular question. Wore the Executive Reports debated? And the Presidential Address? 20 Wore resolutions put forward? Resolutions usually were put forward by different branches and provinces, and normally at the Conference these resolutions were referred to a Resolutions Committee to vet them and to co-ordinate them, and then the resolutions 25 were brought back to the plenary session for discussion. Were they debated? Wer- they ever amended? They were debated. Yes, sometimes the resolutions as they emerged from the resolutions committee lid not commend themselves to the Conference, and then 30

21 (Z.K. Ma.TTHEWS) they were amended. " nd were they put to the vote? Were they all carried unanimously? No, very often they were carried "by a majority decision, not by unanimously. 5 And then what would the minority do? Well, we expected the minority in a case like that to accept the majority decision, but at the same time the minority was perfectly entitled to continue to work for their point of view and for a change in the policy adopted. 10 And did the minority voters in those cases accept the decisions? They accepted the decisions. They didn't resign at once? No. Were resolutions put forward by the resolutions committee ever defeated? They are not put forward by 15 the Resolutions Committee, they come from the branches, from the Conference itself. The Resolutions Committee did not of itself, of its own motion put forward resolutions. That was not their functions. Did resolutions which came forward from branches,20 were such resolutions were defeated? Yes, such resolutions were sometimes defeated. In these conferences which you attended, did you ever hear any resolution put forward or any speech from an A.N.C. member in favour of dropping the policy 25 of non-violence? No, no such resolution was ever put forward. Were there ever moves in theconference to amend the 1949 Programme? In what direction? There were moves from 30

22 (Z.K. Ma.TTHEWS) time to time by certain sections "by amend the 1949 Programme of action. This effected particularly the boycott of differential institutions, like the Advisory Boards and the N.R.C. and so on. Sometimes we did get groups in the A.N.C. who thought that this particular aspect 5 of the Programme of Action should bo changed, and they would come forward with a resolution about that, and this would be debated and discussed, but as far as I know this particular - all those efforts were not successful. Where did this move come from to delete the 10 clause about the boycott? The two areas which seemed to be interested in this aspect were the Western Cape and also certain sections of the Transvaal. Has there ever been put forward in Congress the idea of abolishing provincial autonomy? Yes, this 15 question has also engaged the attention of the Conference from time to time. There have been groups in favour of a more high centralised organisation, as against the present form of organisation wliere we allow a fairly large degree of autonomy to the different provinces. 20 Did that view prevail? That view did not prevail, the provincial structure has been maintained of the A.N.C. And the 1949 Programme was not amended? No. Does the a.n.c. set out to impose a unified 25 method of thought or line of thought on its followers? No, it doesn't. We allow for a great deal of differences of opinion, different schools of thought within the A.N.C. If members deviate from the policy of the 30

23 (Z.K. MATTH3WS) A.N.C., was it the A.N.C.'s method to expell them readily? No, we didn't adopt the attitude of readily expelling members who deviated from the policy. How would you prefer to treat thjm? We prefer to treat them in terms of our disciplinary clause 5 in the Constitution. Ther^ is a clause in our constitution which indicates that where an individual or a group departs from A.N.C. policy, such a group can be dealt with by a brahc to which they belong or the province to which they belong, with the right of appeal to the National 10 Conference. Haventhere been occasions when sections of the A.N.C. have been expelled? Yes, that has happened. What has led to the expulsion of those sections in general? What have they done to warrant expulsion? 15 The groups have been expelled where they have persistently and consistently opposed the policy of the A.N.C. and have refused to fall into line when they are remonstrated with. Do you recall a section in the A.N.C. called 20 the National Minded Bloc? Were they expelled? They were eventually expelled, y^s. Why? Because they were against our policy of co-operation with other groups, non-african groups. Do you remember a faction - before I leave then, this National Minded Bloc, what sort of view did it take on racial policy in South Africa? What was its aim? Well, it seemed t^ us to be a group that was stressing unduly the policy of Africa for the Africans. 30

24 (Z.K. MATTR3WS) When was that Bloc expelled? It must have been about 1953 or 1952, round about there. Did you know of another faction in the Congress called the Bafabegiya? Yes, I know there was a section like that in the Transvaal. 5 Was that expelled? Eventually they had to be expelled. What sort of faction was that? This seemed to be a faction which seemed to want the A.N.C. to develop into a working class organisation, which was not open to 10 all groups as we want the A.N.C. to be. And did this matter come before the Conference? Yes, this matter came before the National Conference, because when they were dealt with by their province they appealed against the decision of the province to the 15 National Conference. Was the expulsion upheld? Do you know when that was? I can't remember the exact year was, but I think it was about Do you know anything about some members of the 20 National Minded Bloc coming back to the a.n.c. in the Transvaal? Yes, there have been some who have trickled back into the A.N.C. Do you know whether any of those wore subsequently dealt with again? Yes, because they showed the same 25 tendencies. $his last group which we have mentioned, were they expelled eventually? And what was their policy? The people who came back from the National Minded Bloc and who were later 30

25 i (Z.K. MATTHEWS) expelled? They had the same Africanist - what they called an Africanist outlook. At your National Conferences, were resolutions on what one might call world affairs sometimes put forv/ard? Yes, there were, from time to time. 5 What gave rise to those resolutions, do you know, in general? Generally they arose out of current events in the world. Did they give rise to debates? They did, they often gave rise to discussion, debate. 10 Were they passed unanimously? Not always. Were there differences of opinion about the wording of those resolutions? Yes, from time to time people didn't always agree on the wording. Did the resolutions and debates on world 15 affairs take up much of the time of the Conferences? No, actually not. They usually occupied a very small portion of the time of the Conference. At these Conferences, professor, were there ever theoretical discussions about the nature of political 20 change, let us say? No, our organisation was not of that nature. We didn't have those theoretical discussions about things. Did speakers ever refer to particular forms - the particular forms of struggle which appear in the 25 Programme of Action? On what lines did they speak about those then? Well, on the lino that these are methods that should be supported or should be applied in a particular campaign. But there was no discussion of their theoretical 30

26 (Z.Z. MATTHEWS) basis for those methods. With regard to particular methods, at National Conferences, did speakers ever speak about'industrial action? They did. What line was generally taken about that? 5 The line which is generally taken with - was that this was possibly the most effective method that could be applied by people who are workers. Were you leaders in the A.N.C. in a position to guarantee to your followers that your methods would 10 succeed? No, no political leader would ever guarantee to its followers that any particular method was certain to bring success. I think that would be absurd. Were you optimistic about your methods? We were optimistic, yes, we had faith in them, but neverthe- 15 less we couldn't guarantee success. A number of your campaigns according to the evidence, had in a sense failed to achieve the objects, for instance the Defiance Campaign. Did that not lead to a loss of confidence by you in the efficacy of your 20 non-violent methods? No. I would say that even where a campaign on the face of it appeared to have failed, there were certain by products out of that campaign which to us represented a measure of success. What about the Defiance Campaign? Did that 2 5 have any measure of success in your opinion? Yes, I think the Defiance Campaign had produced certain results which we thought were very good. For example, in our opinion it raised the level of political consciousness of the African people in different parts of the country. 30

27 (Z.K. Ma.TTHEWS) Would you explain to Their Lordships what you mean "by that phrase "raising the level of political consciousness of the African people"? I mean that it made more people aware of the political situation and the political conditions under which they lived. 5 Did it have any effects on the A.N.C.? Yes, it had the effect of increasing the membership of the A.N.C. and it also in my opinion increased the prestige of the A.N.C. amongst the African people. Do you think it had any effect on the govern- 10 ment or the White people in this country? It did have an effect on the government, judging by the reaction of the government to the campaign, the passing of the Public Safety Act and the Criminal Laws Amendment Act, those indicated that the government took this campaign seriously.15 Do you think it had any effect on White citizens generally in this country? I think so. I think that White citizens in this country became more aware than they had been in the past, and indeed I think certain organisations emerged at that time as a result of the 20 Defiance Campaign, organisations among the Whites, who felt that something should be done about supporting the claims of Africans in this regard. Did you think it had any effect abroad? I think it did. I think it did attact attention overseas. 25 I remember myself for example that at that time I was not in the country and I know that in America the Defiance Campaign did attract a lot of attention. Do you think it was favourable attention from your point of view? I think so. It made people more 30

28 (Z.K. Ma.TTHEWS) more aware of the existence of these problems and of what was happening in the country. Consequently, after the Defiance Campaign, let us take the time when you came back, 1953 to 1956, would you say the A.N.C. still felt optimistic about 5 its methods or not? I think it still felt optimistic. Did you feel that you had anything to hope for from for instance world opinion? Yes, we did feel that the more our cause gets to be known, not only in this country but in other parts of the world, the more 10 we get the moral support of world opinion. Do you think that your optimism in that regard was.justified? Do you think you have got world support? I think we have, yes. Prom any particular group of countries or nolfc? 15 I should say that we have a wider measure of support now for example in the United States than we had in Do you believe or did you believe I should say that world support or world opinion would be of any importance in ycur struggle? Yes, we do believe that. 20 We believe that South Africa, like any other country in the modern wurld, cannot live in isolation, and deal with its problems as if the rest of the world doesn't exist. What reaction did you think that the government 25 would produce to your policy? Your policy of civil disobedience and passive resistance and industrial action? There were two ways of looking at that. On the one hand, there was a possibility of a hardening of the attitude of the government towards the African 30

29 (Z.K. Ma.TTHEWS) people, that was to he expected. But we always hoped that there might he a change as a result of this pressure, there might he a change in the attitude of the government and of the electorate generally. Did you indicate to your followers that the 5 government's reaction might he har^h? We did. In this speech of yours to which we have referred, you said, talking of the government, "we are dealing with a well organised^: powerful and relentless group which will stop at nothing to achieve its aims". Was 10 that your view? That was my view, yes. Did you have in mind that force might he used by the government against your followers? Aid ycu warn them of than? We did. What did you warn them they might have to face? 15 We warned them that they might have to face hardships, suffering and even death. MR. JUSTICE BEKKER s What is it you had in mind when you said that? When we said that, we had in mind the fact that the 20 government in suppressing a particular campaign might use force and that that force might result in harm to people. «/ - What circumstances did you have in mind as to the necessity of force being used nn the part of the government? Perhaps I shouldn't use the word necessity, - possibility? Well, take the possibility for example like this, that you might have a group of peoplewho are having a meeting, which they consider a perfectly peaceful demonstration. The police might come

30 (Z.K. Ma.TTHEWS) along and order then to disperse within five minutes, and "before the five minutes have expired, order a baton charge. Some people might be hurt in the process, and our suggestion was that our members must be prepared for that. 5 MR. KENTRIDGE ; Did you have any reason based on anything which you knew ofnto lead you to expect that as a possibility? -L'here have been from time to time experiences of that kind in the history of the African people. 10 " re these experiences which you refer to known among your people? remembered and they are long periods of time. Yes, they are known and they are spoken about, sometimes over Take for example the Bulhoek affair which took place in You still find that 15 discussed amongst the people as an example of the suppression of a movement by the government by the use of force. MR. JUoTIGE BEIKER S How did the Africans view the Bulhoek incident? i They viewed the incident, My Lord, in this sense, that 20 here were a number of people who, quite rightly were in illegal occupation from the point of view of the government of a certain piece of land, but who were themselves completely unarmed. The government eventually after a number of attempts to get them to move, used armed 25 force to get rid of them, and the people look upon that use of force in the circumstances as unfortunate and undesirable. MR. JUSTICE RUMi-FF : I don't quite follow. As far as Bulhoek is 30

31 U.K. MATTHEWS) concerned, were people shot? Yes, about a hundred and seventy people died there, apart from the wounded. MR. JUSTICE BEKKER ; Well? And that is remembered, it is talked about to children and so on, as an incident that 5 has passed into what one might call the political history of the people. What I would like to know is thisl Were there any - was there any enquiry into the rights or the wrongs of the actual shooting, or was it just said well now 10 there is an example that people who were unarmed and they were shot? You don't get that kind of judicial enquiry into the merits of the disputes. Obviously you don't get that from the average person. The emphasis was on the fact of shooting? 15 Yes, and on the fact of no shooting on the other side. MR. KENTRIDGS : What was the sect or group concerned at Bulhoek? This was a religious sect called the Israelites. Do they still exist? 20 You find them in your part of the Cape? Yes, we still find them in our part of the Cape, some of the people inde d who were present at that time are still alive. Have you for instance ever met any of them? 25 Yes, as a matter of fact only recently during my detention in East London I was detained together with one of the people actually in the incident at Bulhoek. And are there other such incidents? We give the details if they are required later. 30

32 (z.k. Matthews) MR. JUSTICE RUMIFF t As far as African opinion was concerned, apart from the emphasis on shooting, was it accepted that - or was it thought that the people who had been shot had been shot without any reason? In the sense that there was no 5 attack or no necessity...? No necessity for the police to shoot. That would be the view of the people. MR. KENTRIDGE I In the minds of Africans and in particular of people in the a.n.c. with rogard to these incidents, did 10 the legality of the situation come up as a matter of any importance? No, as I have said before the question of the merits of the dispute doesn't figure so prominently in the discussions. Usu.ally they are looking at the end result. 15 What is that, as they see it? The end result is tho suffering, the number of people killed and so on. *md who in the view of the Africans who discussed this sort of thing were the people killed? 20 Africans. Africans are usually the sufferers. Did you feel any reason to believe that such incidents night happen again in the course of your campaign? Yes, we have no reason to believe that they will not occur. Naturally I mean we recognise the 25 fact that the authorities usually look at these matters from tho point of view of the maintenance of lav/ and order, and not go into the basic causes underlying these things. Do you think that this way of looking at these 30

33 (Z.K. Ma.TTHEWS) incidents which you have mentioned is peculiar to the A.N.C.? I don't think it is peculiar to the A.N.C. Or peculiar to th'e African people? No. Why dc you say that? I would say for example there are some incidents in the history of the 5 Afrikaners where thuy have adopted a similar attitude towards people who have clashed with the authorities, and they sympathise with the people who suffered rather than going into the merits of whether the authorities were right or wrong in this particular instance. 10 It is a perfectly normal approach I woutd say in regard to people who regard themselves as being subjects to a particular authority. You have said that you had this optimism and at the same time you did bear in mind that the government 15 might react harshly and even forcibly. Did it not strike you that there might be a contradiction in this two points of view? No, there is no contradiction as far as we could see^ on the one hand you have got your policy of non-violence in pursuing your campaign in that way, 20 and on the other hand you have got the expectation that there might be hardship involved in this. You yourself sail in the passage which we referred to, thet this government was relentluss. Now bearing that in mind, would you explain how it was that 25 ycu could be optimistic about your chances of succeeding against it? Well, our optimism was based upon the fact that this is not the only government that has been relentless in the history of political struggle. Other governments have been equally relentless and determined 30

34 (Z.K. Ma.TTHEWS) to - not to give in, to demands made by their subjects. And they have subsequently done so. What sort of countries or governments are you thinking about? I would say an example like India for example. I can recall being in the United Kingdom and 5 hearing Churchill speaking against the possibility of the Indians getting their independence, but it happened in his lifetime. Did you expect a spontaneous change of heart from the government or from the White citizens of this 10 country? No government ever acts spontaneously in - as far as I know, governments usually act as a result of pressure, either from the people who have put them into power, but usually as a result of pressure. They don't just go handing out gifts to people because they happen 15 to be around. Governments don't act like that. What about the White people generally in this country. Did you think that they would have a spontaneous change of heart in their attitude towards Africans? No, we didn't expect that. 20 nwhat did.you think would happen? We felt that we had to adopt forms of action that would influence them, that would make them aware of what was going on. Possibly even effect their own self interests, their pockets. 25 Do you think that type of pressure on Whit e people in this country will work? I think it will work. As far as I know they are human, the White people in this country too. Have you hai any evidence or suggestion 30

35 (Z.K. Ma.TTHEWS) professor that these methols of yours have had any effect on White people? Yes, I think so. I think that it would be true to say that there are more White groups today who are ccncious of the existence of the problems and who are working a change and change outlook towards 5 us. I could mention not only groups such as the Congress of Democrats and the liberal Party, the Frofressive Party, but even in circles such as Sabra, which is a proapartheid organisation, even in that organisation you find that there is a move, - things in South Africa are 10 not as they ought to be and something ought to be done about it. Have you seen any evidence that economic pressure brings about any result? In this country? Yes, economic pressure brings about results. I mean 15 strikes bring results, individual strikes here and there. Do you think the business community in this country is at all sensitive to economic boycotts? I think they are. I think the business community is particularly sensitive. 20 However you did say that the government was relentless and that it might well use force. If the government did use force andcontinued to use force againstyou possibly on a large saale, what did you axriect the result would be in this country? I don't quite 25 i gef! the question. Supposing as a reaction to your Programme of Action the government had 3hot people or imprisoned them or flogged them, did you not think that that would have put an end to your activities? Well, it is 30

36 (Z.K. Ma.TTHEWS) possible, yes. It might have led - if we didn't produce r suits by our methods, it might discredit the A.N.C. in the eyes of the people and the A.N.C. might be followed by a different type of organisation. Did you think at the time in question that the 5 White people in this country would tolerate an unlimited use or force by their government? No, we didn't think that that would be the case. As I said before, I think the Whitepeople in this country are also sensitive to human suffering and wc feel that they would have acted 10 and brought influence to bear upon the government to deal with the situation differently. MR. JUSTICE BEKKilE : Th^re is something I would like to debate with you here, professor. In your view, if the franchise 15 were given to everybody over eighteen years, would that mean the end of what is called White supremacy in this country? Yes, I think it would. White supremacy as such. Did -- I would like to know what zhe approach 20 of the African mind was to the possible reaction on the \part of White su prems cy o n. this demand? In other words, \ did the people think well, our demand involves something which will bring an end to White supremacy in this country. Was the question considered, what would the reaction be of V.hite supremacy to this demand? Yes, I mean what wo would say to that is this, we did not expect as I say that Y/hite supremacy would readily concede these points, This opens the real point of debate. Would 30

37 (Z.K. Ma.TTHEWS) it, if that was the demand, would pressure, in the mind of the Africans, would pressure suffice? Economic pressure? Yes, certainly, we think it would suffice. We think that even the Shite supremacy is not impervious to political pressure and economic pressure. The 5 thing is that up to now it hasn't been used to a sufficiently - on a sufficiently wide scale, and sustained over a sufficiently long period. In other words, we feel that as the A.N.C., we are still a weak body, but if that we were stronger than we are now, even the 10 White supremacists would talk. The power you command, as you said yesterday, ihver labour. That would be enough to bring White supremacy to its knees? It is not a question of to its knees, but it is a matter of negotiation, of f^^ing. 15 I mean the suggestion that you bring people to their knees is that we have the idea of wanting to dominate them and becoming the top dog. That is not the idea of the a.n.c. Did the A.N.C. consider how the White man would 20 regard that claim? In the sense, well, if the A.N.C. demands that, they want to dominate? No. Our case is that to the extent that we in the A. N.C. stand for a policy of full citizenship rights for all, we are not out for domination. 25 Might not the White man s^well, once that happens it is finished, the A.N.C. will dominate? No, we have got experience of this kind of thing in otherorganisations. For example, take Church organisations. We have got plenty of churches in this country

38 (Z.K. Ma.TTHEWS) in which the African have a dominant vote in the Church as compared with the White members of the Church, but they haven't abused that vote and tried to dominate that particular Church. That is from the point of view of the A.N.C. 5 I am rather trying to find out did the A.N.C. consider whether the White man, rightly or wrongly, that doesn't matter, whether the White man not say well, once everybody has got the vote in this country, the inevitable will happen, the Black man will rule the country and the Black 10 man will dominate? We would say that was a mistaken view. It wouldn't be a case of one group ruling the country, that is not what we envisage. You say it might be a mistaken view...? But it would be a view held, yes. 15 On the part of the White man? And how would that White man holding that view - how would he react to this claim? Was that considered^ That I can't say. I can't speak for him as to how he would react. He might react 20 anyway, it is your view, but the matter I suppose wasn't considered in this light? No, it wasn't consi ered in that light. MR. KENTRIDGE ; Professor, have there been countries with - 25 White populations - where White populations have taken a similar view of non-white advance? What was the position for instance in Tanganyika? Well, in Tanganyika and Ghana and Nigeria and all those countries, the authorities responsible for those 30

39 (Z.K. Ma.TTHEWS) countries for a long time took the view that they could not grant self government to Miose countries, but eventually they did so. In those countries you have just mentioned, was there any violence as far as you know? Not as far 5 as I know. It wasn't a violent change. MR. JUSTICE BUMIFF s What happened, do you say, about the difference between those countries and South Africa? Yes, I recognise that. 10 Whatever the form of government, I take it this government obtained self government quite a long time ago? A government by Whites? That is right, yes. I would say that we do recognise the difference between 15 those countries and this country, only what we would wish for and what we are working for here is an extension of the advantages of self government to a wider group of people. MR. KENTRIDGE s 20 Once again, Professor, may I refer you to a phrase which one hasoften found in the speeches and documents in this case. Your followers, in certain speeches and documents, many of them I think, are called upon to be prepared to make sacrifices? 25 Why were you stressing that always or so frequently? Why would people in the A.N.C. like volunteers and others have to be prepared for sacrifices? Well, 'working for political emancipation, anywhere, has always involved sacrifice. It involves the sacrifice 30

40 (Z.K. Ma.TTHEWS) your time, your money, in working for the organisation. It might involve hardship in the form of imprisonment, because of being misunderstood by the authorities. It might even involve death, and it is necessary to warn # j people about these possibilities. 5 ^oes it involve sometimes financial sacrifices? Or the loss of a career? Dismissals from posts and so on, that happens. ii.nd you don't conceal those hardships from 10 your people? We don't. I think it would be dishonest to conceal those possibilities from our followers. You as an accused at the Preparatory Examination, listened to the reading out of certain speeches in Court? tory. I did. 15 You heard some hundreds of speeches read out? Yes, I heard a lot of speeches read out at the Preparr\_ Speeches by people alleged to be A.N.C. members? 20 Over the period 1952 to 1956? Were those speeches which were read out, would you say they represented the total number of speeches made by AJSN.C. members during that period? No, I would say that at the Preparatory there was a very 25 small proportion of the total number of speeches made by members of the A.N.C. in the country that were read out. In the Cape during the period we have dealt with, can you give us an idea of the number of active 30

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