(N. MaNDKLA) to convey to the masses the information he has gleaned, or has observed as a result of having these lectures,

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1 (N. MaNDKLA) to convey to the masses the information he has gleaned, or has observed as a result of having these lectures, should these lectures not have "been absolutely in conformity with fact? You see, you quarrel about the use of the word "only" and you quarrel about this other bit. You 5 see, speaking for yourself, could the danger not arise that a person who had got wron ; facts, as far as you knew them, following these lectures would be put in a position wherd he in turn could spread wrong facts? I don't seethat danger at all, My Lord, because of the extent to 10 which the policy of the African National Congress has been explained from time to time. My Lord, I have no hesitation in saying that every member of the African National Congress at least knows what - that the policy of the Congress is one of non-violence Now we get into difficult water. It may be that a member of the African National Congress, who is aware of the policy of the Congress reads this article in the light of that policy. But now what happens to that man, for argument's sake, who roads out this lecture to 20 people, the masses, who are not members of the African National Congress and do not know its policy? Well, if a lecture is read to members of the public by a member of the African National Congress who himself has received the benefit of a lecture, one would assume that when the 25 lecture is given to him, it is of course explained that this is not in accordance with the policy of the Congress, here I don't agree with this statement, here I don't agree with that statement. That is his own opinion and a discussion ensues. My Lord, in a political organisation 30 - at least in Congress - there is no attempt to

2 (N. MANDELA) indoctrinate. You use a lecture for the purpose of stimulating political thinking and clarification of ideas, A lot of discussion ensues as a result and people will express their own point of view, and having regard to the way in which the lecture was handled as far as the members 5 of the Provincial executive were concerned, I assume My Lord that where the author made a statement which we did not agree with, that of course was explaining during the course of the lecture. Can you tell me, this lecture, Political 10 Organisation, was that part of the Congress movement in the sense that the South African Indian Congress also used this and the oth«r Congress members also used this? No, it was an African National Congress lecture, but it may have been distributed, sent to oth^r organisations. 15 Do you know whether it was? My lord, I can't remember now whether it was. I should imagine it was sent, but I can't remember it very clearly. You see, the letter 'B' indicates that it was found in the. possession I think of the South African 20 Indian Congress? Y~s, it is very likely to have been sent, My Eord, BY SIR. JUSTICE EUKPFF : I see by looking at the last paragraph "Building a People's Movement", you sum up there, "a 25 people's movement can only be built,", then one, two, three and so on. It seems that if this document is a study on how to acquire, how to organise a People's Movement. That seems to mi to be the effect of the document. Now I may be wrong, but just glancing at this 30 document, it is an analysis of the nature of the type of

3 (N. M/iNDjSLA) struggle "by a people's movement, and then the form it takes. If you have a people's movement, what forms of struggle could you possibly have employed. Then it deals first of all with the passive resistance and it sets out passive resistance. It then ends that paragraph by 5 saying "the history of passive resistance, especially of Gandhi's passive resistance movement has proved that it is only an effective weapon when it is used to build up tho movement and inspire - and prepare the people for other forms of mass action and mass struggle". This 10 seems to indicate that one possibly could not achieve in the end the political achievement that one wants for a people's movement by passive resistance as such. Prom there the author then goes over to boycotts and agitation and strike action, people's press,and finally the summing 15 up, What is Required for a People's Movement. Now just looking at the document, it seems to me that the question of violence or non-violence is not in the document considered of any importance as such, dealing with the people's movement and various forms of struggle, except 20 that it does not deal at all with an armed rebellion, it doesn't deal with that. It purports to deal with what prima facie is a form of struggle without violence. deals with the pros and cons of the various forms. It Now, under the chapter where it deals with strike action, 25 it deals with the possibility of armed conflict in spite of the workers themselves. Now from the point of view of the Congress alliance, and if this was for purposes of discussion and consideration, wouldn't this lecture have been a suitable occasion for a statement or sugges- 30 tion that in the circumstances here a stay at home

4 f (N. MANDJ3LA) as opposed (?) to a strike, generally speaking, although there may he different circumstances calling for different forms of struggle, and setting out the advantages of a certain form of struggle for a particular organisation. Should that have been stated? I am looking at 'this 5 merely as a man who reads this? My Lord, I think first we have to take account of the fact that these lectures were issued shortly after the Defiance Campaign, and during the course of that campaign there was a tremendous amount of emphasis on the non-violent nature of our 10 campaign, and it can he assumed, My Lord, quite rightly that everybody who followed the development of the Defiance Campaign at that time knew that one of the most vital principles upon which that campaign was being run was non-violence. And it is quite conceivable therefore 15 that the person who prepared this lecture in view of this tremendous amount of political education on the Defiance Campaign, thought it unnecessary to highlight that aspect in a document like this. You see, it doesn't stress anywhere the 20 importance of non-violence? I am saying, My Lord, because of this amount of political education or explaining the importance of non-violence as a method of political struggle which was conducted during the Defiance Campaign, he may h,ve thought it unnecessary 25 to raise the question of non-violence in a lecture of this nature, because already there was a great deal of education on tha aspect. Buthe does in fact refer to passive resistance, except that of Course he f^els that it is a method with limitations, he does refer to that. 30 If I may say also, the impression that one

5 (N. MANDiSLA) gets from the lecture as a whole or the document as a whole, is that in the words of the document itself a people's movement must not be bound to rigid forms of struggle, Onco you do that you make a very big mistake, because the situation may change, everything can change. 5 And then in the first paragraph it says that the plant that does not bend before thj storm snaps. That means that if the plant has to face certain winds against which it cannot stand up for the time being, as long as that wind blows it must bend, and thereafter it can get up 10 again, and then it also says in the end that a people's movement can only be built by militant struggle, in the course of which local issued close to the people are constantly related to the struggle as a whole, and by being flexible about forms of struggle, always watching 15 to see whether new conditions and circumstances do not call for new forms of struggle? ' : ell, firstly My Lord, th^re is nothing inconsistent with the policy of the Congress in both those statements, because we don't tie ourselves to any particular method of struggle in 20 the sense of saying we shall employ only the Defiance Campaign. Vj do say as a matter of principle that we don't want viol^nc^. As far as that is concerned, there is no question of tactics, th.re is no ^qestion of saying that that question will be determined by conditions, 25 it is not a question of tactic. It is a question of fundamental principle. Is it a question of fundamental principle in relation to the principle that one should not be rigid? No, that principle do^s not in any way over- 30 ride this fundamental principle or qualify it...

6 (No MANDELA) Why shouldn't it? As far as that, we have made that clear, My Lord, that our policy is one of non-violence irrespective of the conditions, irrespective of the fact thatthe authorities will use'force, we will still stick to non-violence, because we believe as 5 a matter of policy that we can't build a new South Africa on a legacy of violence, of bloodshed. We believe in that as a matter of a cre^d, it is our creed. Now here... I think your answer might possibly be that if it had been intended to include violence as such, it 10 would have contained a paragraph on armed revolt or something like that, which it doesn't. It merely deals with matters which prima facie are unaccompanied by violence, except in the question of the strike. BY MR. HOJIXTER s 15 The concluding paragraph is called Building a People's Movement. Will you Just read that through quickly and see whether that is fully consistent with the point of view of Congress as you know it? Yes, this is consistent with Congress policy, of course with 20 the qualifications that I have made. Yes, that it should be non-viol-nt. In returning to the paragraph we havu just dealt with about strikes, th-re is another paragraph called The People's Press. It says "At every stage of political struggle 25 the pr^-ss supporting a people's struggle plays a great role. It explains the aims of the struggle to the whole country, organises and wins new support for the struggle. It acts as a constant voice carrying the views of its leadership to the rank and file of the struggle. The 30 press is a vital part of the agitation which must

7 (N. MANDELA) surround ov.-ry struggle. It can only fulfil its role to its utmost if it receives the full support of those engaged in the struggle in the form of n^ws, views and sales of the paper." Would that he consistent with Congress policy? Well of course he might refer here 5 to a press which is controlled and expresses the point of view of the political organisation. If he refers to that, of course, that is so. In the course of Congress political struggle, was there a press supporting the people in the manner 10 here described? We had a press which gave expression and which published our point of view as much as it could. Would you please mention each and every paper or journal which you - which to the best of your 15 knowledge answered the requirements outlined in this paragraph? Well, as far as we are concerned, we sent our news to almost every ress. I must point out again that it says it supports those engaged in the struggle in the form of 20 news, which you have just mentioned, and also views, and it acts as a constant voice carrying the views of its leadership to the rank and file in their struggle. Now bearing those requirements in mind, what papers do you say fulfilled this? I dcn't know if any one paper 25 fulfilled this, certain papers did in comparison with other papers, ve us more publicity. What was the best paper from the point of view of your struggle? Well, the New Age did so, but there are other papers like the Bantu World at times, 30 although they are hostile papers, but at tim-s they gave

8 (N. MANDELA) publicity to ur point of view, the Post did so... I want you to concentrate on the more friendly papers first, not the hostile ones? It depended on the issue. On the Defiance Campaign, for example, we got a lot of publicity from the English press, from the Rand 5 Daily Mail, it gave us a great deal of publicity. In fact, when the Defiance Campaign was on, I don't think you could easily distinguish between the columns of the Rand Daily Mail and thoseof the New Age. It depended on the issue. But there are issues which the Mail and the Star 10 wouldn't give publicity to, which the New Age gave publicity to. There are some issues which the New Age didn't give publicity to. Perhaps we can save time if, taking a broad view of the matter, looking at the broad trend of what 15 was written in these papers, what papers do you say came closest to the ideal which is mentioned in this paragraph? I know some issues...? ffif the papers I have mentioned, clearly the New Age did. Well, we put that on top of the list. What 20 else? What oth~r papers? Liberation, Fighting Talk. Pausing there...? The Evening Post in Port Elizabeth I understand is a v-ry friendly paper. One at a time, please. With regard to Liberation, you say it supported the liberation movement 25 as much as it could? Yes. What did you mean by that qualification? Well, there were many articles in the Liberation which attack Congress in no uncertain manner. It was not a mouthpiece of the Congress. It gave publicity to certain 30 views expressed by individuals dealing with the problems

9 (N. MANDiSLA) of the liberation movement. It had occasion to launch a severe criticism of the Congress. Would you say that after New Age, Liberation was the next most important one? I haven't gone into the question of that classification. I am merely saying 5 that there are papers in comparison with other papers which gave us a better coverage. BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF : Haven't we got that already, from other witnesses? I mean, this paragraph obviously envisages a 10 press belonging to the people's movement as such. BY MR. HO JXT-jR s I shall not pursue that, My Lord. You told us I think that you knew a person Tloome? Yes. And to your knowledge, what role did he play 15 in connection with the press? He was the proprietor of Liberation. Do you remember who was responsible for the production of the African Lodestar? The Youth League. Who particularly? I don't know. During 20 my time I think at one time a gentleman by the name of Sefora (?) was responsible. At any rate, th t was an official Congress publication? Youth League publication. Before I read this lecture, Political 25 Organisation, you put the time of its publication at last 1952 or early 1953? Yes. Could you narrow down the possible authors for us? It must have been someone who late in 1952 or early in 1953 was on the Transvaal Provincial Executive? 30 No, not necessarily, members of the Natiorial Executive

10 (N. MANILLA) were asked. Mr. Sisulu for example prepared one lecture and he was on the National iixecutive. What lecture was that? mthat was I think the 1 cture on land. And you cannot remember at all who the I author of this one was? No. Have you read the booklet South Africa's Way Forward? Yes, I have. I want to refer to this Lxhibit briefly. It is B. 79, and a copy was found in your pos^ssion, marked 1 N,R."M, 7. It was read into th^ record at page I just want to put to you for your comment a brief portion of this article, - I take it you studied this manual which the African National Congress urged its members to read? Yes, I have. 1 Dc you approve of its contents? Yis, I approveof its contents. Sofar as you are concerned, does it express the view of the Congress movement generally and the African National Congress in particular? I think it 2 goes beyond Congress policy. In what way? In its analysis of capitalism and imperialism. On page 1237 of the record a portion appears from this book under the heading The Basic Structure, and 2 there the author says"if this ideology of the Nationalists has found support from a section of the voters and become enthroned as the official state doctrine, it is largely because it is rooted in the basic structure in South Africa, having originated long before the Malanites 30 won the 1948 election, A brief analysis of this structure

11 (N. MANDELA) shows that it is characterised by (l) the predominance of financial and gold mining groups in alliance with the big farming interests and closely linked with the British - with British and American imperialism. (2) The amassing by these interests of vast super profits 5 derived from the exploitation of the non-white masses who are regarded purely as sources of cheap labour. They are deprived of land and democratic rights, held in a state of colonial subjection and terror and deliberately denied access to education and the benefits of cigilisa- 10 tion. (3) The granting of numerous concessions and monopolies, for example political representation, commercial opportunities, skilled trades and professions to the European middle and working classes with a view to buying their support in maintaining some stability in 15 this top heavy structure. * Now this analysis by Kotane which I have just read to you, is that what you have in mind when you say that its analysis gives to capitalism a role which is foreign to the analysis of the Congress movement? I can't remember the Con, ress having any 20 such analysis. Today would it be fair to say from your knowledge this analysis wo ild be at least consistent or not inconsistent...? It is not inconsistent. I put this to you because in your examina- 25 tion in chief another document was put to you, N.R.M. 16 that was an article by one Lionel Forman, and I would like you to comment on this briefly, please. The article forms part of the Symposium on the National Question. The particular article was Nationalism in 30 South Africa, by L. Forman. Do you remember that article?

12 in. MANDSLA) I remember. Have you this article before you? I have. New here your comment in chief was, as far as I am aware, you said "I do not agree with the theme of Forman, but the rest I found intensely interesting." Now 5 is there anything in the analysis of Forman which you find at variance with Congress policy? Firstly, page 1 of this document, clause 6, he says we all agree that basic to everything in South Africa is the capitalist system. Primarily the laws of the country are designed 10 to assist the capitalist class in exploiting the workers, "fell, as I have said, Congress has no view on capitalism. All that I want to put to ycu here that it is not necessarily inconsistent in any way with what you know of the Congress policy? No, except that Congress 15 has no policy on capitalism at all. As far as you know? As far as I know. Of cours- the whole theme here, his theme, is that it is the duty of the liberation movement to grant the right of secession to any national group that wants secession. 20 He says that if the Zulus want autonomy, it is the duty of the National Liberation movement to give them autonomy. Now, that view is quite inconsistent with th- policy of the African National Congress. That is the theme of his article. 25 No, I am not sugges ting - I gather what you mean. Before we leave this document, would you look at clause 11, where the author says "But as ia the case of everything, the capitalist class structure (?), the national oppression in turn creates the conditions for the overthrow of capitalism? Yes.

13 (N. MANDjJLA) Now disregarding Congress view, would you subscribe to that doctrine or have you no views on that? I have no views on this, except that my own ideal is a classless society. What exactly do you mean by a classless 5 society? A society without classes. Could you give me an example? Do you refer to a country like the Soviet Union, the regime which is to be found in the Soviet Union today? Well, I refer to a socialist society. 10 Would that be a case in point? I don*"t know if I would necessarily want to imitate the Soviet Union, but I want class rule to go in favour of a classless society. That I appreciate. Can you point to any 15 country in the world which presents the picture of a classless state such as would satisfy you? Well, I know, I am told that the Soviet Union and many other such countries, there is no class rule. What other one? Like China, there are no 20 classes there. Any other countries? In Hungary there are no classes. But my idea is n t to copy any state nor to follow the pattern in any particular state. I am convinced from my own experience that there is a great 25 deal of peace (?) to justify it(?), and I can work for its elimination. Further on this topic of whether there was any analysis by the Congress movement as such about the ills which beset us in this country, I want you to 30 comment very briefly again on another exhibit, N.R.M...

14 (N. MANDELA) «.? I might point out before we pass from this, that the contribution here by Thomas Ngwenyu, a prominent member of Congress, Dr. Symons, a leading member of the Congress of Democrats, in their contributions they repudiate the views of Lionel Forman. 5 Insofar as they deal with secession? Yes, and also insofar as thebasic nature of our problem here. Our problem here is to eliminate racial inequality. Doesn't the article by Symons suggest the same fundamental evil, namely the capitalist system? 10 No, he discusses the question of socialism after the political revolution, but at no stage does he suggest that the programme of the Congress is wrong. In fact, he says it is correct. That is the fight to remove racial inequality, and he says that nothing should be 15 done to divert the movement from that central objective. But he then discusses the question of a social revolution. Do you consider Dr. Symons as an authoritative source on the viewpoints of Congress and Congress policy? Of the A.N.C.? 20 No, of Congressgenerally? I don't regard him as an authority on the African National Congress. No, but as far as the Congress movement generally is concerned? I don't know if we have authorities on the Congress movement generally. I claim 2 5 to be an authority as far as the A.N.C. is concerned, one of the aut orities. At least he is able to speak for the South African Congress of Democrats? I don't know what his views of the members of the South African Congress30 of Democrats are, - what the views of the SACOD members

15 \ (N. MANDELA) are on his ability to speak authoritatively, but I can say that he is cur authority for the African National Congress. Dealing more specifically with the African N tional Congress, I would like you to comment briefly on an Exhibit N.A. 81. CASE REMANDED TO THE 16TH AUGUST, I960. COURT ADJOURNS.

16 court resumes on the 16th august, i960. APPJARANCJS AS BEFORE. NELSON ROLIHlAHLA MANDELA, under former oath; CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. HOEXTaR CONTINUED ; When we adjourned yesterday I was about to put to you two very brief passages in exhibit N.A. 81, the article African Nationalism Today by J. G. Matthews. I want to be very short about this, and the passages I am about to put to you are so brief perhaps you can just 5 follow while I read them. The first passage I want to put to you occurs in the rj-cord at page It says, "The African people are not oppressed solely as a class, they suffer double oppression. They suffer economic exploitation as workers and labourers and oppression and humilia-10 tion as a nation." Now I want to put to you again that this is fully consistent with the policy of the African National Congress as you knew it, with the view? There is no policy - Congress has no view on the question of the African people being oppressed as a class. 15 Then there is one further part of this document I want to put to you, it is the concluding part of the article, and I read from page 3722 of the record, line 18. "No power en earth *ran stop the forward march of the African people and their allies. The Lilliputian 20 efforts of the Malans and others to turn the clock back by means of barbarian and repressive laws are futile." An then he says - and this is the part I want your comment on, "Mankind in the latter part of the twentieth century is ready for a final qualitative leap to a new 30 stage in the advance of mankind." hat do you consider

17 (No MANDELA) ho means by that sentence? I really don't know. I understand him when he says no power on earth can stop the forward march of the African people and their allies. I am with him there. But,... You don't interpret the reference of a 5 final qualitative leap to a new stage...? That I don't really know what it means. As a reference to a communist society? Well, if he refers to a communist society, then of course he is not expressing Congress views. 10 But this has no meaning to you at all? No. Lastly on this topic of whether - what is consistent with Congress view on the question of the class struggle and on the question of capitalism or 15 communism, I want to put one further brief passage to you, you mentioned yesterday an author Dr. Symons whom you said was a member of the South African Congress of Democrats. I want to put to you a brief portion in an article - this is one of the summer school lectur-.s - I 20 refer to Exhibit L. B. 35, one of the lectures by Dr. Symons. I am referring to the chapter which is headed Socialism Today. My Lords, this was read into a document which I beli^vo is called the Communist Schedule, it is a bulky document, at page 183, Schedule No BY MR, JUST'IC -. B-eKKER s Do you know anything about this Summer School lectures? I heard evidence about this scho.1 in this case, My Lord. I didn't know. Before this, didyou know? Before that 30

18 (N. MANDELA) BY MR. HOEXTER ; Short of the evidence you have heard in this Court, did you of your own knowledge know nothing about the institution of a summer school at Durban in January, 1954? No, I only heard in the Preparatory 5 Examination. There was evidence in this Court by the witness Luthuli and also by the witness Dr. Conco, and that was news to you? That was news to me. BY MR. JUSTICE BEKKER : 10 What I want to know, was this part of the effort to educate the masses politically? AS far as I understood it. No, at the time, not what you heard during the trial? You don't knowwhether this was part of the 15 campaign to educate the masses? No, My Lord, I regard it as purely Youth League affairs. BY MR. HOEXTER s On page 5 of the original exhibit the author says, "The introduction of a universal franchise represen- 20 ted a distribution of political power but* nly in a strictly formal and limited politicil sense. There could be no really effective distribution of political power over the whole population as l^ng as ec nonic power was concentrated in a small minority of capit lists." Then he 25 says, "The contradiction between the universal franchise and monopoly capitalism inevitably produced a conflict which could be resolved only on the one hand by destroying the parliamentary franchise and so restoring political dictatorship, or on the other hand by destroy- 30 ing private ownership of the means of production and so extending the principle of democracy to include also

19 (N. MANDELA) economic relationship. The former course leads to fascism, the latter to socialism." Would you agree that this passage is consistent with the viewpoint of the Congress movement? No, the Congress has no such viewpoint. I have gone into this question several times in 5 my evidence, My Lords. BY MR. JUSTICE LjjKKER ; The idea to educate the masses politically, was that discussed on national level? Yes, My Lord, it has been discussed several times. 10 When was it first mooted, do you know? As far as I know it was first mooted in 1949 when the Programme of Action was discussed. It may have been discussed even before that, My Lord. Then the question was debated that it was 15 necessary to really educate the masses politically? Yes. Now at that time, were you on the National Executive? No, My Lord, I only came to the National Executive in about Now was it decided or not decided how the masses would be educated politically, that is on national level? Well, I can't remember any specific meeting discussing the matter, but I should imagine... This is on national level? I understand 25 that, My Lord. I can't remember any specific meeting, but- nor can I remember if it was discussed precisely how they should be educated. Of course, My Lords, as I explained yesterday, we have a broad distinction between political education of the masses of the people as such 30 who are politically educated through campaigns, by getting

20 (N. MANDELA) them to participate in the campaigns. As I said yesterday, for example, the Defiance Campaign was also intended to educate the masses... I understand that. I am really trying to ascertain - there are two things, educating members of 5 the Congress. Was the necessity, apart from Congress members, was the necessity of educating the masses also considered? No, I don't remember any specific discussion on that point, My Lord, except that everybody must have taken it for granted that what we planned to do, 10 apart from dealing with specific issues that arise from time to time, that campaigns would automatically be an education to the masses of the people who participate in it. But I can't remember any specific discussion as to precisely, apart from the question of campaigns, as to 15 pr.cisely what steps should be taken to educate the masses as such. We are aware of these various lectures that came into being, the three lectures that you discussed here and the other lectures. Those c me into being, as 20 far as I understand, primarily to educate members of Congress? Yes. As far as Natal is concerned, were there representatives on the National Executive who learnt that it was desirable to educate Congress members - what 25 I want to know is whether one can infer that the summer school lectures were part of the idea to educate the members of the Congress? No, as far as I am aware, My Lord, this summer school was organised solely and exclusively by the African National Congress Youth 30 League, Natal, and it had nothing to do with the African

21 (N. MANDELA) N tional Congress as such. BY MR. HOEXTER s Following up the question His Lordship has just put to you, although on your version lectures were designed to foster discussion, to stimulate discussion, 5 I take it that when the Congress movement as a whole put forth lectures then greater care would "be taken to make sure that nothing contrary or beyond Congress policy was contained in the lectures than would be the case where a single organisation within the Congress movement put forth 10 a lecture? Certainly nothing contrary, but views which go beyond official policy may be allowed to be disseminated and to form a basis of discussion in the organisation. Congress does not restrain the discussion of views even if they go beyond official policy, as long as they are not 15 contrary to policy. And to summarise the effect of your evidence so far, there isn't a single word in any of the lectures that you considered which is in any way contrary to the viewpoint either of the Congress movement as a whole or 20 the African National Congress? depends on the particular lecture. I can't say that, it It is possible that something might slip out which is contrary, but I can't * remember anything, and I think the Congress would act on that basis. 25 BY MR. JUSTICE BeKKER S In your view, as far as the three lectures were concerned, you remember the three lectures? Yes. The World We Live In, etc., did that present a onesided view or was it objectivd in the sense 30 that it presented both dides? No, My Lord, I regarded

22 (N. MANDELA) the lecture of- the lecture as heing a theoretical exposition of certain views. I has been said that those lectures are leftist, whatever that may be? Yes. They are inclined that way, I think Luthuli 5 said so, he regarded them as rather on the left. Now when it comes to a basis of discussion and if those lectures are onesided, how was the basis of discussion to proceed? - I don't know if th ey are onesided, My Lord. I mean they deal with imperialism and this is what imperialism 10 has done, and as it happens I personally agree and I don't think there is anything onesided at all. I think that was an obj ective... There is a complete condemnation of imperialism? Yes. 15 There is nothing to be sad in the lecture in favour of imperialism? No, not as far as I can remember. Do you think there is anything to be said in favour of imperialism? Well, insofar as I have had 20 experiences of imperialism personally, there seems to be very, very little to say for it. You mean there is nothing to be said for the other side? Personally I think very little to be said for imperialism. I mean, in the course of imperialism25 people brought education, they established hospitals and transport and so on... What I am interested in, you use the phrase "basis for discussion". Now if n thing is said in favour of imperialism, schools, hospitals and that type of thing, 30 one would imagine that the basis of the discussion would

23 (N. MANDELA) proceed on one "basis only, and that is that there is nothing to "be said in favour of imperialism, when in fact there is perhaps a little to "be said? Yes, except that My Lord... I just want to finish. How then could it 5 form a "basis for discussion if only one side is given, and not the little, if any, to be said in favour of imperialism? Well, My Lord, these matters are not discussed in a vacuum. I mean if a person is delivering a lecture in a university, you might expect him to deal 10 with all such aspects as the advantages of imperialism, the disadvantages of imperialism. But, these are political lectures, and you look for a formula "because you want to solve a problem. You want to find out whether you want to support an\l institution, a system, or you want to get 15 rid of it. That is the purpose of political action. Now, in our experience, the most important thing about imperialism today is that it has gone all over the world subjugating people and exploiting them, bringing death and destruction to millions of people. That is the cen- 20 tral thing, and we want to know whether we should support and perpetuate this institution whiclj has brought so much suffering. Perhaps I can put it on this basis. Whatever the subject may be, if it is to be an objective 25 discussion one would imagine that you would set out the pros and the cons and then invite discussion? Yes. If however only the cons are set out, wouldn't the basis of discussion proceed on only one basis and that is the cons, there is nothing to besaid for the 30 other point of view? Except that, My Lord, we have

24 (N. MANDELA) long decided our attitude on imperialism, we don't want imperialism, in spite of certain advantages, initial advantages which it might have had... Would it then he fair to infer that what you wanted was that a condemnation of imperialism should 5 he generally accepted? Yes, that is my view. BY MR. JU5TIC.-J RUMPFF : I think my Brother Bekker means in terms of the lectures? I think the lectures unreservedly condemn imperialism, and I think quite rightly so. 10 BY MR. JUSTICE BEKKER s Was it the desire then of the African National Congress that when it came to the topic of imperialism that Congress members should be taught - I shouldn't say taught, - should accept the view resulting 15 from the lectures that there is nothing to be said for imperialism and Hsrtiat is why these lectures were disseminated? Well, I don't think the Congress has ev^r discussed the question whether nothing is to be said for imperialism, but Congress hos condemned imperialism in no 20 uncertain terras, wherever it is found, and to that extent the lectures are consistent with the attitude of Congress. BY MR. HOdXTER s The lectures go further, they say we are against imperialism, and if we look for the source of 25 imperialism we find it in capitalism? Y~s, I have dealt with that already. That you say goes beyond C ngress policy 0 That is so. It is curjbus that that view is expounded 30 in a lecture which all thj congresses together put out,

25 (N. MANDELA) isn't it? Well, we have in Congress a left wing, which holds this type of view. Now it is but natural that the people who hold this sort of view should be eager dso propound these views and to try and interest others in these views. In any large political organisation you do 5 find people who advocate views which go beyond official policy. I believe for example that in the Nationalist Party you can find people who advocate total apartheid, to which the Nationalist Party itself has never committed itself, and it is just but natural. 10 Next I want to consider an article, Africa and World Peace which appeared in the journal Liberation of September, 1953* You were the aut.icr of that article, not so? Yes, I was. My Lord, this is Exhibit G and it was 15 read into the record from page 3461 to I don't want to go through the whole article, perhaps if you would just let your eye run over it to refresh your memory, then I can ask: you one or two general questions. The first quvjstion is, is this fully consistent with the 20 policy of the African National Congress? No, it is c nsistent with my own views. BY MR. JUSTICE EEKKSR S You wrote this article, what was it intended for? It was an address to the South African Peace 25 Council and it was then subsequently published in the Libe ration. BY MR. HOEXTER i And the 'intention of this article was to advance the peace movement in this country and so also 30 the national liberation struggle in this country? Well,

26 (N. MANDELA) it was an address to the Peace Council, and I was asked to address the Peace Council and I agreed. My purpose of addressing the Peace Council was just to cmply with their request. But tell me, you were a supporter of the 5 Peace Movement in this country, were you not? Yes. I repeat the question, didyou write this article with a view to supporting that movement, the Peace Movement, as part of the national liberation movement in this country? I really don't know what that means. 10 I addressed the Peace Council, I put forward these views in response to an invitation from them. I am a supporter of the Peace Council. And you were saying to us yesterday how you see the interrelation between the Peace Movement and the 15 national liberatory struggle? Yes. Is there anything in this article which is inconsistent with the policy of the African National Congress? Not as far as I know. On page 3462, line 14, you say, speaking 20 with reference to Africa, "Here the imperial powers of Britain, Belgium, France, Holland, Portugal and Spain have either their chief or their only colonial dependencies. The internal contradictions and conflicts within this imperial camp are broadening daily. In 25 their drive for ever greater profits these imperial nations vie fiercely with one another for mortpoly control of raw materials and markets. The intensification of the armaments drive and war preparations and more and more interference by the United States of America 30 in the affairs of its satellites now arouses the

27 (N. MANDELA) dissatisfaction of the ruling circles of those countries." Then a little later on, I think at the foot of the page, "In their mad lust for markets and profits these imperial powers will not hesitate to cut one another's throats, to "break the peace, to drench millions of innocent people in 5 blood and to bring misery and untold suffering to humanity." Then under the heading of Africa as a War Base, you say ; "To protest their markets and investments, to crush the national liberation movements and forestall the rise of revolutionary democracy in Africa, America and her satel- 10 lites have established military bases all over the continent." Now "to forestall the rise of revolutionary democracy in Africa," did you content to convey by the phrase "revolutionary democracy" what you later intended to convey in your article on the Liberal Party? That is 15 to say not merely political democracy, but a democracy involving economic changes as well? Profound changes. Including changes of the economy of the country? In the sense indicated in the Freedom Charter. What do you mean when you say that the 20 "internal contradictions and conflicts within this imperial camp are broadening daily"? Internal rivalries, that is what I mean. How are thos3 rivalries to be resolved? To be eliminated? By eliminating colonialism, imperialism.25 Then later on in this article I see you say - I read from page 3464, line 7, "This is the true explanation of the callous determination by and the indecent haste of the British Government to ram down the Federation scheme in Central Africa in spite of the 30 United Opposition of the African population in those

28 (N. MANDELA) territories. This is the true explanation of the bitter conflict now raging in Kenya between imperial Britain whose aims - whose aim is to rob those people of their land and the people of Kenya who are fighting to save their country from being transformed into a military 5 base. Here in Kenya we have a real war waging, and since this sordid affair has provoked the profound indignation of all patriots of Africa, there is a danger of the conflict spreading to all parts of the continent." Did you see the struggle by the people of Kenya, that is by the 10 landed people of Kenya, as part of the liberatory struggle the world over? Well, I Sayct it 4s a matter of grave concern to all people who favoured national independence and freedom. So much is clear. Did you se; their strug- 15 gle as being part of your struggle? In the sense of our opposition to imperialism and colonialism. On the meaning of "internal contradictions", I would like you to look briefly at a document in your own handwriting, I think it was prepared by you in the course 20 of your studies - My Lords, I refer to N.R.M. 21, and the portion to which I shall refer the witness has not been read into the record. That is your handwriting? Yes. Those are notes prepared by you? Yes. 25 On the lofthmd page I have marked a portion with a cross, and that portion reads as follows x "The second defect in the evolutionary ideas of most bourgeois thinkers is that they regard the process of development as a smooth, continuous and unbroken process. They see 30 the process of transition from one evolutionary stage to

29 (N. MANDELA) another as taking place through a series of gradations without conflict and without any br^ak in cnntinuity. But continuity is not the law of development. On the contrary, periods of smooth, continuous evolutionary development are interrupted by sudden abrupt changes, the 5 emergence of the new stage in development takes place when the conditions for it have matured by a break in continuity, by the leap from one stage to another.2 Then a reference is made to the theories of Heigel, and then about ten lines further on s "This prejudice in favour of 10 a smooth line of evolution has gone hand in hand with the liberal belief that capitalist society will evolve smoothly through ordinary bourgeois progress. To have thought differently about evolution in general would have implied that we would have to think differently about 15 social evolution in particular. The dialectical materialist conception of development - dialectical materialism considers the universe in continuous process of development, it considersthis development as a process in which phases of gradual evolutionary change are interrupted by 20 breaks in continuity, bythe sudden leap from one state to another, and it seeks for the driving force of this universal movement within the in&er contradictions, the opposite conflicting tendencies which are in operation in every process of nature and society." Then 25 it ends, "In its proper meming dialectics is a study of the contradiction within the v^ry essence of things development is the struggle of opposites." All I want to know is whether the contradictions, the internal contradictions to which you refer in your article Africa and 30 World Peace, the internal contradictions within the

30 (N. MANDELA) imperial camp, whether these are the same internal contradictions which appear in this note in your handwriting? No, contradictions in the sense in which I have used them in the article merely means conflicts, which we have observed with our own eyes. 5 Does this passage refresh your memory as to the sudden leaps - doesn't this refresh your memory as to a possible meaning which may have been i n the mind of J.G. Matthews when he wrote the article on Nationalism to which you were referred? It really doesn't, because 10 I just don't understand what that is all about. It is all mumbo-jumbo to you? In the sense that I don't understand exactly what he is trying to convey, BY MR. JUSTICE B-eKKER s 15 When did you make these notes? These notes, My Lord, I think I made them in BY MR. H0EKT-4R : Yesterday you told the Court, in discussing the merits and demerits of the use of force, you told their20 Lordships that although the use of violence might result in success sooner, that notwithstanding the A.N.C. was committed to a course of non-violence, although that might delay ultimate success? Yes. I want to refer ycu to Exhibit J.D.M. 9, 25 this is an African Lodestar, the issue of December, On page 6 of this edition there is an article headed The British.elections, which is frankly uncomplimentary to Mr. Churchill and the concluding portion of this article says;"the African must prepare for a really stiff 30 fight ahead and must remember that with Churchill and others

31 (N. MANDELA) of his ilk there can be no compromise. A militant struggle to enable a seizure of pow.r to be effected in the shortest possible time is the only way of handling imperialists. That is the task to which we are called by the coming into power of the Conservative mob." I 5 want to put to you that it was the policy of the African National Congress that a seizure of power should be effected in the shortest possible time? Well, firstly My Lord, if seizure of power means a forcible taking over of political power by the Congress, then of course that is 10 contrary to the policy of Congress. question in full yesterday, My Lords. I explained this I can only add that one of the reasons why the Congress has deliberately adopted this policy of non-violence, even if it is going to take a longer time, - we have been prepared by the effect 15 that this country, inspite of its motto 'ex unitate vires", even with regard to the Europeanpopulation, it is a house divided against itself. The animosity that exists between Afrikaner and English is absolutely startling. Day in and day out we find cabinet ministers BY MR. JUSTICE KUMPFF : It is not necessary to go into this sort of thing. You haven't said why you don't want to use force - sorry, you have said why you don't want to use force, that you said yesterday. ire you on the same topic now? 25 I am on the same topic. You repeat what you said yesterday? Yes. BY MR. HOEXT-iR i You are not on the same topic. How do you understand "seizure of power" there? ell, if zeisure 30 of power there of course means force, then it is contrary

32 (N. MANDELA) to the policy of congress. My question to you there was how you understood it? I think it is capable of a number of interpretations. It may conceivably mean that the government being voted out of office by voters and the Congress move- 5 ment coming into power. ^on't give me all the possibilities. All I want to know it, as you read that phrase, what is the likeliest interpretation which springs to your mind? My own reading of it, I don't read any force and violence 10 in this phrase. I see that the same phrase, "seizure of power" appears in another document, E.P.M. 29, which is a roneod or cyclostyled document. Would you look at it please? I refer you to page 3, the short paragraph which says, 15 "We have got to realise that we are aiming at a seizure of power over the whole country, and thus should be our outlook. In our programmes we have achieved this, but not in our organisational thinking." This document is called Memo on the Draft Constitution. Just tell me 20 whether you recognise the document? My Lord, this document was read into the record at page 2619? My Lord, once again I don't read any force and violence in this phrase, and if it does, my attitude is the same. Df you recognise that document? I don't 25 really... Have you ev«.r read it before? I don't remember reading it before, My Lord. I may have read it, but I just can't remember. I know of course My Lords that there is - there was found in my possession a document 30 which subtly criticised one of the drafts to the constitution.

33 (N. MANDELA) And one of the points made in that criticism was that that particular draft tended to emphasise terminology and the structure which is somewhat left and quite foreign to the African National Congress, but I can't remember the particulars. 5 I wait to put to you a brief portion of an article which has been quoted before. The article is Facing Kenya, by H. Makgothi. It appears in an African Lodestar of October, My Lords, this was read into the record as A.M.K. 66 and the portion I wish to put to 10 the witness occurs at page 2582 of the record. Do you remember this article? I have heard it quoted in Court, If you would just turn over the page, at the top of the page - I read now My Lords from line 17 on page 2582, there is a portion which begins : "What is the significance of the struggle of the people of Kenya for the youth and liberation movement of South Africa? 1 4 The struggle of the Kmkuyu is our struggle. Everyone of the demands of the Kenya African Union is the demand of the democratic people of our own country. This correct 20 analysis was made by W.M. oisulu who was instrumental in the creation of the Kenya Committee to arouse public opinion in Britain against the crimes being committed in Kenya against innocent Africans. 2. A National Liberation Mov ment is a long and protracted struggle for in the 25 age of imperialism murder and violence become the order of the day and the people must wage this struggle in methods which the oppressor forces upon them. This is the fundamental precis and the correct message of N. Mandela, No Easy Walk to Freedom, A.N.C.Y.L. publica- 30 tion." What I want to put to you here, Mr. Mandela, is

34 (N, MANDELA) that in the view of the Congress movement the oppressed people are compelled to waga the struggle in methods which the oppressor forces upon them? Precisely. In other words, in a given situation where the oppressed people have resorted to force, that may be 5 the fault of the oppressor, because it is the only course left open to the oppressed people? It may be. But of course in our own country here, the method forced upon us by the oppressors is the one of non-violence which we have taken, for reasons which I have already gone into. 10 I want to consider the next document which was found in your possession, N.R.M. 57. This is a bulletin New Age, a political monthly. I am told that this is the official publication of the Congress Party in India, is that correct? That is so. 15 And I want to put to you analysis - a political analysis which occurs on page 11 of this journal. My Lords, this was read into the record at page The passage to which I shall refer occurs in the course of an article called Stalin, Great Friend of the Oppressed 20 Peoples of the East. Mr. Mandela, I want to read certain portions of this article to you, and I want to discover from you how far this coincides, this political analysis coincides with the view of Congress as you know it. Page 11, about the middle of the page, there the author says, 25 "The national liberation movement of the peoples of the East today has a number of distinctive features which sharply demarcates them from the movement in the past. Firstly, the struggle is not confined to one or two countries, but is being waged in some form or other 30 everywhere in Asia and Africa." I take it you agree of

35 (N. MANDELA) course so far? This is of course purely a statement of fact. I accept it as a fact, not as a point of view of Congress. Well, do you know whether this is Congress view or don't you? 5 BY MR. JU5TICj] RUMPFF : That part is purely fact. BY MR. HOEXTER s As Your Lordship pleases. "Secondly the struggle is not confined to the upper classes onlyl The 10 national bourgeoisie and the educated middle class have acquired the character of a mass struggle, a struggle of all anti-imperialist classes and sections, the working class, the peasantry who form the overwhelming bulk of the colonial population, the artisans, merchants, industrial- 15 ists, in fact of all classes and elements except the feudal and monopolist bourgeoisie, allied to the imperialists." Ahy comment? This is also a question of fact. There may of course be differences in emphasis. Leave that paragraph, let us read a little 20 further. "Thirdly it is no longer a struggle for minor reforms, but against colonial rule, against imperialist domination itself"? Also a question of fact. Tlx t I take it you accept? As g, question of fact, and of course Congress is not striving for minor 25 reforms. "Fourthly the struggle for national liberation is getting more and more linked with the struggle for basic agrarian reforms, for liquidation of feudalism, which constitutes the main support of imperialism in the 30 colonial and dependent countries". Any comment? Well,

36 (N. MANDSLA) I don't know what he has in mind in this sentence, but of course as I havt occasion to say on several occasions, the African National Congress is struggling to attain the demands set out in the Freedom Charter. I read on. "Fifthly, the working class and 5 its party, the communist party, is playing an increasingly important role in the national liberation struggle, have become the guiding force in several colonial countries and are leading the movement towards people's democracy"? That may be so, the Congress has no view on that. 10 "Sixthly, the struggle is becoming more and more; intense, rising to higher and higher levels, and has already assumed the character of a war of national liberation as in Vietnam"? That is also a statement of fact. 15 BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF ; Except this, that the use of the word "level" "tere tends to imply a war as being a level of the struggle. I am putting this to you, because we have heard about the "higher levels" to which a struggle could be raised? 20 My Lord, it is also a question of terminology here. I mean "highv.r level" in no way indicates necessarily a war. But th^j author of that particular article seems to accept that a war may be a level, a certain level of the struggle? My Lord, that is his opinion. As I 25 have said, as far as we are concerned here, we don't regard war as ahigher level at all. In fact we think it will bo... Your answer is that that may be the opinion of the author of that article? Yes. 30

37 (N. MANDELA) BY MR. HOJXT-jR : I think your answer yesterday, Mr. Mandela, was that whatever makes the struggle more effective is a higher level o struggle, but in this country war is precluded because of your policy of non-violence? Yes. 5 The policy of non-violence apart, disregarding that for the moment, and taking a broad view of the liberation struggle the world over, it may be correct in another country to describe the waging of a national war of liberation, - it may be correct to describe that as a higher 10 level? I have never quarrelled with that. The point th^t I want to make is that as far as we are concerned here - and weare not the only 03untry - in India they attained their political independence by using the method of passive resistance. In the Gold Coast they have attained 15 their independence without even arms at all. In Nigeria they are on the way to attaining theirindependence and in many other states in Africa, they have never used arms. War has never been the highewt form,, Well, this possibility soemed to have been 20 contemplated. You find this description here - he talks about Vietnam? That is so. I mean war was used there... He has described it as a higher level? If he described it as a higher level, that is his own personal view to which I don't subscribe, and certainly 25 mt is not the view of the African National Congress. BY MR. JUSTICE BiiKKSR : Could one accept the position in the countries you have mentioned as a parallel to the position in South Africa? Why not, My Lord? 30 Well, here you have for instance a multi-racial

38 (N. MANDiSLA) society, with White supremacy dominating everything? Well, I don't see the distinction at all, My Lord. As I say, as I have "been repeating here, the policy which we are using is yielding results already. We are isolating the Nationalist Government, and I think that the Nationalist 5 Government today is much more weaker than it was when we began - before we began with our policy of exerting p r e s su re. I meant to put this to you. The aim of the Congress movement, a4, I understand it, is to end once 10 and for all White supremacy? That is so, My Lord. That I take it could be ended on the one man, one vote, basis? Yes. If every African, subject to age qualification gets a vote, would it "be coriect to suggest that the only 15 result would be an end to White supremacy as we understand it today? That is so, My Lord. I also understand that the claim, one man one vote, is an absolutelclaim, in the sense that there is no room for compromise on that? Except as I gave an 20 illustration, My Lord. Y^s, it will take time, but whether it takes time or not, the aim is everybody to g^t the vote? That is so, My Lord. Now, the difference which I want to discuss 25 with you, if it is a difference, between the countries you mentioned and South Africa, is it not perhaps in this, what would you - what would the reaction of White supremacy be if it was made to realise that the demands of the Congress alliance would result in its supremacy being 30 terminated once and for all? Well, that has been a

39 (No MANDELA) problem all along, My Lord. x hat may be, but what do you think the reaction of White supremacy would be to that claim? 7ell, for all I know they may be hostile to that t"~pe of thing. Buc already political organisations are arising 5 in this country which themselves are striving for the extension of the franchise to the African people. "'"hat may be, but during the indictment period, you see you have got to look at the position at that stage, what I want to know from you is this, I don't know whethjr 10 the Congress alliance ever considered the matter. Did the Congress alliance consider what the reaction of White supremacy would be to the claim one man one vote? Well, that has been considered, My Lords. What was its views? Well, the view of 15 the authorities of European political parties has been expressed in regard to this demand, in the sense that they havu expressly said that this, the realisation of this demand would of course mean domination by non-europeans, and to that extent they won't agree to it. 20 Was that discussed by Congress? That hasn't been discussed by Congress, we know that. You know that? We know that. But the attitude of the Europeans is not important as far as we are concerned from the point of view of knowing that this 25 is a right which we should enjoy, and we m.an to get it notwithstanding the attitude of White South Africa, by themethods which we are using. Well, the question is now whether you can ever achieve that by the methods you are using? No, 30 but My Lord this is what I am coming to, that already since

40 (N. MANDELA) we applied these new methods of political action, this policy of exerting pressure, we have attained - we have achieved?, we have won ground. Political parties have now emerged which themselves put forward the demand of extending the franchise to the non-europ-an people. 5 Unqualified franchise? One man, one vote? No, no, My Lord, it is qualified. I would like to discuss this with you...? If Your Lordship could give me time? Now, it is true that these parties, "both the Liberal Party as well as the 10 Progressive Party are thinking in terms of some qualified franchise. But, if Your Lordship bears in mind the fact that when we initiated this policy, there was no political parties - none in the Union which thought along the lines, then Your Lordship will realise the revolution that has 15 taken place in European parties in this country today. You are now having an organised body of the opinion, quite apart from the Congress of Democrats, who themselves are a force, quite apart from them, you are having an organised body of opinion amongst Whites who put forward the view 20 that some limited form of franchise should be extended to Africans. I don't think we are quite on the same - let me put it this way, wavelength. During the indictment period, did or did not - I think you said it was accepted 25 by the Congress alliance that White supremacy would be hostile to this claim, one man one vote? Yes, it was hostile, except to qualify of course that even during that period parties had already emerged which were putting forward this view, and therefore it was reasonable for us 30 to believe that in spite of the hostility which we still

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