Are you presently detained in terms of the provisions of the 90 days detention provisions? --- Yes.

Transcription

1 A.H.V. 7. IN THE SUPREME COURT OF SOUTH AFRICA. (TRANSVAAL PROVINCIAL DIVISION). PRETORIA: th January, BEFORE: The Honourable Mr. Justice DE WET. (Judge President). In the matter of: THE STATE versus NELSON MANDELA AND OTHERS. CHARGE: 2 Courts of sabotage. PLEA: ALL Not guilty. For the State: DR. YUTAR AND OTHERS. For the Defence: MR. BERRANGE AND OTHERS. - EXTRACT OF EVIDENCE THE COURT IS CLEARED FOR THIS WITNESS. ABEL MTHEMBU, declares under oath EXAMINATION BY MR. KROGH: Abel do you live in one of the Bantu villages in Johannesburg? --- Yes. Are you presently detained in terms of the provisions of the 90 days detention provisions? --- Yes. Now were you ever a member of the African National Congress? --- Yes. When did you join the A.N.C.? --- In And did you remain a member all the time? --- Until it was declared unlawful. Do you know when that was? (Mr. Krog asks the Court to warn the witness. BY THE COURT: Tell the witness that the State thinks that he may be regarded as an accomplice with the accused. The law provides that he is not compelled to give evidence, but if he does give evidence and if, in the opinion of the Court, he gives satisfactory evidence, then he is free from prosecution. He cannot be prosecuted on the charges which are now before the Court. --- Yes.

2 -2- So It s up to him to decide whether he will give evidence or not. --- I m prepared to give evidence. (Witness is asked to speak up). EXAMINATION BY MR. KROG (CONTINUED): After the A.N.C. was then officially banned in 1960, did you say, what happened? --- I think it was After the banning in 1960, I attended a conference which was held at Pietermaritzburg. What conference was that? --- National Convention. And do you know when that was? Was there any decision taken at that conference? --- Yes, it was a resolution that was passed by the delegates who attended that conference, that there would be a three-day stay-at-home. Is that a stay-at-home from work? --- Yes. And when was that staying at home supposed to have taken place? --- As far as I can recollect, it should have been in March 1961, the stay away. In March? --- March or May, I m not sure. Do you know when the union became a Republic? --- In 1961, but I ve forgotten the month. And was there any connection between the time of the Union would become a Republic and this stay away? --- Yes, the third day of the stay-at-home would be the day of the Republic. And by whom was that stay away going to be organised? --- Under the leadership of Nelson Mandela. In what capacity would he act? --- He would have been the secretary of the consultative committee. No not the consultative, I don t remember now the name of the committee, but whatever it s name was, that committee would have been under him. Now did you know him at that time? --- Yes. And was he also at that conference? --- Yes, he spoke at

3 -3- the conference. Now can you identify him? --- I can. There he is. Which one? --- The last one on the left-hand side. Accused No. 1. Now when the A.N.C. was banned, was any decision taken by the members of the A.N.C. at that time in regard to the banning? --- The National Executive of the A.N.C. decided, that even though it is banned, it will continue. Continue in what manner? --- It will continue with the activities, but it will be underground. And do you know whether in fact, it did carry in an underground manner? --- That I couldn t be certain about, because then for a long time I was not here. After the Pietermaritzburg conference, did you come back to Johannesburg? --- Yes. And did you stay here for a while and then leave for Basutoland? --- Yes. And why did you leave? --- I was ill. And was that still in August 1961 when you left? --- Yes, I left in August And when did you come back to Johannesburg again? --- In January Now after you returned to Johannesburg, did you see any of the members of the A.N.C. again? --- Yes, I saw Joe Modiso after my return. Did you know him? --- I knew him as a member of the African National Congress and also as a member of the Youth League of the African National Congress. And did you have some discussion with Joe Modiso? --- Yes, he had a discussion with me. What was it all about? (My lord he is one of the co-conspirators). --- He told me that they had formed another organisation called Umkonto We Ziswe, and that that organisation was

4 -4- working together with the African National Congress. He said that on the fifteenth or the 16 th of December 1960, there was some disturbance. BY THE COURT TO WITNESS: What year? th of December 1961, or the 15 th I M not sure. EXAMINATION BY MR. KROG (CONTINUED): What was the nature of this disturbance? --- Sabotage acts were done on two certain government buildings. Where? --- He didn t tell me of all the different places. He mentioned the one at Abe(?) location where Ramutse and Mo- lefe carried out a sabotage act and wherein Molefe was killed. And Ramutsi, do you know what happened to him?--- Ramutsi was injured. That is Item 19 in Annexure B, the acts of violence and destruction. Did you know these two men before? --- Yes, I knew them, they were members of the African National Congress. And when he related this incident to you, can you tell the Court, was there any connection between that incident and the Umkonto? --- Yes. What? --- It was connected with Umkonto We Ziswe. In what way? --- Because, as he informed me that the Umkonto We Ziswe was formed to do certain things with the A.N.C. could not do, it was Umkonto We Ziswe s particular work. When he mentioned this to you, did you question him about this new organisation? --- I then asked him I said is this organisation, the African National Congress, now then an organisation of, shall I call it violence? He said? --- People in the higher position, higher authorities will explain that. Well, why did you ask him about violence? --- Be- cause I knew the African National Congress has an organisation of non-violence. So he told you that the officials higher up would

5 -5- explain that? --- Yes. And did you ever get such an explanation from anybody? --- After that... shortly after that, Joe Modiso took me to a house in Rivonia where I met Joe Slovo... Now this occasion, did you go during the day? --- No, it was in the evening when darkness had set in. And how did you go there? --- By motorcar. Do you know what make of car it was? --- Peugeot. And when you arrived there at this place, did you drive up to the houses? --- We went into the yard, of the premises. And you and Modiso, did you go to a building? --- We went into an outside building which is part and parcel of the premises, but t is a separate place and it had a thatched roof. And did you meet anybody in that building? --- Slovo was there, Walter Sisulu was there. Only the two of them? --- On that day, only those two. Did you know them before? Slovo and Sisulu? --- Yes. And as far as you knew at that time, did they have any political affiliations? --- Yes, I know. Yes, what? --- Slovo, before it was banned, he was a member of the Congress of Democrats. I knew him before he was the General Secretary of the African National Congress, before he personally was banned and before the African National Congress as an organisation was banned. So it was the four of you together? --- Yes. Now do you see Sisulu here today? --- I do. Where? --- I point him out now. Which one? --- The second person. No. 2. Now what transpired there? --- Slovo there explained how Umkonto We Ziswe was formed. He went on to say that Umkonto We Ziswe was a child of the African National Con-

6 -6- gress. Further he said that Umkonto We Ziswe was formed for that portion to carry out sabotage acts, and that they had to take care that people should not get killed or injured. That is, it does not mean member of Umkonto We Ziswe only, all people. Whilst they are committing sabotage acts, they must see that people don t get killed and injured. Yes? --- I then asked him Is it then the case that the African National Congress has now adopted violence. He said that that question was discussed by the Executives of the African National Congress and that the consultative commit- tee of the African National Alliance had also discussed it, of the Congress Alliance. Did you know such a body as the Congress Alliance? --- Yes, I did. Yes, alright, other bodies had discussed it and? --- That an agreement was come to, and he said that the President, Luthuli had also agreed. He said that the struggle had now gone through the first phase and that it is now in it s second phase. Yes? --- And the second phase was that of committing sabotage, but in such a manner that people did not get injured. Now you say these various bodies who had been consulted came to an agreement? --- From what he told, yes. What was the agreement which they had come to? --- BY THE COURT TO MR. KROG: Well, that he said Mr. Krog. He said they had now decided to come to violence. --- Thank you my lord. EXAMINATION BY MR. KROG: (CONTINUED): This body that you refer to as the Congress Alliance, how was that made up? --- It was formed by the African National Congress, Coloured People s Organisation, Indian Congress, Congress of Democrats, and S.A.C.T.U. Did you have any further discussions with Slovo? --- Yes, he continued to say he said that I would be a member

7 -7- of the Regional Command of Johannesburg. That you would be a member? --- Yes, I would be a member of that organisation. Of the Regional Command? --- Regional Command. Did you know what sort of a body that was, at that time? --- At that time, because I was then new, I did not know what it meant. Was it explained to you? --- He said that the leader of the Regional Command, the Chairman, would be Jack Hodgson. Well, it had been formed already, and Jack Hodgson was the chairman? --- He was the chairman. Yes? --- And another member of the Regional Command is Elias Motsoaledi. And did you know him when his name was mentioned? --- Yes. Do you see him in Court today? --- Yes. Where? --- The second person from the other side. No. 9? --- No. 9. Where did you know him from? --- I knew him as a member of the African National Congress. So you would be on the committee, and two others mbmers? --- Yes. Yes, and what else did he say? --- And that my duties would be to recruit Africans of the ages between 18 and, and that they would be recruited for the purpose of going outside the country for training. What sort of training? --- So that they would know about weapons. In other words, military training. And were you told what would happen to them when once they can complete their training? --- After training they would come back and then they would do the work that is being done by Umkonto We Ziswe. Now apart from you being told that your particular task would be recruiting members, were you told of the purpose

8 -8- of this Regional Command as such? --- The work of the Regional Command would be to keep an eye... to administer between the various sabotage groups in the various locations, and in the towns. Would it be a sort of co-ordinating party? --- Yes, it had to take care of it s part of the organisation. Yes, were you told anything else about the Regional Command at that stage? --- I was told that this organisation, Umkonto We Ziswe had to have secrecy, and that I had not to ask any questions to other members, concerning the acti- vities of co-members. Of the Regional Command? --- Of the whole organisation. Now once you were having this conversation with Slovo, where were Modiso and Sisulu? --- They were present. Did they take part in the discussions? --- Yes, they did say something, I don t remember what they said. And was that all that was discussed? --- That is all that was spoken there on that occasion. And did you and Modiso go from there? --- Yes, we went back by car again. We went home. And did it have any regard to your appointment to the Regional Command? --- Modiso took me again after that. We went back to Rivonia again. We went to the same house or room where we had been before, we found Jack Hodgson there. Do you know him? --- I knew him, yes. Do you know whether at that stage he had any political affiliations? --- I knew that he was a member of the Democrats before he, himself was banned. And was he the only one that you met there? --- Yes. Was this during the day or in the evening? --- In the evening. And when you met Hodgson there, what transpired? --- He repeated more or less what Slovo said, confirmed what he said

9 -9- Yes? --- And he then went on further to say that he was the chairman of the Regional Command, and that Matsoaledi was a member of the Regional Command and that I am also a member of the Regional Command and he further said that Matsoaledi would also be on the technical committee... that he and Matsoaledi will be the technical committee. And do you know what the technical committee was proposed to be? --- I don t know what their duties were supposed to be, or what they were going to be. Didn t you ask? --- No, I had already been told not to ask too many questions. The two of them would be on the technical committee, and what else? --- He also mentioned what Slovo had already said, and that was that I was to recruit members, Africans that would go outside the country for training, and after that Joe Modiso and I left, but just before we left, we made an arrangement that Jack Hodgson would be picking me up on the corner of Simmonds Street and Smit Street in Braamfontein. Why? --- Because we had to go to another meeting. Of what? --- Of the Regional Command. And did you fix a date there and then? --- Yes. Now did Hodgson at Rivonia tell you about the duties of the Regional Command as such, not the individual members? --- Yes, he said that the Regional Command would supervise these groups to see that they carry out their instructions. So did you keep your appointment at the corner of Simmonds and Smit Streets with Hodgson? --- That is so, I went there. What time of the day was it? --- After sunset. And where did you go to? --- We then went to No. 23 Empire Road. Where? --- In Johannesburg. Do you know the suburb? --- I m not sure what suburb it is, but it s close to Hillbrow.

10 -- And on your arrival there? --- It was Jack and I alone. Were there any other occupants of the house? --- No, there was noboy else. And the third member of the Regional Command, No. 9, was he there? --- No, not there. What did you and Hodgson do there? --- He told me then that the sabotage groups that were in the location are under Matsoaledi, in other words, Matsoaledi is in charge of them, and those in twon were under his charge, and three groups form a platoon. And that... and then the Platoon leader will be the contact between the groups and the chairman of the... they will contact the person who has to supervise those particular groups. Who is in charge of those particular groups. Who is a member of the Regional Command. The Platoon leader would be a contact between them and the Regional Command? --- Yes. Yes? --- And then he went on also to tell me how black powder is made. Before we go to the black powder. AT THIS STAGE THE COURT ADJOURNS. ON RESUMING: MR. BERRANGE Asks for permission to have tomorrow off, in view of the evidence that the witness is now giving. (Gives further reasons). No objection by Dr. Yutar. MR. COACKER asks for leave to be absented from attending Court for the next four to six weeks, as Mr. Yutar has informed him that no evidence will be led during that period, regarding Accused No. 8, Mr. Kantor. He also informs the Court that his client cannot afford to have him attending Court when he is not required to. Dr. Yutar will inform him before he calls any witness affecting Accused No Permission granted. EXAMINATION BY MR. KROG (CONTINUED): Now Abel, before the adjournment, you told his lord-

11 -11- ship that you had seen Hodgson twice once at Rivonia and once at 23 Empire Road. --- That is correct. And that he had confirmed what Slovo had told you. --- Yes. Now you were then also told about the Regional Command. --- Yes. Were you given any information in regard to the Regional Command, whether it was subject to some other organisations, or it received directions from some other organisations or not at all? --- Jack told me that the Regional Command was under the High Command and that he, himself, was the contact between the Regional Command and the High Command. And were you told who the members of the High Command were? --- No. And were you told where the High Command operated from, or not? --- No. And apart from the fact that he was the contact, and he was the chairman of the Regional Command and that he was in charge of the Johannesburg group of Saboteurs, were you given any other of his functions? --- Also that he and Matsoaledi would be members of the technical committee, but he didn t say what they would do. Is that all you knew about his functions? --- Yes. Right, then you were going on to say something about black powder, after you had this discussion with Hodgson. --- That is correct yes. Will you continue now with what you had to say in connection with the black powder? --- He had with him three packets, brown paper packets. One contained Salpetre, one sulphur and the other one charcoal. Yes? --- Then he showed me how these things were done. And after he had shown you? --- Then I had to make up

12 -12- some to show him whether I understood how to make it up. And did you do so? --- Yes. Now were you told what the object was of this demonstration? --- He told me that the use for that would be, if you want to destroy a particular target, then you use that. Were you told how to use it? --- He explained to me that if you enclosed it into something solid or in a brown paper, and attached a fuse to it, if you then wanted to use it, you will get the result. What result? --- It will explode. After this demonstration, and you in turn made some, what happened? --- He was then satisfied. That was the end of the meeting. The end of the meeting? --- Yes. And did you go home? --- Yes, he took me to Park Station and then I went home. And did you make any arrangements before you left? --- Arrangement was that he will pick me up at this particular spot on the corner of Simmonds and Smit Streets. Now was that all the training that you were to receive up to that stage? --- I said I will get further tuition from Matsoaledi my lord. Did he say in what regard? --- In regard to the same type of thing. So did you keep your appointment with Hodgson? --- We met again there. And were you picked up to him? --- Yes. Where were you taken to? --- Again to No. 23 Empire Road, the same place. And on your arrival there? --- When Jack and I arrive there, we found Matsoaledi and Mlangeni, Nos. 9 and, at the place. Did you know No. before that? --- Yes.

13 -13- Coming back to thise house do you know whose house that was? --- I do not know. Do you know where Hodgson was staying at that time? --- Somewhere in Hillbrow in a flat. Now you have told us now that you knew No., before you met him that night? Mlangeni. Do you see Mlangeni in Court? --- Yes. Which one? --- The last person, No.. And where did you know him from? --- We were fellow members of the African National Congress, and we lived in the same vicinity. So when the four of you met there at that house, what happened? --- Nothing in particular happened, except that Jack introduced Mlangeni to me as the would-be transport officer. The would-be transport officer? --- He was going to be the transport officer. Of what? --- Transport people. He didn t explain from where to where. Yes, but transport people in connection with what? --- No, further explanation, because there were no questions asked. He said he is going to be the transport officer. Yes, and thereafter? --- Nothing happened after that, he just made another appointment that he would meet me on the corner of Smit Street. Alright at the usual place? --- Yes. And did you disperse thereafter? --- Yes, we then separated, and he took me to Park Station. And No. 9 and No.? --- Matsoaledi, No. 9, was travelling on a scooter. No. Mlangeni, didn t go home direct on that day, I don t know where he went to. How did he leave, No.? --- He had a motorcar. Do you know what sort of a motorcar he had? --- Peugeot. You had previously told us that Modiso also travelled

14 -14- in a Peugeot? --- The same Peugeot. Now dod you keep your appointment with Hodgson? --- We met again, yes. And did you go with him? --- On that day Jack went with me to a place that I cannot spot now, it is a new area. Oh, was it a different house, not 23 Empire Road? --- Yes, a different house. And on your arrival there, who gathered there? --- We were three. Matsoaledi was with us. No. 9. Did he go with you? --- No, he went with his dcooter. And what did you discus there that night? --- There was a report received there, the first report was made by Matsoaledi, No. 9. He reported that his section had surveyed a certain target in Johannesburg, that was in his section. I m sorry, in his section which is Pretoria. He surveyed a target in his section, which is not Johannesburg, but Pretoria. Did he mention the target? --- The Old Synagogue. Yes? --- And that a section of the Alexander section, surveyed a certain pylon. Yes? --- And then Jack made a report that his sec- tion that is Johannesburg, his town, that they had surveyed a target between New Canada and Croesus, and he said also that there was another target near Market Street, known as the Old Pass Office. Yes? --- And there was another target that they had surveyed, which was situated between Braamfontein and Johannesburg Station. In regard to these two targets, did Hodgson mention... and which involved the Railways, did he say what was going to be done there? --- Signal cabins were to be bombed there. After they mentioned these prospective targets, what happened? --- No. 9 Accused, Matsoaledi, went further to explain at that stage, that the materials required for these targets.

15 -15- were in supply. The materials required for his target in Pretoria, were on hand, they were in supply. Did you, as the Committee, agree with these targets? --- Yes, the committee agreed that those should be proceeded with. And he said that the stuff that was required, was already in supply. Did he say where it would come from or where it was? --- He didn t explain. Yes? --- Jack further went on to say, that there was a person in one of the sections which are under him, who knew where to go and buy the necessary materials. It s slightly different he said that one of the sections under him in Johannesburg, know of a person who is in a position or who is able to buy the materials, and that they had negotiated with him. And he was prepared to sell the materials to one of the sections. Yes, and did you discuss what would happen to the materials, when once it had been delivered? --- No, we didn t because the section that procured the materials, would arrange themselves what to do with it. Yes? --- Well after the reports were received, there was no other work to be done, and then we separated. And did you see any of your committee again after that meeting? --- It was arranged that he would pick me up again, and take me to the same house where I had been to. Tell me, at that stage, the first meeting at the place that you didn t know where it was, do you know where No. 9 was staying at the time? --- Where his home was. Yes? --- Yes, at Msimthlope(?). It s generally also known as White City. He was working at Eskay Buildings. Do you know this place Eskay Buildings? --- Yes. Where is it? --- Orlando West. And do you know whom he was working for at Eskay Buildings? --- He was working for Doctor Mashiloane.

16 -16- Why do you call him a doctor? --- Because in Sisuthu we only have the word (?-, it is doctor, not specifically specifying the person s qualifications. BY THE COURT TO INTERPRETER: Any sort of doctor? --- Any sort of person who can give medicine. EXAMINATION BY MR. KROG (CONTINUED): Did you... had you been to that place? --- Yes. Whilst No 9 was working there? --- Yes. So did you once more keep your appointment? --- Yes. And where did you go? --- To the same house where we had been on the last occasion, that I can point out. And who gathered there? --- The three of us Matsoaledi, No. 9, Jack and I. And what happened at that meeting? --- There a report was then made again by... both of them reported then that these targets which had to be attacked, it was done. Matsoaledi reported that the Pretoria Synagogue target which was not a success because there was some technical mistake, the target in Alexandra... Now you say No. 9 made a report in regard to the Old Synagogue? --- Yes, it was unsuccessful because there was a technical mistake. Now Abel can you tell the Court more or less what month this was now? --- I m not certain, but I say between February more or less of February, March to May, somewhere around there. That you had this unsuccessful attempt on the Old Synagogue. BY THE COURT TO MR. KROG: What are the numbers of these charges? --- That would be No. 148, as mentioned in the charge, of course, your lordship will notice that the date there is given as January, which does not correspond with this evidence. EXAMINATION BY MR. KROG (CONTINUED):

17 -17- Yes, was any report made in regard to the Alexandra Township target? --- That was not carried out, because that section did not do it s part. They did not do their work. That My lord, is not included in the indictment. Yes, and having made these reports about those two targets? --- Then Jack reported about his targets. Yes? --- The section between Canada Station and Croesus, didn t go off, but that section went to get fresh materials gain... they recovered the same material, because the charge did not go off. Yes? --- And the target the Old Pass Office, that was not a complete success, because the section who did that job, could not get in, the place was too well guarded. So that was not a complete success? --- That is so. Now do you know in which street that place is located? --- If I m correct, it s between Market Street and another street, which I assume is President Street. I m not very certain, but it s between Market Street and the following street. BY THE COURT TO MR. KROG: Everybody won t know where that is. --- My lord I think that is probably 8. I think I can take it that this is one of the well-known landmarks in Johannesburg. EXAMINATION BY MR. KROG (CONTINUED): Yes, and the third one, was there any report in regard to that? --- Yes, Jack said that the target between Johannesburg Station and Braamfontein Station, not Braamfontein I m sorry, Doornfontein and Park Station, as far as he could... in his opinion that was successful, because it went off. I think that is Interpreter: My lord at this stage I must just say that I m certain I interpreted Jo- hannesburg and Braamfontein previously, that is Doornfontein. Alright, after they had made these reports about those targets, what did you do then? --- Nothing happened after

18 -18- that, except only that he further mentioned, Jack, that it appears that the material that is being bought from this unknown person, only known to a particular section, appears not to be good material. It does not appear to be good material. And was any decision made in that regard? --- We then decided that that material should be tested. A test should be made with that material. And was that test assigned to anybody? --- Matsoaledi, No. 9, had to see to the making of that test. He had to arrange it. Was he given a free hand, or was he told where and when to make it? --- He had to find the target and a particular section to do that test. The other item is 149. Croesus. So you left it No. 9, and what happened thereafter? --- He then made the test at the spot between Pumulung(?) and Msimthlope. How do you know that? --- Because on a certain day No. 9 came to me and he had a paper with him. What do you mean by a paper? --- A newspaper. Yes? --- After the test was made and then he told me, that in his opinion, the result of the test was not as it should be. It was not a success. BY THE COURT TO MR. KROG: Is that test listed? --- That test is not listed My lord. EXAMINATION BY MR. KROG (CONTINUED): WITNESS: And then at this last meeting, Jack went further and said that this person who sold these materials to this one particular section in town, that that person was now recruited by one of the other sections, as a member of that section, and he further said that this particular person, had spotted a certain target where he would go and do it himself. He ll go and demonstrate it to show that it was evidently not properly handled.

19 -19- He would go and test his own material? --- To go and show that it is a success. The Regional Command was not satisfied with that, because the section that had recruited this particular person, they said that they were satisfied, this section, that this man was alright. And up to that stage, had you been given that person s name or not? --- Names of sections of names of members of sections are not disclosed. After you received the assurance from Hodgson in regard to this person, what happened? --- Then we left that mat- ter over to the section. And was that the end of the meeting? --- Yes, but just before the meeting ended, Jack told me that there was a message which I had to go and take at Rivonia. That is after that meeting. Then after the meeting I went home... So was that the end of the meeting after he gave you that final instruction? --- That is so, yes. Now did you have any further meetings after that? --- No, because just at that stage, Jack was put under house arrest. And did you ever receive a report again in regard to this so-called test, which would have been made by this other person? --- No, but I read in the Daily Mail, that people were arrested between New Canada and Booysens whilst they were... where they were going to commit sabotage. They were arrested. BY THE COURT TO WITNESS: What did he say about the message to Rivonia? He said something about a message. BY MR. KROG: Yes, my lord he received a message that he had to go and... to Rivonia. I was just lining off his other parts. What he has now testified to that test, I think is Item 184. EXAMINATION BY MR. KROG (CONTINUED): Then did you go to Rivonia, in consequence of what Hodgson told you? --- Yes, I went to Rivonia. When I arrived there, I went to the small house outside.

20 -- Did you go there alone? --- I was alone. Yes? --- On my arrival there, I found Govan Mbeki there. Do you see him here in the Court? --- Yes. Where? --- No. 4 there from the left. And did you know him? --- Yes, I knew him. In What connection? --- I knew him as a member of the A.N.C. and he was living in Port Elizabeth. How do you know that he was living in Port Elizabeth? --- I read about him in New Age many times my lord. Apart from No. 4, was there anybody else? --- Walter Mgwai... Wilton Mgwai(?), Kathrada. Now these last two, do you see any of them here in Court? --- Wilton is not here. Yes? --- Kathrada is No. 5. And had you known him previously? --- I knew him previously. Where from? --- I knew him as a member of the Indian Congress, before he personally was banned. So, when you found these two there, what happened? --- I spoke to Govan, he then told me that I had to go and meet people at Germiston who were coming from Natal. Coming where to? --- They were people... they were recruits that had to come up to go out of the country for training. And where did you have to go and meet them? --- If I remember correctly, there were three different groups to be met. One was on the fourth, the second was I think the 11 th, and another one, if I m not mistaken, on the 18 th. 4 th, 11 th and 18 th to the best of my recollection. Yes, they told you you had to go and meet these people, and what else? --- I think it was May. Yes, what else? --- He said when I arrived there to meet them, I will be able to recognise them by the fact that their

21 -21- leader, will have a small umbrella which he will open and close, open and close, as a signal. Yes, what else? --- And then there was a secret word that I had to say, I have forgotten now what it is. Yes? --- I went on three occasions. I went the first occasion, I didn t find them. The second occasion I didn t find them, and the third occasion I didn t find them. I went to Govan... I then did not go to Govan to tell him that I did not find them. Right, so after you missed these three batches, what happened then? --- After that I met the man from Durban, Bruno, for the first time. For the first time? --- It was the first time that I had seen and met Bruno, but I met Brunoe before I went to meet the people at Germiston. Alright, now tell us about that... now let us go back to the first occasion when you met Bruno, tell us what happened then? --- The first occasion was when Mlangeni came to me, and told me that there was a person who had arrived coming to that conference of S.A.C.T.U. He came from Durban. That this person was sent up to receive training, and that he and I would go and see that person and satisfy ourselves whether he is... whether we would want him or not. Find out whether he was being expected there or not. We must go and make sure about him. And did No. tell you what sort of training he was coming for? BY THE COURT TO WITNESS: Was it No. 9 or No.? --- Yes, we re talking about No.. EXAMINATION BY MR. KROG (CONTINUED): He was the man coming from Natal? --- Yes. Did he tell you what sort of training he was coming for? --- You didn t understand correctly. It is not Mlangeni that said that a man had come for training, he this man, said he came

22 22 for training. Mlangeni and I had to just go and satisfy ourselves about it. We had to find out whether he was the person who was being expected there to arrive or not. Mlangeni came and made this report to you? --- Yes. Yes? --- Then Mlangeni and I went to Umphulu, we went there by car, then we went to Siloro s house. Do you know his first name? --- Levy. Levy Siloro, yes, you went to his house? --- It is there where we found this man Bruno whom we did not know then. He was the person who was from Natal. He then explained that he was from Natal, and that he had to come up there for training. Did he tell you what sort of training? --- No. Yes? --- And then we questioned him. We said now how will we know that you are being expected, and whether you are a genuine person, whether you might not be a spy or something? And then his reply was that we could find out from Jack Hodgson, and then on the way home, when Mlangeni was taking me hom, he and I agreed, because he had a car that he would go to Jack to go and find out about this man Bruno. And when you left, did you leave Bruno and Levy Silo- ro s house? --- We left him there, yes. Did Mlangeni report back to you? --- Yes, I think the next day Mlangeni came and told me that Bruno was alright, he was known. I don t know what they did with Bruno after that. Whether he was taught or trained, I don t know. Did Bruno tell you where he was supposed to go to? --- No, he didn t know himself. And when once Jack Hodgson had confirmed that Bruno was the genuine man, when did you see Bruno again? Where did you meet him? --- I saw him, yes, after his visit there for the second time, that is after he went back to Durban and came back. I mean immediately thereafter, after No. told you that...? --- No, I didn t see him immediately afterwards.

23 -23- So then what happened after that? --- The second occasion when I met Bruno was when he came and found me where I was at a party. Where was this party? --- Pefeni. How did you come to be at the party? --- I got an invitation card from Max Sisulu. Who is this Max Sisulu? --- This Walter Sisulu s young son. You received an invitation, you went to that party and you saw Bruno at the party? --- Yes. Can you remember did you speak to him? --- We greeted each other and danced together, and then we separated. I did not speak to him anything in connection with our organisation. So after the party, did you see him? --- If I m not mistaken, it was on Saturday afternoon or Sunday, Siloro brought him to my place. Yes? --- When he saw me there, he said that he wanted to come in contact with the High Command. Yes, I told him then that I would have to go and investigate first. I would have to go and find out whether he is being expected, and then I would say it s the same week, I took the boos to Rivonia. I came there and I told Govan that Bruno was there. Was there anybody else present with No. 4 on that occasion, in the thatch roof house? --- Kathrada was present, and Wilton was also there. Now you told No. 4 about Bruno? --- Yes. And what did he do? --- Then he said to me did Bruno arrive alone, or did somebody else come with him? --- I said in reply, I saw Bruno only. Then he said alright, come with Bruno tomorrow. So the next day I went to find Mlangeni to get him because he had a car, to take us to Rivonia, but I could not find him. Then I went and borrowed Willy Mandeal s car... Winny I m sorry.

24 -24- Who is Winny? --- Mrs. Mandela. Mrs. Winnie Mandela. Which Mandela s wife? No. 1? --- No. 1 Accused s wife. You went and borrowed her car? --- Fortunately, I bumped into Brian Somane, because I can t drive. When Winnie agreed that her car could be used, then I asked him to drive the car for me. I didn t say where I was going to and I didn t say what I was going to use the car for. We then went by car to Umphulu where we picked up Bruno. I then directed Somane towards Rivonia. What time of the day was this? --- In the evening. Did you eventually arrive at Rivonia? --- Yes, we drove past Lilyleaf in Rivonia, up to a point where the road forms a T-Section. We stopped the car there and then Bruno and I walked on foot back to Lilyleaf. Which way did you walk back? --- We drove past, therefore, in walking back we walked in a westerly direction. That is not what I mean. You had previously been to the farm in Rivonia, driven in with Modiso? --- Yes. The way that you drive in, is that a made drive to the house? --- BY THE COURT TO WITNESS: You went in the back entrance not the main entrance? --- We entered on foot through the new road that was made. The new way-in. EXAMINATION BY MR. KROG (CONTINUED): And where did you go to? --- We went to this little house with the thatch roof. Who was there when you arrived? --- Walter Sisulu was there, Govan Mbeki, Kathrada, Wilton was also there. And what happened there? --- Bruno and I went in. I said to Govan Mbeki This is Bruno. One of them, I m not certain now whether it was Walter or whether it was Govan, asked Bruno, he said where is the other man? I didn t know who this person was they were referring to at the time. Bruno replied

25 -25- I know nothing about another man, and I didn t stay much longer because of a promise I d made that I would not be long with this car, I d take the car back. So I left. Did you have any other discussions there apart from just this matter where you ve accompanied Bruno? --- No, not whilst I was there. Now tell me, did you at any time mention to No. 4 the fact that the recruits, whom you were supposed to have met didn t turn up? --- Yes, I forgot about that now. Bruno said to us, Govan, there at the time why these recruits were not met at Germiston. Govan then replied because the dates were changed. And then at that moment, I said well, why wasn t I told about it. Govan said no, it s alright, it doesn t matter. And was it thereafter that you left? --- That is so. And did you leave Bruno there? --- Yes, I left him there. I don t know how he went away there again. And did you go home with Brian Somane again? --- Brian Somane took me home. Now this other man who was at Rivonia there, Wilton, I think you said his name was? --- Yes, Wilton Mgwai. Do you know where he came from? --- I knew that he was a person from Port Elizabeth. And did you know him before, or did you only meet him there at Rivonia for the first time? --- No, I knew him. He was one of the accused in the treason trial, when I knew him. And do you know whether he was known by any other name? --- We called him Breebree. And did you see Bruno again after that occasion? --- Yes. Under what circumstances? --- He came to my place on a certain Saturday morning. He told me that he had come along with some recruits from Durban, and that he had no money to return with. He asked me to give him R-00.

26 -26- And did you do so? --- Yes, he said Govan will return them to me. And did you give him the money? --- I gave him money, and he left the same Saturday And were you reimbursed? --- Yes, Govan gave it back to me. Where? --- I went to Rivonia the same week, and he gave me the money. Now apart from these people that you have mentioned already, that you met at Rivonia, are there any others here in Court that you know, whose names you have not mentioned today? --- Not in the Court here. Any others who are not here, whom you saw there? --- Goldreich, he s the only one. Did you see him there? --- I saw him there, yes, it was his house. He Stayed there. And where did you see him at Rivonia? --- I also saw him in that small room when he came there, in that small house. On how many occasions? --- Only once. Now of the accused who are in Court, they whom you have mentioned, do you know whether they also had any other names, or were they known by any other names? --- I don t know them all. But those that you do know? Start with them from this side No.1? --- Not Mandela, but No. 2 was known as Allah. I have forgotten Mandela s. Mbeki was some other name, that I m trying to recollect now. Yes, I ve forgotten the name, it s something Dlamini(?) or Kathie was Pedro. Kathrada, No. 5? --- He was Pedro. Is that all? --- Yes, the others I don t know. Now then after your last visit to Rivonia that you took Bruno there, what happened then? Did you ever go there again

27 -27- apart from just going there to collect your money? --- I don t remember going there again. I might have, but I can t remember, but I don t think I went there again. AND did you ever see Bruno again apart from the time that he borrowed the money from you? --- I saw him again on the day when he came with the Police, pointed me out and said this is Abel Mthembu. And then what happened to you? --- I was then arrested and I m still under arrest. Now you had told us earlier that some time ago, during the time of the emergency regulations, you were detained. --- Yes. You were detained and released thereafter, and then were you arrested again? --- On the 24 th of June, I was arrested under the 90 days regulations. And were you released? --- I was released again, yes. And then were you arrested again when Bruno came and pointed you out? --- Yes, and I was finally arrested when he pointed me out. And you have been in custody ever since? --- I ve been in custody ever since. Now on a subsequent occasion whilst you were detained, did you go out with the Police? --- The 23 rd of October, I went out with Sergeant Kennedy. What for? --- I went to point out the places I visited at Rivonia and No. 23 Empire Road, and S.K. buildings, the house of Mrs. Mandela, the house of Mlangeni. I was unable to point out Siloro s place, because I had gone there by car. I thought I knew the street, but I m not certain that that is the street. Yes, alright. Any other places? --- I also pointed out the point where we stopped the car, in which we brought Bruno to Rivonia. That is when Brian Somane drove it? --- Yes.

28 A. MTHEMBU -28- Now what... how did it come about that you took the Police out to these places? --- They wanted to know whether I really knew the places which I was telling them about. Did you tell them? --- Yes. What you knew about this? --- Yes. And then took them out to show them? --- Yes. Now Abel you said when Bruno came here on one occasion he said he wanted to see the High Command? --- Yes. And you, of your own accord, went out to Rivonia to go and check up first? Whether he was expected? --- Yes. Now why did you go out to Rivonia when he mentioned the High Command? --- Because I knew the High Command was at Rivonia. Now there is another aspect that you mention, and that is that you were told by Hodgson that you would be responsible for recruiting? --- Yes. Did you do anything in that regard? --- I recruited one young man by the name of Vincent Makubo(?). I asked him to try and recruit others like him, then afterwards he told me that he had collected other young men, about nine in number, but he didn t tell me their names. He said as soon as he had got hold of their names, he would give me their names, but he never gave me the names, and then I did not see him again at that time, but I will say just before that, when we were at Maxosa House, it is an African Youth Club in Johannesburg, there I met him. That is where I met him actually. And do you know what happened to him? --- Yes, I know. What? --- He left. Where to? --- He s gone away for training. When you recruited him what did you tell him? --- I told him that he was going for training outside the Union. And was he agreeable,? --- Yes. And after he reported to you that he had recruited some

29 -29- other men, did you then in turn do anything about it? --- I told him to give me their names, but he did not give me their names, and then just before he left, I introduced him to No., to Mlangeni. I think I made a mistake, I think I stopped at No. 5 Accused, but you also mentioned earlier that you knew No. 9 and? Do you know whether any one of them was known by any other name? --- I said after No. 5, I don t know whether the others had any other names. I could not recollect. MR. KROG: No further questions. BY THE COURT TO WITNESS: Did you, in fact, not have anything to do with the sending away of recruits? --- I had nothing to do with the taking away of them. Part of my duty was only to recruit. AT THIS STAGE THE COURT ADJOURNS.

30 -- 22 ND JANUARY, 1964: ABEL MTHEMBU, still under oath (recalled): (Court is cleared for witness). CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BERRANGE: Mr. Mthembu, do you remember when you started to give your evidence, his lordship asked you whether you were prepared to give evidence, and he told you what would happen if you gave your evidence satisfactorily? --- I remember. Did you understand what you were told? --- I understood, yes. That was? --- If I gave truthful evidence, and that if I did not give truthful evidence, then the Court will find that I have a case against me. Is that what you understood from it? --- That is how I understood it. Actually what his lordship told you, is that if you gave evidence satisfactory to his lordship, you would... not in these temrs, but you would walk out of this Court a free man. --- Yes, I understood that. And you understand that by that is mean, no mat- ter whether your evidence is against the Police or any of the state witnesses, or against the accused, as long as it is satisfactory to his lordship you will be free. --- I understand. You re not here to please the Police or to please anybody! --- No, I ve not come here to help the Police. Now you say you joined the African National Congress in 1954? --- Yes. So you ve been a member of this organisation for nearly ten years? --- Yes, about that, I didn t really work it out. No. Tell his lordship why did you join the African National Congress? --- I just became a member of it, because I understood that it was fighting for the liberty of freedom of

31 -31- the African people as a population. Quite. In other words, that it was fighting against discrimnatory and oppressive laws and conditions in the State? --- That is so. What sort of laws? Or Conditionds? --- There were many laws and regulations at the time when I joined that I protested against. That you protested against? --- Yes, that I did not want. That I protested against. Laws relating to Africans? --- Yes. And that is why you decided to join? --- Yes. Now you know, you ve heard of the Freedom Charter, because that was a document brought out by the African National Congress? --- Not much, at the time of course, when I joined I knew nothing about it. No, but that only came in very much later. Let me quite shortly put it to you, I want to get on with this. Do you know that the freedom Charter was a document which made demands for the end of the type of laws that you were protesting against? --- I know that, yes. And you supported the freedom fighters? --- Yes. And you also know that throughout the years, for fifty years, the African National Congress campaigned for the eradication of these laws on a non-violent basis? --- I know that. Non-violence was it s policy? --- Yes. And they did so by means of propaganda, publicity, literature, strikes, demonstrations, passive resistance, stay-at-homes all that sort of thing? --- Yes, that was the way they... that was what they did. And you know that all that sort of conduct which was formerly legal, was ultimately, as time went on, made illegal? --- I know that, yes. And you were a devoted member to this cause? ---

32 -32- Yes. And you also know that meanwhile, as the years went by, people were getting restive all over the country? (Interpreter and Mr. Berrange talking at the same time)... Sikukuneland in 1963, the Transkei 1960 the schools got burnt down, buildings, and after that there were sporadic acts of violence in various parts all over the country? --- Yes, I hear that. Yes, and acts of sabotage, in various parts of the country. Now you returned from Basutoland you told us? --- I went to Basutoland and came back. And you then had some talks with Joe Modiso, and Slovo and others that you ve mentioned? --- That is so, yes. I take it that that at that time when you had these talks, that you had given evidence about, you didn t think then that you would ever be asked at a later stage, a year or so later, about these do you? --- That is correct, yes. And you had no reason to remember everything, exactly what was said? Because you never thought that you would be asked to give evidence about it again. --- That would be so. Nor would you have any reason at that time to remember the language which was used? --- I remember that when I spoke to Slovo for instance, we spoke in European language to each other. And when you spoke to an African, you spoke in your own language? --- Yes. And as a result of what you ve told us that happened, and what you were told by Modiso, you agreed that violence was the only way out for the African National Congress? --- Yes, at the time when I spoke to him, then I also thought so.