A.N.C. attitude? Well, to explain it I don't think I'd be able to do so. Dr.Conco, alright, if you cannot explain that 10

Transcription

1 11101 DR. G0NC0 Now it refers, doctor, to the Peoples Republic of China, and it says "On the occasion of the 7th anniversary of the Peoples Republic of China the African National Congress salutes the people of China and congratulates them in their fight for freedom, and their brilliant efforts which have led then to the total liberation from the clutches of Imperialism. The Afrioan people are not unmindful of the fact that not very long ago the masses of the Chinese people were downtrodden and exploited in the same way as the African people in this country are, but because of their faith in their struggle and the unfailing support of their organisation they to-day stand side by side as free people", and then it concludes by saying: "The African National Congress exteads its hand of friendship to the Chinese peopleand places on record its appreciation of the role played by thd Peoples Republic of China in the struggle for peace and friendship. The struggle continues for human rights despite the machinations of the warmongers who are daily finding new excuses for disturbing world peace in order to perpetuate their lust for domination". Now, doctor, do you agree with this statement as representing the attitude of the African National Congress in regard to China? Yes, I agree with it. Now these brilliant efforts, which led the Chinese people to their liberation from the clutches of Imperialism, what would they be? Well, the Chinese Peoples organised and whatever the method they used to get their organisation, they got their freedom.. they are now a Republic. Do you know what methods they did use, doctor?

2 11102 DR. 00NC0 Yes, I do know there was a revolution there. The Chinese 1 revolution. Yes. And was it one of these violent revolutions? Yes, it was a fight. And how is the Peoples Republic of China playing a role in the peace and friendship struggle? I could 5 not explain that very well; I'm not sure... You don't know? But you say it correctly represents A.N.C. attitude? Well, to explain it I don't think I'd be able to do so. Dr.Conco, alright, if you cannot explain that 10 tell us what this means. "The struggle for humsn rights continues despite the machinations of warmongers who are daily finding new excuses for disturbing world peace". Who are these warmongers that are daily finding new excuses to disturb world peace? I don't know 15 who are really referred to as warmongers. Who does the A.N.C. refer to when it issues a statement referring to warmongers? It usually refers to the Imperialists, as I have already said. Do you also agree with that attitude, doctor 20? Well, I've already said that the people who own Colonies - we the indigenous people do regard them as warmongers because they prevent our liberation - - in other words they always oppose our liberation, and as long as the Colonial peoples are not free then there 25 cannot be peace, because the indigenous people will keep on fighting for their rights. That's the context in which I understand it. Dr.Conco, I now want to refer you to a document, ZKM.6. Do you remember the Queenstown Conference AsM:;

3 11103 DR. C0NC0 in 1953? Yes, I remember that conference. And were you there? I was there. Were you on the National Executive there? Yes, I was on the National Executive. Do you remember the report that Dr.Matthews submitted to the National Executive? Yes, there was a report read in the National Executive; I do not remember the contents. You don't remember the contents? No. Was that report approved? It was discussed. I'm not asking you whether it was discussed; was it approved? Well, one would have to look at the resolutions, to see which portion of the report was highlighted by conference. I'm not certain now. Alright, before we come to the approval, this is at page 5 of the report - it is a typed report and it's signed by Dr.Fuge (?)...? Yes. This report which is the National Executive Committee's report says, Dr..Conco, "That the secretarygeneral, Mr. W e M. Sizulti has been away overseas and on an extended tour of Asia. He left the country at the express invitation of the Festival Committee of the W.E.D.Y. and the International Union of Students which held its celebration at Bucharest in Rumania." You never remember having heard that? The invitation of... That Sizulu went overseas at the invitation of the W.E.D.Y? Yes, I know that Sizulu went overseas. He was secretary-general at this time? He was secretary-general of the A.N.C. And he went overseas? I know he went overseas.

4 11104 DR. C0NC0 But you never knew that he was invited by the W.D.F.Y? I mean recall it, that it was read; I recall it now. That he wasthere at the invitation of that organisation? At the invitation of that organisation. Now just have a look at this report, doctor. It's the report of the National Executive and it's signed by Dr Euge(?). Have you any reason to doubt its authenticity? No, I have no doubt; it was signed by him. Now, page 9 of this report - the National Executive has a paragraph dealing with the eventsin Africa as a whole under the heading of 'Kenya' and sets out the attitude towards Kenya in much the same way as we have already had in numberd of other instances, and then he concludes this portion on Kenya by sayings "The sentencing of Yomo Kenyeta and seven others to imprisonment with hard labour for alleged participation in what is infamously called Mau Mau activities, was a definite travesty of justice. It is becoming clear daily to the Colonial people that they will gain their freedom not by constitutional methods, but through the hard fight by revolutionary tactics." Do you accept this proposition that the Colonial people must resort to revolutionary tactics in order to get thdir freedom? I don't know whether that really refers to - - it's so difficult when you read in the middle of something... RUMPFF J: I cannot hear what you are saying? I'm sorry, my lord. I say it's difficult to really get the meaning when you read out of a long report like that... MR. TRENG-OVE: Just have a look at that paragraph, doctor, page 9. It deals with Kenya, and it con-

5 11105 DR. C0NC0 eludes with that assessment of the situation. This was 1 your report and this was your considered opinion? Yes. Now, finally...? I do agree with it, with what is expressed there. You agree...? With what is expressed there. That Colonial people will have to resort to 5 revolutionary tactics...? No, no, not to revolutionary tactics? it really depends on the use of the word revolutionary tactics; as I have indicated there are two uses for the word revolutionary. RUMPFF J: Revolutionary tactics? Revolu- 10 tionary tactics, my lord? Yes. There may "be a revolution of the mind? Yes. A change of mind? A change of mind, yes. Achange of plans. But what does the word - 15 the phrase 'revolutionary tactics 1 mean, in this context, of this document? I take it to mean, in the first sense of revolutionary - the sense of a revolutionary idea, a change in the political situation, that the tactics will alter the situation. And it could also ^0 mean altering the revolutionary tactics in the sense of violence. Now, in 1953, had the A.N.C. gone through a revolution as far as its objects were concerned? Politically - - yes. 2 5 Had it gone through that revolutionj had it changed the shade of its objects from what they used to be? Or was the A.N.C. still on the same path as ever? You mean in 1953? 30

6 11106 DR. C0NC0 Yes, in 1953? Whether the A.N.C. had changed its objects of revolution? No; concerning what it wanted to achieve in this country? Yes. Wheter it had changed in 1953, what it wanted to achieve in this country? Yes? No, it had - - what it wanted to achieve was still by constitutional means... Yes, as you have explained. Now, by 1953 had they changed the means of achieving this aim of theirs? In 1952 the means had changed by the Defiance Campaign. In 1952 came the Defiance Campaign and the means which were used before were quite different now. MR. TRBNGOVE: Dr.Conco,in this context, referring to Kenya, could one obtain revolutionary changes by constitutional means? Yes, I think it is possible. Now, what did you mean, as a member of the National Executive, when you said 'It's becoming clear - after referring to the blood bath in Kenya - 'It's becoming clearer daily to the Colonial people that they will gain their freedom not by constitutional methods but through the hard fight, by revolutionary tactics"? With reference to Kenya... I want to suggest to you, Dr Conco,...? Well, referring to South Africa I understand - - in Kenya there wasa revolutionary change in the methods used - - there was violence, there was a fight - - referring to Kenya... Violence. The tactics employed in Kenya, are those revolutionary tactics - - would you describe them as revolutionary tactics? In the two types of

7 11107 DR. C0NC0 revolution - there are the two contexts. Now forget the revolution of the mind, doctor, and deal with? The revolution of ideas. Forget the revolution of ideas and confine yourself to the physical combat in Kenya; the tactics employed by the people in Kenya, would you describe those as revolutionary tactics? Yes, they were revolutionary tactics in Kenya. Now this report of yours, with reference to Kenya, when it says, "It is becoming clear daily to the Colonial people,from events in Kenya it is becoming cldar to the Colonial people.." Who are the Colonial people? The colonial people at large. 'It is becoming clear to the Colonial people at large that they will not gain their freedom by constitutional methods, but through the hard fight, by revolutionary tactics". I put it to you, Dr.Conco, that that can only mean one thing, and that the considered opinion of the African National Congress Executive in 1953 was that the example of Kenya showed the Colonial people that the changes they seek can only be sought by the type of revolutionary tactics employed, inter alia, in Kenya, and that that could have no other meaning? That is not so. RUMPFF J; Gould you describe the tactics employed in Kenya as constitutional? I wouldn't describe them as constitutional, my lord. They were unconstitutional. MR. TRENGOVE: Dr.Conco, finally on this issue, one more documen, SAM9 - it's an African Lodestar, it's called 'The Colonial Youth Day Issue, Vol. 4 No. 2,

8 11108 DR. C0NC0 my lords, I haven't got a date here it crust be some tine after the 15th February, 1954? it refers to a report in the newspaper of that ^ate. Now, Dr. Conco, it firstly sets out the history of the Colonial Youth Day which I'm not concerned about at the moment; it gives the same attitude as to Kenya that we've had this morning, and then secondly, there is an article referring to the struggle in Kenya - the history of the legalised murder of innocent Kenya people, and then that article concludes, doctor, in the following way: " History is being made in Kenya. It is indeed the history of white civilisation. It is the history of brutality and blood. It is a damp bloodstained page in British history which in the humane society of the future will make very sad reading. It is the history of Imperialism in decay." Than the following passage: "How are the defenceless people of Kenya defending themselves against this barbarism set loose? They are using all the methods that a people in their position must necessarily resort to, retaliation, strikes, boycott of businesses - the people are fighting back." Now, doctor, the bulletin is that of the African National Congress. Would you agree that in that passage the retaliation way in which the people in Kenya retaliated is justified by the African National Congress? Is it a Youth League bulletin? Yes? Yes, it is justified according to the statement you've read. And you agree with that statement? Yes, I think I agree with it. You agree with that statement? Broadly, yes;

9 11109 DR. C0NC0 I've not studied the whole statement. Would you agree that in a situation like in Kenya where the people are oppressed "by the Government, and where the Government resorts to violence to suppress them, that the people are entitled to retaliate? In their situation... In their situation? In their situation in Kenya. Now why do you say they are entitled to retaliate in that way, doctor? Why is it justified? Well, in the first place the basis in Kenya is regarded as being - - the British police refusing to - - rather, the Kikuyu people clamouring for their rights, and in their situation the Kikuyu found themselves having to wage a violent struggle - that is a rebellion which involved shooting - - but whether that justifies the method used by the A.N.C - - in the African National Congress policy we justified the objectives of the Kenya people and we don't justify the method used, in view of our policy. Doctor, I thought that I had demonstrated by the passages I read this mornihg that the African National Congress in South Africa deplored the violence used against the oppressed people, but that they applauded and associated themselves and identified themselves with everything that the oppressed people did in Kenya. Is that not a fair...? The African National Congress deplored the violence used in Kenya from both sides, from the Kikuyu side and from the British side. The objects, and the aims of the Kikuyu people it approved of, fightihg for liberation and national independence.

10 11110 DR. G0NC0 Well, Dr.Conco, I don't want to go over that again, hut I say that what you say now is directly in conflict with everything that you conceded in respect of the struggle in Kenya so far? I didn't follow your question, I'm sorry. Doctor, I am now about to ask you a few questions on these lectures that I referred to earlier, A.84, A.85 and A.86. Doctor, according to the information that was given to you after you made enquiries as to these lectures, you are able to say now that these 1 ectures were amongst other things the basis of the political education of the freedom volunteers? Well, I'd say they are amongst the lectures which werevused for political education in general to freedom volunteers and Congress members. Now, do you know of any other lectures that were used to educate the freedom volunteers? I'm not aware of any others. Well, why do you then say that these were aaongst the lectures that were being used? Probably I shouldn't have put it that way; I mean the idea of giving political education to the volunteers and members of the Congress - it would appear these were the lectures which were used for that idea. Yes. Just read the heading of that first lecture "The world we live in"? The world we live in. These notes are thefirst of a series designed to be read, discussed and studied by volunteers and active Congress workers, and especially by individual workers and active trade unionists." Yes; so, doctor, these lectures then represent

11 11111 DR. CONGO the political training which the Congress movement thought 1 essential for the training of volunteers and Congress people? Yes. And would it be fair to suggest then, too, that these lectures also set forth the views of the African National Congress in respect of the matterswith 5 which the lectures deal? No, my lords, they don't express the view of the African National Congress, on the subjects dealt with here. They? They don't represent the view of the African National Congress on policy. 10 Why do you say that, doctor? Well, for instance there are - - I could refer to the lecture where it says "A change is needed" - - Can you say in general, are there things in these lectures which don't agree with A.N C. policy? 15 There are. Now, doctor, did the A r N c C. at any time issue a statement or in any way disassociate themselves with anything that was said in any of these lectures, with specific reference to the lectures? No, I don't know 20 of any; I don't think such a statement was issued. Now, you didn't even know of the existence or the contents of these lectures? No, I didn't? as I have already said, I didn't know about their existence or contents. 25 Do you accept the position that in 1953 the National Executive of the African National Congress expressed the desirability of political training for volunteers? The question of political training, it was for Congress members in general. It is usually 30

12 11112 DR. CONGO raised every year in Conferences j training for Congress members is raised - was raised in 1954, for officials of Congress, in the 1954 report that was raised. Not only for volunteers. Volunteers are also trained, as we did in the Defiance Campaign.. Dr.Conco, you don't answer my question. Did the A.N.C. feel that it was necessary that the volunteers should be given a political training? Yes, volunteers were to be given political training, and Congress members. Yes. Do you know if the African National Congress did anything to produce lectures for that training? When? For the freedom volunteers? Or in general? For the freedom volunteers? I'm not aware of any other lectures. Dr. Conco...? There may have been but I'm not aware of them. Dr.Conco, I want to put it to you that the African National Congress used these lectures without in any way expressing disapproval of anything that was said in these lectures, as a basis of politicaltraining for volunteers and for their members? Well, the lectures - for instance "The world we live in", which is a description of the world and the different systems of government, in a lecture you expect people to know really how things are going on in the world and I think the way... BEKKER J: Counsel put it to you that the African National Congress did use these lectures for the purpose of instructing volunteers and Congress

13 11113 DR. CONCO members generally on politics, to educate them politically? Yes my lord. Now he puts that to you? Yes. Which means he says that happened; do you or don't you agree? I agree with that. MR. TRENGOVE: Now I just want to take it a little further. That the National Action Council of the Congress of the People, of which the African National Council is a constituent body, also regarded these lectures as an essential part of the training of anybody who was interested in the Congress of the People, and the drafting of the Freedom Charter? Yes, they may have regarded them as important for people to study. Not may or may have; they did? Well, I don't deny that. They did. And, doctor, according to the documents that I put before you yesterday these documents were being used in Natal where you were, for the political training of volunteers and Congress people? Yes, well, I think they were used in Natal, though I'm not aware of it because I didn't get the lectures. I don't deny that they were used. And I want to put it to you that you have no grounds to suggest that these lectures were not - that the contents of these lectures were not sanctioned by the African National Congress? These are lectures - that question is quite difficult, my lords, because these are lectures for education and I don't remember any sanction by the A.N.C for the correctness of the contents with regard to specific issues raised in the lectures.

14 11114 DR. GONCO RUMPFF J: Was the question of educating the volunteers something of importance to the African National Congress? Yes, my lord, the question of educating the volunteers and members and office bearers was something of importance in the A.N.C. Were you never Interested to know what they were being educated on? I was interested, my lord. Did you ever enquire into what lectures were being used? No, I didn't enquire. How were you then interested? In regard to this question of political education, my lord, could I be allowed to explain? 10 Yes? Fcr instance, my lord, this question of political education was always raised at our annual conferences, and in Natal, for instance in January, 1954, I ran a Summer school for political training - people to be trained in broad views - - to understand the issues involved in a political movement, and I did organise the Summer school, and lectures were delivered there by various leaders. To show how we regarded political training as important even in 1954, even before 1955, Yes, but were you not interested to know what other people taught the volunteers? Well, I was interested, ay lord, but probably I might have just missed these lectures. I did miss these lecture, they did not come to me, but I was interested. 25 (COURT ADJOURNED UNTIL 2.15 P.M) 30

15 11115 DR. CONGO Ofl THE COURT RESTJTOIG AT MR. TSENGOVEs 2.15 P.M: Dr. Conco, before the adjournment we were just about to deal with these three lectures, A84, A85, and A86, now if you take - I will just ask you this Doctor, are you quite sure that yesterday was the first time that you read this? Yes, my Lord, - - -mand I have heard them read in Court, too, my Lord, You see these are contained in the indictment served on you originally, you didn't read through that? Yes, the indictment I've got, I think the summary my Lord. I mean this does not come as a complete surprise to you? No, my Lord, I mean it is not a complete surprise today. Now Dr. Conco, this first lecture "The World We Live In" would it be correct that on a proper reading of this lecture, that it propagates, put it at it's lowest? Socialist...? My Lord, about the word Socialism, I am not sure of the word Socialism, but on the whole it does analyse - some analysis of society into classes which is usually used by what I call Socialism or Leftist I would rather use the word Leftist. Leftist? Yes. I mean the document itself pleads for what it calls a Socialist World,does it not...? My Lord, the analysis of the situation in the world dividing people into classes is Socialist* Whether there is a plea for a Socialist world I'm not aware- - - If you look at paragraph 11 "The struggle for liberation", is that correct? Yes, I've got it. And it refers to the fact that Imperialism

16 11116 DR. CONCO has divided the world, is that correct? Yes. Colonial countries and Imperialist countries, is that right? Yes. And that division has brought new struggles and wars between Imperialist countries and the Colonial people fighting against Imperialism; Yes, it's there. is that right? And then he sets forth the Colonial struggle, in the various parts of the world, and it says that "Imperialism lives by armed force and terror and lives always in war". Now, in that paragraph is there anything there that you don't agree with? No. You accept that proposition? Well, the way it is analysed, yes, I accept that. You accept the analysis of "Gnat situation? Yes. Then, if you look at paragraph 12, under the heading "Socialist World", "That the struggle of the people for their freedom cannot be held back by force and terror;in the age of Imperialism the people's struggle for their freedom is growirgstring enough for the whole sections of the world to break out of the net of Colonial oppression and to achieve their independence, National independence, strong enough for whole sections of the world to burst out of the net of Capitalist exploitation, to overthrow the old system of private ownership of tools and machines and factories and to replace it with a new system, a system called Socialism, where there are no exploiters of men, but where all the factories, farms and mines and machines are owned in common by all the people who work for their own benefit and are

17 11117 DR. CONCO not used to make profits for a few." Do you agree with that analysis of the situation? Well, the analysis is for a Socialist system; that's how it is analysed here. I don't agree with all the aspects of the Socialist system. Are there any aspects in this that you don't agree with? Of which one? I don't agree with the whole Socialist system... But paragraph 12, is there anything in this that you don't agree with? Yes, there are aspects of it I don't agree with. I mean a completely Socialist State - - everything being owned by the State Just read through that and tell me what you don't agree with? Well, there is here referred to - - if I can just pick it up - - to overthrow the old system of private ownership of tools and machines and factories and to replace it with a new system, the system called Socialism where there are no masters and no exploited men, but where all the factories and farms and mines and machines are owned in common by all the people who work for their own benefit - - and are used not to make profit for a few. That is a little extreme, I don't agree with that. Tell me specifically what is that you don't agree with in this? Well, the document says a Socialist system, a complete socialisation of everything... 'What statement in this document is unacceptable to you? RUMPFE Js You mean in the passage read? MR. TRENGOVE; Yes, my lord? I think the whole passage.

18 11118 DR. COKCO You don't accept this at all? No, I don't. Anything contained in this? Really, these things go in degrees... I don't accept this Socialist system as described here. Well, doctor, you compel me to take you through it. Do you agree that in the age of Imperialism the peoples struggle for freedom has grown and strong enough for whole sections of the world people to break out of the net of Colonial oppression and achieve their national independence? Yes, I agree with that part. Do you agree that this struggle is strong enough for whole sections of the world's population to burst out of the net of Capitalist exploitation: do you agree with that? Are you now talking of the world population? I mean, that means the whole world... I agree with the first part referring to Colonial people, but when it comes to the whole world that's a different context, to my mind. Not, not the whole world, "strong enough for whole sections of the world's population", of the world's people to burst out of the net of Capitalist exploitation? The way I interpret it is that it is strong enough for whole sections of the world... to break out of the net of Capitalist exploitation. In other wo ds, all the people in the world to get out of Capitalist exploitai -tion. It's not really referring to the Colonial people. With that aspect I do not agree. I don't think your interpretation is corredt, but you say as far as Colonial peoples are concerned you agree with that statement? Yes. They are strong enough to burst out of' the net

19 11119 DR. CONGO OP Capitalist exploitation? Yes, as far as those who are in Colonial countries are concerned... Are they also strong enough to overthrow the old of system of private ownership,/tools and machines and factories and to replace it with a new system of Socialism? No, I don't go so far as to agree with that. Now, Dr.Conco, if that is your attitude you didn't properly instruct your volunteers in their course of political education? I don't follow the question. You mean... You see, this is the approved basis of instruction to the volunteers, and if you didn't instruct them along these lines you were not instructing them properly according to the decision of the National Action Council of the African National Congress? I think I was instructing them according to the proper lines. Did you ever discuss the basis in your theoretical instruction to volunteers with anybody? Theoretical instruction? Did youever discuss with anybody the material that you were using to instruct the volunteers? I might have. Did you ask anybody, or tell anybody, "Look here, I'm telling my volunteers this or that about the situation in order to raise their political consciousness"? Well, as I have already explained the way I talked to volunteers and members of Congress, giving them political education, I talked of general things... BEKKER J: The question is whether you discussed with anybody what you were telling your volunteers? I might have my lord. I'm not sure, I cannot remember.

20 11120 DR. CONCO MR. TRENGOVE; On how many occasions, doctor, did you specifically give lectures to volunteers as part of their political instruction, apart now from your summer schools? Apart from the summer school I cannot remember how often - - several times - - I don't remember how many times, on how many occasions I did it. And what other members of the African National Congress were present when you gave this instruction? I gave the instructions to members of the African National Congress. Where? In my branch. Where was that? In Ixopo, Natal. Anywhere else? Well, I don't remember giving lectures to other areas. What material did you use to inform yourself as to the type of instruction you should give them? My lord, I used general material as I understood things, related to the situation in South Africa; knowledge. just general What general material, doctor? The structure of society in South Africa. What general material, doctor, did you use? General material on the structure of society in South Africa. Por instance, the people who have the vote - that is the white population - and the majority... Doctor, I don't want to interiu pt you; I'm not asking you what you read in the material you used; I want to know what material did you yourself use to inform yourself? I don't think I can out it further than just general material on the political situation in South Africa.

21 11121 DR. CONGO Doctor, do you earnestly say that at this stage you don't know what you told the volunteers; you don't know what material you used and these volunteers were going to be the top brigade in the struggle for liberation ih which you were a very prominent member? It's difficult to remember all the lectures, where I read my material and how I used it - - it's a long time ago now and it's difficult to remember. Did you use any material that was found in your possession, and that has been placed before this Court? I don't know which material - - it might remind me if I saw it - - I might remember. Doctor, you know what was found in your possession and you know what was handed in in this case. There were not many documents found in your possession? Yes. And handed in in Court here; you know what was handed in. Did you use that? Well, I don't know; there were so many documents I had. Some of those I received I never looked at, and some I read. Did you for instance use "Fighting Talk", WC.39, March 1956? Well, this is dated March 1956, and I thought the question was directed towards the training of volunteers, their political education, earlier than that. I was banned at this time, my lords; I don't think I addressed any gathering... Yes, but you were not banned from instructing volunteers? I was banned - - I was confined in the district of Umximkulu, I couldn't go to the district, where the branch was, that is Ixopo.

22 11122 DR. CONGO Could you not instruct any volunteers in your area? No, I didn't. So you didn't use that? No. I showed you yesterday the "Call" which was found in your possession containing the lecture "The world we live in"; you didn't use that? No, I didn't. > You used to sell "New Age"; did you use "New Age" to inform yourself, and did you propagate what was set forth in this publication? I might have used it, some articles from "New Age"; I can't remember very well. Doctor, you don't seem to be able to remember anything. Take paragraph 13 of the lecture "The world we live in", "We live ina world divided into classes, a small class of Capitalists who own the instruments of production and a large class who work and who are exploited. We live in a world divided into Imperialist countries, England, America, France, Holland, Belgium, who oppress and exploit the Colonial countries in Africa and Asia and South America. We live in a world divided into two sections, a section where the Capitalist rules and exploits the people, and a sector where the means of production has become the property of all the people and the exploitation of man by man is being abolished." "The U.S.S.R., Poland, Hungary, Rumania and Czechoslovakia and China." Do you agree with that as an assessment of the division of the world into two groups? Yes, I have nothingvery much against that analysis, that analysis of the different groups in the world. I agree with it. Yes. These countries - Poland, Hungary, Rumania, and Czechoslovakia - are they not the countries that are usually referred to as Peoples Democracies? That could be

23 11123 DR. CONCO be said, my lords. Isn't it used? Well, I'm no expert on the usual terms used. I don't want to know from you as an expert, I don't want you to justify the usage; do you know whether it's used, whether the term 'Peoples Democracy' is used as referring to those countries - Poland, Hungary, Rumania and Czechoslovakia? I think it could be used? That's not the question? do you know if it is used? Do you know - -? I think I have seen it used. Now, "We live in a world aflame with the fight for freedom from Imperialism and exploitation to which the people move steadily forward to a better life. Everywhere, in every land, working people have banded together to fight with all their resources for etheir liberty, for their independence, for all the good things of life, knowledge, health, prosperity, comfort and security, which the modern world provides. It is the Congress movement which organises South Africans for thi3''great democratic s truggle Our Congress movement is part of great world for liberty." Now, this great world brotherhood for liberty, isn't that the international liberatory movement? I think it might refer to different sections in the world who want liberty. I don't think it specifically refers to a movement? that is an organisation, as such. But of what great world brotherhood is the Congress movement a part? Well, there is quite a big world brotherhood - - people who sympathise with our struggle and what we are fighting for, we regard them as

24 11124 DR. CONGO brothers because they give us moral support, and we find them all ovee the world - in America there are groups which are sympathetic to our struggle, also in Great Britain, so it is also in China - - I mean, all over the world; so it is in India. I suppose that refers to the world brotherhood, for liberty. What about the U.S.S.R, all the Communist countries? The U.S.S.R too; there are people there who sympathise with our struggle. Only some of the people? Well, at UNO one hears the Soviet Union speaking on apartheid - - I mean they also support the world brotherhood for liberty. Would you say that the United States of America - would you say that Great Britain - - as countries..? As governments. As governments, do they fall within this great world brotherhood? It depends on the time; there has been a change... At the time when this was written? As governments I don't think we 5 ve had much support from America in our struggle for liberty, and we've only had the Labour Party in England who supported our aspirations, Colonial people - - but as governments, no; they have not supported us. RUMPFF Js Is your answer to the question no? Yes, my lord. MR. TRENGOVE; As governmens, Russia, China, the Peoples Republics -Rumania, Czechoslovakia and those places, are they in this great world brotherhood? As governments? As governments? I think they are, if they

25 11125 DR. CONGO have expressed support for our cause. I know of the Soviet Union but I don't know about Rumania,.. The Soviet Union is? Well, it did support our cause in UNO when it came up. It is. And this document, "The world we live in", if it refers to 'Our Congress movement', what Congress movement would that be? It means our Congress movement, the A.N.C. With the other people? With the other people, the other organisations. And if it says "If we are to go forward as others have done, to burst out of the net of Imperialist oppresssion we must understand this world we live in, we must understand our own country and our own lives; we must understand how a country's life changes and how we can best help it change". Yes, I agree with it. Do you agree with that statement? / Now, if you agree with it can you tell me why according to this statement it is necessary* for the Congress movement in South Africa to burst out of the net of Imperialist oppression. This is not an Imperialist country; you said that this morning? No,'South Africa I don't regard as an Imperialist country. But why then did the A.N.C. regard it as an Imperialist country. Isn't it obvious from this lecture? Well, it's how the person uses the word, my lords. I mean, it could include South Africa. Does, or does not the African National Congress regard South Africa as an Imperialist country? It does not regard South Africa as an Imperialist country, it regards it as a semi-colonial country.

26 f DR. CONCO (Witnsss): That is quite different from an Imperialist 1 country, my lords. Dr.Conco, I just want to give you a fair opportunity of answering the question. If it does not, why would this phrase occur in the lecture: "If we have to go forward as others have done to burst out of the net 5 of Imperialist oppression". Where is this net of Imperialist oppression in South Africa? Which le cture is that? I'm referring to the first one, A84, paragraph 13? As I said the word Imperialist could be used,probably gome people might use it to include South Africa, and 10 the net work is the network of the laws that debar the aboriginal people in South Africa from participating in the government of the country. It could refer to that. I'm not interested in that; I want to know what the attitude of the African National Congress was, 15 and I put it to you, doctor, that you know very well that the African National Congress regarded South Africa as an Imperialist country, and that is why this is contained in the lecture; otherwise it has no sense in that lecture, and you know it? I don't know very well,that 20 the A.N.C. regarded South Africa as an Imperialist country. Does it come as a surprise to you that the A.N.C. could ever have thought of South Africa as an Imperialist country? I'm not surprised; the word can be extended to include more than one meaning. 25 Dr.Conco, would it be correct, that according r to you a word could be extended to mean anything; every time I ask you something you say a word can be extended? I could use the word as meaning a specific thing, but somebody else can use the same word and say "I include

27 11127 DR. CONCO this" in using that word. I think that is common, that's 1 my impression. Now, doctor, is it not a fact that the African National Congress, in particular the Congress Movement in general, held the view that Capitalism is still very strong force in South Africa? I don't know whether 5 I could make this clear - - it's a very difficult question to answer. In the African National Congress there are different shades of opinion. We've got people who are in themselves interested in Capitalism, who are capitalists, and we've got moderates, we've got liberals, we've got leftists, and even Socialists. It's a rational organisation which has all these groups. a I mean, the Leftists would express an opinion against Capitalism in South Africa, and the Capitalists in Congress would express another view about Socialism - - so it becomes a bit 15 difficult for me to 0... i Dr, Conco r has the African National Congress got a different policy for every shade of opinion amongst its members, or has it one policy? The African National Congress has got one policy. 20 And as regards the ideological basis on which volunteers had to be trained, did it have different sets i of lectures dealing with different ideological approaches for different shades of opinion? No, I'm not aware of r that. 25 / Isn't it a fact, Dr.Conco, that on this quesi tion, apart from any shades of opinion or whatever it is, that on this question of what the volunteers should be taught, therew as no difference of opinion as to what the A.N.C. thought volunteers should be taught. There was

28 11128 DR. CONCO unanimity on this issue? I don't really remember, either 1 in Congress or in an Executive meeting where a decision was taken about what volunteers should be taught, so I couldn't express an opinion. Dr. Conco, the National Council of the Congress of the People, you said yesterday that they issued these 5 ictures? Yes, I said that. And would the African National Congress tolerate that situation if they didn't accept these lectures as a proper basis? They could have passed it, the A.N.C. men who were in the National Action Council - - it is possible they passed the lectures. Dr.Conco, of all the propaganda dessiminated these lectures were probably the most widely dessiminated? I don't deny that. You don't deny that? No. 15 So that anybody in the African National Congress who took an interest in the affairs of the Congress would have known of the situation and could have raised the matter; it could not have been common cause that this correctly set forth the A-N.C. views? Well, I suppose it could. Do you know of anybody who did? I do not kn ow, no. Lid the A N C hold the view that South Africa, the state, has under its command a huge military and police apparatus to hold down the oppressed 9 Well, the State has got the arms, so we do hold that view. That view that it uses those means to hold down the oppressed, - they use those means as instruments of oppression? Well, we do hold the view that the State has got power and one could extend it to the meaning of instruments of oppression

29 11129 DR. CONGO You don't deny that? I don't deny that. 1 Do you also hold the view that the reactionary forces will always offer serious resistance to the forces of freedom - the ruling and reactionary forces will always offer serious opposition to the liberatory forces - the forces of freedom and oppression? Yes, I think 5 I agree to that. And do you hold the view that a transition from the present state of affairs to Socialism will always be attended by a sharp revolutionary struggle? In the first place I don't agree that a transition from 10 the present state in Africa will be to Socialism, as envisaged in this lecture. Yes, but assuming that we have to go from our present state to a Socialist state, do you know whether the A.N.C. holds the view that that transition 15 from the present state of affairs to a Socialist State - that that could be attended by a sharp revolutionary struggle? We don't hold the view - - the A.N.C.does not hold the view that the transition from the present state in South Africa will be to a socialist state. 20 We don't hold that view. Well, let me ask you... RUMPFF J; To what state then?-- My lord, as I have said this question now of Socialist State as here described, it gives me the impression of 25 extreme Leftism, almost Communistic - extreme Leftist. Now, Socialist - - I could also say Socialist State in the same manner as the British Socialist Party for instance, and that's not a Socialist State, my lord. 30

30 11130 DR. CONCO Do you know what the British Socialist Party 1 aims at? I know a little about it. Have you studied that? I've studied a little about that. MR. TRENGOVE; carry two meanings; Dr.Conco...? So that it could when one says we are fighting for a Socialist State it might mean the extreme, I don't know. What would be an extreme Socialist State? The State in Russia.. What kind of State is that? The Stite owns 10 I've got a general idea that therethe State owns all the means of production, and it owns - - really, my lord, I've never studied this very much... Do you know anything about Marxism-Leninism? No, I don't; I have never studied Marxism-Leninism.. 15 RUMPFF J: You say you have studied the policy of the British Socialist Party? Well, I understand it, my lord. Did you not just now say you studied it? I have read about it, my lord, I studied it. Not very deeply. In the study of that, didn't it bring in of necessity a comparison with Comnunism? As I say, my lord, one knows some aspects of Communism e - I mean, one has a general idea about Communism, and one has a general idea of Socialism as practised in Britain. Yes. 25 MR. TRENGOVE: Dr.Conco, Marxism-Leninism - 30

31 11131 DR. CONCO have you ever studied that? No, I have not studied 1 that. Have you heard of that terra? I've heard of the term. And would you think that you could express an opinion as to Marxism-Leninism? As I say it's quite 5 a difficult field really - - I mean, in general, as far as my knowledge goes I could say what I think about it if I'm asked to comment. Dr.Conco, in this 'Fighting Talk' of March, 1956, which was found in your possession, you see 10 this article "Kruschschev on Soviet Policy"; when you got that 'Fighting Talk' did you read that article I might have read it, I don't remember now. It's likely,i not so? It's likely that I read it, yes. 15 Could I just have it. You see, this article, Kruschev on Soviet Policy, 'Fighting Talk' says : "Kruschev, First Secretary of the Soviet Communist Party in his opening speech to the 20th Congress of the Party: this speech deals with the policy, Soviet policy in the ^0 field of national aspirations, in the field of world economy, in the field of Soviet living conditions and education, has not been published in our Press. An authoritative expression of policy - of opinion and policy by a Soviet Leader is clearly of interest to ^5 all, and the views here expressed are of particular importance to all concerned with the preservation of world peace", and then he publishes this statement by Kruschev which deals with the people in the Colonies, peaceful co-existence, socialism will win, and the change 30

32 11132 DR. CONCO to Socialism, and then it contains this passage; My lords, this has been read into the record under G-.1132, March 1956, at page 3051 of the record. It makes an observation about the change to Socialism and that paragraph is concluded by the following statement: - "In countries where capitalism is strong and has a huge military and police apparatus at its disposal, the reactionary forces will, of course, inevitably offer resistance. The transition to Socialism there will be attended by a sharp class revolutionary struggle." Now, those are said to be the views of ICruschev» published in 'Fighting Talk', doctor. Do you accept that statement as being correct; do you agree with that statement of Kruschev's? Well, he's talking there about achange over to Socialism.. Yes; now assuming that there is to be a change over to Socialism, that this type of situation would arise in a Capitalist country, the police force and the State apparatus would necessarily be used to resist the swing to Socialism, and that you'd have a sharp revolutionary struggle. If the State wants to put down the revolt? I've not really studied it - the intricacies of change of State to Socialist.. I really have not. j complicated. That passage as read is a bit Now, doctor, could one perhaps - - could we turn to the next lecture, "The country we live in"; have you got that, A.85.? Yes, I've got it here. i It's quite clear from the first paragraph that the country we live in deals with the situation in South Africa? Yes.

33 DR. CONCO In other words, the volunteers were not onlybeing instructed as to the conditions in the world in general, they were also to be instructed as to the situation in the country in which they live, namely South Africa. Now, would you turn, doctor, to paragraph 9 j it's headed "A system of oppression"? Yes, I've got it. "This is the system Imperialism has built to protect its high profits at the expense of the people of South Africa. Such a system, a system by which a small group of men grow rich at the cost of the misery, slavery and poberty of many, is always in danger of overthrow by the oppressed people. Imperialism can only survive by the use of force on the one hand and 10 on the other by dividing the oppressed people and turning their anger and discontent away from their real oppressors, and against their fellow oppressed. This is how oppression survives in South Africa". Sorry, I left out the word - referring to the system of Imperialism - "This is true of South Africa also"? 20 Yes. Now, doctor, do you accept that analysis of the position in South Africa? Yes; for instance such a system by which a small group of men grow rich by the misery, slavery and poverty of many - - I'd 25 accept the description of the situation as applying to South Africa. You accept whatever meaning one gives to Imperialism, that in South Africa this situation existed in 1954? Yes. 30

34 11134 DR. CONCO Now, would you turn to paragraphs 10 and 11; l paragraph 10: "But Imperialism, has done more to protect itself; it has granted to a section of the Eurepean population the right to share in the benefits of exploitation of the oppressed Colonial peoples. It has permitted the skilled European workers many bene- 5 fits, a monopoly of skilled jobs, free from non-european competition, high wages, good housing, good conditions of housing and health, cheap domestic servants, a multiplicity of labour and assistance. (2) All this has cost the Imperialists a small part of their profits, 10 but it has been like the payment of insurance for them. It has been payment made to win the European working people away from an alliance with the non-european oppressed, to give them a... in the continuation of the exploitation and oppression and so to turn them 15 into allies of Imperialism, and enemies of the oppressed people", Then 11: "They rule by force: Erom these hired allies and from the most de-nationalised and declassed section of the oppressed Imperialism has built up a vast network of force, police, commis- 20 sioners, superintendents and armies and workers, to suppress by force the national struggles and revolts of the oppressed. Alongside its armed men it has... a whole collection of supporters and hangers-on, politicians who preach racialism and oppression as 25 a new holier region, hooligans who use violence and assault to terrorise the oppressed, professors and ministers of religion who...the inferiority of the oppressed people, and the fitness of the Imperialists and their supporters to rule. Thus Imperialism 30 has built South Africa and thus it rules."

35 11135 DR. CONGO Do you agree, doctor, with that analysis of the situa- x tion in South Africa? It does analyse the situation in South Africa, in very strong terms. I agree with it. You agree with that? Yes. And I take it that the African National Congress would not use such strong language unless it 5 thought it was necessary? I couldn't express an opinion on that. Dr^Conco, this last passage that I've read to you about the rule by force, the system of oppression that's been built up, it sounds very much like the 10 language that Kruschev also used when he spoke of the Imperialists resisting change to Socialism, not so? It might sound the same, but when I refer it to South Africa... Now, doctor, A.85 you said, the analysis of 15 the situation in South Africa, and then A 86, the third lecture deals with "The change is needed"? Yes. Is that correct? Yes s Lecture 3, "A change is needed". 20 Yes. And this also relates to the change that is needed in South Africa? Yes. It refers specifically to a change from the present system to a change as set forth in this lecture, is that correct? Yes. 25 Now, doctor, under the heading "Sweeping changes", paragraph 3> what are the great changes that the Congress Movement might seek. Let us look at how we are ruled. We have shewn that Parliament represents only a minority of the people; we have 30

36 11136 DR. CONCO called it an exclusive club of Imperialists, the farmers and their hangers-on. This is obviously something that has to be changed if oppression is to be ended, but changed how? Clearly it has to be so completely changed that the type of parliament we know to-day disappears and a new kind of parliament altogether replaces it. First, it must be a parliament elected by the adults of all races, on equal vote for vote basis. Then it must be a parliament free from the South Africa Act, the so called Constitution which enshrines the principle of white supremacy. It must be a parliament in which the major languages aare of the people are given equal right and standing; it must be a parliament which starts not with the old oppressive and discriminatory laws behind it, to be attended one by one, but with a parliament that starts off from the beginning with one basic law, the law that all discrimination and national oppression is illegal and therefore all existing laws which contain such discrimination are null and void. This would be something really new and radical in South Africa." Do you agree with that, that that is the type of ohange that is needed? Yes, with reference to the sweeping changes which are required in this country I agree with the statsaent that the parliament - - it will be a sweeping change to have a parliament representative of all races. I agree with the statement. You agree too that it is a radical change...? Where it says it must be a parliament elected by all the adult3 of all races, on an equal vote for vote

37 11137 DR. CONCO basis, I agree with that. And you agree that it would be - having regard to the situation in it would be a radical change? It would be a radical change, yes, from the parliament we know - - the parliament we know now is a white parliament only. Now, doctor, just read paragraph 4; I ^ust want to read that to you. Is it possible -"Can such a radical change be made little by little, by one reform after another, by a long period of small concessions to the idea of race equality? Let us look at South Africa as it is. Is it the Parliament alone that rules? Clearly it is not. A parliament that speaks only for a tiny minority of the people could never have any real authority or be able to make its rule effective. Parliament is the only body that makes the laws fftr the ruling class, but its authority and ite rule is upheld not by its support amongst the people but by the armed force it controls. This force we call the State. It consists of many things; it consists of the polioe, paid and armed to uphold the laws of the ruling class. It consists of the permanent army, to back up the police whenever necessary, against the people at home, or enemies abroad, who threaten the rule of the present ruling class. It consists of the judges in the Courts and the warders in the prisons who preside over its class laws, and inflict punishment to see that they are complied with. These special bodies of armed men separated from the daily lives and sufferings of millions of the people are the force which makes up the State. Besides them the ruling class has other institu-

38 11138 DR. GONCO tions which prop up its authority rule and lend strength to its State power... It has in its hand all the institutions of education which it uses to bring South Africans up to believe that racial discrimination is necessary for the survival of the white man and for the protection of the black, and at the same time shows the race discrimination is both just and profitable for the citizens; in the same way the ruling class controls the radio, the cinema abd the daily press through which the thousands... in its insiduous ways it sows the same seeds? Ideas. "It is clear that such a rule as this cannot be set aside by minor concessions and reforms. In the end such a State apparatus, built upon the foundation of oppression and exploitation, and existing only to uphold oppression and exploitation can never serve the ends of the people of the Congress Movement. The Congress Movement must build for itself a new kind of rule, a new kind of State, a State of peoples equality and liberty - that kind of State we call a Peoples Democracy". Do you agree with that view, doctor? Yes, a new kind of State in South Africa.. I agree with the view. You agree with everything set forth in this paragraph? Yes. Now, doctor....? When they refer to a new kind of State I understand a new kind of State to "be a state with the institutions as they have them, in that there will be a sweepong change when Parliament changes and has all the people represented in South Afeica, all the coloureds represented in Parliament,

39 117n PR, OONCO 1139 and referring for instance to the judiciary and so on, 1 * at will have Africans also and other races to be elected in their positions in the Judiciary - - that's the new kind of State I understand it to mean. I agree with it. Yes, and you also agree, doctor, that that type of State cannot he achieved by a series of minor oon- 5 cessions and reforms? I mean, we don't expect this to come quickly; it will he a gradual change,nhut very minor concessions wouldn't alter the situation; minor concessions - - we want major concessions. What do you mean, you don't expect it to oome 10 quickly? I mean it's a gradual process. Was that always the view ofthe African National Congress, that this was going to he a gradual change? That's how I interpreted it. Gradual in what respect? By a series of re- 15 forms until you get what you want? I don't imagine when we get the vote tomorrow for instance - - hut we just have to pack the Courts - - we have no training to run the courts - - that's what I mean - - it doesn't follow that if we get the vote tomorrow and Parliament 20 passes an Act that the judges must he representative of the people - - I mean, you wouldn't expect anybody to be picked and put on the Bench; that's what I mean by gradual. Now, doctor, how is it possible, how can such a great"and sweeping change be brought about, only by organising the great strength of the common people of South Africa to struggle around a common programme which will give them a vision of what a magnificent 30

40 DR. C0NC0 life can "be theirs tomorrow if they work for it. Only by gathering all the oppressed people and the liberty loving people together into a single nighty camp which which will work to win, not only the small concessions and reforms but which will also work to over turn the very basis of Imperialist oppression. This is the task for which the Congress Movement exists. While organising the people in every little fight and struggle of their idaily lives, it must put forward to them a programme of? sweeping changes which will unite all the different sections, all the different racial groups and classes... "? Could you just stop for a moment, I'm lost here - - from where are you reading? From the top of page 3, doctor? Oh, I see. Have you got it? Yes. Just before I get to that there is a passage which reads: "The Congress movement must find a way to explain to the people in words they can understand what a Peoples Democracy is. This is the task that lies before the Congress Movement." Is that correct? Yes, I follow that. Then it gives a definition of what a Peoples Democracy is? Yes. Is that correct? Yes, I follow that. Now, doctor, subject to the qualifications that you made, you say you agree with the passages read out to you? Yes, subject to certain aspects. I will submit, doctor, that apart from your personal view^, that this document represents the attitude of the African National Congress, is that correct?-

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