Now in your notes of Moretsele there is no mention of the fact that, I take it the Congress Movement, preaches

Transcription

1 D/SGT. EAT TINGH Now in your notes of Moretsele there is no mention of the fact that, I take it the Congress Movement, preaches peace and friendship and therefore Christianity; what you have there is "...for peace among races, not hatredt, we do not know what Christ you represent". There is nothing there to the effect that the organisation preaches peace and friendship and therefore Christianity". That is so, is it not? Yes. I suppose that was a sentence which you were unable to get down? Possibly. Would you concede that you must necessarily have, in recording these speeches, omitted sentences which pursued a similar theme? I have already said, my lord, that I left out sentences. And you may have left out sentences which preach a theme, or which have a theme similar to the one that I read out to you? It can possibly be. As a matter of fact, Mr. Hattingh, you will remember at the Preparatory Examination you were given a test of your ability to record speeches? Not to my knowledge. Not? That is correct, my lords, I see that this was a different witness. It's my mistake. Anyway, I content myself, Mr. Hattingh, with your confessi on that you may have left out numbers of sentences of this sort which have a similar theme? Possibly yes. Right. Now I would refer you to E^iibit G.13 again, and if you will have a look at the transcript and refer to page 4. This was summarised by my learned friend for the Crown but I would like to read it in full. The

2 P/SGT. HMIM, middle of the page, Mr. Hattingh, "The Prime Minister, Mr. Mr. Rakoesjee spent 19 years in gaol". RUMPFP J; Mr.Berrange, whose speech is this? MR. BERRANGE; Admed Mohamed Kathrada. My lord, this is a speech by "In Czechoslovakia President Kodwal spent 10 years in gaol. In India Nehru is the Prime Minister. He was not liked by the white people but he fought and won. Mr. Nehru spent 19 ;years in gaol. In the Gold Coast Dr. Nkrumah walked from gaol right into the Prime Minister's seat." That is right, is it? Yes. Now I want you to turn to the next page, page 5 t and I want to read from the middle of the pages "Ons veg tans vir die behoud van ons grond waarvoor ons voorvaders hard gewerk het. Hierdie verwydering van die swart ~kolle..." and this is underlined by you - " MR. TERBLANCHEs My lords, I would like to know if it is the same speaker who is alleged to be saying "this? MR. BERRANGENo, this is Joseph Molife. "...van die swartkolle is f n saak wat elke "African" in Afrika raak. Julie moet neg wag op die wooord van julle leiers wat om te doen, en hoe om te veg. Ons waarsku die blankes dat alhoewel ons hulle gereedskap is deur ons van ons huise te verwyder ons nie die gereedskap van Verwoerd gaan wees nie. As julle hier die wapens opneem sal julle groot battallions kry van Alexandra en elders wat julle sal help in die stryd." Now, Mr. Hattingh, what weapons was the witness - can you tell us, was the speaker referring to? It is possible, is it not, that you may have omitted something that would explain that? Not as far as I can remember.

3 d/sg-t. hattingh I'm asking you whether you it is posable that you nay have omitted some sentence which would explain his reference to weapons. Is it possible or is not? I cannot say now whether I left something out or not. Well, you will concede it's possible because you have already told their lordships that occasiohally you are apt to miss sentences; is that not so? Yes, I do miss some. And after having spoken about Mr. Verwoerd the speaker may have gone on to describe what the weapons of this organisation are and then gone on to say "As julle hier die wapens opneem sal julle groot battallions kry van Alexandra en elders... wat julle sal help in die stryd"? It can be. That is possible. And the weapons which he may have referred to could have been such things as organisation, unity, education and passive resistance; any one or all of those? Not that I know of. I say it could have been, Mr. Hattingh; I'm not asking you; you have already told us you cannot remember?- It can be. That's all I want to know. Then I want to refer you to page 6, that is Robert Resha,'s speech. By the way before I go on with this, I notice that with him, as with other speakers, you start off by saying "Resha was die volgende spreker and het onder anderer gese". That means amongst other things he said what you have recorded? Yes. Well, that again indicates that you have by no means recorded all that the speaker said? Not word for word. No. And before I go on with the theme I was

4 D/SGT.HATTINGH pursuing I would like you to tell their lordships whether 1 these were the exact words used Toy Resha when according to you he is recorded as having said "We have met many a time on this square what are we doing actuall we are digging a grave for the Malan Government and the Socialists". Come on, those are the words you've got here? y Those are thewords he used and I wrote them down. Are you sure, "Digging a grave for the Socialists and for Dr.Malan", for the Malan Government and the Socialists? That's what I've got down here. So you are suggesting that the speaker was ^ equating the Malan Government with the Socialist Movement? That is how I wrote it down here. You couldn't possibly have made a mistake, Mr. Hattingh? I've got it down like that. I'm asking you, couldn't you possibly have ^ made a mistake? No. possible. Is it possiile? I can't see how it can be The word used may not have been Socialist - it may not have been Nationalist; The Malan Government 20 and the Nationalists? It could also be. So you are not so certain now? It can be that I heard the words wrongly. I see. Anyway, let's go on with what Resha had to say. I refer you to the middle of the page 25 where you have recorded him in the following way: "Malan uses the innocent uneducated and starving Dutch to report for him; he does not come t o the meetings himself. The Dutchmen come here to the meetings to keep Malan in his position so that when the kaffirs

5 D/SGT. HATTINGH run amuck they will kill the poor Dutch policemen." Have you got that? I've got it. Is it possible that you may have made a mistake there, as you have made mistakes earlier? I don't know. Is it possible that what the speaker was saying was something of the following nature: "The Dutchmen come here armed to the meeting" not that the Dutchmen come here to the meeting, but "that the Dutchmen come here armed to the meeting", and that you left the word 'armed' out? I didn't write it down here, I don't know whether it was said. You wouldn't deny it? No, I can't deny it. And that he then went on to say, having said that the Dutchmen came there armed to the meeting, he went on to say "to keep Malan in his position thinking that when the kaffirs run amuck they will kill the poor Dutch policemen"; is it possible that he said that? It can also possibly be. And is it possible that thereafter he went on to explain "that their form of struggle, however, that this was not their form of struggle, and that they fight by educating and by passive resistance". Is that possible? It can be. I see. Then I'd like torefer you to the penultimate paragraph on this page where you have the following words, "The Government wants to stop the start of a Mau Mau and Cheesa movement. There is no such organisation here. Let me educate the Government. We have no intention even to start such organisations here. We struggle in our way. The struggle at Kenya is being fought in the foresrs of Kenya but our battle will be

6 D/SGT. HATTINGH fought in Eloff Street. There it took the Kenya people only eighteen months to make their own machine guns", Now will you concede that by leaving out some sentences you took the whole theme out of its context? Yes. That the speaker was in fact indicating that although in Kenya they were fighting in the forest that in this country the struggle would be an industrial struggle which would be bought amongst the businesses and factories? That's possible. I don't talk about anything that I have not written down. Would you concede that that may have been the theme of his speech? I don't know. Would you say it could have been? I don't know. Do you deny it? I don't know. Very well. And would you concede... RUMPFF J: Will you just repeat what it may have meant? MP. BERRANGE; That although - words to the following effect, "That although in Kenya the battle was being fought in the forests, in this country the struggle is an industrial struggle and would be fought in the places where the businesses and factories are". And would you concede that with reference to the mention of machine guns he might have said words to the following effect; "That despite the fact that the Kenya people are being shot and machine gunned their struggle has been going on for eighteen months"; is that possible? I don't know. Very well. You should be able to know whether something is possible. I take it that you are not denying

7 D/SGT.HATTINGH - "by saying "Ek weet nie" - I take it you are not denying that that may have "been said, or that may have "been the theme, let me put it to you that way? I can only speak in regard to what I've written down here. Which, as you have already conceded, may "be out of context? Possibly. Yes. Now, Mr Eattingh, I have referred you to two meetings which are to be found on exhibits G.54 and G.198, dated 28th November, 1954, and the 2nd November, 1955, respectively? Yes. And you will recollect that it is from tfcnee 10 two meetings that I have quoted to you a number of instances of unintelligible reporting? Portions of it,yes. Now I invite your attention to Exhibit G.13, but before I do so I would like to get this clear from you. G.54 and G.198 are the notes which you actually made at 15 the meeting? If I can see them I'll be able to say. I thought you had them in front of you Would you please hand the notes to the witness, Mr.Terfolanche? Yes. 20 G.13 is a report that you made after the meeting had concluded, from notes which you say have now disappeared, and also as a result of the matter still being fresh in your memory? Yes. Now, I don't know whether you will agree with me, Mr. Eattingh, but I have perused G.13 very carefully 25 and with the exception of the one sentence in which you spoke about their digging a grave for Malan, for the Malan Government and the Socialists, I think you will concede that both the Afrikaans as well as the English is written in most grammatical and intelligible manner? 30

8 D/SGT. HATTINGH I can find nothing ungrammatical or unintelligible in 1 your report of this meeting? Yes. Now I think that you conceded at the Preparatory Examination that at this meeting of the 2nd May, 1954, a shorthand writer attended this meeting? Is that correct? No. 5 Oh, well then I may Toe wrong; let me refer to my notes. Well, a whole page was spent in trying to put the same question to you until the learned Magistrate took the matter up with you, I having put the question to you half a dozen times, "Would you concede that there 10 was a shorthand writer present", and not having had an answer from you, the Court then said this: "I think it is obvious, the answer to that question is so obvious; if you have no knowledge of it, unless you can say it is not possible without your knowledge? (A) I don't know 15 whether there was one or not", that is a shorthandwriter. Then the Court says: (Q) Po I understand it is possible that a shorthandwriter did arrive and that you had no knowledge of that? (A) I got no knowledge of a shorthand writer there". Then a further question was put to 20 you, "Is it possible that one arrived without your knowledge, that's all I want to find out - it is very simple," and your reply was "I won't deny that there was one". Is that correctly recorded? I had no knowledge of a shorthand writer being there. 25 You won't deny that there was one present there? No. I think that's what I put to you, that one may have been there. You see, Mr. Hattingh, perhaps you could explain to their lordships how it comes about that 30

9 D/SGT. HATTINGH a% the meeting I have already referred to in G.54 and G.198 were reported with so much unintelligibility, and this meeting reported in G.13 is so completely grammatical and intelligible to understand? There are so many factors which are concerned. The position where you either stand or sit when you take down the notes, the audibility of the voice of the speaker, and as to whether or not he makes use of interpreters. Yes? Speakers for instance who speak through two interpreters could be taken down more fully and clearly than a speaker who speaks in English. That is possibly the explanation for this. Are we to understand from you then, Mr,Hattingh, that the meetings which are reported in Exhibits G.54 and G.198 were msetings in which all the speakers, in which you had great difficulty in recording all the speakers, whereas in Exhibit G.13 you had no difficulty in recording any of the speakers. Is that your suggestion? Yes. So at this meeting, G.13, all the speakers were intelligible and you were able to report them intelligently? Yes. I see. Is it not due to the fact, Mr.Hattingh that after the meeting you then referred to your notes or had assistance from somebody else for the purpose of enabling you, particularly in English with which you are not well acquainted, to give an intelligent and grammatical report to Compol. Isn't that what really happened? No, those notes I took down myself. Prom your own notes? Are you referring now to the report...

10 D/SGT.HATTINGH Yes, I'm referring to the report because your 1 notes are missing, Mr. Hattingh? It is a report that I compiled myself. Prom your own notes? Yes. Which are missing? The notes I made myself. Which are missing? Yes. 5 And you can't assist us by saying where they are or how they come to be missing? I've already said I can't find them. I see. Of course you will acknowledge that in 1954 instructions had already gone out from your superior 10 officers - - we have it over and over again in the evidence - - that notes should not be destroyed but that they should be sent forward together with the report to Compol. You do agree, don't you? That is so. Did you send your notes forward then in terms of 15 those instructions? I attached them to my report. I don't know who took them off. I want to put something else to you in regard to this meeting. I have already suggested to you, and you have agreed with the possibility, that all the speakers 20 there spoke in the English language Now I want to suggest something else to you, that the order in which you have got the speakers down in your report, Exhibit G.13 is not the correct order, inasmuch - I want to put it to you - that the speaker Molife spoke before the speaker 25 Kathrada? Not as far as I can remember. You concede that that is possible, if evidence to that effect is given in this Court? Not in terms of my report. I'm asking you whether it is possible? Not in 30

11 D/SGT.HATTINGH in terms of my report. You say it is impossible that that could be the position? According to my report it was not so. Very well. Now, I want to refer you to Exhibit G speech by Wundla at page 5 of the transcript. Have you got it? I haven't got the transcript; I've got my original notes. Well, in order to facilitate matters would the Crown hand the witness the transcript please; it will save time looking through his notes. You were asked to read the last two sentences of Wundla's speech, which 10 indeed you did Have you got it? Page 5, third paragraph, and the sentences which you read out were the following: gepraat nie "Action time - " Ek het nie van "D" day - "Action time will be told in good time. Informers will have to stay away on the day of announce- ^ ment". Remember reading that out? Yes, I remember that. Well, I would like to read that in its context. That is from the beginning of that paragraph; read it out to you and you can tell their lordships I'll just 20 whether you confirm it: "I have no confidence in the South African Police, all of them. "Pie mense se dat ek instruksie gehe dat die polisie moet verwyderwoord. Ek doen en beroep op julle, Julie moet niemand raolesteer nie, Ek dra kennis van die polisie bedrawyderhede.ek 25 het baie berighewe van persone wat omgekoop is - Bantu Werld het verklaar berig gegee Ek het nie van "D" Day gepraat nie soveer. Is that what preceded those words, what I've read out? I must refer to my original notes. 30

12 P/SGT. HATTINGH Well, please would you read, "I have no 1 confidence in the South African Police", have you got that? Yes I've got it. Please read on? "I have no confidence in the South African Police, all of them, Die mense se dat ek instruksies gegee het dat the polisie moet verwydewoord. 5 Ek doen beroep op julle, Julie moet niemand molesteer nie..." Those are the only words I am interested in. Is that correct? That is not my handwriting. In whose handwriting is it? Sgt.Hellburg. 10 May I see your notes please. So the position then is this, is it, that you and Sgt. Hellburg took turns at recording this mepting? He only wrote down that portion. Were you present when this language was used 15? We were both there. And you won't deny that that is what the speaker said? No, I won't deny it. The position is that you then got as far - or Mr.Hellburg got as far as saying "Ek het baaie berig 20 in persone wat om gekoop het Bantu wereld het geklaar berig gee Ek het nie van "P" day gepraat nie sover. Immediately afterwards you went on? Yes. Action Pay, Action Time will be told in good time. Informers will have to stay away on day of announcement? 25 Yes. Isn't there something missing between the time that Mr. Hellburg left off writing and at the time that you started writing? It can be. And you will see that Mr. Hellburg has recorded 30

13 D/SGT. HATTINGH most of this in Afrikaans? Yes. 1 And you have recorded it in English? Yes. Are you suggesting that the Speakers switched from one language to the other? They do it many times. Are you suggesting that they did it in this case, in this instance? It can "be. 5 But is it not a fact Mr. Hattingh that when a speaker Spoke in English you recorded it in English? If possible, yes. Are you really suggesting that Wundla spoke Afrikaans at a meeting of the African National Congress. ^o Are you serious? I don't believe so. Nor do I. MH. TERBLANCHE: My lords, I am under the impression that I read in this morning only the portion taken down by this witness If I inadvertently started a sentence or two earlier, I apologise to the Court. RUMPFF J; Yes. MR. BERRANGE; I think as a matter of fact, my lords, my learned friend started at the place at which this witness says he took over. That's my re- 20 collection. And I would like to refer you to Exhibit G.54, that is this meeting of the 28th November, I have already referred you to the one passage that is on the first page,in another context where I pointed out that you had recorded the witness as having said 25 "the police can get all and say Congress wants to with- r / draw Chiesa Chiesa A.N.C. non-violent. This is a nonviolent struggle." Then at page 5 of your transcript and it is to be found on page 2145 of the Record, from which I am now quoting.,..? I haven't got the transctipt 30

14 d/sgt.hattingh here, my lords. 1 I'm quoting from your evidence in Court. You said a "Native man Poho said the following sentence, after having spoken about 50,000 volunteers to work each day and every day etc., etc., he's recorded as having gone on to say: 'Our Minister, the Minister of 5 Southern Rhodesia is a man. Our Minister is not a man ; ours is mad. We will get freedom. We willobtain freedom. Long Neck has banned Sofade and Nokwe. We fight with our brains, not like the police with their rifles. We can also be cowboys like the police. Our rifle is our 10 brain and our mouths." Is that correct? I have recorded here in my original notes 'Our rifles or guns are our mouths and brains." Furthermore I have noted here 'If the police think they are mad and strong our youth are just as mad as them." 15 Would you be so kind as to answer my question. That is, that you have recorded "We fight with our brains, not like the police with their rifles"; that so or is it not? I read out - I've got "Our rifles are our mouths and our brains". 20 I think you had better look at your original notes if there is going to be an argument about this, because I am quoting you from your own evidence given at the Preparatory Examination at page 2145 where you recorded the speaker as saying the following: "We 25 fight with our brains not like the police with their rifles; we can also be cowboys like the police. Our rifle is our brains and our mouths", and in the transcript which is in Afrikaans you've got the same sense there "Ons veg met ons verstand. Nie soos die Polisie met ge- 30 were nie. Ons kan ook "cowboys" wees soos die Polisie.Ons geweer is ons mond en brein'.' Yes, I've got it here,on my original note. is

15 D/SGT. HATTINGH That's all I want. Thank you, my lords. That will be cross examination on behalf of all the accused, my lords. RE XD. BY MR. TERBLANCHE: Mr Hattingh, the only native language which you took down when a speaker used that was Xosa? Yes. And in other cases you said the native language was interpreted? Yes. Now the interpreter from whom you took it, was that an interpreter who only interpreted for you? to.i What interpreter was it? It was an interpreter who was used by the meeting. You've also said that interpreters sometimes did not interpret correctly? Yes. Can you explain to the Court in what way they did not interpret correctly? In some instances where a Xosa uses a Zulu name or where for instance he might use the word "Shaia" or he might use the word "Ndeta"(?). So if he interprets from Xosa then he uses the word "shaia", then that word could be incorrect; it would not be the correct interpretation. What I am driving at is this; if a speaker spoke in Xosa and the interpreter interpreted in English you understand Xosa, can you tell the Court what mistakes he made or how he didn't give a true interpretation; can you remember? I cannot remembg? specifically where such misinterpretations were made, but I know for a fact that I've heard words where the interpreter did not give a correct interpretation of what the speaker said. Mr.Hattingh, taking down your notes, did you

16 D/SGT.HATTINGH at any time leave out anything deliberately? No. You did not only concentrate on things which could count against the person making the speech? I've always tried to write down as far as possible what he said, or as near as possible, what he said. And in writing down did you pay any attention to the context in which it was said? Yes, to have it as far as possible in context. You were referred to a meeting of the 28th November, 1954, Mr.Hattingh, G.54? Yes. If you compiled a report of that meeting, after the meeting, do you think that would put you in a better position to refresh your memory as to what actually happened at the meeting? Yes. Will you look at this document which I hand you now and see if you can identify it? Yes. What is that document. MR. BERRANGE: This, I understand, from the the question you put to the witness, is a report which is based upon the notes which have been placed upon this Court, Exhibit G.54, my lords. As I have had no sight of this report there has been no cross examination on this report. RUMPFF J: Is this G.54? MR. TERBLANCHE: No, my lords. As the question indicated, if he had compiled a report from G.54, whether that would put him in a better position to refresh his memory and tell the Court what happened at that meeting, my lords. RUMPFF J: But doesn't that speak for itself? MR. TERBLANCHE: My lord, certain remarks

17 D/5GT.HATTINGH were made in regard to G.13, which is a report, that it was in good English, grammatical, and certain suggestions were made in regard to that, my lords. RUMPFF J: But isn't it obvious if you take notes at a meeting and you write it quickly and you leave out sentences, then that is that; if you thereafter write a report, then obviously it's supposed to be grammatical and coherent. You wouldn't writ^ a report unless you made copies of the notes. MR. TERBLANGHE: As your lordship pleases. But certain suggestions were made, my lord. I won't press that any further. MR. BERRANGE: No further questions, my lord. May it please your lordships, I should have during my cross examination have made an application to put in as exhibits the notes to which the witness has referred. I would like to apply at this stage to put in Exhibits G.198, G.54, G.1174 and G.13, my lords. All these exhibits have been referred to by the witness, my lords, in chief and in cross examination. RUMPFF J: Yes. Thank you, Mr.Hattingh.

18 BELT 104A D/SGT.HELLBURG ALBERTUS STEFANUS JACOBUS HELBERG S.S: 1 XL. BY MR. TERBLANCHE: Mr. Helburg, are you a detective sergeant in the S.A.P.? Yes. And are you attached to the Security Branch? Yes s I am. And are you stationed at Johannesburg? Yes. 5 Since when have you been attached to the Security Branch? Since August, And during the period of your serving on the Security Branch did you attend meetings of the African National Congress? Yes, 10 And did you also come in contact with a committee called "Let the People Speak Committee"? Yes. My lords, the first meeting is a meeting on the 13th December, Mr.Selburg, I hand you a document marked G.289. Will you look at that document 15 and see if you can identify it? book. That is my pocket Will you turn to page 67 of that pocket book; have you got any notes there? Yes. What notes have you got there? It is notes 20 of a meeting that I took. When did you make those notes? At the beginning of the meeting. Did you make all the notes during the course of the meeting? I did. 25 And have you today an independent recollection of everything that happened at that meeting? Yes. Can you tell the Court without referring to your notes... BEKKER J: He said he's got an independent 30

19 D/SGT. HELBURG recollection. 1 MR. TERBLANCHE: My lorda, may I put the question in a different way. BEKKER J: Do you want another answer? MR. TERBLANCHE: Can you, without referring to your notes today tell the Court everything that happened 5 at that meeting, Mr. Helburg? No. If you are allowed to refer to your notes would you he able to tell the Court what happened at that meeting? Yes. I ask permission of the Court for the witness to 10 be allowed to refer to his notes. RUMPFF J: Yes. MR. TERBLANCHE: Your notes, Mr. Helburg, did that correctly reflect everything that happened at the meeting, and what was said? Yes. 15 According to your observations? Yes. Mr.Helburg, what meeting was this? I have written it down in my book here as the A.N.C. meeting. And the date of that meeting? The 13th December, Where was it held? At a place called Dadoo Plain, Moroka, Johannesburg. Now at what time did this meeting start? It started at p.m. Can you, by referring to your notes and re- 25 freshing your memory, tell the Court who was the Chairman of this meeting? The chairman at this meeting was Philomon Mothole. Do you know Philomon Mothole? I know Philomon Mothole.

20 D/SGT. HELBURG If he is present in Court would you he able to l identify him? Yes, I can identify him. Will you step down and do so? (Identifies accused No. 8). Now did Mothole address the meeting? Yes, he did. 5 And did he call on speakers to address the meeting? He did. Who was the speaker he introduced? Philamon Nokwe. I want to refer you to the last portion of 10 what he said; "Before I call will you just read that to the Court, "? "Before I call my first speaker I introduce to you speakers to address you, Dr.Padoo, Mr.Mandela. We are still expecting one of our great men J.B.Marks. These people are going to "be re-born 15 to-day." Then who addressed the meeting first after the Chairman? Nokwe did. Do you know this person Nokwe? I know him. Are you able to identify him if he is in 20 Court? I could identify him, yes. Step down and do so? Identifies accused No.16). Now, he started off by saying - he was bringing a message from 100 million people; that 25 Malan and Swart have no support from the people of the world? That's rigit. Then he went on ; will you refer to page 71 of your notes, "I come from a place..." have you got that? "Yes. 30 L

21 D/SGT. HELBURG Tell the Court, referring to your notes and refreshing your memory, what he said from there onwards? "I come from a place where Hitler - today Hitler and his followers are under the ground, and the people still live. You cannot enslave people for life. It is impossible to hold down 10,000,000 people. The people in this country will continue to speak and live. The oppression and "banning is past. The oppression and banning to speak are things of the past. Our leaders will continue to speak. Unite in order to bring better life for everybody." Thereafter the chairman said something again? 10 Yes. him. And who was the next speaker? Mandela. Do you know this person Mandela? I do know Are you able to identify him if he is in Court 15? Yes, I can identify him. accused No. 6). Step down and do so please? Identifies Now, did he start off his speech by saying that he joined the Congress in 1944? Yes. 20? Correct, And that he remembered the many difficulties And that he was a member of the National African Congress? Yes, And he referred to Dadoo and other leaders who 25 have been arrested and prosecuted under the Communism Act? Yes. And that Dadoo, Marks and others had been banned from the A.N.C. African National Congress? Yes. 30

22 D/SGT. HELBURG Then will you go a "bit lower down "These spies and informers..." RUMPFF J; have you got that? Haven't you got a transcript for the witness, Mr. Terblanche? MR. TERBLANCHE: Yes, my lord, I have. RUMPFF J: Well, I think it would facilitate matters if you gave the witness a copy. MR. TERBLANCHE: Yes, my lord. Mr.Helburg, did you during the week end check the transcript of your notes with your notes?-_ Yes, I did. And you have corrected that transcript where necessary? Yes. Is this the transcript? Yes. Referring to the transcript, page 2, fourteen lines from the top of the page, will you refresh your memory and tell the Court what the person Mandela said in his speech from there onwards? "We believe that when conditions change we must change our policy. The masses have created new conditions. It has become difficult to hold public meetings. The Dadoos and Marxew are no longer able to address you. The methods the Government took is meant the Government is recognising our movement. our struggle. We have got to employ new methods in It is no longer sufficient to speak from platforms. More work must be done behind the scenes even underground. The time has now arrived these illegal activities of our movement. Why cannot your leaders address you? Why should that be the position? When the call is made you will respond. The Government is not afraid of us because we are black. They are afraid of our spirit and that thing will no longer

23 D/SHT. HELBURG exploit us. Europeans Our freedom is a direct threat to the People say the Government and the police Force, the Army and the Navy ; aeroplanes. How can we get the Government out of the chair. These people are not aware of what happened in other parts of the world. In Asia the whites have "been driven out on the grounds that they have been exploiting for years. The English in India were driven out without firing one shot. The people refused to co-operate with the English and had to pack up and go. In Indonesia the Hollanders were driven out by primitive people. In Korea all the armies of various countries were were countered by an army of a small nation without food and primitive arms and today in Indo China, Malaya, the people are struggling for years. In our own ContiniLpt, in Africa, the Kekuyu use&. spears, they have been fighting for years against the British forces. Men are arrested castrated and shot dead. They pour boiling water on the breasts of women to obtain confessions. They take these women to the camps, rape them and shoot them dead. They can see the British Empire is crushing and falling to pieces. They are.. the flag of freedom and inspiring the people of the world." I'm sorry, my lords, I have made a mistake here "They are carrying the flag of freedom and inspiring the people of the world. These misdeeds are right in your middle." Then he went on to speak about passes and how the people were arrested for passes? That is so. And then he also spoke about conditions of the workers on the farms? That is correct. Will you on page 3 go to the passage starting

24 D/SGT.HELBURG "The place for each and every one..."? "The place l for each and every one for you is the A.N.C. The position is going to "be difficult. Some of you will "be shot. Some locked up. But you will not shed blood in vain. We will erect a monument for you next to Chaka, Work together with Indians and Coloureds and you must know 5 that you are 10 million in this country and 2 million Europeans. You must know it is because you have not yet come together that is why the Europeans are still able to oppress you. Dadoo, Mandela, Markx will speak long after Malan and Swart have stopped speaking. The Govern- 10 ment in this country is in your hands. The mere fact that the Government has banned your leaders shows that they are the future government of this country." That concludes his speech? Yes. Now who was the next speaker,refreshing your 15 memory? Dr.Dadoo. Will you refresh your memory and tell the Court what he said? "The Minister has sent an expert shorthandwriter. This is a meeting of "Let the People Speak Committee". You all rememer that Mandela and 20 myself were banned...," Yes. Then he read out the words of the ban? Correct. Will you turn to page 4 of the typescript and nine lines from the bottom of the page you have the 25 sentence "Mr.Mandela has told you.. "? "Mr.Mandela has told you what happened in different parts of the world. He told you of the Kekuyu. As soon as the British people realised what was going on in Uganda Tabanga fighting for his own land; they wanted to make 30

25 D/SGT. HELBURG him a good boy. He said 'NO,I want to stand with my people.' He was taken away "by plane to England. The straggle for freedom is going on all over the wide world. Whether the struggle goes on in Indonesia makes no difference. It is a struggle of the people. The tide in 1953 is turning The people are winning their freedom. It does not come They stand together and fight. We in our lifetime will ^ee that every African is free.... and schools. The days of Imperial Colonialism are finished. We are passing on to freedom, Afrika." KENNEDY J: Did you take that down in longhand? I did, my lord. Was there a shorthand writer present? No, my lord. Did you understand Dr.Dadoo's reference to an expert shorthand writer? He meant myself, my lord. I see. MR. TERBLANCHE: Did you know Dr. Dadoo at that time? I know him well. Then the chairman made a few remarks, is that correct? That is corredt. And who was the next speaker after the chairman? Alpheus Maleba. Did you know Alpheus Maleba? I know him. Refreshing your memory will you tell the Court what he said? "You who are oppressed in your own fatherland. The Government the present Government has clever people who are going to amend the laws to oppress the black men. Times will not go as they think. They must bear in mind we are not the old Africans. They must also bear in mind we are not the B.A. who were

26 D/SGT.HELBURG "bought by the Government. The children we send to school 1 are the future leaders. The Europeans has...us. they cannot do it any longer. They are separating us, and say that we must hate the different tribes. The Europeans have brought different churches to divide us. You must not attend church, they are all liars. It is 5 through the church that we have no land. With the bible in their one hand the police misled us and took our land. Police are the slaves of Imperialism". Imperialism, my lords, I didn't write out, I put IMP. "They have not had... or food. Sons and Daughters of Africa when you 10 were born in this country you were not meant to be slaves but freecitizens of this country. Police do not get enough pay. They are also slaves and are not free. The people who are struggling all over the world and Kenya want freedom. They are struggling for freedom-. 15 Freedom is not easily got. will get freedom through your blood. The day is coming when you i These people who are dying in Kenya and other parts of the world are fighting for their freedom. They stand together. Korea is still undefeated. Chomo Nyeka is defending his 20 land. We must do the same. We must not sit down and say freedom will come to us. black spots must be removed. The Government say the Each of us must do something to get freedom. We must be ready in the near future to face what is coming to us. Chomo Nyeka has 25 been in gaol for 7 years; we are with him; we will fight until the last drop of blood in our body..." You've read out that they must also bear in mind that they are not the B.A. Will you say what that stands for? The B.A. was also an organisation, I would

27 D/SGT.HELBURG say in opposition to the A.N.C. 1 Now Alpheus Malibe, what did you know him as? I knew him as a member of the African National Congress. My lords, that completes the evidence of this witness on this meeting. This meeting is referred to in the Policy Schedule on page 16. The next meeting 5 is a meeting on the 14th March, 1954, my lords, and this meeting is referred to in the Policy Schedule... KENNEPY J: What is it? MR. TERBLANCHE: It is a meeting of the 14th March, 1954, G.2, my lord. It is referred to in 10 the Policy Schedule at page 16, 30 and 34, and in Schedule C on pages 36 and 40. BEKKER J: Would you give me the references again please. MR. TERBLANCHE: In the Policy Schedule, my 15 lord,, on pages 16, 30 and 34. Mr. Helburg, I hand you a document marked G.2. Will you look at this document and see if you can identify it? BEKKER J: Has he got a transcript? MR. TERBLANCHE': Yes, my lord. 20 BEKKER J: Then give it to him at the same time. MR. TERBLANCHE: I also hand you a transcript. Pid you during the week end compare those two documents? I did. Now G2, what is that? G.2 are notes that I 25 made at a meeting. When did you make the notes? At the time of the meeting, while it was in progress. And are those notes correct; do they correctly reflect what happened and what was said at the meeting? 30

28 D/SGT. HELBURG Yes, my lord. And have you any independent recollection today of everything that happened and was said at that meeting? No, I would have to refer to my notes. And if you referred to your notes would you be able to tell the Court what happened? I would. I ask that the witness be allowed to refer to his notes, my lords. RUMPFFJ: Yes. (COURT ADJOURNED)

29 8509. COURT RESUMES ON WEDNESDAY, 3HP FEBRUARY, I960. AIIEARANCES AS BEFORE. :JAO ).BUg HSLBERG;, oath; EXAMINATION BY MR. TERBLANCHE CONTINUED s At the adjournment yesterday afternoon, you were dealing with a meeting held on the 14th March, You had already identified a document G. 2, and you had also verified that you had checked a transcript of this document and Their Lordships had given permission for you 5 to refer to these documents. Sergeant, in referring to the copy of your notes and refreshing your memory, could you just tell the Court again what meeting this was and where it was held? It was an African National Congress meeting, My Lord, and it was held at the corner of Morris 10 and Victoria Streets, Sophiatown, Johannesburg. There was an A.N.C. flag at the meeting. Who was the chairman of this meeting? Robert Resha was the chairman. Do you know this person Robert Resha? I 15 know him well. If he is in Court, will you be able to identify him? Yes, Will you step down and do so? (WITNESS IDENTIFIES ACCUSED NO. 17) 20 He then declared the meeting open? Yes. Yes. Then there was a prayer by another persd^? Who was that person? Simon Tyiki. Do you know this person? I know him. 25 Can you identify him if he is in Court? Yes. (

30 8510. (G. A. HELBERG) (G. 2) Will you step down and do so if he is in Court? (WITNESS IDENTIFIES ACCUSED NO. 21) After that did Ftesha speak again? Yes. And he first referred to a detective who was wearing a hat? Yes. And then he read from a leaflet? Yes. Will you tell the Court from there onwards what he said? "This must stop. \ They must know the property in Sophiatown have been bought by their sweat and lifetime savings. Shall we move? No. Shall we move?^no. All the people, young and old, are being called to this meeting to protest against the removal of people of Sophiatown^ ^fimong the speakers from overseas is Duma Nokwe. He visited England, Russia and China and Rumania. Henry Makghote was with him and he will be one of the speakers here today. This meeting/is being held under the auspices of the A.N.C. All you people want to know what is Congress doing.') Will you omit the rest of the speech and go to the last sentence of the speech. Did he then call on somebody there to address the meeting? "I will now call Mr. Tyiki to address you on the removal of the black spots." Did Tyiki then address the meeting? Tyiki addressed the meeting, speaking in Xosa. Is this the same person you have just identified? That is, My Lord. You didn't take down what was said by Tyiki? I did not, My Lord. After that, did Resha again address the meeting? He did, My Lord. What did he say, refreshing your memory?

31 / \ (G.A. H2LBSRG) "Sons and daughters of Africa, we have come here to discuss our way to freedom. You must not take any notice of the police present at our meeting. Mr. Nokwe during his travel overseas spoke to people about the struggle of the African people." 5 Who addressed the meeting after that? Nokwe did. ^. Do you know this person Nokwe? I know him. Is that the same person you have previously referred to? That is correct, My Lord. 10 And whom you identified as an Accused? Yes. Now will you just refresh jyour memory and tell the Court what Nokwe said? "Afrika! Sons and daughters of Africa. I feel most honoured today to 15 speak to the people of Sophiatown. We believe in the age of... The oppressors are trying... Throughout the whole world people are rising to challenge the tyranny. Even in South Africa we are challenging the tyrants. The people are rising and in every corner of Africa the 20 w people shout Africa. The tyrants are losing the battle. They are running about trying to close the mouths of our leaders. We left this country/ lawfully. The police were three hours late from stopping us leaving the country. I do not see why they want Scotland Yard to 25 V assist them in finding out how we left. V/e stayed a short while in London and went to Bucharest behind the Iron Curtaih. It is not the people on the other side who made the Iron Curtain. It is the people on this side who made the Iron Curtain. It is Britain and 30 South Africa who made the iron curtain. We told them that we are oppressed and moved about in this country.

32 8512. (G.A. HELBERG) We told them and wrote articles in the papers under what conditions we live in South Africa. I know the police are going behind our backs to obtain evidence against us to charge us. We went to Moscow to see whether the people of Moscow are eating brown bread. We saw they 5 had enough white bread and plenty of food. They were surprised at us having no appetite. We went to the University in Moscow, a very big place. students, how much you pay for education. I asked the I was informed that nothing was paid. At the same time the Russians 10 say we demand freedom for our people in other countries." We demand freedom for..."? freedom for every people in other countries. "We demand China has the biggest nation in the world, 600 million. I and Mr. Sisulu arrived in the North and travelled to the 15 South and saw the conditions of the people for ourselves. The Chinese people told us that they have struggled for freedom for 30 years. The Chinese were struggling against Am. and British imperialism. The trouble was that the American and British imperialists were removing the food 20 of the people. They struggled for 30 years to get their freedom. Today China has plenty of food and export food. America tried this to oppress Chinese again. Today the Chinese people say the Americans will not even try to... The Chinese people are free today and are prepared to 25 defend their freedom. We went around in China telling the people how we are suffering in South Africa. They told us to carry on and our freedom is at hand." And then he went on to describe his return to South Africa? That is correct. 30 And then in thatsame paragraph, towards the end, you have a sentence starting "The removing of people..."

33 8513." (C-.A. HELB3RG) Will you refresh, your memory and tell the Court what is said from there onwards? "The removing of people is exactly what Hitler did in Warsaw. I saw the people of Sophiatown to look upon the removal of Sophiatown as a mass removal of people in South Africa. The people must 5 rely on solidarity and stand together and the government of this country is in their hands. The lesson which I learnt is this, the "battle for freedom. young boys stood up for their freedom. In China the We learned from the Afrikaners the youth stood up and struggled against 10 the British imperialism and today they are free. But they make a dirty mistake. They oppress us. I tell you whether you like it or not, these masses of people are marching forward and nothing will stop them. I appeal to the youth to join Congress". 15 That concluded his speech? Correct, My Lord. Who was the next speaker? Robert Resha. Will you refresh your memory from your hotes and tell the Court what he said? "I emphasise unity 20 is strength. Dr. Verwoerd cannot separate us. We all want freedom.jfjsoine of us will die on the road of freedom. We all want freedom but none are prepared to sacrifice. Some of the people say the Africans are not ready to fight for freedom. We need every son and daughter 25 and soldier, we need moneyj With your jmonej I want to s^e if you are ready to fight Maian. We have got petition forms here and want the people who do not want to leave Sophiatown to sign them." After that, who was the next speaker? 30 Henry Gordon Makgothi was the next speaker. Do you know this person Makgothi? I knew him.

34 8512. (G.A. HELBERG) Do you know whether or not he was an Accused at the Preparatory Examination? He was an Accused at the Preparatory Examination, My Lord. Refreshing your memory from your notes, will you tell the Court what Makgothi said? "What we mean when we say freedom in our lifetime, we mean the next government when Malan is gone will he a government of the people of this country. We know the days of Malan are very short. In Egypt the people made the British to leave in three months. In East Africa Ikrumah is the Minister ofbthat country. We are going to get freedom in our lifetime. You must join Eongress. Congress is the hest answer to Dr. Malan. The United Party has told' Dr. Malan that they could oppress the Africans better than Malan. Nokwe told you that Malan want to remove the people from Sophiatown. That is exactly what-hitler did in Warsaw. J~The people in Poland knew our struggle very well. There are books in Poland on our Defiance Campaign I know in the world outside we have friends. The people outside know our struggle. I spoke to people since I came back, they asked me whether the people outside will. I. give us arms. I wonder if these people were policemen.» The people of Cohgress are honest. Any person who look to the outside world for help is no good to I spoke to young girls who have been captured by Hitler and sent to concentration camps. That is why I am pleased to see the young people present. If Dr. Malar starts shooting the people he will shoot the young. In loland I saw the grave of a young boy of seven years. He died for freedom. These people had no guns but when the c war started they joined the struggle. Even if it means walking through blood the people will get their f reedomtj

35 8512. (G.A. HELBERG) There are a few people who own the mines. Our people are brought to town to dig gold and after nine months are sent back home, what do they take home. They take away T.B. he African people are on the march.j^in^kenya today the slaughter of the people is going on. We are not deceived by the talk of Mau Mau. We know that the people of Kenya are fighting for freedom. We know the truth the future is ours I learned that the people achieved their freedom in I learned that the people of Rumania were oppressed by the Germans. I know 10 that the people of Rumania are prepared to lefend their country. The Africans will lie down their lives for fre-- dom. I have spoken to many people in Sophiatown. They stated that they will rather die than move fromsophiatown. Join the Congress. Congress is the only opposition to 15 Malan. Malan must be warned that there are many people who will refuse to move from Sophiatown. Malan will use any method to confuse the people. We want freedom and will get our freedom. The Koreans fought for three years against the Americans, British and S.A. We want to show 20 the Government and the police when the time has come children and everybody will risej^ I know that the Bantu Act was introduced to spoil the minds of the children and when they are told to take up arms against their own people they will do so. In Kenya the Africans are fighting 25 their own people. In Vietnam and same thing happens. In Korea Malan is preparing for a time when our people will rise for their freedom.j We shall fight to the bitter end. Freedom in our lifetime That concluded Makgothi's speech? Yes. 30 Did Resha then speak again? Yes. Will you refresh your memory and tell the Court

36 8516. (G. A. HELBERG) what he said? "The young people present are the cream of Sophiatown. They move forward and lead us. They will be removed by young policemen, 18, 19 years of age. They must resist removal. Not their mothers and fathers. must resist removal. What is wrong in dying God help those who help themselves. We must help our- A' selves and see if God will help us., We have spoken to { the government in all languages but still they do not I understand. What is left to us to do we must shake them.j Y^ ^ 10 He then only referred to the amount collected at the meeting? That is correct. That completes this witness' evidence on this meeting, My Lord. The next meeting this witness will deal with, My Lords, is a meeting of the 27th June, 1954 in 15 connection with which evidence has already been given. Evidence of this meeting was given by Detective Sergeant Coetsee and by Mr. Schoeman. Mr. IfiLberg I hand to you a document,will you see if you can identify it? These are notes that I made at a meeting, My Lord, on the 26th 20 June, When did you make those notes? At the time of the meeting. Were those notes correct? They were just notes that I took for myself, they are not a complete. 25 There was a shorthand writer there at the time who was taking notes of the meeting. Can you still remember everything that happened at the meeting today? No, not unless I refer to my notes. 30 If you refer to your notes, will you be able to tell the Court what you observed that day? Yes, My Lord.

37 8517. (G.A. HELB2RG) I ask that the witness be allowed to refer to his notes, My Lord. Mr. Hclberg, did you also check a transcript of those notes? I did. And corrected it? Yes. I ask that the witness he allowed to refer to 5 his transcript, My Lord. Now refreshing your memory from your notes, tell the Court what meeting this was? It was a Resist Apartheid Conference, My Lord. And where was it held? It was held in the Trades Hall, Johannesburg. 10 Now referring to your notes, who was the chairman? The chairman was E. P. Moretsele. Do you know this person Elias Moretsele? I know him well. Would you be able to identify him? Yes. 15 Will you step down and do so if he is present in Court? (WITNESS IDENTIFIES ACCUSED NO. 12) of Philip Vundhla. Was there an interpreter? Yes, by the name Do you know his initials? I.Q. Vundhla. 20 him well. Did you know him at the time? Yes, I know Refreshing your memory from your notes, will you tell the Court what Moretsele said? "Those who are not delegates will you please leave the hall without 25 any argument. We observe that there are people in the hall who are not delegates, will they please leave the hall." After that, who spoke, according to your notes? Philemon Mathole. 30 And then you have got certain names. Do you know what those names stand for? Why you put them in? They were elected on some Committee, My Lord.

38 8518. (G.A. HI1LB3RG) What are the names you have got there of the people who were elected on this Committee? I have got down Ihilemon Ma thole, Weinberg, Gwendu, Tyiki, Shope. And then on the Resolutions Committee, Hodson, E. Bhoola, Brown. 5 Do you know this person Gwendu youhave got down? I didn't catch his first name, but I know a man by the name of Bob Ngwendu. You don't know whether this was the same man? I don't know whether this Gwendu refers to the same 10 person. After those Committees had been elected, who spoke then? Moretsele. "We want everybody to be seated". And after that who spoke? 3. Brown. "I want to make it quiteclear to the conference that there 15 are 7 or 8 monkeys here. They came stright from the zoo. Look at them, 1, 2, 3, 4. pointing at the Detectives present. I object to hat remark by Aurett. And then Philemon Mathole s Don't let small things worry you." This person Ihilemon Mathole, do you know him? 29 Yes, My Lord. If he is present in Ccurt would you be able to identify him? Yes, My Lord. Is that the same person you identified yesterday? That is correct, MyLord. 25 as accused No. 8. Now after Ihilemon Mathole, who spoke then? - - Moretsele. Will you tell the Court what he said? "I think we will open our meeting. I think the cause that brought you here is a serious one. We here in 30 South Africa have a very... we want to live in peace." Just a moment. "We here in South Africa

39 8519. (G.A. H3LB3RG) have a..."? I left out a piece there, My Lord. " n incompleted sentence? Yes, My Lord. And then? "We want to live in peace. That is why you see us here we are a freedon loving people. The C.I.D.'s are here to represent Blackie Swart. We the 5 non-violent..." - incompleted sentence - ".. of the people. We invited people will not allow these people too. The United Party has no policy. This government has no policy." Then there was a speaker from the floor, and 10 who was that? Oliver Tambo. Do you know this person Oliver Tambo? I know him. Can you say whether he was an Accused or not at the Preparatory Examination? Me was an Accused at 15 the Preparatory Examination, My Lord- What did he say? "It is not clear to us whether some people broke in or whether they are delegates". And after that? I have two names down, 20 Philemon Mathole and S. P. Moretsele. "We explained at the door th.:.t this meeting is for delegates only. But some people gatecrashed." Then a speaker from the floor t "Mr. Chairman, can't you order them out". And then Mr. Moretsele ; "We want non-delegates to stand and 25 give their seats to the delegates." And then who was the next speaker according to your notese Huddleston. What did he say? "Chairman, ladies and gentlemen. It is not new in South Africa that police 30 attend our meetings. The Ministers often complaint that they are not represented, and the police give false reports.

40 8520. (G.A. HSLBEHGr) I hope the police will take correct notes and send sane to the Minister. I welcome the police at this meeting. Ladies and gentlemen ani members of the police, I would like to sing..." - uncompleted sentence, My Lord. "I hope you will forgive me if I repeat what I said ten months 5 ago. I repeat with greater conviction. I said then and I repeat..." uncompleted sentence - that I identify myself with the Non-JJuropean people of South nfrica in their struggle against unjust laws. I represent no person. I stand here as a man and priest. I stand for 10 the laws - These laws strike at the root of human life. The Christians proclaim justice and B. laws. Those laws are out to destroy. As a priest I believe it my duty. I believe with all my heart that apartheid are absolutely. You have many important discussionsto make. I want to say 15 a few words on certain aspects of legislation. I want to use a text in the Bible. Dr. Verwoerd said in June 2 in larliament. It is the policy of my Dep. that education.." - uncompleted sentence. "The Bantu must bo guided, There is no place for the natives in the European community 20 above the level of certain forms of labour." Will you just stop there. Who was the next speaker after that? Moretsele, My Lord. What did he say? "We have been told the truth of gathering. Look at the conference. You see 25 representatives. The day will cone that will meet like this in Parliament. If somebody takes something away from you you are called an agitator. The N.^.D. told people who are law abiling people not to attend the Conference. They are people who do not want to take 30 their rights away without their knowledge. You heard the message of your leaders. Everybody will have the right

41 Collection: 1956 Treason Trial Collection number: AD1812 PUBLISHER: Publisher:- Location: Historical Papers, The Library, University of the Witwatersrand Johannesburg LEGAL NOTICES: Copyright Notice: All materials on the Historical Papers website are protected by South African copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, or otherwise published in any format, without the prior written permission of the copyright owner. Disclaimer and Terms of Use: Provided that you maintain all copyright and other notices contained therein, you may download material (one machine readable copy and one print copy per page) for your personal and/or educational non-commercial use only. People using these records relating to the archives of Historical Papers, The Library, University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg, are reminded that such records sometimes contain material which is uncorroborated, inaccurate, distorted or untrue. While these digital records are true facsimiles of paper documents and the information contained herein is obtained from sources believed to be accurate and reliable, Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand has not independently verified their content. Consequently, the University is not responsible for any errors or omissions and excludes any and all liability for any errors in or omissions from the information on the website or any related information on third party websites accessible from this website.