Do you know a person J. Jack? Yes, I do know. You recall that he was a member of the. National Congress Cape Executive in 1954 to 1956? Yes.

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1 18040 PROF. MATTHEWS Professor, briefly I'd like to put to you the positions of some people accused in this trial? in the Eastern Cape who are not Do you know a person J. Jack? Yes, I do know Jack. You recall that he was a member of the African National Congress Cape Executive in 1954 to 1956? He was active at Korsten I think?-- That's right. He is a Korsten man. He was also Regional Secretary of the Eastern Cape Region of the African National Congress at one time?-- At one t ime, ye s. And he was an accused at the Preparatory Examination? He was. Another person, L. Kepe, is he known to you? He is known to me. He was Secretary of the Youth League New Brighton Branch 1955 to 1956?-- And he was also a member of the Executive Committee of the African National Congress at New Brighton? In 1955? That is of the branch. Yes, of the branch?-- And he was Vice-Secretary of the Youth League for the whole Province in 1956?-- And he was also a member of the Secretariat of the National Consultative Committee of the Congress of the People in 1955 to 1956?-- I don't know about that. He was also an accused at the Preparatory Examination? He was, yes. Next, the person J.G. Matthews, I believe that is your son? That is my son.

2 He was one of the leaders, the youth leaders of the Eastern Cape; is it fair to describe him thus? He was secretary of the Youth League in 1952 and he was also President or President-General of the National Youth League until I think June, If I may refresh your memory, Professor, 1954, was he not? do you recall a Cape Conference of the Congress and the Youth League at Uitenhage in June 1954, which was attended by you, and at that meeting of the Youth League the accused Resha was appointed to the position of President of the Youth League, and the reason cited was that your son was no longer able to occupy that position? Yes, he had been banned in He was no longer in the organisation....? 1953 actually, not He was also an accused at the Preparatory Examination? Yes, hewas. Then a person W. Mate, is he known to you in the Eastern Province? I know Mate, yes. He was President of the New Brighton Branch of the Youth League?-- And also a Treasurer of that branch of the Youth League at one stage? At a different stage, yes. And he was also an accused at the Preparatory Examination? He was. Professor, a person V. Mini; he is rather an important member of the Congress in the Eastern Cape, is he not?-- No, I wouldn't say so myself, that he is an important member. Is he intimately known to you? Yes, I know him fairly well. And do you recall that he was Treasurer mf the

3 PROF. MATTHEWS Regional Action Committee of the Congress of the People?~ Yes* In 1954 to 1955; that he was also Assistant Secretary of the Freedom Charter Consultative Committee for the whole of the Eastern Cape in 1955?-- Yes, he was. Do you recall that he was...?-- That does n't mean that he was a very important member in my opinion. Do you remember that he was secretary of the Youth League of the New Brighton Branch, 1954 to 1956? Do you remember that he was a member, an Executive 10 member of the African National Congress New Brighton in ? And that he was also a member of the African National Congress Volunteer Board in 1955? So that he was a man prominent in the affairs of 15 the New Brighton Branch, and indeed of the Eastern Cape as far as the African National Congress is concerned? I wouldn't say the whole of the Eastern Cape; as a matter of fact I would say many members of the Eastern Cape Congress wouldn't know Mini. He was active in 20 New Brighton. Yes, He was also an accused at the Preparatory Examination? He was, yes. is known to me. Next, Professor, a person P. Nqrta? Yes, he 25 He was secretary of the Youth League in the Cape in 1954? He was also secretary of the Action Committee of the Congress of the People, New Brighton, in 1955? 30

4 He was an Executive member of both the Mother body and the Youth League New Brighton in 1955?-- And he later in 1956 became secretary of the New Brighton Branch of the Mother body? Of the New Brighton Branch. Is that correct?-- That's correct, as far as I know. And he later became a member, in 1956, of the National Executive Committee of the African National Congress? In 1956? And lastly, Professor, do you know a person A. Mogaya who was active both at Korsten and New Brighton? Yes, I know Mogaya. You recall that he was in fact Chief at the Korsten Branch in 1955? Volunteer-in- Is that correct? That's correct, yes. And also that he was an Executive member of the Youth League, New Brighton, in 1955? Now just one or two general points, Professor. First of all there is a small matter of identity in which you may be able to assist us? Professor, in the course of the evidence in this case a letter was put to the accused Resha - - you know the accused Resha? I know the accused Resha, yes. A letter was put to him5 this letter was dated the 12th June, 1954, and it's a typewritten letter; it's addressed to 'My dear Robbie', and the writer of the letter signed himself 'Yours for Africa', and then in ink there's a J. and then typewritten the name (Dinku') and it was put to Mr. Resha - - my lords, I'm referring to page of the record. The accused Resha was

5 asked whether he could identify this person to the Court, this person Dinku, and he said that there was a Congress member in Port Elizabeth and that Dinku was his surname. It was put to him that this was quite an important man in Port Elizabeth and he conceded that this man was rather important. Now do you know a man in Port Elizabeth, active in Congress, called Dinku?-- No, I don't know anybody by that name. On the other hand, you do know somebody who calls himself Dinku? I beg your pardon? You do know a person who uses the name Dinku, do you not?-- No. Who is that? Well, Professor, in a letter here, Exhibit ZKM.l, my lords, written from 31 Mendi Road, New Brighton, Port Elizabeth on the 13th January, 1954, it's addressed to 'My dear Papa', and the concluding paragraph on page 2 reads; "How is everyone in Kimberley. So Peter got a sup. How is...who are going to Wentworth this year from home. By the way, Papa, can't I change my surname now to Dinku. Love to all, Bakwe". Do you recall this letter? Yes, I recall the letter. Who is the writer of it? The writer is my son. And does this reference to the name of Dinku which he sought to assume refresh your memory? Refresh it in what sense 7 In the sense that he may have referred to himself thereafter as Dinku?-- No, I certainly don't - - actually he was asking there. Dinku - he was asking whether he could assume that name, but to conclude from that that thereafter he assumed the name is, I think, fallacious.

6 18041* PROF. MATTHEWS Professor, this request to you, do you know what the reason was for for permission to use the name of Dinku? Well, I think the reason is an obvious one, the fact that we have a family name of Matthews; certain members of our family feel that we ought to use a Bantu name instead of the name Matthews. There is nothing sinis- ^ ter about it. Andthe Bantu name is Dinku? In your case? There is in our family a name of Dinku, yes. To your knowledge did your son ever use this name thereafter? No, to my knowledge he never used it. because I pointed out to him that there is nothing in a name. The son we are referring to is your son J.G. Matthews? That is right, yes. 15 Now, Professor, to return to the original question, do you know a man bearing the name - the surname Dinku who was active in....? In New Brighton? Yes? No, I don't know anybody by that name. Professor, is it fair to say from your position 20 that if there had been such a man he would have been bound to come to your notice? No.. Is it not likely that you would have known? - No, I wouldn't say that I know all the leaders of the A.N.C. in New Brighton. There are some local leaders who 25 would not be known to me..?-- It may be possible that there is somebody who exists by that name, but it has not come to my knowledge. Professor, I would like you to look at this 30

7 18041* PROF. MATTHEWS letter, the first one I referred to, which emanates from Dinku; just have a quick glance at the contents, and I'd like you to venture a guess as to the author of the letter - this is Exhibit RR.10, my lords, the letter that was put to the accused Resha?-- You wart me to read the letter? Yes, you need not read it out aloud; just glante over it and at the end of it I want you yo make a guess from your knowledge of affairs who the author of that letter is? No, I'm afraid I can't say from the contents just who the author of that letter is. No clues at all? No clues, no. Now, the other letter, ZKM.l - this is the letter admittedly from your son to you?-- The penultimate paragraph of that letter sayss "The Congress of the People idea is tremendous, but the danger we-foresaw is occurring already. From Sisulu's dangerous statement last week to local speakers here in Port Elizabeth the emphasis is on creating the basis for a new democratic government. Now quite clearly no government can tolerate that sort of thing. A brochure must be prepared like the Joint Planning 'C' Report which will pin down the authorities to the written document. I'm scared of these references to our government, or our parliament. Anyway, enthusiasm is very great for these plans and I can see 1954 is going to be a great year for the Congress." Now, do you recall this paragraph, Professor? Would you like to look at it? No; I recall it and in my opinion it is an entirely salutary warning. You agreed with this criticism which your sfn levelled against the statements by Sisulu?--- Well, I agreed that there was a danger, yes.) that there was a

8 danger that the people would look upon the Congress of the 1 People as an organisation and not merely as a campaign, and we did have to explain that from time to time. And you agreeed, too, with the injunction, with the suggestion that it would be advisable to pin down the authorities to a written document, to avoid speculation, 5 or criticism? Well, I don't know what you mean - - whether I agreed with that suggestion; there is nothing to indicate that I agreed with the suggestion; here was a warning... "A brochure must be prepared like the Joint 10 Planning Committee Report which will pin down the authorities to the written document". Do you understand what he is getting at in that sentence? Yes, I understand that. And you agreed? Yes, I think it was a salu- 15 tory thing... Why was it salutory to pin d»wn the authorities to a written document? To avoid misunderstanding; as it is it bas already arisen - - it has been indicated and suggested - - and that's why we are here - - that the Congress 20 of the People was an attempt to estbalish an alternative government. So that I think that warning there was a very salutory warning. Do you remember what the statements of Sisulu's contained?-- No, I don't remember the statements. 25 In connection with this danger, Professor, which your son foresaw, it was put to you yesterday that from many quarters suggestions were sent to you about the possible form and function of the Congress of the People, and you agreed that that was s«? Yes, that was so. 30

9 18041* PROF. MATTHEWS But when I was drafting the memorandum at the request of Chief Luthuli... And you recall that it was put to you that one of the suggestions that reached you suggested that amending acts be passed repealing reactionary legislation? And do you recall that at the Preparatory Examination a document was read into the record, a typewritten document called 'Draft Plan for the Organisation of the 'Congress of the People'. If I may just refresh your memory Professor, this document, this typewritten document, suggested that the National Executive announce the appointment of a Commission of Fourteen Members to go into the question of delimitation of the country into a number of constituencies. It also said that the Commission should recommend to the National Organisation the calling and the planning of a general election witb ballot papers and methods of nomination, registration of voters and so on. Also, that the African National Congress, after consultation with various groups, should fix a date for the holding of a general election. Also that after the election the President of the African National Congress should call the newly elected Congress of the People to meet, that its first meeting should if possible be on June 26th, 1954, and that a President and a speaker be appointed and a Cabinet approved by the President. And then it says: "The major tasks consists of a declaration of rights for the people of South Africa, and the drawing up of a Freedom Charter - that is to say a Constitution for the future South Africa. And then paragraph 9 of this document says: "(a) To pass Acts amending and repealing reactionary legislation of the white parliament and sub-

10 stituting for them Acts that should be on the Statute Book." I think it was this provision which you had in mind when you answered my learned friend on this point yesterday? Which provision? I think the point put to you, whether documents were sent to you in connection with the Congress «f the People - - -? And that some of them, or one of them suggested amending Acts to repeal reactionary legislation? Is this the document you had in mind? That is the document I had in mind. Then this document goes on to says "(9) To emphasi se the duality of authority that exists in South Africa, the one based on fear force and the other on mass support and democratic principles", and then it goes on to consider the political advantages of organising Congress of the People in this manner. (1) "To establish the position of the African National Congress as the leading progressive force in the country"; I take it you agree with that? Agree with what? Agree with that object, with that advantage of organising the campaign? What particular object are you referring to there? This is headed 'Political Advantages of organising Congress of the People in this manner'? That is in the uanner suggested in the document? Now, discarding for the moment the manner outlined, to which I have invited your attention, it then lists the following advantages; (I) "To establish the posit ion of the A.N.C. as the leading progressive force in the country"' Now, that is what you and the African

11 National Congress - one of the objects you sought to achieve through the Congress of the People Campaign? To do what? To establish the position of the African National Congress? But the position of the African National Congress was already established. We were not seeking to establish it, it had been established for forty years. But this would entrench the position of the A,N.C. as the leading progressive force in the country? Entrench? I don't know what you mean by 'entrench'. What I say is that the African National Congress is an established organisation; the Congress of the People was not intended to do anything more than to carry out one of its campaigns. Very well. is here listed is v The second political advantage which "To provide the people in this time of political lull with a positive programme thatdemands participatlon of all". I think that part of it at least had a particular appeal for you, correct?-- What part of it? This advantage, that it would provide the people in this time of political lull with a positive programme that demands participation of all? Well, that was the view of the writer; it was not necessarily my view. It's palpably clear that it was the view of the writer; I'm only asking you, was it also your view? Not necessarily, no; not necessarily. I mean, you are referring to a time of political lull and all that - - that's what the writer refers to... Do you consider that this was a time of political lull? No, I didn't consider that it was.

12 The next, the third political advantage is "To carry the aims and objects of the A.N.C. and its allies to the masses by means of a mass campaign that is within their strength at this moment". Now you certainly saw it as a mass campaign? The African National Congress campaigns all are mass campaigns. It always sought mass support for its campaigns. (4) "To provide practical demonstrations of our claims to full adult suffrage and strike a political blow at ideas of limited franchise rights by actually arranging and carrying the scheme in which all can vote". Well, that falls away because that part of the scheme was discarded?-- (5) "Simultaneously stand as a mirror of future society and creates mass popular front that can swing into mass action against Fascism at any time." Have you any comment on that alleged advantage, Professor? Well, I think it's a rather fanciful s tat ene nt of the possible result of the campaign. Is it a feasible one, casting your mind back to what you thought at this time?-- I beg your pardon? Is it feasible as it stands here?-- Feasible? Yes, you say the language is rather fanciful?--rather fanciful, Well, yes. making allowance for the romantic nature of the language, in essence do you agree with the sense of it?-- The sense of it, - - could you remind rre what the sense is? "Simultaneously stands as a mirror of future society and creates a mass popular front that can swing into mass action against Fascism at any time"

13 Well, to the extent that the writer meant that the object of the Congress of the People would be to draw up a Charter which would indicate the kind of South Africa that we would like to see, a mirror of the future - to that extent I would agree. Then (6) says; "Provide unique methods of creating a wide popular front consisting of Democrats of all races for coming battle with Fascism". Have you any comment on that?-- No, no comment; I've got no comment on that. (7) "Create duality of authority in the country and thereby reduce the prestige of the white parliament". Is that how you saw it? No, I certainly did not see the Congress of the People in that light. This was not, as I said before - we were not out to establish an organisation which was the only thing that could take the place of parliament, if it did want to do so. A campaign could not take the place of the Legislature. This duality of authority, in fact, would be the danger against which your son warned in the letter ZKM.l, is that correct?-- I beg your pardon? Would this be the very thing which your son was not anxious to have expressed by leaders of the African National Congress?-- Yes, so that people should not think of this as an organisation and not as a campaign. Yes?-- Tflen (8) " In the present situation provide legal activity that has tremendous implications if done properly lined with local campaigns and the 'M' plan and on the correct leadership"? I think that's just a lot of words.

14 Yes, so do I. (9) "Focus attention of the country and the world on the democratic forces in South Africa" -you have no objection to that; that accorded with your views I take it?-- I have no objection to that, no. Now, Professor, do you remember who the author of this document was? No, I cannot recall now where that document came from 5 all I know is that I did receive it. Yes? I'm not suggesting that these were your views, I just want to know whether you took any steps to trace the author of this document?-- No, I don't think I did. Can you remember whether this draft plan was accompanied by a letter? There possibly was, yes 5 it's quite possible, because I received quite a number of drafts - that was not the only one, - from different parts of the country. And you have no recollection now of where it came from?-- No, I have no recollection now of where it came from. Next, Professor, I'd like to deal briefly with a subject you've already discussed, that is the significance and the implications of the Defiance Campaign? Oh, yes. Now, you'll recall this article 'No Easy Walk to Freedom' by the accused Mandela? You say I recall it? Yes? I take it you'vestudied it?-- No, I have not. Did you know before the Preparatory Examination started in this case that there was such a document?-- No, I didn't.

15 And you have never read it? No, I haven 1 t read the document; I'd like to have a look at it please? I should preface my reference to the document, Professor, by saying that the evidence in this case is that it was produced by the Youth League in the Transvaal and apparently disseminated in lieu of a Presidential Address? I see. Or rather, it was released by the African National Congress as a Presidential Address of the Mother body, not the Youth League. I stated that badly? Oh, I see, was that a Presidential Address of the Mother Body? Yes? -What do you mean.... Well, a Presidential Address of the African National...? Of the National Conference? A Provincial Conference? Oh, Provincial, I see, yes. The concluding page of this article says; it's signed M.R.E. Mandela, President, African National Congress, Transvaal, 21st September, 1953, and then it contains the footnote "Released by the African National Congress Transvaal and published and distributed by the African National Congress Youth League Transvaal"? Yes, I see. It contains a foreword by the accused Resha in his capacity as President?-- issued by the Transvaal Province, That's to say it was but the foreword is by the Youth League? Yes, that's correct. I refer, Professor, first of all to page 1 of this article; it discusses the Defiance Campaign and midway down the page it says: "Defiance was a step of great political significance, it released strong social forces which affected thousands of our countrymen.

16 It was an effective way of getting the masses to function politically. A powerful method of voicing our in'dignationa gainst the reactionary policies of the Government. It was one of the best ways of exerting pressure cn the Government and extremely dangerous to the stability and security of the State. It inspired and aroused our people from a conquered and servile community of 'yes' men to a militant and uncompromising band of comrades in arms. The entire country was transformed into zones where the forces of liberation were locked up in a mortal conflict against those of reaction and evil." Then he goes on to describe the fact that the flag flew in every battleground and that thousands of our countrymen rallied around Now, Professor, what I want to put to you is this: it. I'd like your comments on this statement, that the Defiance Campaign was extremely dangerous to the stability and security of the State?-- I think it wasn'tmyself; I don't think the Defiance Campaign was dangerous to the security of the State, or the stability of the State. It didn't upset the State to any great extent. There was no possibility of the Defiance Campaign resulting in the overthrow of the State, so that I think the statement made by the author was perhaps an over enthusiastic statement of the aims. But that was certainly not the aim «f the Defiance Campaign. You sea, this very possibility of overthrow or collapse is considered a little later in the very next paragraph of this article where it says, "Today we meet under totally different conditions. By the end of July last year the campaign had reached the stage where it had to be suppressed by the Government, or it would

17 " V PROF. MATTHEWS impose its own policies on the country."? I would say 1 it is an extravagant assessment of the situation by an individual. Yes? It was something that you could not lay at the door of the African National Congress. not so?-- I was. At this time. Professor, you were in America, 5 Now you dub this a statement of an indivi- \ dual? On the assumption that this was produced in lieu of a Presidential Address, or Report, it would have re- 10 ceived the approval of the African National Congress Transvaal? No, Presidential Addresses don't necessarily receive the approval of the Provincial Conferences.... Presidential Addresses are read and discussed and agreed or disagreed with - - we debate it, we don't just accept what 15 an individual happens to say in an Address. Quite. Professor, do you think it is in any wise likely that the Transvaal A.N.C. would have released this statement unless they agreed with its contents?-- Yes, I think so. I mean, lots of the documents which you have 20 here in this case, documents for example like the 1954 Conferences, the 1953 Conference - - they are not documents representing what was agreed upon, but documents representing - - they wereworked with at the particular conference Before we consider the document perhaps I should further refer to the introduction by the accused Resha? I would like to have a copy of this document to refer to. I'd like to read the thing as a whole. RUMPFF J; Yes; wsr'll take the short adjournment. 3 C (COURT ADJOURNED)

18 ON THE COURT RESUMING; MR. HOEXTER; Professor, lest we quibble about the function of the document, let's look at onceto the foreword to the introduction; have you that before you? Yes, I've got that before me. 'At this critical stage of our struggle for freedom and democracy in our country and at a time when the Government is making it impossible for the oppressed people to meet and discuss their destiny as human beings, and banning the leaders of the people in the hope of crushing the liberatory movement, it has become more important than ever before that we compile our literature so that the people who are going to continue the struggle for a happy and prosperous South Africa are educated and guided on the tasks that lie ahead." Then it says;, "Here we submit a statement submitted to the African National Congress Transvaal by Mr. Nelson Rareshala Mandela, then President of the African National Congress, Transvaal, before he was banned by Minister Swart from talking to his people and leading them to freedom, but because the statement gave a thorough analysis of the political situation, A.N.C. particularly in our country the Executive of the Transvaal decided to submit the statement to the recent Conference of the Province as a Presidential Address." So, Professor, it is clear, is it not, that there can be not the remotest suggestion that this is merely the individual expression of a single person. This document carries the authority and approval of the Province in the Transvaal? I emphatically disagree. A Presidential Address does not in fact carry the authority of tbe organisation; it isn't so in National

19 Conferences, why should it he so in Provincial Conferences? These Addresses are in fact distributed to give the members, as indicated here, ideas, but it does not necessarily mean that those ideas are endorsed, either by the Provincial Conference or by the people who read them. Professor, for what possible reason do you suggest that the Executive of the African National Transvaal decided to submit the statement to the Congress recent conference as a Presidential Address? For what possible purpose?-- For the purpose of, as is indicated here, giving the members of Conference a lead on issues before the conference Educating and guiding? Yes, yes, certainly, but education and guidance, you know, as a teacher I can tell you that the mere fact that you guide people doesn't mean that they accept your ideas. In fact the object of education is not to get people to accept your ideas but to get them to think for themselves. Now referring now to the text I put to you the passage at the foot ofpage 1 where it sayss "By the end of July of last year the campaign had reached a stage where it had to be suppressed by the Government, or it would impose its own policies on the country." Now, Professor, you recall that there would be three stages of the Defiance Campaign, not so?-- Yes, I recall that. The first stage would be the commencement of the struggle by calling upon certain persons to go into action?-- The second stage envisaged an increase in

20 18059 PROF. MATTHEWS the number of the Volunteer Corps, and the number rf centres of operation?-- And the third stage was the stage of mass action, during which, as far as possible the struggle should broaden out on a countrywide scale and assume a general mass character?-- Where are you reading from now? For the moment I'm putting something to you. I want to know whether you agree or not. Have I accurate ly described to you thethree stages of the Defiance Campaign? Yes, those are the three main stages, yes. Well, Profes sor, assume that the Defiance Campaign had reached the third stage; if the third stage had been implemented, and the defiance of unjust laws occurred on a countrywide scaxe, and had assumed a general mass character - - don't you think that that stage might have affected the maintenance of law and order in the country,, that the stability or the security of the State might have been affected in that third stage? No, I don't think so. All I think is that if that stage had been reached certainly the Government of the country would have taken note of the situation... That we are not discussing at the moment, Professor, is your answer this, that...? It would not have affected the stability of the State. That is my answer. You could envisage a state of affairs which can be described as mass lawlessness and mass defiance of the laws of the country on a countrywide scale - throughout the country - and your suggestion is that such a state of affairs ^ould not impair the stability

21 18041* PROF. MATTHEWS of the State? No; I suggest that it wouldn't to the extent that this campaign, as I see it and as we saw it in the African National Congress, was not a campaign of general lawlessness in the country. It was a campaign directed against only certain laws, and in my submission that would not, even if it had occurred on a wide scale, have affected the stability of the State. Well, if it had occurred on a nationwide scale, Professor, presumably it would have resulted in nationwide arrests?-- What do you imagine would have been the effect upon the moo.d of the people, of such a move by the powers that be? Upon the mood of which people? Of the African people of this country, and more specifically the people engaged in defiance? think what impact would mass arrests have, What do you following upon mass defiance, on the oppressed people? What do you think the likely reaction would be, Professor?-- My submission is that the reaction - - we were assuming in the A.N.C. that throughou'-. the reaction would be a disciplined reaction; so that I don't quite understand what you mean by what the effect would be; the people would have presumably from our point of view remained disciplined. Well, I know we have had evidence about the necessity for discipline? Are you seriously suggesting that if this thing reached the third stage, where defiance be conducted as a mass campaign throughout the country - - are you seriously suggesting that if that breach of the law was followed up by arrests throughout the country on a mass scale, the tranquility of this country would be in no

22 sense disturbed, and the mood of the oppressed people, of the African people, would remain the same - tranquil?-- Look, we have had mass arrests only recently; we've had mass arrests on a far larger scale than took place during the Defiance Campaign. What affect hasthat had on the mood of the people? Professor, in the Defiance Campaign I believe some 6,000 people were arrested?-- Yes, and in the recent campaigns over 30,000 people were arrested. I'm putting to you, Professor, a situation where as a result of deliberate breaches of the law throughout the whole country there?re mass arrests on a scale which hasn't been seen in this country; now I'm putting to you - in that situation, what do you think would be the probable reaction of the masses of the people to such arrests? - You are assuming, of course, that the authorities, the Government, would just do nothing until for example these arrests involved the whole of the population. Make that assumption for the moment? I don't make that assumption. Well, I'm asking you to make that assumption?-- I don't make that assumption; I assume that a responsible government, and I think our Government is responsible, would have acted long before the situation reached that stage. Well, you are assuming now a responsible government? I want to ask you to make two assumptions; first of all, that the arrests are suddenly on a mass scale, and secondly, that the powers that be are not a responsible government but a government which is reckless

23 - which is bent on the spilling of blood, a government which is relentless and will stop at nothing. Now, on those two assumptions, what do you think would be the result? I still maintain that a government would not allow a situation to develop to the extent that you are posing without taking the matter in hand. How would they prevent it? I beg your pardon? How would they take the matter in hand? Well, for one thing I would have thought that they would enter into negotiation with the leaders of such a movement. What possible basis have you got for that belief, Professor? In the light of the history of this country as you see it? What possible basis have you for that belief in the light of the historical background of the struggle as you see it, Professor? I don't quite understand what you mean because I'm talking here about a aituation which hasn't occurred. We are talking about hypothetical things....?-- I don't see why your hypothesis is any sounder than mine. Well, Professor, lot us approach the matter this way. How did you instruct the people as to the probable reaction of the Government? Did you instruct the people, did you warn them that there was the likelihood of negotiation by the Government, or did you quite unambiguously tell the people, "Look, expect nothing but further hardships; expect a hardening of the attitude on the part of the Government'. Now what did the African National Congress tell the people, Professor? Well, naturally we did tell the people that they could expect hardship, but we also had the conviction and the

24 faith that a different situation might arise, as a result of this campaign. Professor, as a leader of the African National Congress, can you point to a single speech or document in which the African National Congress held out to the people that conviction, about which we have heard so much in this case, and before you answer, Professor, why I ask you this is because the contrary view is everywhere expressed?-- The whole basis of our struggle is to influence the Government; that has been the whole basis right through. Different methods have been applied and tried, and this was another - simply one other method by which we hoped we would influence the Government. Naturally we knew that as a result of experience with other methods that we had not had success in the past, and that possibly even with this method we might not immediately succeed, but the very fact that we adopted this method was in the belief that it was so striking a method that it was likely to bring results. Now let us turn to the question. Throughout you held out to the people that this was not a responsible Government but a bloodthirsty and relentless government; is that correct?-- Well, the' Government is still responsible even if it is a relentless government, it nevertheless is still responsible. Professor...?-- What do you mean by not responsible? It is responsible. Professor, the question is a simple one. Did the African National Congress consistently and insistently hammer on one thing, that this Government is bloodthirsty relentless - prepared to stop at nothing, and vicious in

25 its oppression of the liberatory struggle? Yes, I think that such expressions were used; such expressions were used. That was the central theme of your propaganda? It wasn't the central theme; I disagree with it as it "being the central theme. Well, now, that view was often expressed? It was, yes. Did you hold that view?-- Yes, I held that view myself. Well, now, what I am inviting you to do is to point to any expression of official view by any member of the African National Congress calculated to explain to the people, the followers of the African National Congress, that the Government, the reaction of the Government to coercion would be negotiation. a single such expression? Well, Now can you point to I haven't naturally got all the speeches in front of me, but I am quite sure that this has been indicated in African National Congress meetings - that we hope that this method will bring about results. Well, speeches apart, Professor, I assume that you qualified yourself to give evidence in this Court by considering a number of authoritative African National Congress documents? Yes, I have looked at documents. In such documents, have you anywhere encountered this suggestion to the followers of the African National Congress, that the result of coercion x^ould be negotiation?-- I don't see why I should rely on documents in this matter, because most of the propaganda which we did with our people was not on the basis of documents,

26 but of speeches. Now, Professor, in the light of your description of the Government,in the manner that I have indicated, didn't the African National Congress constantly expect that the Government would try to beat down and stifle the Defiance Campaign?-- What do you mean by constantly expect... That you expected nothing else? No, no, that is wrong, that we expected nothing else; we expected favourable results from the campaign...?-- Otherwise we would not have embarked upon it. If the suggestion was that we were embarking upon this campaign merely to call forth the wrath of the we expected results; Government, that would have been stupid. Well, at what stage in this campaign did you expect results, Professor?-- You cannot say in a campaign like that at what stage results would come. You cannot calculate like that. You cannot anticipate... From that must one infer that unless the Government reacted you would have conducted this campaign to its conclusion through all its phases, through its three phases?-- And did you contemplate the possibility Government action at the third stage only? No, of not necessarily. Well, as a possibility? Yes; but as a matter of fact it didn't; Government action came much earlier than that. Well, now, I return to my question. On the assumption that there was no Government action, no police action until the third and final jtage of this campaign,

27 do you agree that there would have been chaos in this country? No, I don't agree. How would you have avoided it?-- I don't agree that the Government, as I have said already, would have allowed a state of chaos to develop. How would they avoid it?-- They would negotiate; that's what we were expecting. Now, Professor, at the time of the Defiance Campaign, I think you said you were not in this country? No, I was not in this country. You know the accused Mandela? I know Mandela, yes. He was one of the leaders in this country of the Congress? And would you think he was in a position to assess the goings on at the time of the Defiance Campaign in this country? Yes, he could give an individual assessment. Have you personally any reason to doubt the soundness of his judgment in such a matter?-- Well, his judgment would be the judgment of a single individual. That's what I would say. And also of an observer on the spot? Yes; also of an observer on the spot, I agree. But not the only observer. Now, coming back to the stage which says "By the end of July of last year the campaign had reached a stage where the campaign had to be suppressed by the Government, or it would impose its own policies on the country", do you agree that the Defiance Campaign was an attempt to impose certain

28 policies on this country?-- It was an attempt certainly to get the Government of this country to change certain laws. To accept certain fundamental policies? To change certain laws. The Defiance Campaign was quite specific - it was directed to certain laws, not against everything. That's not sc. I'm not putting that to you. Do you agree that it was an attempt to impose certain policies on this country? No, I think it was an attempt to get the Government to change certain laws. In accordance with certain policies? Certainly in accordance with our aims. The policies of the African National Congress? Now have you any reason to doubt, any reason at all to doubt that unless this campaign had been suppressed it would have succeeded; that those policies would have been imposed upon this country?-- Do you mean it would have succeeded in getting the laws changed? Yes?-- Yes, that would have been a desirable conclusion of the campaign, if the laws in fact had been changed. It was the conclusion you people sought? Yes, that is what we were looking for, a change in the laws, in specific laws. And I put it to you that at the time when the campaign was suppressed the campaign had already reached a critical stage?-- How do you mean it had reached a critical stage? From whose point of view? From the point of view of the safety of the

29 18041* PROF. MATTHEWS country, that the stability of the country had been affected? Really? Had it? Yes, that's what I'm putting to you, Professor - I've got to put various points to you and you must give me the benefit of your opinion? Well, I'm surprised to hear that, that the stability of the country had already been affected. What situation, Professor, by your lights, should arise In a country before public tranquility and order is in jeopardy? A complete revolution?-- No, not necessarily. Well, what situation less than a revolution do you classify as being dangerous to the stabilit} T of the State? Well, I would say a rebellion would be dangerous to the stability of the State; a rebellion by people, as we had in 1914; that was against the stability of the State. The 1922 strike? To a certain extent, yes. The 1946 strike? I wouldn't have thought the 1946 strike was of those dimensions. If a riot of large dimensions breaks out in a location, Professor, and gives every sign of spreading, d»es that in any way affect the safety of the State? I wouldn't say so. We have trouble for instance in Pondoland now - is it affecting the safety of the State? I would not say so. And a condition where laws are being breached systematically on a large scale, that in your opinion would not affect the safety of the State at all? It depends on the degree to which it has gone. I would say it depends on the degree.

30 (Witness contd-): To give you an example, we've got breaches of the laws of this country on a large scale - if you look at it from the point of view of the laws relating to the supervision and control of Natives - - now... The supervision and control of Natives? The supervision and control of Natives - - thousands of natives just break those laws, but it doesn't affect the stability of the State. Now assume, however, that you have a deliberate and concerted campaign? Throughout the country, in every town of the country? A campaign of deliberate breach of the laws of the country? In your opinion would that not affect the stability of the State? My view is that a responsible Government would not allow that position to arise without doing something about it. In other words to prevent a dangerous situation from arising you put the onus on the Government? Certainly, yes; they are the responsible authority of the country. BEKKER J; What were these specific laws that the Defiance Campaign struck at?-- The Pass Laws, the Stock Limitation provisions of the Native Land and Trust Act - - I cannot remember them all now, I think there are about five. KENNEDY J: Yes, we've had them I think. MR, HOEXTER; Professor, I want to put to you that one of the objects of the Defiance Campaign was

31 that it was a period of mental preparation? A period of? Aperiod of mental preparation...? Mental preparation? Of the people participating in that campaign, to prepare them for subsequent campaigns of a mass type. Would you agree with that? I would say that every campaign has got that effect, of preparing the people for further campaigns, certainly. Not only has it that effect, but it was thus that the Defiance Campaign was planned ; that was one of the objects in mind? Where do you get that from? Have you got that from the Joint Planning Council's Report? Does it say so there? Professor, I'm just putting that to you and I want? As a speculation? No. I'm putting it to you in cross examination; I want you to agree or disagree? Now I put to you that it wa^ one of the objects of the Defiance Campaign, that it was to serve as a period of mental preparation for future mass campaigns? Yes, I think I would say that that is so 0 That's alright. One finds that type of suggestion for example in an article entitled "The true significance of the Defiance Campaign"; it occurs in a bulletin - the Youth league Bulletin in the Transvaal...? I see, yes. And in that article the author considers the implications of the Defiance Campaign, and the concluding paragraph of this article says, "This brings me to my earlier assertion that we are on the verge of a revolution; revolutions are supposed to be violently cataclysmic, but the explosion is always preceded by a phase of mental

32 preparation, and I say the Defiance Campaign is a means to that end, or is it not?" Now, Professor, you would agree, in the light of what you said, that the Defiance Campaign was certainly a phase of mental preparation in the struggle...? For what? You see, you've got phrases there with which I don't agree, and you cannot just tag them on to my reply* I'm not seeking to do so, Professor; leaving the revolutionary...? Cataclysmic and all that sort of thing... But you do agree that it was a period of mental preparation for something? Yes, I would say that; every campaign is... KENNEDY J; For further action? MR. HOEXTER; Further action of what type, Professor? Further action directed against other aspects of... RUMPFF J; Well, I think he said further campaigns.? Yes, further campaigns. MR. HOEXTERt All that is an integral part of the liberatory struggle? All as an integral part, yes 0 Now I want you to turn to this question of the probable reaction of the people. I want to put to you a passage in an article called "This tin of paint cost 11 lives"; this article, Professor, occurs in the bulletin "Isizwe" of October, 1955? You were a reader, I take it, of "Isizwe"? Yes, I did get occasional copies of it. It was an individual effort, you will remember, of one member - a group of members; it was not an A.N.C. publication. I think, Professor, it was an effort by a group of members described as being leaders of the Liberation

33 PROP. MATTHEWS struggle? But they indicated quite clearly that they were not expressing Congress policy. At all events it's clear that it enjoyed official African National Congress....? No, no, no, that I disagree with, most emphatically. It didn't claim to and it 4 didn't. Why should we read that into it? Just let me finish my question, Professor; my question was, that it enjoyed the support of the African National Congress; do you dispute that? What do you mean by the support? You mean that people read it? No. I mean that leaders of the African National Congress urged their members to read it because of the matter contained in it? Well, that is possible, yes. But that doesn't necessarily mean the African National Congress was supporting Well, it. professor, surely if an organisation urges its members to read, to buy and to read, and to help to finance a paper, that is supporting the paper? To a certain extent, yes, but unless the word support there may mean something to you which it doesn't mean to me.. Who was the editor of this paper, "Isizwe"? This particular one? "Isizwe"? I think it was Mat she. Who was Matshe, that's Robert Matshe? Yes A man intimately known to you? Oh, yes, quite well known to me. Now what was his position in the Organisation? He was at one time secretary of the African National Congress in the Cape. When? I think he was secretary in And who were the people who assisted him in the

34 18073' PROF. MATTHEWS production of " Isizwe"? I don't know who assisted him. want to put to you this paragraph about the paint? It considers also the defiance of unjust laws and it says; "The defiance of unjust laws campaign had been gaining momentum for weeks. Thousands of freedom loving patriots had been imprisoned for their Their names are not given anywhere, as far as I can remember. Well, we'll come back to the support which this paper enjoyed at a later stage, Professor. Meanwhile I participation in a glorious undertaking whose impact was being felt by the tyrants of the Nationalist regime." Now, do you agree that the tyrants of the Nationalist Regime in fact felt the impact of this campaign? I don't know; I don't want those words put into my mouth, 'The tyrants of the Nationalist regime' - or anything of that kind. That's a formulation of that writer. Well, pausing there, appear to you to be apt? No, does that description not I would not say so. Is that not an apt description of the ruling classes? I wouldn't say it was an apt description, no. It's not the description I would give to the government. Why not? Is not this description fully representative of African National Congress viewpoint? No, it isn't; that is Matshe's viewpoint, and it is his style of writing, and I don't want us to attribute that to anybody else. If you want to talk about somebody else put his formulation. Then the paragraph goes on; "The fire of the people's wrath swept the country; if the oppressors did not act the wrath of the people would sweep them

35 18074* PROP, MATTHEWS away too"? Is that how you saw it? That's an over statement. Leaving aside its correctness, how do you interpret it? What is the idea the writer is seeking to put across here? Well, what the writer is trying to say there if you want a literal interpretation of his words, is that if the campaign had not been stopped it would have swept away the Government. That's what he seems to say there - that is the literal interpretation. The wrath of the people, the wrath of the disciplined people? So although some people expected, anticipated complete discipline, other writers of the African National Congress seem not to have excluded the possibility of wrath? Well, I don't see that wrath is necessarily inconsistent with discipline. You can have righteous indignation. So righteous that it sweeps away the oppressor? Yes; I think Christ did sweep people out of the Temple at one time - righteous indignation. And what type of sweeping away do you think the author had in mind? I don't know. I think you should call Matshe to give evidence. Now, Matshe at this time, I take it, was in Port Elizabeth? He was in Port Elizabeth, yes. Where the defiance was in progress? And have you any idea how many people defied in Port Elizabeth? No, I don't know the figure at the moment, but it is quite a substantial figure. Could it have been a few thousand? Quite possible. Now, Professor, do you know what happened in Port Elizabeth in October, 1952? In October, 1952 no, I

36 have no firsthand knowledge. I wasn't in the country at the time. Well, I want to put to you a portion which occurred in the Secretariat Report of the 21st Conference of the South African Indian Congress held in Durban in July, 1954? Oh, yes. At page 11 of this document, in the course of the Secretarial Report...? That is of the Indian Congress? Of the Indian Congress, yes; paragraph 37 reads as follows: "The Government allowed the campaign to develop in the early stages and adopted a policy of 'wait and see'. It believed that the campaign would not arouse popular response, as it thought that the masses would remain apathetic. When this was proved otherwise the Minister of Justice declared that he would introduce new legislation to meet the situation. The following are significant reactions on the part of the Government, (a) The Minister of Justice tried to link up the campaign with violence and incited the police to abandon all restraint in its dealings with the public, (b) Volunteers were harshly treated and beaten up in prison, (c) Riots were provoked at New Brighton through police shooting. Subsequently a shooting order was issued to the police by the Minister and it resulted in the loss of innocent lives at Denver, Kimberley and East London", and in the next paragraph, paragraph 38, it says: "The Government fostered the policy of 'divide and rule'. It provoked violence in order to create disorder", and in the same Conference report there is an annexure A.6 which is a statement issued by W.M. Sisulu and Y.A. Cachalia, Joint Secretaries of the National

37 Action Committee of your Congress and the Indian Congress 1 which says "The true causes of the recent disturbances at Port Elizabeth are to be found in the explosive atmosphere in which South Africa has been plunged by the ruthless tyranny of its present rulers and its disregard for human feelings which has characterised their actions and public 5 declarations." Now, do you agree that in 1952, in October 1952, there was an explosive atmosphere in towns like Port / Elizabeth? I don't know, I wasn't here. I'm asking you now, not only about your first hand knowledge but in the light of the reports - - presumably 10 you were kept informed where you were, and on your return to this country you attempted to find out what had happened during your absence? Oh, yes, I did. Now, in the light of your knowledge, however inadequate, Professor - in the light of your knowledge do ^ you think that in October, 1952, there was an explosive atmosphere in this country? I've already indicated that the word 'explosive', as I understand it, would mean that the situation in this country, having regard to the relations between the peoples of this country, does contain 20 within it the seeds of dissension; with that I agree, and I have no reason to believe that it was not so in And those seeds of dissension give rise to feelings of strong frustration? They do, yes. And those feelings of frustration can easily be 2 5 canalised into riots? No, not easily; with that I disagree; not easily. Professor...? Frustration, you know, does give rise to oppression, but oppression arising out of frustration also takes harmless forms.

38 PROP. MATTHEWS Sometimes it takes harmless forms? Yes; sometimes perfectly harmless forms. At other times it results in "blind aggression? Sometimes it does, yes, but not necessarily so; just equate or correlate frustration with violent you don't aggression. Not re cessarily? No. But why I'm putting this to you, Professor, is because this passage - - you can have a look at it if you like - - is a statement issued by these gentlemen in their capacity as Joint Secretaries of the National Action Committee? Now what was that Committee? That was the.. What was its function? For the carrying out of the campaign. The Defiance Campaign? Then it sayss "The true causes of the recent disturbances at Port Elizabeth are to found in the explosive atmosphere in which South Africa has been placed by the ruthless tyranny of the present rules"? Now, these disturbances, Professor, from your knowledge, wherever you gained it - these disturbances were riots; riots in Port Elizabeth, not so? Yes, they were riots, but what are you trying to suggest? What I am trying to suggest is that these authors were linking the riots in Port Elizabeth with theexplosive atmosphere which existed throughout the country? These authors were suggesting that the riots were a manifestation of this explosive atmosphere? I suppose they were, yes, yes, but I don't think the conclusion which apparently you wish to draw....

39 Before we come to conclusions, Profe sor, was that the African National Congress view? That a situation of tension does exist in the country?. That that situation had led in certain places to riots? Occasionally it has, yes. And further that that atmosphere was created by the ruthless tyranny of the present rulers? Yes, that's how it is expressed. And that was the African National Congress view of the situation? It was not necessarily the A.N.C. view of the situation - that formulation. But I think it is not only the A.N.C. view but the view of any competent observer of the situation in South Africa would be that it is full of tension. Now you have in your evidence-in-chief given evidence about the tranquil nature of a segment of the population of this country? Professor, how do you think that a riot starts? A riot? It varies from place to place - from riot to riot. You can't lay down rules for the occurring of a riot. A riot might occur because somebody has been struck down by a car and people come along and there is a riot. You can't lay down any rules for that. Was the A.N.C. view that the policy, that the Government in accordance with its policy, had deliberately provoked violence in order to create disorder in parts of the country? That was not the view of the A.N.C. No, the A.N.C. never expressed a view except to ask for an enquiry as far as I can understand it, into the cause of these riots, and no such enquiry was held. For that reason you are left with a situation in which people speculate as

40 PROP. MATTHEWS as to what might be the causes. Your suggestion is that the African Rational Congress has at no stage described the Government as being provocative and being anxious to precipitate the commission of acts of violence? Individuals have expressed such views, yes. I'm asking you about the African National Congress? The official A.N.C? Yes? I'd like to see that. I'm asking you as a leader of the African National Congress, whether that was the view or not? That was not the view, no. Was it the view of the African National Congress that the riots at New Brighton - - you heard about those Riots I take it? Yes, I did hear about those riots. That those riots were provoked through police shooting? Yes; yes, Now, again, there are people who held that view. I put it to you. as a leader of the African National Congress - was that the view which the African National Congress as an organisation held, and propagated? I don't think so. Professor, I now want to consider a different topic. Throughout this case much insistence - much emphasis has been laid in the course of the Defence case upon the piety of the leaders, the various leaders of the African National Congress...? Their piety? Their piety, yes, their strong religious convictions? In fact you yourself have cited, have mentioned the fact of Christian principles as being a reason why violent revolution has been discarded in this country?

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