1 (I. SHARP) BY MR. FISCHER : I would suggest this, My Lord, that if the witness would take this speech from where he has got now, and if he would read his notes from there, for one speech only, to the end of this speech. BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF s Just give him his notes. BY MR. TRSNGOVE s My Lords, the Crown understands from this that in... BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF J The Defence wants as an example particularly - this or more later, it doesn't matter - the witness to read from his own notes, from where you stopped now. I think you should just assist him in getting his place, and then let him read from there on until the end of that speech. BY MR. FISCHER S It is down to the words "the time to hold meetings like this is past". BY MR. TRENGOVE S Will you start reading from "In "? "In 1952 we decided that nobody will ride a train or a tram. Nobody said he did not know the decision. You are given volunteers, don't lose them by the wayside. The notice has given these volunteers..." No, just complete a sentence before you go on to another one. Read whatever there is? There is a word there and I can't make it out now, My Lord. 1$ appears to be "notes". If you can't make it out after looking at it for some time, just say so? "... these volunteers to you
2 (I. SHARP) The time is coning when decisions will not be made in a meeting like this one, "but in a private meeting. One day you must attack a man unawares he will only realise when he is in hospital. A man do not fight with a "boy. You mustn't only be a volunteer, but you must do some work. The Secretary-General when he was addressing you said seek after unity so that you can answer anyone who says that your leaders are selling you to the Indians, from the speeches made from this platform have you heard anything to that effect. And that we want a government to be elected by the people as a whole not only -1 at -1 by the boers alone. The man you want to join Congress it is your duty to explain to him the rules of Congress. Don't nag at him until he says yes I want to come,,." - and then there is a word I can't read - ".. Congress Bible lis me the Devil was important person in Heaven. It was said that he must look after the people, while doing s he was make use of property not his like the bafa begiya were doing when misleading the people. It is the organisa tion and you know where..." You have the word "misleading '. V/hat is the word after "misleading"? "People". "Misleading people..." and then after that? "Misleading people in the organisation." Then what follows upon that? "And you know where..." - there is another word I can't decipher now, My Lord. And after "the people", what have you got? "The one who says that I must buy unity then put it in his pooket, wo cannot work with him. 'Vhenever you meet a person there is a once trouble between them and place in the..."
3 (I. SHARP) "Trouble between them.." and after that, what is the next word? "And the place.." - I can't read the next word. "Before we get our freedom we must first bring back the man of the bafa bigiya first. It cannot happen if a wife has done something wrong, she must be chased away 5 from home. When people talk about Congress some people think it is only a plaything. People who see freedom they must be prepared - prepare themselves how they are going to govern. The leaiers have seen freedom so when I came they must not say..." 10 After "when", what is the next word? "So when I became they must not say what you going to do. The slaves were told that the day you are..." "The slages.." have you got a word after that? "The slaves of Africa when told that today you 15 are..." - I can't decipher those words, My Lord. "They found themselves confused about the freedom because they did not prepared themselves for it. You have history in this country, you the lords of this country. The road leading to freedom you must become a member of Congress 20 first some men will look at his blood to see if it blood or water. If his blood is water he must stay with the women. from us. We shall be glad if the cowards can leave soon There should be no one without Congress membership cards. The women should come here with their children. 25 Don't say that I will join next year, do it now. Don't listen to people who are misleading you. When I arrive in the Cape I will tell the people - I will tell them that you - I will tell the People..." - here are words that I can't make cut. "When I arrive in the Spa I will 30 tell the people that you are one here".
4 SHARP) BY MR. JUSTICii! BBEKER s Mr. Fischer, I wonder whether thire will "be any objection from the Defence merely to acquaint myself with the extent by which the transcript varies from the notes... BY MR. FISCHER s I am sorry, My Lord, I thought Your Lordships had a transcript. It is precisely because... BY MR. JUSTICE BEKKSR 5 Have you any objection? BY MR. FISCHER s I have no objection My Lord. Particularly here I would ask - I don't know whether my learned friend intended to read the next speech as well, that is a speech of Tambo, I would welcome it if Your Lordships had a transcript. BY MR. JUSTICE BBKKER s It would probably give us a better picture to gauge the extent of this. Could we have a copy, Mr. Trengove? BY MR. TRENGOVIi i My Lord, in fairness to the witness I must say this, that in consulting with this witness to give evidence, in view of the manner in which the evidence is led up to this point, this witness was not asked to take his original notes to prepare himself. BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF ; You have got a transcript of the notes. Has the Defence got a copy of your transcript? BY MR. FISCHER : I believe so, My Lord. BY MR. JUSTICE RUM1FF s Is there one set of transcripts?
5 SHAEP > BY MR. TRENGOVE s Yes, My Lord. BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF : One transcript was copied, there are not two transcripts? 5 BY MR. TRENGOVE 5 Yes, My Lord. BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF s When was that transcript made? BY MR. TRENGOVE : 10 This transcript, My Lord, was made - I speak subject to correction - but I think it was made sometime in... BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF : Was it before the Preparatory Examination? 15 BY MR. TRENGOVE s No, after. Sometime in BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF s Did this witness give evidence on these notes at the Preparatory Examination? 20 BY MR. TRENGOVS 2 Yes, My Lord. BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF s And did he read the notes into the record of the Preparatory Examination? 25 BY MR. TRENGOVE ; In that case he read the notes without a transcript. BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF : All the notes? All the speeches? Did he 30 read everything? BY MR. TRENGOVE : At this meeting. I am not quite sure to which
6 (I ' SHARP) portions - I am not quite sure which portions were read in at the Preparatory Examination. BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF : Then afterwards a copy was made, a copy was typed of the notes. By whom was that typed? BY MR. TRENGOVE s My Lord, it was typed by a member of the Police Force. BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF J And did the witness check that copy? BY MR. TRENGOVE ; The witness then took his notes and compared it to the copy. BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF s Did he make alterations on the transcript? BY MR. TRENGOVE s My Lords, where it was necessary he made alterations on the transcript. BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF ; What he thought necessary by looking at the notes? So that you have got one copy arf the notes as he read them into the Preparatory Examination Record. Have you got copies of this transcript which you are using? BY MR. TRENGOVE : Yes, My Lord. BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF s Could we have some? BY MR. FISCHER s My Lord, I may say that it was because of the tremendous divergence between the Ireparatory version which my learned friend flrew to my attention as the witness was reading, that I interrupted this witness. I may say immediately, My Lord, that there are a large number
7 10122 (I. SHARP) of statements made by this witness which we will have to contradict completely as being statements which could never have been made by speakers, BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPPF : Well, that is a different matter entirely. We 5 are interested at the moment in what is contained in the notes, and we would like a correct copy of the notes. Now could we have the transcript? BY MR. FISCHER : But my Lord, we are not conceding that that is 10 a correct copy of the notes«by MR. JUSTICE RUMPPF % I know. We are really interested in a correct copy, BY MR. TRJNGOV-3 s 15 My Lord, I hand Y ur Lordships typed copies which don't bear the corrections of this witness after they were typed. BY MR. JUSTICE B.JEKER ; It doesn't matter, just let us have copies as SO they were typed. BY MR. FISCHER : For Your Lordships' information I can give your Lordships the age in the Preparatory where this was read in too, page It starts at 1799, onwards. 25 BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF s Where are we on the transcript? BY MR. TRoNGOV.3 My Lord, Your Lordships have just listened to the passage in the middle of page 6, completed in the 30 middle of page 6, before the chairman starts with his remarks.
8 BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF s Apparently in the Preparatory - at the Preparatory Examination the speech of Lollan was omitted. BY MR. FISCHER? It was omitted. Tambo's speech is in, My 5 Lord, and I think it is mentioned at 1803, and I think it starts at BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF s Apparently you have completed Lollan's speech? BY MR. TRENGOVE s 10 Yes, My Lord. Now Detective Sharp,., BY MR. JUSTICE RUMTFF : We would like him to read the whole of Tambo*s 1 speech. BY MR. TRENGOVE? 15 Now, Sharp, would you - next after the chairman made a comment, he introduced Tambo, is that correct? That is correct, My Lord. ""nd you have the note of Tambo's speech? Yes. 20 Now I want you to refer to your notes and to read from your notes what you have put down there. Take your time, and if you aren't able to decipher a word, just say so, don't just skip the word. Make quite sure when you read that you read correctly, and if you have 25 any difficulty about a word, tell the Court? Yes, My Lord. "My people and the leadership, I did not hear when Dr. was addressing. He said we are going to Malan. Say you must - we are going or not... " If you go back to a sentence because you want 30 to make it quite clear, just say so. Will you start off again? t
9 (I. SHARP) (G. 14) BY MR, JUSTICE RUMPFF s I think he shouldn't read out a sentence aloud and then think about it and then go back. I think he should take his time. When you get a sentence, Sergeant, just read it quietly, don't read it aloud, and see if you 5 can get it. If you have made up your mind what you think you see there, then you read it. WITNESS CONTINUES READING : ",., say we are going or not. Are you going. Malan says you must go. Some others say this then with 10 their mouths that they don*t go, and yet they are preferred to go # " Lord, There is something I can't decipher there, My "When a dog is chased by other dogs as soon as it gets at its place it becomes a different dog. Even a youngster when he is chased by other youngsters he runs 15 towards home when he gets near and then ha fights* Whan we say,,,'' BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF : Have you got the word "then* there? Yes, I have got the word "then", My Lord, 20 Just read that sentence again? - "When he gets near and he then fights. #,. M Wait a minute. "When he get near.*."? "Home". Why didn't you read that just now?. I 25 think I should have said "Towards home, when he gets near and then he fights". You say, "When he gets near and then he fight"? Yes. I shouldn't have mentioned "home" here. I have got the word "home" abovethe word "hear". 30 Just give me that note let me see that sentence,. This one sentence, as I see it, "Even a youngster
10 when he is chased by other youngsters towards home when he gets near then fight". BY MR. FISCHER : Nov/ Your Lordship will realise that is entirely different from what purports to be a checked transcript. 5 It is because of those differences that we have... BY MR. JUSTICE KENNEDY : Well, shouldn't the Court adjourn and shouldn* the witness check the notes properly with the transcript? BY MR. FISCHER : 10 No, My Lord, with the greatest respect, the witness can only read from the notes once this state of affairs has been revealed, he can only refresh his memory from what is written there. And we will maintain, My Lord, that these transcripts have simply been made up by 15 the witness. He has made them more or less grammatical, and indeed when it comes to his reports, My Lord, they are flowing reports which in our submission could bear no relation to the original note whatsoever. BY MR. JUSTICE KENNEDY s io It is quite clear the notes - he can't possibly refresh his memory from the transcript. BY MR. FISCHER : That is why, My Lord, our submission is that it would indeed be wrong for him to look at the transcript 25 at all at this stage. BY MR. JUSTICE BEEKER : Shouldn't we go back to the other speeches? BY MR. FISCHER ; I must say, My Lord, until I saw the notes 30 yesterday afternoon and I didn't have time to look at them in Court, I didn't realise that there was this divergence.
11 BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF t Well, the only way in which to save time, instead of going through this laboriously, would be for the witness to go and sit at a table with his own notes, not look at the amendments in pencil, and rewrite these 5 notes as he thinks they are, if that is permissible. BY MR. FISCHER : My Lord, at the moment I would submit that if - let me put it this way... BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF : 10 I dn't know hownmany there are of these that we have got to go through... BY MR. TRENGOVE : My Lords, could I make a suggestion. We could lead the evidence on identifications, which refers to 15 about twenty meetings. I will ask Your Lordships to allow us to lead the evidence, that part of his evidenoe. The Crown case can in the meanwhile go on, and he can go through his notes and prepare himself to read from his notes. ' 20 BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF s If he then reads from his notes, we would like to be in a position to check what he reads, and the Defence would like to do it. Couldn't you make photostatic copies? 25 BY MR. TRENGOVE 1 My Lord, that could be investigated. BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF * Well, you can have them made. I don't know how legible they would be, they loose some of their 30 clarity I know, but in any event would - one would be able to follow. If you propose to do that, if you want to let him stand down, and go over his notes again
12 without considering the pencil marks, and you intend then to lead him on the notes, then I suggest you should do so only after you have given the Court and the Defence photostatic copies. BY MR. TRSNGOVE s My Lords, I believe that there was an attempt to make photostatic copies of the notes, but that failed, My Lords. Apparently the notes are not in a condition to be photostated. BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF 5 Why not? BY MR. TRENGOVE : My Lord, for some technical, reason, I don't know what the reason is. But in any event, My Lords, the Crown realises the difficulty that would arise if he reads from his notes, and before leading him on that we would take steps, My Lord, to remedy that - to meet that difficulty. BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF ; You see, I just quoted you this one sentence. I don't think that sentence, as I see it, agrees either with the Preparatory Record or the so-called checked copies. By MR. TRSNGOVE s My Lord, it would depend of course on the extent of the discrepancies. BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF s Yes, but once there is this difficulty, then one will have to be very careful. BY MR. JUSTICE BSKKBR : What is the position with the other meetings we have had so far?
13 BY MR. TRENGOVE! My Lords, in some of thoe«meetings reports were also handed in... BY MR. JUSTICE BEKKER ; Would this witness be able, if we go back to 5 the first meeting he testified on, and looking at his original notes, would he be able to give exactly the same evidence that he did yesterday on the transcripts? BY MR, TRENGOVE : My Lords, in the light of the investigations - 10 in the light of the difficulty that has now arisen, I wouldn't be able to answer that question. BY MR. JUSTICE BEKKER s Shouldn't we go back? BY MR. TRENGOVE : 15 In the light of this we would have to go back, to satisfy Your Lordships that the evidence that he has given from the transcript is substantiated by his tootes. BY MR. JUSTICE BEKKER : That he is able to refresh his memory from his 20 original notes to tell the Court what happened, because if he can't from his original notes, he is simply in the position where he can't say what happened. BY MR. TRENGOVE : That is correct, My Lord. Our attitude in 25 this respect is that on the question of refreshing his notes, to a very great extent the Crowh needn'tshow that what the witness says are necessarily the ipsissimae verbae of the speaker. BY MR. JUSTICE BEKKER : 30 Leaving that aside, if the witness has before him these notes and to him it makes no sense a all... BY MR. TRENGOVE ; Then of course he can't give any evidence on them.
14 10129 BY MR. JUSTICE BEKKER : Of if he can't make out his own recording,... BY MR. TRENGOVE : Then he can't use them to refresh his memory. BY MR.INJUSTICE BEKKER : Well, he can't, but it doesn't refresh his memory. BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF : The only thing youcan do is you can lead him on the notes and you can give us copies. BY MR. FISCHER : My Lords, I must say this that one of the reasons why I interrupted this morning to ask the witness to read from the notes was that I realised after my learned junior had spent several hours last night trying to decipher the notes, that the only method of crossexamining would be to hand the notes to the witness, on meetings already testified to, and just get him to repeat them. Now My Lord, I would say this, I do suggest that this witness should not look at any transcript or Preparatory Examination Record, One has the position where he has already made two different renderings, andthe witness should not go off in order to try and invent a rendering. I suggest, My Lord, that the proper procedure would be to have these photostatted and for the witness then to come back into the box, without having looked at them, and give how to the extent his memory can be refreshed. BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF ; Yes, I think that is the proper thing to do. BY MR. TRENGOVE s As Your Lordship appreciates in the light of what has happened so far in respect of notes, this witness
15 was given his notes and he was given a typed transcript. He was asked to satisfy himself, only he can do it, that they agree. He did not prepare his evidence on the "basis that he was going to read from his original notes. The Crown now undertakes to make available to him only 5 his original notes, plus the original reports written by him, and tell the witness to prepare him on those notes. BY MR. JUS TIC. J RUMPFF s Well, the reports you had better leave out for the time being. 10 BY MR. TKSNGOVS s made by him... BY ME. JUS TIC J BEKKER 2 «1 vaawmw^^v^wmmm* My Lords, the reports ari also original reports You can see the difficulty sticking out a mile, 15 If in regard to these original notes he experiences difficulty in refreshing his memory, how can we be satisfied - this may be subject to debate - how can we be satisfied that if he had had his original notes on which he based his reports, that he would have been able to tell 20 us what is presently contained in his report. BY MR. TRENGOVE s % Lords, subject to argument, the Crown's submission would be that if hebwas satisfied at the time when he made his report that it was a correct report of 25 what had transpired... BY MR. JUSTICE RUMIFF s BY MR. TRENGOVE s Is the report typed? BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF s * No, it is in manuscript. 30 Then if you want to argue at a latter stage on
16 the report, I suggest that you do not make him look at the reports now, neither at the notes. What you do is you let this evidence stand down on this part of the case, and you try and get photostatic copies made of the reports and of the notes, and then if you want to, call 5 him here and give him the notes with-ut showing It to him beforehand and give us copies. And we want copies of the meetings - the evidence he has given so far. I don't know whether the - at the moment we would require copies of the notes in regard to which the names only have been 10 given. I don't think so. We will see from the others how the names are recorded. BY MR. FISCHER ; That is so, My Lord, we have no objection to the witness continuing' with that* 15 BY MR. TRENGOVE : My Lords, I turn to a meeting of the 23rd May, Sharp, I hand to you a document marked G, 755, a manuscript document, together with yiur pocket book, G. 1156, page 53. G. 755 is a manuscript document, 20 a list of names, My Lord. BY MR. FISCHER ; My Lord, might I just ask, before the witness looks at that, whether that is the original document written by him. I don't want a transcript placed before 25 him. BY MR. TRENGOVE s My Lords, I won't place any transcripts to this witness. Now Sharp, the notes that you have before you, refers to a meeting on the 23rd May, 1954, 30 is that correct? Correct, My Lord. What kind of meeting was it and where was it
17 and wh^re was it held? It was held at the Trades Hall, a Youth League Conference. The Youth League of what organisation? I didn't put it down there, but it must be the A.N.C. The African National Congress Youth League, My Lord. '//hat is the first name that you have got there? Refer to your pocket book, please? San Masimola, The second name? The third name? Joseph Molife. Joseph Matlou - Johannes Matlou. The fourth name? - Leslie Masina. The fifth name? The eleventh name? The twelfth name? The fourteenth name? The fifteenth name? S. W. Ngwendu. 0. Tambo. Paul Joseph. Philemon Nokwe. Henry Makgothi. The seventeenth name? The nineteenth name? The twentieth name? Walter Sisulu. Andries Chamile. Obed Motsabi. The twenty-fourth name? Lilian Ngoyi. The twenty-sixth name? J. Shope it should have been Marks Shope, William Shope. Is that the Shope that you kdw as William Shope? Yes. The twenty-ninth name? The thirty-first name? The thirty-fourth name? Simon Tyiki. Phillip Vundhla. Ihineas Nene. The thirty-seventh name? - I have got Solomon Hlapane, but it should be Bartholomew Hlapane. Have you got any name after the name of Solomon Hlapane? No, My Lord. BY MR. FISCHER s My Lords, I am sorry, I should have asked your
18 Lordships to have a transcript of the report before Your Lordships, because therj is a considerable variation between the notebook and the report. BY MR. JUSTICE BEKKER : In numbering or in names? 5 BY MR. FISCHER : In the full name either inserted, or just an initial, or a name left out - I mean a Christian name left out, and the entire name left out. Terhaps I had better leavo that for cross-examination. 10 BY MR. TRENGOVE s Do you know the - you referred to a J. Molife, Is that correct? Correct, My Lord. ^0 you know that person? I do. Accused, My Lord. What Molife is that? He is one of the 15 You referred to a Nokwe. Do you know him? I do, My Lord. What Nokwe is that? He is one of the Accused^ My Lord. 20 xind you referred to Lilian Ngoyi. Do you know that person? I do, My Lord. Who is that? She is one of the Accused. And the person Thineas Nene? He is also one of the Accused. 25 Now would you step down from the witness box and identify these people. J...Molife? (WITNESS IDENTIFIES ACCUSED NO. 10). Nokwe? (Accused No. 16). L. Ngryi? (Accused No. 14). 30 None? (Accused No. 13). Yesterday you were asked to identify Molife, and
19 10134 you said he was not in Court. identified this morning? (G. 755)(G. 843) (IHSHAKF) Is he the person you He is the person I identified this morhing. The Masina that you referred to in your list, what Masina is that? He is the person I identified 5 yesterday, My Lord. And the Sisulu you referred to? He is also the person I identified yesterday. The next meeting, My Lords, is a meeting of the 25th July, It is a meeting of the Congress of 10 the People, Trades Hall, in respect of which witness Coetzee has already given evidence. The reference to Coetzee^s evidence is G I hand to you a document G, 843* Can you identify that document? Yes, My Lord. 15 "hat is it? An Agenda of the Transvaal Irovincial Committee of the Congress of the People. On what day? On the 2 5th July, 'There did you get that document? Did you make a note on it in your own handwriting? In my own hand- 20 writing, My Lords. I received it from Faried Adams at the Trades Hall, on the same day, the 25th July, Were you present at that Conference? I was present, My Lord. And you say you got that document from a 25 person named Faried Adams? Correct, And that is an Agenda of a meeting? That is correct, My Lord. Is that the Agenda of the meeting that you attended? Yes, My Lord. Nov/ can you refresh your memory from that 30 Agenda and will you tell the Court if you can-remember
20 (I. SHARP) who the chairman at that meeting was? Chairman of the first session was Mr. E. P. Moretsele. Now can you also tell the Court... BY ME. FISCHER s My Lord, with respect, I should have objected 5 earlier. Our submission is that the witness could refresh his memory from something he has recorded himself, but this is hearsay evidence, what appeared on some typed or roneod sheet here. BY MR. JUSTICE BEKKER s 10 It may net be, depending on a certain foundation being laid. BY MR. FISCHER s My Lord, all that the witness can say is that this document says so-and-so, at this stage. 15 BY MR. TRENGOVE 1 Did you actually attend that meeting? I did, My Lord. Were you present when people spoke? I was present. 20 Were you present when somebody took the chair as chairman at that meeting? I was present, My Lord. And did you at the time compare what happened there with the agenda? I did, My Lord. BY MR. FISCHER ; 25 BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF 2 My Lord, My learned friend mustn't lead him. p* It depends on the next question. You can't lead him on the next question. BY MR. FISCHER : 30 My Lord... BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF : That is all Mr. Fischer is trying to stop you
21 10136 from doing. He says - the -witness says he compared the proceedings with the agenda. BY MR. JUSTICE BEKKER : What did you find? BY MR. TRENGOVE : 5 At the time, can you tell the Court, comparing it with the proceedings, as far as the chairmanship of the meeting was concerned, do you remember whether or not - what did you find as far as the agenda is concerned, comparing it with what actually happened as far as the 10 position of the chairman is concerned. Do you follow the question? I do, My Lord. You had an agenda, you saw what happened? Yes. Can you tell the Court whether at the time 15 you were satisfied or were not satisfied as to the correctness of the agenda as far as it related to what was happening at the meeting? It is correct, My Lord. That - What actually happened at this Conference is stated on the agenda. 20 As far as what is concerned? As far as the person appearing on the agenda, the chairman and the other names that appear in this document. I am only asking you who the chairman was. Can you remember? I do, My Lord. 25 Or can't you refresh your memory from the agenda? BY MR. JUSTICE RUMTFF : Well, that is a different thing. The first point is whether the proceedings were according to the 30 agenda.
22 BY MR. TRENGOVE : I won't press that question any further. You got the agenda at that meeting, is that correct? Correct, My Lords. And you got it from F. Adams? Yes, My Lord. 5 My Lords, the agenda says that the chairman at this meeting was E.P. Moretsele. It also says that the official opening was^hy'tjr. ff. Conco, the treasurergeneral of the A.N.C., and it also says that the Call to the Congress of the People would be read by Dr. G. Routh, 10 and that somebody would talk on what is the Congress of the People, J. Slovo; what it will achieve, Duma Nnkwe? C 11 for Volunteers by A.M. Kathrada. Ttet is the first session. You say that was handed to you at this Conference? That is correct, My Lord. 15 I hand to you a document G* 841. Can you identify that document? What is that? Yes, My Lord. A list of the people who attended the meeting. Is the list made in your handwriting? 20 Correct, My Lord. And was it made at the meeting? It was made at the meeting - not this report. I made a note on a piece of paper. You made notes on a piece of paper ofnpeople 25 who attended the meeting, is that correct? That is correct, My Lord. And then subsequently, how did that document G. 841, how did that come into being? I then copied the names from the piece of paper and made the Inst nn 30 this document now before me. And the names that you had on the piece of
23 (IL SHARP) paper, did you compare them with the names that you wrote on this document? Yes, My Lord. Can you tell the Court whether or not this document correctly sets forth the names that you had on the other piece of paper? It correctly sets forth 5 the names of the - the names that appeared on the piece of paper I had, My Lords. What happened to the piece of paper? The piece of paper, My Lord, I think they must have destroyed - I must have destroyed after I drew up the report. 10 When did you draw up this list? I drew up this list on the 26th July, That is the day after? Yes, My Lord. And at the time when you drew this list, were the events at this meeting still fresh in your memory? 15 That is correct, My Lord. Can you tell the Court whether or not you were satisfied that that list was correct? I was quite satisfied that the list was correct. In regard to the particulars which it contains? 20 Yes, For what purpose did you make this list? I made this list My Lord, to show the people who attended this Conference, And what did you do with that list? I 25 submitted the list to my superiors on the next day. In the course of your duties? Yes, My Lord. And the meeting that you attended, did you attend as a delegate or in what capacity*? I attended as a member 0:':' the lolice Force, My Lord. 30 And for the purpose - in connection with your duties to see who was there and to report on that? That
24 (I. SHARP) is correct, My Lord. BY MR. FISCHER : My Lord, I know that we did say that we would not take the point in regard to attendances. But the very last list that was referred to by this witness was referred 5 to - he first of all was to read from his report and then refer to his notebook. And I then states that I regretted that Your Lordships didn't have a copy of the report before Your Lordships. Now in that very one, he added a name in the report which was not in the notebook. In view 10 of that, My Lord, I must ask my learned ffiend not to proceed with this report. It opens up the whole question of a preliminary cross-examination on reports, on which there is a great deal of material. BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF : 15 I thought we had arrived at some sort of agreement that this matter would also stand over. BYMR. TREN GOVE! My Lord, I didn't appreciate that that referred the question of people present at meetings only. I thought 20 it referred only to the cases... BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF ; In any event, the position is now that the Defence says that before cross-examining the witness on this particular item, it wishes to go into the matter of 25 the reports more fully, to see whether it should do so and to what extent and so on and so forth, because of V the information given Mr. Fischer about that which happened just now. BY MR. TRENGOVE : 30 My Lords, could I then clear up the other matter before we proceed? I can get this witness to indicate
25 (I.- SHARP) to what extent there is a difference between his report and the notes. BY MR. JUSTICE RUMIFF : Let us put it this way. Have you got evidence of meetings still to come in respect of which there are notes? The original notes? BY MR. TRENGOVE : Yes, My Lord. BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF ; Couldn't you go on with those? BY MR. TRENGOVE ; Yes, I could go on with those. BY MR. JUSTICE RUMIFF : And leave over the question of reports in to to whether for the purposes of the contents of the reports, the alleged contents of the speeches or the alleged names. You see, Mr. Fischer says he wants to qnquire into other reports plus notes, he wants to compare whether there are other notes and reports which differ, and he would be entitled to do that. So if you could just go on for the time being, and go to meetings or occasions which you have in respect of which there are original notes. BY MR. TRENGOVE : Yes, My Lords, I could do that. BY MR. JUSTICE KENNEDY ; Will he be able to decipher the notes to which he is referred? Because if he is not going to, I think we are wasting unnecessary time. BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF : I am referring to notes in respect of meetings that contain names to be read out to the Court.
26 10141 (I. SHART) BY MR. TRENGOVE There is no difficulty, My Lord, as far as names are concerned and the identification of names BY MR. JUSTICE RUMIFF That depends on what we think 5 BY MR. TRENGOVE % No, My lord, if I may say so, I can give the Court the assurance that the witness does not experience the same difficulty in writing down the name as he does in taking down the speech 10 BY MR. JUSTICJ RUMIFF s Well, if you have meetings in connection with which there are not^s concerning the names, deal with those now. BY MR. TRENGOVE 15 My Lord, would it "bo possible for Your Lordships to grant a postponement of about quarter of an hour just to sort out these meetings. BY MR. JUSTICE RUMIFF 2 Yes, certainly. I take it Mr. Fischer has no 20 objections. COURT ADJOURNS
27 (I. SHARP) COURT RESUMES ISAaC SHARP, under former oath5 EXAMINATION BY MR. TRENGOVE CONTINUED : I refer to a meeting of the 11th Sp&ember Sharp, I hand you a document marked G Is Locument in your handwriting? My writing, My Lord. South African Society for leace and Frienc&iip with the Soviet Union. x c what does it refer? It refers to the A meeting held on what date? Held on the 11th September, 1955, at the Trades Hall, Johannesburg. This document, are those notes that you made at the meeting? Yes, My Lord. Can you tell the Court from your notes there who wore present at the meeting. Did you make a note of the people present? Correct } My Lord. ^he first name that you have ther^? The first name is the Chairman, D. C. Thompson. Yes? The second speaker is H.M. Moosa, Dr. Moosa. Yes? - a. Aft-r him L. Masina spoke? Yes. That other note haveyou got there? Hymie Barsel L. Masina spoke according to your note, is that correct? Havw you also got a note of the people present? Yes Of the people present? Now the first note thereis whose name? Yes? Dr. R. J. Press, Leon Levy.
28 (I. SHARP) Have you got a name- there, No. 8? Faried Adams. No. 10? No. 12? Cleophas Sibande. Frank Madiba. No. 13^ Simon Tyiki. 5 No. 17? No, 19? No. 22? No. 23? Lawrence Nkosi. Nimrod Sejake. Aaron Mahlangu. Moosa Moolla. got Dr. H. M. Moosa. What name have you got under No, 1?. I have 10 No, you have been referring there to a lot of numbers, people who were present? Yes. The first name marked No, 1 under people present? Hymie Barsel. 15 And the third name under people present? Dr. R. 3. Pruss. Immediately before Hymie -Barsel, have you got a note thc>re, dealing with the speakers, something that happened at the meeting? Yes, I havu the speakers 20 there, No. 1 and No. 2. You mentioned - just refer to your notes - you mentioned D. C. Thompson as chairman? Then you have got Dr. H. M. Moosa? Correct. Yes. Then you have got L. Masina? Yes. 25 Immediately after L. Masina, have you got a note there? "Reverend Thompson left at p.m." And then? Then "L. Masina presides". And then you have this list of people present? That is correct, My Lord. 30 You have mentioned amongst the people present, the name of Faried Adams. If you sue him in Court, would you
29 10144 (I. SHART) be able to identify him? Yes. You also mentioned among the people present, the name of L. Levy. If you see him, would you be able to identify him? Yes. Would you please identify them? First Faried Adams? (WITNESS IDENTIFIES ACCUSED NO. 1) L. Levy? (ACCUSED NO. 4) That concludes the evidence on this meeting, My Lords. The next meeting is a meeting of the 18th September, 1955» which was dealt with by Detective Sergeant Coetzee, Exhibit No. 852, 853* I hand to you a document marked G Are those notes in your own handwriting? That is corr^kit, My Lord. To what do they refer? They refer to the C.O.I., Trades Hall, 18th September, 1955, at 9 a.m. Is that a - did you attend that meeting? I did, My Lord. And did you make notes of the people that were present at that meeting? Correct. Are those the notes that you made at the meeting of the people present? Correct, My Lord. I want you to refer to your notes, and to just follow the question and give the following information if it is contained in your notes. the first name you have got? The second name? Among the people present, S. Lollan. A. Hutchinson, No. 3? No. 4? No. 5? No. 9? No. 10? No. 12? N. Sejake. H. Joseph. R. E. Press. L. Nkosi. L. Levy. J. Nkadimeng.
30 (I. SHARP) No. 14? No. 15? No. 16? No. 19? James Hade"be. P. Nene. Robert Resha. Virginia Ngomo, No. 23? P. Adams. 5 No, I said the 23rd name? I am sorry, My Lord, Dr. H. M. Moosa. No. 2 5? No. 26? A. Chamile. S. Malupe. No. 27? B. Seitchiro. 10 po. 32? S, Tyiki. No. 34? W. M. Ngwendu. After the thirty-ninth name, y9u have got a note there? Correct. What is your note there? "11,15 a.m. 15 commenced. Chairman S. Lollan. Interpreter J. Hadebe". What does that refer to? That Lollan took ever the chair and J. Hadebe interpreted. What is the time there? a.m. "11.15 commenced", what does that mean? 20 That mpans the second session of the Conference commenced, My Lord. Why do you say the second session? No, My Lord, I am making amistake there, it is when the conference actually commenced. 25 And you say the chairman was Lollan? Yes, that is correct. Then you have a name there, No. 40? Yes. What name is that? Moosa Moolla. When you have name No. 40, what does that mean? 30 Who was he? It was a person present at the meeting. Then you have a name, 41. Is that correct?
31 (I. SHARP) That is correct, My Lord. After the name 41, you have a further note. Is that so? Yes, My Lord. ^hat is that note? A. Hutchinson a.m. Interpreted by J. Hadebe. 5 What does that note refer to? It means that Hutchinson was one of the speakers, My Lord. Then you continue with No, 42. Tell me, who have you got at No. 48? Marks Shope. No. 50? Theophilus Mmusi. 10 No, 51? I^Masina. Then you have a further note there relating to - you have a note after 51, correct? Correct, My Lord. What name have you got there? I have "A speaker from Newclare, known to me Now after that you have got another note and another name? I havo got the name after that of Virginia Ngomo. You have got a noti next to her name? That is correct. 20 Yds. < v hat is that note? A note that she spoke? Then you have a name number 52? Yes. Who was No. 53? Obed Motsabi. Who is N-. 56? I'atrick Molaoa. 25 No. 57? No. 59? L. Ngoyi. HT~G? Makgothi. After No. 61 you have a note again? That is correct. What is your note there? "After adjourn- 30 ment p.m." After the adjournment you have got a note?
32 (i. SHARP) L. Ngoyi, first speaker. Yes. The first speaker after the adjournment? Then No. 62? Correct. After No. 62 you have got a further note? 5 Correct. What is that? "Second speaker, L. Levy". And after him you have got a note of the name No, 63, is that so? Correct. After that you have got a further note of 10 another speaker? Correct. Who was that? L. Masina. After that, have you got a further note of a speaker? I have the fifth speaker here as H.G. Makgothi. Have you then got any ether speaker there 15 before your note concludes? No» My Lord*. And then you have a final name, No. 64? That is correct. Nov/ having looked at your notes and refreshing your memory, do you remember that you attended this 20 meeting? I remember. Do you remember if you attended it with any other member of the Security Branch? It is not in my notes, My Lord, but I am under the impression that it was Sergeant Coetzee or Schoeman. 25 You are not sure? I am not sure. Now whichever it is, did you assist them in any way at that meeting? Or can't you remember? I d:n't remember. You mentioned the name of a person present 30 there, No. 3 on ycur list, as N. Sejake, Do you know what his name is? Yes, My Lord. Nimrod Sejake.
33 (I. SHARP) Do you know whether according to your knowledge whether or not there was any other Nimrod Sejake at that meeting? Not to my knowledge. Do you know this man Nimrod Sejake? I do. In what organisation is he active? In the 5 A.N.C. Can you tell the Court whether to your knowledge whether or not there is any other Nimrod Sejake active in the A.N.C.? As far as I know, My Lord, he is the only one Nimrod Sejake acting in the A.N.C. 10 That concludes the evidence on this meeting. You have mentioned among the people present the name of S. Lollan and Moosa Moolla and Molaoa. Do you know these three people? I dol My Lord. If you see thjm in Court would you be able to 15 identify them? Yes. Would you identify S. Lollan? (ACCUSED NO. 5) Moosa Moolla? (Accused No, 11) 1". Molaoa? (Accused No. 9) 20 The next meeting is a meeting of the 6th November, This meeting has already been dealt with by Mr. Coetzee, and the relative document is G. 720 and 721. I hand you a document marked G Can you identify that document? I do, My Lord. 25 What does that refer to? Is it in your handwriting? It is in my handwriting. What does it refer to? It refers to the Thirty-Eighth Anniversary of the Soviet Union. That is a meeting you attended? Yes, My 30 Lord. On what date? On the 6th November, 1955.
34 (I- SHARP) You made a note there of who the speakers at the meeting were. These notes you made at the meeting? Correct, My Lord. at this meeting was? Could you xell the meeting who the chairman The chairman was D. C. Thompson, 5 Apart from the chairman, who were the speakers at the meeting? your notes? Will you look at the bottom of page 1 of Piet Beyleveld, Will you turn to page 8 of your notes. Have you got a note there that certain messages were read? Yes. You have a note of the announcement of the organisations from whioh the messages came? That is correct. Now after the messages were read, have you got 15 a note, on page 8, of the speaker who spoke after the messages were read? A. Patel. Look at page 10, have you got a further note of a speaker after A, E. Patel? H, G. Makgothi, What Makgothi is that? The Makgothi who 20 was an Accused at the Preparatory Examination. Do you know him? I know him. You also have a list of the people who were present at this meeting at the end of your notes? Yes. Apart from the people who spoke whose names 25 you have also got there, what is - hose name have you got down as No. 9? No. 16? No. 19? Hymie Barsel. Dr. H. M. Moosa. A. Hutchinson. No. 20? R. E. Press. 30 No. 22? P. Adams. What name have you under No. 7? M. Moolla.
35 (I. SHARF) Yes, My Lord. Is that the one you have just identified? *hat My Lords, concludes the evidence on this meeting. The next is a meeting of the 22nd January, I hand you a document marked G. 733 What is that A Peace Council Meeting, 37 West Street, 22nd January, 1955, 10 a.m. I also hand t ; you a document G Can you identify that document? Yes, My Lord. Where did you get the document? I got this document from an unknown Indian(?). Where? It is not stated here. Can you remember? I can't remember. I just want to hand to you a further document, which is a report written by you. Is that a report prepared by you? Correct. Does it or does it not relate to this meeting? It relates to this meeting. And when did you make the report? I made the report on the 22nd January - I think there is a mistake in the year. Just tell me, on what date did you make that report? 22nd January, This report you say you prepared on the 22nd January, Will you have a look at the date you have at the bottom of your report. When did you prepare that report? On the 23rd January, And to what does it relate? To a meeting of the Peace Council. On what date? I have in this report, 22nd January, Is that correct? That is correct.
36 (I. SHARP) This document that you got from the Indian, would you have a lock at that again, G. 734? On what date did you get it from the Indian? Did you mark it on the back? I have it on the 22nd January, 1956, Have a look at the document, and can you tell the Court whether or not as a result of receiving that document you attended any meeting? Did you act on the information contained in that document or didn't you?. On the strength of this document I attended this meeting. When did you receive that document? I received this document on the 22nd January, 1956, Have a look again at the note that you made at this Peace Council meeting* BY MR. JUSTICJ RUMPFF ; "'hat time was this Peace Council meeting? - I have got here in my nota that it started at 10 a*ia, BY MR. TKBNG0V2S J Have a look at this note now at this meeting and the date on the note. What is the date? On the 22nd January, The year 1955, do you remember whether or not it is correct? On the strength of this document it is not correct. What should it be? It should have been Did you make a note of the people who were attending this Peace Council meeting? I did, My Lord. Have you got - what is the first name you havs got there? No. 6? No. 7? No. 8? Moosa Moolla. Leon Levy. Faried Ad;ims. Lionel Morrison.
37 (I. SHAEF) No. 9? No. 10? No. 12? No. 13? Lawrence Nkosi. Philemon Mathole. Theophilus Mmusi. Stanley Lollan. No. 15? Helen Joseph. 5 Now the first name you gave was Mnosa Mcolla. Your note says that it is Moosa Mahomed Moolla. Is that correct? Yes. Will you please, if ycu give a name, just give the name according to your note. What is the first name }.0 you have got? Mr. Moosa Mahomed Mcolla, Is that the person you identified this morning as Moosa Mool&a? Correct. Your sixth name was Leon Levy? Correct. The seventh name? Faried Ahmed Adams. 15 Is that the Faried Adams that you identified this morning? Correct. Now will you have a look at the back of the note you made. Have you got a date there? Yes, What date have you got there? 22nd^January, The P. Mathole that you identified, do you know him? I do. At least, the P. Mathole that you mentioned. If you see him in Court would you be able to identify him? 25 Yes, My Lord. Would you step down from the witness box and do so? (WITNESS IDENTIFIES ACCUSED NO. 8) BY MR. JUSTICE RUMIFF ; This date at the back of your note, when was 30 that inserted on the note? My Lord, according to the ink it was inserted the same day.
38 (I. SHARP) BY MR. TRENGOViii : The whole note is in ink, is that correct? Yes. On the first page your note ends at No. 15, the person present No, 15? Correct. 5 And then you continue with 16, 17 and 18 on the back of the note? Yes. " nd on the top of the back of the note, what have you got there? I have got "Peace Council Meeting, 37 West Street, ". 10 And that whole note, does it refer to the sane meeting? Yes, My Lord. The next meeting, My Lords, is a meeting of the 5th February, 1956.,. Sharp, I hand to you a document marked G. 494, You identify that document? I do, My Lord. 15 Is it in your handwriting? To what does it relate? It is, My Lord. It relates to the meeting of the South African Congress of Trade Unions on the 5th February, 'There? At the Trades Hall, Johannesburg, 20 Did you attend that meeting? I did, My Lord. Did you make a note of the people who were present at that meeting? I did. ^nd is that your note? Yes. Now what is the first name you have got on 25 this list? Marks W. Shope. No. 5? No. 6? No. 8? Leon Levy. Ninrod Sojake. Laurence Nkosi. No. 9? Cleophas Sibande. 30 Go on from 10 to 16 and read the names? Mary Rantha, Sidney Shall, xiet Beyleveld, Robert Rehha,
39 (I. SHARP) Helen Joseph., Dr. H. M. Moosa, Ahmed Sbrahim Patel. No. 18? No.20? No. 24? John Nkadimeng. Stanley Lollan. Lionel Morrison. No. 25? Faried Ahmed Adams. 5 No. 2 6? Leslie Masina. Now I want to hand to you another document. You identify that? I do, My Lord. Where did you get it? I bought - I got this from Nimrod Sejake, South African Congress of Trade Unions, 10 meeting, Trades Hall, on the 5th February, You bought this document from Sejake at this meeting? Yes, Can you remember whether you were the only one - what was Sejake doing with this document? Did he have 15 other documents of this description or not? I cannot remember. This refers to a Workers' Unity, a bulletin of the South African Congress of Trade Unions» Volume I, No, 8, and it could be marked G. 494a, My Lords. That 20 concludes the evidence on this meeting. My Lords, the report that relates to this meeting of the 22nd January, 1956, from which this witness got the date, will be marked G. 733a. The next meeting is the meeting of the 8th February, It is a meeting referred to by Detec- 25 tive Sergeant Coetzee in his evidence, G I hand you a document dated Can you identify that document? Yes, My Lord. Is that in your handwriting? It is in my handwriting, My Lord. 30 Are they notes of a meeting that you attended? That is correct, My Lord.
40 d- SHARP) On what date? On the 8, Whore was the meeting held? At the Trades Hall, Johannesburg. Under the auspices of what organisation? The Scuth African Congress of Trade Unions. 5 Did you make a note there of the people who attended this meeting? Yes, My Lord. Will you refer to your note. What was the first name you have got there? D. C, Thompson, No. 2? A. Hufcchinson. 10 No. 3? No. 6? No. 9? Dr. H.M. Moosa, E. Moolla. P. Adams. What P. Adams is that? Faried Adams. No. 10? L, Morrison ? L. Masina. No. 14? I. Mathole. Just go on from there? P. Mathole, P. Beyleveld, Dr. R. E. Press, M. Moolla. T. Mmusi What Moolla is that? Moosa Moolla. Desai. 20 ( No. 20? No. 22? No. 26? Hymie Barsel. 0. Motsabi. H. Joseph. No.27? R. Resha. 25 No. 29? No. 31? N. Sejake. Leon Levy. No. 33? No, 35? Mpathlele (?). No. 37? J. Nkadimeng. COURT ADJOURNS. No. 38? A. Mahlangu. 30 That concludes that meeting, My Lord.