On behalf of the National Executive Council, Mr. Piet Beyleveld was able to come at the last moment."

Transcription

1 a n ybody in Congress who suggests force. Yet a Minister says, hit and shojt. ^11 this arises from a desire to keep us down. What are the aims of Congresses. We say that civilisation was started by the White people, hut that God.. - couldn't write down something there... I say let us share. I hesitate to say equality. I rely on the good sense of the police andnot the Minister. That is our only solvation. Being liberal in this country is despicable. Anybody talking of doing justice is a sinner. Our task is to show them in the Government that they are running to their own doom. Our duty is clear. Ban or no ban. Worse being done. We must fight on and never turn back. We are glad to be the inheritors of the 1949 programme ' of action. I wish some of those who started the programme will help us. We must fight, not turn back. Our difficulties are great. We are decreased by the weaknesses in the home front. Some out of fear counsel our community to trust our future to Whitepeople generally. One would not mind their Counsel is they were prepared to carry us to that future, but they admit quite unashamedly that they will be turned back. The Bantu Authority State with the chief, the Native Commissionei and the Secretary of Native Affairs. There it ends. Now you say, Albert Luthuli, you must trust your future with this man. Then you are asking just a little too much. First we must convert him. We must expose the quislings amongst our own people. At Pine town recently a man was forced to take back his workers illegally ejected. The Dock Workers, these workers rightly claimed that they were getting a sub-economic wage. I am not saying 15/- is enough, but at least they are entitled to 15/-. At Point they wanted to elect their own man. They remembered that Pungula was deported. Our task is to teach these people never to be discouraged. You will be called names. The politician will be an agitator. How will we ensure that this will be donel By me.ns of the spoken word. We must build

2 up a common democratic stand. I must here commend to you and invite you to t.ke an interest in the Congress of the People, where all people of all nationalities will get a chance to express themselves. We support the fight of oppressed people elsewhere. How can a true democratic people fail to take an interest in the sufferings of people elsewhere. I am as much concerned with their sufferings as I am with my own liberation. Never deter from the path of strengthening the democratic front. Let people say what they think about us. The history of humanity is one of fighting from slavery to freedom. Like Washington we say : Up from slavery. Unfortunately, it is - only in South Africa where the small ruling Whiteminority want to keep the people of South Africa in permanent enslavement I note with tion the stand of seven i.sian countries. We realise they have no ambition to come and colonise South Africa. Th«y know of the sufferings that entails. ' 7 e the A.N.C. have confidence in your leadership. We are resolved not to turn back. We are glad to h:.ve people such as you as our allies. I have the greatest pleasure in deel ring this twenty-first Conference open. Mayibuye. Afrika. Who was the next speaker? Dr. Naicker. Dr. G. M. Naicker. Is he one of the Accused? Yes (139). Read what he said? I have a notebehind his name, ^ctiiig President of the South African Indian Congress. He thanked Luthuli. Who was the next speaker? Dr. Wollheim, the acting Chairman of the Liberal Party. Will you omit what he said. The next? M. 3. Yengwa. Is he one of the Accused? Yes (151). What did he do? He read a message from Walter Sisulu on behalf of the A.N.C. Walter Sisulu, one of the Accused? I don't know.

3 The next speaker? Mrs. Lavoipierre. She was from the South African Congress of Democrats. Read what she said? "Fraternal greetings of the South African Congress of Democrats. It is a national organisation of the citizens of South Africa. They have pledged themselves for world peace. Support a programme of full rights of all citizens. On behalf of the National Executive Council, Mr. Piet Beyleveld was able to come at the last moment." The next speaker? Piet Beyleveld. One of the Accused? Yes (6). Read what you noted down? He said : "Came into being about a year ago. It was conscious of the importance of cooperation with oth~r national liberatory movements. Extend a welcome. I have the honour to be the Chairman of the Committee set up to co-ordinate efforts for the Conference of the Congress of the People. Attacked the Government." The next speaker? Dr. Hendricks, from the Coloured People's Organisation. Omit what he said. The next? Bertha Mkize, Is she one of the Accused? (136). Omit what she did. The next? J. N. Singh. 'That did he do? He read messages from various organisations and people to the Conference. Read them? The first message was from China, the biggest nation and country in the world. Mao Tse Tsung wishing success. Then from Egypt, General Nasser, Prime Minister of Egypt. Sudan - Prime Minister of Sudan. From the Phillipines - United Nations Delegation. From Indian- the General Secretary of tha Indian Congress. From Indonesia - United Nations Representative. From the World Federation of Trade Unions - Vienna and Austria. From the W. I.D.F. (I can't recall what that stands for), it is in Berlin, from Marie Somebody. Then from the All-China Federation of Trade Unions. From the World

4 Federation of Democratic Youth in Budapest. From the International Federation of Democratic Lawyers in Largos. From America Paul Robeson, the Council of African Affairs. From Rhodesia, the Reformed Industrial Workers Union. From London, Dr. K. Kumbin. From Australia, B. E. V. Pollcott. From London, the Reverend Michael Schoct and A. Creech-Jones. From Johannesburg, Patrick Duncan and Frieda Thorp, What happened then? Then A. Patel from the Transvaal brought greeting:-- from the Transvaal. Is he one of the Accused? Yes (58). Then a Mr. Mathi from the Cape said he saw the growth of the South African Indian Congress since Can you say whether he is one of the Accused? I don't know. The next? Mr. I. C. Meer. He is one of the Accused {134). 'That did he do? He proposed a vote of thanks for the messages and wishes of goodwill. Said something about the Liberal Party and he hinted that all the Congresses will merge into one Congress of the People. Did you also make notes in respect of the banners in front of the hall? Read them? Defend Homes defeat Apartheid. No Compromise on Group Areas. Mayibuye lafrika! Inkululeko Nge Sikathi Setho - Freedom in our Lifetime. Let us Organise together for the Congress of the People. We call the people of South Africa, Black and 7 hite unite for Freedom. 21st National Conference, South African Indian Congress. Then did you make a list of names of persons who attended the Conference? Will you go through them and mention the names of Accused persons whom you have not already mentioned? I mentioned N. B. Yengwa, didn't I. Debbie Singh (149); Mr. Jan Hoogendyk (130); M. P. Naicker (140).

5 I see on the typed copy there is E. A. Seedat. Is he,.? That is D. A. Seedat"s brother. You hand in your notes EXHIBIT G. 764? ( ) EXAMINATION BY P.P. CONTINUED s Did you make a report in respect of a Conference held on the 25th March, 1955? Then did you prepare your report? On the 26th March, 1955» a day after the meeting. From what did you prepare your report? From notes I made at the meeting? What happened to your original notes? I don't know. They became lost. I have hunted high and low for them. I haven't been able to find them. You now refer to your report? What Conference was it? It was the Eighth Annual Conference of the Natal Indian Congress. /here was it held? xit the Bharat Hall, in Durban. Can you say what time the Conference started? No, apparently I don't have a note of the time it started. I have a note of when it ended. Who was the Chairman? Mr. Lawrence. Did he open the Conference? Yes, he opened the Conference with a prayer. Then after the prayer, just read? Then a Mr. N. T. Naicker, one of the Accused (141), he read a speech by Father Huddleston. I obtained a copy of this speech the next day. It was in roneod form. Then thereafter? Dr. Padyachee read a speech by Dr. G. M. Naicker. Is G. M. Naicker also one of the Accused? Yes (139). Yes? Thereafter Lawrence spoke again and thanked Dr. Padyachee, and then K. Moonsamy, one of the Accused (137)

6 read messages of goodwill to the Conference. And who addressed the meeting then? The Conference? Mr. P. Beyleveld, also one of the Accused (6). Read what he said? "On behalf of the National Action Council of the Congress of the People, I have been asked to convey to you this message. The Congress movement is fighting every inch of the way to realise the ambitions of the people f South Africa. It is necessary that we review the political situation in this country today. The situation we are in was forced on us. We must determine our own course. We must therefore review the political situation. It is one of racial tension. It is the result of the present Government's action to entrench one section over all other races. It is basically a racial one. It can be solved by forming a partnership of all the races. But there is the other side who believe in the entrenching of power in one group. This is the present Government. They will use their position as the Government to entrench themselves. You can see how they go about banning people. In opposition is the Congress movement, of which there are the N.I.C., the A.N.C. and the younger part, the Congress of Democrats and also the South African Coloured People's Organisation and the South African Congress of Trade Unions. We believe in r acial equality. The dignity of man. This is the only opposition to the Nationalists. There is another political body. They are not as bad as the Nationalists, but they also believe in inequality. The Nationalists will have to increase their police force to maintain all these laws they are passing. The third political force will then disappear. It will either join the Nationalists or it will join us anddemand freedom for the people of South Africa. There is only these two alternatives. Either submit to the tyranny of the apartheid policy or join us. For a right minded people there is no choice. The non-european people have no choice. They have

7 to join us. The masses of chained and oppressed people of South Africa is waiting for a lead. It is up to the Congress movement, the chief liberatory movement to give them a lead* We must consolidate the forces against tyranny. We must mobilis* the people to state their demands, what they expect and what they demand. They must state clearly what they want if they. were to rule this country. That is why the Congress of the People is held on the 25th and 26th of June this year. The Congress of the People is organised by the National Action Council for the. Congress of the People, It is not a dangerous and subversive organisation as some people have told you. They cannot substantiate this. The Minister says in Parliament that if the police had been able to attend that meeting in Jofrannesbirg they would have had the evidence to prove this. I h,ve Challenged the Minister to repeat this outside Parliament, but he won't because I can sue him for damages the next day. The facts are that the police were at that meeting from 10 a.m. till 4 p*m. The Minister said that at that meeting people who were banned were advertised to speak. The adverts went out two weeks before the Conference and this man received his ban only a day before the meeting. We must organise the people to state its opposition. The Congress of the People is not an organisation. It is a Conference at which we hope to bring the representatives of South Africa to state in which way they want to be governed. It was sponsored by the Natal Indian Congress, the South African Indian Congress, the Congress of Democrats, the African National Congress and some Trade Unions. Mr. Chairman, we hope to draw up a Charter there. We have termed it the Freedom Charter. It was suggested that we only invite certain organisations to formulate this Charter. 'We did not want it that way. We want it as a People's Charter. We have organised the people to state what they want. What kind of laws they want. What passes they want to carry and what they think

8 about passports. These are the kind of things we want the people to state. We want the people to send their representatives to this Conference with their demands. Between now and the day of the Congress it will be our duty to gather the demands from every residential area. We must elect delegates who must attend with the demands of the people. The time has come when the Congress of the Peopfe must issue their own manifesto. Mr. Chairman, in the past the Congress movement has been called. all sorts of names. It is urgent that all the Congresses must come together and draw up a manifesto. I want to warn you, the task before us is not an easy one. The Nationalist Government will do their best to entrench themselves. The Nationalist Government is riding the crest of "tfre waves today, but they can build no longer and must decline. Ours is a terrific potential. We have world opinion on our side. All over the world people are striking against imperialism. This must wake up Africa as a whole. We have world opinion on our side. As the conflict sharpens, there will be a conflict of ideologies and as that sharpens so will the middle of the road policy pursued by some of the political parties disappear. If you study the position since you will realise that they will take our side. Since then we have had the Defiance Campaign. We have seen the formation of the Liberal Party. We have seen the birth of the Congress of Democrats. I believe that as the conflict sharpens the larger group will throw in thuir lot with us. The Nationalists hope to cripple the national liberatory movements. This is an illusion. These bannings. Once the people start marching, you cannot stop them, just read world history. While I believe that the policy of apartheid must disappear, we will be able to build our own potential. To your Congress and the other liberatory movements belongs the future. I wish you all the success with your Conference".

9 Accused (58). The next speaker? A. E. Patel. Also one of the Read? "On behalf of the South African Indian Congress I bring you greetings and good wishes. This message should have been delivered by the President or the Secretary. You should know the reason why not. It is this notorious Suppression of Communism Act. Other speakers have dealt with the absence of your leaders in Natal. In 1948 we said we knew what was in store for the democratic organisations in this country. In 1950 they introduced a number of obnoxious laws. This legilation was to form the basis for the entrenching of the Nationalist Party. When the Suppression of Communism Act was introduced we were told that it was aimed at Communists. We warned that it was aimed at liberatory movements. Now we see that men like Dr. Baicker, Mr. Cachalia and Mr. Nana Sita are banned under this Act. Now you see young and new men who have been elected to carry on the struggle. Many people in 1948 decided to leave this country. The non-europeans knew what was in store for them. We have opposed every bit of legislation aimed against us. Since 1950, Dr. Donges has not been able to implement the Group Areas Act. Yesterday you must have read in the press that Mr. de Vos Hugo decided to recuse himself. If we carry on the way we have been since 1948, I can see only victory ahead of us. In Parliament Dr. Dongess pej-id us a compliment by saying that he will give the Chairman of the Land Tenure Board the right to decide who is to appear before the Board and who not. They know that the people are united and determined that Group Areas will not be set aside the way the Minister thinks. Your responsibility is to give your support to the new leadership". The next speaker? Stephen Dhlamini. Also one of the Accused (128). Read? Ladies and Gentlemen. The imperialists have

10 lost a lot of markets in the East, therefore they have come to South Africa for new markets, but the lessons the imperialists have learnt in China, they will soon learn in South Africa. Although the enemy seems vicious they have been crippled. You see it in Parliament. The Nationalists Party is so desperate that they have passed the Bantu Education Act and other oppressive laws. They say what we must learn we have no say in the matter. We cannot even have our Conferences or the police are present. That is a sign of fear. Although we want freedom, we essentially want peace. It is essential that the money spent on armaments must be utiised to build houses for the people. We want freedom, peace and friendship. 1,; e will credit a hundred per cent anything Congress decides. The next? An unknown speaker spoke. Read what he said? "I bring greetings to the Eighth Annual Conference of the Natal Indian Congress..7e have been in the forefront of the peace struggle in Africa. Hundreds of fighters for freedom are being shot or languishing in prisons in Kenya. The forces of peace have increased all over the world and have been able to thwart the aims of war-mongers. I wish you success in your deliberations. I wish to say that your banned President has rightly Sc.id that the only way peace could be maintained is to recognise China with her six hundred million people, to bann atomic bombs and that Formosa should be handed back to China. The imperialists must get out of Asia." Then Mr. V. S. M. Pillay, also one of the Accused (145) spoke. Read? "Mr. Chairman, Ladies and Gentlemen. I bring greetings from the South African Congress of Trade Unions. For the last six years we have seen the Nationalists manufacturing a sort of jug-saw puzzle. They now want to git this jigsaw puzzle into a plan. But the workers are not going to allow these political maniacs to achieve their ends. The Trade Union

11 leaders have done.niore for the people of this country than all the Malans, Strijdoms and Verwoerds. Just as your Congress is pledged to fight for basic rights, so our Trade Unions stand steadfastly by Trade Union principles, ^he South African Congress of Trs.de Unions will potentially be the greatest ally for freedom in this country". The next? Then A. B. Ngcobo, also one of the Accused, spoke (143). Read? "It is the duty of my organisation and all freedom loving organisations to save civilisation even at this late hour. We have the mankind in our hands.." - apparently there is some mistake there - ".. Our duty is no different from that of the Christians who saved Christianity of the Jews, even though they were not Christians themselves. We must save ^civilisation from the hands of the power drunk people who are about to destroy it. We must save that which the possessor aims to destroy. We have got to deny ourselves boiily and spiritual freedom. My organisation, the lower wing of the African National Congress, wishes you every success". The next speaker? S. M. Mayet. Omit. The next speaker? Mr. N. T. Naicker. What did he do? He moved that the Conference adjourns until 2.30 p.m. on the 26th March, 1955 to reassemble at the Madressa Hall in Pine Street. You hand in your report, EXHIBIT G. 765? The next day, what did you obtain? The neit day I obtained the one speech by Mr. Lawrence,... A roneod document, is th,.t correct? Is that the speech which he made? I looked at it the next day and of course I couldn't remember every word, but I was quite sure that it was the identical speech that he had made the day before. You hand that in, EXHIBIT G. 766?

12 And..? And then I h.ve the speech of Father Huddleston, which was I think read by Mr. Li. T. Naicker. Was that the speech which was read at the Conference? You hand that in EXHIBIT G. 767? Then I have also the Presidential Address of Dr. G. M. Naicker, which was read by Dr. Padyachee. It was also the sane speech which was read the previous night. Is that in the sane document? No, it is a separate document. You hand that in EXHIBIT G. 768? EXAMINATION BY P.P. CONTINUED : Do you know whether the Africa n National Congress held its Annual Conference in Durban during 1954? Yes, I remember that they held it at the Bantu Social Centre, in Durban. Did you attend the Conference? The open sessions I did. You have no notes in respect of that Conference? No, I have no notes. Did you also - do you also know whether the Natal Indian Congress held a Conference during 1954, an Annual Conference? Do you know where it was held? I cannot remember the hall where it was held. I know they held one in Durban. You can't remember what dat~ either? No. You made no notes? No. EXAMINATION BY P.P. CONTINUED s ( ) You are now referring to Exhibit G. 735? Notes referring to a meeting of the Natal Peace Council held on the 23rd May, 19^5? This Exhibit has already been handed in. The first portion of Exhibit G. 735? The first portion of it was made

13 by Detective Head Constable Truter. I went with him to this meeting. Did you also make notes at that meeting? Yes, 1 made notes of the speech by the Reverend Thompson, who is also one of the Accused (78). Will you read what he said? "I am delighted to be here. My visit to Natal a great joy. Most gratified to hear the Report of the Natal Peace Council. Peace Work is of vital importance. It is usual for a Minister of religion to take a text from the Bible and to preach on it. I am also going to take a text, not from the Scriptures. Mine is from history. Arnold Toinby in England I was very interested in the peace movement. England was still recovering. Arnold Toinby said, No annihilation without representation. At that time there was the great giants of the U.S.A. and the U.S.S.R. Britain was in between. He said - Don't blot us out without our having a say in the matter. That could be very well the motto of the peace movement of the whole world. I have been glad to see progressive moves throughout the world. I saw Berlin after the war - -.fter the world war. I saw the Unaerder-Linden, the remains of Hindenburg's palace and the flattened remains of Hitler's Reich. The devastation and rubble we saw. Continues to build up broken down and lext. I doubt whether Europe will ever recover. Peace will not only come by crying for it. Only when things are rightly balanced will this come about. I assume that we are living in the age between the ages. It is going to be a tragic era. I seek the birth of the new age of men. There is going to be a catastrophic change. We may be forced to live in.."- then I ommitted the rest of the sntence - ".. We are living in economic... - I can't make it out - "... We are living in the period of the First World Revolution. This revolution is assuming two particular forms. First of all there is the social revolution. Secondly there is the colonial revolution, who have been living

14 in backward conditions. They ar c now finding themselves in a different position. War is the father of revolution. Wars are civil revolutions in a defacto world. be a major catastrophe for all mankind. The third world war will Social changes will go on. To attempt to solve the crisis by means of war will be a major disaster. No -celling when it will end. Peace movement is to work for a peaceful change. The same world power that threatens us today can be used to shape this new age. As a Christian we must lea.rn from our Master xo neutralise all the fears that beset us. Having made these assumptions, I want to say that I disagreee with the saying thr:t war settles nothing, ihe results cf the last two wars have been determinative of a great deal for mankind. I cannot speak about the consequences of the third world war» because I do not think there would be any generation after it. Scientists today are warning people about the terrible consequences of war. We are working for peace with our eyes open. War never restores the status quo before the war. ns the result of modern wars the consequences are so different from that preceding the war. le quoted the aims of the '.'first world war. It was therefore a disillusionment to the allies. The unexpected issues of war are Very important to the student of history and the lover of peace. I was the Chairman at a meeting last week in Johannesburg where Professor Arthur Blekesley spoke about the effects of the atomic and hydrogen bombs. He described the effects of these bombs. He describes the power of the bombs. The effect it will have on the earth. Speaker goes on to describe how Professor Blekesley describes the explosion of the bombs. I believe that we have now come to a crisis. The division between nations are..." - I can't make out this word - ".. Problems are not.." - I cant make this out - "... Asia and Africa are active. The mass of mankind has become aware of its povery and disease. Changes take place. I must end with an earnest

15 plea to you all. It is a great fight. A fight for peace. By working for peace you arc working for a better understanding of all the issues. He was thanked by the Chairman." NO FURTHER QUESTIONS. CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. COAKER : With regard to this meeting of which you have given evidence, at which a speech of Father Hu dleston was read, on the 25th March, 1955, where did obtain these three roneod documents purporting to be speeches by these people? - - I am not quite sure. I used to get these documents from the Natal Indian Congress afterwards. I knew the clerk there, and I would go to him the morning after the meeting and ask him if I could get these speeches. This was at the offices of the Natal Indian Congress in Durban and the clerk would give them to me. I cannot swear that those - that I got those on that occasion from him, but I think I did. You have on occasions obtained documents in this way? You haven't encountered any reluctance to let you have these speeches or anything like that? Sometimes, but mostly not. I take it that all these Congress - at these Conference you made your notes in longhand? I think you have already agreed with me on a previous occasion that a man writing in longhand cannot get down everything that is said by a speaker? There may also be things which you have teisheard or which re not correctly reflected in your notes? I suppose that could happen. You agree that that may be so? - Usually you endeavoured to record exactly what the speaker said? Why on occasions do you use indirect speech? You say

16 things like 'He now said that..'? Sometimes it happens that one writes and then you get behind, and you write down the last sentence that you have heard properly, then the witness goes on - rather the speaker goes on to speak on a certain subject. Then you know that y u won't be able to write down all that, and you just say : 'The speaker said this and that,.' You sort of generalise. He may have spoken for five minutes and then you just write one sentence there. That means that you were not able to hear or keep up with that portion? You could hear, but you haven't been able to write it down. 9 You couldn't devote your attention to it and write swiftly enough.,? - You cannot. Sometimes you do miss something. For example, I see that in the notes you made on the Conference on the 9th July, 1954, you have written down I. C. Meer. Vote of thanks for messages of goodwill. The Liberal Party. Hinted That the Congresses will merge into one Congress of the People'? He may have spoken for quite some time. That may be quite a long speech which you have endeavourei to complete in this way? Yes, perhaps towards the end of a meeting one gets tired and one does not write as much as you would perhaps at the beginning of the meeting. Then he may speak for quite a time about the Liberal Party and you will just say 'Discussed Liberal Party'. If you say that he hinted that something happened, that means that he didn't say it would happen? No, I gathered the impression that that was going to happen. But he couldn't said that, or else you wouldn't have written that he hinted at it? No, he couldn't. If he deliberately said it, I would have said that he said it. In fact you may have had a mistaken impression as to

17 what it was that he was saying? I may have been mistaken. These Conferences, you were present, quite openly taking notes? You were not concealed on the premises? No. Those were only the open se ions f the Conferences. We were not allowed in the closed sessions. Not only you were not allowed at closed sessions, but nobody who was not a delegate was allowed? Nobody. You have had some experience of these delegates Conferences have you not? And the procedure, correct me if I am wrong, is that some sessions are open to all members of the public? Yes, invariably the opening sessions, when they have a prominent personality, normally from another organisation or another area to open the Conference- After that they get down to business and then nobody who is not a delegate is permitted to enter? Quite correct. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS. NO RE-EXAMINATION. (Int. E. Mazwai, Xhosa - Eng} GLADWELL NGCAI, duly sworn; EXAMINED BY THE P.P. : ( ) Did you take notes at a meeting held on the 29th May, 1955? What meeting, or Conference was it? A Conference of the African National Congress Youth League. Where was it held? Mathabe hall. Where is that? No. 6 Annadale Street, Sophiatown, Johannesburg. Did you keep observation there? Did you make a list of names of persons who attended the Conference? Will you go through your list and mention the names of Accused persons whom you saw there? Farrid Adam (l);

18 Elias Moretsele (46); Patrick Molaoa (42); Johannes Modiese (41); Robert Resha (63); Henry Tshabalala (77); Henry Gordon Makgothi (29); Simon Tyiki (75); Piet Nthite (57); William Shope (68); Joshua Makwe (28); Sarn Masemola (33); Mary Rantha (62); William Ngwendu (53); James Radebe (61). You hand in your notes EXHIBIT G. 769? I do. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS. CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. COAKER : Will you find me the place in the pocket book in which you made these particular notes? From page 45 to page 49. (Witness stands down). DOUGLAS NDABA, duly sworn; (Int. E. Mazwai - Xosa-Eng) EXAMINED BY THE P.P. : You have already given evidence? Did you make notes of a Conference held on the 6th November, 1955? You have your notes before you? What Conference was it? African National Congress Conference Transvaal. Orlando, Johannesburg? Did you make a list of names of persons who attended the Conference? Will you go through your list of names and mention the names of Accused persons? John Nkadimeng (54); P. Mathole (37); E. Malele (30); M. w. shope (68); J. Kumalo (17); B. Ngwendu (53); L. Masina (34); R. Resha (63)? N. Sejake (65); E. P. Moretsele (46); July Mashaba (35); Bertha Mashaba (36); Johas Matlou (38); Pieter Ntite (57); L. Ngoyi (52); Patrick Malaoa (42); R. Thunzi (76); Mary Rantha (62); Aron Mahlangu (24); Peter Mogofe (26). You hand in your notes EXHIBIT G. 770? I cu. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.

19 CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. COAKER : I take it that you had kept outside - observation outside many hundreds of meetings in your time? And you can't distinguish any particular meeting now from any other meeting? - You can't remember anything in particular about one meeting as against another? No, unless I have written it down. You can't remember anything except what is written down in your notes? You can't remember whether it was a find day or a cloudy day? No. You can't remember whether it was a meeting of the African National Congress or the African National Congress Youth League? No. Except what I have written. Or indeed any other organisation upon which you have kept observation, unless it is in your notes? That is so. What is the first thing that appears in your notes? «Communal Hall, Orlando, 11 a.m. to 7 p.m. After that? Then the names of the people seen entering the Hall. Is there a date? Apart from that, on both sides of this piece of paper there is nothing except names? And motor car registration numbers. But there is nothing there to tell you what this meeting was, who had organised it? No. You can't remember that? No. BY THE COURT : I don't know whether I understand. Do I understand you to say that you don't know what meeting this was? I - know what the meeting was at the time, but there is nothing writ en here to indicate that. How do you know that it was a Conference of the A.N.C. Transvaal? When I submitted my report, when I made

20 a full report which I attached to this. It is there. That information is contained in my report. Evidence hasn't been led about a report that he has made, has it? You made a report then, and was it mentioned in your report that this was a meeting of the A.N.C. Transvaal, or rather a Conference of the A.N.C. Transvaal? Yes, A.N.C. Conference held at the Communal Hall, Orlando. Did you make - "lien did you make that report? The following day. And did you refer to yeur report to refresh your memory No, I only looked at the notes before me now. But you say this fact is not mentioned in your notes, the fact that it was a A.N.C. Conference? That is correct. And the fact that it was a A.N.C. Conference, you had mentioned in your report? Did you refer to your report, orhow to you know now that it was an A.N.C. Conference? When did I refer. Did you refer to your report to find out that it was the A.N.C. Conference, or how do you remember it? Yes, I referred to my report today together with my notes. CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. SLOYO : You did say, I take it, that you did refer to a report? Where did you get the information that this was a meeting of the African National Congress, do you remember now? I got the agenda of that particular Conference. Do you remember that you got the Agenda of this particular Conference? I think it is with the Prosecutor. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS. NO RE-EXAMINATION. ( ) NICHOLAS JOHANNES VAN ZYI SCHOEMAN, duly sworn; EXAMINED BY THE P.P. : Did you take shorthand notes at a meeting held on the

21 th May, 1955? Lid you make a transcript of your shorthand notes? Yes, I did. You have the transcript before you, is that correct? What happened to your shorthand notes, do you know? I don't know, -they were mislaid. I can't find them. Is your transcript a correct one? What meeting was it? It was a Women's meeting. You don't know wiiich organisation? No, I have got Women's meeting here. Where was it held? In the Trades Hall, 30 Kerk Street, Johannesburg. know. Lo you know who was presiding in the Chair? Will you read your report? "This meeting I don't commenced with the singing of Nkosi Sikeleli i Afrika. Chairlady ; Friends and fellow workers. We have met here this afternoon as mothers, as citizens and as women of the future. To discuss our plans and demands that we are going to place before the forthcoming Congress of the People. You have noticed in the leaflet that we have sent out, that we are going to discuss the demands of the women. You know that on June the 25th and 26th we arc having the great Congress of the People. The Congress of the People is an organisation that is going to decide the future of South Africa. It is an organisation where the people are going to put forward their demands. You know that we have been putting forward our demands all the time. BY MR. SLOVO : Before the witness carries on, would your Worship permit me to a sk a few questions of this witness in order to lay a basis for challenging the admissibility of this evidence.

22 (Permission granted). Consta le, were you agq.in hidden somewhere on this occasion? Where were you hidden? Behind the cupboard. Is this the same cupboard? This cupboard, was that in the main hall or in the kitchen? In the main hall. Covering the door? And the door was closed, I think you told us on a previous occasion? The door wasn't locked, I opened it myself. But when you were in the kitchen, while you were recording, did you close the door? No. The door was open. All the time? Wide open? But of course the cupboard was hiding you? Yes, the cupboard was in the hall, and I opened the door. The door opened into the kitchen and I moved the table into the door. Who put that cupboard in front of the door? I don't know. It was there when I arrived in the.-hall. How did you get into the kitchen? I went through the one hall into the kitchen. And then who placed the cupboard in front of the door? I don't know. After you walked in, somebody went and placed it there? I don't know. When I went in, it was there. But how could you walk in when the cupboard was in front of the door? There are two doors. I went in mby a different door. I didn't go in through the door where the cupboard was standing. You have told us that you entered this kitchen from a door which leads off from the main hall? Not the main hall where the meeting was held. Another hall. What hall was it? I think was hall No. 2, if I am

23 not mistaken. "'here were you, in the kitchen next to hall No. 3? There is a door interleading from the hall into the kitchen. I went through that door. And in front of that door there is a cupboard? No. In front of which door was the cupboard? ^here is another door leading into the hall where the meeting was. That is where the cupboard was. Prom where you were, you were completely hidden? At all stages? From the beginning of the meeting to the end of the meeting? You couldn't see any person and they couldn't see you? No. In fact it was impossible for them to see you? Yes, unless they got onto the wardrobe and peeped over it. It was impossible for you to see anyone in the hall? It was absolutely impossible. Were you there alone? All the time? So the information that you received that this was a Women's Meeting, was this from your superior officers? I don't remember where I got this information from. But it is certainly not from your observation? No. You couldn't observe anything? No. So we have reached the stage where you certainly couldn't observe from what you saw that this was a Women's Meeting and that you don't remember whether you were given this information by your superiors or you obtained it in any other way? Correct. I notice during the course of your recording you have on occasions written down the name of a speaker? Where did you get that name from? This name, possibly I got this when I made my transcript, or otherwise it

24 may have been that it was announced by the Chairlady. I see, if you have a look at your transcript, - Let me put it this way. Do you of your own knowledge know whether any Accused spoke at this meeting? No, I am not in a position to say. You don't know who organised the meeting? I don't know. (COURT, MR. SLOYO AND MR. COAKER DISCUSS. OBJECTION BY MR. SLOVO NOTED). BY THE P.P. s May the witness continue from where he stopped? Will you read? "The Congress of the People is the organisation that is going to decide the future of South Africa. It is the organisation where the people are going to put forward their demands. You know that we have been putting forward our demands all the time. Everytime we meet at a meeting, we pass a resolution and every time we m^et at a meeting, we tell our followers what we want, but this u overnment such as we have in South Africa, all these demands we have put forward, have been falling on futile ground. Now we have decided that the African people should come forward and put their demands as one man. Now the Congress of the People is coming, and we are sending delegates from all over the country to represent the women of South Africa. You have often heard of the Congresses that h ve gathered abroad. Now you are going to hear of the Congress of the People that is to be held here in South Africa, and we as mothers, guided by the Federation of South African Women, are the people who play the most important part in this Congress. If this Congress is to be a success, we should make it so. If our demands have got to be met, we have to know what these demands gre and ensure that they are put before Congress and work for the success of these demands. Because we as mothers have given birth to children. We who understand the future of our children and it is we who must see that the

25 future of our children and it is we who must see that the future of our children is well assured. So I call.n you here today to make this Congress of the People a success. / Ycu will have noticed that we have speakers here to sp c ak on the special demands of the women, because we feel that if we were to give everybody time to speafe at a meeting like this, then we would have to sit here for two months and not have everybody to say what she wants or what they want. So we decided that we have Women's Organisations giving us their demands, and we compiled these demands and we ^re going to discuss these demands at this meeting. Now we ask everybody to give us their co-operation so that we should finish our work in good time this afternoon. Friends, I want to ask that you should help us in getting our people who would be able to supply sleeping quarters. We have one or two who are prepared to do this, but we can't expect that they must put up the whole meeting. So what we are going to do is, we are going to have alternatives. One night in this quarter, and the next night in the other. And I hope the women will come forward and offer their help. We are having our first speaker here who is going to speak to you on the demands that we as women are putting forward on schools and children. Miss Mary Mkizi. Shouts of Afrika, Mayebuye. Was that the end of the speech? Will you omit what Mary Mkizi said, that is from there to the top of page three, and who spoke after her? The Chairlady. Will you also omit that. Then after the Chairlady? A speaker. Unknown speaker. Will you omit that as well. After that? The Chairlady spoke. Will you omit that as well. The next speaker? There is another unknown speaker. After her, again the Chairla.dy? f

26 And then there was another unknown speaker, is that correct? Correct. Omit that as well. Then again the Chairlady? Then again an unknown speaker? Again the Chairlady? Correct. And then on page 5 there is a speaker again, in brackets Mary Mkizi? Will you read from there again? "This is the second.. BY MR. SLOVO : Mkizi has got a question mark after it. Not a full stop. BY THE COURT : What does that imply? - That means that I wasn't sure that it was Mary Mkizi who spoke, I merely went by the voice. In any case the speech would probably still be admissible if the other matters are linked up, BY THE P.P. s Will you read from there, please? "This is the second demand that we women should include. In fact I think that before I say this, I should thank our women for what they did in the past. In most places we had our women folk arrestad and most of our women have been astounded by the Government because of what they did. I must commend them for this before I go on. And again I will make certain concessions concerning what they did. Our Bantu Education must have the sole object of raising the education of the child. This old people and this old race are superior to all others. The fundamental aim of education says that education means the development of the social standing of the individual. Basical education to develop and cultivate the individual pupil. Every system purporting to the basis which ignores this, does not educate. I think this gathering will agree with me that Bantu Education is something which should not exist in this part of Africa. Shouts of Afrika. Because Bantu Education is existing nowhere, and Bantu Education has never existed, it only exists in the

27 minds. In the minds of the Nationalist Government. Let us speak of Bantu Education as a thing, and let me say that we mothers of South Africa agree with this Bantu Education, it is a sin that we will have to answer before God. Let us fight this Bantu Education. Let us destroy this Bantu Education before it destroys the future of our children. Again I will agitate for the schools. Schools feeding and free milk for all children in daily schools. More nursery schools and primary schools and secondary schools. I want to appeal to the women that they should know that their children should have free sitting in schools, because we are being informed now that the Government is paying very high for the education of Bantu children. I want to challenge the Nationalist Government for speaking a lie. The Government is paying absolutely nothing for educating our African children. In the first place, our Africans are being taken away to work for farmers, and they are not getting paid for it. Our Africans are paying tax every year. Where, where on earth can a man claim to be paying for education for your children when your husband is still working hard to pay for that child ahd there are every so many differences in status that the Government is making over the African people. So I think this demand must be tables. Special schools for handicapped children. I thini parents will agree with me that there are ever so many African children who are lame, blind and can't talk. Surely we don't see such things with Europeans. We ohly see it with Africans. Let us be united and fight against this and get special schools for helpless children". Will you omit the rest of the speech. Will you turn to page seven. "Now our next speaker.." from there on? "Now our next speaker, Mr. Matlou..." You are now reading from the speech of the Chairlady, is that correct? "He is going to.speak on land,

28 farms and reserves. Ladies I have to explain that we had to ask one of our gentlemen friends to come and give us this demand, because we feel that we as women will not be able to give you the essence of hardships and grievances and put the demands as it should be put. Because we are not capable of having knowledge of that part of it, but in the near future we will be able to do so, because I am one of the women who say that when we, the workers, take over this country, the women will be driving tractors and they will be sharing the labour of the farms. Shouts of Mayebuye Afrika. Matlou :.." CASE REMANDED UNTIL MONDAY, 1ST JULY, 1957.

29 COURT RESUMES APPEARANCES AS BEFORE : MR. COCKER ADDRESSES COURT : Accused Absent : No. 45 H.M. Moosa; No. 55 L. Nkosi; No. 98 L. B. Lee Warden; No. 105 C. Jasson; No. 145 V.3.M. Pillay; No. 93 G. Peake; No. 83 L. Forman; No. 19 J. Kumalo; No. 68 M.W. Shope No. 2 M. Asmal; No. 77 H. Tshabalal No. 146 D.A. Seedat. Back in Court : No. 71 G. Sibande; No. 92 G. Ngotyana; No. 95 R. September; No. 116 S. Kalipi; No. 138 M.M. Motala; No. 118 T. Mqotha. NICHOLAS JOHANNES VaN ZYL SCHOEMAN, duly sworn; EXAMINED BY THE P.P. i ( ) Now when the Court adjourned, you were reading from your transcript concerning a meeting held on xhe 29th May, 1955? And you read up to page 7» and the speaker you are now dealing with is Matlou? Will you read what he said? "Ladies and gentlemen, ladies and daughters, mothers and including sons of Africa. I am asked to come here this afternoon, I suppose for the specific view of giving some of the demands. Some of those demands which I am going to start with are as follows ; The ight of all people to own and work their own farms. The development of all uncultivated land. The fair distribution of land amongst all people. The mechanisation of all methods of food production. The scientific improvement of land by irrigation and careful planning. Control of soil erosion and improvement of the soil. Efficient organisati n for the distribution and marketing of food. This I will end off by saying we demand sufficient food for all people. As I said, Lady Chair, my first duty is to justify these demands. If you move out to the rural areas, you will be shocked at the vast spaces of land, mainly farms which have been claimed by the Dutchmen. You will find vast spaces, from one point to

30 another measuring miles and from that point to the next point, in another direction, more miles. And the man will say, this is my land. This piece of land has been my birth for hundreds of years. It has never been cultivated. This man only says : Dit is my plaas. Dit is my grond'. That is the only silly thing in his head, silly head. Now this sort of thing in South Africa, this feudal system, is so b d that you find a group of Africans working on this farm and given the smallest portion, and this one man owns the large piece of land. Certainly there are going to be difficulties there, because immediately you concentrate a group of people on a small portion of land incapable of maintaining them, naturally soil erosion must occur and the control between the feudal laws, these serfs, is that they will render services for certain periods of the year as a result that they are unable to produce sufficient food which would go to recover our economic progress in this country. T ' r e must examine the cause - We must examine, of course, the other related evils to this business. ' 7 e must see quite clearly that when these people have been concentrated. on a small piece of land and have then been in contact between them nd their lord are such that they are un ble to develop, then other social evils must conic. (?) These people must of necessity starve. These people must reduce their stock in order to be accommodated on that piece of land. The fields on which they plough must be reduced to such a measure as to accommodate a great number of people on a small piece of land. The fields on which they plough must be reduced to such a measure as to accommodate a great number of people on a small piece of land. Of course they must exhaust the water supply and that small piece of land necesitself sarily vegetation/on that piece of land must be destroyed. And when these people can't make a living on that piece of land, there must be immigration to town and what happens when

31 they come to town? They must first of all he faced with that / dangerous Nazi law, the pass law. And you will appreciate of course that with the abolition of pass laws in urban areas, so that when these people come from these areas where they can't make a living at all, they will come by way of Johannesburg to the towns so that, Lady Chair and daughters of Africa, I must say that if you have achieved the fair distribution of all land amongst all people, th^n you will have achieved one of the things that will solve progress in this part of the country. That is one thing that perhaps we as people don't realise. That the Government have organised co-operation for farmers and the farmers are under the protection of the Land Bank. The Government have made it a point, not on an economic basis of developing the standards in this country, but of protecting the facilities for these Dutch farmers. They have brought about co-operations and Land Banks and various other organisations to look after these Dutchmen. And the irrigation systems and the improvement of land; the intensifying of the improvement of the land is going on with the assistance of the Government and that the d iy: we should be able to create a Government in this country, which Government will build a programme not to a collective group, but to all the subjects living in this country. Then we shall have achieved one of the greatest things that man should, deserve in this country. You will then realise your responsibility towards your fellow sufferers in the reserves, in the farms find in the various rural areas of this country, being a tremendously large number. The last item here is, we demand sufficient food for all. Speaking to daughters and mothers, I am sure I am speaking to people who understand this demand very clearly. To demand food for everybody, I cannot imagine that of all the things that the workers demand that there is anything which in fact will please God more than the demand that everybody should have sufficient food. I think in this demand lies one of those

32 things that the Congress of the People is really the torch light which must ultimately bring peace and good relations between all races in this country. Shouts of Mayebuye Afrika." Read on. Was that the end of his speech? The next? Read? It was the Chairlady. "Friends I wonder if we really need any discussion on this demand. I think we all are agreed that the conditions on the farms are such as we have heard here. Now, can I ask for somebody to propose and second these demands. Thank you. Now can we have a vote please. All those in favour. All those not in favour. Now may we have the last portion of your demands." The next speaker? Read what he said? Matlou again. "Lady Chair, the last portion of my demand, more and better land for the reserves. Schools for shildren living in the reserves. social facilities in the reserves. Maternity, medical and Shops and controlled prices in the reserves. Planned agricultural development on the reserves. The abolition of migratory labour which destroys our family life by removing our husbands and destroying their health by the conditiohs of their labour and compounds which they live in. We say here that we demand that the reserves become food producing areas and not reservoirs for cheap labour. We demand the transfer of trust lands to the ownership of African people. The abolition of convict farm labour. The payment of minimum.... c. a. 8. h (?) wages for all men and women working on the farms. The abolition of child labour on the farms. Free compulsory universal education for all children in rural areas. The inclusion of farm workers in all industrial legislation. We demand these rights for all people in the rural areas. Lady Chair, I am not going to keep your meeting long now. I am going to leave out a few items of the oppressive laws. I want to deal with the abolition of migratory labour which destroys family life by removing our husbands. Lady Chair, I don't know

33 whether the African people living in the urban areas realise what we have been doing. I don't know. I don't know the extent to which the people living in the urban areas realise the affect of the items I was describing in the first instance on the family life and the social life of the people in the reserves. The evil of sending to a family where a man has got to leave his house for months, if not years. It cannot be, it cannot be conceived. You cannot understand why these issued have got to affect only one race in this country, perhaps in the world, mainly the African people. This clearly shows what disregard the White people in this country, I am not including the sensible ones who are here with us of course, you cannot understand why they have not come to realise that these people are men who are married to their beloved wives, and that making them part with their wives for these lengths of time, destroys the whole social structure of the community. And I want to impress you this afternoon, until you realise fully that this is in fact compulsory labour. This migratory labour is labour where you are forced, only the forcing element of it does not come directly. You are brought into circumstances where you are bound, whether you like it or not, to migrate. And the tragedy of it all is that this system today is going down even to our children. It is going even to our children, and that is why we demand the abolition of child labour on the farms. Now I am going to come to my last poiht and I am coming to my most vital point in this country today. Schools for children living in the reserves. On this point I am bound to relate it with Bantu Education. I 'want to say that for years, for centuries the Government have been collecting money from me. It has been collecting money from the next man. It has been collecting money from everybody, and that money has never, I don't know what portion of it has been in use for the education and development of the African children.

34 I want this meeting to understand fully that we are bearing tremendous responsibilities over the people in thereserves. Because comparatively there are no schools on the farms at all. Comparatively speaking there are not schools at all. And even before the birth of these schools, Dr. Verwoerd has realised that there is sufficient trouble with those areas which have a slightly. I want to say again the word of some of these speakers on these va.rious demands that we the parents of children must be Very guilty before God if we ever allow the children to have Bantu Education. We are guilty of an offence. I want to say to this meeting that you have a duty to perform, namely to spread education to the rural areas and the reserves and to bring that into effect, the only way to help is to destroy Bantu Education here in the urban areas. I think it is my plaine duty to inject every one of you here today with the spirit that is going to drive you to oppose Bantu Education and not oppose it only, which is not enough, bit destroy it for good. Shouts of Mayebuye. I must say therefore, Lady Chair, that I feel that all these demands are properly set and material in nature and that this meeting should be advised to send them to the Congress of the People. Shouts of Mayebuye Afrika." The next speaker? The Chairlady spoke next. Will you omit her speech, that is from page 11 to page 13 at the top. 'Audience agreed..' - start there? "Audience agreed. Chairlady : Our next speaker here will be Mrs. Joseph, our Secretary. Helen Joseph : Afrika! Audience Mayebuye.' Helen Joseph Lady Chair, friends and fellow women. I am going to be very short today, because our time is going by quickly. I chose this set of demands because these are the things that I would like to see and these are the things I want to talk of. These are the demands that the Coloured people, when they get old, the Coloured people when they get sick, the Coloured people when they are well,

35 these are the demands for the Coloured's freedom of speech.nd their right to vote. x oday we are all workers here,a^l of us will one day be too old to work, some of us may one day be too sick to work, and what will happen to us then when we are too old and too sick? In this country the Government makes provision for me, but it does not make provision for all the friends I see here before ^e. In every civilised country in the world, the Government makes provision for the people who are too old and too sick t ; work, but not in South Africa. Here the Government makes provision for the White people, they can draw old age pension, they can dr._.w sickness pension. The pensions are not high, they are 9 per month, but what to the African people draw, if and when they draw anything? The pension isn't even paid every month, on every two months, every three months, and how much is it? A pound. A human person cannot live on that, and we as women demand that these things should be put right. We demand that proper provision shall be made for all people who are too old or too sick to work. We demand also attention for us who are old and too sick to work and look after themselves, there should be proper places where the old people can be cared for, and these things we demand for all people because they exist for a few Europeans, hbtyfor all Europeans, they just exist for a few Europeans, they don't exist at all for the Indian people, and the Coloured people and the African people, and we demand that the State shall demand a proper medical service, doctors, nurses and medicines for all people in South Africa. We demand there shall be free hospitals for all people in South Africa. As I h.ve said in every civilised country in the world these things are provided for people who are sick, and for people who must go to hospital. And we demand that our wages should be sufficient to meet the cost of living. We demand it because we are women and we know what it is like to have no

36 money to buy food for the children. How many women like us here are forced to go out to work, to leave their children because the wages that their husbands earn are not enough to meet the cost of the food that they eat. In this country we talk about the cost of living allowance, but it doesn't meet the cost of living. So we demand that that cost of living shall be increased so that it meets the cost of living. And we demand that all the African people as well as the people of other races shall be protected when there is unemployment. When the Government started the unemployment insurance, all the people were included. Then the Government said it is too difficult, it costs too much to cover all the African people, so although the African people has paid a thousand pounds into the unemployent insurance fund, they were then put out of it. Today only African people who earn more than 180 a year can belong to the unemployment insurance. But today that fund stands at 62,000,000 and still the African people are not included. So we demand, and this is one of our strong demands, that all people be protected in times of unemployment. And now I come perhaps to the most important of all our demands, that is, that no person in South Africa, be they man or woman, African, Coloured, Indian or European, shall be required to carry a pass of any sort. Shouts of Mayebuye. Somebody shouting Order1 Order.' It is going to come to all of us from this Government, but I think that we are going to say that we, the workers of South Africa, will never carry passes. Shouts of Mayebuye. And that is our demand, we the women of South Africa demand there shall be no more passes. These are our demands. How do Wo get them? We get them first by the biggest demand of all, and that is the vote for all the people in South Africa. Every living person in South Africa who is old enough to think should vote, no matter what the colour of the skin may be. He is entitled to that fundamental human right to share in the Govern-

37 ment of the country. And so we, the women of South Africa, represented here at this meeting, demand these rights for all the people, all the people of Africa. Afrika!" Then will you omit further notes from page 15 to page 16 and at the bottom there, you have Chair Lady. Is that correct? Just read from there? "Chairlady. Thank you frery much. Now ladies we are coming towards the final stages of our Conference which is a very important stage of our Conference. Now, friends, we have come here together because we want to prepare for the Congress of the People. Now, we want to do this in the shortest space of time. We want to elect some delegates to the Congress of the People. delegates from this meeting. We want ten v» We have delegates here from Natalspruit, Boksburg, Benoni, Springs, Sophiatown, Brakpan, Orlando and Kliptown. Now, can you please give us the names of ten people that you would like to represent you at that Congress. Helen Joseph. Seboke - Orlando West No. 2. Makwaye. Mrs. Price - Sophiatown. Mrs. Polio - Brakpan. Mrs. Goi - Benoni. Mary Thlatswayo - Natalspruit. Mrs. Moosa - Brakpan. Pauline Makwe - Germiston. The other names were inaudible. Now friends, we have agreed for ten names, we have twelve, now I think we should allow the twelve to stand because they merely represent all the areas that are represented in this hall. Is that agreed now? Audience : Agreed. " Will you omit the rest of your notes? You hand in your transcript EXHIBIT G. 771? I do. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION. GERHARDUS PAULUS VAN PAPENDORP, duly sworn; ( ) EXAMINED BY THE P.P. ; You have already given evidence? Did you ma^e notes on the 29th May, 1955?

38 Was it at the Trades Hall, Johannesburg? Correct. Was there a meeting there in the Trades Hall? What meeting was it? A meeting of the Federation of South African Women. Did you keep observation there? I did for a short period. You were not allowed to enter the Hall, is that correct? - Correct. Did you makea list of persons who entered the hall? -r- I recorded a number of motor cars I observed at this meeting. Will you go through your list and mention the names of Accused persons? Helen Joseph. Is she one of the Accused? Yes (13). That is all. Is that correct? Correct, Did you also find a leaflet? I did, a pamphlet. A pamphlet announcing the meeting, is that correct? Which you now hand in EXHIBIT G..77*?Be*- me first hand in the notes. You hand in your notes, is that correct, EXHIBIT G. 772? And you hand in the pamphlet, EXHIBIT G. 773? Where did you find the pamphlet? I received this pamphlet from a native female who was dressed in an A.N.C. dress - A.N.C. colours. Where did you get it? Outside the hall, in front of the Trades Hall. By whom is the pamphlet issued, Exhibit G. 773? Federation of South African Women, Box 10876, Johannesburg. Will you just read from the beginning of the pamphlet? "What do women want? Women, this is your chance to speak out. Your needs, your wishes, your demands. This public meeting is being held to give women a chance to put forward their demands for the Freedom Charter. What do women want to

39 make South Africa a better land? What do women demand for their children? You must give the answer. Let you voice be heard. The demands will be discussed at the great Congress of the People, Sunday, 29th May, 2 p.m. Trades Hall, Kerk Street. All women welcome. Prominent women speakers. Bring your demands for the Freedom Charter." NO FURTHER QUESTIONS. CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. BERRANGE : In regard to this meeting of the 29th May, 1955, that is the meeting of the Federation of South African Women, where were you keeping observation? Outside in the street. You never entered the building? At what stage? It was at the early stages, round about 2 o'clock. How long did you remain there? Not very long. What does that mean? I was doing another meeting, I was keeping observation on another meeting at the Duncan Hall. That does not tell me how long you remained inside the Trades Hall? I was never inside the Trades Hall. Didn't you tell me you entered the building? No. I kept observation outside. You never entered the building at any time? No, I did not. Your note in regard to Mrs. Joseph reads in the following manner "T.J , car of Ely Weinburg. VjdLet Weinburg arrived with this car accompanied by Helen Joseph and Mahima Moosa. Enter Hall." That is correct. What you really mean is that they entered the building? Yes, they entered the building. You don't know whether they entered the hall in which the meeting was being held, do you? to say that. No, I will not be able

40 There are a number of halls there and you don't know where they went to? Correct. I understand that on a previous occasion when you gave evidence, you indicated that you had joined the South African Society for Peace and Friendship with the Soviet Union. that correct? I did fill in the form. Is A form in which you applied for membership? What happened as a result of your application? I eventually received certain bulletins. In other words indicating that your application had been accepted? I think we could have made it much more simply \vh if you had just said 'yes* when I asked you whether you joined this organisation. If I were to ask you the question, whether you joined - or how many progressive organisations and movements you have joined, would you understand my question? I will. You know what I mean by progressive organisation or movement? You know by that I mean some organisation or movement that is opposed to the Government, its policies in regard to racial, economic, educational, social or ethical matters - fields. That is what you mean by a progressive organisation? I would be glad if you would be so good if you would indicate to us how many of such organisations you have joined? - I have also filled in forms.. Why do you keep stressing the filling in of forms when I ask you how many you joined? That is the... Do you prefer your terminology to mine? That is the exact position. Did you or did you not join these organisations when you filled in forms? What is the difficulty? T here is no difficulty. I just wanted to make sure. \

41 Make sure that I am not going to trap you? No, I won't try and trap you. Let us be quite clear. You joined the South African Society for Peace and Friendship with the Soviet Union, did you not? Yes, and the Peace Council. You also joined the Peace Council? The South African Peace Council? How long have you been a member of the Special Branch?. I have been a member of the Special Branch as from the 1st November, One of the oldest members? No, not the oldest. It wasn't even called the Special Branch in those days, was it? In those days it was actually called the Special Branch. Now it is called the Security Branch? -e Correct, You have been a member of this Branch since 1951, and a member of the Peace Council since when? Shortly after I commenced work on the Special Branch that I made an attempt i to get into these organisations in order to get information. BY THE COURT : Let us say an successful attempt? Do you know whether your application was accepted and whether you actually became a member of the S.A.P.C.? I did receive a few information bulletins from the Peace Council, it was only a few, about five, I think, then it stopped. BY MR. BERRANGE : Maybe they didn't have any more? I don't know whether perhaps... You know perfectly well that you made an application to join and thereafter you received literature from this organisation which to you indicated that your endeavours to join had been successful? We won't play with words any longer. You joined the organisation. That was you say, shortly after you became a

42 member of the Special Branch? It was in You joined it, I take it, for your own purposes - you joined it in your capacity as a member of the Special Branch. That was your reason for joining it? Correct. And that being so, you naturally made it your duty to ascertain as much as you could about this organisation? You made it your duty to ascertain what its professed or avowed aims and objects were? Correct. You made it your duty to ascertain whether it had any affiliations with any other organisations? You made it your duty therefor^ to find out what the aims and objects were of such other organisations to which it may be affiliated? Correct. BY THE COURT : In the first place one would have to know whether he ascertained that these organisations were affiliated. BY MR. BERRANGE ; I was going to put that as my next question. I put it in Your Worship's order. Did you ascertain whether or not the World Peace Council was affiliated to any other organisations? Either here or elsewhere, anywhere in the world? Prom my information I was of the opinion that the Peace Council of South Africa were affiliated with the World Peace Council. Would you be so good as to tell His Worship what you mean by the word affiliated. may not have understood it? I know I used the word, but you What I mean it is connected with.. Connected with or would you have co-operates with..? It could be co-operates with. No necessarily affiliate? Affiliated in the word ordinarily used. Ordinarily used by you, but possibly in the wrong

43 sense. If I were to suggest to you that there was no affiliation as such between the South African Peace Council and the World Peace Council, would you be prepared to deny it? It all depends what is actually understood by affiliated. Have you, during the course of your investigations, ever seen one single document to indicate that affiliation existed between these two organisations? I did. Can you produce it? - Literature of the World Peace Council were regularly distributed on meetings of the Transvaal Peace Council and South Africa... South African Peace Council. Do y:,u suggest that that indicates affiliation? It indicates.connection or co-operation. Co-operation, that is far better. That is why I want to put it to you again that you would not be prepared to deny a suggestion made by me that there was in fact no affiliation, that there was purely co-operation. If you don't want to answer the question., say so? answer the question correctly. No, I must try my best to I wa3 thinking about this affiliation. I am trying to make sure whether there is a difference between connection, co-operation and affiliation. I want to suggest that there was only co-operation. That is not part of the same movement or same organisation. BY THE COURT : I think the witness is in a difficulty. I don't think he knows clearly... BY MR. BERRANGE :...What is meant by Affiliation, that is why I apologised to him for having used the word and put it into his mouth. That is v am trying to clear it up for him. I want to suggest to * that the tw of the o J re is no affiliation in the sense "ihat the one organisation is part But that they are two completely

44 independent organisations? They are definitely independent organisations. Which have very much the same aims and objects in common? That is correct. x hat is the way we can fairly put it, can't we? - But I will say that it is taking part in the activities of the World Peace Council, the activities are more or less the same,, That is what I am saying, their aims and objects are the same? Correct. But they were two independent organisations? Seeing that you have told us about the aims and objects being the same, perhaps you would now indicate to the Court what you suggest are the avowed aims and objects of the World Peace Council? The objects are to organise peace organisations throughout the world in every country of the world. To work for peace. I know it is difficult foryou. Perhaps I am being somewhat unfair. If I were to road out to you the aims and objects because you have got no documents in front of you? No, I haven't got any documents. You can tell His Worship whether or not you agree with that. Would you... Let us have a little bit of history first. You know a World Peace Conference was held somewhere in 1949, simultaneously in Paris and in Prague. You have read about that and you know about that and it is part of your duties to investigate these things, is it not? In 1949? Yes? I do not know about that. I know about a Cominform resolution adopted for the formation of the World Peace Council.. In? I should have to get the document to refer to that, as to where this resolution was adopted. Are you trying to suggest that the World Peace Council came into existence as a result of a Resolution passed by the Cominform? That is what I suggest.

45 Th t is what you suggest? Let's see how far your suggestions are valid. Do you know that in March, 1949» there was first of all a Cultural and Scientific Conference for T7 orld Peace held in New York. Ever heard of that? That is quite possible. Have you ever heard of it, is my question? all over the world want peace, it is quite possible. People I don't know about it. You don't know about it? But in March... Don't worry about the date. It was in The Conference was held in - on the 25, 26th and 27th March, 1949 in New York and that was a Conference, cultural ^nd scientific men who came together in an endeavour to discuss questions of world peace. Do you r member that? I don't remember it, but it is possible. Well, one of the things that would have been of interest to you of course in all these matters would be who composed the personnel of these conferences. Who were the persons who attended? Yes, but I did not find out about that particular conference in New York. Have you ever heard for instance that the Bishop of Birmingham was one of the persons who supported this conference? Have you hard of that? It is quite possible. Have you ever heard that Abbe Jean Boullier, the Catholic Priest from France was one of the supporters? I cannot remember every... What ab ut Benjamin Britten, the composer? I am reading out the names of persons who are so far divorced from the Cominform as to make it ludicrous to make any suggestion about the Cominform in this. Even Anna Magnani, a film actress from Rome, who I believe is rather well known. She and Lollobrigida I believeare runningneck for neck for her place in the hall of fame? Possibly, sometimes you hear of people...

46 Sibyl ""-homelike, an actress from London, you ho.ve heard of her, haven't you? I have heard. JIs she one of the supporters? Could be. You don't know? I can't swear to that. Somebody that you do know, I am sure, because he came out to this country, he was quite well known out here, Henry Ziegrest, the world famous medical authority from Switzerland, who died a liutle while ago. Do you remember when Dr. Ziegrest came out here? That is when you were a member of the special Branch? Do you remember him? I think it is unfair for a member of the Special Branch to know every person in the whole world. No, I thought you might have read the newspapers about him? Even if I did read in the newspapers, it is difficult to remember all these things, if I didn't... Here are some names that you might remember. What about Sir John Boyd Orr, who was at one time head of the Food and Agricultural Organisations of the United Nations. Did you know that he was one of the supporters of this conference? The Conference in New York? Yes? No, I can give no evidence about that conference May I point out to you that these persons were all later on supporters of the Conference which was held in April 1949? in Paris and Prague when the World Peace Council was formed. Would you dispute that? I cannot dispute it and I cannot say anything else about it. Don't you remember it? You were a member of an organisation which you say co-operated. Did you never read these names in any of the pamphlets or bulletins which were sent to you? No. Never? I am sure many other members of the Peace Council won't know these things that you are asking me now. I see, you read into their minds and you have expert

47 knowledge of what their knowledge is? that. No, I won't have Well then I don't see what right you have to say that? Th-.t was never sent to me in any information bulletins. But I understood you to have agreed already that in your capacity as a member of the Special Branch, one of your functions is to ascertain the aims and objects, the avowed aims and objects of these organisations, and another function would of course be to ascertain who supported these organisations, would it not? In South Africa, yes. And overseas, because you were very interested in the World Peace Council, and it was you who quite voluntarily had to introduce the little touch about the Cominform that I questioned you a little while ago? Correct. I am asking you, if you were so interested in the World Peace Council as to give us that information, surely you made some endeavour to ascertain who were the supporters of the World Peace Council? Did you not? And the names I have read to you you have never heard of as being supporters of the World Peace Council, although you don't deny it? No, I don't deny it. I know certain supporters of the,)7 orld Peace Council, Professor Juliet Curry... Picking out all the leftists, you are, are you? Now I want to pick out a few of the rightists? I don't think you will find ahy rightists in it,really. What the West call 'peace* you call 'warmongers'. Let-me give you some names that you might remember. What about Pastor Niemoller, of Germany. Ever heard of him? I did hear of him. He was a member, wasn't he, of the World Peace Council? It is possible, I am afraid I cannot answer these questions. Well, you have given me some names, such )as Professor Jioliet Curie. Now let us have some other names. Can you say

48 whether Pastor Niemoller was a member? I cannot say. Can you say whether Pietro Neni, Member of Parliament, Italy, was a member. You have heard about Neni, I am sure? I did hear about the name. Was he a member? I cannot say. You can't say. Lady Jessie Street, of Australia? It is possible. You don't know. I am just trying to find some name that will ring a bell with you, which is not altogether on the left. Perhaps this one will ring a bell with you. How about Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth of Belgium. Is she a supporter of the World Peace Council? I cannot say. You have hever heard of that in your investigations as a member of the Special Branch? I did not investigate to that extent to be able to give evidence on it. the name. What about Thomas Mann. Heard of him? I have heard Is he a member? Sir Hugh Casson? I cannot say. I am trying to get some name that will ring a bell with you. Is he a supporter? Sir Hugh Casson? I cannot say whether these people are... I will just try one more, perhaps on the off chance we may have some luck. What about Bertram Russel? Is he a supporter? I can't say. Who do you say were supporters of the World Peace Council? I have already mentioned... I suppose you will tell us Stalin and Tito. Who do you suggest were members. Who did you find out to be supporters of members in your investigations? I never investigated the members, of the World Peace Council. It was not part of my duty. To do what? To investigate the members of the World,Peace Council.

49 Weren't you interested in ascertaining who comprised and who supported the - who founded these organisations? Wasn't that of interest to you in the course of your duties? Yes, but I did not have the means of investigations - it was not part of my duty to investigate those overseas. But you first mentioned the name of a very well known scientist of overseas, Professor Joliet Curie, you mentioned that, did you not? I did. I tried to find some names that you might recognise as being supporters, but the only one I have heard from you so far was Professor Joliet Curie and Mr. van Papendorp? Let us return to the local scene then. Professor Gillman, a supporter of the South African Peace Council? Professor Blekesley? Mrs. McPherson, the former Mayor of Johannesburg? And so we can go on. Let us change to the aims and objects once again. I was side tracked. I was dealing with that when I am afraid You will agreed that the avowed aims and objects are as follows ; That the Council stood for the peaceful co-existence of all countries, irrespective of their political systems or political structure, is that not so? That is one of their avowed aims and objects? The Council, which Council? The World Peace Council? Council if you like it. I have heard of that. And the South African Peace 7. Is that one of their aims and objects? 'That do you say about it. Is that one of their avowed aims and objects, do you agree? Do you understand what I mean by the word 'avowed*. Whether they are expressed? Peaceful co-existence, yes, but I cannot say all political systems. Between all nations, but I cannot say between all political systems. Between all nations, irrespective of their political

50 systems? That I can't give evidence about. You can't? Was it one of their avowed aims and objects to call a halt for the arms race? Yes, that is correct. To have disarmament, to ban atomic weapons? Correct. And to put atomic energy to peaceful purposes? And did the World Council for Peace call for the settlement of disputes by negotiations? Correct. Did it stand for the observance of the Charter of the United Nations? And it called for cultural and commercial relationships between all countries on an equal footing? And it opposed all forms of racial discrimination, because they said that this was a danger to peace? Correct. In fact you will agree with me, that so far as these aims and objects were concerned, that they are aims and objects which all right thinking people, decent people, should endeavour to achieve? Do you want war? You? Yes, to a certain extent. Then you don't agree with me? You prefer war to negotiation? No, I don't prefer war. What is 'to a certain extent'. Perhaps I am being unfair in misunderstanding you. What do you say is to a certain extent? My opinion is that they don't always practice what they preach. I am not asking you whether they practice what they preach. I am asking you, whether you personally, and I take it all decent people, would subscribe to these aims and objects? The ones I have read out to you? Whether they practice or preach them is another matter? I cannot say that because there are thousands of decent people in this country who do not subscribe to these aims and objects. Would you subscribe to these aims and objects? I personally can. You made use of an expression a moment ago in regard to

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