30 Jy weet nie hoeveel myl nie? All right it. E.A. Watkins,

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1 770 E.A. Watkins. Firearms and clothing and all so on, yes. \Vhere are these things kept at night Mr. Watkins, are they locked up or..? --- Locked up. Pardon? --- The firearms particularly locked up in a steel cabinet, all wired and burglar proofed, and the entire shop is burglar proofed. CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. CHASKELSON: What other goods do Saffr1x keep besides firearms? --- Clothing. What else? --- Blankets and all sorts of things. 10 Clothing, blankets? --- Trunks, cabinet trunks camping equipment s. Trucks did you say? Trunks. Trunks? --- Trunks, yes that is right. Steel trunks, camping equipment? --- Camping equipment, everything yes. It carries a wide range of goods? --- Goods, yes. HIS LORDSHIP: Mr. Chaskelson I assume jhat Mr. Joffe, you know whether Mr. Joffe will cross examine or not in this particular instance, or must I ask him? 20 MR. CHASKELSON: My Lord, I will advise My Lord, if Mr. Joffe is going to cross examine. HIS lordship: Will you? MR. CHASKELSON: My Lord I can explain to your Lordship Mr. Joffe's absence, but if I may do it at the adjournment I will give Your Lordship a full explanation ~s to why he is not here at the moment. HIS lordship: Yes, certainly. MR. CHASKELSON: There is a very good reason. HIS LORDSHIP: I merely want to be sure that he is 30 not debarging cross examination if he wishes. MR. CHASKELSON: As Your Lordship pleases. / HIS

2 E.A. Watkins, HIS LORDSHIP: You assure me on that point. MR. CHASKELSON: To the best of my knowledge he certainly has no questions to put to the previous witness and the one before, I'll explain to Your Lordship at the adjournment, there is a reason for this My Lord. It is a matter of urgent personal business and rather than interrupt the Court, I took it on myself to tell Mr. Joffe simply to go and I said that I would attend to everything. 10 HIS LORDSHIP: Yes, 20 SAMSON RADEBE. be~dig, verklaar: (getolk) ONDERSOEK DEUR MNR. MASTERS: Jy is 'n taxi bestuurder? --- Ja. En jy bestuur die kar vir iemand anders n~? --- Ja. Wie is die eienaar van die motorkar? --- Ernest Ndlovu. Jy onthou jy het na die polisie self gegaan en n verklaring gemaak? --- Ja~ Jy het gegaan omdat iets gebeur het? --- Ja. Goed nou ek wil h~ by moet ons vertel van daardie wat gebeur het, en wat by vir die polisie ges~ het. Nou waar staan jy gewoonlik by jou taxi, is dit daar by Maledi? --- U Edele ek werk tussen Nancefield en Maledi. Waar is Maledi, is dit naby Orlando of waar? -- Nee dit is ver weg van Orlando, ver weg. 30 Jy weet nie hoeveel myl nie? All right it doesn't mattero Hy s~ dit is ver weg? --- Dit is / ver

3 790 Samson Radebe. ver weg o ek weet nie hoeveel myl dit is nie o Nou wat het nou gebeur, vertel ons nou van die ding? Ek was by die taxi rank van Maledi, dit was omtrent 8 uur in die aand was my kar geparkeer. Ja? Ek het binne in die kar gesito Ja? Toe het daar twee jong nature lie by my gekom. Ja? --- Een het 'n jas aangehad en 'n ander het 'n staal hoed opgehad. Een van hierdie staal helmets 10 wat hulle in die myne gebruik. Die een met die staal hoed s~ toe vir my wat sal jou fooie wees om ons te neem na White City, ek het hom ges~ 10/-. MR. CHASKELSON: Your Lordship I am not sure at this stage how the relevance of a statement made by a first person to this person enters into the picture, perhaps my learned friend can assist us. MR. MASTERS: My Lord, all hear-say is not inadc1ssible this is merely the analysis to give the setting of the case my Lord. 20 It's an analysis. Otherwise His Lordship won't be able to understand the evidence unless he gives an analysis. MR. CHASKELSON: I still don't know what this witness is going to say, or what words may come out. If my learned friend could take us a little bit further into his confidence, we can know. Obviously if there is nothing prejudicial to the accused I don't mind what anybody says, if this witness mayor may not come out with something prcjudicial, subjeot to that I would certainly object to it. 30 MR. MASTERS: May we leave it subject to that then My Lord, if Your Lordship feels at any stage that this should be deleted then it can be deleted. My Lord, / your

4 80. Samson Radebe. Your Lordship will not understand the witnesses evidence if he can't glve hls evidence. Unless he gives the whole analysis. MR. CHASKELSON: That may be so My Lord, but if the state case depends on hear-say, then it is unfortunate for the State~ I don't know why a discussion between certain people should ever be admitted against an accused person, who was not present at the time and who didn't partic'': pate in the discussion. If my learned friend cantt lead 10 this witness without leading that discussion then I suggesto~ HIS LORDSHIP: It is very often of course accepted that a part of the - as an explanation of the occasion on which something occurred, a conversation is lead purely explanatory of the occasion itself, and in that sense possibly part of the 'rae gesti'. I don't know whether this is exactly how I understand Mr. Masters' -, \ explanation to be at the moment.. MR. CHASKELSON: Well My Lord, that is all that I wish to 20 submit at ' this stage, because there will be evidence later that these people were part of the group that had the meeting and therefore it is a common purpose. But I don't want to argue that My Lord. This witness is giving a larrative r My learned friend seems to think that all hear-say is inadmissible, which is quite wrong with respect, My Lordo then it is admissible. If it is part of the analysis I don't know if my learned friend wants to see the authority for this, but on the other hand My Lord, if Your Lordship finds at any stage that 30 certain of the evidence shouldn't have been admitted then it can be deleted e But I make it clear now that II'm....

5 8i.. Samson Radebe. I ' m not relying on this commentation as proof of any factso HIS LORDSHIP: I think you should proceed Mr. Masters. Anything to add Mr. Chaskelsono MR. CHASKELSON: No My Lord, I have made my objection and there doesn' t seem anything further to say 0 IN CHIEF (CONT.): With that a girl passed, a girl that I knew and I called this girl, I wanted to speak to her, this girl came - My Lord I think there is a 10 misunderstanding between the witness and myself, the man wearing the overcoat was the same man wearing the steel helmet. There were two~ when this girl came up to the car she knew the man in the overcoat and the steel helmet. The firl said to him - but why do you go about dressed like this wearing this overcoat with a steel helmet. We don't want all this. Did she mention the name? Yes, she mentioned the name o What naem? --- Dennis, was the name mentioned. MR. CHASKELSON: My Lord, I think I need hardly say 20 that my objection to the hear-say extends towards what the girl may say as well. MR. MASTERS ; My Lord, Dennis is one of the people whose names were mentioned in the schedule to the inditement. The witness will say he didn't know the name of the man, and here he is given the name Dennis, what weight will be attached to that may well imagine My Lord. MR. CHASKELSON: My Lord, I don't know if Your Lordship requires me to develop my argument, but the submission to Your Lordship is this, that fundamentally anything 30 said by some third person at the time when the accused are not present and it is not suggested that this woman / is

6 820 Samson Radebe. is a co-conspirator or party to anything, simply the use of the word Dennis by some third person certainly can't be used in evidence against him. If my learned friend want to call the woman to eive evidence to say that she knows him, that person called Dennis and that she recognized him that is one thing. Whatever inference Your Lordship might want to draw from that I might at that stage have other objections. HIS LORDSHIP: Mr. Masters at present it seems to me that 10 is so. MR. MASTERS-: All right My Lord, it is very wide a point, I am prepared to leave it. HIS LORDSHIP: Then are you prepared to have this deleted? MR. MASTERS: As Your Lordship pleases. HIS LORDSHIP: A deletion will be made of this part of the conversation, as the words spoken by the girl. IN CHIEF (CONT.): They then agreed that I should take them to White City for a fare of 10/-. Then this person 20 said all right you are now under arrest, here are the soldiers they have surrounded your car. When I then looked round I saw that many people had surrounded my car. He called these men and told them to get into the car and he said that he would drive the car personally, and I had to sit in the back seat, and the others had to keep guard over me. He got in and we drove off. We called at a garage, thenihe driver whom I knew then as Dennis, said that he was not going through the busy part of the City, he was going through the outskirts 30 and going to the B.P. Garage and take petrol there. We got to this garage and there 10/- worth of petrol was / taken

7 Samson Radebe. taken. From there we went to Maledi~ We went there to a residential area and there the car stopped in the street in front of a house u Some of the people who were in the car got out others remained in the car. They disappeared behind the house to another yard My Lord. They later came back carrying many empty bottles. Some of thewe bottles were in a carton, others were carried by hand, open. There were some gallons of petrol also. The petrol was carried in one gallon tins~ All this was 10 put into the car. The people who were guarding over me, sitting with me in the back seat had said to me - 'brother don't be scared, we are going to fight'. Then the man who had taken the car over, Dennis, got into the car and we drove off. We went to Orlando behind a school there. There is a small koppie there with big stones o Just a moment perhaps we can have a look at this photograph - have a look at photograph Exh. G, just ask him if he can identify that area, I don't want a specified spot. Does he see the school there 20 HIS LORDSHIP: Just a second I'm looking for this particular photo? MR. MASTERS: I think it is Exh. G My Lord, or E I'm sorry, Exh. E. There isthe key Exh. F. IN CHIEF (CONT.): On the photograph I have there is a D with an arrow, just above that you can see there are some trees, he shows that as the spot. Trees and stones are there and that is the koppie. HIS LORDSHIP: Let him mark it on my copy please? This is the one attached to the particulars. 3 0 MR. MASTERS: Yes, My Lord, E. IN CHIE~ (CONT.): He has made a cross on it and / he

8 Samson Radebe. he says it covers the area there My Lord, that is circled with a peno HIS LORDSHIP: I'm trying to see where it is o 0, is dit daardie koppie, 0 ek sien ja. HOOFGETUIENIS (VERV.): Hy s~ dit is In plek agter die skool? --- Agter die skool ja. Goed wat het daar gebeur nou, toe jy daar kom? Daar loop ook In spoorweg, die spoorweg treine loop daarlangs. 10 Ja? Die Malamkumzi stasie is nie ver daarvandaan af nie, ons het afgeklim by Malamlakumzi stasie, spoorweg stasie, en van naar het ons geloop na die koppie. Ja? My Lord the station is marked on the key, if Your Lordship can find it. HIS LORDSHIP: Yes. MR. MASTERS: It is marked on the photograph. HIS LORDSHIP: Yes, live got the photo for the moment before me. ~ffi. MASTERS: Have you got the key? 20 HIS LORDSHIP: Find the key? J actually indicates the direction of - apparently of the railway station, according to the key, is that correct. MR. MASTERS: No, I'm sorry My Lord, it is not actually on the photograph, I was wrong. It shows the direction. HOOF GETUIENIS (VERV.): Ja, jy s~ jy het geloop van die stasie na die punt wat jy afgemerk het n~? --- Ja. En wat van hierdie bottels on goed? --- Dit was saam gene em. Deur wie, deur die ander? --- My wagte het daarvan 30 gedra want die bestuurder het nie daar afgeklim nie, hy is weg verder met die karl / BY.

9 Samson Rqdebe. --- By die kruis. Hy is weg mgt jou kar? --- Ja. Ja, en JY s~ die punt daar n~, wat jy - die kruis? Ja? --- Op pad na die koppie het hulle weer aan my ges~ - 'kyk broer. moet nie bang wees nie, ons gaan baklei, ons veg - ons gaan veg oor ons land. Toe ons d~ar b~ punt X aan kom b die koppie toe was daar 'n meni te me~. Wat was hulle vreemde mense of? --- Daar was 10 meesal jong naturelle daar, daar was ook volgroeides. 20 Maar ek het nie die geleentheid gehad om hulle almal te r:: a:j sien en ek het hulle ook nie nou keurig dopgehou nie. Die plek is dit ver van die ligte af of is lig naby? --- Nee daar is geen lig daar nie. Daardie ~lek is heeltemaal in die donkerte Ja. En al die mense was bymekaar daar in die donker? Ja, gaan aan? --- Die bottels was daar langs die klippe neergesit asook die gelling blikke paraffin, - petrol. Toe ons daar aankom, toe was daar alreeds - was daar bottels gewees, daar was blikke gewees en daar was baie ysters gewees. ysters. Daar was allerhande voorwerpe Daar was lang ysters, daar was korter yesters daar was skerpgemaakte ysters. ~at er het die bestuurder Dennis teruggekom saam met andere, hy het net daar by die groep aangekom sonder my kar, ek het die kar nie gesien nie:j Toe was daar gepraat en sommige he beswaar gemaak en ges~ ons kan nie praat as ons leier nie hier is nie. Die leier was of in Vereenig1ng - dit 30 was Vereeniging of Evaton, dit is in daardie rigting in elk geval waar die leier was. Dennis is toe weer weg, / by' e.

10 86 0 Samson Radebe o by het toe met die leier teruggekomo Toe het die leier gekom en by he"li uaardle groep mense toegespreek o Weet jy sy naam is sy naam genoem daar? --- Nee, ek het nie sy na~ gehoor nie o Ja, wat het hulle ges~ daar? --- Hy het ges~ - julie weet waarom ons hier is en ons moet nou begin met die werk, ons moet nou veg. ons begin om te baklei. toe het sommige weer ges~ Sommige het gevra hoe gaan Daar was nog In ruk gepraat, dit is nou te laat ons kan nie 10 nou gaan baklei nie, ons sal moet uitstel tot mere. Daar was ges~ Hulle p het hulle gese wat hulle moet doen? dat die kragstasie moet opgeblaas word, en py mo~t v. rde ~~~e ~t~ro~l aan die brand gesteek word. Ja? --- Vandaar m08t hulle na die stad kom, ::::.-- Johannesbu~g toe gevra nou hoe gaan ns in die dorp kom. Anders hot weer voorgeste] ons moet na o ~=-~.~isie~tasie aan on~moet die oorneem en die polisie voertuie - dorp toe. die trokke kry, en daarmee ingaan In die dorp moet geboue aan die brand gesteek 20 word, daar moet by ammunisie winkels - waar vuurwapens en "- ammunisie aangehou word, daar moet ingebreek word, 30 1\1 sodat ons kon die gewere en die ammunisie bekom, dat ons wapens het om mee te baklei~ - Toe daardie voorstelle kom het andere ges~ - dit is te laat ons moet die werk mere doen. - Di t was toe ooreengekom dat die werk die volgende dag sou gedoen ewees het. Toe het andere --- gevra en nou wat van die eienaar van die motor, wat gaan ons met hom maak, sommige hat ges~ -- ons kan hom nie laat gaan nie, want by sal na die polisie gaan en die Ē.olisie roep. Sommige het ges~ laat ons ho~nhou, hom gaan to omaak, en ons hou hom aan tot die werk van /ons

11 Samson Radebe. ons afgehandel is dan salons hom laat gaan. [Toe het daar sommige ges~ kan dit nie doon nie. Sommige het toe weer ges~ want ons sal vir hom sorge - maar hoe gaan julie hom aanhou, julie sal in bewaring gehou word. Andere het - nee moet hom nie doodmaak nie Toe wil hulle weet waar ek Toe het andere weer voorgestel by ' n sekere persoon, maar die naam het ek nie gehoor nie, ek moet daar aangehou word. persoon vorentoe gekom en ges~ Toe het die - goed, ek sal hom oorneem, 10 en hom huistoe neem Wie is die persoon, ken hy die persoon? --- Dit was die eerste maal dat ek hom toe daardie dag gesien het, hy is hier in die Hof nou. Which one, that one? --- Beskuldigde Nr. 4. En by watter naam ken jy hom? --- Ek het gehoor hulle noem hom Sepo. SY EDELE: Enige ander naam of is dit al? Seaboy - Seapoy? - -- Sepo. Sepo? --- Ja, u Edele. 20 HOOF GETUIENIS (VERV.): Enige ander naam of is dit? --- U Edele, ek het later gehoor toe ons by Marshallplein was ges~ Nee, los dit maar. Hy het voorgekom en hy het hy sal jou in bewaring hou, is dit reg? --- Ja. gestem, toe s~ Goed, wat het nou gebeur? --- Toe het almal saam hulle maar nou moet julie mense aanstel wat oor hom die wag sal hou, in daardie huis. bcstuurder was daar, ook andere, wat nie nou in die hof is nie. Toe was ek geneem na die huis van Die kar be skuldigde Nr. 4. l Te~l ons nog daar in die koppiet jie 30 was, toe was - die andere was toe a1 weg van die koppie af, toe kom b8skuldigde Nr. 1 na

12 88. Samson Radebe. Wag In bietjie laat ek net seker maak, staan net op? --- Ja. Hy was daar toe hull gepraat het dat ek moet by beskuldigde Nr. 4 se huis aangehou word. Die man wat my kar toe bestuur het, het vir my ges~ - moenie bang wees oor jou kar nie, ek kyk agter jou kar, jou kar sal veilig weese Die eerste drywer en andere sou my nou vat na beskuldigde Nr. 4 se huis toe, beskuldigde Nr. 1 sou my kar daarvandaan af bestuur het. Toe ons by die huis aangekom het waar ek toe moes heen 10 geneem word, ~oe kom beskuldigde Nr. 1 weer daar. Toe S~ by - jou kar is veilig, ek het die kar goed geparkeer daar sal niks oor die kar kom nie, wees tevrede. Hy is toe weg. Ek hat toe daar gebly by die huis van beskuldigde Nr. 4, Sepoo Was daar ander daar ook? --- Ja, ek dink ek was aangehou deur sewe mense het oor my wag gehou. Ek het ook beskuldigde Nr. 4 se broer, by was 'n ouer man as 4, daar by die huis gekry. Hy het niks gepraat nie. Die ander het hom gegroet 80 het beskuldigde Nr Daar het ons geslaap terwyl ek in bewaring was. Hulle het baie met my gepraat en ges~ ek moenie bang wees nie. Hulle sal vir my sorgo Hulle het ook aan my ges~ dat ons die volgende dag weer sou teruggaan na die koppie, daar waar die bome was. En hoe laat was dit toe jy by die huis van Nr. 4 gekom het, daardie aand, was dit baie laat? --- Dit was laat in die nag, ek weet nie hoe laat op die horlos1e dit kon gewees het nie. Het jy daardie nag daar geslaap in die huis? Ek het die nag daar geslaap. Jy s~ mot sewe ander wagte? --- Ek moes tussen / die

13 Samson Radebe. die wagte slaapc Jy s~ daar was sewe ander bantoes wat daar was? -- Sewe ander, het oor my wag gehouo Goed, nou wat vanme volgende m8re nou? --- Die 10 volgende dag toe het ons daar gesit toe begin hulle, s~ hulle wil nou die wapens in gereedheid bringo Die bestuurder van my kar Dennis het dit genoem, daar was ook andere wat dit genoem het, dat sommige van die goed wat hulle nodig het om die wapens te maak moet nog in die dorp gekoop word, dit is in Johannesburg e Rulle het toe voorgestel dat Sepo, beskuldi de Nr. 4 sou e~tuur word om die goed te koop. Ek het hom later gesien terug kom, by _het 'yennisballe gehad en by het ook races' bring. En ek het hom ook gesien 'ball -- Ball bearings ja. Ja wat was in die bottels, dit is tennis balls, ball bearings, en wat was in die bottels~ 20 vuurhoutjies. Permanganate of Potash. vuurhoutjies. Ja, en wat nog? --- Nog gliserien, en ook Baie vuurhoutjies of wat? --- Ja, daar was baie In die dosies of hoe was dit? --- Hulle was nog in pakkies opgemaak, dit was nie los boksies nie, maar ek kan nie aan die Hof s~ hoeveel daar was nieo Maar jy s~ daar was baie? Ja daar was baie. Beskuldigde 4, Sepo, het laat teruggekom van die dorp af, ek het toe gesien dat hulle het die tennisballe geneem en ronde gaatjies in die tennisballe gesny. 30 het gesien dat hulle het vuurhoutjic koppe afgesny, daar was baie gesny~ Toe het hulle ges~ die ander sal later Ek / gedoen \

14 Damson Radebe. gedoen word in die koppiee Baie gevat? --- Baie vuurhoutjie - baie koppe was afgesny. Ja, jy s~ hulle het die tennisballs gesny en wat het hulle daarbinne gesit, die koppie van die vuurhoutjies? Toe het hulle - nee die mengsel het ek nie gesien nie, maar hulle het ges~ die sou hulle doen in die koppie. 0, jy het nie gesien nie o SY EDELE: Was koppie die plek - die bultjie, wat bedoel 10 by by koppie? Dit is waar ons die vorige aand was. Wat het jy nog daar gesien? --- Daar is toe weer baie bottels uitgehaal, sommige het olie bevat, daar was blikke gellings petrol, daar was die olie en die petrol gemeng en dit was toe goed geskud. En die bottels hot almal wat die petrol en olie bevat het, 'n lap aan die buitekant om was daaraan vasgebind o KYk 'n bietjie na hierdie bottel, dit is Bew. 1, U Edele. Jy praat van In lappie, was die lappie so om die bottel? --- Ja, net soos hierdie bottel nou voor die 20 Hof is. Dam het hulle soortgelyke bottels daar gehad? Ja, daar was van hierdie bottels, soortgelykffi soos hierdie een voor die Hof, daar wa~ ook andere, groot lang bottels. Ja? --- Ek dink hulle het aan die goed gewerk tot omtrent agtuur die aand, toe is hulle daarvandaan af terug na die koppie toe waar ons die vorige aand gewees het. Nou voor ons daar kom, jy het gepraat van Nr. 4 beskuldigde wat daar by die huis was, daardie dag, het 30 jy gepraat van Nr. 4? --- Ja. Het jy enige een van die ander beskuldigdes daar \ / gesien.,

15 Samson Radebe. gesien of nie? --- Ek het daar - beskuldigde 4 was daar, sy ouer broer was daar en beskuldigde 1 het ook daar gekom. Wanneer het by daar gekom? --- Hy was daar die oggend, by was weer deur die dag daar, ek het hom nie die aand weer daar gesien nie, ek het hom weer gesien die aand by die koppie. Ja. By die huis het jy hom iets sien doen daar? Hy het nie baie lank die dag daar gebly nie, maar hy 10 het gehelp vuurhoutjie koppe afsny Ja. Nou is ons by die aand. Omtrent hoe laat is julie van die huis af weg dan? --- Omtrent 8 uur die aand 8ers. was na donkero Dit was al donker was dit of wat? --- Ja, dit Nou wie is almal saam, jy en wie? --- Daar was beskuldigde 4, myself en die ander wagte wat oor my wag gehou het, ons is terug toe na die koppie. Toe ons by die koppie aankom toe was daar weer baie ander 20 naturelle daar. Ons het daar gewag, ons het gewag vir andere om nog te kom wat ook gekom het, na die andere aangekom het het daar een, hy was In kort dik persoon, opgestaan en ges~. Wat is sy naam weet jy nie? naam gehoor as Lushodi. Hy het toe die klomp daar toegespreek. Ek het later die Wat het by nou weer ges~ daar? Hy het ges~ ons moet nou begin, ons noemie wag tot dit laat is nie. Wat moot hulle doen? --- Daar is ges~ 30 moet in~e dorp inkom, dit is in die stad hier, dat ons Johannesburg, hier moet geboue vernietig word, hulle / moet

16 92l' Samson Radebe moet afgebrand word, die witmense moet aangeval word o By het die klomp wat daar gewoes het, het hy in groepe verdeel, en elke groep het hy weggo.leem en met hulle aileen gepraat. Ek het nie gehoor wat het hy aan die groepe ges~ nie o Ja, maar was jy in! n C:.'o r- p? --- Ek was een van die heel laaste groepe. gepraat het is toe weg. Wat het hy vir jou groep ges~? Elke groep wat hy klaar mee gaan dit baklei word en ons gaan nou stad toe. --- Toe s@ hy, nou Hy het toe een daar aangestel as die groep leier, hy het toe sien ook aan hom ges~, jy moet/dat nie een van hulle weghardloop nie, of terugdraai. Die een wat terugdraai of weghardloop moet doodgemaak word. Wie was die leier van jou groep? --- Hulle was alma I vir my vreemde mense, ek hot hulle nie geken nie. Ek het ook nie my groep-ieier se naam gehoor nie. s~ by - kyk, die een van julie wat terugkom en niks gedoen het nie, hy sal 'n beskuldigde weese gaan iets doen in die stade watse transport sal ons h~, wat ons opgedeel het het ges~, Toe l\ JulIe moot Toe het andere gevra maar waarmee gaan ons in, die man julie gaan nou na Malamlakumzi stasie, en van daar gaan julie met In trein. Hy het toe ook ges~ soos wat die trein langs die perron intrek, dan moet ons vanaf die verkeerde kant, hardloop en in die trein inklim, vanaf die verkeerde kant. wat aan~e Daar is som"" ige groep deler gevra het, gaan jy dan nie in nie, toe s~ hy by sal 'n kar - by kom, hy sal sommer onige kar met geweld neem, en dan kom hy~ na die stasie. die stasie is daar In sloot. Ek mgen dit is 'n watersloot wat daar gegrawe is. Ons is toe Toe ons by die stasie kom, regoor Ons h0t instruksies gekry / om

17 93. Samson Radebe. om daar in die sloot te skuil, ons moes daar gele het. Terwyl ons daar gele het, toe het die laaste trein wat inkom stad toe daardie aand, die stasie binnegekomo Die trein het gekom vanaf Orlando na Johannesburg. Toe ons leier, hier kom die trein, staan OP e Toe die trein intrek by die perron toe hardloop ons almal na die trein toe om die trein te bestyg vanaf die verkeerde kant. Ons leier was agter ons, en ons was deur hom gedryf. Toe ons by die trein kom het baie ingeklim, en 10 daar was myself en andere wat daar omgespring hot en weggehardloop het. SY EDELE: Myself en andere? --- Myself en andere, U Edole. HOOF GETUIENIS (VERV. ): Ek is toe oor die spoor en 20 White City toe, huis-toe e Is dit ver? --- Dit was baie ver, van my huis af. Het jy geloop met die voet? --- Ja, ek moes met die voet loop tot ok by die huis gekom hat. ~Ja? aangekom. Ek het omtrent 2 uur, 2 VID. by die huis Toe ek by die huis kom toe staan my kar daar. Maar ek het geen navrae gedoen omtrent die kar nie, toe het hulle In :r.:~l?.rort I~aar aak omtrent die kar het jy gegaan, het jy na die polisiestasie toe gegaan of waar het jy gegaan? --- Die volgende more is ek toe terug na Orlando polisiestasie. - En daar het jy In verklaring gemaak? Daar hot ek In soortgelyk~erklaring gemaak as wat ek nou in my getuienis afl~., 30 kwaad ja~,j Was jy baie kwaad oor jou kar? --- Ek was Kan jy die kar vir ons beskrywe, watter soort / kar I -

18 940 Samson Radebe. kar was dit? --- Dit was In Chev o kar, 1956 model& Nou net In bietjie teruggaan, die aand van die tweede vergadering, het jy van die beskuldigdes daar gesien daardie aand? --- Ja, beskuldigde 1 was daar, asook beskuldigde 4, Sepo. Die under het ek nie daar opgemerk nie o Nou jy het ons vertel van die tennis balls en die bottels by die huis van Nr. 4? --- Jao Wat het van hulle geword? --- Ek was nie by nie, 10 ek weet nie wat het hulle verder daarmee gedoen nie. Ons het die goed alles daar bymekaar gesit. Daar was ook baie daar toe ons daar gekom het met wat ons gehad het. By die vergadering? --- By die vergadering. Dit is toe daar oenkant gesit tussen die klippe. En toe die vergadering opgedeel is, wat het van die goed geword? --- Die goed is toe uitgedeel aan die groepe en elke groep is met In hoevcelheid daarvan weg, toe ek sien, toe is daar niks meer van die goed nie. 20 Nou afgosicn van hierdie tennis balls en bottels, is daar nog ander goed uitgedeel? --- Ja. Ek het gesicn die ysters wat uitgegee was, sommige is van hierdie bouversterking ysters, re- inforcements, Stukke daarvan is uitgedeel. Het jy nog ander wapens daar gesien, wat die mense gehad heto Het jy gesien of Nr. 1 bcskuldigde enige iets in sy hand gehad het? --- Nee, ek het hom nie gesien met enige gevaarlike wapens nie. Jy het vir ons vertel die eerste aand, die 30 eerste vergadering nou, jy het ges iamand het ges~ dat huise moet afgebrand word? en geboue en so aan, / is

19 950 ~~on Radebe o is daar gepraat van mense? --- Jao Dit was ges~ die geboue moet afgebrand word, opgeblaas word, en die blankes moet doodgemaak word o MR. CHASKEL~: My Lord, there is a lot of information in this witnesses evidence on which I have no instructions. It seems My Lord, whatever happens, my cross examination may have to be a very lengthy one. It may My Lord, in the long run, save time if I could take full instructions from the accused, particular Nos. 1 and 4, who are 10 referred to by this witness, before I start with my cross examination. Your Lordship appreciates that one doesn' t have the advantage of a Preparatory Examination, from which one can take instructions. From the particulars I realise that Nos. 1 and 4 will be implicated in t~reat to this witness, theft of his car and matters such as that a I really cannot deal with that, which is really the substantial part of his evidence, without instructions. My Lord, I don't know what procedure to adopt, I ' m as anxious as my l earned friend 20 to avoid a delay in this case, but I ' m also anxious to cross examine to the best of my abillties g What I would like to suggest My Lord, is that I be given the afternoon to consult f~lly on this matter, and to proceed tomorrow with the cross examination. One doesn' t see how any prejudice can be done to the State through this, and a procedure such as that will certainly avoid any prejudice to the accused, that I will be able to go through the statement and discuss matters with them, and to cross examine very fully. I ask Your Lordship 30 for that adjournment. It seems a small thing Your Lordship, it i8 merely two houts, to enable us to / equipo

20 Samson Radebe. equip ourselves to deal properly with this witness, know what the accused are going to tell me, My Lord, I don ' t and I don1t know how long my cross examination will be o MR. MASTERS: My Lord, the Legislator had decided, that in these cases, it is desirable for many reasons that a summary trial should take place o My Lord I have no doubt that it does bring great hardship to Defence, but in this case My Lord, the State has been, I submit, patient for quite a long period. The accused were 10 already in Court three weeks ago. My learned friend or his junior represented th. accused some two months ago. My learned friend has confessions, he has statements he has had ample opportunity to consult with the accused. With all respect My Lord, it is time the accused took Counsel into their confidence and My Lord the State strenuously opposes any further adjournment and strenuously suggests that now the witness has given evidence and exposed himself, that he should be cross examined without any delay at all~ My Lord with respect, 20 that I and 4 were either there, or they were not there. My learned f r i end can start the cross examination straight away on that basise He has got instructions from the accused, either they were at these meetings or they weren' t. And I strongly object to any further postponements in this matter My Lord o Otherwise the whole purpose of the summary trial has been defeated and that was the aim of the Legislator. My Lord, my learned friend had ample opportunity, with respect, they had the whole weekend, they had all last week and we can' t 30 have further postponements e HIS LORDSHIP: Mre Chaskelson, it seems to me that the /inditement

21 970 Samson Radebe. inditement has its focal points in some ways, it certainly has two of the focal points, the two gatherings on the 8th and the 9th, and I would have assumed that you would have taken instructions on those two gatherings of what occurred there, from your clients by now. I assume you may have your difficulties on the other hand it seems to me there has been time to have some consultations on that particular point. MR. CHASKELSON: Well may I put it to Your Lordship 10 this way, the difficulty, the main difficulty that I have with this witnesses evidence, are the events wbbh he described, of the day. As it were he's being overpowered, his motor vehicle stolen, his being kept in protective custody or whatever it may be, My Lord, and exactly what place during the day was the - the events of the day. There is no allegation in the particulars that a person called Samson Radebe, as far as I know, doesn't occur anywhere in the particulars, and I have no instructions in regard to Samson Radebe at all. There 20 is nothing to suggest that somebody was arrested which will be part of the State Case, that somebody was - I'm not saying my learned friend has to put it in but I'm trying to let Your Lordship appreciate my difficulty, that the bulk of this witnesses evidence relates to his being overpowered, his being arrested, his being taken to a particular place, discussions which took place at that house, and so on. HIS LORDSHIP: You see Mr. Chaskelson, it seems to me that the crux of the matter is,what did these accused 30 do on that particular night, on that particular point. I suppose you must be informed about that. / MR. CHASKELSON

22 Samson Radebe" MR. CHASKELSON: My Lord, I ' m not ~nformed what they did during the day? and speclr~cally in relation to this person. My Lord the difficulty that I have with my learned friend ' s objection, I do not sec how he is going to present at all~ This witness has given his evidence My Lord, and the nature of cross examination one could expect to be a lengthy one, and the nature of things it is unlikely that his cross examination would finish within - b~fore any adjournment e If there is fear for the 10 safety of this witness My Lord, presumably the witness is going to be in as much peril after the case as during the case, and whatever peril the witness may be in as a result of his evidence, which can be the only reason for the objection which is made My Lord, the only reason for objection to delay is that the State feels its accompliooevidence may be, to use my learned friend ' s expression, threatened out of giving evidence. Now My Lord, that can' t arise once the man comes forward and gives evidence, he is as vulnerable now as he ever will 20 be against it. The accused are in jail they can do nothing. And all we are asking for My Lord, is some time on which to consult fully into this aspect and to take the cross examination in its logical course. If we don ' t My Lord, then prejudice.may be done to the accu~~ : My Lond my learned friend and I have deliberately refrained from asking for an adjournment at the beginning of this case. ve asked for time to prepare for the law, and then we went ahead immgdiately when Your Lordship directed us so to do, and naturally our 30 endeavours at that stage were directed towards the law. My learned friend is quite wrong when he says that my / learned

23 99. Samson Radebe. learned friend and I, my learned friend Mr. Masters is wrong when he says that Mro Joffe and I were instructed on behalf of these accused some two months ago. My Lord we were instruct d on behalf of some other people who were then appearing in the magistrate ' s Court, and the limit of our instructions was to apply for bail, for nothing else. As I recall it My Lord, none of these people were on the list of people whom we were originally asked to ropresent, and I think thie was put fully before ~O Your Lordship, when my l(;arned friend Mr. Joffe appeared and sk d for ostponem nt. I myself My Lord, was not instructgd in this case, until after the previous - all that we arc asking for My Lord, is just a littl time to make surs that no injustice is done. It may well be My Lord, that the accused will say that I know nothing at all about this man, that is all a tissue of lies, and I may have to cross examine on that basis. It may be My Lord, that the accused will say to me - yes I saw Samson Radebe on that day. Maybe My Lord, that the accused will say 20 that they know that Samson Radebe occupitd some specific position which makgs it - which accords a reason for his giving evidence, all these things My Lord have to be traversed with him. And that is all that we are asking for, and I am at a loss to understand why my learned friend objects, My Lord we deliberately haven' t asked for any postponement until now, to make sure that the case carries on. And as soon as we got met with a difficulty and we ask for a postponement my l earned friend says no we must bo rushed ahead, I just don' t follow that. 30 Because rgally vvhat pre judi ce can th re by, and delay My Lord. The Courts aren1t concerned with little bits / of

24 100e Samson R.adebe o of delay My Lord, the Courts arc h re to see that justice is donc o Not only that justice is done but that justice is seen to. So that all the people and the accused and thoir rglatives may know that we have had an opportunity of h~lping. I really don' t see wha t a short d lay of on~ or two hours, can possibly affect affect the case. I don' t understand o HIS LORDSHIP : Mr. Masters could you, Mr. Chaskelson suggests that there is no possible prejudice to the 10 State, could you PGrhaps indicate, you mgntioned that the witness was exposing himself, now could you perhaps indicate what you have in mind. You did not dilate. MR. MASTERS: My Lord, the State submitted right in the baginning that my learned friend asked for an adjournment of thr... c weeks, if he hasn' t asked for an adjournment of throe weeks, if he hasn' t asked for an adjourament, he ha s c ertainly. There is nothing but delay HIS LORDSHIP : That was Mr. Joff e I think. MR. MASTERS: Well whatever it was. There has been 20 nothing but delay, right from the beginning. Whether it i s my l earned friend ' s fault or not, I ' m not prepared to say. The State has already indicated My Lord that the Legislator d ~e med it desirable that there should be a summary trial, and that whole purpose seems to fall away. My Lord, every witness will no doubt present my l earned friend with a new problem and if the Court is going to adjourn then, every time my l earned friend feels that some further evidence has taken him by surprise. My Lord, the accused must take Counsel into 30 their confidence, he must have some specific instructions from them. My Lord, in any case we have already /wasted

25 101. Samson Radebe. wasted now a half an hour, my IGarn~d friend has got the whole of lunch timu to consult, and the State certainly opposes any further adjournment after that. My Lord, every witness who is brough here as I submitted to Your Lordship,arlier, is subject to intimidation. I will bring witnesses into Court who have changed their evidence, who refuse to give ovidence o Now, whether we adjourn in regard to this witness till tomorrow, it means more delay, more opportunities for intimidation. My Lord, 10 I submit if my learned f~1end has an hour and a quarter or whatever it is, he has got ample opportunity for finding out from the accused what their story is in relation to this witness. HIS LORDSHIP: Now Mr. Chaskelson in my view, I think you should be able to continue at about this afternoon. It gives you and hour and a half of the lunch time to have clarity on certain points you may not have been able to elucidate so faro But I agr ee with Mr. Masters that in cases of this sort it is of great importance 20 that the matter should proceed. It seems to me that you should have the material ready whatever happens, to conduct cross examination in the course of the afternoon after 2.15 p. m. 11R. CHASKELSON: As Your Lordship pleases. HIS LORDSHIP: There is bound to b e some further adjournm nts again MR. CHASKELSON: I daresay My Lord. HIS LORDSHIP : But in any event that doesn ' t mean that the time tho witness is kept on ice, if I may put it 30 that way, is limited to a great~r extent than - and the time is phased to that extent. /MR. CHASKELSON

26 102. MHo CHASKELSON: My Lord, may I put it this way, my learned fr10nd says that wh.never a new witness presents a new problem I may ask for an adjournmente My Lord, I certainly shall~ if the new witness presents a new problem. My learned friend is wrong to say that this is a delaying case, I achieve nothing by being delayed, My Lord, all it does it takes up more of my time. I am as anxious as anybody else that this case should proceed as quickly as possible o It is not the accused instructions 10 to me to delay proceeuings My Lord, und certainly neither I nor my learned friemd Mr. Joffe would ever be parties to delaying cases My Lord c My learned friend seems to suggest that we are endeavouring to defeat the ends of justice or something like that. HIS LORDSHIP: Mr. Masters pointed out that he did not involve Counsel in thatc MR. CHASKELSON:.ell it is Counsel who is asking for a postponement My Lord, that is what I find difficult to understand 0 20 HIS LORDSHIP: My view at the moment is, to put it shortly, that I think on the broad outlines you should know what the story of your clients is now, the story of the several accused o I assume there might be some point that you would like to clear up with them, you have an hour and a half for that, and after that the afternoon will not be p~rticularly long. MR. CHASKELSON: No My Lord, I appreciate that My Lord, and I think I should be able to proceod at COURT ADJOURNED (At ) ION

27 103e Samson Radebe. ON RESUMING: SAMSON RADEB~, (still under oath) CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. OHASKELSON: You say that you wont to the police station on the day after the second moeting? --- Yes o What day of the week was that? It is such a long time ago that I don1t know what day it was, but that date is down on my Statement that I made to the 10 police. The date that you went there? --- Yes o Would you like to have a look at your statement to soe what the date is? --- I haven't got the statement I don tt know where it is. MR. MASTERS: My Lord, the statement, the one he made to the police I haven't got here. T~~ t policeman will be called and he wlll give the date on which the s tatement was made o I have only got the full statement hore o CROSS EXAMINATION (CONT.): So you went to the Orlando Police Station, do you remember what time you went? -- In the morning.) What time in the morning? --- I don ' t know. Farly in the morning or late? It was in the early morning, I don't know what the time was. I don't want to know the exact time, but I want to know what you mean by the early morning, do you mean 7 o ' clock, 10 o'clock, give me some idea? -- Round about 7-8 a.mr About 7 or 8 a~m. And did you make a statement to the po '_ir. ('man? --- I r1i t1 / hat

28 104. Samson Radobe What did you tell the policeman? --- I told them exactly what I told the Court here this morning. Everything that you told the Court? --- Yes, everything 0 What happened then? --- The police at Orlando told me that I would be coming to Marshall Square, and make a statement to the S niors at Marshall Square. What happened then? --- A detective from Orlando brought mg through to Marshall Square. 10 Now were you alone or was anybody else with you? ---- It was the detective and I~ And where did you go to? --- Marshall SCluare. \-What happened at Marshall Square? --- There I made my statement o The second 8tatement? --- Well it was the same statement as I had made at Orlando. Did you make it as soon as you arrived at Marshall Square? Imm ~d iately on our arrival, yes. Did you make any statements after that? --- No, 20 I did not. So the only two statements which you made to the police was the first o,:e about 7 or 8 0 ' clock in the morning at Orlando, and the second one when you got to Marshall Square? --- Well as far as I ' m concerned I made one statement. That statement I told them about at Orlando and had to m~ke that statement to the Seniors at Marshall Square. I came and I made the statement to them at Marshall Square. HIS LORDSHIP: But one statement you made twice, 30 is that what you mean? --- Yes. CROSS EXAMI.N~T!0B (CONT.): When you got to Orlando / did

29 1050 Samson Radebe 0 did the man write down what you told him? --- Yes, it was written downo Do you read? --- Iem not very well educated but I c an r ead o Did you read through the statement that was written down? - -- I r ead it personally. At Orlando? --- Yes. And did it contain everything tha t you had told the police? --- Yeso 10 And did you sign ~C? I dido You then went through to Marshall Square? --- Yes. Now at Ma r shall Square, who was the man who a sked I you questions? --- I don't know his name. Do you s ee him anywhere in Court? --- No, I don ' t. Will you look c ar efully? - -- He ' s not here. He is not h ore. All right. Did he have the statement that you gave to the m~n at Orlando, the 20 one that you ha d written down? --- Ye s o He had that statement in front of him? --- Yes. And what did he then do? He then questioned me on the s t at ement that I ha d ma de at Orlando o He questioned you on the statement? --- Yes. Then did you answer his questions? --- Yes, I r epeated my statement to himo And was it then written down? --- Yes. And did you sign it again? --- I did~ Then what happened? --- I then stayed at 30 Marshall Squa ree You s t aye d at Marshall Squa re. But ~ diq / you

30 106. Samson Radebe. you stay? --- They just told m~ that is all, tll~y d:t..u.n1t tell lli8 why. that I had to stay there Didn't you ask them why you VIler staying? --- There were two, Standley and I, and they told - ask them.. we did And what did they say? --- And they said they would release us againe 10 didn't say They would release you again? --- Yes. Did they say when they would release you? --- They But where di d they keep you in Marshall Square? --- ; In the cellso In the cells. Wore you arrested? ---~, but we were locked up with these people. But how do you 1!lGan you wer~ weren' t arrested? --- I don' t know. locked up but you But surely you must, a person doesn't just come and lock you up in a cell, don't you want to know why you are locked up? My Lord, but I told the Court 20 that I did ask them, and I got an answer from them, they 30 told me that they would let me go~ How long did you stay locked up for? --- ~hen the first caso was hoard, we were released. I don't know whet~. _~ we had been detained for a fortnight, I have forgotten. When did you go to Court for the first time? -- Well we first went to the lower Court, that was about a fortnight after we had been arrested. Didn't they take you down to Court a day or two after you had been arrested? --- No. Are you quite sure of that? --- Yes, when we first went to the Magistrate ' s Court we were then reloac'!ed. / I....

31 107 Samson Racleben whether you I want to know are you quite - I want to know ro taken down to the Maaistrate 's Court wi thin on or two days of your being arrest(~d? The first tim. the case went for trial vas about a fortnight fter we had been arrested. All right that is very strange because most people are taken down to Court, within two days of being arrested? --- Ycs e All right, now what happened then when you 10 went to Court after two w eks? --- Then we were not called we were told that the case had boen postponed. The case had been postponed? and I were called away from the other and we that we were discharged. You were discharged? --- Released. Then Stanley were told Did they tell you you had to come back to Court, or did they tell you? --- Yes they cid, they told us that we would again be required. When you went down to Court did you stand with 20 all the accused or did you stand somowhore else? --- I 30 was taken down to the Magistrate's Court together with the accused in this case, we were kept together there until my r el ease. Yes, I was. And weren' t you an accused in this case? --- You were an accused? Are you still ae:.,.. accused, or have they withdrawn all charge s against you? There is still a case against me. c: What is he case against you? --- Arson. know it is arson, ' ~ know that is how it was written down. s I don' t know, but I / {here I

32 108 0 Samson RadebeC' on the summons~ Whore did you see it written down? --- I saw tho t On the summons. was, what it meant? --- I did 1 Did you ask anybody what I asked my oth8r co- accused, and they told mc that was to burn premises. i(l~ ~o v+.,..l...v Now what charg shoet is this, what summons is l~! IIW.I up) this that you are talking about? --- I saw this summons, it was in the possession of the detectives 10 many of them.. Vhich detectives? --- I don't know, there are Well where did you see it? - -- The first day we went to the Magistrate's Court. The first day you went to the Magistrate ' s Court. And to get that cl ar that is about two weeks after you were arrested? --- Y cs ~ Now whereabouts did you see it, at the Magistrate's Court? --- I saw it in the Rand aily Mail, and I saw it at the Magistrato's - Court. You said you saw a summons, now I want to know 20 whereabouts you saw the summons? --- At the Magistrate's 30 \ Court. names on it. Whose name was on the summons? --- I saw no No names? I saw no names. Vell what did you see then, how did you know... it was a summons? --- I saw this thing in the possession of the detectivgs, I cannot witr certainty ay that it was a summons. Why did you say it was a summons? --- I saw ~i~t~~. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ these brown dockets they carry 0 " / It

33 109~ Samson Radebe o It was a brown docket that they carry. you say you tnout,rn it was a summons? --- I know detectives carry summonses in those brown dockets. ~as it a white piece of paper? --- Yes. Why did '.That else did it have written on it except Arson? I only saw tho word Arson. to Did it havo any other words written on it? --- Yes, but I did not read ito 10 did not r ead=it ) Did you see any word next to Arson? --- No, I Where was the detective - sorry - where was the detective when you saw this? --- It was down in the cells in the Magistrate's Court 0 Is that where they held the Court that day, was the Court held in the cells? --- No ~vidence the case was romanded on that day. Yes, but tho question is - was th~ was taken, Court hold in the cells of th0 11agistrate's Court? --- That is where cases were remanded. Not exactly in the cells, but just 20 outside the main gates as you come out there is a big opon space. That is where the Magistrate was when he 30 remanded theso cases e Now did you SGO the summons, or the thing that you described as a summons, before or aft r the Magistrate came in? --- I saw it before the Magistrate came in. Beforo hg came in. W~s that when you were standing with the oth0r accused? --- Y s, we were all together. What accusod number were you? --- I was No. 27. Do you know who the accused were that wer 1st nding

34 110, Samson Radebe standing next to you? --- No, I don't know them. and 26 were. We/ll'n ve to find out who accused Nos. 28 How did it come about that you saw this summons? The detective had it in his hand 0 He didn' t come and show it to ne, as he had it in his hand I saw the word Arson on it o ere you l ooking over his shoulder or what? My Lord, where you ar standing I was moro or less to tho side of himo Well then you must have 8c8n the detective? -- Yes, I saw hin, but I did not take any particular notice of him. --- No. Was it the man who had asked you questions before? SOIDLbody else? --- Yes? How did it come about tha t he openod the docket!whilo he was standing there? - -- This pigc~ of paper that I call a summons, he had the docket in his arm, and he had the summons lying open on the docket. I thought you said it was inside the docket not on the docket? - -- I said it was a summons - w I said it was a Su.mI!l.ons it was sim;lar to summonses they carry in dockets, I did not say that this had come out of a docket ~ f Where have you see surnnonses before this? saw one on that day s -- Then have you se n it before that day? --- No, ~---- I hay n It seen onc before then o ] - 0: Ihen had you see a police docket bofore that 30 day? I hnve seen police dockets. When? --- From childhoodr / rvhere I

35 111., Somson Rrvlebe. Where? --- You also find them in Morroco police station, i± you go in there you see itq But what I want to know is why have you had occasion to s e police dockets? "lell there were times that a friend or relative was in custody, that I went and saw them about it~ But you never saw a summons before that day? --- No I have seen summonses before. But how did you know that su~onses are kept 10 in police dockets? --- J.. Have seen po:iicg put SUIIlI:l.ons s in thlir dockots at Morroco police station. But if you have never seen a summons before that day how can that possibly be true that you have seen summons - the police putting summonses into dockets when you told us a f w ninutes before that you have never seen a SUTIDons before that day? --- I have seen summonses, but I was nyself not too certain whether that was a summons or not, All right, let ' s try and g' t this clear. Have 20 you seen sumnonscs before that day? --- Yes, I have, I have seen the~ put summonses in their dockets. Why did you say just now that you have nev,r s en summonses beforo that day? HIS LORDSHIP: I may be wrong, my impression was that )// he did say he had seen it before o MR. CHASKELSON: My Lord, he said he had seen a docket but he had never seen a summons, perhaps we can have it played back. Mr. Joffe has a note there that he h'ls never seen a summons before o 30 HIS LORDSHIP: He D~y have given two different replies, at one stage he said -hat he had seen it, possible at / another

36 112. Samson Radebe~ another st~ge he said he hadn' t. CROSS EXAMIN.TION (CONT ~ ): Do you ro~ember just now saying that you had never sc,n a summons before? My Lord, I certainly have no knowledge of it, but I know and I hgard people talk about sumnonses that is kept in dock~ts, they carry it in these dockets. ~ell what is your answer, is your answer that you per sonally have never seen a SUTInons before that day? -- I hav<:.'. soen SUI!lmonses bofore thene 10 You have? - -- l~~~ You se0 bucause just now, I ' m quit sure, we C2n have a play back if necessary, you told us that you had never s en a summons before that day? --- I have heard p -opl o call the sumnonses, and that is why I say it was a summons. You are not answering my qu.stion. The question is whether you have ever soen sunmonses before tho day at the Magistrate ' s Courto HIS LORDSHIP: Mr. Chaskelson appar ntly his answer is 20 thi, I understand ~ith all th repli~s given that he has seen what ho thinks to be, considers to be surunonses boforo, he. is not so absolutoly sure if you cross examine him on that particular point, but he a s sumes thcm to have boen summonses. MR. CHASKELSO N: Perhaps the witness should tell us. HIS LORDSHIP: Well I don' t think you will g2t that sort of a reply fron him that way the questioning has been going on now, that is why I ' n putting it to you as a possible explanation. 30 CRO SS BXAMINATION (CONT. ): Let us start at the beginning. Have you seen a su~ons on the day before or ever before / going

37 1130 Samson Radebe. going to th~ I;agistrate I s Court? --- ell I have not seen a summons personally b~fore th n, but I know that police keep summonses in their dockets o Now I doni t want th -re to b any misunderstanding about this, are you qui e sure that you have never seen a summons beforl: that day when you went to the Magistrate's Court? It is possible that I have seen summonses. Well when would you have seen them? --- Long ago? Even if I did see one I didn't take notice of it. 10 Even if you did see one you didn1t take notice of it, is that your answer? --- YCS~ Have you ever seen - I'm going to ask you a different question - s~onscs before t1 have you ever seen policemen with t day? --- I have. You have? --- I know that the police from Morroco police Station have carried sumnonses and I know and I havo sesn them hand out SUMmonses to people. Now how Ll it that just this word Arson struck ' your eye? --- Y~s. 20 Now how was it that you j~st saw this word Arson? That was the v8ry first word written. Where was :it writtc'n? --- It was right on the top of the page - Arson Case. ~ight at the to~ of the page - ArsQn Case. Did you see the word Case? Yes. So you didn't see one word you saw two words, you saw Case after Arson? --- Yes. Th0re were sono other words written there, but I cannot say what the other word~ were. 30 But you saw the words Arson Cdse? did vera they in English or Afrikaans? --- En~lish o / English

38 Samson Radebe: English. Now where did you S~ it, you said it was at the ~op 01 ~no page? --- i~s.'1ere those the only two word'" on the line, or were there more words on tho same line? --- There were many words written My Lord, but th first words wore Arson Case? The first words were Arson Case. ~ere they und rlined or were they just by thp.idsglves? - -- That \ 10 I did not notice o You did not not~~~. 7 re they written in ~ \1 handwriting or w rc they yped? --- Typed o >. Typed~ Do you really want His Lordship to believe this, that you saw the words Arson Case, typed on the top of the page inside the docket? paper was lying on top of thf doc k~t on his arm. I said thjs 'l"v'hich he had lying All right. But you still want His Lornship to I believe that you saw there on top Arson Case? - -- Yes, I do, b.cause I ' n telling th~ trutho And th.j.t is th(' first tim that you knew what - thg case was ~bainst you? --- Yes. Until then nobody +.old you charge wns I a&ainst you? - -- No o Well tell me when you saw the words Arson Case, JO how did you know it was your case? I don ' t know, I was an accused person, wearing the nunber 27. But how did you kno'vv th,:tt Arson Case related to your case? Because there were no other cases hard here, that was the only case heard. All right. Tell me Sanson, did the police say \hat would happen if you gave evidence he re? --- N0 1 / they

39 115 0 Samson Radebe ~ they did not~ in Court. I received a summons that I was requited When did you know for the first time that you were going to have to give 0.vidence here? - -- When I got the SUI!lI1ons at hoi!le~ You bot the sunnons at ho~e? Did it come as a surprise to you? --- I was surprised. Because I did not know that there were people of our group, that is th(~ group which I was in, that was ticked and that 10 they were going to appgdr in Cour~ c Anybody ever ask yon whether you were pre-gared to give evidence against these people? --- No, nobody ask d me" Ngbody ever askod you? ---~. '} ~obody ev 'r say that if you gavo evidence in this case, the charge would "uc withdrawn against you? No. Is tho charge still i~nding against you? I 20 Do you me an to toll His LOl'dship that the \1\1 MR 0 MASTERS : My Lord, tho charge has boen withdrawn, \ if my learned friond wants ~o know. 30 CROSS EXAMINATION (CONT.): Do you mean to tell ~e tha t you were called t.o Court here to give evidence - all right lot ' s go vary slowly then. \Have you spoken ~~ to anybody about giving evidence in tllis case? --- No, Your father. the only person I have spoken to is ny fathero sitting in Court here. - please? No~ --- Havo you spoken to Mr. Masters, Just stand up Mr. Masters You h!'1,vo not spoken to Mr. Mastors? --- No, I ----I. have J

40 116 0 Samson Radebe o have not. Dld you sp ak to any policeman about giving vidence in the c~se? --- No policeman has ever... asked me whether I was prepared to give evidenceo Do you really want His Lordship to believe that you wore broueht hert to Court without speaking to the policeman, without sp~aking to Mr. Masters and just put into the witn ss box? --- The police came they were looking for me. They found 1:1(' they said - Oh you are here, they 10 showed mo wharv to sit and I sat down there. D;d you ask why you have b~en brought here? Yes, I asked. Vhorl did you ask? - -- I asked the European ~ ~ dot ctive, and h~ said to ne ~ Ju.st a moment? - -- Look only speak the trutp t~t is all w- want. ;lliich European detective did you ask? --- He.s not in Court now. Not in. Will you bl, able to r c cognize him \ 20 ~in? --- Y ~ s know him. When did you comg to Court for the first time? Th~ first day it was callcd in Court, I was here ~ Was that the time the European policeman told you to toll the truth or was it somg other time? --- Yes. Every day they came out and saw whether we are here, the witnesses are here. All they tell you is - look you have just got to tell the truth that is all, we don ' t want anymore. Do they tell that everyday? --- Today is the 30 only day that I have not seen this detective. But on all the other days have they told you to / tell

41 117" Samson Radebe o \ 10 tell the truth? --- I was twice already told to just speak the tru1ih. And nothing else? --- The truth and nothing else o But vhat I mean to say is was nothing else ever told to you? --- Noo No other talks about giving evidence in this case? --- Noo You know it is a very very strange, you must bg one of the few wltnesses who 7as ever called to give evidence without a consultation? --- lell I was told you have got to tell the Court only what you know and the truth that is allo Tell me, the last time that you were in the :Magistr tels Court) how may times have you been down to the Magistrate ' s Court? Three occasions we went I ) 20 d~vn there u The first 0 0asion you told, us was two weeks after the - after you were arrested? --- Yes. 1~hen was the se00nd occasion? --- A couple of da~ thereafter. I 0annot tell the Court now how long t.lleree.fte.r. And what did they say, did they say you have to come back on another day? --- Yes, the Ma~istrat e told us, he called us in and told us that we could go but we had to come back again when the case would be 30 heard. Did he give you that date when the case was to be heard? --- Yes. When? --- I don't know what date he had eiven us, but we were told to be there on that dateo / Have

42 118 0 Samson Radebe e - Have you got to go down to the Magistrate's OJ CQurt againy ies e ~hen? --- I don't know the dates they gave o But you have got to go down to the Magistrate's Court, suyely you musj,j know when you have got to go? --- Those dates have passed, and I cannot tell the Court what dates we were told to be back. future? 10 August. But have you got to go back on some day in the Ies, I'm required back there on the 5th of.-, Well that is what I want to know. required back on the 5th of August~ You are For your Arson Case? --- Yos o Have you ever been taken down to Court and had. that Arson Charge withdrawn against you? --- No, > N0 1 has anybody ever told you that the Arson } clmrge was going tc be withdrawn? No~ You mean to say you were called to give evidence in this case, whilr. the charge is still standing out 20 against you, without being told th2 t the charge is going to be withdrawn and without any undertaking being given to you that if you gave your Gvidence satisfactorily, that the charge would be withdrawn? --- No~ has made me any promisese Nobody ~obody has made you any promises. Hes nobody given you any warning? --- Noo.. Nobody told you that whac you say in this ca~e could - be used as evidence against you? --- No. Do you know that you are being charged about 30 those two meetings that ybu spoke about, don' t you? --- Yes o / And ~

43 119., Samson Radebe. And you are asked to come here to give evidence about those two mge1ilngs wlthout being warned that what you said could be used in evidence against you? No, nobody warn d me. Nobody warned you. Nobody told you that the case was going to be withdrawn against you? --- No, 10 nobody told me~ You were just brought here to give evidence without -- speaking to anybody at all? I spoke to DDQody T All right. I 'ila.!1t to put it to you Samson, that when you wer8 arrested by the police, that you were very worried? --- I was frightened yes ~ of? You were frightened. Vhat were you frightened This thing had worried me, here I was arrested for something that I had nothing to do and I knew nothing about How do Y mean you knew nothing about? --- I --- was af~ajd tbat I -{;as bein~ joined as an accomplice of those who held their meetings in thcsg koppes among the 20 trees o ~y were you afraid of that? --- Well I was afraid tbat I was gqixlg to be charged that I am one of tllqse wnq go out and hold tbese meetings o ~ What did you think would happen if you were charged? --- I didn' t know what the outcome would be, but to myself I decided that I will tell the Court the truth and that is all~ 30 hat did you think the outcome might be? --- I don' t know. Was the word sabotage used at any time? I did not hear the word sabotage being used, now I se _ a lot nbout sabotage in the news papers o / When

44 Samson Radebe 0 When you were arrested and when the other people were arrested did you hear the word sabotage? No, I did not. To me the word was not used What did you think the punishment would be for the people who went to those meetings? I don ' t know what the punishment would be o 10 Did you think it w~s a very serious thing to go to the meetings? - -- I know that it vvas a serious thing to go to those meetingsc You had not to go there o You? Had not to go there. What sort of punishment did you think the people would get that go to the meetings? --- no idea. ~id I have you think they would go to jail? - -- I knew that they would go to jail for this reason, it was discussed and it was said that they were coming in to burn down builditifs and they were going to use explosivese It must have been very ser-lous then Samson? To kill the Europeans e I knew that that was something serious~ Weren ' t you very V"arried, you standing there, charged with that very serious charge? --- Yes, I did. Didn' t you think what can I do to get out of this charge? No, My Lord, I did not. All I thought of was to tell the truth that is aile. did not 0 Did you over ask to see a lawyer? --- HIS LORDSHIP: To? No, I 30 MR. CHASKELSON: See a lawyer. CROSS EXAMINATION - (CO NT.) : Did you think tho pollce / had

45 Samson Radebe~ had made a mistako when they arrested you? --- I did. ~Gren't you worried that unless this thing was put right that very serious things would happen to you? --- But I have already told them that I knew nothing about thisc Yos, but there you were chargod with Arson? -- Well there again I was mixed up with another gang, a group of people, and I'm not guilty of such a chargee No' I would have thought - here you were in 10 that position arrested on a most ser10us charge, the police seem to have made a mistake, weren't you w01ried what vvas going to happen to you? --- I was worried about it yes, Wh t did you do when you worried, did you -? There dave you pot parents or - how old are you? --- I ' m twenty four. Twenty four" p re your mother and father alive? 20 They are still aliv and they live jn White City~ I Did they come and see you while you were in jail? My mother came to see me at Marshall Square, she beought mo some food but sh} wasn' t allowed to see me. She wasn' t allowed to see you? --- No, the food was brought to me and she didn't come and see me~ Whether she was not allowed to, or why she didn't come ~~~d~o~n~'t~k~n~ow~ Did you ask to soe your mother? --- No, I did not. Why not? --- When I went to fetch the food I was 30 told that she had already left againj Did you ask for a messp~e to be sent to your / mother

46 122 Samson Rudebe c mother to como and see you? --- No, I didn'te Didn'~ wanted to soc hero Didn~t you want to see your mother? --- Oh, I you say well the next time she brings me food please ask her to come and se me? --- No that was very close to us going to Court, and I did not make such a request" Vhen did your mother come to SGe you for the first time? --- She works for a tailoring firm in town, 10 she can only come and sc;.e me in ti.1 i...vcning o vvhen did she come for the first time? --- That vas several days after my arrest I cannot now tell the Court how long after my arrest it was~ How did you know it was close to the day that you were going to Court? --- We were told. When wero you told? --- We were told before we vvent to Courto 'Vhen, the day or what time were you told that you vv'ero going down to Court? That I can't say - now 20 tell the Court exactly when I was tuld. But I want to know how it all happoned, who came and told you you were [oing to Court? --- It was talk in tho cells. Talked in the cells? --- Talk in the cells. I am not certain, it is possible that a policeman came and said that we were going to Court on a certain day, I have that in th~ back of my mlnd, that that was so, but I can't say with certaintyo HOI often did your mother come to bring you 30 food? Once only. Only once o And when she came to bring you food / you

47 123- Samson Radebe. you knew then that you were going to Court soon? --- I had already known thal:; we were golng to Court when she brought me the food~ to your mother after you got your release? --- I have spoken to her yes n Did you ask her why she didn't see you at jail? --- No, I did not~ Why did you say she wasn't allowed to see you? --- I said I did not know whether she was not allowed to see 10 me, the food was brougi:lv lio me ang I did not see her. You see I think when you gave your evidence for tho very first time you sai1 that she wasnlt allowed to see you and then you subsequently said, you weren' t sure whether she was allo~ed to see you or not? --- My Lord, I said I did not know because I went to fetch the food, when I got th re I found that she was no more there. But tho VE~y first statement you made, the very first statement you made, that was that your mother wasn' t allowed to see you? That I did not say, 20 You did not say that? --- ~~o, I did not. But you know that is what I hoard and that is what my learned friend has written down? --- You might have hoard so, but I did not say it~ hadn't we. ~ell thon I think we had better check up on this Can we HIS LORDSHIP: I think that was the examination Mro Chaskelson, if you would proceea in the meantime we could roturn to the point. MR. CHASKELSON: Just make! a not e My Lord, othe rwi se 30 I ' m likely to forgot. You see Samson, I want to put it to you that in fact your mother wasn't allowed to como / and

48 124~ S mson Radeb and sec you fuile you were in jail? --- I don't know she didn't ~eli me so~ And you have never spoken to her afterwards? --- No, I didnoto Didn't you say to her 'Mother I was in jail for two weeks and you only brought me food once and never saw m~t ~ut all'? --- I did not surely you must have thought what sort of a mother have I got that doesnlt come and see me in jail? She works o But she could comeo~.".? --- It was difficult for h\;;r, I knew that and I did.1ot ask her, I always used to get food from my co-driver he usod to bring me food often And I never even asked him why doesn't my mother como along and bring me foodo Did you speak to your co-driver? --- No. But then huw could you even ask him? was also busy working, and they tell me~your has brought you food.' He co-driver 20 But you ~aid you didn't even ask you co-driver why your mothor didn't come? --- Bocause I did not. not. But you didn't see him did you? --- No, I did That is why you couldn't ask him? --- I used to get the food yes 0 Yes, but you didn't soe him that is why you could not ask him? --- That ls true, I didn't soe hime rr-- V Samson you told us a terrible tale of what 30 happened on that second meeting, did you agree with what was said at thl. meetinb:? --- I was quiet all -Ghe / t imc

49 125-; Samson Radebc c time, I never agreed with anything" But you were at both m~etings weren't you? --- I was present at tho meotings~ And you didn't agr oe with what was said there? --- I was not agreeable with what was being said e Did you speak out against it? --- I was afraid of them, if I had said anything I would have been assaulted/l Do you think anybody that was th~re could have 10 spoken up? --- ho, one of the group? Yes anybody who was ther., people who came to that meeting, could they haole di sagr ood with what was said? --- I cannot say whether there were people who were not agreeable, I don't knowo If somebody wanted to disagree was he allowed to disagree? --- I am certain that he would not have been allowed to say tha-g. Do you moan you were - yes all righto Can we take it then that if anybody attende~ the meeting and 20 didn't agr ee with what was sai d, h0 couldn't say anything about it? --- Not the way I judge it, he could not have \ said S Now Samson, did you think these people were serious: --- Oh yes, I am certain they were serious, because they had all these instruments, weapons there readyo I see? that must have been a terrible thing? Yes. 30 Weren't you worried about it? --- Oh yes, I was. I mean this could have been s brutal thing, those people could h ~ve gone into town and murdered and / killed.

50 Samson Radebe,. ki lled and burnt plac8s down? --- YeS, it was a nasty thing. And you thought they were quite serious about it? --- I was certain that they were serious about it, because they had dangerous weapons? You thought they were going to murder people? ---- Yes. Because they had said so to me. No. Didn' t you do anything to try and stop it? What ha~pened after 10 Why not? --- I was afraid of them. ' ~~ Let ' s see what happened. 20 you ran away? --- I I ran away with othc rs.., don't know what happened thereafter, Now then IGt ' s think, there is a Police Station near the Umzimshloti School isn' t there. There is a Police Station near thg school where the meeting was held? Yes, there iso away? - -- I Did you go to the police station when you ran did not. Why not? --- I was afraid because it was said that the police station would be attacked, I couldn' t go to the police station, I thought I would meet them again. I But everybody had gone in the train to town? --- don' t know the others with what they went, we were the only group who went in that train. train? I can only say HIS LORDSHIP : Was there only one group that went on the I cannot say by what conveyance the others went I ' m sorry, I cannot say please repe~t 30 that last sentence? --- I cannot say with what convey~nce the others went, I can only say what we went - or snould / have

51 127 Samson Radeber have gone o CROSS EXAMINATIOr" (CONT.): But as thore anybody there, bosidos the people that went on +he train, were there other people? - -- The only person who remained behind was one man, that was the fellow who had ai vided the peoplo into several groups, and ho said that he would follow up in a car. The peoplg who were in the groups did they go off on tho train? I can only speak of the 10 group in which I was, I d n It know with what the other groups went. Suroly Samson you must havo soen~ You went to tho station, when you were at the station? --- I went to the station yes, but I didn' t see the others when I wont to tho station. Was thero only your group at the station? - - Yes, I said so c Only your group, oh, I thought everybody had gone to the station. So how many were there in your 20 group? --- I did not count them. How many tbough, about? It could have been thirty odd& Thirty odd. How many people were there at the meeting? --- Many, I cannot say how many. Well give us some idea, more than 50? --- More than that. More than 100? --- BetNeen 50 and 100. But I don' t understand you Samso n, here was a teriible thing happening and here were you with a chance 30 to save it all and you did nothing? --- I did nothing. But surely you should have got a message out / to.

52 128" Samson R debe 0 to say 'look out these people are coming to town to murder, do something to stop it '? --- With whom should I have sent such a message~ You could have gone to the police station? -- How could I know where the first men went to ~ said that the police station had to be attackedo It was They could have gone there o Couldn' t you have gone to see whether they were on their way to the police station? --- No, I ran away 10 I didn' t go with the group, if I had to meet them again " they would have injured me o What about White City? Why couldn't you go to the police station there? I had prepared myself to go there the next morning early. But what good would it be to go the next morning aiter all the damage had been done? It was very late at night it was 2 o ' clock and I was very much afraid at that time already, it being so late and the Orlando Police Station is a distance away from my home, 20 But surely, didnit you want to do anything to save this terrible thing that was going to happen? I would have liked to stop it, but I was afraid, I couldn' t do anything. There were so many things you could have done, let ' s look, what about the railway station? --- I had to 30 run away from the station ~.~y Lord. Just let's examine, are there any policemen at the railway station? --- I saw no policemen, I ran away before I could see onto the station itselfo Aren' t there usually policemen at the stations? There are policemen, yes~ / And

53 1290 Samson Rade ~.Cl And there is a ticket officer? --- Yes o There are telephones at the station? -- There should be yese Well I can't understand, why didn 9 t you j~st go and hide and then come back and tell the other people on the station that there is going to be trouble? VIe all ran away, even tho se who ran away with me 0 Was there somebody in your company who ran away with you? --- There are people who ran away with me 10 yes. Do you know there names? --- No, they were all strangers to me I didn't know any of them. ere you together when you ran away, or did you run away separately? --- Each one went his own direction, we didn't run together. Tell me how did you go home, did you run all the way home or did you walk or what? --- I walked and ran home, My Lord. as anybody following you? --- Those who ran 20 with me, when we got to the residential area that was the last I saw them, I don't know where they went~ What residential area did you get into? -- Killarney. Is there a police station ncar there? There is no police station there My Lorde Is there a telephone there? --- I know of no telephone there.. Is there a location superintendent there? -- I don't know where the offices are there, I can only 30 tell you where the municipal offices a t White City arer. Did you look for the municipal 0 fices? --- / No? C I 0

54 130~ Samson Radebe~ No, I did not. Let's get to White Cit Yo Where is White City is it next to Killarney? --- No a long distance away from Killarney, Vhat is the next place after Killarney? -- Pass through Orlando West, then through Dube, Mfulo and then White City. Is there a police station at Orlando West? --- No. 10 At Dube? --- No. At Mufulo? --- No. Are there offices there, location offices at? --- Yes, there are municipal officeso Do you know where they are? --- I know where Mfulo offices are. Did you think of going to the Mfulo offic es to report? I was so frightened then that I didn't give that a thought, it never entered my mind. Why. Why were you still frightened? --- Here 20 I had just come out of something very nasty and I ran away. But you had escaped from your followers, they weren't anywhere near you? --- It was very clearly said the one who ran away would be killed, I didn't know at what moment I could mget any of these people. All the more reason to go and look for a safe place at the first opportunity, why didn1t you go to the municipal offices? Perhaps they are in the veld o At the municipal 0 'fices? --- I had one thing 30 in mind then and that was home o Surely didn't you think of saving all the people / who n

55 131" fumson Radebe 0 who were going to be attacked and murdered? --- Yes, I was thinking of that. Well why didn't you do something about it? -- I was afraid. Vfuen you got home, you say your car was there when you got home? --- It waso Did you have the keys of the car then? --- No. Yhen did you - did you ever get the keys of the car. Did you subsequently get the keys of the car? No, I did not. Tell me what did you go to Orlqndo Police Station to report? --- I went there to report what had happened to me. But about what. Did you go to report about the meeting or about the car? --- I told tllem the whole thingo Weren't you afraid? --- No, I was not afraid then that was in the daylight then. But why weren't you afraid anymore, if you had 20 been told thatthose who didn I t go with w wid be killed? These people weren1t with me then. But they weren't with you the night before? -- But that was at night time. But what is the difference? I di d not know whether all these groups had gone, what had happened to them, and I was afraid that I would meet them during that night. At Orlando did you tell them the whole story about the meetings or only about your car? --- I dido 30 Everything? --- I did~ Have you ever read throllgh your statement again / that 00.. ~

56 132, Samson Radebe o that you gave them? --- The last I saw the statement was when I made ito You haven't seen it since then? --- I have never had it in my hands since that dayo Do you have a taxi licence? --- I have~ I have a public service licence. You have. ~~en did you get it? In When you were l7? --- Must have been yes o Is that when you got a driving licence? --- Yeso 10 Now what is the number of your motor car? -- T.J $ Is it your own car or does it belong to somebody else? I am only the driver it has its owner. Who is the owner of it? Ernest N~lovu. Is he the co-driver of it, that you talked about that came to prison? --- The other driver is a friend of mine Petrus Dhlalizae It is only me, I was the driver of Ndlovu and it was me vvho allowed my friendpetrus to drive my employer's caro 20 Petrus is the man who came to jail? --- Not to jail, but at the cells at Marshall Square. And Ernest Ndlovu what about him? --- I know nothing about him. Have you SGen him since you,? --- I am working for him again yes. I keep the car, You keep tho car. What about the keys of the car did you ever get them back? --- No, never got them back, we had to have other keys made. Who had them made? --- Petrus and I. 30 What about Ernest Ndlovu? --- He didn't say anything about it. / I". 0

57 133. Samson Radebe. I mean wasn1t it his job to have the keys made? -- That car was in my care and I had to look after the car. Well can you give me the address of Ernest Ndlovu? Yes, he stays at 2117 Zolalo. And Petrus what is his full name and where does he stay? --- Potrus Dhlaliza, he lives in Orlando Bast, I know tho home, but I cannot give the number. This taxi rank that you talked about when you first saw the group, where is the taxi rank? --- In 10 Maledio Where about? --- There is a taxi rank at Maledi and at that taxi rank, the station, we wait. What station, what street is it in? --- No street has a name there. Is there only one taxi rank at Maledi, or is there more than one taxi rank? --- There are two of tm m, one is at the railway stationg And is this DDt the one, is this the one away from the railway station? --- This is the one away from 20 the railway station. Was yours the only car there or were there other taxis in the rank? --- I was tho only car then, stationary at the rank. And you mentioned a woman who came to speak to you, what was her name? --- Yes. What is hor name. --- Lulu, I know her by that name, I don't know whether she has any other name or an English name. What is hor surname? I don't know. 30 Where does she live? She lives in Maledi. Where about? --- I don't know, I don't know the / numbero

58 134" Samson Radebe o number!) 10 Do you know the housey --- r do. Will you be able to point out the house if required? Yes, Iill do so to the detectives, How many people got into the car? --- It was eleven or twelve, there were many people in the car My Lord, I didn;t count themr As many as cleven or twelve? - -- Yes. Could you all get into the car? --- All of us. ~hat sort of a car have you got? Model Chev o Is it big enough to take eleven or twelve people? Packed in there is place for them, then they sit one on top of the othero --- Yese Now who drove, did you drive? ot me e Did this man whom you knew as Dennis did he drive? Now I think you told us that you first drove to a garage? --- Yes n 20 Then the driver, then Dennis said they mustn't take petrol there but they must go somewhere else? -- Took petrol at the B.P. Garage. But I understood your evidence to bo tnt you stopped and took petrol first at another garage? -- I did not 0 My note of your evidence is that you stopped at a garage? --- No, I did not o MR. MASTERS: He didn't say that My Lord, with respect. HIS LORDSHIP~ My impression is, for what it is wort h 30 Mr. Chaskelson, that he mentioned only the one garage. MR. CHASKELSON: Both my learned fri nd Mr. Joffe and I / have

59 135.., Samson Radebe. have a note that says that the witnesses evidence was they stopped at the garage and then the driver who was called Dennis said that they should not go through the busy part 9 bu-; that they should go to B.F. petrol station to take petrol there, and they then went to the B. P ~ My Lord, will you chock that please, don ' t put it to the witness yes, Mr. Interpreter. HIS LORDSHIP : I see, yes I see how from your note - possibly that inferrenc 0 could be drawn. Tr,'a called at 10 a garage and then driver said we would go to B. P. Garage. Possibly there were - I'm not quite sure the inferrence, I was under a different impression but my notes seem to give the possibility - to indicate the possibility that he may have referred to two e MR. CHASKELSON: My Notes are - he stopped at the garage tnen the driver whom I knew as Dennis said that we should not go throught tho busy part, we must go to the B.P. petrol station and take petrol there. That is the note that my learned friend Mrft Joffe has. I ' m not 20 quito cl ar on that, we ' ll chock that on tho record as well. HIS LORDSHIP: My impression was that it was one but the note is not very clear on that point, you could check that. MR. CHASKELSON~ We 'll try and do that before tomorrow. HIS LORDSHIP : In fact I think my - thinking back again to the note, I think I again come back to my first impression, I think that the reference was that the driver said they should go to the B. P. Garage, that they in fact 30 nov r stopped at more than one, but in any event it is very easily checked~ / CROSS 0

60 136. Samson Radebe o OROSS EXAMINATION (CONT.): Then after you had been to the garage, you went to a house in Maledi? Yes. And you said that people went out and got petrol? Potrolo Petrol in one gallon petrol tins? --- And bottles I said o Gallon p6trol tins and bottles, how many gallon petrol tins were thore? --- My Lord, there was a big carton also carrying stuff, but two tins were carried 10 openlyo And a big carton, how big is the carton? -- In height very hear as high as this witness box (he indicates about twelve inches below this level).. About three feet? --- It was about 18 inches high. The width, the width of this board here, which is about three feeto Anything 81se besides that box and tho tins of petrol? --- Others carrying pieces of iron. Anything else? --- Dennis had a long knife in 20 his belt of his trousers. Anything else? That is what I saw at Maledi. Where did they put it. Whore did they put it when they got to the car? --- It was all put in the boot. All in the boot, was it all put into the boot? Some of the bottles went into the inside of the car and placed underneath thr seato 30 the car? And did th rest go in the boot? --- Yes. And did the; eleven people then got back into All the peonle got back into the car. I think you told us it was eleven, eleven or / twelve e o

61 137. Samson Radebe 0 twelve, I might be wrong on the figure but I got it to be eleven or twelve or something like that? --- I said they could hav been eleven or twelve, there were many. I didn ' t say that they were eleven. ~ NOW whore were you dropped before they went to the meeting, where did they drive to? --- It stopped close to the Mlamlamkumzi railway station. What time was that? --- For what time or what time. 10 At what time? --- I don' t know. Have you any idea at all? --- It could have been about 9 p. m. because..l'm certain they got me at 8 p. m., at Maledi o Why are you certain of the tim0 they got you? -- (Now what time wa s this)~ There at Maledi, he says they got him at 8 p. mo? That is an approximate time which I think it was more or less. But ' I'm c ~ rtain they got me at 8 o'clock,' you said, 20 I did not s ay that I was certain, I ~aid that it was eight. It was an approximate time, a time I guessed. But you said just a moment ago you were certain it was eight o'clock? --- I did not say I was c0rtain it was eight... HIS LORDSHIP: Yes, I think it was said o CROSS EXAMINATION (CONT.) : Well do you now deny you said you were certain it was eight? I did not look a.t the time I ha d no watch on me, thorefore I could not say what the time wa::j 30 But you just said a minute ago, and His Lordship wrote it down and we all 'v"lrote it down here, that you / were o

62 138 0 Samson Radebe 0 were certain it was eight o'clock? - -- This was a guessed time My Lordo ell why when you guess things you say you were certain about them? Why - it was a guessed time, but I went by 8 o'clock because I know more or less when certain trains arrive o When when you guess something do you say you were certain about it? --- Well I did not say I was certain about ito 10 You say that His Lordship made a mistake when he wrote down that you wore certain? --- I said it was at 8. I did not say with certainty it was eight. But your words were ' I was certain it was at~ HIS LORDSHIP : Mr. Cha skelson you made the point, he obviously said so, ho t s trying to explain i+ now or either accept it or not, after this - where do you take the witness from hore. MR. CHASKELSON : My Lord, it takes us to this stageo My Lord, this man is a person who apparently is willing 20 to say he is cortain about things about which he isn 't. HIS LORDSHIP: We'll have that point if you wish to make it an argument. CROSS EXAMINATION (CONTo): All right, so you got to tho meeting. At this place where the meeting was held, were there other people there or were you the first people there? Thero were others there whon we arrivedo Now we are talking about th first day? --- Yes. 30 Were thero many people there? --- There were many YGs o / Can....

63 Samson Radebe Can you give us an idea of how many? --- I cannot o Because I did not coun~ ~nemo No but we must have some idea~ Were there more than 10? --- Yes, more than 10~ More than 50? --- I did not count them, I cannot sayo 20. V'ore than 20? --- It was dark, there could be Were there more or less people than there were at 10 the second meoting? --- There were about the same. numbe~q About the same~ Now you said previously there were about 80 to 100 at the second meeting? --- Yes, and even that I cannot say with certainty that they were o I don't want you to give mo an exa~t number, bvt we just want to have an approximate idea of the number? It was dark th re, and I did not count any of themo Now you saj.d there was some talk about the leader't 20 HIS LORDSHIP: Mr. Chaskelson, are you proceeding to a further point., MR. CHASKELSON: Yes My Lord, I didn't notice the time. HIS LORDSHIP: I propose thenooooo MR. CHASKELSON: My Lord, perhaps Your Lordship could ask this witness to bring his - diroct this witness to bring his licence and his transport licence to Court tomorrow so that we can verify that, that might save us some time. He presumably has it and it will save us a lot of time 30 HIS LORDSHIP: Yes, will you bring your transport licence tomorrow with you to COl~t? --- My Lord, after / this 0 ~ c

64 140" Samson Radebe. this inst~nce the car was stolen, but I reported this to tho police, that I have some document I can prove. I still have to get some duplicates from the licensing departm8nt, but I have a document to prove that I have these licences. Mr. Chaskelson I don' t know how far that will assist you. MR. CHASKELSO N: My Lord, I would just like to see what it is, there is a small point, but if this witness 10 HIS LORDSHIP : If you hold this document relating to your lic'ence in some way, bring it along? Yes. COURT ADJOURNED. ON RESUMING : 11th J une, 1963~ 10 0 I clock. SM,mON RADEBE, sworn, states: CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. CHASRELSON (CONT. ): Have you 20 got those documents that you were asked to bring today? I had to go to the Licensing Office, for those duplicates, the Court adjourned at 4, and I could not get hold of my duplicates. 30 But you said that you had vomo othor documents? This is \ hat I got at the police station, after I was arrested at Vereeniging. This relates to your driving licence? --- That is correct. That is quite true. I was found driving without a driver ' s licence. Have you fot any documents to show that that vehicle can be used as a taxi? / HIS

65 141. Samson Radebe. HIS LORDSHIP: Do you wish to hand it in Mr. Chaskelson? MR. CHASKELSON: No, My Lord o CROSS EXAMINATION (CONT.): Well the owner of the car has those documents~ Oh, I see, is the taxi registered in Ndlovu's name? --- Yes. I see. You know I find it strange that these people should have signalled you out for the honour of using your car? --- Well they did not only pick me out 10 I was the only car, at the taxi rank at the time, and that is why they came to me. Did you know any of them at all before? --- No, I did not know any of them. Are you quite sure about that? --- I am. HIS LORDSHIP: Whom did you refer to? MR. CHASKELSON: The people in the car. CROSS EXAMINATION (CONT.):---There was not one I knew of those that got into my car. That was the man you referred to n.s Dennis, you 20 don't know him. And all the other twolve people who you said got into the car? --- There was not one I knew. But you told us they called you brother? -- Yes, they did. Is that not a friendly gr eeting? --- It is custom even if a person is not your brother to call him brother. You sec it is so strange they used your car, they take you to the meeting, and they flake you a member of a group that has to go to town? --- Yes, that is 30 {hat they did. But how could all that happen if you were a / complete.

66 Samson Radebe. complete stranger to them? --- I said so in my stat~ment and I repeat it here today that I am.guarded, I could not move about at leisure. Which statement did you say this in? --- In what I said yesterdayo What you said yesterday. In the car, did they threaten you at all? --- No, nobody threatened me in the car. Didn't you protest? --- I was afraid to speak. 10 Do you m an the people just got into your car and you didn' t say a word? --- Dennis was the speaker and I did not answer him. Didn' t you even say to him 'why did you take my car'? Dennis had told me that he was not going to listen to anything from me, and h do sn't want to hear anything. I wanted to know something and Dennis told mo, you get away from the steering wheel, I ' ll drive the car from here, you get into the back seat. And you just went quietly into the back without 20 mying a thing? --- I did. Isn' t that very strange, all you had to say to him is ' why are you taking my car'? He had pointed out many people to me and had told me they were the soldiers. Vfuen they were in the car, did they speak to you about the meeting? --- Nobody spoke to me about the moeting.. Did you know you were b,ing taken to a meeting? I did not. All I knew was they were 30 going to fight. Did they ask you ~hat your views were about / the.

67 143') Samson Radebe. the matter? --- No. All they said ve are going to fight. Didnit they ask you whether you agree with them, whether jtou wanted to fight? --- No. Did they try to make frionds with you? --- They didn' t say to me that they wanted to make friends with me. Did they know who you were, did they know your name? --- No, they didn't know me. Did they ask you your name? --- No. Never asked you what your n~ was? --- They did not. Do you mean to say they si ply took you to the neeting without asking you who you were, or what you were? --- They did not. ~lliat about the next day, when you were with them the whole day, did they ask you then? --~ Aft er we got to Sepo ' s home, I was asked what my name was. Did they then try to make friends with you? -- I was asked whether I was workingo What else. --- I told them what my name was and I told them where I was employed, Where do you work, where do s he work, where did he work? --- I was working for Ernest Ndlovu. And is that what you. told them? --- I dido Did they ask you that day whether you agreed with what Th.'1d be on said at the moeting? --- Noo I find it so difficult, here are the people who didn't know you, who thought that you might go to the police, yet they make you a member of their group? They did that / Did oo ~

68 144. Samson Radebe o Did they make no more enquiries about you other than to ask your name and where you worked? --- My guards asked me what my name was, I've already said so. But besides that, they asked you what your name was and where you worked? --- That is what my guards asked me. Didnit they makg any other enquiries to find out about you? --- No. To find out whether you were a reliable person 10 who could be trusted or not? Well some did mention truthfullness in me and others had a doubt in me. How do you mean some mentioned truthfullness? Well I said that I wanted to go because I was working for an employer and others said no we have no faith in this follow, he'll have us arrested. But those who expected truth in you, what did they say? --- When the others said they had no faith in me those others kept quiet. They kept quiet. Did they say why they had 20 truth in you? --- No, they did not. You are just a complete stranger who said nothing and they said they trust you? Is that so? Yes, others did say so. It was not really that they had truth in n8, that they could trust me, I wanted to go home and some said - shall we not let this fellow go, and others then said no, don't let him go. What did you mean when you said that some expressed truth in you? '-ell I supposo it is those that throught 30 they could Il-t fle go homo~ But did they express truth in you, or did they / just

69 1450 Samson Radebe. just simply say let him go home? --- Their actual words were - "Can we let this fellow go". But how do you mgan 'C an we let this fellow go' I don't understand that? --- It was those who suggested to the oth rs saying 'Can't we let this man go'. But I can't understand? --- I will not say that tbdy found truthfullness in me, but they wanted to know what the others thought of the mattero Why did you sat that some expressed truth 10 in you? --- fell why I did usc that word, there was a suggestion fro~ certain members of the party to let me go, and thereforo that could have been that they expressed truthfullness in me. Do you mean that people who didn't know you, who had threatened you and without speaking to you, were preparod to let you go and you could spoil all their plans? --- Here it comes to the saoe thing, that night others suggested that I should be kept in custody, others objected to that, they wanted that I should be killed. 20 That I can understand, but I can't understand, how somebody oould say 'Let's let him go ' - when he could undo all the plans and unless they had first asked you whether you agr oed with them and whether you were with them or not? --- I didn't know what they had in mind actually. Tell me did you - are you married? No. Who do you live with? At home. With whom? My parents. Did you send a message to your parents at 30 all on that day? (On what day is this)? The day you were being kept in custody? / I 0

70 146. Samson Radebe. I couldn't ~do out. so, I wasn't allowed to send a message Surely they must have done something, didn't they ask you where you lived? --- Yes, I was asked where by home was situated. I White City. And what did you tell them? --- I told them in 1)id you give them the address? --- No, they asked me for no address. 10 said White City. They said where do you live and I Tell me Samson, if that is so, how did they know where to take the car back to? --- when I got ho~e the car was home. That I cannot explain, How did tho car get there? The car - and this is what my father told me - HIS LOR1)SHIP: MR. CHASKELSON: an explana~io n, 1)0 we want that? CEO SS EXAMINATIO N (CO NT ) : that my fellow driver Perhaps we had better if he is giving My Lord, for what it is worth. Had gone to the Orlando 20 Police and r eported the matter, to the Orlando policce The detectives and me fellow driver went out looking for the car and it was found somewhere in Orlando. Ah: now we'll understand. ~ So your car was found somewhere by the police? --- Yes. I see. Were you worried when you heard that your car had been found by the police? --.- I was very pleased that the car was found. Surely you were worried, didn't you know the car had been used with the incidence the night before and this 30 is your car and the police found it? --- I was worried yes, that is why I went to the police station and / rcpnrtod