Yes, and then I went on sir, to instructions. I first used the word "code1, and then. I went on to instructions and guide-lines.

Transcription

1 mentioned it twice. ADV SCEABORT: ADV BIZOS: A code of conduct for interrogators. Yes, and then I went on sir, to instructions and guide-lines. I first used the word "code1, and then I went on to instructions and guide-lines. But the record will speak for itself sir. The record will speak for itself. I am not referring to the record Mr Bizos, I am referring to your question. Not to the record. ADV BIZOS; Yes. Yes. Your Worship before... I just want to make sure that your question is the proper question. ADV BIZOS: Your Worship, my note is this sir, "In relation to the protection of detainees, apart from the necessary steps taken", and if I recall correctly, although it isn't noted here, this was the inserting of bars. That the witness mentioned. And then he went on: "There are no instructions or guide-lines..." I have put in the windows, etc. And-then I used the word "code", no code of conduct for interrogators". Before I used the word "code" sir, we had that there are no instructions or guide-lines. W i t n e s s : If I may clarify Your Worship, if that was the answer given, I misunderstood the question, and replied as to "guide-lines" relating to interrogation. Instructions... Do you want to refer to the record Mr Bizos, on that particular point? ADV BIZOS: I have a recollection... C OURT: We will ask the operator to play back that... ADV BIZOS:.Yes. I don't mind if that is done sir, because I am fairly certain that that was the way I put it. But if the witness says that if he did say it, he misunderstood it, we will accept it for the time-being. But if he... COURT /...

2 896. H. Muller. I must tell you, I an also under a misunderstanding. If you did say that, and if it was said by the witness, I was under the wrong impression. ADV BIZOS: V/ell perhaps under the circumstances we should clarify it in fairness to the witness and everyone concerned sir. Tes. ADV BIZOS: Madam, could we just have that played back please? It is just before the bars on the windows. TAPE REPLAYED 10 ADV BIZ OS COITTIMJES: Brigadier, believe you me, that I have not had insight into your files, they are quite safe. But the information that we have, we have got from a public commission. And I want to read to you paragraph " of 0 Chapter 10 of the Rabie Commission Report, which says the foilowing "Die Kommissie het afskrifte van die tans geldende instruksies wat die Xommissaris van Polisie oor die behandeling van n artikel 6 aangehoudene aan lede van die mag wat bevelvoerende posisiesbeklee 20 uitgereik het ter insae gehad. In sommige van hierdie instruksies gedateer 1978, word daar ondermeer volledige voorskrifte rakende die mediese behandeling en sorg van aangehoudenes, hulle voeding, slaap en oefen geriewe neergele. Now we can assume that the Chairman of the Commission correctly reported what was placed before him Brigadier? --- Your Worship, if my answer created the impression that no instructions relating to the handling and to the safe custody of detainees was concerned, I apologise if the wrong impression 3< was created. Such instructions _do exist. I understood the

3 97. E. Muller, question to mean, was there a code formulating a mode of interrogation. Brigadier, we naturally have to accept for the timebeing the reason given by you that you mis-understood the question, but as part of the misunderstanding, it would follow that these instructions have hardly been in the forefront of your mind. -- I am, apart from existing instructions, I am very adamant on my own instructions, as to the handling and the safe-guarding of detainess of this nature. The question was this Brigadier, that if indeed you 10 misunderstood the question, the instructions given in 1978 apparently in a formal document which was placed before the Eabie Commission, was not in the fore-front of your mind. -- If it wasn't in the fore-front of my mind,your Worship, it must have been, because the principles requested, or the principles prescribed in those instructions were normal practice. Have you got a copy of those instructions? Because it deals with sleep, food, exercise and how a detainee is to be properly treated, according to the report of the learned 20 Commissioner. --- There should be instructions of those kind in my file, yes sir. Now could you please make those available to us as soon as possible so that we can have a look at them Brigadier? Yes Your Worship, I have no objection. Now Brigadier, when did it first come to your notice that Dr Aggett was taken out of his cell and was in the interrogation room for part of the 28th, the whole of the 29th, the whole of the 30th and part of the 31st of January? When did it come to your notice that this had happened to Dr Aggett? --- It 30 is difficult to recall Your Worship, but I think, and this is quoting /...

4 898. H. Muller, quoting from memory, on the day after his death sir. The day after his death. Who did you hear this from? -- Upon information received from the officers investigating the inquest and...yes, from the officers investigating the inquest. I beg your pardon? -- From the officers then detailed to investigate... ADV BIZOS: Specifically from whom? --- If I remember correctly, and again this is from memory, Colonel van Schalkwyk sir. 10 If you had known Brigadier, that your men intended keeping Dr Aggett in the interrogation room for over 60 hours, continuously, at the end of January, would you have authorised it? -- Depending on the circumstances your Worship, I may have authorised it. I could have forbidden it. For purposes of explanation, if this is permitted Your Worship, this does happen from time to time. One, for purposes of continuity at a given stage in interrogation, at times by the request of a detainee to finalise his interrogation. Then again, with permission of the Court Your Worship, I must qualify, 20 it does not imply that an interrogation takes place without any break during that whole period. The detainee, under circumstances of that kind, is granted an opportunity to rest, he is granted an opportunity to exercise should he so wish, he is given meals. I personally, very much against the wish of a given detainee Your V/orship, spent a whole night in the company of a detainee, whom I made as comfortable as I could in my own office to sleep, because I thought it expedient. There is nothing sinister in this Your Worship. It happens, $( and I assume that this is - that this applies to this particular period as well. Well, /

5 i 899. H. Muller. Veil, let's take some of your reasons and examine them Brigadier. Are you seriously suggesting that this over 60 hour presence of Dr Aggett in the interrogation room was at his request? -- It is very possible Your Worship, yes. Veil, is that a serious suggestion Brigadier? -- Yes Your Vorship. Have you read his statement of complaint? Eave you read his statement of complaint to Sgt Blom. --- No Your V/or ship. Never!? --- No, I haven't seen it to this day Your 10 Vorship. Veren't you in Court when it was read out? -- No Your Vorship. It was never read to you in consultation? -- No Your Vorship. Veil, let us then dispose of one of your reasons Brigadier. Because Dr Aggett says about this: "I was kept awake since the morning of the 28th of the first, '82, to the 30th of the ' first, '82. During the night of the 29th, Vhitehead and another security sergeant whose name I don't know, and another 20 black male, also a policeman, were present, where Lieutenant Vhitehead blindfolded me with a towel. They made me sit down and handcuffed me, etc." Vould you suggest, in view of that information, that Dr Aggett - it was at Dr Aggett's request that he was kept in the interrogation room for more than 60 hours? -- It is still possible that he was kept there at his own request, yes Your Vorship. His own request. Veil did you ask the men who were * responsible for keeping him in the interrogation room for over 60 hours, whether it was at his request? -- No Your 30 Vorship.

6 Would you not find it strange that if it was at his own request, he should complain about it to Sgt Blom? -- It was beyond the scope of my activities at that time Your Worship, I had entirely withdrawn myself from any form of investigation that was being instituted. No, but Brigadier, is this what you call intensified interrogation? -- Not of necessity Your Worship. Well, in some of your affidavits...the affidavits filed by your men, it is called "intensified interrogation". "Inten- sief" in Afrikaans, is that intensive? --- Intensive. 10 Intensive interrogation. -- It could be Your Worship, as I mentioned, that at a given stage in interrogation, for purposes of continuity, it might be necessary. It could be Your Worship, as I also mentioned in evidence, that the 0 detainee being questioned at that time, could be desirous of having the interrogation finalised and request that the matter be finalised in such a way. And then complain on the first available opportunity for being kept awake for almost 72 hours? -- I am not qualified to comment on that sir. 20 Now assume that he did not request it, on the facts of this case, we know that Dr Aggett had been in detention since the 27th November. What would have been the hurry on the 2Sth, 29th, 30th and 31st? -- It strengthens my assumption Your Worship, that it was at his request. That it was at his request. But again you are ignoring the fact that he complained about it a couple of days later? _ This, once again Your Worship, I am not qualified to comment. And in none of the statements filed, in none of the 30 statements filed by your men, does anyone mention that it was

7 901. H. Muller, at his request. I don't know what the other people say in their statements Your Worship. And in his statement Mr Whitehead, on page 146, says that he decided: "As gevolg hiervan het ons besluit dat Dr Aggett nou meer intensief ondervra moet word". -- This is possible. This is one of.the possibilities of an interrogation of this kind Your Worship. I do not know what the circumstances were appertaining at that time, or in this specific case. Now please tell us, from your memory, is there anything in those instructions in 1978, about a detainee being entitled 10 to be away from his interrogators? -- Yes Your Worship. What do they say? --- From memory Your Worship, and this is vague on that, the instructions are that interrogators are to refrain from interrogating for undue lengthy periods. Now this word "intensive interrogation"... how long do you say you have been at John Vorster Square Brigadier? --- Six years Your Worship. 4» You know what can happen when this intensive interrogation is applied to someone, don't you? As a result of a case in the Supreme Court of Cynthia Mthombikayise Mongwene against 20 the Minister of Police. Were you concerned with that Brigadier? I don't recall Your Worship. Well, let me remind you. She was detained and submitted to this intensive interrogation, of not being allowed to sleep... Is this a reported case Mr Bizos? ADV BIZOS: No, it is not. I will give Your Worship the case number. Case No /78. Do you recall what the result of that case was Brigadier? -- I don't recall the case at all Your Worship. 30 Well, the Minister paid her R6 500,00 damages and costs. ~~ As /...

8 --- As a result of the interrogation Your Worship? As a result of the pain and suffering that she sustained during the period of intensive interrogation at John Vorster Square. --- Resulting from the interrogation Your Worship? -Yes! From standing on swollen feet, and abused whilst this was being done. Substantially similar to that described by Dr Aggett. --- This is contrary to my instructions Your Worship, to interrogators. Mr Bizos, have you got the particulars of that particular case? ^ APV BIZOS: Yes. Is it available to this...did it happen at John Vorster Square? And when did it happen? ADV BIZOS: At John Vorster Square. Is it relevant to this matter? # ADV BIZOS: Yes, it is sir, because of the state of knowledge of the witness sir and the precautions... ADV BIZOS: So you are testing his state of knowledge? His state of knowledge and what precautions were taken as a result of this intensive - what may happen if 20 intensive interrogation... Well I will allow you to test his state of knowledge Mr Bizos. ADV BIZOS: Thank you sir. You were the head. Do you mean to say that this would have happened in 1978 without you knowing about it? --- It is possible Your Worship. ADV SCHABORT: Your Worship, I am sorry, could I just ask my learned friend,vb haven't seen that judgment, we do not know of that judgment, may we perhaps just ask him for a copy of $0 the judgment so that we can perhaps just also be a part of... COURT /

9 903. H. Haller. I will also appreciate it if I could have a copy of the documents, or the judgment Mr Bizos. ADV BIZOS: We will get...there was no judgment sir, because they paid by consent, R ADV SCEA3CRT: Yes. Now we know that sir, but we do not know when the alleged interrogation took place sir. Was that during 1978 or was it well before that date? Because the case might only have been settled in ADV BIZOS: No, it is a 1978 case. ADV SCHABORT: A 1978 case, yes. Yes, but when did the 10 interrogation take place? ADV 3IZ0S: Your Worship, I will make a copy... It's a fine examination going on now Mr Bizos. ADV BIZOS: " I beg your pardon sir? # It's a fine type of examination going on now between c ouns el. ADV BIZOS: Yes, that is so. Your Worship, we will get a complete copy... I will adjourn, and please arrange for copies for everyone of us, if you don't mind. Copies of the documents. 20 I will give Mr... ADV BIZOS: Your Worship, I haven't got a complete set of the documents... I think we need the complete set Mr Bizos. You see, I think it is necessary to refer to everything from a document in its proper context. have all the documents. And we can only judge that if we If you don't mind. ADV BIZOS: Can I go onto something else? I am very anxious not to take up the Court's time. If I could leave it aside and come back to it. I am very anxious not to take up 30 Court's time. COURT /

10 904. K. Muller. Very well, you can go onto another point then Mr Bizos. ADV BIZOS: Now the cells are a couple of minutes away from the interrogation room? Correct? -- Yes Your Worship. Would there by any reason in keeping Dr Aggett in an interrogation room for a purpose other than interrogating him? --- Yes Your Worship. Why? -- He could rest, I would submit Your Worship, more comfortably in an office than in a cell, the necessary materials were available for rest. 10 What about his wanting his privacy and his absence from his interrogators? -- This could be granted Your Worship, he could sleep in a private office. Yes, but why not in the cell where he would be away from his interrogators? -- Circumstances of the interrogation at that stage might have been such Your Worship, that it was considered expedient to consider to carry on the interrogation upon the interrogator, or interrogatee, awakening, or indicating that he had rested sufficiently for the interrogation to carry on. 20 Without wishing to be facetious and with His Worship's permission, you wouldn't want to be cross-examined for 62 hours and sleep in the courtroom Brigadier? --- Without being facetious Your Worship, should it be expedient for the Court, I would have no objection. To sleep in the courtroom? --- To sleep in the courtroom. I have slept in much worse places than the courtroom Your Worship. Yes. But now, if there was...if his usual amenities were available...if your home xvhere you are supposed to sleep $0 is a few paces away, why wouldn't you have gone to sleep at

11 905. E. Muller. your home? --- I would hardly consider a cell a home. And I would like to argue Your Worship, that the facilities supplied under conditions such as I have attempted to explain, are much more comfortable than a cell. Is there a bathroom on the 10th floor? --- There is a bathroom sir. A bathroom? --- A washroom rather. There is no bath? --- ITo bathroom sir. Is there a shower room? --- No sir. Was a change of clothing taken from the cells up to the 10 10th floor for this 72 hour...or 62 hour stint? I don t know Your Worship. Now I am concerned 3rigadier, that I have your answer correctly, that you had no idea whatsoever that there was this long session with Dr Aggett until after his death --- That is correct Your Worship. And one can understand that in a case where one has to obtain information about the presence of a bomb somewhere, or some urgency, where this intensive interrogation may be necessary, but in the circumstances under which Dr Aggett 20 was detained and interrogated, can you envisage what the hurry was on the 28th to the 31st Brigadier? --- Numerous Your Worship, one being... Have you any information as to what it was? --- It was brought to my attention that during that period there was a possibility of other people, perhaps being...or the detention of other people perhaps becoming necessary from further information gleaned, as a possibility Your Worship. When were you given that information? ---- On the day after his death sir. 30 Well why did you not give us that information when you

12 906. H. Muller. were busy speculating as to why it might have happened? --- I wasn't given to understand Your Worship that this is the type of information that was being required. I was asked why this man was kept awake. And I tried to explain to the Court Your Worship, that there is a big possibility that not a matter of keeping him awake, but a matter of not taking him back to his cells, might well have been at his own request. It might have been for continuity. I am not qualified, I am not capable to elaborate on that sir. You see, but we know that the interrogators didn't even interrogate him at all between the 12th and the 19th January, do you accept that? --- If you state so sir, I will accept it. And from the 21st to the 24th. ---^ It is also possible sir. And we also have... we have also been furnished in the affidavit and in Dr Aggett's purported statements, what he was being interrogated about. And it really related to history, with whom he played rugby at school to with whom he was engaged in his trade union activities. So what would have been the reason, what would have been the reason for keeping him for 62 hours? --- The investigation could very well at that stage have reached the stage Your Worship, that it was expedient to finalise Dr Aggett's interrogation. But now all this is speculation on your part and information which you gained after his death Brigadier. Now if, what Dr Aggett says in his statement to Sgt Blom is correct, would you agree, that that was a gross violation of his rights? --- If what was stated is correct Your Worship, a violation to a degree. Well Again, if the assumption is that what is

13 907. E. Haller, quoted in his statement is correct, I could again argue that the request to have the interrogation finalised could have been his. I am asking you to assume that what Dr Aggett says in his statement in relation to the events of the 28th to the 3'lst is correct. -- I am assuming Your Worship. Yes. Don't you agree that that is a gross violation of his rights? --- No Your Worship. Well, do you say that to deprive a man of his sleep for almost three days is not a gross violation? -- I am uot saying that he was deprived of sleep for three days Your Worship. No, I ask you to assume Brigadier, that what Dr Aggett said is correct. -- Then it would he a deprivation, yes Your Worship. a gross deprivation of his rights? --- Yes Your Worship. And if he was assaulted during the process? -- It would be irregular Your Worship. Now we'll come to Mr Whitehead's statement alone in the violation of Dr Aggett's rights. But now, you only found out that there was this long interrogation after Aggett' after Dr Aggett's death? --- Correct Your Worship. How does that square up with what the Minister said on Wednesday, the 5th Hay? "Commanding officers and other senior officers bring regular visits to detainees and satisfy themselves that irregular methods are not resorted to"? --- "Regular" is not defined there Your Worship. I attempted to explain earlier on, on what basis visits to the IOth floor are brought by me. Now, if the commanding officer does not know until after

14 908. H. Muller, a tragic death has occurred, Brigadier, that a detainee had been kept for over 62 hours in the interrogation room, would that be within the spirit of"commanding officers and other senior officers bring regular visits to detainees and satisfy themselves that irregular methods are not resorted to"? -- Could be, yes Your Worship. Now surely Brigadier, the danger of having a couple of interrogators and a detainee alone without any other senior officer present, on the 10th floor, is potentially dangerous. For the detainee? --- It must be explained to the Court at 10 this time Your Worship, that it wasn't a single interrogation being carried on at the time. It was a lengthy and a complex investigation and people were being interrogated all the time. Do you say that during that weekend there were other people being interrogated on the 10th floor? --- It is possible Your Worship. 0 But do you know whether that was so? --- No sir. As far as we have been able to ascertain from the Occurrence Book, no other detainees were booked out to the 10th floor during that period. --- It is possible Your 20 Worship. Now if what Dr Aggett says is true, do you consider that a sensible and conciliatory method in order to gain the information required? --- Could you rephrase that? Yes. If what Dr Aggett complained about in relation to his treatment during this intensive interrogation, would you describe it as conciliatory and sensible? --- No sir. Now Brigadier, do you know, or have you ever tried to find out, from doctors or psychologists or psychiatrists, for how long and in what manner you can conduct this intensive 30 interrogation? --- No Your Worship.

15 909. E. Muller. Eave you ever given any advice to Lt Whitehead or any of your other officers that interrogated Dr Aggett, as to for how long they could conduct this intensive interrogation? --- Not specific Your Worship, but in general. Well could you please tell us what your instructions to them were? --- In the sense that, for the humane treatment of a detainee, he is to be given rest when necessary, or sensible interrogation to be conducted, excessively lengthy interrogations should not be conducted. That the necessary rest, the necessary food be supplied as required, and as laid 10 down. Now do you agree that the relationship of the interrogator and the detainee is an adversary situation? You know what I mean by that? On the contrary Your Worship. The relationship between a detainee and a "questioner" if I may put it that way, becomes a very friendly one. Yes, I suppose it can. The interest of the interrogator is to obtain information which he believes the detainee has. --- Yes Your Worship. 20 The interest of the detainee, on the assumption that he has information which he wants to withhold, is to keep it back. -- Yes Your Worship. That's what I mean. Don't you agree that the relationship between interrogator and detainee is primarily one of different interesos and a conflict?o Of conflicting aims Your Worship. Yes. The success of the interrogator is to obtain information which the detainee would want to hold back? Yes Your Worship. ^0 And the success of the detainee who has this information to /....

16 910. H. Muller, to disclose, which he has not yet disclosed, is the opposite. -- Yes Your Worship. So therefore the two are in what we may term, in a conflict situation. --- Relating to their aims, yes Your Worship. Yes. Now do you consider it to leave it to the interrogator's discretion as to how long he can keep a detainee in the interrogation room in that conflict situation without a specific guide-line? --- Your Worship, I have stated that the request, or more than a.request, the instruction is that 10 the treatment of a detainee under circumstances of this kind is to be as humane as is possible. Ee is to be granted the opportunities to rest. He _is to be given the necessary food and tea and other facilities at the times /when this is necessary. It _is necessary for a successful interrogation that a rapport of goodwill develop between the interrogator and interrogatee sir. Well, if we accept Dr Aggett's statement, Mr Whitehead failed miserably.in that regard. But let us return to the question. Once you have that conflict situation, is it a 20 proper safeguard for the benefit of the detainee to leave it in the discretion of the interrogator as to how long the detainee will remain in the interrogation room? --- With the degree of - for lack of a better word Your Worship - the degree of faith I had in my interrogators and in members of my staff and have, yes sir. But you know Brigadier, that the rights of people depend upon procedural safeguards. Do you accept that? --- Yes sir. Why was there not a limit placed on Mr Whitehead in 30 order to safeguard any desire to do the things that Dr Aggett

17 911. E. Muller, says he did? By saying that you will not have Dr Aggett in the interrogation room or any detainee, for longer than so many hours? Vould that not have been an admirable safeguard in order to protect the detainee? -- Bad it been brought to my notice that this was on the instigation and at the desire of the interrogator solely, and had I had knowledge of it, I would have acted sir. Right. But now we have the affidavit of the interrogator that it was his decision to have this intensive interrogation of Dr Aggett. point at least. So let us accept his oath in relation to that Mr Vhitehead says, and I've given you the page number, that it was his decision to do it. Nov; having those facts, do you agree that a guide-line, a specific guide-line to Mr Vhitehead, "That you can have Dr Aggett here for interrogation

18 1 * H. Mul1er Having those facts, do you agree that a guideline, a specific guideline to Mr. Whitehead that you can have Dr. Aggett here for interrogation, but you will not have him in the interrogation room for longer than x-hours would have been some protection for Dr. Aggett? Yes your worship, but then again I do not consider myself gualified to state what brought Lieutenant Whitehead to this decision. If I may surmise Sir, it could have been a decision reached upon a reguest by the interrogatee, it is possible your worship. (10 But brigadier, it would appear that you were not even informed that this unusual step of subjecting Dr. Aggett to the presence of Mr. Whitehead for over 62 hours was going to take place? --- I was not informed. 0 How does that sguare up with what we started with that commanding officers and other senior officers bring regular visits to detainees and satisfy themselves that irregular methods are not resorted to, if they don't even bother to ask you whether they can adopt this unusual procedure of having intensive interrogation? --- The onus is (20 on the regular visits of the commanding officer and not on the duty of the interrogater your worship, if I read correctly, or if I understand correctly. If the commanding officer doesn't even know that this unusual step is going to be taken of having a detainee in the interrogation room for over 62 hours, how can it be said that the guideline that commanding officers and other senior officers bring regular visits to detainees and satisfy themselves that irregular methods are not resorted to, how is that fulfilled if they don't even ask you/...

19 ^ * H. Muller you, that they are going to adopt this extraordinary procedure? --- Again your worship, as happened yesterday, this is a hypothesis. Regular is not defined. Regular I consider to be visits at such times as I consider was as I deem necessary regular in the sense that I surprise interrogaters upon my visits, a regular prescribed visit every given hour would serve no purpose. Once they didn 11 tell you that they were going to do this during this week end, they might even have done it in order to avoid your supervision? --- It is a theore- (10 tical possibility your worship. Has it never come to your notice that this guestion of protection of detainees is a matter which has been scientifically studies and the evidence is available for all to see in the Parker and in the Bennett Commissions? --- That this has been the subject of considerable debate yes your worship. We are not talking about debate, we are talking about scientific investigation? --- No I am not aware of any scientific investigation. (20 Have you ever heard of the Parker Report? --- No. Have you ever heard of the Bennett Report? --- No. Have you ever seen the rules and regulations for the protection of detainees in Northern Ireland? --- No. Or elsewhere? --- No. Is the position then that we leave it to the absolute discretion of Lieutenant Whitehead during the period 28 to 31st to do as he pleases with Dr. Aggett without any supervision? --- Without the knowledge of a possible visit, yes your worship. (30 There/...

20 J t: H. Mu11er There is one other aspect that I want to take up. Do you yourself act as interrogater brigadier? Many : years ago your worship. But as a senior officer in the security police, the f. t technigue must be well known to you? --- Yes your worship. I want to ask you a number of guestions brigadier and for that purpose I want you to make an assumption, that ' [ you as the interrogater believe that the detainee has important information and in good faith you believe it, but unfortunately as it may happen, you are wrong because the (10 detainee has not got that information. L e t s make that assumption brigadier, how do you go about interrogating that person? --- Your worship this differs from individual I to individual, I as an individual engaged in an interro ~f> L r^ gation would not think of interrogating a person without having prior knowledge of the possible existence of knowledge in the mind of the person to be interrogated. I would do my utmost to gain the confidence of the detainee under circumstances of that nature. During the course of an interrogation, be it lengthy or be it short, a rapport (20 develops and an experienced interrogater develops a feeling i [ r i i and he can eventually in weighing what is being said to him by an interrogater against information gleaned from other people interrogated from knowledge that he has available, whether the truth is being told or not. Many or rather, if you would permit me to correct myself, detainees have already been released your worship, without having ever made a satisfactory statement. If I may cite an example, the name of Dr. Liz Floyd was mentioned here Y in Court yesterday by you Sir, to this day Dr. Liz Floyd (30 has/...

21 4. H. Muller has not made a satisfactory statement. I'll come back to my question. A satisfactory statement is that which satisfies the interrogater? --- The commissioner. The commissioner but the commissioner relies on the interrogater? --- Correct. A satisfactory statement is satisfactory to the interrogater. In the hypothetical example that I have given, or we can even take Dr. Flloyd sitting behind us here. If the person has no information to give, is inno- (10 cent, how does the interrogater deal with him? MR. SCHABORT: Your worship, with great respect, I believe this is very interesting Sir, but we would submit that 0 this would rather fall within the scope of a commission of enquiry into detention in general. I do not now know Sir how this could assist you in making any finding in terms of section 6 in this case and on that basis Sir, we must object to this line of cross-examination. This involves side issues Sir, issues and matters of general interest and perhaps importance but which are really in our (20 submission Sir, not relevant to this enquiry. Mr. Bizos, objection sustained. Please move on to another question. MR. BIZOS: Your worship I would like to be heard on this with the greatest respect. Please move on to another question Mr. Bizos if you don't mind. M R. BIZOS: I'll put it this way your worship. Brigadier have you read Dr. Aggett's statement of the 8th of January? --- I haven't had the opportunity to read it yet Sir, no. (30

22 5 H. Muller I want you to please take an assurance from me to this effect that it discloses no offence committed by Dr. Aggett. --- This could well be your worship, but the investigation that was being carried on was, and again this would probably need gualification your worship, this was an investigation relating to a conspiracy and not necessarily to a specific act relating to a specific transgression of a specific law. It is a large investigation implicating many deeds. The one amplifying the other, the one assisting in the proof of the other and in (10 that sense a statement which does not disclose the commission of a specific offence might very well still have been of use in an investigation of a conspiracy. If I 0 make myself clear, I know your worship this is probably as clear as mud, but this is, as I am trying to explain.. I'll repeat my guestion brigadier. From the 15th of December when the interrogation of Dr. Aggett started to the 8th of January when his first statement was signed he was interrogated for over 70 hours, will you accept that? --- It is possible yes your worship. (20 And I am putting to you that that statement discloses no offence having been committed by Dr. Aggett nor that he was party to any conspiracy, nor that he was able to give any relevant evidence to any trial in which any conspiracy was alleged by any other persons. --- The purpose of taking a statement from a person, or of interrogating a person, is not to get him or to cause him to implicate himself of necessity your worship. It is conducted to elicit facts and my submission is that the reason that Dr. Aggett was interrogated was because certain facts (30

23 6 H. Mu H e r gathered from other sources and by other means were known to the people responsible for the investigation. You signed the warrant for the detention of Dr. Aggett? --- Correct your worship. Were you not the person who was going to decide whether he was going to be released or not, or recommend his release? --- Recommend his release. Didn't you apply your mind to the statement that was produced after over 70 hours of interrogation as to whether this was a satisfactory statement or not? --- I (10 was satisfied that it was not a satisfactory statement. But you did not even read it? --- I mentioned yesterday your worship that I was kept informed on a day to day basis as to development of the investigations. This is hardly consistent with your evidence that you were not told about the 62 hour interrogation. Brigadier, was it your duty to decide whether or not a satisfactory statement had been made by Dr. Aggett or not? --- This would primarily have been a decision for the investigating officer your worship. (20 Don't you supervise that decision? --- In general yes your worship. How can you decide as to whether the detention of a particular person is to continue or not without reading his statement? --- Hypothetically your worship I did not read the statement, but again hypothetically, by a mere statement to me that this detainee is up to this point still not answering guestions satisfactorily or guestions which could assist in the investigation. This is not the affidavits that your men have made. (30

24 7 H. Muller Would you like me to read what Captain Naude says? Captain Naude was responsible for taking that statement. Did Captain Naude make a report to you as to whether he considered that statement satisfactory or not? --- I cannot recall having been made,a statement to. But wasn't he the person who was responsible for the interrogation of Dr. Aggett? --- At a given time I should imagine he was. Not at a given time. ---At a given time yes. Yes but specifically from the 15th of December to (10 the 8th of January, who was responsible for the interrogation... Mr. Bizos, please control yourself otherwise I will have to do it and I would not like to do it. MR. BIZOS: I ll try. Brigadier, we know that from the 15th of December to the 8th of January, according to the affidavits placed before his worship, Captain Naude was responsible for the interrogation of Dr. Aggett? --- If this is stated in the affidavits I'll accept it as correct. (20 Don't you know who was responsible for the interrogation of Dr. Aggett as the commanding officer of the security police at John Vorster Sguare? --- Your worship I have stated this time and time again, I was not and I would like to say, not in capitals, and underline it, I was not actively engaged in the investigation of this case your worship. THE COUR ADJOURNS FOR TEA.

25 8 * H. Muller ON RESUMPTION: H. MULLER: (Still under Oath) CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. BIZQS: (Cont.) Brigadier, you told us that you did not read the statement of Dr. Aggett which is before his worship on pages 190 to 216? Correct your worship. Did you read the other draft statements supposedly made by Dr. Aggett? --- The very last one yes.your worship. When did you read that? --- After his death. So you read none of his statements before his death?( No your worship. And who reported to you about the progress being made? --- Major Cronwright your worship. * Did you yourself ever ask Captain Naude or Mr. Whitehead how the interrogation of Dr. Aggett was getting on? --- No your worship. Did you yourself ever report to anyone in higher authority than yourself as to how the interrogation of Dr. Aggett was getting on? --- From memory no your worship. Because you see I want to read to you paragraph ( of Chapter 10 of the Rabie Commission's Report. I don t know if your worship has a copy, we will make a copy of chapter 10 available in due course Sir. I don't have a copy I just want to make a note. M R. BIZQS: Yes, it is only chapter 10 in the main that we have anything... (voice drops to a whisper). The following is said brigadier. "In die eerste plek is aan ons gese is daar ministeriele kontrole. Die minister word voortdurend op hoogte gehou van arrestasies, die gronde daarvoor, die vordering wat met die ondervraging (30

26 9 H. Muller gemaak word en die behandeling van die aangehoudende ont vang. Die minister is teenoor die openbare mening verant woordelik vir enige moontlike magsmisbruik of vir enige moontlike wanpraktyke wat met aanhoudings ingevolge art. 6 verband hou. In die lig van die kritiek wat n wantoepassing van die artikel kan ontlok, kan. dit aanvaar word dat hierdie verantwoordelikheid nie gering is nie." Now, were you aware that the commission was assured that the minister is informed of the progress of the interrogation? --- Not necessarily of the interrogation of an (10 individual your worship, of the progress of an investigation of which an interrogation is a sub-division. How can the minister decide as to whether there # has been a misuse of power if he is not informed, sorry don't let me take it from the general, I'll confine it to the specific. How could the minister have decided whether or not there was a abuse of power in relation to the detention and interrogation of Dr. Aggett if he had not been informed about the circumstances and progress of that interrogation? (20 MR. SCHABORT: Your worship, with respect, again we must ask you to disallow this guestion and this line of questioning. enguiry. We submit Sir that it is not relevant to this This witness is being asked to comment on that report, whether My Learned Friend is trying to impeach or trying to discredit this witness, or whatever he is attempting to do is not clear to us with respect, Sir and we submit that you should disallow these questions. COURT : But this guestion specifically refers to -the case of Dr. Aggett Mr. Schabort. (30 MR....

27 # 10 H. Muller M R. SCHABORT: May I ask you in what sense your worship, it is not clear to us that it specifically refers to Dr. Aggett. Mr. Bizos, would you mind repeating the question? MR. BIZOS: How could the Minister be assured of the misuse or lack of misuse of power in relation to the detention, continued detention and interrogation of Dr. Aggett if he was not informed about the progress of these interrogations? ~ ^ _ T h e Minister is informed... Do you still object to this question Mr. Schabort? (10 MR. SCHABORT: Your worship we submit that it cannot take this enquiry any further Sir, but we will abide by your approach to this. Thank you Mr. Schabort, I think I should allow this question. The witness has already started to answer the question and he may continue to answer it. --- With respect, may I request that it be put again then please.. fair request. There are so many interruptions, I think that is a M R. BIZOS: I don't mind, I very often forget what my own (20 question was. I don't blame a witness for wanting it repeated Sir. How could the minister decide whether or not there was an abuse of power in relation to the detention, continued detention and interrogation of D r. Aggett if reports were not made to him in the manner the commission was assured it was usually done? Commission Mr. Bizos? M R. BIZOS: I'll delete it Sir. How could the minister have decided if no reports were made to him? --- Reports are (30 being/...

28 H H. Muller being made, or reports are made to the minister by the safeguard built in by the Act, by an additional safeguard of an inspector of detainees, by, and I say this with absolute confidence your worship, my own integrity" in informing my head office whom I should imagine would in turn inform the minister of irregularities taking place. Brigadier, if you never applied your mind to the statement made by D r. \ Aggett, had no detailed information as to how he was being interrogated, how could you have given any indication or assurance about his continued (10 detention? --- It was not a matter of reporting or satisfying myself as to the statements and notifications of any given individual. Reports were made to me on the progress of the case in a global sense of the revelations as it were, if I may use that term your worship, of a given detainee at a given time, whether the interrogators and the investigaters and the investigaters were satisfied at that given time that all the facts that were reguired had at that time been elicited. Yes but brigadier, we know that the statement (20 made by Dr. Aggett by the 9th of January, was signed, was indexed by Dr. Aggett in relation to his friends his associates and fellow workers in the trade union, his lawful organisations that he was concerned with and that was done, certainly on the affidavits before us, before the middle of January After that indexing had taken place under the supervision of Captain Naude, you as the person who authorised the detention and on whose decision continuous detention was to take place, how could you have come to any conclusion about the matter (30 at/...

29 Historical Papers, Wits University Collection Number: AK2216 AGGETT, Dr Neil, Inquest, 1982 PUBLISHER: Publisher:- Historical Papers Research Archive Location:- Johannesburg 2013 LEGAL NOTICES: Copyright Notice: All materials on the Historical Papers website are protected by South African copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, or otherwise published in any format, without the prior written permission of the copyright owner. Disclaimer and Terms of Use: Provided that you maintain all copyright and other notices contained therein, you may download material (one machine readable copy and one print copy per page) for your personal and/or educational non-commercial use only. People using these records relating to the archives of Historical Papers, The Library, University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg, are reminded that such records sometimes contain material which is uncorroborated, inaccurate, distorted or untrue. While these digital records are true facsimiles of paper documents and the information contained herein is obtained from sources believed to be accurate and reliable, Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand has not independently verified their content. Consequently, the University is not responsible for any errors or omissions and excludes any and all liability for any errors in or omissions from the information on the website or any related information on third party websites accessible from this website. This document is part of a collection deposited at the Historical Papers Research Archive at The University of the Witwatersrand. 07:52:17 AM]