10 Q. And did you participate in those discussions?

Transcription

1 Adams - cross MR. DORSEN: Your Honor, I think I will just 2 move on to another area. It's getting too complicated. 3 THE COURT: All right. 4 (In open court) 5 BY MR. DORSEN: 6 Q. Mr. Adams, after you got back to Langley, 7 Virginia from Saigon am I correct that there were further 6 discussions and arguments over SNIE ? 9 A. Yes, there were. 10 Q. And did you participate in those discussions? 11 A. Yes, I did. 12 THE COURT: I am sorry. What is the date that 13 you are asking about? 14 MR. DORSEt\: In the period after he returned 15 from Saigon in September THE COURT: September 1967? MR. DORSEN: T~at's correct, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: All right. Q. And isn't it true t~at you addressed for two hours was it the United States Intelligence Board or the Board of National Estimates? Was there an orga,ization you addressed for two hours on the subject of the SNIE? A. I believe what you're referrinq to may be a cleanup session of the national intelligence estimate. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTER ';. U.S. COURTHOU SE FOLEY SQUARE, NEW YORK. N.Y

2 Adams - cross Basically I don't know what you're talking about, but I 2 think that's probably it. 3 Q. What did you do, Mr. Adams, in connection with 4 the preparation of the final version of SNIE l4.3-67? 5 A. I went back to -- I came back to CIA 6 headquarters, shaken by what had occurred in Saigon, and I 7 went up to the seventh floor office -- I believe it was in 8 October, early October; somewhere around in there, anyway 9 and they were having what is called a cleanup session of 10 the national intelligence estimate, and that is -- what 11 they mean by a cleanup session is usually after you have 12 gone through these things, after you have gone through 13 these exercises, a draft is really torn to pieces, and they 14 wanted to put it back together in some kind of sensible 15 order, a~d the meeting convened, and there was there I 16 believe the head of the Board of Natir.ral Estimates, an old 17 aentle ~a n b y the name of Sherman Kent, there was also a 18 gentleman by the name of James Graham, also of the Board of National Estimates, there was also another member of the Board of National Estimates by the name of Ludlow Montague, a~d the question came up as to how to put back the numbers section of the national intelligence estimate, and basically what I did was to describe to them what had happened during the Saigon conference, and I went on at considerable length as to what had happened there. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTER S. U.S. COURTHOUSE FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y

3 Adams - cross I told them, for example, that after Colonel 2 Hawkins, one of his subordinates, had argued for 65,000 as 3 the number of guerrillas that old Colonel Hawkins had come 4 around and tapped me on the shoulder and said "Sam, I 5 believe the real number is way higher than that, something 6 like 120, like double," and I relayed to the Board of 7 National Estimates what had gone on as far as the 8 guerrillas. 9 I also told them what had happened, which to me 10 is one of the most frightening things which had happened 11 during the session, I told them about a document which had 12 been shown to me or, rather, which I had handed to Colonel 13 Hawkins concerning some service troops in a district called 14 Long ~at district -- it's a district not far out of Saigon i5 and basically it listed the service troops by category in 16 Long Dat district, and it said, I believe, there were -- I 17 am ~aking up numbers a little bit now there were about medical soldiers, there were about 14 ordnance 19 s?ecialists, there were some intelligence specialists, and 20 chemists and whatnot, that were part of the service 21 structure of Long ~at district, and this happened during 22 the Saigon conference, and one of Colonel Hawkins' subordinates -- it was Lieutenant Colonel David Morgan had said that they had scaled down the number of service troops, and what I did is I took this document over to SOUTHER N DISTRICT REPORTER S. U.S. COURTHOUSE FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y

4 Adams - cross 7198 I Colonel Hawkins and I said "Okay, Colonel, show me how 2 you're going to scale this down," and what he had done 3 and I described this to the Board of National Esti~ates -- 4 what he had done is he crossed out the number of 20 medical 5 personnel and put in 3, he crossed out the number of 6 ordnance specialists, 14, and he put in 2, he crossed out 7 the number of military intelligence specialists, 6, 7, and 8 he put in 3, and he lowered the numbers completely 9 arbitrarily, in my view, until the number in that document 10 was half what it had -- the number he came up with was half 11 of what was in the document. 12 And I went -- as I was explaining what had gone 13 on to the Board of National Estimates people in that room 14 on the seventh floor in October, describing to them what 15 had ha?pened in September, I went through the documen t line 16 by line, telling them what had happened there and other 17 things that had gone on in the Saigon conference, a nd I 18 discussed this with them. 19 For exam?le, one of the board members, Ludlow 20 Montague, came up to me came to me during the discussion 21 and said "Sam, it makes my blood boil to see the military 22 cooking the books." And I said it made my blood boil too. 23 Another board member, I think it was Sherman Kent, who was the head of the board, said "Sam, have we gone beyond thc bounds of reasonable dishonesty?" And I SOUTHER N DISTRICT REPORTERS. U.S. COURTHOl'SE FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y

5 Adams - cross 7199 I said "Sir, we went beyond the bounds of reasonable 2 dishonesty last August." 3 And we discussed this and I told them everything 4 I could tell them about the -- about what had happened at 5 the Saigon conference, and basically nothing happened, 6 because as it was explained to me, we had to goalong with 7 the Saigon agreement, it having been signed by 8 Q. Mr. Adams, the SNIE was signed, was it not? 9 A. The SNIE was signed, yes. 10 Q. And it was signed by Richard Helms, the director 11 of the CIJ\, wasn't it? 12 A. It was signed by Richard ~elms, the director of 13 the CIA. 14 Q. And it was signed by Vic Admiral Rufus Taylor, 15 Deputy Director, Central Intelligence Agency? 16 A. Yes, sir. And I thought that was a sad day that 17 it was signed, because we had signed off on the numbers IE w~ic h ~ACV I believe had cooked in the Seotember conference. 19 THE COURT: Please limit yourself to answering 20 the question. 21 TilE I-!ITN::SS: Yes, sir. 22 Q. And it was signed off on by Thomas L. Hughes, 23 the Director of Intelligence and Research, Deoartment of State, is that correct, Mr. Adams? A. I don't know. If you have the list of signators - SO UTHER N D1STRlCT REPORTER S. U.S. COURTHOUSE FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK, N.Y

6 Adams - cross 7200 I Q. And it was signed off on by Lieutenant General 2 Joseph F. Carroll, Director, Defense Intelligence Agency, 3 wasn't it, Mr. Adams? 4 A. I can't tell you. I assume that that's -- 5 Q. And it was signed off by Lieutenant General 6 Marshall S. Carter, Director, National Security Agency, 7 wasn't it, Mr. Adams? 8 A. If you have the lines -- the signatories. 9 Q. And they signed off after they listened to you 10 tell everything you wanted to tell them, didn't they, Mr. 11 Adams? 12 A. It was signed off by them after I had informed 13 the Board of National Estimates how the Saigon conference 14 had been conducted. yes. 15 MR. DORSEN: Can we take a recess now, your 16 Honor? 17 Til! COIJRT: All right. The jury may go in the 18 jury room. 19 (Recess) 20 BY MR. DORSEN: 21 c. Mr. Adams, I would like to direct your attention 22 to an event that I believe you have no personal knowledge 23 of, and that relates to what was described in the broadcast as a meeting in the Pentagon, and I would like to read a rara9ra~h from JX I, page 14. SOUTHER N DISTRICT REPORTER S. U.S. COU RTH OUSE FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y. _

7 Adams - cross 7201 I TH~ COURT: You want a copy for the witness, is 2 that what you're looking for? 3 MR. DORSEN: A copy of the broadcast transcript, 4 your Honor. 5 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 6 THE COURT: Exhibit 1 is the transcript of the 7 CBS broadcast. 8 Q. ~r. Ad ams, would you please turn to page 14. It 9 says: 10 "Wallace: And so went the intelligence war. 11 Back in that summer of 1967, the CIA knew how unpopular its 12 cause was, trying to force a reluctant Washington to accept 13 the reality of a far larger war. But it had no idea as to 14 what length the military was prepared to go to keep the 15 estimates of enemy strength under 300,000 men. 16 "CBS Reports has learned that in the midst of 17 the national intelligence estimate General Westmoreland's IB representatives met here at the Pentagon and commenced 19 arbitrarily to slash MACV's own official estimates of Vietcong units. "It may be that Westmoreland knew nothing about these specific cuts, but they were carried out by his officers, who were attem;:>ting to keep the total at the level dictated by their commander. "On e of those who reluctantl y participated in SOUTHER N DISTRICT REPORTER S. U.s. COURTH OUSE FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.\'

8 Adams - cross 7202 I that cutting was Colonel George Hamscher." 2 Mr. Adams, from whom did you receive the 3 information relating to the little room in the Pentagon of 4 the people who were present? 5 A. The two basic witnesses that I talked to, people 6 who said they were there, were now Colonel Barrie Williams 7 and now Colonel George Hamscher. 8 Q. Now, Mr. Adams, did Colonel Hamscher and Colonel 9 Williams tell you prior to the broadcast whom they believed 10 were at the session, the one described in the broadcast? 11 A. The only clear recollection they had is that the 12 other was there. In other words, Hamscher remembered 13 Williams was there, Williams remembered that Hamscher was 14 there, and both of them remembered that Colonel Graham was 15 there. 16 Q. ~ow, is it correct, Mr. Adams, that both Barrie 17 Williams and George Hamscher at one time told you that they 18 placed Colonel Gains Hawkins at that meeting? 19 A. What happened was I believe this was with 20 Colonel George Hamscher. Colonel Hamscher told me that he 21 remembered 3arrie Williams being there, he remembered 22 Colonel Graham being there, at the meeting in the narrow 23 room of the Pentagon. 24 I then went over a list of names with Colonel 25 Hamscher, asking could this one have been there, could that SOUTHER N DISTRICT REPOR TERS. u.s. COURTHOUSE FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y

9 Adams - cross 7203 lone have been there, and I believe it was then that Colonel 2 Hamscher said yes, he might have, yes, he might have, and I 3 put these people down there. 4 For example, as I recall, he indicated to me 5 that Colonel Hawkins may have been there, and I put this 6 doun in my notes. Later I found out that it was almost 7 certainly impossible for Colonel Hawkins to have been there, 8 so I crossed him out. 9 But the only people that he remembers definitely 10 as being there, Colonel Hamscher remembers definitely as 11 being there, were Colonel Williams and Colonel Graham. 12 Q. But didn't Colonel Hamscher tell you that he 13 believed that Colonel Hawkins was present at that session? 14 A. No, as I say, he told me in no uncertain terms 15 that Da rrie Williams was there, because I remember he said 16 t,at he looked over at Barrie several times when the 17 cuttin9 was going on, they both sort of shrugged, and 18 things li ke that, and he remembers Colonel Graham as the 19 person doing the cutting, and he -- and I was trying to 20 find out who else might have been there as well, and I 21 think he said, well, it might have been Colonel Hawkir.s might have been there too. Q. What about General Godding, might he have been there too? TilE COURT: Sustained as to form. SOUTHER N DI STR ICT REP O RTER ~, U. S. COURTHO LTSE FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y

10 Adams - cross Q. Did Colonel Ilamscher tell you that General 2 Godding may have been there too? 3 A. Well, as I said, the way I got the story from 4 Colonel Hamscher is that he told me in no uncertain terms 5 that Colonel Gra~am was there and Barrie Williams was there, 6 because he can remember precisely where -- seeing them 7 there, and then we -- I tried to figure out if there was 8 anybody else in the room too, and I asked him, well, could 9 Colonel Hawkins have been there, and he said well, he might 10 have, and I said could General Godding have been there, and 11 he said, well, that might be the case too. But the ones 12 that he really specifically remembered were Colonel 13,;i 11 iams and Colonel Graham. 14 Q. Anybody else that he said might have been there? 15 TH E COURT: You're asking whether there is 16 anyone el se ~ R. DO RSCH: That Colonel Ha mscher said might 18 have been in that little room in the Pentagon. 19 A. Not that I recall offhand. But as I said, he 2C remembered distinctly Graham and Williams, and I threw out other names at him, and he said he really couldn't remember, they might have been there. Q. But you told Mr. Crile that Colonel Hamscher told you that General Godding and Colonel Hawkins were t her e, didn't you, prior to the broadcast? SOUTH ERN DISTRI CT REPORT ERS. U.S. COUR TH OUSE FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y

11 Adams - cross A. I believe I might have indicated to George Crile 2 that at that time I thought it was possible that Hawkins 3 was there, but then I found out when I got Hawkins' letters 4 that he couldn't have been there, and -- 5 Q. Why couldn't he have been there? 6 A. Because he left on the -- well, according to 7 where I place the meeting. I think it almost certainly 8 happened toward the end of August, I am not sure, but 9 almost certainly, and Colonel Hawkins' letters indicate 10 that he left the Washington area on the 17th of August. 11 Q. Now, isn't it true that you were present at the 12 videotaping of Colonel Hamscher? 13 A. Yes, I was, yes. 14 Q. And do you recall that Mr. Crile asked Mr. 15 Ha ~ sc h er, Colonel Hamscher -- Exhibit 9, page "Now, 16 you were all sitting in that room. There was a general, 17 the re was a colonel, two lieutenant colonels and a ma j or. 18 They represent" MR. BOIES: Can we wait just a minute so I can 20 get a copy for context? 21 TilE COURT: Page? MR. DORSEN: 9464 of Exhibit 9. I am sorry, your Honor. It's Exhibit THE COURT: MR. DORSEN: Page? 9464 of the Dates numbering, pag e SOUTHER N DI STRICT RE POR TER ". U.S. COURTHOUSE FO LEY SQUARE. NE W YORK. N.Y

12 Adams - cross of the transcript, your Honor. 2 Your Honor, I am providing a copy of the 3 transcript to the witness. 4 o. I am reading from, Mr. Adams -- and if I have it 5 wrong, correct me -- about the middle of page I will 6 start again. This is Mr. Crile speaking. 7 "Now, you were all sitting in that room. There 8 was a general, there was a colonel, two lieutenant colonels 9 and a major. They represent -- one answers to the Joint 10 Chiefs of Staff, who answer to the command structure that 11 oversaw MACV in Saigon. Three of them work for General 12 \'Iestmoreland and MACV." 13 I'lho were the five people to whom Mr. Crile was 14 referring as you understood it, Mr. Adams? 15 MR. BOIES: Objection. 16 A. I really don't know. 17 THE COU~T: I am sorry. Was there an objection? ls MR. BOIES: Yes, your Honor. 19 THE COURT: Sustained as to form. 20 Q. Did you have an understanding at the time of the 21 interview of Colonel Hamscher as to whom Mr. Crile was 22 referring when he said "Now, you were all sitting in that 23 room. There was a general, there was a colonel, two 24 lieutenant colonels and a major"? A. Excuse me. What's the que~tion, sir? SO UTHER N DISTRICT REPOR TER S. U.S. COURTHOUSE FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y J020

13 .I\dams - cross Q. The question is do you know to whom Mr. Crile 2 was referring. 3 A. No, I really don't know. 4 Q. He was not referring to Colonel Hawkins, was he, 5 or was he? 6 A. I can't remember whether, when Mr. Crile asked 7 this question, whether -- at what stage this was, what the 8 stage of our knowledge was of the narrow room. I know that 9 we knew that Barrie Williams had been there and that George 10 Hamscher was there and that Colonel Hawkins was there. 11 NOw, who these others may be may be out of -- a 12 reflection out of my notes, which at the time were gotten 13 from Hamscher. I mean, the information in the notes was 14 got ten from Hamscher. 15 Q. I think you said Colonel Hawkins. Is it correct 16 that at one point you believed Colonel Hawkins was there 17 ann then you realized when you saw Colonel Hawkins' letters 18 in late 1981 that he couldn't have been there? 19 I wouldn't say that I believed that he was there. 20 I would say that I had -- that Hamscher had told me he may 21 have been there. Now, as I said, Hamscher remembered that he was, he remembered that Williams was, and he remembered that Graham was, because he mentioned all these -- those two other people distinctly in his account of the meeting to me. SO UTHERN OISTRICl REPORTER... U.S. COURTHOUS E FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y

14 Adams - cross 7208 I 2 3 When 1 asked him -- proposed the possibilities of who else might be, he said a couple of others might have been there too, and 1 believe he mentioned Godding and 4 Hawkins. 1 subsequently discovered Hawkins could not have B 9 10 been there. Q. Did you ever write down anywhere, Mr. Adams, a list of people whom Mr. Hamscher, Colonel Hamscher, told you were there, a list that included Colonel Hawkins? A. Yes, I believe I mentioned that in my notes. And as I say, the only ones he remembered distinctly were 11 Williams and Graham. He had conjectured these other people might be there because, as he told me, these were oeople that had been at the Saigon conference. Subsequently I found that Hawkins could not have 15 been there, that Hamscher's that when I raised the 16 possibility to Hamscher and he said he might have been that 17 Ha~scher was not accurate in that respect, Gains Hawkins ,:as not there. Q. General Godding -- A. But he had never said in an absolute way that Hawkins was definitely there, nor had he said that Godding 22 was definitely there. The only two he said that were 3 4 S definitely there were Williams and Graham. Q. Now, he did tell yo~, ~id he not, Colonel Hamscher, that one of the people whom he thought might have SOU THER N DISTRI CT REPORTER S. U.S. CQU RTH OL!SE FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y

15 Adams - cross been there was General Godding, is that correct? 2 A. When I ran past him the possibility of Godding 3 having been there, since Godding was a member of the MACV 4 delegation, he said he might have been. 5 Q. And you decided at some point, did you not, that 6 General Godding was not there? 7 A. Well, I have never really -- it's never really 8 been clear in my mind as to whether Godding was there or 9 wasn't there. 10 Clearly it seems to me Hawkins almost certainly 11 was not there, because I think the thing took place on the 12 28th of August -- it's a supposition based on my research 13 and if indeed it had taken place on the 28th of August, 14 Hawkins coule not have been there. 15 THE COURT: Godding, the question is about 16 Godding. 17 A. The possibility exists that Godding was there. 18 I asked Godding whether he was there and he said he wasn't. 19 Q. And you believed him? 20 A. I didn't know whether to believe General Godding 21 in that respect or not. I mean, it could have been he was 22 there and didn't remember. 23 Q. You thought, did you not, as of 1981, that 24 General Godding was basically honest, did you not? 25 A. I believe that General Godding has a -- is SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS. U.S. COURTH OUSE FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y. _

16 Adams - cross honest within certain contexts, that he -- that General 2 Godding's instincts are honest. I think that he has -- for 3 example, he told me repeatedly about his conversation with 4 General Westmoreland in early August He has not 5 backed off that story, as far as I can tell. And if he 6 said that he wasn't there, at this meeting in the narrow 7 room in the Pentagon, I tend to take him at his word, but I B don't know. He might have been there and not remembered it, 9 he might have been there and chosen not to tell me about it. 10 Q. You did tell Mr. Crile, after speaking with 11 General Godding, did you not, that you believe that General 12 Godding is basically honest? 13 A. Yes, I did tell George that I thought that 14 within certain contexts General Godding was honest, yes, 15 and I think that it's clear to me, since he has told me the story a~out his conversation with Genera l Westmoreland in early August repeatedly, that he is certainly honest in that. Q. Now, General Codding told you, did he not, that General Graham was not in Langley during the month of August 1967? A. General Godding did indeed tell me that he didn't think that General Graham was there. It may well have been that Godding hadn't seen him there. However, I had information from -- detailed SOUTHER N DISTRICT REPORTER S. U.S. COURTHOUSE FOLEY SQUARE. NE W YORK. N.Y )020

17 Adams - cross information -- from Kelly Robinson, who was in the MACV 2 delegation, who remembers Graham very distinctly as having 3 been there, having ridden around in a car with General 4 Graham, General Graham having left his briefcase in the car. 5 He told me -- Robinson told me that Graham was 6 there. Godding told me that he could not recall Graham as 7 having been there. 8 Q. Mr. Adams, General Godding was the head of the 9 MACV delegation to the session in Langley in August 1967, 10 was he not? 11 That is correct, sir, yes. 12 Q. And isn't it true that you would expect that if 13 General Graha~ were in Washington at the same time that 14 General Godding would know about it? 15 THE COURT: For purposes of the question, I 16 think it would be better, if I am right, that you describe 17 hi~ as Colonel Graham, which I think was his ran\ at the time. MR. DORSF.N: Thank you, your Honor. Q. My question is General Godding was the head of the MACV delegation to the Langley session of the SNIE, is that correct? A. That is correct, yes. Q. And wouldn't you expect, Mr. Adams, that the head of the MA:V delegation to the Langley conference would SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTER S. U.S. COURTHOUSE FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y

18 Adams - cross know whether Colonel Graham was in Washington or Langley 2 during that period of time? 3... I would think he would. But that doesn't 4 necessarily mean he did. 5 Q. And General Godding told you that to the best of 6 his knowledge Colonel Graham was not in Langley or 7 Washington during the month of August 1967, is that correct? 8 A. General Godding told me that -- I forget how he 9 put it, whether he didn't remember whether Graham was there 10 or he didn't see him whether he was there. I would have to 11 consult my notes. 12 What I do know is that Kelly Robinson, who was 13 also a member of the MACV delegation with Godding and with 14 Hawkins, told me at great length -- and I checked it at a 15 later conversation -- that he recalls distinctly that 16 General Graham was there because he rode around in a car 17 with him, he attended briefings with him, he recalls Graham 18 having left his briefcase in the car. 19 Q. Did Lieutenant Robinson tell you whether General 20 Godding was at any of these briefings? A. Kelly Robinson -- no, Kelly Robinson -- I have never thought that Kelly Robinson was at the narrow room in the Pentagon, for example. He, Robinson, did tell me that he attended a number of Nlf. meetings, that he, Robinson, did. SOUTHERN DISTRICT R.EPORTER S. U.S. COURTHOUSE FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y

19 Adams - cross Q. I believe you have testified that General 2 Godding told you he did not see Colonel Graham in 3 Washington during the month of August A. I believe that's what Godding told me. I am not 5 sure. 6 Q. Anc you testified, I believe, that Lieutenant 7 Robinson was riding around with Colonel Graham during the B month of August 1967 in Langley, Virginia, which is a 9 suburb of Washington, is that correct? 10 That is correct, yes, that he recalls Graham 11 having been there in August, yes. 12 Q. And the question I have is did you think of 13 asking Lieutenant Robinson whether General Godding was ever 14 present w~en t~e two of them, Lieutenant Robinson and 15 Colonel Gra~am, were riding around in the Washington area. 16 A. I don't think I thought to ask Kelly Robinson 17 whether he saw Graham and Godding together. My main 18 interest at that point was whether Graham was there, and 19 Kelly Robinson answered that to my satisfaction. 20 Q. ~:hy was your main interest whether Colonel 21 Graham was there? A. Why was I interested? Q. Why was that your main interest, Mr. Adams? A. Because I was trying to pin down whether Graham had actually come back in August, and Kelly Robinson said SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTER S. U.S. COURTHOUSE FOLEY SQUARE, NEW YORK, N.Y

20 Adams - cross definitely, yes, he had, because he was there. 2 I was trying to track, in other words, whether 3 or not Colonel Graham could have been in Washington so that 4 he could have attended this meeting in the narrow room in 5 the Pentagon. And as I said, Colonel -- correction -- 6 Kelly Robinson indicated to me, said in no uncertain terms, 7 that in fact Colonel Graham was in Washington in August. 8 Q. And did Lieutenant Robinson tell you that 9 General sorry -- Colonel Graham had attended SNIE 10 sessions at the CIA in August in Langley? 11 A. He indicated to me that he believed that Colonel 12 Graham har. in fact attended an NIE session, I believe. 13 Q. You say had? 14 A. Th at Graham had shown up at one, I think. 15 Q. And didn't Colonel Hamscher tell you that 16 General Graham was leading the charge on behalf of MACV at 17 the SNIt session in August in Langley, Virginia? 18 A. I don't remember whether he used the term 19 leading the charge or what he said Q. Do you recall A. in that regard Do you recall whether Colonel Hamscher told you 23 that General -- sorry -- Colonel Graham was playing an 24 active role sitting across the table from you at the August 25 Langley sessions of the SNIE? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS. U.S. COURTHO USE FOLEY SQ UARE. NEW YORK. N.Y

21 Adams - cross A. I can't remember whether Hamscher told me that 2 or not. If I had my notes perhaps I could tell you that. 3 Q. Were you present in court when the testimony of 4 Colonel Hamscher was read into the record? 5 A. NO, I was not. 6 Q. Mr. Adams, I would like to read to you from the 7 trial transcript starting at page 6670, line no. Colonel Hamscher, at the sessions of the 9 SNIE in August of 1967 how did the various participants 10 know who the other participants were? 11 "You understand my question? 12 "/\. Well, this is not a frivolous answer. By 13 recognition. After you have seen Sam Adams a couple of 14 times YOLl know who he is. 15 flq. Were there any name tags or name plates? 16 tla. I see what you mean. Okay. We were all 17 in civilian clothes, so we undoubtedly were not wearing 18 name tags. I don't remember whether we wore name tags. 19 There were no name plates on the table in any kind of 20 formal fashion that I can recall. The CIA?eople I'm pretty sure did not wear name plates, but I won't swear to it. "0. Was Danny Graham relatively quiet in these sessions? "A. Quiet but busy. He emerged as the chief SO UTHERN DISTRICT REPORTER S, U.S. COURTHOUSE FOLEY SQUARE, NEW YORK. N.Y

22 Adams - cross negotiator and arguer. If you mean was he banging on the 2 table or anything, if that is the sense of quiet 3 ItQ. Was he a vocal advocate for the MACV 4 position? 5 "A. Yes." 6 Mr. Adams, it's a fact, is it not, that you 7 attended all of the sessions in Langley in August 1967? 8.l\ I believe I attended -- I believe I attended all 9 of them. I may not have, but I think I did. 10 Q. And therefore you knew, did you not, that what 11 Colonel Hamscher ~as just testified to is wrong? 12 A. Well, he doesn't say here that necessarily 13 that Danny was up there making -- giving the argument for 14 MACV. He says that he was quiet but busy. 15 Now, I myself don't remember one way or the 16 other whether Danny Graham was there. There were swarms of 17 people coming in and out all the time. 10 I do recall seeing General Godding, I remember 19 seeing Colonel Hawkins, Kelly Robinson. I have this vague 20 recollection that I may have seen Graham. I am not sure. I am of two minds on this. I don't really remember seeing Graham until definitely until Saigon in September. Q. Could you turn to page A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRI CT REPORTER S. U.S. COUR THOUSE FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK, N.Y. _ 791.)020

23 Adams - cross Q. Line fto. Do you remember you testified yesterday 3 that General Graham was negotiating with Sam Adams, other 4 people from the CIA, over enemy strength? I think you also 5 testified that you were with General Graham while he was 6 negotiating. 7 UA. That is correct." 8 Is it your testimony, Mr. Adams, that you would 9 not remem ~ er Colonel Graham after having negotiated with 10 him on a matter involving order of battle? 11 A. Is Hamscher referring here in lines 10 through is he referring to an August session? 13 Q. Yes, I believe he is. A. Well, I don't know whether he is or not. I 15 re ~ e m ~er arguing with him in the Saigon conference. 16 Q. Can we go back to page 6669, line "0. Can you recall the names, other tha n Mr. 18 Adams and General Graham, of any other persons who 19 participated in the negotiating sessions in August of at Langley, Virginia? 2l t, A. I have mentioned Dean Moore, CIA. Barrie 22 Williams was there. Jack Lanterman was in and out of it 23 when he could. I'm pretty sure he was in on that one where 24 he could get there in time. Gains Hawkins was there. I'm 25 almost certain Charlie Morris was at that session, but that SOU THER N DI STRICT REPORTER S. U.S. COURTH OUSE FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y ] 0

24 Adams - cross I won't swear to." 2 I am stopping, Mr. Adams. Has anyone ever 3 suggested to you that Charlie Morris, Colonel Morris, was 4 in Langley, Virginia in August 1967? 5 A. I don't think that Morris was there, but I am 6 not certain. 7 Q. Is it your belief that he was not there? 8 A. My believe was that Morris was not there. But I 9 can't say for certain. 10 Q. And therefore it is your belief that Colonel 11 Hamscher is incorrect to the extent he places Colonel 12 Morris there? 13 A. As he says, "I'm almost certain Charlie Morris 14 was there," but he wouldn't swear to it. 15,;). Continuing: 16 "George Carver I believe during that time may 17 have headed the table, but I won't swear to it. George 18 Godding was there on the CIA side. I didn't know those 19 people." 20 If you want to read anything else, Mr. Adams, to 21 satisfy yourself that Colonel Hamscher is discussing the 22 August session of the SNIE in Langley, please do so. 23 Now, Mr. Adams, isn't it a fact that Colonel 24 Graham was not pres~nt at the Langley session in August , any session that you attended? SOUTHER N DISTRICT REPORTER S. U.S. COURTHOUSE FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y

25 Adams - cross A. No, I can't say that at all. In fact, I have a 2 recollection -- I have this recollection that he may have 3 been there, I have this memory that he might have been. I 4 can't distinctly recall seeing him there. Now, Kelly 5 Robinson remembered that he was there. 6 But you have to remember there were several 7 sessions in this room and each session had a different cast 8 of characters. I was there for I think virtually all of 9 them. I may have missed one. I don't know. And sometimes 10 there was -- you know, early on there was Gains Hawkins and 11 George Godding and Kelly Robinson, there was a swirl of 12 Army types, Navy types, people coming in and out. 13 Graham may have been in one of the later 14 sessions. I can't remember distinctly. Kelly Robinson 15 said he '"as there. 16 Mr. Adams, could you turn to your book, page ? Could you read from the middle of that 20 the the concluding paragra?h on page 34636, the 21 nex t page. 22 A. You want me to start at 34636? 23 Q. Please read it out loud. 24 MR. DORSEN: Your Honor, I will offer that 25 portion in evidence. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS. U.S. COURTHOUSE FOLEY SQUARE, NEW YORK.. N.Y

26 Adams - cross A. Where do you want me to start reading? (Continued on next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTER S, U.S. COURTHOUSE FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y

27 bs8 Adams - cross Q. The middle of page MR. BOIES: I have an objection to that. 3 THE COURT: It is received. 4 A. "The conference room was medium-sized and 5 austere, centered by a big U-shaped table. On one side of 6 the U sa t the CIA del eg ation: George Carver, mysel f, Dean 7 Moore, (now a firm backer, but unfortunately no help on the 8 evidence) and an estimate staffer named Bill Hyland, who 9 had taken over from Bobby Layton the job of superintending 10 the various drafts of Fourteen Three. Facing us on the U's 11 other side was Colonel Hawkins and several other army 12 officers, apparently from the order of battle branch.". 13 Q. If I may interrupt, Mr. Adams, I should point 14 out, have you point out, that what you are describing now 15 is the next session in Saigon; is that correct? 16 A. The session I'm describing here is the one in 17 Saigon. 18 Q. Just two weeks later? 19 A. Two weeks later from what? 20 Q. The Saigon session started two weeks or so after 21 the conclusion of the August session in Langley? A. About that, yes. Q. Please continue. A. "From the head of the U po in ted Westmorel and's 25 big guns of intelligence. I recogni zed only one of these, SOUTHER N DISTklCl REPORTER ". U.S. COU RTH OUSE FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y '0

28 bs8 Adams - cross General Godding, Gains Hawkins escort at Langley. Carver 2 whispered the identity of the rest; the bald one in the 3 middle is General Davidson, the J-2; that fat colonel over 4 there is Charlie Morris, head of production, (that's their 5 001), and the short one is Danny Graham, chief of MACV 6 estimates, and the general sitting next to Davidson is 7 Winant Sidle -- he's head of MACV's public relations. 8 "'Public relations?' I said. I was about to ask 9 what the dickens a PR man was doing in an order of battle 10 conference when the meeting came to order." 11 Q. Mr. Adams, is it your testimony that today you 12 do not recall whether Colonel Graham was at the Langley 13 s e ssion? 14 A. Yes. As I have sa icl, I can't recall defi n i tel y 15 whether I have a recollection of Danny Graham being at the 16 Langley conference. 17 Q. An d you wrote in your manuscript, that you 18 worked on for a number of years, that the only person you 19 recognized at the table was General Godding? 20 A. Yes, I did. But t here was a probl em here. I 21 wrote this manuscript before I talked to Kelly Robinson, I believe, and Kelly told me that Graham will be at the Saigon -- correction, at the Langley part of the conference, and what I started doing then was trying to recollect whether in fact I had seen Graham there, and this sort of -- SOU THER N DISTRI CT REPORT F.RS. U.S. COU RTHOUSE FOLEY S UAR E. NE W YORK. N.Y

29 bs8 Adams - cross and this sort of picture of Graham showed up in my mind, 2 but it was -- I can't -- I couldn't in any honesty remember 3 whether I had actually seen him there or whether I was 4 trying so hard to remember that this picture showed up. 5 At any rate, when I wrote this I did not think 6 that I had ever seen Graham before then. 7 Q. Isn't it true that Colonel Graham is a very 8 difficult person to forget? 9 A. Well, he is, after seeing him on the witness 10 stand, when you see him on television; but the problem is 11 that when we were in that room there, there was a whole 12 mess of people, and there was a constantly changing group 13 of people in the August session. 14 Graham, like many other people, is not 15 necessarily something you focus in on at first. I admit 16 that later you do tend to. 17 Q. Mr. Adams, is it true that you have tried to 18 figure out which units were allegedly cut in the little 19 room in the Pentagon? 20 A. Which units were cut? 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. I have tr ied to fig ure that out, yes. 23 Q. And you have been unsuccessful; is tha t correct? 24 A. The closest one I have ever come to was thinking 25 tha tit might have been the 82nd or 83 rd rear serv ice group. SOUTHER N DISTRICT REPORTER S. U.S. COURTHOUSE FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y J020

30 bs8 Adams - cross I have tried to, and it's very difficult to figure out 2 because the people there, A, Danny Graham says he wasn't 3 there -- George Hamscher couldn't remember what unit 4 exactly what units were cut, nor could Bari Williams 5 remember exactly what units were cut, except they did 6 remember that there were admin service units cut, among 7 others. 8 Q. And the unit you just referred to was an admin 9 service unit, the 83rdor 10 A. 82nd or 83rd. 11 Q. How big is that unit? How big was it in the 12 MACV OB? 13 A. How big was it in the MACV OB? I can't recall. 14 It's somewhere in the neighborhood, 2 or 3,000 men Q. How much did it drop, if you recall? A. How much did it drop? Q. Are you saying, Mr. Adams, that between August and September 1967 the MACV order of battle dropped for administrative services? A. No. I have not said that the MACV order of battle dropped for administrative services. There were a whole bunch of lists floating around at that time. One of which was the order of battle, and I have been yet to determine exactly which list they were operating on in the narrow room in the Pentagon. SOUTHER N DISTRICT REPOR TER S. U.S. COUR TH OUSE FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y

31 bs8 Adams - cross Q. Mr. Adams, CBS went on the air and stated "CBS 2 Reports has learned that in the midst of the national 3 intelligence estimate General Westmoreland's 4 representatives met here at the Pentagon and commenced S arbitrarily to slash MACV's own official estimates of 6 Vietcong units." 7 Who were the MACV representatives that CBS was 8 talking about? 9 A. Well, it would certainly be Danny Graham. He 10 would be one of them, would be certainly the principal one. 11 Now, as to whether there was an additional MACV 12 representative, I can't really say. We had information 13 that there -might have been. 14 Q. And isn't it a fact that administrative serv ices ls strength actually went up during that period of August-Septem er, 16 A. Yes, but there were a number of lists that were 17 being operated on. There were unofficial lists. There 18 were official lists, there were semi-official lists. 19 What I do know was that both Hamscher and 20 Williams said that Danny Graham had taken a list and 21 arbitrarily cut units from them without regard to without regard to the evidence as held back in Saigon. 23 Q. Mr. Adams, the broadcast stated that 24 "General Westmoreland's representatives met here at the Pentagon and commenced arbitrarily to slash MACV's own SOUTHER N DI STRICT REPORTER S. U.S. COURTH OUSE FOLEY SQUARE. NE W YORK. N.Y

32 bs8 Adams - cross official estimates of Vietcong units." 2 Are you saying that you are no longer sure that 3 that is correct? 4 A. Well, I wouldn't say that I'm dead sure whether 5 this is an official or unofficial list. However, I think 6 what Mr. Crile was using when he said, "Official list," he 7 wasn't necessarily referring to the MACV official order of 8 b attl e. 9 Now, there were a number of lists floating 10 around at the time. The object of the exercise was to 11 start cutting down on the order of battle estimates in 12 order to stay under the 300,000 figure. Exactly what piece 13 of paper they had that Danny was operating on I don't know. 14 Q. Were these unofficial lists, as you describe 15 them, of any importance to anybody? 16 A. They certainly were to the people that were 17 sitting in the narrow room. Both Colonel Hamscher and 18 Colonel Williams have told me that they were aghast at what 19 was going on, so apparently they thought it was important. 20 Q. And other people thought they were important, 21 unofficial estimates of MACV strength, is that not true? 22 A. One of the problems was, in this exercise, is 23 that there was an official order of battle that had been 24 si tting around unchanged for years -- the numbers were 25 almost unchanged for years. Then what happened was, is SOUTHER N DISTRI CT REPORTFR S. U.S. COUR THOUSE F y

33 bsb Adams - cross that there were a number of unofficial books, the ones that 2 were not distributed to Washington, and it was these books, 3 the ones which were -- which were much higher than the 4 official list, and it was very often these lists that got 5 cut. 6 Q. If they were not distributed, Mr. Adams, what 7 d if ference did it make? B A. Because we were about to change the numbers 9 around and come out with a new official -- the new official 10 figures. The object of the whole NIE exercise was to come 11 out with a new set of official figures. 12 Q. Isn't it a fact, Mr. Adams, that everybody in 13 the intelligence community knew that? 14 A. Knew what? 15 Q. That the official records were going to be 16 supplemented by a new set of records and that nobody was 17 paying particul ar attention to the official records, as 18 you've described them, for categories other than main and 19 local forces? 20 MR. BOIES: Objection. 21 THE COURT: Susta ined as to form. 22 Q. Mr. Adams, wasn't it true back in 1967 that you 23 and the people with whom you were in touch in the 24 intelligence community understood that the MACV official 25 records, categories such as ad:ninistrative services, SOUTHER N DISTRICT REP O RT E R ~. U.S. COURTHOUSE FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y

34 bs8 Adams - cross irregulars, political cadre, were undergoing revision and 2 should not be accepted at face value? 3 A. The people who attended these NIE sessions, of 4 course, realized that the official books were -- for these 5 categories were passe. We were always arguing the -- 6 always arguing over numbers which had -- much higher 7 numbers which had not yet been accepted into the MACV order 8 of battle, yes. 9 Q. And these people were the representatives of the 10 policymakers in Washington, were they not? 11 A. The ones in Q. The ones meeting with you in the Saigon session 13 or the Langley session discussing these various estimates 14 of enemy strength? 15 A. Well, to the extent -- there were the MACV 16 representatives, which represented MACV. There were DIA 17 representatives which -- who ostensibly represented DIA, 18 but they were always under instructions to accept basically 19 MACV figures. 20 The same is true of the CINPAC representative, 21 George Hamscher. He was ostensibly under the -- under 22 CINPAC, that is Admiral Sharp and General Peterson, his G-2, 23 but he, too, had been instructed to stay, to become part of 24 the military delegation Q. And d idn' t -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT RE PORTF.R~. U.S. COURTH OU SE FOLEY SQ UARE. NEW YOR K, N.Y. _

35 bs8 Adams - cross A. -- and to support MACV figures. 2 Q. Didn't you believe in 1967 that the CINPAC 3 representative and the DIA representatives and the State 4 Department representatives and the NSA representatives, and 5 everybody else that was present, was communicating openly 6 and fully to their superiors? 7 A. I don't really know. I know in the case of the 8 State Department representative, the State Department 9 representative almost certainly had no knowledge of what 10 was going on in the narrow room. 11 In the case of the NSA representative THE COURT: I don't think that was the question. 13 The question was whether you bel ieved that the State 14 Department representative or generally all of them were 15 communicating with their superiors? 16 MR. DORSEN: That's correct? 17 A. I believed that MR. BOIES: I object to the form of that 19 question, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: It is addressed to his belief. 21 Overruled. 22 A. I lost the thread here. Can you repeat the 23 question. 24 Q. The question is whether you believed in that the representatives of the DIA, CINPAC, State SOUTHER N DISTRICT REPORT ER S. U.S. COUR THOUSE FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y

36 bs8 Adams - cross Department, NSA and whoever else was attending these 2 sessions, were reporting back to their superiors about what 3 was taking place at these sessions? 4 MR. BOIES: May we approach. 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 (At the sidebar.) 7 MR. BOIES: That question says, and I think 8 that the pr ior question that he had started to answer sa id, 9 at least that in substance, were these people repor t i ng 10 back what was happening at the sessi ons. 11 THE COURT: Did you believe. 12 MR. BOIES: Did you believe that they were 13 reporting back what was happening at the sessions, and what 14 the witness started to say, is "Well, they certainly were 15 not reporting back what was happening at the narrow room" 16 which was certainly one of the sessions in August. 17 The problem with that question is that, I t h ink 18 probably the fact is, certainly what this witness believes, 19 that is they were probably reporting back certain things 20 but not reporting back other things because they they were 21 not aware of them, and maybe for some other reason, I don't 22 kno w. 23 I am concerned that I thought when the witness 24 started his answer about them certainly not knowing about 25 the narrow room in the Pentagon, that was responsive. I SOUTHER N DISTR ICT REPORTFR S. U.S. COU RTHOUS E FOLEY SQU AR E, NEW YORK. N.Y

37 bs8 Adams - cross think that is clearly responsive to the question that was 2 now pend i ng, and yet 1 am concerned that the wi tness wi 11, 3 hearing what the court has said, that he's not supposed to 4 go into that. 5 THE COURT: First of all, 1 don't think that the 6 narrow room in the Pentagon is correctly described as you 7 just did describe it as a R s ~sion of the Langley NIE 8 meetings. That was not a session of the Langley NIE 9 meetings, according to anyone's description. 10 It was a meeting of some military officers in 11 the Pentagon that occurred dur ing the framework of the NIE 12 meetings. 1 3 Now, as far as your -- 1 think you're correct in 14 t he obse r vation that even if they reported to their 15 superiors, they could only report things that they knew and 16 they couldn't report things that they didn't know; 1 think 17 that's true and perhaps self-evident, but r think the 18 question merely asked whether he bel ieved that these people 19 were reporting to their superiors. 20 r do think it leaves open the question that they could only report what they knew and couldn't report what the y didn't know, but I think the question is addressing a different kind of thing. 1 think that the question addresses, to the extent that there was discussion about numbers and so forth SOUTHER N DISTRI CT REPORTER S. U.S. COURTHOUSE FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y

38 bsb Adams - cross in the Langley sessions, did Adams believe they were being 2 reported by the various agency representatives to their 3 superiors. 4 I don't think that calls for going into anything 5 to do with the small room, although I think it might be 6 perfectly appropriate for you to bring out that if they 7 didn't know what happened in the small room they couldn't B report it. That would be appropriate for rebuttal 9 testimony. 10 MR. BOIES: I guess my problem is I'm not sure 11 that, at least in the jury's mind, the distinction between 12 the Langley sessions and what I think the court properly 13 identifies as a meeting of military representatives in the 14 framework of those Langley sessions, but perhaps not 15 technically part of the official sessions, is quite clear. 16 THE COURT: In any event, there is a further 17 po into To the extent that the people said to be in the 18 little room included representatives of OIA and CINPAC, who were also participants at Langley, the question encompasses whether it was his belief that they were telling what they knew to their superiors. MR. BOIES: If that's the case, and I agree with the court that that is the case, but if that is the case, then it seems to me that it is not inappropriate for the witness to refer to that. SOUTHER N DlSTRlCT REPOR TFR S. U.S. COURTHO USE FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y

39 bs8 Adams - cross THE COURT: I just don't know what you're asking. 2 What is it you want to have happen next? 3 MR. BOIES: 1 guess I would like it to be clear 4 to the witness that if he thinks it calls for, that is if 5 he thinks the question calls for it, he can respond with 6 what people reported back, if anything, concerning the 7 small room in the Pentagon. Otherwise, I'm afraid there is 8 going to be a constraint on the witness that will result in 9 a misleading record. 10 THE COURT: I don't think it's misleading, and 11 if I am wrong, you certainly have the power to clear it up. 12 (Open court) 13 Q. Mr. Adams, MR. DORSEN: I'm not sure if there was a 15 question pending. 16 THE COURT: Why don't you pretend there wasn't 17 and ask a question. Q. Mr. Adams, did any of the people participating in the sessions at Langley or Saigon from other intelligence agencies ever tell you that they were not reporting back to their superiors what they saw and did at the various sessions? A. The y didn't tell me they were not reporting back, no. No, I mean, nobody came up to me and said, "I'm not reporting back what 1 just heard." SOUTHERN D1 5TkICT REPORT ER <;, U.S. COURTHOUSE FO LEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y. _