UNOFFICIAL/UNAUTHENTICATED TRANSCRIPT. [The R.M.C. 803 session was called to order at 1246, MJ [Col SPATH]: These commissions are called to order.

Transcription

1 0 [The R.M.C. 0 session was called to order at, December.] MJ [Col SPATH]: These commissions are called to order. All parties who were present before are again present. Get the witness back up, please. Mr. Sheeran, this is Judge Spath. Can you hear me? WIT: Yes, sir. MJ [Col SPATH]: All right. Thank you. I just remind you that you are still under oath and we are going to continue with your direct. Mr. Kammen. LDC [MR. KAMMEN]: Thank you. DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED Questions by the Learned Defense Counsel [MR. KAMMEN]: Q. A few more questions. On the issue of his security clearance, did you ever go institute steps with the Department of Defense at any time asking that they pull Lieutenant Commander Gill's clearance or pull his -- end the investigation? A. I don't recall doing that. Q. And to your knowledge, did that investigation -- has that investigation been resolved one way or the other? A. I don't know. Q. Okay. Judge Spath may be aware of this, but the

2 0 record may not. As a legal assistance advisor you said, if I understood you correctly, that when there is an accusation, say, arising out of the divorce, you might go to the soldier to get his side of the story; is that correct? A. No, that's not correct. I said that I might correspond or discuss it with the soldier's commander. Q. Because you have an attorney-client relationship with the commander under those circumstances? A. No, because I have an attorney-client relationship with the complainant, the spouse. Q. The spouse, okay. Here did you believe you had an attorney-client relationship with Mrs. Gill? A. No. Q. Your role was different. You were essentially the commander in this case; is that correct? A. She called me that, although in effect I am not a commander and don't hold myself out as one. Q. Well, you were Lieutenant Commander Gill's supervisor, correct? A. Well, I was his superior officer. Q. You were a superior officer, and in that sense you had command responsibilities to him?

3 0 A. Or supervisory responsibilities, yes. Q. But you were both in the military -- and supervisory responsibility in the military means command responsibility, doesn't it? A. Not always. I'm using the term "command" in a more limited technical fashion, but I understand what you are saying. Q. Okay. And when -- as the commander or the supervisor, when you don't have an attorney-client relationship with the spouse, you have the authority and indeed the responsibility to get the soldier's side of the story, "Soldier" loosely, Lieutenant Commander Gill's side of the story, correct? A. Well, again, it depends on the circumstances. Q. Well, the circumstances here were there were these complaints, and you never went and spoke with him about them, did you? A. No. And the reason I didn't is because one of the documents that Mrs. Gill sent to me was a restraining order, in fact an extension of a restraining order, where the judge had indicated that there was a substantial likelihood of abuse, or something of that nature at that ---- Q. And that restraining order had been issued in ----

4 0 A. That gave me ---- Q. Excuse me. ATC [LT MORRIS]: Objection, Your Honor. I would like an opportunity to hear the witness's answer. MJ [Col SPATH]: And you will in just a moment. Objection sustained. You may proceed, Mr. Kammen. LDC [MR. KAMMEN]: Thank you. A. The restraining order had been renewed ---- Q. Excuse me. There is no question pending. A. Oh, sorry. [Pause.] Q. Mrs. -- you talked about this supposed restraining order in your memo to Mr. Quinn; is that correct? Q. And what you said -- and certainly what you wanted to do was give Mr. Quinn all of the information available to you to document whatever personnel action he might choose to take; is that true? Q. You wanted this to be as full and complete as possible, right? Q. And what you say regarding the restraining order,

5 0 Mrs. Gill asserts that Lieutenant Commander Gill is violating the restraining order by continuing to contact her with unwelcome communications, right? Q. You say you have a couple of examples included in this packet where he called her, correct? Q. And you acknowledge that she -- her lawyer has raised those issues with his lawyer, correct? A. I don't recall that. Q. Well, let me read it to you: "Mrs. Gill's attorney has raised these issues to Lieutenant Commander Gill's attorney. I have an example from June,." A. Okay. Then it's yes. Q. And that's all you told Mr. Quinn about this supposed restraining order, correct? Isn't that right? A. I don't recall. I think I did -- we did discuss the portion that I just communicated to you. Q. Now ---- A. And that's why I didn't confront Commander Gill. Q. Because there was a -- Mrs. Gill said there was a restraining order, right? A. Well, the copy that she sent me had been recently

6 0 renewed just a short time before she sent it. Q. And that was also in the same conversation where she told you she didn't feel afraid, she just wanted the divorce over; isn't that correct? Isn't ---- A. It is correct. Q. Thank you. A. It is correct. However ---- Q. Thank you. Now, you indicated that when you corresponded or were dealing with the congressperson, one of the things that they provided you with was a privacy release executed by Mrs. Gill, correct? Q. Did you ever go to Mr. Gill to get a privacy release? A. No. Q. Now, you indicated that part of the reason you needed to unencumber Mr. Gill's position was you needed to fill that position, right? He was the only qualified legal advisor on the Nashiri case, correct? A. That's correct. Q. If he is sitting over at the Navy Yard, nothing can get done on the Nashiri case, true? A. Exempt for Mr. Quinn doing it himself, yes.

7 0 Q. Well, or you could do it yourself, because you are a lawyer too. A. Well, I wasn't appointed as a legal advisor, so ---- Q. That's true. A that wouldn't have happened at that time. Q. And perhaps, given what we know about your communications with Mr. Ary, you too would have been disqualified? A. I can't say. Q. Okay. In any event, you needed a legal advisor, because there was stuff happening in the Nashiri case that needed legal advisor input, right? Q. Now, as you said, Lieutenant Commander Gill was a by-name hire, right? Q. That was done to expedite bringing him aboard, true? A. It was our hope that it would be true, yes. Q. Well, you brought him aboard, and you brought him aboard quickly because he was a by-name hire? A. Right, and he was available. Q. And he was available. It didn't work out, but that was part of the reason you did the by-name hire, correct?

8 0 Yes. Q. Now, this replacement you desperately needed was not a by-name hire, was it? A. No, because we had no knowledge of any Navy attorneys who were available at the time. Q. Right. So you were willing to wait -- I think you told us about six months -- before you could have a legal advisor to replace Lieutenant Commander Gill? A. No, I didn't say I was willing to wait six months. I said it actually took six months before we did get a replacement. Q. And because it took six months, you had to wait six months, right? Q. Even though there was no other legal advisor available to work on the Nashiri case, true? A. Well, yes. That's how it worked out. Q. Thank you. Yes. And even though, as you have just told us, there was stuff on the Nashiri case that needed to be addressed, right? Q. Okay. Now, in your judgment a person cannot get a security clearance because they filed bankruptcy, right?

9 0 A. Yes, that's correct. Q. Committed assaults? Q. Committed assaults against women? Q. Can we think of anyone else that might fall in that category? A. I don't understand. Q. Pay attention to politics, sir? LDC [MR. KAMMEN]: I don't have any other questions? MJ [Col SPATH]: Lieutenant Morris, how long do you anticipate your cross-examination? ATC [LT MORRIS]: I estimate, Your Honor, around half an hour to minutes. MJ [Col SPATH]: All right. Let's at least start it or get a feel for it. Mr. Sheeran, part of it is I want to make sure you are able to get to where you need to be. The parties have given me an idea of what that is. So let me ask you for your departure time. Knowing in your perfect world you are already on the road, and I recognize that, what would be the time at which you really want to make sure you are on the way?

10 0 WIT: Well, sir, ideally 00, but I'm willing to stay as long as need be. MJ [Col SPATH]: I understand. You heard some of that before we took the break is I will just wait and have you come back when you get back from that function if that's convenient, but let's see if we can move forward and get through it. Lieutenant Morris, you may proceed. CROSS-EXAMINATION Questions by the Assistant Trial Counsel [LT MORRIS]: Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Sheeran. A. Good afternoon. Q. You were explaining briefly, but I was wondering if you could provide some context for those who may not understand the distinction between the operations side of the house and the legal side of the house. Can you give us just a little bit of overview on that distinction? A. Well, within the Office of the Convening Authority, there are two sections. One is the legal advisor section, and the other is operations, under which fall also the Office of Court Administration and our forward element on Guantanamo Bay. Q. In regards to legal requests that are coming in from 0

11 0 any of the defense attorneys or prosecution on any of the cases, this is not something where you are being approached or that's in your wheel well, so to speak? A. Not if they are related to the case, no. Q. If they have some sort of operational element to them, then you are brought in, correct? Q. Now, in regards to the judge's March order, you were aware of the parameters of the judge's order and also the legal advisors that were precluded by the judge's order? Q. And also aware that the convening authority himself, General Ary, had been precluded? You were aware ---- A. Precluded from? Q. That General Ary, Mr. Ary, had been disqualified; isn't that correct? Yes. Q. And from your vantage point, did you see anything that would have led you to believe that the judge's order was being violated? A. No. It was quite the opposite, in fact. Q. What do you mean by "quite the opposite," Mr. Sheeran?

12 0 A. I mean that the initial reaction of the legal advisors who had been disqualified was to immediately find out how they could disengage and not -- not be involved in this case at all going forward. Q. You observed intentional actions by these precluded legal advisors to honor and show deference to the judge's order is what I am hearing you say? Q. Now, there was a lot of questions about your interaction with a Lieutenant Commander Gill. I want to ask you about your earlier interactions with him. You talked about him being a challenging personality. Can you provide a little bit more color on that? A. Well, it was -- it was Mr. Kammen who used that term, but -- but there were times when, you know, I would observe Commander Gill being rather argumentative, it would appear excessively so over relatively minor matters, but it wasn't something serious. Q. Mr. Sheeran, you also shared that you wanted Lieutenant Commander Gill to succeed. Can you give us any specific instances or examples of this? A. Well, as I mentioned, I signed the paperwork that he brought to me requesting that his tour be extended to a full

13 0 months. It had not been months when he arrived. And then secondly, I signed paperwork that would enable him to receive LASIK eye surgery. And I expected at that time that not only would he stay for the entire period of his mobilization, but would, in fact, try to extend past one year as -- [VTC transmission interrupted] -- others had been done. And both of those actions taken was after the court order was issued. Q. And he was the, at the time, the only legal advisor identified at that time to be taking up the Nashiri case, correct? Until Mr. Quinn returned, yes. Q. So we are just focusing on those four weeks or so in March, from when the judge's order came out, to when Mr. Quinn arrived, correct? A. Okay. Yes. Q. Now, there were a number of questions about the SF. Just to understand better your responsibilities, you don't adjudicate SF s; isn't that correct? A. That is correct. Q. And, in fact, do you recall on your memo, your memorandum, your summary concerning Mr. Gill that you submitted to Mr. Quinn, do you recall that Mr. Quinn -- I

14 0 don't know if you had seen it afterwards, but do you recall if Mr. Quinn had notated that, in fact, someone else would proceed with the process and responsibilities to report, not yourself, correct? A. Yes, that's correct. Q. But in terms of having Lieutenant Commander Gill fill out his SF, you did have an interest and responsibility on that part, correct? He was told that he needed to do that as soon as he arrived, and it took about three months for him to finally complete it. Q. Do you recall that on March rd someone from OSS asked you for assistance, saying that he had -- this individual had approached Lieutenant Commander Gill three times asking that he complete his SF and that he still hadn't completed it, correct? A. That's correct, yes. Q. And then on April th you discovered that he still hadn't completed his SF, and then you called him into your office? A. I had two separate conversations with him, and the April th one, I guess, was the second one, where I emphasized to him where he needed to complete the paperwork and get this

15 0 moving. Q. When you say "emphasized to him," what do you mean by that? A. I think I said words to the effect of, you know, "If you are -- if you are not going to do it or if you refuse, then, you know, we may not need you here at OMC." Q. At this point it had escalated and elevated to a point where he needed to get this SF done to be used there at the convening authority's office? A. Correct. Q. Now, you, around the April th time frame, received a phone call from Mrs. Gill? A. I think it was around the th, actually, yes. Q. And Mr. Kammen asked you a number of questions about your legal assistance background. It's fair to say that when you -- well, describe for us upon, you know, hearing these allegations, what was your initial response to it? A. Well, I was -- I was surprised and I was skeptical for the, you know, reasons that were previously explored, which is why I asked Mrs. Gill, after a short time, if she had any documents to support her allegations. Q. And you shared that she did? A. Yes, she did, and she faxed them to our office, to

16 me. 0 Q. Do you recall roughly how many pages of support she provided to your office? A. I think there were two separate faxes and they were pages each, roughly. Q. Now, during this time you were tasked with -- maybe for lack of a better word, but with compiling and coming up with what eventually became the document titled Summary Concerning Lieutenant Commander Stephen Gill; is that correct? I mean, I briefed Mr. Quinn on documents that we had received, and, you know, he asked me to review them and to come back and brief him as to what they were and how serious they were, if in fact they were. Q. How long did your inquiry take? A. I think it was at least a week before I was able to compile the information that I put there. Q. And were you doing, during this week, other things as required by your deputy chief of staff role? Q. What percentage of time was this inquiry taking from your day to day during that week? A. Quite a bit actually. I think at some point I was spending, you know, at least two or three hours a day on this

17 0 particular issue. Q. Now, after that time, you compiled a summary concerning Lieutenant Commander Gill and provided that to Mr. Quinn, correct? Q. And in that you had shared that there was a concern about -- an overall concern about Lieutenant Commander Gill's temperament, as corroborated by the documents that you had received from Mrs. Gill, correct? Q. And what had flagged your attention or was of larger concern was a recent restraining order that was most recently renewed in and that the judge signed the order, checked the box that said there is a substantial likelihood of immediate danger of abuse, correct? Q. Why did that concern you, and what did you do as a result of that concern? A. Well, even though Mrs. Gill in her conversation had not specifically said she was afraid of Mr. Gill, I was concerned that, were I to confront him with the information that she had provided us, that he may well go back and harm his wife and daughters, and we obviously didn't want that to

18 0 happen. Q. Now, in her concerns that she shared with you as well and as memorialized in your memo -- and for the record, Your Honor, this is Y, and it's Attachment K -- but you also memorialized her sharing that Lieutenant Commander Gill is bipolar and has anger and rage issues, correct? A. That's what she said, yes. Q. And you also indicated concerns that there was a domestic violence incident in which Gill's daughters witnessed Lieutenant Commander Gill swinging at Mrs. Gill, correct? Q. And that there was an incident in which -- an allegation in which there was a brick thrown by Lieutenant Commander Gill into another person's car? Q. And that there was a reckless driving incident, a Class misdemeanor in Virginia, that he, in fact, had not included in his SF, correct? A. Correct. Q. And what was the date -- do you recall roughly -- when he submitted his SF? A. I believe it was around April th or so. Q. Do you recall whether at that point he had gone to

19 0 court on that misdemeanor? A. I don't believe he had by that point. Q. So he had a responsibility, you would say, not knowing the outcome of this misdemeanor, to fill that out on his SF? Q. And you also had concerns that Mrs. Gill shared that Lieutenant Commander Gill was violating his restraining order, specifically in not contacting her, correct? A. She alleged that he was, in fact, contacting her, yes. Q. And did she provide examples of him contacting her? A. I'm sorry, could you repeat? Q. Did Mrs. Gill provide examples of Lieutenant Commander Gill contacting her? Q. And from your conversation with the Republican -- or Congressman Keating's office, did you learn that his relate -- or that his employment with Office of General Counsel, the Department of Veterans' Services, that he was let go because of anger issues? Q. And on the SF, it requires that you fill it out

20 0 obviously truthfully, but it requires that you share if you were let go from any past employment for any reason other than a favorable separation? A. That, that's correct. Q. And he hadn't done that, correct? A. It wasn't mentioned on the SF. Q. And there is a place for him to mention it? Q. You also learned that Mrs. Gill's father also had a restraining order against Lieutenant Commander Gill, correct? Q. You also heard and, I believe, received documentation about an incident, a road rage incident that occurred in Massachusetts by Lieutenant Commander Gill in, correct? Q. And you heard an allegation about and received, actually, photographs of September -- so this is, you know, within six months of this all occurring, that he had left -- he was alleged to have left the scene of property damage; that he drove on Mrs. Gill's grass, damaging utility equipment, and he did this in the middle of the night? A. That's what she said, yes, uh-huh. Q. And there was no witnesses to this, but that they 0

21 0 pulled Lieutenant Commander Gill over, just a few blocks over, just a few minutes from when this incident allegedly occurred? Q. And that the police tried to contact Lieutenant Commander Gill to take a look at his car and they weren't able to get ahold of him, correct? A. Correct. Q. And she shared with you multiple civil suits that Lieutenant Commander Gill was still involved with, correct? Q. As a decision for Lieutenant Commander Gill being returned to the service, can you talk us through your thought processes about how you came to this decision and then what you actually did? A. Right. In discussions with Mr. Quinn, after he decided that Lieutenant Commander Gill needed to be returned to service -- our administrative officer forwarded to me a draft template memo, a draft memo that the agency requires to accept someone back to service if they are in fact being returned. ATC [LT MORRIS]: Mr. Sheeran, I am going to stop you there, and I am going to show you what you are describing, but I would like to put that up. And, Your Honor, this has been

22 0 previously cleared. This is a previous exhibit. It is SS. And I am also going to follow that up with the attachment to SS, which is an , which is RR. And I will approach, show the defense and show the CSO? MJ [Col SPATH]: You may. ATC [LT MORRIS]: Thank you, Your Honor. [Pause.] ATC [LT MORRIS]: Your Honor, with your permission I would like to show the witness SS. MJ [Col SPATH]: You may. ATC [LT MORRIS]: This should be cleared. This is the FOR PUBLIC RELEASE version, so I have no objection to this going out to the gallery. MJ [Col SPATH]: You may proceed. Q. Mr. Sheeran, this has obviously been redacted with the names. Can you fill us in on this April and who it's from and what is it? A. Well, it's from our administrative officer, chief petty officer who worked in our operations section, and it was to me, and again the subject was the draft return to service letter concerning Commander Gill, the template that the Navy required, so to speak. Q. He says, "Please see attached," and I would like to

23 0 show you that attachment. ATC [LT MORRIS]: Your Honor, this is RR. MJ [Col SPATH]: You may proceed. Q. Is this, in fact, that attachment to that ? Q. Would you walk us through -- the date in the top right is in March. Can you talk us through that? A. That date is not accurate. Q. And how do you know that? A. Because it was sent to me at the end of April, as the that you previously showed me said. Q. You shared that this was a template, so you are receiving this template. Talk us through the end of the first paragraph of what this Navy template was calling for. A. Right. It makes reference at the end of the first paragraph, presuming that the member is to be demobilized, it has our office requesting that he in fact be demobilized within -- no later than May, which was 0 days after when I really received this, April th. I changed the language of that draft to remove references to demobilization because I didn't think it was appropriate for our office to make such a recommendation, and because, as I said before, I wanted to leave the door open to

24 0 his possible return sometime in the future. Q. And the final version that was sent did not contain the language that said that we request that he be demobilized, correct? A. That's correct. ATC [LT MORRIS]: And, Your Honor, even though it hasn't been cleared by the CSO, for the record, that has been submitted as Y, it is Attachment O, and it shows the final version without that language in it. Q. So it was your hope that Lieutenant Commander Gill would have an opportunity to be returned to the service and have an opportunity to deal with his issues, correct? Q. And in fact this is what Mr. Quinn said in response to your summary of information. He says, "I recommend that we return to Service OJAG so that we can handle there." Did you ever see Mr. Quinn's summary? A. I saw his -- the final version of this memo here that he signed. Is that what you mean? Q. That's correct. Q. He also shared that there are other issues that will need to be worked through and then more or less summarized

25 0 your concerns that we had just gone through, correct? Q. So overall this was really just a bandwidth issue, in that you guys didn't have the sufficient bandwidth to be handling Lieutenant Commander Gill and to be doing your mission, correct? A. That's correct. Mr. Quinn wanted me engaged on many other issues, and he did not want me to be spending as much time as I was on this matter. Q. Now, Mr. Kammen was saying, well, it's hard to believe that you guys would -- even though you had removed the demobilization language, even though you, in your testimony, stated you wanted to bring him back, it's hard to believe that you were thinking this when, in fact, he was complaining to General Martins. Do you recall that question? A. I don't recall the part about complaining to General Martins. Q. Well, let me ask you: When you submitted this, you weren't aware at all that General Martins had been consulted at all or that Lieutenant Commander Gill had made an allegation to him, correct? A. Correct.

26 0 Q. And you were still hoping that he would have an opportunity to work through these issues and possibly come back? A. I wanted to leave the door open to give him the opportunity to overcome the difficulties and perhaps return. And if we had left in the demobilization language, he would not have returned. Q. Now -- and you were asked a lot of questions about whether or not you contacted the DoD central adjudication authority. That's not your responsibility, is it? A. No. Q. Now, describe for us, after or while you are taking Lieutenant Commander Gill down to the Navy, did you guys interact with each other? We had a conversation at the Navy Yard while we were waiting for his new supervisor to appear. We had a conversation actually about -- about some of these issues. Q. What do you mean "some of these issues," Mr. Sheeran? A. Particularly the ones referenced to the divorce. I tried to encourage him to resolve the divorce matter sooner rather than later, particularly for the sake of his children, but he wasn't really open to hearing advice like that. Q. Did you ask him about anything else or have any

27 0 other -- do you remember anything else about that conversation? A. I don't recall exactly, but it was primarily considered with me trying to get him to resolve the divorce sooner so that he can get it behind him. Q. Do you recall asking him whether or not he had filled out his SF entirely, completely and truthfully? Q. Can you share a little bit about that? A. I don't recall his response, but ---- Q. But you had asked him? A. But I did ask him, yes. Q. Now, can you describe any later interactions you had with Lieutenant Commander Gill? When he had departed the office, he had left a couple of items behind, including pictures of his daughters. And he called and asked me to help in getting them back to him, so I personally went and got those items and gave them to him in person. Q. Did you inquire about how he was doing? A. Oh, yes, I'm sure I did. Our conversation was pleasant and professional. Q. Did you follow-up with any s after that?

28 0 A. I think I did, and I asked him if he had all the -- if he had everything he needed or if he needed anything more, if he was squared away with respect to whatever he needed from our office to be able to make his transition. Q. Thank you, Mr. Sheeran. ATC [LT MORRIS]: May I have just a moment, Your Honor. MJ [Col SPATH]: You may. [Pause.] ATC [LT MORRIS]: Nothing further, Your Honor. MJ [Col SPATH]: Mr. Kammen. REDIRECT EXAMINATION Questions by the Learned Defense Counsel [MR. KAMMEN]: Q. I'm confused, so help me. You said that it was Mr. Quinn's decision to return Lieutenant Commander Gill to the service, correct? A. Yes, but I did not disagree. Q. No, I'm not suggesting you did. The two of you talked about it and came to the conclusion that we are getting rid of this guy, returning him to the service was the way to go, true? A. I don't think we ever said "getting rid of this guy." Q. No. Returning him to the service was the way to go, correct?

29 0 A. At that time, yes, it was. Q. Well, and when did you and Mr. Quinn have this discussion? A. Prior to the that was sent to me ---- Q. Well, of course ---- A by the administrative officer. Q but when prior to the ? A. I don't recall how many days it was, but it was definitely in late April. Q. Well, late April, so after the th of April? A. No. Q. Sometime between the th and the th? Right? It was closer to the th. Q. Maybe the th? A. I don't recall exactly. Q. Okay. Because there is not a whole lot of time, true? A. Not a whole lot of time. Q. There is only two weeks from the time Mrs. Gill complained to the time you guys fired him, correct? A. That's correct. Q. And you spent three hours a day doing what you call an investigation, true?

30 0 A. No, I didn't call it an investigation ---- Q. That's what you told us on cross-examination, that you were spending up to three hours a day on this issue, right? A. Yeah, but I wasn't -- right. I was spending a lot of time on it, that's correct. Q. Right. And part of the time what you were doing was essentially a command investigation, right? A. I didn't consider it to be that. I just wanted it to be complete. Q. But in hindsight it might look like that, mightn't it? A. Perhaps. Q. And as part of this command investigation, you never went to Lieutenant Commander Gill, did you? A. No. Q. Okay. Now, at some point during this investigation -- you don't know the time you and Mr. Quinn -- or Mr. Quinn had made the decision that you agreed with that this guy needs to be out of the office, correct? Q. Okay. Now, part of the reason that he needed to be out of the office was because Mrs. Gill told you he was 0

31 0 bipolar, right? A. Well, the issue ---- Q. Please, answer my question: Did Mrs. Gill tell you -- you told us on cross-examination Mrs. Gill told you he was bipolar ---- A. She did say that. Q and had bipolar issues. MJ [Col SPATH]: Mr. Kammen, your question was -- the question you asked was not the question you asked on follow-up. LDC [MR. KAMMEN]: I appreciate that. Q. Mrs. Gill told you that her husband was bipolar? A. Correct. Q. Mrs. Gill told you her husband had anger issues? Q. Mrs. Gill made all of these accusations, correct? A. Correct. Q. And you had seen Lieutenant Commander Gill on a virtually daily, work-daily basis for four months, true? Q. I mean, it's a relatively small office, correct? A. It's a relatively small office. Yes, I saw him almost every day.

32 0 Q. You saw him almost every day. And sometimes this job can be stressful, true? Yes. Q. He never displayed anger issues to you, did he? A. Not to me when we were having conversations, no, he didn't. Q. And nobody ever -- as you have told us, nobody ever complained that he had anger issues, right? A. Correct. Correct. Q. Nobody ever said, "Boy, this guy may be bipolar. Maybe we ought to -- you know, he is not acting right," did they? A. No. Q. The only thing anybody said was when he complained that Mr. Toole was violating Judge Spath's order, correct? A. Could you say that again? Q. The only complaint about Mr. Quinn -- Mr. Gill you ever heard anyone make in that office was that he was complaining about Mr. Toole and Mr. Toole didn't like it; isn't that true? A. I said that he didn't make a complaint about Mr. Gill. Whether or not Mr. Toole liked it or not, I can't say.

33 0 Q. You did this investigation for however many hours a day this investigation took, and that was an investigation when you sent Mr. Gill, Lieutenant Commander Gill back to the service, right? A. It was completed before that time actually. Q. Yes. Right. And the investigation -- let's be honest, really what your investigation was was taking the stuff Mrs. Gill provided and putting it in a packet; isn't that true? A. Most of it was that, yes. Q. You didn't go out and interview people that Mrs. Gill told you about, did you? A. Which is why I am not calling it an investigation, so ---- Q. Well, I understand that. But you spent three hours a day collecting her stuff and putting it in a packet for Mr. Quinn; isn't that true? Q. And three -- you spent three hours a day putting it in a packet for Mr. Quinn to assemble so that you guys could justify returning him to the fleet -- returning him to the Navy, excuse me. Isn't that true? A. No. At the time I prepared the summary of

34 0 information I wasn't aware that it was going to end in a return to service. Q. Well, you had -- but at some point before the th you were aware he was going to return to that, you were going to return him to the service, right? Q. Okay. Q. And everything you prepared, everything you assembled for Mr. Quinn all came from Mrs. Gill. None of it came from Lieutenant Commander Gill, did it? A. Just about all of it came from Mrs. Gill, and none of it came from Commander Gill, that's correct. Q. Right. So some might say that was a pretty one-sided inquiry. A. Well, that's why I didn't call it an inquiry either. Q. Well, no. Some might say that you assembled for Mr. Quinn a one-sided justification. A. That wasn't my intention. Q. Of course not. Now, here is this guy where you have assembled this information, that he is bipolar, has anger issues, has all these allegations against him, and you say, "Well, I want to

35 0 return him to the service, and if he can't be useful to us, perhaps he could be useful to some other command." Is that what you are telling Judge Spath? A. That was, in fact, my motivation. Q. Okay. And so it was your motivation to this guy that you thought had all of these problems, to just dump him on some other command? A. No, I didn't think he had the problems. His wife accused him of having those problems. Q. Oh, you didn't think he had the problems, his wife accused him of having the problems, and because his wife accused him of having the problems, Mr. Quinn sent him back out of the office, right? A. Until the issues could be resolved, yes. Q. And until those issues could be resolved, until you could satisfy yourself that he wasn't bipolar, that he didn't have anger issues, that your eyes, the things you had seen, could be trusted, you didn't want him around, you didn't want him to do his work, correct, even though you had ---- A. Well ---- Q. Let me withdraw that. You had work that needed to be done, true? A. You mean in my regular job?

36 0 Q. No, he had work. The Nashiri case needed attention, right? A. Oh. Yes. Correct. Correct. Q. He was the only guy who could do it, right? A. At that time. Q. At that time? A. Well, until Mr Q. It took six months to replace him, as you have told us? A. That's correct, although ---- Q. Even though you needed him, even though you had never seen him angry or do anything improper, based on what his wife told you, you submitted this packet, this one-sided packet to Mr. Quinn, correct? A. Well, I did submit it to Mr. Quinn, and you know what it says. Q. Right. And that packet was used to justify a decision Mr. Quinn had made that you supported, true? A. In returning him to service, yes. Q. Yeah. Now, during this time, Mr. Toole was still -- obviously still in the office, correct?

37 0 Q. And Mr. Toole was very unhappy about the complaints that Mr. -- Lieutenant Commander Gill had made about him; isn't that true, as you have told us? A. I didn't tell you that, but I presume that he was. Q. Well, you presume that he was because he told you that he was; isn't that true? A. I don't actually recall him saying that. Q. But certainly that was your sense from being in this office? Q. And, of course, Mr. Toole had worked with Mr. Quinn prior to Mr. Quinn's departure the first time, correct? For a short period, yes. Q. And Mr. Toole was instrumental in the discussions involving Change, correct? A. I don't know if I would call him instrumental, but he was clearly involved. Q. He was clearly involved. And the allegation that was being made was that he continued to be involved even in spite of Judge Spath's order, right? Q. That allegation was made to you at least once by Lieutenant Commander Gill, correct?

38 0 Q. That allegation was made to Mr. Quinn at least once or twice by Lieutenant Commander Gill; isn't that true? Q. And based -- after those allegations were made is when you commenced this investigation -- this assembly of one-sided documents, right? Isn't that right? A. It happened late ---- ATC [LT MORRIS]: I am going to object, Your Honor. This is argumentative. MJ [Col SPATH]: It is. Mr. Kammen, rephrase the question. Sustained. Q. After these allegations against Mr. Toole were made, you were tasked with doing an investigation? A. But that's not -- that's not why I prepared the summary. Q. No, you prepared the summary at Mr. Quinn's request, as you have told us, correct? Q. You prepared the allegations Mrs. Gill was making, right? A. I said yes. Q. And you prepared the summary assembling all of her

39 0 accusations and putting them in a package and giving them to Mr. Quinn, correct? LDC [MR. KAMMEN]: Excuse me just a second. [Pause.] Q. And at no time, from then until today, have any of these things been reported to the appropriate agencies, these security -- potential security violations been reported by you or anyone in the office -- by you, excuse me, to anyone in the Department -- the appropriate agencies in the Department of Defense, have they? A. You mean Mrs. Gill's allegations? Q. Correct. A. No. Q. Okay. Nobody has -- you haven't sent anything suggesting that Lieutenant Commander Gill not receive his security clearance, have you? A. No. Q. You haven't suggested anything, filed anything with any agencies -- and I'm not sure of the technical language -- suggesting that he is not a good security risk, have you? A. That's correct. LDC [MR. KAMMEN]: I don't have anything else. Thank you.

40 0 MJ [Col SPATH]: Thank you. ATC [LT MORRIS]: Nothing further from the government, Your Honor. MJ [Col SPATH]: Mr. Sheeran, just give me one moment. I just want to look back and make sure I didn't have any questions. [Pause.] MJ [Col SPATH]: All right. Mr. Sheeran, I am going to give you a standard order, and this relates to -- because I recognize where you work. I'm focused in specifically as related to the Appellate Exhibit series. That's the unlawful influence motion and the follow-on that we are dealing with now. So I know you kind of recognize that field of play. And the order is until we are finished with that, until I issue my ruling, if you would, don't discuss your testimony or your knowledge of this issue with anybody in the office or really anybody else, because we do have some other people or at least one other person testifying, and I don't anticipate a ruling on this for a few more days. So just keep that in mind. Once the ruling is out that order is done with, but I know you understand that and recognize the scope of it. 0

41 0 Do you have any questions? WIT: No, I don't, sir; and yes, I do understand. MJ [Col SPATH]: All right. I know you are traveling. Congratulations about the graduation and travel safe. Thanks for your testimony. WIT: Thanks very much. LDC [MR. KAMMEN]: Your Honor, if I may? MJ [Col SPATH]: Hold on one second. LDC [MR. KAMMEN]: Depending upon what happens, may this witness be subject to recall? MJ [Col SPATH]: Absolutely. And Mr. Sheeran, I didn't mention you were subject to recall. Given where you work and the ability to have you come back and retestify, I know you recognize this, you may be recalled for additional testimony in the case. WIT: I understand. Yes, sir. MJ [Col SPATH]: All right. Thank you. You are excused. [The witness was warned, excused, and the VTC was terminated.] MJ [Col SPATH]: Mr. Kammen, you indicated a desire for a break today. Do you want a lunch break? I know it's late, but we also started late. LDC [MR. KAMMEN]: Here is our reality. I mean, everyone else started at, we started a lot earlier.

42 0 MJ [Col SPATH]: The only thing I will say is my guess is everybody here started well before :00. I don't know if people took advantage of eating food in that time. That's a different thing, but I don't want people to think out there that I decided I would start work today at :00, or the prosecution. LDC [MR. KAMMEN]: I am not suggesting. MJ [Col SPATH]: I think everybody here started early. I am just asking if you want a lunch break, because that was your indication. LDC [MR. KAMMEN]: That depends. If it is going to be one of these situations where it's going to be go till -- I mean, you know, if we're ---- MJ [Col SPATH]: I don't know how long -- is it Lieutenant Colonel -- Lieutenant Colonel Lewis' testimony is going to take. Do you have an idea of how long you are ---- LDC [MR. KAMMEN]: I mean, I don't know that it will be as long as Mr. Sheeran, but, again, I can't really predict. MJ [Col SPATH]: No. Here is what I would like to do today. We are not going to get to the other witnesses. We know that. I would like to get through her testimony, if we can, and I want to at least start the discussion of. We are not going to complete it today, I am confident. I think

43 0 we are going to complete it to such a degree that we can let the other trial counsel depart and not deal with it anymore this week. I just want to frame some of the issues and make sure we are all talking about the same thing, and then we are finished with -- not finished with it in the sense you will see a ruling on it, finished with it in the sense that it will frame our discussion so we can move forward with it. That is the goal for today. LDC [MR. KAMMEN]: I'm not sure -- I mean, if you are talking about setting a briefing schedule on, okay. If you are talking about addressing anything having to do with the merits of their request, that is a much lengthier discussion. MJ [Col SPATH]: Agreed. There are many different facets within that, and you all, I know, can't read kind of what I am thinking at this point. I believe the inquiry that I want to have with both sides is going to limit that field of play for right now. If it doesn't, we can readdress and come back tomorrow to continue on. I am just giving you kind of a feel for what I hope to get through today, understanding that my plans rarely survive the beginning ---- LDC [MR. KAMMEN]: It's probably hunger, but I have to be

44 0 honest: I have no idea what you are trying to say. MJ [Col SPATH]: I understand. Well, no, the discussion on is going to be reasonably limited because of where we are at this point. I have a few questions for both sides. Probably there is some discussion you all want to have. But I'm not in a position, like I am with some other motions, where I feel comfortable that the field of play is such that I can start ruling on them. I'm not there yet. But I need to understand what you all are saying to me in, and I recognize those prosecutors aren't here. So that's what I want to do. If it is something that's going to go fast, that's great, we will have them on their way and we can finish it down the road or through motion filings. That's what I am trying to say. So if you want a break, we can take a break. LDC [MR. KAMMEN]: Let me -- I think we need some kind of break because we have been going -- I am not suggesting no one else has been working, but we have been in here since :0. MJ [Col SPATH]: I know that to be true. Why don't we take, why don't we come on at 00. That's a little over an hour. That's an hour and minutes. Counsel, I will see you with Lieutenant Colonel It would help if I could tell time, right? And we will have Lieutenant Colonel Lewis

45 ready to go at 00. Mr. Kammen, does that work for you? LDC [MR. KAMMEN]: Yes. MJ [Col SPATH]: Good? TC [MR. MILLER]: Thank you, Your Honor. MJ [Col SPATH]: Mr. Miller, thank you. We are in recess. [The R.M.C. 0 session recessed at, December.] [END OF PAGE] 0