< 1> officers? < 2> A. That is correct, sir. < 3> Q. Who also conducted house-to-house? < 4> A. That is right sir, yes. < 5> Q. Apart from the briefin

Transcription

1 < 1> Wednesday, 8th April, < 2> <KEITH HUGHES, (Continued) < 3> <CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR GOMPERTZ < 4> Q. Detective Constable Hughes, you will remember < 5> you told us yesterday how you and Detective Constable < 6> Graham Cook organised the Plumstead Crime Squad < 7> officers in order to carry out house-to-house < 8> enquiries and how you went from Plumstead Police < 9> Station at about 7.30 in the morning to Eltham Police <10> Station where you were briefed by DI Jeynes. Is that <11> right? <12> A. That is correct sir, yes. <13> Q. You, then with other officers, not necessarily <14> all there at the beginning I think, then started <15> house-to-house enquiries, starting from the centre, <16> as it were, of the incident and working outwards. Is <17> that right? <18> A. That is correct sir, yes. <19> Q. I think apart from yourself and Mr Cook do these <20> names ring a bell, I am not going to turn up the <21> documentation: Reed, Rolfe, Andrews I think, a lady, <22> another lady Aitcheson, Conroy and Appleby? <23> A. That is correct, sir, they are all constables. <24> Q. In addition to that were you, not immediately, <25> but in the fullness of time supported by TSG. P-2100 HUGHES

2 < 1> officers? < 2> A. That is correct, sir. < 3> Q. Who also conducted house-to-house? < 4> A. That is right sir, yes. < 5> Q. Apart from the briefing that you went to given < 6> by Detective Inspector Jeynes in the morning can we < 7> look, please, at another note of a meeting which is < 8> PCA 32 at page 3, it come up on the screen for you. < 9> Do we see that that took place on the Saturday <10> evening between 5.00 pm and 6.50 pm and various <11> matters were discussed, gone into, this was under the <12> aegis of Mr Crampton, the senior investigating <13> officer. <14> If we go down the page a bit please where it <15> says: <16> "Re male a non-informant. ID known to SIO. <17> Information supplied re named suspects." It sets out <18> the names of the Acourts, Norris, Dobson and one or <19> two other matters about them. <20> Can you recollect whether you were present at <21> that briefing on the Saturday evening? <22> A. I believe I was sir, yes. <23> Q. Yes. Was it, in part, as a result of that <24> briefing that you went the next day to Bournbrook <25> Road posing, as it were, as an ordinary. P-2101 HUGHES

3 < 1> house-to-house enquiry team? < 2> A. I cannot comment if it was as a direct result of < 3> that meeting, all I know is on the Sunday I was < 4> approached by the SIO and asked to go to that < 5> address. < 6> Q. Before we go on to the Sunday, I am sorry to go < 7> back, on the Friday morning when you started your < 8> house-to-house enquiries did you see a PULSAR Team in < 9> operation? <10> A. Yes I did sir, yes. <11> Q. Can you explain what a PULSAR Team is? <12> A. They are a specialist search unit that are <13> brought in, as I say, for specialist search <14> facilities. There was a sergeant in charge of the <15> team and I recall speaking to him at some point in <16> the vicinity of Dickson Road. <17> Q. Do you know who that sergeant was? <18> A. I don't know his name. He is quite a tall chap, <19> red face. <20> Q. What, in very general terms, were they doing? <21> A. I think their remit was to search for the <22> weapon, the murder weapon. <23> Q. Is that what they were doing? <24> A. I believe so, yes sir. <25> Q. I can ask others more about that. Let us go on. P-2102 HUGHES

4 < 1> to the Sunday because you have been criticised in < 2> cross-examination yesterday by Mr Mansfield about the < 3> records which you kept of that visit. You, no doubt, < 4> remember very well. You were asked, first of all, < 5> about PCA 45 at page 47 please. Do you remember, the < 6> form for Mr Burke running to two pages? < 7> A. That is correct sir, yes. < 8> Q. Then if we go to PCA 45, page 49, that is the < 9> form for Patricia Acourt which was your form, was it <10> not? <11> A. That is correct sir, yes. <12> Q. One of the criticisms that was put to you was <13> that you did not investigate in any way, ask any <14> questions about or anything of that sort, the <15> presence or absence of the two Acourt boys and the <16> two Lamb boys in the house at the time that you were <17> there. Do you remember that criticism? <18> A. I do sir, yes. <19> Q. Can we go back to PCA 45 at page 46 please. If <20> we can go over to the left-hand side then up to the <21> top of the page just so that we can see the <22> document. Can we go up slightly, there we are, thank <23> you. Is this a form which is part of the <24> house-to-house paperwork? <25> A. Yes it is sir, yes.. P-2103 HUGHES

5 < 1> Q. We see that is specifies the address. There is < 2> no telephone number. Officer completing form, your < 3> colleague DC McDonald. Is that right? < 4> A. That is correct, sir. < 5> Q. Let us just see what he has put down. First of < 6> all, he has put down the names of 6 occupants. Is < 7> that right? < 8> A. That is correct, sir. < 9> Q. Two of whom you saw the top one, Patricia Acourt <10> and Mr Burke and four of whom you did not see? <11> A. That's correct sir, yes. <12> Q. Obviously some questions were asked about them, <13> would this be right, for their names and particulars <14> to be recorded? <15> A. That is exactly that I said yesterday sir, yes. <16> Q. Here we see the actual document on which you <17> recorded the information. <18> Amongst the information recorded of dates of <19> birth and the occupations of the 4 and then in the <20> next column against Patricia Acourt's name there is a <21> tick where it says "scene"? <22> A. That is correct. <23> Q. There is not one against Mr Burke's name? <24> A. No, I can't explain that sir, he was seen, he <25> was there.. P-2104 HUGHES

6 < 1> Q. That is a mistake, is it? < 2> A. It should have been ticked. < 3> Q. So far as the other 4 were concerned, did you < 4> ask whether they were present in the house? < 5> A. As I said yesterday I did, sir. That question < 6> was asked. < 7> Q. Had they been there, would have you asked to see < 8> them? < 9> A. Very much, sir, yes. <10> Q. And recorded particulars of what they had to say <11> about the matter? <12> A. We would have recorded the normal door-to-door <13> enquiry forms as we were instructed to do, nothing <14> more, nothing less. <15> THE CHAIRMAN: That form is not taken by you to the <16> house, is it? <17> A. Yes it is, sir. <18> Q. Both of them? <19> A. Yes. <20> Q. I knew there were two forms but we only saw one <21> yesterday, you take the full form with you? <22> A. They are part of a package. <23> Q. Is that your writing? <24> A. That is the other officer, Mr McDonald's <25> writing.. P-2105 HUGHES

7 < 1> THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. < 2> MR GOMPERTZ: To complete the picture, I wonder if we < 3> can have a message which is MET 84 at page 6. That < 4> is a message sent by DC McDonald, put into the system < 5> on 25th April. Is that right? < 6> A. It is actually accepted into the system on < 7> 25th April. < 8> Q. 25th April 1993, the date at the very top. We < 9> can ignore 24th May 1995, that is when the document <10> was printed out? <11> A. Yes. <12> Q. Let us go down a page, if we may, please. It is <13> in very similar terms your statement but in more <14> summary form, you give the fact of attendance. <15> "Persons present: Patricia Ann Acourt and her <16> boyfriend John Anthony Burke. House-to-house <17> questionnaires completed on forms MIR 2 and 4. <18> Patricia Acourt named the following persons <19> all her sons as residents there." Then you set out <20> their names and dates of birth. "... none of whom <21> were present." Is that right? <22> A. That is correct, sir. <23> Q. I am sorry to go on about it but since you were <24> criticised about it yesterday, did you ask whether <25> they were present in the house?. P-2106 HUGHES

8 < 1> A. As I said yesterday and I say now, yes, sir I < 2> did. < 3> Q. Thank were. Were you debriefed after your visit < 4> to the Acourt house? < 5> A. Yes I was, sir. < 6> Q. Can I ask you about another aspect of enquiries < 7> on this day because although it is not you I would < 8> like to know what you say about it since the officer < 9> concerned -- I do not think at present at any rate -- <10> is scheduled to be a witness. I wonder if we can <11> see the statement of DC Cook who mentioned as <12> organising the house-to-house enquiries with you. <13> When I say "the statement" I mean the one at MET 76, <14> page 30 please. It is a statement of Graham Cook <15> dated 25th April. What he says is: "On that date I <16> was on duty of house-to-house enquiries in the <17> Lawrence murder when at I went to number 13 <18> Phineas-Pett Road, Eltham SE9. At that address I <19> spoke to Gary Dobson in the presence of his father, <20> Stephen Dobson, who completed a house-to-house <21> questionnaire." <22> Before we go on let me ask you this: that time <23> 6 o'clock in the evening on Sunday 25th is almost the <24> same as the time which you arrived at the Acourt <25> household. 10 minutes difference I think?. P-2107 HUGHES

9 < 1> A. That is correct sir, yes. < 2> Q. Seeing this statement does that bring back to < 3> your mind the fact that this was an organised or < 4> concerted visit to these those two addresses at more < 5> or less the same time? < 6> A. It would wrong for me to say definitively yes it < 7> would but I am fairly certain that that was the SIOs < 8> intention, yes. < 9> Q. While we have the statement here let us go down <10> the page a bit and a description is given. "I <11> questioned Gary Dobson if he was at the scene of the <12> murder of Lawrence on Thursday, 22nd, Well Hall Road" <13> and then we have what Dobson said about it. <14> Would have you done the same had you been able <15> to see either of the Acourt brothers or, indeed, the <16> Lamb brothers? <17> A. Very much so, yes. <18> Q. We see the answer he gives and he what he says <19> about it. In the last two lines on that page: <20> "After leaving the house I continued my other <21> enquiries in Appleton Road, SE9. At I saw Gary <22> Dobson" -- if we can just go -- "he'd changed, he was <23> in company with a white female. Both walked up <24> Appleton Road, SE9 turned left into Bournbrook Road <25> and then went into 102 Bournbrook Road, SE9. They. P-2108 HUGHES

10 < 1> stayed at the address for about 5 minutes, then left < 2> and walked off towards Well Hall Road and Eltham. < 3> Then they both went to McDonald's Restaurant arriving < 4> at " < 5> Well, it sounds as though Mr Cook or somebody on < 6> his behalf, but probably Mr Cook as he made the < 7> statement, was actually observing the movements of < 8> Dobson. Right? < 9> A. That is correct sir, yes. <10> Q. What I want to ask you, if you cannot speak <11> about that happened in McDonald's Restaurant and so <12> on, did you see Dobson come to the Acourt house while <13> were you there? <14> A. No I didn't, no. <15> Q. Very well. Let me then turn to the other topic <16> which is dealt within your Kent statement, your visit <17> to two addresses elsewhere in the locality, which, <18> obviously, I will not name. <19> Can we have, first of all, MET 84, page 172, <20> which is the HOLMES version of the handwritten <21> message you looked at yesterday. If we go down that <22> we see that it starts off by saying that during the <23> course of house-to-house enquiries you attended and <24> spoke to a lady who is named. She could not assist <25> but suggested that you spoke to her daughter and you. P-2109 HUGHES

11 < 1> did so. As a result of speaking to the daughter you < 2> were flagged, as it were, to another address; is that < 3> right? < 4> A. That is correct, yes. < 5> Q. That was the address of DD. < 6> This is message No 274. If you go up we can see < 7> that in the top right-hand corner. In fact, were you < 8> asked to look yesterday at two messages, 274 and 271, < 9> which we will look at in just a moment. It looks as <10> though 274 came first? <11> A. It did, sir, yes. <12> Q. Perhaps we can go onto 271, please, which is <13> MET 84, 166. That is the machine version, if I can <14> so describe it; is that right? <15> A. That's correct, sir, yes. <16> Q. If you go down a little bit and you talk about <17> going to the address and speaking to EE at length and <18> it was read yesterday. So it looks as though you <19> paid, would this be right, two visits to that <20> address. On the first occasion as a result of what <21> you were told at another address you went and saw DD, <22> right? <23> Is this the same occasion or a different <24> occasion that you spoke to EE at length? <25> A. I actually think it is the same occasion. I. P-2110 HUGHES

12 < 1> think the chap came in. < 2> Q. Why do you say that and why were there two < 3> messages? < 4> A. There is two messages because if one message < 5> becomes too unwieldy it is suggested that perhaps the < 6> two messages could be put in together on two < 7> different message pads. One dealing with one set of < 8> subjects and the latter obviously dealing with the < 9> conversation with this chap. <10> Q. So you think there was only one visit by you <11> ---- <12> A. By me. <13> Q to the DD household on the date you are <14> talking about? <15> A. That's right. <16> Q. Can you help us about date because the date of <17> input into HOLMES may or may not assist. We see the <18> message date as 29th April. Can you help about when <19> it was that you went? <20> A. Yes, sir. It was the 28th that we went to the <21> first address and you can see, as I said yesterday, <22> from the door-to-door enquiry forms. <23> MR GOMPERTZ: Thank you very much, indeed. That is <24> all that I want to ask you. <25> THE CHAIRMAN: Anybody else want to ask him any. P-2111 HUGHES

13 < 1> questions? Thank you very much, indeed, Officer, for < 2> your evidence. You can leave now. Thank you for < 3> coming. < 4> (The Witness Withdrew) < 5> MR LAWSON: The next witness is former Detective < 6> Inspector Jeynes. < 7> THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, thank you very much. < 8> Thank you for coming, Mr Jeynes. Would you take < 9> a seat. Make sure the microphone is in the right <10> position but speak up so that we can all hear your <11> evidence. Mr Lawson for the Inquiry will question <12> you first. <13> <PHILIP MARTIN JEYNES, (sworn) <14> <EXAMINED BY MR LAWSON <15> Q. Mr Jeynes, your name is Philip Martin Jeynes, is <16> it not? <17> A. Yes, sir. <18> Q. You were until October of last year a detective <19> inspector in the Metropolitan Police Force? <20> A. I was, yes. <21> Q. You retired in October last year, having <22> completed 30 years service? <23> A. Yes, sir. <24> Q. In terms of your police background, Mr Jeynes, I <25> think perhaps you can just confirm this. Can we have. P-2112 JEYNES

14 < 1> on the screen please PCA 49 at page 4, the bottom < 2> half of the page, please. For convenience, the Kent < 3> investigators asked but your background, did they < 4> not? < 5> You joined the police in 1967 serving, < 6> initially, in the East End as a constable? < 7> A. Yes. < 8> Q. Then after passing the sergeant's exam you went < 9> to Croyden as a uniformed sergeant? <10> A. Yes, sir. <11> Q. Then transferring to the CID initially at <12> Holborn ---- <13> A. Yes, sir. <14> Q as a detective sergeant. Then on the Fraud <15> Squad and further promoted to Inspector. You were at <16> Kennington as a uniformed Inspector, initially, prior <17> to going to Penge in South London, South-East London <18> as a detective inspector? <19> A. That is right, sir, yes. <20> Q. Then, as you described, you had a period in <21> charge of the Child Protection Team? <22> A. Yes, sir. <23> Q. Then you went to Plumstead as a detective <24> inspector which looks to be about in 1992; is that <25> right?. P-2113 JEYNES

15 < 1> A. That would be about right. < 2> Q. I think finally you completed your service at < 3> Orpington, did you not? < 4> A. I did, sir, yes. < 5> Q. Perhaps I can also you ask you this. It might < 6> be convenient to do so with reference to the same < 7> document. If we go to the next page, page 6. The < 8> next but one page. It is page 6 we want. You were < 9> asked about your previous involvement in what were <10> called major crime screens. Obviously, you knew what <11> they were talking about? <12> A. Yes, sir. <13> Q. You were, understandably, unable to be specific <14> but you indicated that you had been involved in quite <15> a number of murders, yes? <16> A. Yes, sir. <17> Q. Some 15 or 20, perhaps ---- <18> A. Probably about ---- <19> Q of crime scenes? <20> A. Yes, sir, that would be a reasonable guess, I <21> would have thought. <22> Q. Where you had attended at a fairly early stage? <23> A. Yes. <24> Q. Thank you very much. Can I go, please, and ask <25> to be put on the screen your 1993 statement, PCA 39. P-2114 JEYNES

16 < 1> at 303. < 2> This you will recognise to be generated by the < 3> HOLMES computer. It is a typed version. I imagine < 4> you had a chance to look at it before giving < 5> evidence? < 6> A. I have, sir, yes. < 7> Q. It bears the date, as we can see, 1st October < 8> 1993? < 9> A. Yes, sir. <10> Q. Correct? This appears to be the first statement <11> that you made? <12> A. Yes, sir. <13> Q. Does it not? Do you remember for that purpose <14> it was made? Obviously, somebody asked to you make <15> it, but were you told why it was needed? <16> A. I think it was generated from the Inquiry. I <17> had not been asked prior to this to make a statement <18> and I think this was possibly the first time that I <19> was asked to make the statement. <20> Q. I think we should perhaps identify in broad <21> terms the limited involvement that you had in this <22> matter. <23> As I understand, but correct me if I am wrong, <24> your involvement was from the early hours of the <25> morning of 23rd April?. P-2115 JEYNES

17 < 1> A. Yes, at about < 2> Q. Until later on the same day? < 3> A. Yes, it was about -- I think maybe about < 4> 10 o'clock actually I handed everything over to < 5> Mr Bullock. < 6> Q. Did your involvement effectively end with your < 7> visit made to Mr and Mrs Lawrence and then you < 8> returning to the police station to report and to hand < 9> over to Mr Bullock? <10> A. Yes. <11> Q. Is that a fair summary? <12> A. That would be, sir, yes. <13> Q. In any event, somebody obviously asked you to <14> make this statement in October 1993? <15> A. Yes, sir. <16> Q. It does not appear, Mr Jeynes, that you had any <17> notes to refer to, does it? <18> A. No, sir. <19> Q. Did you, as far as you recollect, make any notes <20> at all at the time? <21> A. No, sir. <22> Q. So this statement was obviously substantially <23> prepared from memory? <24> A. Yes, sir. <25> Q. With the exception, I guess, and if we look to. P-2116 JEYNES

18 < 1> the end of it, page 305, there is a catalogue of < 2> exhibits that you received. You must have received < 3> that from some other source. < 4> A. Yes, I did sir, yes. < 5> Q. I am sure it matters not. Let us go back, if we < 6> may, to the beginning of it. You refer to receiving < 7> a phone call at about pm? < 8> A. Yes, sir. < 9> Q. At your home? <10> A. Yes, sir. <11> Q. Were you in bed and asleep at the time? <12> A. I was, sir, yes. <13> Q. I think, just to explain, you at the time were <14> on call, so to speak, all of the time as a detective <15> inspector at Plumstead. <16> A. Yes, sir. <17> Q. You explained to the Kent investigators that I <18> think your fellow detective inspector was otherwise <19> engaged in another inquiry? <20> A. Yes, sir. <21> Q. The effect of which was you were on call 24 <22> hours a day? <23> A. Yes, sir. <24> Q. As a matter of interest, had you been on duty -- <25> actively on duty earlier on that day?. P-2117 JEYNES

19 < 1> A. I had, sir, yes. < 2> Q. You were at home in bed when you got the phone < 3> call which at that stage was reporting a serious < 4> assault? < 5> A. Yes, sir. < 6> Q. As your statement makes clear, requesting your < 7> presence at the scene in Well Hall Road. You went < 8> there and your statement indicates that you arrived < 9> there at about 12.15? <10> A. Yes, sir. <11> Q. The first person you saw -- that may not be <12> right. Who was the first person you saw at the scene <13> or spoke to at the scene? <14> A. It was a uniformed PC manning a cordon. <15> Q. So he let you through, presumably? <16> A. Yes, sir. <17> Q. The first person you actually spoke to about the <18> incident? <19> A. Was DC Pine. <20> Q. Before we go any further, there is a number of <21> things I want to ask you about generally? <22> A. Yes, sir. <23> Q. Many of which were dealt with in your interview <24> by the Kent Police. You agreed with the suggestion <25> made by the Kent investigators that when you arrived. P-2118 JEYNES

20 < 1> at the scene took on the role of senior investigator? < 2> A. Yes, sir. < 3> Q. Indeed, you retained that role, as you explained < 4> to them, until Mr Crampton arrived on the scene; is < 5> that right? < 6> A. Yes, sir. < 7> Q. Later on in your statement, we need not look at < 8> it now, you estimated his arrival time at about 1.45? < 9> A. Yes, sir that would be about right, sir. <10> Q. So between your arrival at about and <11> Mr Crampton's arrival at about quarter to two in the <12> morning, you were and regarded yourself as the senior <13> investigator at the scene? <14> A. Yes, sir. <15> Q. The Kent Police asked you if you could give an <16> indication of what you saw as your priorities in such <17> circumstances. Could we look at it on the screen, <18> please, PCA 49 at page 7. That is the lower half of <19> the page. The question is just off the top, there it <20> is: "What would be your priorities?" You said: "When <21> you arrive at a scene you have to look at preserving <22> the scene, looking for witness, ensuring <23> house-to-house enquiries are completed. Making sure <24> that all the forensic services are notified and on <25> way, arranging for families to be the notified"?. P-2119 JEYNES

21 < 1> A. Yes, sir. < 2> Q. Do you stand by that as being a summary of the < 3> steps or the priorities that you would have? < 4> A. Well, there was one thing missing which was so < 5> obvious I forgot to state it, which was also to < 6> arrest any suspects. < 7> Q. Yes. I was going ask you about that. < 8> You would want information immediately as to < 9> whether there were any likely suspects? <10> A. Yes, sir. <11> Q. With a view to taking steps to try to find them <12> and if you could find them arrest them? <13> A. Yes. <14> Q. Accordingly presumably when you arrive at the <15> scene it is necessary for to you receive a full and <16> accurate account of all information that has been <17> received so far? <18> A. It is, sir, yes. <19> Q. Including obviously and most importantly any <20> descriptions of suspects? <21> A. Yes, sir. <22> Q. Reverting to your statement, if we may, please <23> at PCA 39, 303. You said here that you liaised with <24> Mr Pye? <25> A. Yes, sir.. P-2120 JEYNES

22 < 1> Q. Who told you that the victim had died and that < 2> the relatives had been informed and were at the < 3> hospital? < 4> A. Yes, sir. < 5> Q. And police were also at the hospital? < 6> A. Yes, sir. < 7> Q. Now, what did he tell you had happened as far as < 8> was known at that stage? < 9> A. That there had been a fight. Let me get this <10> right -- from the limited information that had been <11> obtained from, I think talking with Duwayne Brooks, <12> that Stephen and Duwayne were waiting at the bus stop <13> at Well Hall Road. Stephen walked down towards the <14> roundabout to see if there was bus coming and Duwayne <15> was hanging back by the bus stop. Duwayne saw a <16> group of lads running across the roundabout in their <17> direction and told Stephen to run. Then both of them <18> turned around and ran. He looked back and saw <19> Stephen surrounded by the group, saw an arm raised <20> one or two times, saw Stephen fall and then the lads <21> ran off along Dickson Road. Stephen had got up, ran <22> up the road and then collapsed. <23> I think that was basically about the strength of <24> the information that we received at the time, that I <25> received from DC Pye.. P-2121 JEYNES

23 < 1> Q. Doing your best, I appreciate it can be < 2> difficult, Mr Jeynes, doing your best to recollect < 3> whether that was information you received then or < 4> something that you learned later, do you think that < 5> what you told us was, in fact, what you learned then? < 6> A. I can't recall being told anything other than < 7> that. I mean, it might well be that after 5 years I < 8> have got it wrong. There was lot of information < 9> coming in at that time and it was to the best of my <10> recollection that is what I think happened. <11> Q. Do you recollect whether you were told that any <12> description had been given of any of the attackers? <13> A. No. <14> Q. That would presumably have been something from <15> what you have said to me already that you would have <16> been very interested in? <17> A. Yes, sir. <18> Q. What you told to us just now, if I may point <19> this out to you, the sort of account which you have <20> given which, if you are accurate in your <21> recollection, really must have come from the <22> conversation that had been had at the hospital <23> between a Police Constable and Mr Brooks? <24> A. I don't know, sir. That was relayed to me, I <25> think, by DC Pye.. P-2122 JEYNES

24 < 1> Q. We know for your information that certainly not < 2> that much information was provided at the scene? < 3> A. Well then I can only apologise, sir, that is < 4> what I recollect. < 5> Q. You do have a recollection of a story to that < 6> effect being told to you on your arrival at the scene < 7> at 12.15? < 8> A. Yes, sir. < 9> Q. No descriptions? <10> A. No, sir. <11> Q. You would have asked were there any descriptions <12> and presumably you were told no? <13> A. Yes, sir. <14> Q. As a matter of fact a description had been given <15> by Duwayne Brooks to Constable Gleason in a statement <16> that was written down in Gleason's notebook shortly <17> before midnight on that night. Presumably that <18> description should have been conveyed to you as the <19> senior investigating officer at the scene? <20> A. I wasn't aware of that. <21> Q. It should have been as the priority? <22> A. I would have thought so sir, yes. <23> Q. You said, again looking at your statement, that <24> Pye told you the relatives had been informed. Yes? <25> A. Yes, sir.. P-2123 JEYNES

25 < 1> Q. One of your priorities that we were looking at < 2> before was arranging for families to be notified? < 3> A. Yes, sir. < 4> Q. You understood that had been done? < 5> A. Yes, sir. < 6> Q. Did he tell you who had done that or any more < 7> than simply it had happened? < 8> A. No all I remember him telling me that Mr and < 9> Mrs Lawrence were, in fact, at the hospital. <10> Q. Whose responsibility would it have been or was <11> it at this time, this is after your arrival at the <12> scene, to ensure that proper information was being <13> given to the parents, the relatives, that they were <14> being properly dealt with, looked after et cetera. <15> Who was responsible for that? <16> A. The there was an officer at the hospital and I <17> have a recollection of sending another officer down <18> there. I thought it was Mr Little to actually go <19> down to the hospital. <20> Q. Yes? <21> A. And liaise with the family down there. <22> Q. I will come back to the question of dealings <23> with the family a little later on, if I may. First <24> can I ask you about something different: your <25> statement refers to the information you received. P-2124 JEYNES

26 < 1> about the area being cordoned off, et cetera? < 2> A. Yes, sir. < 3> Q. You can presumably see it for yourself and < 4> requests having been made for a photographer and CID < 5> officers to turn up. What I want to ask about is the < 6> scene log. Right. Which you know about because that < 7> is something that the Kent investigators asked you < 8> quite a lot about, is it not? < 9> A. Yes, sir. <10> Q. It is right to say in summary, is it not, that <11> you recollected as you told them that a scene log was <12> maintained? <13> A. An officer was taking a note of who was arriving <14> at the scene and what time they were arriving sir, <15> yes. <16> Q. An uniformed officer who you were unable to <17> identify? <18> A. He was a Plumstead officer but who he was I <19> can't remember now. I don't know all of them and <20> they didn't know me. <21> Q. So an unknown uniformed Plumstead officer? <22> A. Unknown to me sir, yes. <23> Q. And to us. You have not discovered his identity <24> since? <25> A. Well I remember reading in the statements of one. P-2125 JEYNES

27 < 1> of the Plumstead officers that he was actually making < 2> notes of names. < 3> Q. Well, a variety of officers were making notes < 4> but was this officer actually maintaining what could < 5> properly be described as a scene log. A note of the < 6> comings and goings from the scene? < 7> A. I believe so sir, yes. < 8> Q. But you do not-- < 9> A. Somebody was definitely deputed. <10> Q. By? <11> A. I don't know, sir, I got there an hour and a <12> half afterwards. I presume it could have been DC <13> Pye, it could have been Mr Benn. It could have been <14> any of the officers who were there before me. <15> Q. Let us look at this, if we may. You are <16> certainly familiar with the expression "a scene log", <17> are you not. There is a scene log? <18> A. Yes, sir I am familiar with the expression. <19> Q. You are familiar with the practice requiring a <20> scene log to be maintained at a major crime scene? <21> A. It is historical practice, yes sir. <22> Q. I am asking you this because others have not <23> been aware of this, you are the first of our <24> witnesses who know of it. It is somebody being <25> required to note the comings and goings?. P-2126 JEYNES

28 < 1> A. Yes, sir. < 2> Q. Who was attending the scene? < 3> A. Yes, sir. < 4> Q. What house-to-house enquiries had been carried < 5> out? < 6> A. No, sir. No, that is totally wrong. < 7> Q. Totally wrong? < 8> A. Yes. < 9> Q. For a scene log to be-- <10> A. A scene log is there to note who comes in and <11> what time they come in and what time they leave the <12> premises. <13> Q. And who attends if house-to-house enquiries are <14> done? <15> A. It is up to the individual officers at a later <16> date to actually in their statements to note what <17> houses they go to and what actions they take. The <18> scene log we are discussing here is not for that <19> purpose. The scene log is for forensic purposes and <20> there it enables the inquiry to know who was there so <21> at a later date they can go to them to take <22> statements from them. <23> Q. I accept the rebuke of course but in my own <24> mitigation can I show you why it is I ask you that <25> question in those words, PCA 49 at page 8. The foot. P-2127 JEYNES

29 < 1> of the previous page, the foot of page 7. You were < 2> asked: < 3> "As far as all these things", these are your < 4> priorities that we just referred to "... would you or < 5> have you in the past ever caused immediate records or < 6> records to be kept of various things that you have < 7> done < 8> right away?" You said: "Not myself personally. I < 9> don't personally take any notes unless I am actually <10> gathering evidence. I certainly ensure that there is <11> a scene log is kept, that somebody is noting who is <12> coming and who is coming out and who attends if <13> house-to-house enquiries are done." <14> A. Yes, sir. <15> Q. "...depending on the circumstances where they <16> have actually been"? <17> A. Yes, sir. <18> Q. That is why I asked the stupid question I did? <19> A. It wasn't a stupid question, sir. <20> Q. All right. So is that accurate? <21> A. Certainly the first part is. <22> Q. But the second part is not? <23> A. No, sir. <24> Q. Help us, why did you describe it in that manner <25> to the Kent investigators?. P-2128 JEYNES

30 < 1> A. Probably I made a mistake, sir. I did make a < 2> mistake. < 3> Q. Let us just track through, if we may, because it < 4> was a topic that was returned to, the question of the < 5> scene log by the Kent investigators. If we can go to < 6> PCA 49 at page 17. You see there in the middle of < 7> the screen "was there a scene log in existence?" I < 8> should perhaps pause, I did not, Mr Jeynes, forgive < 9> me for not having done so in your case I have done <10> with others, there is reference there to the <11> Regulation 7 Notice that had you received, had you <12> not, that notice so far as were you concerned in <13> common with others there was an investigation into an <14> allegation of failure to ensure that there was a <15> proper record maintained at the scene? <16> A. Yes, sir. <17> Q. Right. So they asked you, with reference to <18> that, "was there a scene log?" You said: "Yes, there <19> was"? <20> A. Yes, sir. <21> Q. You were asked: "Who had it going, who was doing <22> it?" You said you racked your brains but you can't <23> think who it was? <24> A. Yes. <25> Q. You said: "I know there was one because Pye. P-2129 JEYNES

31 < 1> introduced me to whoever it was and I distinctly < 2> remember introducing Crampton and Turnbull to him and < 3> telling them who he was"? < 4> A. Yes, sir. < 5> Q. You were asked further about it, where he was. < 6> You said: "He was at the scene at Dickson Road"? < 7> A. Yes, sir. < 8> Q. Going over the page, you have a feeling it was a < 9> male officer? <10> A. Yes, sir. <11> Q. "A local officer, Plumstead, because he had a <12> helmet on"? <13> A. Yes, sir. <14> Q. That being in distinction to the TSG? <15> A. Who wear flat caps and he certainly would have <16> been a Plumstead officer because he was a local <17> officer. So it would have been deputed to him, yes. <18> Q. You were then asked about whether had you had <19> actually seen the log. There were two questions in <20> one: "Did you actually see this log? and did you sign <21> it yourself?" You said "no" but were you aware it was <22> going on, yes, you had not signed it? <23> A. No, sir. <24> Q. Go down a bit further please in answer to the <25> incomplete question "just satisfied yourself", et. P-2130 JEYNES

32 < 1> cetera you said: "It was being kept, my name was on < 2> it. I told them what time I got there"? < 3> A. Yes, sir. < 4> Q. "Who I was" and that is it? < 5> A. Yes, sir. < 6> Q. Then you were asked if you had ever seen < 7> anything resembling the log after that night and said < 8> no, you had not? < 9> A. That's right, sir. <10> Q. If we just complete this, if we go ahead please <11> page 29. Here, in fact, the questioning returned to <12> Mr Crampton's arrival. Yes? <13> A. Yes, sir. <14> Q. You say, as we can see there, in answer to the <15> question: "Did he turn up alone?" No, you had a <16> feeling that Turnbull had come with him? <17> A. Yes, sir. <18> Q. A vague recollection. Then you said: "No, I <19> think they must have been together because I remember <20> introducing them to the loggist, as to who they were <21> because he didn't know who they were"? <22> A. That's right, sir. <23> Q. He would need know their names to put them in <24> the log? <25> A. Yes, sir.. P-2131 JEYNES

33 < 1> Q. You say, I think if you go down the page: "I < 2> think the loggist actually came to me but he wasn't < 3> all that far away from where we were." Is that right? < 4> A. That's right sir, yes. I don't think even < 5> Mr Crampton or Turnbull were aware that I had < 6> actually told him who they were because they wandered < 7> off. < 8> Q. Then you refer to his wearing a helmet? < 9> A. Yes, sir. <10> Q. I hope I have done justice to it, I think I <11> referred to all of the material passages in your <12> interview where there was questioning or relevant <13> answers about the scene log. <14> So, the position in a nutshell, you are <15> confident that at scene log was being maintained? <16> A. That a list of the names of officer's attending <17> was being kept, sir, yes. <18> Q. You have no idea that happened to it? <19> A. I have absolutely no idea, sir. I mean, I left <20> the scene with Mr Crampton and, of course, it was <21> still on going. There might have been people still <22> arriving, people leaving, which would have to have <23> been written down so it still be going. <24> Q. Naturally. So what should ordinarily happen to <25> it?. P-2132 JEYNES

34 < 1> A. It should go into the incident room, sir. < 2> Q. And be retained there, presumably? < 3> A. As an original note and any action that needed < 4> doing from that would be taken obviously from there. < 5> Names of the officers would have gone up with the < 6> forensic material for fingerprint purposes. < 7> Q. There is contemporaneous note of everyone who < 8> came and went, the times of their coming and going? < 9> A. Yes, sir. <10> Q. You cannot help us at all about what has <11> happened to it? <12> A. No, sir. <13> Q. Let me then, perhaps reverting to your <14> statement, at page 303 of PCA 39. I am not going ask <15> you specifically questions from what is in the <16> statement but following the chronology. Stop there a <17> moment. We have looked that paragraph at the top of <18> the screen where you referred to information you had <19> received. Yes? <20> A. Yes. <21> Q. What I would like to know is who else was there, <22> in particular, more senior officers? It does not <23> have to be a memory test. Could you, please, look at <24> PCA 49 page 13. To the foot of the page, please. <25> You were asked the same question by Mr Kennett, were. P-2133 JEYNES

35 < 1> you not, in effect? < 2> A. Yes, sir. < 3> Q. You referred to a TSG Inspector you later found < 4> out was called Groves? < 5> A. Yes, sir. < 6> Q. There was the area Chief Superintendent, < 7> Mr Benn? < 8> A. Yes, sir. < 9> Q. We know he was new to the area. Was he a new <10> face to you? <11> A. Totally, sir, yes. <12> Q. You remember at some point McIvor being there? <13> A. Yes, sir. I think he was the late senior duty <14> officer. <15> Q. Then the other names that you mentioned were <16> Philpot and Crampton who arrived later on, yes? <17> A. Yes, sir. <18> Q. Did you or do you recollect having any <19> conversation with the TSG Inspector Groves? <20> A. Yes, sir, I do. <21> Q. What was that about? <22> A. It was to do with searching the gardens for <23> weapons and widening the scope of the house-to-house <24> enquiries, I think. <25> Q. What were you told had happened so far as. P-2134 JEYNES

36 < 1> house-to-house enquiries were concerned? < 2> A. There had been limited house-to-house enquiries < 3> done immediately opposite Dickson Road in Well Hall < 4> Road and that there was a DC taking a statement from < 5> somebody there and I think that ---- < 6> Q. I will interrupt you, forgive my rudeness, but < 7> for our record we know that must have been Mr Nugent? < 8> A. If you say so, sir. I cannot remember what his < 9> gentleman's name was. <10> I think there had been some limited enquiries <11> done actually down Dickson Road. <12> Q. Can you remember any further detail than that? <13> A. I remember him saying that he had been into the <14> Welcome Inn up in Well Hall, the area that he <15> cordoned off. I think that is about it, sir. I <16> can't recall anything else. <17> Q. Let me ask you about two other matters then, <18> both of which you touched upon already. I do not <19> think they are in your statement as such. First, <20> what you learned about Duwayne Brooks. Could we have <21> PCA 49, page 12 up, please. There, initially, are <22> you referring to what you told us about, limited <23> house-to-house enquiries and then go to the bottom of <24> the page. You said you established that there was <25> another eye witness?. P-2135 JEYNES

37 < 1> A. Yes, sir. < 2> Q. You say "another". This is in addition to the < 3> witness from whom the statement was being taken who < 4> you thought was or might be an eye witness? < 5> A. Yes, sir. < 6> Q. You established there was another eye witness, < 7> Duwayne Brooks, who was either at the police station < 8> or being taken there? < 9> A. Yes. <10> Q. It was you, was it, you think who caused one of <11> the CID officers at the scene to go to Plumstead to <12> take a statement from him? <13> A. I think so, sir, yes. <14> Q. Yes. The other matter I want to ask you about, <15> please, is on the next page of your interview, page <16> 13 at the top of the page. This is something you <17> have also touched upon. This is the reference to <18> Sergeant Little, the acting duty officer, being asked <19> to go to the hospital. Yes? <20> A. Yes, sir. <21> Q. What I do want to ask you about is: do you see <22> the earlier words of your answer. You refer to your <23> records of Tony Gleason being at the hospital and I <24> quote "having a bit of a problem down there"? <25> A. Yes.. P-2136 JEYNES

38 < 1> Q. What was the bit of a problem? < 2> A. I can't remember now, sir. < 3> Q. Do you remember that the nature of the problem < 4> was? < 5> A. I have a recollection that I did not think it < 6> was right that a PC should be dealing with the < 7> relatives just by himself, so I thought that I had < 8> actually sent Sergeant Little down there. It might < 9> have been another sergeant because there were other <10> uniformed sergeants actually at the scene that night <11> and I certainly would not have left Tony Gleason down <12> there by himself. I am sorry I cannot be any more <13> specific,. <14> Q. Why would you not leave him there by himself? <15> A. (a) because he is a PC and the sensitivity of <16> the situation. <17> Q. He had already been there for over an hour by <18> himself by the time you got to the scene? <19> A. Yes, sir. <20> Q. Other senior officers, you know, had previously <21> attended at the scene prior to your arrival there? <22> A. Yes, sir. <23> Q. It seemed to you obvious, did it, it was <24> inappropriate to leave a mere constable, not being <25> rude Mr Gleason, to deal with the matters at the. P-2137 JEYNES

39 < 1> hospital and liaising with the family, et cetera? < 2> A. Yes, sir. < 3> Q. Do you think somebody more senior should have < 4> been sent down there earlier? < 5> A. On reflection, yes, sir. I think when you think < 6> there was a chief inspector and two chief < 7> superintendents attended the scene that night. < 8> Q. You, in any event, took the initiative to send < 9> Little down there? <10> A. Yes, I thought it was Sergeant Little, but I am <11> checking that the timing of the statements, it could <12> not have been him, so it might well have been another <13> sergeant. Who it was ---- <14> Q. I do not want us to have red herrings. As a <15> matter of fact, you are right. It was Little who <16> went down there? <17> A. Oh, was it. Thank you, sir. <18> Q. The precise time is not certain, but he <19> certainly went down there. It was you who caused him <20> to go down there, was it? <21> A. That is what I can't recollect. That's what I'm <22> having trouble recollecting. I thought it was him <23> but if the timings are right then, yes, I must have <24> sent him down there. If not, then he could have gone <25> down there by himself and I was informed that was, in. P-2138 JEYNES

40 < 1> fact, down there. That is the only other option. < 2> Q. Your recollection at the time you were speaking < 3> to the Kent officers and the passage on the screen as < 4> to whether it was Sergeant Little or not, it was you < 5> who caused somebody else to go down to the hospital? < 6> A. Yes, sir. < 7> Q. You have a clear recollection of that? < 8> A. Yes, sir. < 9> Q. Because of this bit of a problem. Yes? You <10> were not sure who it was? <11> A. No, sir. <12> Q. We know, and no one doubts this, that the only <13> other officer to go down there prior to Mr Pye going <14> down much later to collect the property was Little? <15> A. Then it must have been him then. <16> Q. So it must have been him. How certain are you <17> about your arrival time at the scene of about 12.15? <18> A. I should think it is accurate 5 minutes either <19> way, I should think, sir. <20> Q. So sometime after midnight, in any event? <21> A. Yes, sir. <22> Q. Just remind ourselves, please. If we could look <23> on the screen -- forgive me. Could you put up, <24> Grace, please, PCA 45 at page 73. We see this is <25> from Constable Gleason's notebook. Yes? Can you see. P-2139 JEYNES

41 < 1> the bit that begins at am: < 2> "I was present when Neville Lawrence identified < 3> the body of his son"? < 4> A. Yes, sir. < 5> Q. That was prior to your arrival at the scene, was < 6> it not? < 7> A. Yes, sir. < 8> Q. Plainly prior to your sending Little to the < 9> hospital? <10> A. Yes, sir. <11> Q. Thank you. Let us go back to your own statement <12> at PCA 39, 303, the foot of that page. You speak of <13> being informed that the TSG had conducted a <14> restricted search. You wanted a wider search carried <15> out? <16> A. Yes, sir. <17> Q. And the scope of the house-to-house enquiry to <18> the widened? <19> A. Yes, sir. <20> Q. Then you say you asked the lab liaison officer <21> and the duty detective superintendent to be informed? <22> A. Yes, sir. <23> Q. At 1.15 you were told by Pye that the parents <24> were going home and did not want to see anybody until <25> the morning?. P-2140 JEYNES

42 < 1> A. Yes, sir. < 2> Q. Then Crampton arrives with Turnbull and you tell < 3> him that is happening? < 4> A. Yes, sir. < 5> Q. Against that general background one or two < 6> specifics, please. First, about what were you not < 7> told or what did not happen. We know that one of the < 8> first uniformed officers on the scene was WPC < 9> Bethel. Perhaps you now that now as well? <10> A. I know now, sir, yes. <11> Q. You, is this right, had no conversation with her <12> at the scene? <13> A. I can't remember, sir, no. I can't remember <14> speaking to her. <15> Q. You were asked specifically by Kent at PCA 49 at <16> page 25, at the foot of the page, please. You were <17> asked if you recollected speaking with her at all at <18> the scene and said ---- <19> A. I can't recall. <20> Q "No, I can't recall talking to her at all". <21> Did you know she had received the first account <22> from Duwayne Brooks of what had happened? <23> A. No, sir. <24> Q. You did not know that on the night? <25> A. No, sir.. P-2141 JEYNES

43 < 1> Q. It was not told to you obviously by her or < 2> apparently by Mr Pye? < 3> A. No, sir. < 4> Q. You were also, I understand, from what you said < 5> to the Kent police officers, unaware until sometime < 6> after your arrival that Stephen Lawrence was black? < 7> A. Yes. It was probably about 10 or 15 minutes I < 8> would think, sir. < 9> Q. There is no trick to my question. Fifteen <10> minutes or so you told the Kent authorities. We need <11> not look at it time. PCA 49, 45 for reference <12> purposes? <13> A. That would be about right, sir. <14> Q. So you were not told that initially. What would <15> Dwayne Brooks, did you realise he was black <16> initially? <17> A. No, sir. <18> Q. Did you realise that the attackers were white <19> initially? <20> A. I don't think when I was first briefed on what <21> had happened whether it was actually relayed to me of <22> whether the attackers were white then. I think once <23> the information started coming from Mr Nugent, I <24> think it was about that time that we got better <25> description that they were white lads that was about. P-2142 JEYNES

44 < 1> it. Running away. < 2> Q. In what circumstances did you discover that < 3> Stephen was black and what led someone to say that to < 4> you? < 5> A. I don't know, sir. < 6> Q. At some time at the scene you came to realise < 7> that Stephen and his friend were black and that the < 8> attackers were reported to have been white? < 9> A. Yes, certainly within 10 or 15 minutes sir, yes. <10> Q. At which point you would have been alive <11> obviously to considerations of this being a racist <12> attack. <13> A. It was a possibility to consider sir, yes. <14> Q. Did you consider it? <15> A. Not right away sir, no. <16> Q. Why was that? <17> A. Because I didn't really want to make any <18> assumptions. I would have been looking at the scene <19> and looking at any additional evidence that I could <20> get at that particular time. Obviously I was <21> interested in preserving the scene, tracing witnesses <22> and hoping we arrest any suspects, that was the main <23> priority for me at that time but certainly I do not <24> think within the first -- maybe the first hour <25> because I was pretty busy doing that I should have. P-2143 JEYNES

45 < 1> been doing. < 2> Q. Namely? < 3> A. I just explained to you, sir. < 4> Q. Can you just tell me again please? < 5> A. Preserving the scene. < 6> Q. That had been done, had it not? < 7> A. Parts of it. Searching for weapons. < 8> Q. Yes? < 9> A. Organising the search, briefing Mr Groves, <10> briefing the senior officers who arrived and widening <11> the house-to-house enquires. <12> Q. Was anything else done in terms of looking for <13> suspects? <14> A. No, sir because to only two people that we had <15> really were Mr Nugent, who only gave a description of <16> -- well I can't remember how many people he said <17> running down Dickson Road away from him and from <18> Duwayne who was actually at the police station making <19> a statement. There was nothing coming from that <20> source at that precise moment in time. <21> Q. What, if any, search had been made -- apart from <22> searching for weapons and knocking on house doors -- <23> down Dickson Road and any adjoining roads to see if <24> there were any suspects about? <25> A. I think the TSG had done that earlier on when. P-2144 JEYNES

46 < 1> they received the call which was about an hour and a < 2> half before I got there. < 3> Q. You would doubtless have acknowledged at the < 4> time that there was at least a possibility, if not a < 5> probability, that these attackers were locals if they < 6> had run away on foot? < 7> A. It was a possibility. It was also a possibility < 8> that they might not have been local, I mean, there < 9> was a cinema just across the road from Well Hall <10> roundabout. There is Eltham High Street, there is <11> pubs down there. They could have had a car parked <12> round there. There could have been a lot of <13> scenarios there, sir. <14> Q. As soon as it became apparent to the police, if <15> I can put it that way, that the suspects had run off <16> down Dickson Road it was obviously imperative that <17> there should be an immediate search of the area? <18> A. There was search of the area sir, yes, for any <19> weapons. <20> Q. I do not say this critically of you because you <21> did not get there until, through no fault of your <22> own, an hour and a half after the incident. <23> Obviously as soon as that information was available <24> to the police at the scene you can confirm, as an <25> experienced officer, that the absolute priority would. P-2145 JEYNES