Society of Former Special Agents of the FBI, Inc. 2007

Transcription

1 Society of Former Special Agents of the FBI, Inc Interview of Doris R. Lockerman Former Bureau Secretary to Melvin Purvis FBI Service, 1932 [?] And her son, C.B. Rogers Interviewed by John C. McAvoy On August 10, 2007 Edited for spelling, repetitions, etc. by Sandra Robinette on November 19, Final corrections made by Sandra Robinette on December 15, 2007 and May 10, John C. Good Morning. My name is John C. McAvoy. I am a retired Special Agent with the FBI. I am participating in the Society of Former Agents of the FBI s Oral History Project. I m hoping that a little bit after 11 o clock today, that I will be interviewing Doris Lockerman, a lady of about 96 years of age and a contemporary of the Dillinger era in Chicago, Illinois. Present during the interview will be her son, C.B. Rogers, a prominent attorney here in Atlanta. Today is August the 10th, The interview is going to take place at Mrs. Lockerman s residence in Atlanta, Georgia. This is the first disk and I m also backing it up with a small tape recording. And the tape recording would be side number A. The next voice that you should hear should be me, as we commence the interview a little bit later on. Right now the time is about ten minutes after 9:00 AM, on August the 10th, And I will end the recording now. C.B. Doris We, the undersigned, convey the rights to the intellectual content of our interview on this date to the Society of Former Special Agents of the FBI. This transfer is in exchange for the Society s efforts to preserve the historical legacy of the FBI and its members. We understand that portions of this interview may be deleted for security purposes and, unless otherwise restricted, we agree that acceptable sections can be published on the worldwide web and the recordings transferred to an established repository for preservation and research. Now do you want her to sign that? Sure. It sounds so perfectly reasonable to me. Alright. If you d sign it there.

2 Page 2 Okay. Let me caution you that when she entered service at the FBI go ahead mother her name was Doris Rogers. I m going to fill that in on the form. Where? I mean, show me that again. Right right there. Alright. But I the day I left the Bureau was the day I married Allen Lockerman, my husband. I met my husband in the Bureau and we resigned the same day and we got married that day (chuckling). What I m saying is that your personnel records will show your name as Rogers. Yes. Not as Lockerman. Yes. It will. Okay. Did you have a middle name or an initial? I don t use it, but I do. It s Doris Ladelle L-a-d-e-l-l-e a very fancy It might have been shown as Hinkley, which was her maiden name. Oh yeah, my maiden name. That s probably it. Doris H. Rogers. Rogers was her first husband s name. Okay. What was your year of birth? Nineteen ten. Nineteen ten. 2

3 Page 3 Nineteen ten. Okay. February 26th, And where were you born? The mailing address was Esmond, South Dakota. Okay. Do you recall approximately when you started your FBI service? I remember precisely, but I remember everything about that, really, but I cannot tell you now the date. You [Rogers] can just you can supply that. I really can t. It was in 1932 or 33. You moved from Birmingham to Chicago. Did you go straight with the Bureau or did you go with the steel and iron company? I was working with the Chicago Tribune. That was afterwards. Afterwards? Yeah. Okay. Well then I went straight with the FBI. Thirty-two or 33. Okay. That fine. Okay. And Dillinger was killed in July of 1934 and did you leave soon after that or do you recall? Wasn t that 1934 or 35? Probably. Nineteen thirty-three I can give you the exact date she left because it s the date of her marriage, which I think was in February of 35. Or I can give you that in a few minutes but I can t at the moment. 3

4 Page 4 My husband, who was an Agent, and I left the same day and got married the same day Allen Lockerman. Okay. And, let me see. What led you to join the FBI? I joined as a sort of a stenographer-secretary to Melvin Purvis. I knew him. He was a man I had met in another area of Birmingham and I, I ended up in Chicago and he did too. He was a Bureau SAC at that time, or he d become so, and he wanted me to, or at least he suggested, that it would be helpful to him if I would come to work there as his we didn t call them secretaries but as his sort of woman-of-all-work. You know. Write this letter, write this take this, do this. And that s what I did. And was that initially in Birmingham or later in Chicago? No, it was initially in Chicago. Okay. So you began in Chicago? No. I began in Birmingham slightly Oh, I see. just slightly. And then went up to Chicago. I had already applied, I guess I had already been accepted as a stenographer or a secretary. So that must have been quite a transition. Did you follow Mr. Purvis up to Chicago? I have relatives in Chicago. I had my closest family lived in Chicago. Uh-huh. My foster sister, who was like a sister, and her husband lived there. And I had a little boy and they had found me an apartment and I was going. And how did you find Chicago? Was this kind of a new experience for you when you got I imagine it was a pretty substantial city? 4

5 Page 5 You mean for a country girl? Yes. (Chuckling) I d always been pseudo-sophisticated anyway. I I wasn t terribly bewildered by it at all. I had visited many times and done a little traveling and was rather, well, not sophisticated, but just I wasn t anymore impressed with Chicago than I had been in Podonk. Did you remember where the office was located by any chance? Could it have been in the Banker s Building? Do you remember any streets that might have been around there at that time? Well, no. I do not now remember. Did you live close to the office or did you have a much of a journey into No. No. I lived on the south side and came to work by train. I see. And were you able to live on the salary that you were paid? Well, I did. You did. Yes. Do you remember what the salary was just by any chance? No. I don t now. Oh. Okay. I did a month ago but I don t now. Do you remember? Or have I ever told you that? No. I didn t keep your pay checks. 5

6 Page 6 Well, that isn t the point. I mean, have I told you in the past? This interview should have been done not that I m remonstrating with us but it should have been done a month or two ago. I have slipped a lot in the last month. That s the truth. You know I remember less all the time. Now, was this office, that you worked at, were there a lot of employees there? A lot of Agents? Oh, there were only five women. We had the Barber sisters. They were Agnes and, I think, Alice, who were the transcribers of endless notes from the Agents. They could take dictation like mad and they did not use any little devices. They, you know, did it in Gregg. And they could still transcribe, I suppose, after they were dead; they were so good at it. And I was relieved from that kind of duty because I was sort of secretary to Melvin Purvis. That is, he would say write a letter to so and so, do this or just tell them no, or something like that. Those two ladies were really good, and I was there. And a woman who was in charge of the two women, who were in charge of the files, and I knew their names very well the day before yesterday but now I do not. He wishes to know the number of Agents that were. I know, I m thinking. It would be a guess. I tell you it would be just a guess. I think there may have been a hundred but maybe I m exaggerating. Sure. And was this an exciting time. I mean, were you caught up in this era of excitement and all that? I had married in South Dakota and had gone south. It was an unhappy situation and I had left to go back to the Middle West, my own area. And I went to Chicago where I had a sister, a foster sister and her husband living and who had found me an apartment. And it was a great relief to me to get out of the south at that moment. C.B. was a two-year-old, just a little boy at that time. And I was there with a little boy and a sister and her husband who lived in the 70-hundred block. I don t know that any of that is in there. But I hope it is. 6

7 Page 7 Was your feeling that were you kind of caught up in the excitement? I imagine this must have been front page headlines in that general gangster era and I imagine being in the office can you tell me it would seem that there would be a lot of activity with the Agents and Purvis was my boss, Melvin Purvis am I right, Melvin Purvis? Yes. Absolutely. He was the boss and he was a character that I think he played the role pretty well. Our office had a long entrance aisle, with chairs all lined up. Every day and every night they were filled with reporters. Every every chair was filled. And they sat there all day and probably all night in the (unintel) because there was so much there was so much gangster activity then. It was the days of Pretty Boy Floyd and John Dillinger and others that they were tracking and I C.B here. It was the 19th floor of the Banker s Building on West Adams Street. Very good. Yes. And so you were saying that the corridors were filled with? They were filled with reporters. Uh-huh. And the reporters were just sitting there from all the offices. And I was sort of the receptionist. This was in case there was an announcement because there was no particular it was not ever nothing was ever released to one paper the Tribune or the Herald, Hearst papers or the Herald Examiner. And then there was another daily I think it was The Daily News. But anyway, nothing was ever released to one special they were released all at the same time, whatever. And Melvin Purvis was somewhat overwhelmed, I think. Not that he didn t do well, but I think he was he was at great odds or great strength to do the right thing, not to choose from the Tribune, which was my choice, and the Herald Examiner, the Scripps I think there were Scripps newspapers over there. There were two of them, anyway. 7

8 Page 8 As I said, if you had come a month ago, I would have been a better interviewee than I am now. I ve lost a lot. Oh, I think you re doing just fine. Now, let me ask you a little bit about what was Mr. Purvis like as a person? And to work with? He was a man in developing. He came from a very good family. He had been in, as I say, very good this, this means something in the south. It doesn t matter in South Dakota where I grew up. We were all the same people. But they had a long history and it was also very it proved to be, in the end, very erratic, because several of them or at least Purvis himself didn t he commit suicide? Yes. Yes. And that suggests a great deal more what shall I say sophistication, than the general people were. In our office, up there, there was Helen Dunkel who was who was in charge of the files and her assistant, whose name I will remember in a minute, but I do not at this moment. Mother, why don t you describe Mr. Purvis physically his appearance Oh, Purvis. his dress and so forth. Purvis had come from the Birmingham Office of the Bureau, which is how I got in. I had applied for a job there and I was living in Birmingham at that time; I was very young, and wanting to go back to the Midwest which is where I had a sister a foster sister, and a husband. And I had said Chicago would be my Office of Preference if there was a switch. And within a day or so the switch opportunity came and Purvis said that he would like to have me there and that I could be the receptionist. Did he confide in you? Huh? Did he confide in you? 8

9 Page 9 Not particularly. Purvis was a furtive person. We were all over he was over his depth in responsibility Right. Sure. To get to the Chicago Office where, as I said, the long hall was filled with reporters all day, every day and all night in case there was some break in the the Bureau was big news in those days. Describe him personally. Purvis? He was small. I mean, not a huge man, a large man and gave himself a few southern gentleman airs. You know, when I was taking, when I was doing his mail of course, I could write it as quick as he could. I knew exactly what he was going to say say no yes. If there was anyone listening he was very careful to say that he was dictating to me, otherwise he d just throw up the letter and say answer it. You know. (chuckling) What sort of car did he drive? He had a Pierce-Arrow. And a chauffeur. What was his chauffeur s name? The chauffeur s real name was Washington but he called him Mr. President. Yes, he did. There had been an Agent in Chicago named Skipper McSwain M-c-S-w-a-i-n, who was a friend of Purvis s. He, Skipper, had left the Bureau and had gone in with a law firm. And he and Melvin lived together when he went up to Chicago. And his chauffeur delivered him to the Banker s Building every day. And one of my great duties it took great responsibility and charm I was asked to go get his sandwich at noon and (chuckling). I hope I m being a little bit sarcastic here. But anyway, he sent down to a sandwich shop on the first floor. I think that building was replaced soon by another building of its type, for his sandwich, and he laughingly would say, Isn t this an elegant lunch for he had been [stereo]typed as a southern aristocrat for a southern aristocrat to be eating having a sandwich and throwing it in his face. 9

10 Page 10 Was, as you recall the office, was he close to the Agents? Did he communicate with them a lot? He, he I thought he had very shaky public relations. No. He tried. He wanted to be, but he was really never at home with them. As I said, he had a friend named Skipper McSwain who had been with the Bureau and had gone with another law firm. Skipper had great rapport with everybody; but Purvis was a little more uptight in his relationships. He wanted to be one of the boys or one of the regulars but it wasn t easy for him to do. Did you ever meet J. Edgar Hoover? Did he ever come down? I saw him once or twice when he came. He didn t, I m not sure that I can say this, because his Agent, his second in charge, generally, they made office inspections. I remember that he, not Hoover, but his officer, when he came to inspect our office opened the drawer I sat at the front desk opened the drawer, moved everything, and took a white handkerchief and wiped. Then said, a little dust. I see. Do you remember that person s name? Could it have been Clyde Tolson? I knew Tolson too. Uh-huh. It was an older man. But I knew Tolson too. I will think of it maybe. Yesterday I thought of it, and then I may again today, but today has been a very sort of jumpy day for me. Perhaps, later in the process, he will send you a list of questions for you to think [about] and then you can fill in some blanks. Yes. That would be good. Now, did Mr. Purvis ever discuss his relationship with Washington or Mr. Hoover, or No. He was, everybody, was afraid of J. Edgar Hoover. If they were in the Bureau they had as little contact directly with him as possible, lest they make a mistake. And no, he was not a familiar around the office. And when he came to visit, he was very stiff. 10

11 Page 11 He came, [or] I m not sure if it was he or his aide. his second (unintel) an older man as I told you, took a white handkerchief in the drawer and wiped the bottom of the drawer. This is meticulosity to the degree of absurdity (Laughing) it seems to me. But anyway, we we were very much on edge when anybody directly from the Bureau from the Director when he sent anybody. He sent an older man very often. And he was much more easy, but we also knew that he was representing the boss and that we would have to be very careful. Am I saying the wrong things here kid? No. No. No. Whatever your recollections are is exactly what we would like to hear. And did do you recall any of the other Agents that might have been employed there? Oh. I knew every one of them, obviously. And what did you think of them as a group? Were they what were your impressions of them? Well, of course, I thought that (unintel) they varied. My impression was that I liked them all. This is not public relations I really did. We had one old man named Mr. Jenkins who had been around a long time and was, of course, just sitting out (unintel) for retirement and he, you know, he was he was fun and, and the other Agents were everything from brand new meticulous, you know, Yes, sir, boss to old guys who were just hoping they weren t fired before they could get their retirement. Uh-huh. There was one named Ralph somebody. Who? Ralph. 11

12 Page 12 Ra Ralph R-a-l-p-h? Uhm-hmm. I don t remember that. Okay. And what was the office like? Was it filled with cigar smoke and cigarette smoke and I don t believe that it had any of that. Really! Well, that s your recollection. Sure. I did not yeah, I don t think so. I don t think anybody smoked in the office. But we had I ll tell you that some of the characters we had. We had a young office boy a young office man, named Johnny Madala and Johnny M-a-d-a-l-a, I think Johnny this was his great opportunity. He was and he was darling guy he wanted very much to become an Agent and and did. He and we had a woman named Helen Dunkel who was in charge of the files, and she was meticulous You mentioned her. What? You already mentioned this woman. I know but I was going to say she was a real harpy about the files. You didn t you didn t take her files and fool with them. You asked for exactly what you wanted and she stood there and found the thing that you could look at. She did not trust the files to just anybody. Focusing now around the time of the confrontation and death of John Dillinger, July 22nd of Was what are your recollections of that time period right around that date? Was there a lot of excitement and anticipation of Oh, absolutely! 12

13 Page 13 Everyone felt it. Okay. He was, of course, public enemy number one, and was killed am I right about this was killed as he left his apartment No. As he left the Biograph Theater. No. The Biograph Theater, well we remember that too. But He was killed as he came out of the Yes. lobby area That that s right. He was. of the Biograph Theater. He was. But (unintel) yes, he was there. But he had he was not killed in this earlier event. He was it s nice of C.B. to help me because his memory is a generation younger than mine. But Do you remember where you were at the time (unintel) remember has the name Verne Miller mean anything to you? No. V-e-r-n-e Miller. Verne Miller was from my area of South Dakota. He he was a of a good family and they got hungrier and hungrier and Verne was sheriff and he then became he became a bank robber himself. He was sheriff and he became a bank robber, and he later came to a bad end on the you know, somebody shot him (unintel) in his car. Tell him how they happened to identify him. That s the interesting part. What? 13

14 Page 14 Tell the gentleman how the FBI could identify Verne Miller the former sheriff. Well, he asked they they asked me to do it. That s right. And I he was quote holed up I m using the phraseology of that time in criminology thought to be and nobody could identify him and they stationed me on a very high stool where I could look out of of the garbage (unintel) the garbage place and watch to see who would this man or whether this man came, or when he came out whether he was the man we were looking for. And when he came out, he I sat I sat on a high stool office stool and looking through this grill where he couldn t see me but I could see the door for hours, it seemed to me. And whatever I told you at that time C.B. help because I, myself, I m not as as good a witness as I would have been if you had come when I was 22. It was just that mother had known him when he was just the sheriff. And so she, unusually, could recognize him and did so and pointed him out to the Bureau. And did they then arrest him? He got away. But he didn t get away far. They I did say, That s Verne Miller. I really kind of hated to do this because he had been a respected citizen in my little town and been sheriff but he had turned out (unintel) and killed a few people and so but anyway, I did. I said that that that is he and I probably said that s him, you know. (chuckling) Yeah. And they got the message the Aides at the Bureau got the message and they all took out in pursuit. And, as I remember, he was killed he was shot what, a few miles from I don t recall. I don t remember that. I remember the story that you recognized him you recognizing him. Uhm-hmm. 14

15 Page 15 Okay. And now maybe focusing a little bit back on that fateful day in July of 1934, when Dillinger was shot how did you learn that Dillinger had been shot? What was Mr. Lockerman involved in that? Uhm. Uhm. The answer is yes. He was one of Yes. But I was (unintel) when you asked how did I learn? It such information in an office where I was a a chief flunky. It was all over the office. Well, the the shooting was at night. So you would not have been at work at the time of the No. But the information came. We worked at all hours, by the way. We were there I they tried very hard to keep office hours but they didn t always do it. I see. Now, were you in the in the office when you heard of Dillinger s death? Or were you at home? Or do you remember that occasion? I believe I believe I was at at home when I heard of it. And did you hear was it on the radio or did you see it in the newspaper? Oh. Well, it was all over it was all over the radio, all over. I mean it was blaringly all over. And so was Mr. Lockerman, at that time, were you concerned about him? Was he supposed to be at that location when Dillinger was shot, or At the location I really don t know now. He was one of the Agents in the in the corridor lobby of the theater waiting for Dillinger and the woman who was with him to come out. The woman in red. 15

16 Page 16 Uh-huh. Purvis was the only one that could recognize Dillinger and so he had to signal to the Agents that this was Dillinger. Uh-huh. I see. Now, Whatever C.B. says is probably more accurate than mine because he was a part of our life. The Bureau the Agents were in and out of my apartment all the time practically and they (unintel). And (unintel) C.B. (unintel) (Laughing) pretty well, too, at that time. And did you when you heard of that, did you go into the office or did they call you in? Or, No. I I don t I remember that we all went in (unintel) as quickly as we could get there. And do you have any other recollections about being in the office after the Dillinger death or anything like that? Yeah. You know don t leave, but as soon as you re gone I ll probably remember all kinds of things. But, in the meantime, C.B. s got a pretty good book here that maybe he can help and he s probably heard this story from me when it was fresher. I think is your question whether she remembers receiving news of some great coup and how it was reacted to in the office? Is that your question? (unintel) My question is just simply what was it like? What were your recollections of what you saw there? Of what? 16

17 Page 17 Well, I m assuming that if Dillinger was killed and everybody raced into the office I imagine it would be quite a hub-bub. That maybe Mr. Purvis might have said, you know, I ve gotta get, you know, dictate some documents here. I need a memo for Headquarters I m sure he said all of those things but I I do not now recall precisely Sure. He he dictated long reports to the Barber sisters, Agnes and Alice I told you the girls and their impeccable ability to remember their notes. He dictated practically nothing to me. I was I mean he would say, Write a letter tell em no or tell em yes or whatever, and he would sign anything that I wrote but it was just a form Mr. Purvis regrets you know. Are you aware that a number of these memos are available on the internet. For instance, some of the memos that Mr. Lockerman wrote after completing an assignment Uh-huh. they re available on the internet. No. I haven t researched that. I m just trying to capture what ever It s what? Where are they? On the internet, mother. Oh. I see. Yeah. And just I m just trying to figure out what your first-hand experience was and what you thought (unintel). Right. Of course. Sure. Now, you left in 1935 you left the FBI. Yes. 17

18 Page 18 And, did I understand you got married the same day? Yes, we did. We had lunch at one of the there were two restaurants with the same name Ambassador East and Ambassador West, or something. And my relatives had arranged a situation and then we got married right away. And you both resigned from the Bureau at that time. We did. We resigned the same time. Why was that that you left? Well, it was really time to go, in the first place. My husband, the man I married, had a very good offer from another agency; not nearly as exciting, but very stable, in Mississippi. Where was it? Not Biloxi, but Jackson. What? Jackson. Jackson, Mississippi. And he was he had been invited to come with them and to take that very much less dangerous office from another agency of the government and we went together. We went by train, as I remember. And C.B. was just a little boy at that time. He was about three years old or something when we got that. Do you remember any of that? Oh sure. When did you go to work for the Tribune? Can you tell me that? I don t know. But you were still working for the Tribune when we left to come to Georgia. Yes. I was. And that was in 1940? Uh-huh. 18

19 Page 19 That was the beginning of Are you is it the Tribune you re interested in? No. It s the FBI that he s interested in. Right. That... that s the main focus Well, I know that. But I was wondering if they might not have I ought to have some pretty good files on that. I don t mean I there ought to be some files. No, Mother. Sit down. What? A file on what? On my days with the with the FBI and or then later with the Chicago Tribune. Well, he s not the Tribune is merely to set a date for some of these things. I see. And then did you stay in touch with Mr. Purvis after you left the FBI? Well Mr. Purvis was a man with a very peculiar mission. He had been scheduled almost, I think, unwittingly, to marry a beautiful girl. And Janice something a pretty girl we only saw her a little bit and he broke off that marriage and he he decided that he it was a very difficult time for her and for him. But she was a pretty girl who (unintel) was really just an opportunist to marry this who was the he was the best known man in America at that time really. And but he did not show at the wedding or didn t go through. I think he called and said that he was sorry, he would not attend his wedding. Every kid in America had something saying, Melvin Purvis, Junior G-Man. And Purvis got enormous attention among children with the Junior G-Man. 19

20 Page 20 Yes. He did. Much more so than Mr. Hoover did. Oh, we always Purvis had a very peculiar charisma. He was young I started to say whimsical, but not really, just he had (unintel) was bewildered. He really didn t know what he was supposed to do next. And he knew he was being judged by the New York I mean the (unintel) he knew that the FBI was very jealous of him. He was in a he was in a very bad spot. And you know that later he probably needed (unintel) shoot himself first. I see. Do you remember that? Nineteen Sixty, yes. But we were long out of touch with Mr. Purvis Oh, why sure. Oh, absolutely. And this just tells you that he was he was very upset and really never recovered his equilibrium again I don t think. To answer your original question Mr. Purvis did visit us in our home. He let me sit in his lap and he had a Oh yeah. he had a watch in a gold French coin and by pressing the little thing on the side it would open up and he let me open his watch and close it and open it again, and so on. Umm-hmm. That s my recollection of him. Uhm-hmm. Yeah. Very good. And is there anything else you d like to add to this? Probably after you re gone, I ll probably think of some exquisite detail. 20

21 Page 21 Well, that s fine. I mean, you know, we can always meet again or we can write some notes on (unintel) I don t know if I told you or not well, I I m sure that you re empathetic to the fact that I am very old and very deaf and it s just hell. Okay. Okay. I think I think we ve been here approximately an hour and thanks very much and we re going to deactivate the recording equipment. The time now is about 11:54. It s August the 10th, 2007 and we re concluding the interview. 21