Interview of Former Special Agent of the FBI Bradley J. Garrett ( ) Interviewed by Susan Wynkoop On November 19, 2009

Transcription

1 Society of Former Special Agents of the FBI, Inc Interview of Former Special Agent of the FBI Bradley J. Garrett ( ) Interviewed by Susan Wynkoop On Edited for spelling, repetitions, etc. by Sandra Robinette on December 21, Final edit with Mr. Garrett s corrections made on April 5, 2010 by Sandra Robinette. Susan Hi. This is Susan Wynkoop, and it s. I m speaking today with Brad Garrett, telephonically. He is in Washington, DC, and was a Special Agent with the FBI from 1985 until I want to read into the tape the Copyright Release, which states: We, the undersigned, convey the rights to the intellectual content of our interview, on this date, November the 19th, 2009, to the Society of Former Special Agents of the FBI. This transfer is in exchange for the Society s efforts to preserve the historical legacy of the FBI and its members. We understand that portions of this interview may be deleted for security purposes. Unless otherwise restricted, we agree that acceptable sections can be published on the Worldwide Web and the recordings transferred to an established repository for preservation and research. Thank you again so much for your time this afternoon, Brad. Bradley J. Sure, no problem. Okay. As I stated, you were an Agent with the FBI from 1985 until 2006, and if you wouldn t mind, I know your undergraduate degree was in Criminology. How is it that you became, when criminology wasn t so in fashion, how did you become interested in this and at the undergraduate level? I think it s always been something that I was attracted to as far as two things; one, I guess, was sort of the intense drama that kids get from watching television. But the other is that all these things are a puzzle. And trying to figure them out, particularly with the challenges of working in bureaucracies to figure them out, really it drew me to it. And I guess it must have really drawn me to it since I have a Masters and a PhD in the same thing. Exactly.

2 Page 2 So I think that was, I think that s what it was. It was, as a young kid, it s sort of that, date myself here, sort of that Adam-12 police intrigue thing that a lot of kids get attracted to. But then as I got older it wasn t so much that part of it, it was really more the behavioral side, you know, why do people do what they do? What is in their backgrounds and their personalities and their issues with substance abuse, sexual addiction. Whatever their problems are. How did they get there? And then how does it play into A) why they have done what they have done. Allegedly. And with B), more importantly, is there anything that could ever really be done about certain aspects. Which the answer is some yes and some no. That second portion is very important. That second part. So I guess, after college, you weren t ready, though, to go into the actual working Well, after college I didn t have any choice because of the Vietnam War. I was originally going to go to Los Angeles and be a police officer. And, up until 1970, law enforcement was a deferment from the military. But Nixon cancelled that deferment among some other ones, so it made me eligible for the draft. In fact, my senior year in college I was sixteen in the lottery. Wow. Which in two weeks I got an induction notice. So I tried to control my own fate to a certain extent and, and visited virtually every branch of the service. And the only one, to make a long story short, that really had any availability for OCS was the Marine Corps. The Navy had, my eyes were good enough to be a navigator but it was a six-year commitment and that s a long time if you don t really know what you re getting into. Yes, it is. Okay. 2

3 Page 3 And the other branches just weren t available because Vietnam, in 1970, was not stopping, of course, but it was winding down and the military is just like the FBI or any other bureaucracy, it s controlled by money and whatever the issues are at the time. And so there were too many officers in the other branches, and so they just weren t even letting people take the test. But the Marine Corps was. I understand. Okay. So I took the test, got in, and I went from there. I didn t realize that law enforcement had been a deferment. Of course, why would I know all of these things? But I didn t realize that. Right. If you think about it on several levels, it makes sense. Because you need law enforcement in every community that, for a lack of better terms, is sort of the civilian version of the military, keeping peace. In the U. S. Okay. I know you spent a number of years as a probation/parole officer. And, again, I guess, during this time, that s when you were getting advanced degrees. Right. I had finished the undergraduate, went into the Marine Corps; came out of the Marine Corps in 74; went full-time to graduate school in criminology at Indiana State University at Terre Haute, Indiana. And just before I finished that degree, got on with the Federal Probation Service. Then for ten years was a Federal Probation and Parole Officer in the Southern District of Indiana. The country s divided up into judicial districts. And I originally started in Indianapolis, but after a few months they opened a one-man office in New Albany, Indiana, which is literally across the river from Louisville. And I was there from 75 to 85. And it s during that time period I picked up the PhD at the University of Louisville. And all during this time, are you thinking of the FBI? Or how did this start? 3

4 Page 4 Yeah. I mean, originally I really hadn t thought a whole lot about probation and parole. That really wasn t what I wanted to do. But unfortunately when I came out of the Marine Corps, Federal law enforcement just really wasn t hiring. So I thought well, this would at least, it gets me into the Federal law enforcement system. Because they are under the same retirement wing that Secret Service, FBI, Marshals, etc., etc. are under. So I thought I d start this. I kind of knew I wanted to go on in school but wasn t really sure at that point. So I started it. And in fairly short order knew that it isn t something I wanted to do long-term. And I probably wouldn t even end up doing it as long as I did it but I got involved in that PhD program about three years into the job. You really wanted to keep on with, and get that. Well, I, you know, those are the kind of things that are, most people who stop them, don t go back to them. Right. Because they re just such a, to be blunt, a pain. Yes. So I continued to plod away. But as I got closer to being done, I then put more effort into seeing if I could get in the Bureau. And that eventually worked in 84, and then they sent me to New Agents Training in 85. Great. Okay. Well, I don t that many, well, I know, let s see, one, two I know of two PhDs that were former Agents. So you re the third that I know of. Well, there are a few. I mean, there s actually, I think a guy who s a dentist. There may even be a doctor. I have no idea. Right. Right. I mean an MD doctor. Yes. So right after training, well, of course, with your advanced degrees, were you finding out about what, I guess, might have been termed then the Profiling Unit? Or how did your attentions become dedicated into that area? 4

5 Page 5 Well, I think because my whole attraction to law enforcement was really violent crime. Whether it is of a sexual nature or homicide-murder type stuff. And, I also knew that that isn t obviously what the FBI does dayto-day. That s what local, primarily local, city, and county police do. And that was really my motivation in going to Los Angeles, was to eventually end up on a homicide squad. But once I decided to come in the Bureau, I tried to figure out some way to sort of create my own reality, the best I could. I did talk, in 85 the Behavioral Science Unit at Quantico had been around for a little while, but it was still, it had not grown into what it is today. Exactly. And, I remember, who was the Unit Chief? Roger Depue was the Unit Chief then. He s been retired a long time and runs an investigative firm that s made up of almost all retired FBI profilers. Uh-huh. And I remember talking to him and he said, You ve got the right background but you really need to be an Agent for x-number of years. Which I agreed with. And so, I went to Nashville. When I got to Nashville, the relationship between the police and the FBI was not very good. And my boss said that would I be willing to see if I could make that relationship better. And so I went over to the Robbery Squad, I remember this so clearly, one day. And they didn t even want to talk to me. That s how much they disliked the FBI. Wow. I mean, there were other places that s an issue. And it doesn t really matter who you work for; it really matters who you are. And what you re willing to do and who you re willing to work with. 5

6 Page 6 Agents sometimes may not like each other. You can, at the common man s level, at the working-man s level, you can get the job done. Because people don t really care that much about once they realize you re on board, willing to work and willing to work with them, they don t really care who you work for. You re so right. But you ve gotta, you gotta put energy into working with the police. An effort. but a lot of energy to overcome what their perception or bad experience was with the FBI or whoever it might be. Yes. So what happened is, I went over there and I remember the lieutenant basically didn t want to talk to me. And I said, Look, I understand that there are some issues here. And then I had to listen to three hours of how the Bureau would come to them for information, never give any information back to them. You know, that same old, I guess, historically there was a lot of that going on in the Bureau back several years ago. But anyway, so I said, Well, let s try this. Why don t you let me work with you for awhile and you decide whether you ll be willing to work with me. So they started testing me, like paging me at midnight to see if I d come out and help them with robberies. And I came! And I came, and I came, and I came. And so every time they wanted something, no matter when it was, I was there for them. And they realized that, you know, I could be a huge asset to them because, obviously, the whole Federal side of stuff you can bring at the table. 6

7 Page 7 And so within a few months we just had this incredibly great relationship. It was so good that when there was a bank robbery and, and I couldn t get there for a few minutes, they d actually hold the bank until I got there. That s great. To interview the victim teller with them. Wow. It was that kind I had their radios in my Bureau car, as well as other Agents. But the point being, it was just this wonderful relationship. And that went on the rest of the entire time I was in Nashville. Which was about how long? Eighty-five to 90. Five years! Wow! Okay. And I think you probably got a good overview of work there. Because Nashville s a good size town. Eighteen, nineteen Agents there. Two supervisors. Yeah. You know, from White Collar Crime to Violent Crime; not so much in the National Security world, but a little bit. A number of people coming to Opryland. Yes. I got so sick of following people around Opryland, though. (Laughing) Opryland is large too. It is large. It s hard to keep track of people there. But Nashville was a wonderful office to start with because it isn t like going to some small, laid back, not much action office. Those places have their own, I guess, pluses. But you don t really get the intensity. I need a lot of intensity. And it gave me that there. 7

8 Page 8 That s great. So then did you go back to Quantico after those five years? No. I never actually went to Quantico. What happened Oh, I m sorry. That s right, you were at WFO. Yes. What I ended up doing is once I got to WFO, I then went through the Profiling Certification Course for Field, they called them Field Coordinators. These are the people who actually work with the police departments; assess whether the Behavioral Science Unit, the Profiling Unit, could be helpful to them or not. And then you re sort of the person who puts it together for Quantico. Then you go with the police to Quantico if in fact there s going to be like a consultation. The active Field Coordinators are the frontline of the Profiling Unit. Okay. So I chose not to leave that and go to Quantico during my time in the Bureau. But, shortly after that, I got certified as a Hostage Negotiator. And I started doing that. And then ended up being the primary coordinator for WFO. Both the primary Profiling Coordinator and the primary Hostage Negotiation Coordinator. And you were there for the rest of your career. I was. So that was 1990 til Till I ran out of age. Right. Okay. During that time, I m just sure you saw so much and also helped, well, I guess you didn t help out, or you might have, with things going on throughout the United States. Were you mostly just involved in WFO s cases? Well, primarily. But, as you well know, you get involved in other people s cases. If leads for other offices come to you, or if you happen to be, in my case, working overseas in a location where there s an interest in some other case, and you re maybe, the only person there, as far as the Bureau s concerned, then you ll end up I mean, that s how I ended up involved with Ramzi Yousef. I mean, that s not my case, obviously. That was New York s case. 8

9 Page 9 But when he was finally located, I happened to be on a plane headed that way. And there were virtually no FBI Agents, other than the Legat, who was stationed in Bangkok, that were available to deal with him. So that s how I ended up interviewing him. Being involved. Okay. So there are those circumstance that get you involved in other people s cases in a, sort of, primary fashion, temporarily. I understand. Okay. And, again, as we talked before we began the taping, I m going to just talk about several cases that, the Ramzi Yousef case, and many other terrorist cases that you were involved in. At some point in the future, I may want to try to find you again and talk with you about those. Okay. But I know in, one case, in reading your other interview, has haunted you; the disappearance of the missing intern, Chandra Levy, which occurred in Right. So can you comment on that case? Tell me about your involvement. You know, what you saw occurring in this investigation. Well, of course, that case was initially opened as a possible kidnapping, abduction. Because once somebody is gone for a period of time, [and] there doesn t appear to be any logical reason why they have disappeared, then the presumption is some form of foul play. So the Bureau opened a kidnapping case, but then it sort of didn t go anywhere as far as either a kidnapping case or locating Chandra Levy. So the two Agents that had it initially worked reactive crime. They didn t work these long-term investigations, like this case obviously turned into. So it was handed off to me and another Agent to investigate. And so, oh, I guess it was a couple months into the case, so by the middle of the summer of 01 we were the Bureau people running the case, obviously, concurrently with the police and the U.S. Attorney s Office. Uh-huh. 9

10 Page 10 And so, you know, from June-July 01 until I retired in August of 06, it was a case on my plate. At times, got all my attention; other times, got some of my attention. Did you have, because you d already been in Washington, in that area for awhile, did you have a good working relationship with the Metropolitan Police? Yeah, I mean it s one of those things that, high-profile cases by their very nature, are difficult because of agency rivalry. So that s always an issue. And bigger police departments are, they re more challenging than small police departments from the standpoint of just having a lot more people to work with, which means you have a lot more people to sort of develop credibility with. And so these two detectives that had Chandra Levy, I think I knew both of them but never had worked with them, and so we worked through that. It wasn t a major issue. Then just jointly investigated the case from that point forward. Would you describe it as one of your more, I guess, frustrating cases? Or how it just must have been so Well, a lot of cases are frustrating if you really don t feel like you re making any progress. Or, or even seriously developing any good suspects. And if you look at the gentleman who s been charged, Ingmar Guandique. I mean, Mr. Guandique came up early on in the case because he got caught attacking women in the park. It was a short time after she disappeared. And, so he was always somebody that we had an interest in obviously. But once you get beyond him, we just were not coming up with any viable suspects. Because it s, it s a case that sort of goes a couple of obvious directions. One is that she was in the wrong place at the wrong time, which can happen to any of us. 10

11 Page 11 One version is she got attacked by a stranger. And that attack resulted in her death. Or some version in-between where she either got picked up by somebody she knew, taken to the park; that went sideways and then she ended up getting killed. Or, she met somebody at the park. I mean, it has to be one of the three. I suppose you could argue, but I don t think effectively, that she got picked up by somebody she knew, or maybe didn t know, got just incapacitated or killed and then was dumped in the park. That doesn t make sense on a lot of levels once you know where she was in the park. Because it just would be too difficult to carry her to that spot. Where she was found. Okay. Or even drag her to that spot. It would be too far from any road. You have to go down a narrow trail then you have to go down a very steep hill to where her body was found. Now, logically, she may have gotten to that place on the hill because she fell down the hill. That s entirely possible. But you still have to get her to that point on the trail before she goes down the hill. Right. We looked at this case from every angle. One of the logical things you do is look for cases recently that might be similar. Women attacked in the park, killed. That sort of thing. Found a few; didn t find anything that really fit, nor the ones that had suspects we could put in the Washington area. Looked at all the sex offenders that were on probation or parole in the metropolitan area, and didn t see anything that jumped out at us. So it was one of those sorts of a constant review of what you have. Go back and re-interview people that you had already interviewed, which you do in these cold cases, and see if you can generate new leads. Sometimes go and talk to new investigators in the system to get another set of eyes to look at what you re doing and say what am I missing here? Exactly. 11

12 Page 12 That kind of stuff. Which I was never bashful about; nor am I now bashful about doing. I mean, I don t know everything. And when you work on something so long, you can lose your objectivity and I didn t want to do that. And I don t think I did. One of the problems is do you have the time to do it? And that s something that plagued me. I had too many cases that were complicated like that, that really required, really, my daily attention and they didn t get it just because there weren t a lot of people assigned to work that kind of stuff. I can understand. Well, and you get assigned to squads. I was on a Reactive Squad. So if there were three bank robberies that day, what do you think I got done? Zippo on homicides. You know. Because you had to deal with what s in front of you. Exactly. So, I mean, that s just sort of the nature of the beast. And, it was frustrating for me but you go on. And, again, I guess, and that her body had been in that park for so, you know, for over a year A year and three weeks. that it just, so much of the evidence that possibly could have been obtained, was just gone, I guess. Well, certainly, it s a real challenge forensically to get much of anything when somebody s in the elements. Because you have nothing left, basically, but skeletal remains that were somewhat scattered because they were in a wooded area with animals and so forth and so on. So, I mean location helps you because it does give you how did the person get to this location scenario. Obviously we still don t know. But it gives you some direction as to why would you end up on that trail; could you logically end up on that trail unless somebody knew about that trail. Those kinds of things. Which then lets you narrow down you can use locations to narrow down your investigation sometimes. 12

13 Page 13 Or focus it. So we did have that. We had where we believed she started; which was at her apartment. And we had where she was found, which was in Rock Creek Park, not too awfully far from where... the guy she was seeing, the Congressman. He didn t live far from Rock Creek Park. But he lived further south. From where she was found. And Gary Condit did take numerous tests. Did you interview him? Yeah, I interviewed him. In any case of a missing person, the people you look at initially are, obviously, the significant others in someone s life. In this case, was that relationship relevant to her disappearing? I mean, that s where you have to go initially. It s just like when wives are missing. Who do you look at first, the husband or the boyfriend. Because, many times, that s who did something to them. Right. Like a Scott Peterson kind of guy. Right. But none of the signs were really there, at least in my mind. That he was the right guy. But, I meant to say lie detector test. I think he took some. Is that correct? No, he did not take any given by the government. Okay. His defense attorney did give him one, but, to answer your question, the system Okay. 13

14 Page 14 Not the Justice Department, nor the police department, did not give him one. Because he, obviously, would have to voluntarily agree. But, again, a case like that, I m sure you spent just hours and hours and hours and, in the back of your mind, I m sure it s still today, probably. Are you still in touch with some of the detectives who were working with that? No. Okay. The short answer is that once you leave law enforcement, at least it s been my experience, it s kind of like you never existed. I mean, it s sort of unfortunate because you take a lot of history with you, both case-wise and experience-wise. And it just walks out the door with you. You re so right. I mean, collectively, shame on us that that s how we do business. That s my view. And shame on us for not nurturing people who are really good at what they do to keep them in some form or fashion connected to the system. That doesn t really mean you need to hire me back, although that wouldn t have been a bad idea. But have me in regularly; have meetings with me. Invite me in on your case reviews. Those type of things. And we just don t do it. You re so right. I literally didn t debrief one person when I walked out the door, on any case; on any source; on any connection to the police internationally, or otherwise. I just walked out the door. With all of that. And here I am. Three years later. Yes. You know. Life goes on. It s unfortunate. 14

15 Page 15 I m not unique. That s kind of how it is. Clearly something needs to be done about that. And clearly nothing is being done about it. That s sort of the bottom line. Okay, we re back after this pause. And I wanted to get input in now the other investigation that, of many that you were very involved in that were very important, the Metropolitan Sniper Case that occurred in And I know you were very much involved for the FBI, for this whole investigation; what occurred over twenty-three days. You were very much involved in taking confessions, or Lee Boyd Malvo s confession. But tell me about this case. How you initially; what you initially saw; what occurred? Well, the case is clearly unique from the standpoint of someone anonymously shooting people in public. On one day, the shooting of five different people was sort of unheard of. And it was so unsettling because it really did not matter whether you were in law enforcement or not in law enforcement, you were vulnerable. I mean, standing pumping gas at a gas station, whether it be DC, Maryland or Virginia, you don t expect somebody to shoot you. Exactly. You know. It was terrible. Maybe in a robbery, but not from out of the darkness. And, and that s clearly what you had here. So I remember standing at gas stations angling with my Crown Vic to cover myself. Like you re not going to see anybody in the dark; but the point being, we all felt vulnerable too. 15

16 Page 16 And it s a case that obviously ended up involving a lot of jurisdictions. It started in Maryland, went into Virginia, went in briefly to the District; went into several jurisdictions in rural Virginia and Northern Virginia, close to the District. We ended up with a lot of people involved in the case, with the primary Headquarters/Task Force Headquarters in Montgomery County, in Rockville, because that is where the case started and had the most shootings. And so you had the SAC of Baltimore and the Police Chief of Montgomery County. And ATF was jointly in the case with us. And so you had this very large group of people who ended up working in satellite centers like in Fairfax and Prince William County and various counties that had victims. But with so many locations, so difficult to control. Very. And it did suffer from that. Trying to share intelligence in a timely fashion was difficult. There was a lot of duplication where you d go to interview somebody and they would say well, somebody from Maryland came down and interviewed me about that. And those things do happen and I m not really being critical other than they can be frustrating. The whole point of the case was how do we figure out who these guys were, and like any repetitive crime, why this? Like serial rape, serial killing, serial bank robbery; unfortunately the more they do, the more likely they are to get caught. Right. Because you have more information and evidence from case to case. You, hopefully, and it was true in this case, start to develop forensics, DNA, fingerprints, items or documents that you could link to somebody from some other location that are found at a crime scene. So all that stuff started working against these guys, until we eventually were able to identify them. Primarily, there were several ways, but one link was a robbery that occurred oh my, I d have to go back and look at my notes, I think in Alabama, maybe Montgomery. I think you re right. Uh-huh. Where they shot and robbed two women outside a liquor store. 16

17 Page 17 The police gave chase and they found an item. And I want to say like a manual of some sort that Malvo dropped and they were able to match his DNA to that, whatever that was. The manual. And, so that was a tie, a violent crime in some other state. And so we were eventually able to figure out who they were; figure out what their car was. And then their car was spotted at a rest stop in Myersville, Maryland, which is about 60, 70 miles, sort of north, mainly north, a little west of DC. And a guy that was an early morning commuter stopped there to, I assume to go to the bathroom, and he spotted the car and the tag number. And they were both asleep in the car. And so he calls the police. They quietly block the exits to that rest stop; stopped any, obviously, anybody else going in there. And then they, by now choppers were brought in and the Hostage Rescue Team guys. They came in and assaulted the car. They took them out of the car and arrested them. Cause I can t remember. Had, had they, had an APB been put out concerning the plate? I can t really remember. Yes. Okay. And everyone knew. Car description and a New Jersey tag. And that s what he spotted and that s what he called in. And so, they were taken into custody; taken into Montgomery County. And then Attorney General Ashcroft made a decision to have them transferred to Virginia. So when they were transferred to Virginia, it gave us an opportunity to talk with Malvo. Muhammad never has talked and, of course, obviously now, never will. Exactly. Malvo, initially, wouldn t talk but after about two hours I finally got him talking. And he, in a multi-hour interview that went on until about midnight, starting at 4:30 in the afternoon, he started putting himself in shootings; started talking a little bit about how they picked targets; never was really clear, at least in my mind, as to motive. Malvo was under the wing and control of Muhammad. He looked at him as sort of a spiritual father-leader kind of guy. 17

18 Page 18 And was very, at that point, very protective of Muhammad; he wouldn t put the gun in Muhammad s hands. Would put him at the scene, help him pick targets, but he would only put the gun in his own hands as far as shooting people. But he did give us a fair amount of detail about different scenes and different locations that helped corroborate what we thought we already knew. What did he say as to how targets were picked? He used the term that they would come into the zone. And I said, Well, what does that mean? And he said, Well, they, they weren t picked because of who they were or what they looked like, what they were driving, what store they might be at. It was clearly it was location driven for whatever reason. And they would pick a location and then they would watch. They would find someplace they could either shoot out of the trunk, or get out of the car in a dark area and then shoot with a tripod on their weapon. Wow! And shoot from the ground on the tripod. Which is the same thing they were doing in the trunk. The weapon was on a tripod in the trunk I see. with a small hole cut next to the license plate so the barrel of the gun would fit through that. I heard that. Right. So you could literally shoot from the trunk of the car. And so I ll give you the best example. The FBI analyst, Linda Franklin... was murdered, was killed by them at Home Depot, in Fairfax County. I actually went to that scene and I remember, and I interviewed the husband with the police shortly after she was shot. And in this latter conversation with Malvo, he sort of put together what the husband had told me, which is the following: 18

19 Page 19 That the Franklins had a small Mercury Capri, which is a two-door, small car. They had bought a piece of wood, for whatever reason, at Home Depot, that was too long. And so they were going to have to angle it through the trunk up through the passenger door and out the window a little bit to be able to get it home. The husband was at the back of the car. Malvo said that he had sighted in on him to shoot him. Because this is an area that if you re, at least back then, if you were on the opposite side of Route 50, it was a dark parking lot the parking lot didn t have any lights in it. But you literally could shoot over the top of a four-lane road because it was elevated into a parking, an open parking garage that was lighted. So it was almost, it could be a shooting gallery. You re in the dark, they re in the light. You could virtually watch people moving around. Well, they sighted in on the husband. And the husband yelled let me come to the back of the car and you try to pull it through or some version thereof. They switched places. They switched places and once she stays, sort of stagnant or in one spot for like five seconds, they shoot her. So it just happened to be she was at the back of the car and the target they picked. It s just that and I think that part of all of this is true. I don t think it s driven by gender, ethnicity, religion; it was strictly they just picked targets at whatever location. And I think a lot of their locations were picked because it s time to shoot somebody. I m shocked. They picked a mall; a Standard or Exxon gas station. Whatever it is, they would do a quick surveillance, figure out where they could safely either do their trunk thing or do their tripod thing on the ground, and they d go do it. And then they d leave. Amazing! Cause I just, I know the whole country, really, was sort of paralyzed. I mean, I think everyone, I m in Connecticut and I thought oh, they re going to go to New Jersey next. Right. 19

20 Page 20 And they re going to come to. You know. Everybody was afraid they re going to come to our town next. It was amazing. Right. Oh sure. Or somebody was going to copycat them. Exactly. You know. That s the other concern in this case. Yes. Yes. But that must have been, getting that solved and getting those people off the street must have been very satisfying. Well, yeah. I mean, it s clearly something you want to stop and, you know, we wanted to stop it before we did. But it just took time to figure out who they were. And then we got lucky in catching them. You know, my biggest concern is that we would get, not quite figure out who they were and then they would move on to another city. What if they just drove down the road to Norfolk; or further down to Charleston. Right. Wherever. And killed half a dozen people in two days and then moved on. I mean, they could have potentially wreaked havoc for a long time they d eventually got caught or killed, but they could have wreaked havoc. You know. They made a big mistake staying around here. You are so right. And then trying to communicate with us was just, that was another one of their downfalls. Exactly. And then demanding money and all this silly stuff that if they would have stuck with what they were doing, they could have and thank God they didn t. But they could have killed many more people. You re right. Yes. Cause they re attempts at getting up with the media; things of that sort of thing which is their downfall. Do you have any other Sniper questions? No. 20

21 Page 21 Okay. Let s stop there. Okay. That s great. And I know you re busy and I ll turn the tape off now. Okay. And I ll just say a few words. Okay. Thank you. 21