21. Public demonstration is a fundamental democratic right. though in times of political tension it may have the potential

Transcription

1 K5.10 COM.BOIPATONG 73 STATEMENT Mass action 21. Public demonstration is a fundamental democratic right though in times of political tension it may have the potential for violence. For that reason, some months ago the Commission set up an international panel of experts to assist it in making recommendations to the State President on the rules and procedures which should apply to public demonstrations, marches and picketing. on Thursda That panel will report in public in Cape Town It is the hope of the Commission that at the end of the public debate which will follow the Report, an accord (10! will be reached on such rules and procedures. 22. In the view of the Commission the right to public demonstration is especially important at a time when the disenfranchised majority of South Africans have no alternative peaceful means of political action. But at the same time this right should not be exercised in such a way that it is calculated to lead to v i o l e n c e. Appeal to leaders 23. The Commission appeals to all of our country's leaders to spare no effort in re-establishing appropriate ways to continue (20) the search for a peaceful transition to a democratic form of government. Without it the efforts o'" people of peace will come to nought and the activities of the instruments of the Peace Accord will become irrelevant. Anticipation of findings of the Commission 24. The Commission has previously welcomed vigorous public debate on matters referred to it for enquiry and on its reports. However, it views with concern recent press comment which anticipates findings which have to be made by the Commission. In particular there has been comment on the (30)

2 K5.10 COM.BOIPATONG 7 4 STATEMENT credibility of witnesses who have testified before the Commission and findings have been stated in matters which have yet to be decided by the Commission. This practise is regrettable and it is hoped that it will not be repeated. As I have mentioned a limited number of copies are available and that brings to an end this sitting of the C o m m i s s i o n. THE COMMISSION ADJOURNS UNTIL (10

3 V

4 /, / C RDOS morning? As you said you asked from Diepkloof and Johannesburg? Mr Chairman I cannot remember now how many, the numbers which came. Now what was the position? What made you now to ask for more reinforcements? -- At that stage I felt that in case the problems should escalate, then there would have been enough people to cope with the situation. Was Boipatong u bewus daarvan dat die gevoel onder die inwoners van meer antagonisties geraak het, namate die oggend begin aanbreek het? -- Teenoor..? (10] Teenoor die polisie? -- Ja dit is korrek. The mood of the crowd changed towards the morning towards the police in Boipatong, is that correct? -- Yes, correct. Did you speak to anybody to find out what was going on in Boipatong? -- At that time so many informations were coming in and my task was over and the other shift then took over. The investigation officers. Then the investigation officers took over. Het u enige terugvoering ontvang vanaf sersant Schlebush of sersant Kruger die oggend toe hulle 07:30 van diens afgekom(20] het? Het u by hulle vasgestel wat die posisie is? -- I spoke to Sergeant Schlebush and Kruger in the morning. Were you surprised to hear that only two bodies were "ound? -- I was. Is that the only information which was given through to you? -- Kan u net daardie vraag herhaal seneer? Were you surprised that the information given to you was that only two dead bodies were found? -- That is correct Mr Chairman. This evening of the 17th, new many Caspirs were put to (301 your/...

5 C RODS your disposal? CHAIRMAN: And Nyala's. -- I cannot remember now the exact number but I can go and pull out a document. HR DU TQIT: Sergeant Kruger says that there were about two Nyaia's and there were about 10 to 15 Caspirs, woulc that be correct? Hr Chairman as I say, I must go and get documentation. I cannot say exactly how many were there. Nou net 'n laaste aspek, is dit u taak spesifiek om ook byvoorbeeld 'n geval soos Boipatong dat u dit persoonlik moet besoek diokamer of is u die persoon wat basies beheer uitoefen by the ra-(10 en die opdragte deurstuur? Wat word van u verwag as be- velvoerder? -- Hr Chairman when there is an information available to me that there is such a large incident, then I go personally to the scene. It had happened before in the past that there were two people who died, more than two people who died and I went there personally. Dankie mnr. die Voorsitter. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY HR HATTINGH: Captain you are no longer in the same unit. Is the unit the same as before when you were there? -- No Hr Chairman. (20 Can you just describe now the changes which,have been brought about? -- Hr Chairman manpower has been sent and the rank structure has been lifted and there are more vehicles. Toe u nog daar was, hoe het die eenh id bekend gestaan? Eenheid nommer hoeveel? -- When I was still there, this was known as unit 5. En Krugersdorp dit was 'n onder-afdeling van eenheid 5 wat eintlik in gestasioneer is? -- It was actually the unit 5 which was under Krugersdorp. Waarvan kolonel Schutte die oorhoofse bevelvoerder was? (30 Where/...

6 C ROOS -- Where Colonel Schutte was the overhead commandant. Wat is die huidige nommer van die eenheid? -- The present number of the unit is number 23. So hy is nou 'n onafhanklike eenheid en u se daar is 'n opgradering g.wees van die bevelstruktuur? -- It is now independent as you are saying there is an upliftment. Wie is tans in bevel van die eenheid? -- At present there is Major Vorster who is in charge. Weet u of dit beoog word om die rangstruktuur nog verder te verhoog? -- This, the rank structure has been uplifted to the(10 rank of, colonel rank. U se daar was 'n uitbreiding in mannekrag. Kan u net so by benadering vir ons se hoeveel lede is daar toegevoeg aan die eenheid? Mr Chairman there is about 170 manpower as well as officers. En by benadering weereens die aantal voertuie wat toegevoeg is aan die eenheid? -- Mr Chairman there is about 30 to 40 vehicles which have been brought in. Bykomstig? -- Oh additional, in addition. Dankie mnr. die Voorsitter. (20 CHAIRMAN: Mr Pretorius? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRETQRIUS: No questions. CHAIRMAN: Mr Visser? CROSS-EX.HIMTIQN BY MR VISSER: Kaptein hoe lank het u diens gedoen waarin die gebied van Boipatong en KwaMadala nou deel gevorm het, in daardie gebied? Hoe lank het u daarmee te doen gehad, met daardie gebied? -- I was serving this area of KwaMadala and Boipatong for about ten months. Is dit, wat dit as bevelvoerder gewees van eenheid 5? -- It was, it was a commander. (30 En/...

7 C RODS En as 'n bevelvoerder kom u te hore van yoorvalle wat plaasvind? Koia dit tot u ore of wat is die posisie? -- As commandant incidents do come to my ears. Kan u dan net vir die komitee se in die tien maande of 'n tydvak voor 17 Junie was daar voorvalle van geweld in daardie gebied, Boipatong, KwaMadala? -- During the ten months I was serving this Boipatong and KwaMadala there were incidents. Laat ek nou sommer vir u reguit vra, was daar aanvalle van Boipatong af op KwaMadala wat u van kan onthou? -- During that time there were no attacks which I knew of from Boipatong(10' on KwaMadala. Now concerning the pa-rolling of the area of Boipatong, would you say, will you say that it was safe for the police to get into Boipatong? -- It was not easy to get in there except with armoured vehicles. Was daar aanvalle op die polisie gewees? There were attacks on the police. Ken u 'n persoon met die naam van Nathaniel Rantsieng, R.a.n.t.s.i.e.n.g.? -- No I cannot remember this name Rantsieng. Geen verdere vrae nie dankie mnr. die Voorsitter. (20! CHAIRMAN: Mr Chaskalson? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CHASKALSON: Kaptein Roos, ek is van plan om my vrae in Engels te stel. U kan Afrikaans praat as u wil vrae maar sa.1 u my vrae verstaan of is dit nodig dat die tolk die aan u oortolk? -- Ek gaan my getuienis in Afrikaans aanbied asseblief. Maar u sal my vrae verstaan en as daar enige moeilikheid is, dan sal u onmiddellik se wat u moeilikheid kry? -- Ek sal dit doen. CHAIRMAN: Ja of die tolk kan dit in Afrikaans oortolk. (30^ HR/...

8 C RODS HR CHASKALSON: Now captain I understand that you joined the internal stability unit in 1986? -- That is correct. And that was the time of the state of emergency? -- That is correct yes. It was the time cf the total onslaught? (The time..)? Of the total onslaught? Die totale aanslag. -- It is in 1986 that I joined. Haar dit was die tyd van die totale aanslag? CHAIRMAN: I am not sure it is clear what that means. HE CHASKALSON: Well let me put it differently. It was the time(10 when the African National Congress was. seen as the enemy? -- (When the African National Congrt^s was seen as the..)? Seen as the enemy? -- That is correct. And that is how you were trained to see the African National Congress? -- At that time I was trained as a policeman. But when you got into the internal stability unit, it was, part of your duties were to try and act against the African National Congress supporters? -- Ek het, ek het wet en orde ge- handhaaf mnr. die Voorsitter. CHAIRMAN: Wat is die antwoord op die Afrikaanse vrae? -- I was(20 not trained to act against the African National Congress. I was trained to keep law and order. HR CHASKALSON: But wasn't the internal stability unit at that time trained to see the African National Congress as the enemy? CHAIRMAN: Was dit gedurende 1986 reeds die internal stabilise- ringseenheid? -- Nee nee. Wat was dit destyds? -- Toe was dit die onluste-eenheid. Die? -- Onluste-eenheid. Riot. HE CHASKALSON: You see, yes it was the riot squad? -- That is right. (30 And/...

9 C RQOS And didn't the riot squad see the African.National Congress and its supporters as its enemy? -- That is correct. And Boipatong today is seen as a town which supports the African National Congress? -- Mnr. die Voorsitter.. (tussen- bei). CHAIRMAN: Destyds? Dit was gedurende MR HATTINGH: He says today. CHAIRMAN: Mr Chaskalson, today or then? MR CHASKALSQN: No now. CHAIRMAN: Now. -- At present I cannot answer that question. (10 HR CHASKALSON: In 1991 and 1992 when you were stationed at Vereeniging as the internal inability unit, was Boipatong seen as a town who supported the African National Congress? -- They were not considered by me as to supporters of what organisation. You had no idea then about the political feelings of the people of Boipatong? No. Never a matter which was of any concern to you? You did not know who they supported? They might be Inkatha supporters, they might be African National Congress supporters, they may be National Party supporters? -- Mr Chairman it did not make any-(20 thing to me as to what political organisation these people were supporting. I am not asking you whether it made any difference. I am asking you whether you understood that to be the position? -- I cannot say, I did not have an interest. And as far as KwaMadala hostel was concerned, the people of KwaMadala hostel seemed to be supporters of Inkatha? -- Mr Chairman I knew that the Zulu's were the dwellers there. As to what political organisation they were, that I did not have interest. (30 And/...

10 C ROOS And once again, as far as you were concerned, they may have been members of the African National Congress, of Inkatha, of the National Party? -- Yes that is correct. You did not see political differences as having anything to do with your work? -- That is correct. The political organisation to which a person belonged, it was not my, it did not concern me. And it did not come into the way that you had to plan for your work or to make- provision for what might happen? -- Yes it is correct Mr Chairman. (10) Now I think you told my learned friend, Mr Visser that you knew of no attacks by the people of Boipatong on KwaMadala? -- Kan u net vir ons die vraag herhaal asseblief? Ja u het gese dat u het nie geweet van enige aanvalle van die mense van Boipatong op KwaMadala nie? -- Van Boipatong op KwaMadala? Ja. -- Yes I cannot re r.ember that there was such incident, that is correct. Het u kennis gedra van aanvalle van mense van KwaMadala op Boipatong? -- There were allegations of the KwaMadala's at-(20) tack on Boipatong. En was daardie bewerings in verband met skade wat in Boipatong aangerig is? -- Mr Chairman there was allegations that the KwaMadala attacked the Boipatong but there was no concrete confirmation. Nee, maar was daar wel aanvalle wat gebeur het? -- Nie waarvan ek kennis dra nie. Was daar nie skade wat in Boipatong aangerig is? -- Is dit nou die aand of van watter gevalle praat u nou van mnr. die Voorsitter? (30) Nee/...

11 C ROOS Nee ek pr'aat nie van "die aand van 17 Junie nie. Ek praat van die tydperk van tien maande toe u die hoof van die onlus- eenheid was. MB-.RQSSQUW: Voor die aanvalle van die aand van 17 Junie. MR CHASKALSON: I am asking f.hpsn ions during the period of ten months whether there were incidents or damages inflicted on the Boipatong. -- I cannot remember. I will have to go and remind myself. Wat was die verhouding tussen die mense van Boipatong en die mense van KwaMadala? -- I cannot say what the position or(10) the feeling between the KwaMadala and Boipatong's people was. U het geen kennis gedra van enige kwaadwilligheid tussen die daar een groep en die ander groep nie? -- Mnr. die Voorsitter, as beskadigings was, sou ek nie basies die dinge ondersoek het ora in te gaan nie.. CHAIRMAN: Nee maar die vraag is was u bewus van enige kwaadwilligheid tussen die twee groepe? -- Wei daar was, daar was gevoe- lens. Kwade gevoelens? -- There were enmity feelings between KwaMadala and Boipatong residents. (20) HE CHASKALSON: Nou hoe het u daarvan bewus geword? -- I came to know about that through information. En wat was die rede vir daardie verhouding? Die inligting wat u gekry het, wat was die oors..k van die kwaadwilligheid, volgens die inligting wat u ingewin het, wat was die oorsaak van die kwaadwilligheid? -- I cannot say what the cause was of this enmity. En u het nooit navrae daaromtrent gedoen? -- I did not make enquiries about that. Kaptein Roos, ons het, daar is getuienis in verband met (30) die/...

12 C RQOS die veiligheidsmagte in die gebied, die Vereeniging gebied, maar u kan vir ons seker besonderhede daarvan gee? Mr Chairman I wonder if it will be convenient to take an adjournment at this stage? CHAIRMAN: We will adjourn until 14:15. COMMISSION ADJOURNS DESMOND VINCENT RQOS: s.u.o. (through interpreter) COMMISSION RESUMES CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CHASKALSON: Captain Roos you were in command at the internal stability unit in Vereeniging? -- That is correct Mr Chairman. (10) How many people did you have under your command? -- I had plus/minus 100. And in an emergency they could be called up? -- That is correct. And then there was also the Vaal Commando which was stationed at Iscor? -- I do not have knowledge of the Vaal Commando Mr Chairman, but I have neve;: worked with it. Did you have no idea what the strength of the Vaal Commando was? -- (What the..)? Strenght of the Vaal Commando was? -- No Mr Chairman 1(20) had had no insight into their strength. On the evening of 17 June there came a time, the night of 17/18 June there came a time when you called on their army for ssistance? -- That is correct Mr Chairman. And whom did you call upon? Was it the permanent force and not the Vaal Commando? --1,1 was dealing with commandant Topper of group 17. Do you know approximately how many people were under the control of group 17? -- No I have no knowledge Mr Chairman. Have you ever had to call on them before? -- That is(30) correct. And/...

13 C ROOS And did you not satisfy yourself at that time of the sort of assistance that they could provide? -- I was satisfied with the help they could provide me with. Did you not know what the extent of that help would be, whether you needed 50 or 100 or 200 men, whether y j could call on them? -- I do not know what the strength in number, their strength in number is, but whenever I asked for help, they had gi/en me the help. So let me put it this way then that, whenever you needed help, you could call upon them and they would provide it? --(10 That is so Mr Chairman. And then there is also the Iscor security establishment? -- There is such an establishment as the Iscor security. And they also had a reaction force attached to their security force? -- I have no knowledge of that Mr Chairman. So you also really did not know much about the Iscor security force? -- That is correct. And then, now your unit had a radio control room? -- That is correct. And are there occasions in which you have to work with(20 the South African Defence Force or keep in contact with the South African Defence Force? -- That is correct. And does the South African Defence Force have access to your radio control room? That is correct. Is there a man, is there somebody from the South African Defence Force who is stationed all the time in your radio control room? -- That is correct. And do you have someone stationed all the time in the South African Defence Force control room? -- No. So it is just the Defence Force that has access to your (30 control/...

14 C ROOS control room? -- That is correct. Now can you tell us what, in your radio control room what lines of communication are there with other sections of the security forces, for instance, we know that there is an internal stability unit channel. -- Dit is reg ons het ons eie kanaal. Is there, can you mention any other channels? -- There is the Vereeniging radio control. There is also a municipal radio which we normally refer to as the municipal police radio. And is the South African Defence Force person in your radio control room able to communicate with the South African(lO) Defence Force? -- That is correct. He can only communicate with the Defence Force. He cannot communicate with our vehicles. Does he have a radio in your room which links him to the South African Defence Force? -- That is correct yes. And does he sit, is the reason for that in case you need to communicate with the South African Defence Force or the South African Defence Force needs to communicate with you, the internal stability unit, that that is one point where this communication can be made? -- That is correct. So that night in your radio control room, all the infor-(20) mation which was coming in through the South African Defence Force radio would be known to the South African Defence Force radio representative and all the information that was coming through.he internal stability unit channels and other police channels would be known to your operator. -- That should be yes. So there could be a total picture in the radio control room with all the information available to both the South African Defence Force and the internal stability unit? -- That is correct. And that information can then be communicated, well let (30) me/...

15 C ROQS me ask you this differently, the person, when you are in charge, when you are on duty, do you go regularly into the radio room to see what information is available? -- No one does not go in there regularly. Information is conveyed to a person even in one's office or s. on. And at the time of a crisis or an emergency, would you go into the radio room to be close to where the information is coming from? -- That is correct. That would be recognised procedure? -- That is correct. And if Sergeant Kruger were on duty, that is what he(10) would be doing? -- No Mr Chairman he would not do that. He is in control outside and he woulc, therefore have gone outside where he could exercise control. Yes I understand that, but before he goes out, during the period that he is actually in the station and exercising control from the station, that is what you would expect of him, whilst he is at the station? -- No Mr Chairman I would not expect that from him. I would expect of him to go out where he would be in control. Now, and you would expect, I assume, the radio operator(20) to communicate with the people all the relevant information that is coming through all channels whilst they are out? -- (You would expect the..)? Radic operator to communicate all relevant information to the person in command while he is out of the station? -- That is correct. And what is what ought to have happened on the night of the 17th when Sergeant Kruger was away from the station? -- That is correct. Now Captain Roos we have been given a three-page (30) statement/...

16 C RODS statement which had been made by you. I would just like to show you a copy of that statement. I would like you to look at it. Can you just glance through it for me to see if you recognise that statement? -- That is correct. Can you tell us w 'e n it was made? -- Last Friday sir. Last week? CHAIRMAN: MR DU TQIT: Is it a statement taken by you Mr du Toit? No.. (intervenes). CHAIRMAN: Was it supplied to you? MR DU TQIT: Supplied to the commission by Mr Hattingh yester-(lo) day, on Friday sorry. MR CHASKALSQN: So it was take, last Friday? Have you made any statements about the incident before then? I submitted, I only submitted a statement concerning a man that had phoned me, that was all. But had you not previously made any statement in connection with your own knowledge of the events of the night of the 17th/18th before last Friday? -- No other statements before that I made. Had you been questioned by anybody about the events of(20) the 17th and 18th before last Friday? -- I was questioned. Can you remember by whom? -- Mr Hattingh and so on. I see. Well let me leave that. This statement, does it contain everything that you consider to be important, this statement that you made, this three-page statement? -- That is correct. Did you read through it after it was made? -- That is correct. Can we assume that as far as you are concerned, nothing that is important has been left out of that statement? -- (30) Everything/...

17 C RODS Everything contained in this statement is in my feeling what I regard as important. And nothing what you regard as important has been left out of your statement? -- This is basically all I can testify about regarding that incident of that night. And did you also speak to Prof Warrington when he was out here? -- That is correct. Now I think you told us about the complaint that you had received concerning' Zone, I think it was 11, but anyway, in Se- bokeng, some complaint about activity in Sebokeng. -- That is(10) correct. Did anybody ever communicate kith you to say that there had been reports that there might be trouble in the Vaal Triangle that night? -- Not that I can remember now at this stage Mr Chairman. Well let us think back there. It was 17 June, it was quite a tense period was it not, 16/17 June The only person who had contacted me was this Modebedi and that was the only knowledge I had. Yes what I am asking you it is correct is it not, that it(20) was quite a tense period, 16/17 June 1992? -- It was yes Mr Chairman. And if you had received reports that trouble was expected in the Vaal Triangle on the night of i7 June, would you have taken those reports seriously? -- That is correct. But you say nobody communicated that information to you? -- That is correct. I suppose if trouble had been expected, you may have stayed on duty yourself? -- That is correct. And you may have called up reinforcements? -- That is(30) correct. Now/...

18 C RODS Now you went to your home when you knocked off duty and you unit told us you remained in contact with with internal stability through a radio which you had in your home? -- That is correct. Can you explain to us what sort of radio this is? -- It is Motorola 40SX. As I understand you keep it in your bedroom? -- That is right. And what information had carried over that radio? Is it only connected to the internal stability unit or is it connect-(10 ed to other channels as well? -- It is only on the internal stability unit's channel. CHAIRMAN : En kan u alles hoor wat hulle in die radiobeheerkamer kan hoor of nie? -- Ek kan, ek kan van die gesprekke ja. Daar is van die gesprekke.. (tussenbei). Alles wat hulle kan hoor kan u ook in u slaapkamer op- vang? -- There f.re some conversations that I sometimes can hear, conversations that take place in the control room and I will explain call why I say I can hear some. The radio works through what we a repeater system, in other words it has got to be led from(20 one beacon to another beacon. There is some times when two people are in conversation can hear what comes through from another beacon and not what comes through from the other beacon. So u kan alles hoor wat hulle se in die beheerkamer, maar nie noodwendig hoor alles wat inkom nie? -- It is correct yes that one can hear everything that is being said in the control room but you cannot necessarily hear everything that goes into the control room. MR CHASKALSQN: Is that the reason why, if people want to speak to you, they may wish to link up directly with you and (30 communicate/...

19 C RODS communicate information to you? In other words the people in the control room will know that you will hear what they say, but not necessarily what they hear? -- That is correct. And everybody, so anybody, so when you are off duty, people know that you will only have part of the information that is coming through, but not all the information that is coming through? -- That is correct. Now as far as, if somebody, one of your.. Let me move from that, that radio you say is kept in your bedroom? -- That is correct. (10) Now I take it if you are wandering in and out of your bedroom, when you are out of your bedroom, you will not necessarily hear what is being said over the radio? -- That is correct. Now if some of your men who are out on duty want to communicate with you specially to pass on information, how do they do that? How do they attract your attention? -- They, they call me over the radio. And if you are out of the room, what happens? -- They would keep on calling until I respond, otherwise they would con-(20) tact me by telephone. Right, so if anybody wants to pass any information on to you, they know they must either call you over the radio and if you are not there, they must make arr lgements for you to called to the radio so they can speak to you, is that correct captain? HE HATTINGH: That is not what he said Mr Chairman. He said otherwise they would telephone him and give him the information. CHAIRMAN: Ja, ja. HE CHASKALSON: That is exactly what I think my proposition reflects. (30) CHAIRMAN/...

20 C RODS CHAIRMAN: It is covered by Mr Chaskalson's statement. Well there seems to be some dispute about it, so perhaps you can put it again. That is how I understood it. But the record will show that. HE CHASKALSON: Well we have not got an answer yet, so Captain Roos what I am trying to put to you is that, if somebody wanted to reach you over the, when you are at home and somebody wants to reach you, they know that they can do it either by calling over the radio and if you are in your room and you hear it, you will respond to it, or they know if you do not respond, that(10) they have a way of reaching you over the telephone and in that way you can come back to your radio to speak to them? CHAIRMAN: No, no, no, I see the point. The point is if he is not contactable on the radio, they will speak to him on the telephone. They will not tell him on the telephone to go to the radio. MR CHASKALSON: It depends if you have a telephone in your car or not. Let us not enter into a debate Captain. All that I want to put to you, is that there are ways of bringing of bringing you to the radio to communicate with your men in an emergency?(20) -- That is correct. Now in your statement you mentioned that Sergeant Kruger communicated with you from KwaMadala. -- That is correct. Was that the first communication that you had had with Sergeant Kruger that night? -- No. When had you spoken previously with Sergeant Kruger? -- It might have been a few minutes before that when he might have been telling me that he is on his way to the place and afterwards to tell me that he is there. Did you know he was going to KwaMadala? -- That is(30) correct. When/...

21 C RODS When did you know he'was going to KwaMadala? -- I cannot remember the precise time, but it was as the information was coming in, that he said he is on his way out. He is going to KwaMadala. CHAIRMAN: Laat ek net vra, was u in staat om dire. met hom te praat oor die radio? Dit was mos nie deur die beheerkamer nie? I was communicating with him directly over the radio at that stage Mr Chairman. fclr CHASKALSON: And you had no difficulty reaching him and speaking to him? No I did not. (10) CHAIRMAN: Was dit die posisie toe hy by KwaMadala was en ook toe hy na Boipatong gegaan het? -- At that stage I communicated with him directly. In certain areas in Boipatong I am not able to communicate directly with him and at KwaMadala when one would move to either side a certain number of paces away from a point where I can communicate with him, I would not be able to communicate with him. HE CHASKALSON: But you were communicating with each other you say, whilst he wa on his way to KwaMadala and whilst he was at KwaMadala? -- That is correct. (20) Why did he go to KwaMadala? -- He went to KwaMadala after there had been an alleged information that people had been running across the road. And what was the source of that infr mation? Can I ask you, let me step back a little back captain, were the people running over the road to KwaMadala hostel or were they running over the road away from KwaMadala hostel? -- The allegation was that the people had run over the road from Boipatong to KwaMadala. And do you know who provided that information, where it (30) cam/...

22 C ROOS came from? -- No I do not know. Was this something that Sergeant Kruger told you? -- This was something said over the air. By Sergeant Kruger or by somebody else? -- It was by Sergeant Kruger. And who was he speaking to? Was he speaking directly to you at this stage or was he talking to somebody else, or was he talking to his control room at this stage? We were at this stage busy communicating. That is myself and Sergeant Kruger. Well could you tell us, had you been communicating with(10) him before then? -- No that is the first occasion that I spoke to him when he told' me this, and he then said he was going to KwaMadala and afterwards he spoke to me again to tell me that he is there. So if I can just understand the picture as you saw it that evening when you were at home, you had heard reports about attacks in Boipatong? -- That is correct, I had heard of attacks in Boipatong. And you had heard or can I ask you whether you, just bear with me for a moment Mr Chairman. You had been listening earlier(20) in the evening to the internal stability channel, I think you said? -- That is correct. You had heard the complaint about the attack in Boipatong? -- *nat is correct. The internal stability unit log reports the following: "Klagte ontvang vanaf Q dat 'n groep Inkatha-lede in Boipatong besig is om eiendom te beskadig." Had you heard that report? -- No Mr Chairman I would not have heard that report, because I do not have such a radio in my house. (30) CHAIRMAN/...

23 C ROOS CHAIRHAN: Just give a brief translation of what you said now. HR CHASKALSQH: I beg your pardon. The report reads complaint received from Q that a group of Inkatha members in Boipatong are busy damaging property. CHAIRMAN: What wa_> the time of that report? MR CHASKALSQN: 22:10. 21:40 it is logged. You say you would not have received that report? -- No I would not have heard that report. How did you become aware of the fact that there was trouble in Boipatong? Did someone communicate with you to tell you(10) that or did you pick up a report from one of your members to another member concerning the t matter? There is a municipal police radio which I made mention of earlier which is in that radio control room of ours. There is communication through that radio between our office and the office of the municipal police. None other of our, of our internal stability unit members can get such communication between the office, our office and that of the municipal police. I received this message when it was channelled through on our channel to our vehicles. Now what was the message? I do not understand you. You(20) received a message which was sent through from the internal stability unit channel to the internal stability unit vehicles. Where were the internal stability unit vehicles then? -- I do not know w.^ere precisely where the vehicles were at the time, but they were in the process of moving into the area. And what was being communicated to the vehicles? Did you hear a communication from your vehicles to your control room or from your control room to the vehicles? -- The communication that was called over the radio from the control office, radio control office to Sergeant Schlebush was that there had been (30) shooting/...

24 C ROns shooting taking place in Boipatong. stage yes. And was that all that came in? -- That is all at that And did you hear anything more before you spoke to Sergeant Kruger? -- At that stage Sergeant Schlebush was reporting that houses had been damaged and people had been injured and I think at that stage one dead body had been found. So I just want to get the sequence right Captain Roos, so as' I do not make any mistake. The first information you had heard was a report to Sergeant Schlebush that there was shooting(lo) in Boipatong, is this correct? -- That is correct. The next report that you hoard was a report from Sergeant Schlebush to the control room saying that there were damaged houses, that one dead body had been found and I cannot remember whether there was one or more injured persons? -- That is so. He had said he was going there and then he reported from there. Then after that was the next bit of information that you got from Sergeant Kruger or did you hear more from Sergeant Schlebush or did you hear more from any other source? -- At the time there was conversation over the radio. Sergeant Schlebush(20) had reported and Sergeant Kruger was also reporting. He was saying that he was on his way to KwaMadala. That is basically all. In your own mind did you link the people who had run across the road towards KwaMadala, in the direction of KwaMadala as having been associated in some way with the incidents in Boipatong? -- I did not have sufficient information to my disposal at the time to come to such a conclusion. Did you think that they might have been the people who were running away from Boipatong and back to KwaMadala? Did you think that those might have been the people who had been engaged (30)

25 C RQOS in the shooting and the disturbance which had been reported? There was no evidence at the time that they had gone to KwaMadala. Now I had sent people to go out and see if they would be able to get hold of those people. Who did you send ou' to see if they could get hold of the people? -- Sergeant Kruger. What were your instructions to Sergeant Kruger? I asked him to go and see what was taking place there and to report back to me. But you said something about trying to get hold of the(10) people. What did you mean by that? -- If Sergeant Kruger would find any person there or ge^ any person there, he would have had to arrest the person if it is necessary and then he would let the investigating people take that further. So you had sent Sergeant Kruger out to see if he could find the people responsible for the shooting and the disturbances in Boipatong, is that correct? -- No I had sent Sergeant Kruger to go and see if he would find the people who were running around there because this was, this had been the report. I see. So you sent Sergeant Kruger to KwaMadala, sorry,(20} let us do this slowly. Who were the people who were reported to be running around there? What are you referring to when you mention that? -- This was the, this was the information at our disposal, the information that people had run over the road to KwaMadala. And do I understand you to be saying that you had sent Sergeant Kruger to KwaMadala to find out if he could find those people? -- That is correct. And was that the reason why Sergeant Kruger then reported to you from KwaMadala? -- That is correct. (30) And/...

26 C Rons And did you have a discussion with him at KwaMadala? Were you speaking to each other over the radio directly? -- That is correct, we did speak over the radio. Did you ask him whether he had been able to find the people? -- I asked him if he had found anything there, whether he had seen anything there and he replied no. No, but as I understand your evidence, you say you had sent Sergeant Kruger to KwaMadala to see whether he could find the people who had been running across the road towards KwaMadala. Did you ask him whether he had found those people? I ask-(10) ed him if he had found, seen anything or found anything there and he said no. Would he have understood that in the context of your discussion as an enquiry as to whether he had been able to find the people who had run across the road going towards KwaMadala? -- The allegation Mr Chairman, had been that people had run over the road. That is why I had sent him. Captain Roos, if the people who had run across the road lived in the hostel, where would you look for them? -- If you do not see a person Mr Chairman, then you would not know who you(20) are giving chase after. Now if the people were not being seen, then you would not know where they stay. This was the report that I had received back. You are not really answering my question Captain Roos. Will you listen to it? If you think, if the people whom you are looking for live in a hostel and are seen running across the road towards the hostel, where would you expect to find them? -- Op die stadium het ons nie geweet wie is hulle nie. I am not asking you about your knowledge. Assume that you believed that the people live in a hostel and are seen running (30)

27 C Rons across the road ' in the direction of a hostel, where would you expect to find them? -- If a person resides in a hostel and he runs into the hostel, one would assume that that is where he resides. And if you had a complaint that people living in the hostel had murdered and injured others and at the same time you have information that people are seen running away from the scene of the crime in the direction of the hostel, where would you suspect that those people might be going to? -- One would expect that they can be found in the hostel if that is where(10 they reside. Yes. And if you have information that a large group of people had attacked.. Well let us step back a bit. Assume that there is information that a large group of people have attacked Boipatong, that they, that the people of Boipatong say that they are people from KwaMadala hostel, that you have some more information that immediately after the attack a group is seen running across the road in the direction of KwaMadala hostel, a very large group of some hundreds of people, would you suspect that the attackers might possibly come from the hostel? -- It could(20 be possible. Isn't it an overwhelming probability? -- It is probable that they could have come from there. Did it occur to you on thr night of the 17th when you were in discussion with Sergeant Kruger that that in fact, was the position, that the attackers probably came from KwaMadala hostel? -- I did not have any information at that stage Mr Chairman that could, information that could positively lead to KwaMadala. It is not our duty, the internal stability unit, to go and investigate the case. Our duty would end with the (30 stabilising/...

28 C ROOS stabilising of an area. CHAIRMAN: Indien sersant Kruger u ingelig het dat die aanval- lers waarskynlik in KwaMadala hostel was, sou u niks gedoen het nie? -- Nee, ek sou nie niks gedoen het nie mnr. die Voorsitter. Ek sou die.. (tussenbei). Wat sou u gedoen het? -- I would not have done nothing if Sergeant Kruger had said the attackers had possibly come from KwaMadala. I would have had the investigating team going in there. HE CHASKALSQN: Captain Roos let us investigate that for a mo-(10 ment. When people are running away from the scene of a crime, they are likely to have blood on their clothes, they are likely to be carrying weapons which might have been used in the offences, is that not correct? -- That is possible. And isn't the best way to find that evidence and to find the a guilty people to go after them as quickly as possible? If person commits an offence in my presence or in the presence of Sergeant Kruger, then Sergeant Kruger would arrest such a person, but if the person is gone, we would leave the investigation over to the investigating team. (20 Even if you are hot on the trail of a person? -- If we would be able to see the person, then we would arrest such a person, otherwise we do not investigate such cases further. So if you see people running away from the scene of the crime but did not see them committing the crime..? Well let me put it differently. You know that a crime has been committed. You see people running away from the scene of the crime. You know that they are a large group of people, some hundreds and that they are going to a particular place. If you do not see the crime yourself, you do nothing? (30 CHAIRMAN/...

29 C RODS CHAI RMAN: That was not the evidence Mr Chaskalson. What you are putting now is something entirely different. MR CHASKALSON: Well I want to.. (intervenes). CHAIRMAN: What Captain Roos says is that if he gets information that a crime has been committed and the perpetrators have left the not scene and have gone to their hostel in this case, then it is the work of the internal stability unit to investigate. They would then get the observation team. By the same token Captain Roos said, as I understand him, if they know a crime has been committed and they see the alleged or suspected perpetrators in(10) the act of going away, then it is their duty to arrest them. HR CHASKALSON: So Captain Roos if you are outside a hostel. Let us just see what happened that night at KwaMadala hostel. Outside the hostel we know that there were a number of armed vehicles. There was one from the Boipatong police, there was one from the internal stability unit and we know that there were Iscor security people in the vicinity. We know that the army was on call and that you called them up. We know all the complaints that led up to that moment. Would it not have been appropriate to have kept the hostel under observation and under control and(20) sealed it off at that time and for people to go in immediately and undertake the investigation? -- I do not know how many vehicles and/or who, all the people that were there, there was, but if the investigation officers had wanted to ^eal off the area, they could have done that. Captain Roos, at the internal stability unit in Vereeniging at your headquarters there, you have a machine or you have a machine which is meant to record all the conversations which passed over the radio? -- That is correct. Now what was the purpose of having that machine there? -- (30) The/...

30 C ROOS The purpose of that machine was to record conversations and if there was to be anything of importance that this also be.. Capable of being recalled? -- That it be recalled. And why would it be necessary to be able to recall those discussions or those conversations? -- That would be only for purposes of statistics or whatever information might have to be recalled. So the recordings are made so that you would be able to use them to establish statistics and for what other purpose? -- For, to recall any other information that might possibly have(10' come through. When it was installed, did you think it would be of help to you? -- That is correct. How was it going to help you? -- Incidents that might have taken place, information that might have come through, would all be recorded there and if whatever of all this information would be necessary to be recalled, would then be recall- And that necessity could arise at any time in the future? -- That is correct. (20; So the purpose of recording the information is to keep it so that whenever you need it, you can have access to it? That is correct. Now what arrangements did you make to keep the information? -- The tapes were to be kept for a certain period of time. There were no prescriptions as to for how long they were to be kept. The discretion was mine. And how did you exercise that discretion? -- If there were no incidents of importance, I had the tapes turned over so as to use them on the other side. (30] And/...

31 C Rons And on the night of; did you think that the information which would come in on the night of 17 June was of importance, that the information which was recorded on the night of 17 June at the time of the Boipatong massacre, did you regard that as important? -- That is correct. Did you give instructions to be tapes to be turned around and used on the other side? -- That is correct. We were turning the tapes around at that stage. Well then I do not understand your previous answer when you said that if the information was not important, you would(lo) give instructions for them to be turned around and re-used. -- There was a fault that ere,, t in with these tapes. We had all along been recording and then turning them around to record on the other side, not knowing that it was wrong. Then I still do not understand your previous answer Captain Roos, but let us not take trouble on that. You have now said that as a matter of routine, you were turning the tapes around and using them on both sides, is that correct? -- Yes we were using the tapes on both sides. When you had recorded on both sides of the tapes, what(20) arrangements are made for storing them? -- The tapes would be removed and be locked up in the safe that was at the time in my office. For,iow long would they be locked up in the safe;' -- As I have already said so, Mr Chairman there was no specific time prescribed for this. Let us go back to where it all started. What arrangements did you then make in regard to how long those tapes should be kept for? -- I had thought at the time to myself that we would keep the tapes for two weeks and we would then have them cleaned (30) and/...

32 G ROOS and we would then use them again. Now how would that help you with the statistics which you, you said the tapes were used for purposes of compiling statistics. How would that help you compile statistics? -- If, if there would be anything of importance coming to one's attention then the information can be, the information can be recalled. I understand that, but if you only keep the tapes for two weeks and if you blot them out without listening to them, how does that help you to compile statistics? -- Can you just repeat the question please? (10) I said if you only keep the tapes for two weeks, and at the end of the two weeks you have the tapes cleaned and they are cleaned without your listening to the tapes, how does that help you to compile statistics? -- If it would come to one's attention within that two weeks that something had taken place, if it is said incidents had taken place, then one can always recall the information within that two weeks. You said one of the purposes of keeping the tapes was to enable you to compile statistics. I want to know how that purpose was served by the procedure that you followed? -- That is a(20) broader concept of, of recovering statistics. Now if, one can within 14 days get the statistics from such recordings. CHAIRMAN: Beteken dit inligting of statistiek? -- Inligting en, inligting. Nie statistiek in die sin van syfers en hoeveelhede.. (tussenbei)? -- Statistics. This is what I see or regard as information, not necessarily figures. MR CHASKALSQN: Now what is the use of keeping the tapes for two weeks only? I mean how would you know necessarily within a period of two weeks whether you would need information or not? (30) That/...

33 C RQQS That was the period of time I had given myself to keep the information. ME RQSSQUW : Kaptein hoeveel bande het julle beskikbaar gehad? -- Op daardie stadium as, seker so by 'n 80 bande. En hoe lank het dit julle gevat om die bande te vul? -- He had at the time about 80 tapes. To fill up the 80 tapes, could have taken us again about 14 days. HE CHASKALSON: Captain Roos when that equipment was installed, we understand that it was very expensive equipment? Did you know why it was installed? -- That is correct.. (10) Were you pleased to have it? That is correct. Did you make any use of it at all? -- That is correct. What use did you make of it? -- Mnr. die Voorsitter ons het al gebruik gemaak van die tape om inligting uit te kry oor mense wat geskakel het. CHALRflAIi: Mr Chaskalson are you going to be much longer on this point? HE CHASKALSON: No I will not be much longer, but I will be a little while. I will not be long. I.. --We have made use of the tape to get information on people who had, who had phoned. (20) Have you done that regularly? It had not been so much, not really regularly, but there had been some little incidents. Were there a number of occasions when you had to go and call up the tapes to see what had happened? -- I cannot recall Mr Chairman on precisely how many occasions, but I think it was on two occasions that I had the tapes to recall what had been taped. And did you take them out of your safe and then had them listened to? -- That is correct. And where were they listened to? -- They were listened to (30) in/...