Fasten Your Halachic Seatbelts Introducing...Nat Barnett! The Saga of Taste Twice Removed based on an article by Rav David Brofsky

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1 1 Fasten Your Halachic Seatbelts Introducing...Nat Barnett! The Saga of Taste Twice Removed based on an article by Rav David Brofsky Source 1: Talmud Hullin 111b איתמר, דגים שעלו בקערה, רב אמר: אסור לאכלן בכותח, ושמואל אמר: מותר לאכלן בכותח; רב אמר אסור - נותן טעם הוא, ושמואל אמר מותר - נותן טעם בר נ"ט הוא. "Fish which were 'brought up' ("alu") in a [meat] pot Rav said "it is forbidden to eat them with "kutach" (a dairy drink) and Shmuel said it's permissible, because it's Nat Bar Nat..." Rashi דגים שעלו בקערה - מן הצלי כשהיו רותחין נתנן לתוך הקערה שאכלו בה בשר. אסור לאוכלן בכותח - לפי שהבשר נותן בהם טעם. נותן טעם בר נותן טעם הוא - אם היו מבושלים עם בשר ממש היה אסור לאוכלן בכותח אי נמי מודה שמואל שאסור לאכול חלב רותח בקערה דנותן טעם ראשון הוי כבשר גמור אבל קערה זו היא עצמה אינה בשר אלא על ידי נותן טעם ואינה כבשר. According to Shmuel, these fish may be eaten with milk, since the taste of meat which they absorbed was not considered "ta'am" (primary taste), but rather "noten ta'am bar noten ta'am" (secondary taste). In other words, since the food did not absorb the taste directly from the meat, but rather from the pot which had previously absorbed the taste of the meat, this taste is considered "secondary," and the food MAY be consumed with milk. This principle is commonly referred to in halakha as "nat bar nat." ("Nat" = notein taam). Does this leniency also apply to food cooked in unkosher vessels? The Ran (Hullin 51a) explains that although generally, the ta'am of issur can transfer its prohibited status to food and utensils even when weakened, the taste of a PERMITTED substance is different. Since the secondary taste of meat is so severely weakened, it cannot create, when combining with milk, a NEW issur.

2 2 What Is Considered "Nat Bar Nat?" Source 2: Bet Yosef Yoreh Deah Ch. 95 Rishonim review: וריב"ן חתנו כתב משמו עלו אין נתבשלו לא ואף ע"ג דבעלו נמי קבלו כדי קליפה טעם מן הבשר בבליעה מועטת התירו נ"ט בר נ"ט אבל נתבשלו ונבלע כל טעם הבשר שהיה בלוע בקדרה אסור לאכלו בכותח. The Rivan, quoting his father-in-law Rashi, maintains that the Gemara is referring to a case in which the fish are merely served hot upon a meat plate. If however, the fish were actually cooked in the meat pot, then it would certainly be prohibited to eat the fish with dairy products. Source 3: View of Sefer HaTerumah כתב הרא"ש עוד )סי' ל( ובספר התרומה )סי' סא( התיר ירקות וקטניות שנתבשלו בקדרה בת יומא חולבת רק שתהא נקייה מחלב לאכלן בתבשיל של בשר ואפילו אם נאמר עלו אין נצלו לא כשנתבשלו שרי משום דאיכא שלשה נ"ט החלב בקדרה והקדרה במים והמים בירק ועודנו היתר The Sefer Ha-Terumah agrees that if the fish were served or cooked in a meat utensil that they may be eaten with milk. If they were FRIED, however, in a meat pot, they may not. The Sefer Ha-Teruma considers taste transferred directly to the fish as a primary taste. Only when the taste must pass through the medium of water, i.e., bishul, is the taste considered to be "nat bar nat," a secondary ta'am. Source 4: View of Majority of Rishonim Rashbah, Ran, Rabbeinu Tam, Rambam וגם הרשב"א )תוה"א ב"ג ש"ד פו., ובקצר פה:( והר"ן )מ: ד"ה דגים שעלו( הסכימו דבנתבשלו שרי אלא שנראה מדבריהם שאינם מחלקים בין נצלו לנתבשלו וכן נראה מדברי ראבי"ה )סי' אלף קטו( וזקנו שכתב המרדכי )חולין סי' תשי( וכן נראה ממ"ש בהגהות אשיר"י )סי' כט( לר"י נראה הלכה למעשה דאין חילוק בין עלו לנתבשלו והכל שרי וכן קבל מרבינו תם שהורה כן הלכה למעשה עכ"ל. Most Rishonim (Rabbeinu Tam, Rambam, Rashba etc.) adopt an approach that asserts that whether the fish were served, cooked, or even fried in a meat utensil, they may still be eaten with milk.

3 3 Source 5: R. Yosef Karo, Shulchan Aruch א[ דגים א( ]א[ שנתבשלו או שנצלו בקדירה של בשר א ב( רחוצה יפה, שאין שום שומן דבוק בה, מותר לאכלם בכותח, >א< משום דהוי )א( נותן טעם ב[ בר נותן טעם דהיתרא. ואם לא היתה רחוצה יפה, ג[ אם יש בממש שעל פי הקדירה יותר מאחד בששים בדגים, אסור לאכלם בכותח. Who does Rav Karo rule according to? How do you know? Continuation of Shulchan Aruch, Paragraph 2 ב ביצה שנתבשלה במים בקדירה חולבת, מותר לתת אותה בתוך התרנגולת ד[ אפילו לכתחלה. ה[ אבל אם נתבשלה בקדירה עם בשר, ו[ >ב< ואפילו בקליפה, אסור לאכלה בכותח. What's the case? Is the Mechaber/Rav Karo consistent with his previous ruling? Source 6: Glosses of Rav Moshe Isserles/Remah הגה: ז[ >ג< ג( ויש מחמירין בצלייה ובישול לאסור נותן טעם בר נותן טעם. )ריב"ן בשם רש"י ובארוך כלל ל"ד הביא המרדכי וא"ז) The Rema disagrees. He cites the opinion of the Rivan and notes that the prevalent custom is to be stringent le-chat'chila. In other words, according to the Rema, food which was cooked or fried in meat utensils should not be eaten with milk. Only if it was merely served ("alu") hot on meat plates may it be eaten with milk. (. ג >ד< ]ב[ וארוך(. והמנהג לאסור לכתחלה, ד )ב( ד( ובדיעבד מותר בכל ענין )סמ"ק However, the Rema adds that be-di'avad, we are lenient. The Acharonim explain that he is referring to a scenario in which food cooked in a meat utensil was already mixed with milk, in which case the mixture may be consumed. Therefore, if one prepares coffee in a meat pot, one should NOT add milk to that coffee. If, however, one already added the milk, the coffee is permitted. Similarly, if one prepares pasta in a meat pot, one should NOT add cheese to the noodles. If, however, one already added cheese, the mixture is permitted.

4 4 Other scenarios in which the food can be eaten Remah continues ט[ וכן אם לא נתבשלו או נצלו תחילה, ו ]ג[ רק עלו בכלי של בשר, מותר לאכלן עם חלב עצמו. So, too if it was not initially cooked or roasted, but just went into a meat vessel, it can be eaten with dairy י[ וכן אם היה הכלי שנתבשלו או נצלו בו לפגם, שלא היה בן יומו, נוהגין היתר לכתחלה לאכלו עם המין השני )שם בארוך(. So, too, if the vessel which they were cooked in was Lefegam, ie it was not used within the past 24 hours, we are accustomed to serve it lichatchila with the opposite (ie meat or dairy) food The Acharonim debate whether one may intentionally prepare food in an "eino ben yomo" dairy pot to be served with meat. The Vilna Gaon writes that this should be permitted. Others rule that in cases of need, i.e., if one doesn't have enough meat pots, it is permitted to intentionally use an "eino ben yomo" dairy pot to prepare pareve food for a meat meal. Others insist that while one may not INTENTIONALLY do so, if one did not realize that the pot was dairy, or if one did not cook the food with the intention to serve it with meat, one may subsequently eat this food with meat. Therefore, according to this opinion, if one cooked pasta in a pot which was "eino ben yomo" from its last contact with milk, if one did not realize that the pot was dairy or if one did not intend to eat the pasta with meat, one may consume the pasta with meat. This type of food may be eaten after meat, even during the same meal. Therefore (even according to Remah) one may serve a cake baked in a dairy pan for dessert after a meat meal. ודוקא לאכול עם חלב והבשר עצמו, ה )ג( ח[ >ה< אבל ה( ליתנן בכלי שלהם, ו( מותר לכתחלה )באיסור והיתר הארוך(, וכן נהגו. Furthermore, the Rema writes that it may be served on meat dishes.

5 5 Source 7: Contemporary Consumer Products Rav Avraham Gordimer When products bear a "D-E" kosher symbol, it typically means that the products have no dairy content but were manufactured on hot, clean dairy equipment and are Nat bar Nat. For Ashkenazim who consume chalav stam, or who only consume only chalav Yisrael but also consume products made on chalav stam equipment, the product can be consumed immediately after meat, but not with meat. "D-E" hechsherim often appear on soy milk, sorbet and juice products, as these products are commonly manufactured in dairies and share hot equipment with milk. The D-E symbol indicates that the processing equipment was not kashered to pareve status prior to manufacturing the otherwise pareve product. One critical application is that of D-E certified soy milk. Many people cook meat foods with soy milk, and they must be aware that according to Ashkenazic p'sak, soy milk with D-E certification may not be used in meat foods. Aside from confusion regarding the implications of a D-E symbol, the OU is concerned about the risk that dairy equipment used to manufacture otherwise pareve products may not be totally clean of dairy residue. (For example, otherwise pareve snack chips and seasonings made on dairy equipment often have real dairy residue in them.) Hence, the OU has does not certify products with a D-E symbol. Exercise Caution! It May Be Fully Dairy! Consumers shouldn t assume that dairy-certified products which seem to really be "D-E" but lack such designation are indeed inherently pareve and are only dairy in terms of their processing equipment. Ingredients with which the consumer may not be familiar are often dairy, and some products contain dairy sub-ingredients which are not required to be declared. For example, I occasionally receive calls from consumers who think that certain beverages which contain caseinate (soluble milk protein) are inherently pareve and are labeled with an OUD only due to their being processed on dairy equipment. In truth, these beverages are

6 6 completely dairy, but some consumers don t know what caseinate is, and they assume that it is some type of pareve chemical. Similarly, some berry flavors contain milk subcomponents, which contribute a creamy mouthfeel to the finished product. A consumer who purchases raspberry sorbet with an OUD shouldn t assume that since the ingredient panel omits mention of dairy that the product contains no dairy and may be eaten immediately after meat, for in reality, the product's berrry flavor may contain milk. Another example is dairycertified nutritional supplements which would appear to not contain any dairy. In reality, these products often contain dairy cultures and are thus fully dairy. In short, the consumer should not make any Nat bar Nat assumptions about dairy-certified products and should treat such products as real dairy, absent information otherwise from the relevant kosher certifying agency. The above concerns are even greater when it comes to baked goods and snack foods. Baking ovens can have serious dairy residue and are not necessarily cleaned between products, and potato chips, corn chips and other snack items are processed in tumblers, which may be shared with snack products coated with cheese powders and dairy seasonings. This equipment is very often not wet-cleaned between various products, and dairy powder residue can be present on the surface of potato or corn chips that would otherwise seem to be pareve. Blending equipment, in which seasonings that are added to mashed potato mixes and numerous other products are processed, is likewise often not cleaned well between dairy and pareve products. Hence, in order to safeguard the consumer from thinking that apparently pareve foods made on such equipment are not dairy, these products must bear a regular kosher-dairy symbol. "Made on equipment/in a facility that processes milk..." The above statement is commonly found on the packaging of numerous foods - including pareve-certified foods (!). Consumers are at times baffled how a pareve product can bear a statement that apparently declares it to be dairy. The truth is that the aforementioned statement is an allergen declaration and has nothing to do with kashrus. For example, in the case of peanuts which may share ambient temperature equipment with dairy products (such as when the same packaging machinery used for milk-chocolate coated items is used for peanuts), and the

7 7 packaging equipment is verified by the kashrus agency on an ongoing basis to be thoroughly free of dairy material before packaging peanuts, the peanuts may bear a pareve certification. The fact that there is dairy in the facility or on the equipment at times does not render the peanuts dairy from a kashrus perspective if indeed the dairy has no contact with the peanuts and the equipment does not operate with heat. Consumers are always encouraged to contact the relevant kashrus agency when they seek to know the exact status of a product, be it to inquire whether a dairy-certified product is inherently dairy or is Nat bar Nat, or to understand why an apparently dairy product bears pareve certification. However, absent specific guidance from a reputable kashrus agency regarding a specific product, all bets are off - don't assume anything, and play it safe..