Bernard Matheson LRC Oral History Project 8 August 2008

Transcription

1 1 Bernard Matheson LRC Oral History Project 8 August 2008 This is an interview with Bernard Matheson and its Friday the 8th of August (2008). Bernard on behalf of SALS Foundation in the United States we really want to thank you for taking the time to participate in the LRC Oral History interview. It s my pleasure. I wondered whether we could start...if you could talk about your early childhood memories growing up in South Africa and apartheid and, where you think your sense of social justice and injustice developed; and then some of the formative influences that may have led you into the legal profession? Right. Well I was born in Johannesburg in a very mixed end called Fordsburg just outside Johannesburg...about two or three kilometres outside Johannesburg. I d lived there most of my early years. And right at the beginning I had an experience that was foreign to me in the sense that we were not permitted to live in the area. My eldest brother, who s deceased now...patrick Matheson...looked white so, it was just strange that as I was growing up, you know, you couldn t go into certain shops, you couldn t do certain things and, in order to pay the rent we used to send him, because if any of us had gone, you know, they would have discovered us and we would have been evicted. We stayed there for three, four...four years or so when we were discovered and my parents had to move. We were five brothers. I m the youngest of five. We then moved to an area called Mayfair, which is not far from Fordsburg. We stayed in the backyard of a...a sympathetic Greek immigrant (laughs) and, we lived there for several years and once again we were discovered so...we had to move again. And this time my dad secured a place in the Township called Riverlea, in Flinder Street. We were one of the first people to move in. My father was...he s...he s passed on...was a chef at the railways...the South African railways and he worked on the Blue Train, and was away a lot, but he d always come home with stories of being required to wait on people like General Smuts and a number of other senior politicians, and I d always hear these stories. It was still somewhat strange for me that there appeared to be literally two different worlds that...that were existing parallel to each other. I went to school and...at T.C. Esterhuizen in Langlaagte, a primary school and, I think my first political experience if you will, is when, in a very rudimentary fashion, I questioned why things were different for different people, and the answer I got wasn t quite satisfactory. And that afternoon there was some public holiday that had come about and everybody had assembled outside and we were required to sing the anthem and I refused. And (laughs) I was taken out of the assembly and put in class and my parents were told about it. My father wasn t there at the time and my mother was sympathetic and she understood why I d done what I d done. I was quite young. I think I was in Standard four or so. What do you think was the impetus for this?

2 2 I don t know, I just felt there was a sense of...a deep sense of justice that I had that, you know, it s fine to have a system provided it treats everybody fairly and gives everybody a fair shot. And I just didn t feel comfortable with literally institutionalising this disparate treatment. So I finished my primary school and I started high school when I was in standard six. The street that...the township life is very close and, you know, you basically know everyone in the township. At that age I started talking to other people. In fact my neighbour was Ignatius Jacobs who was the MEC for transport...former MEC for education. Ignatius was next door...just a few doors up the road. Christopher van Wyk, the author lived there, and we always had these meetings. Jesse Duarte would come to the meetings as well. And we started to take firm views and discuss what was wrong and what had to be done. And then we started to learn about other organisations that had been doing the same thing and, we gradually built a fairly regular structure that would meet regularly. This went on through my initial years at...in high school. There were a number of incidents, after 76, you know, as police that had come to the townships...the normal thing, we had demonstrated, fire department with rubber bullets etc. When I was in matric...i was Head Boy at matric and, just before my matric year I went off to a course in Cape Town in Elgin, called Veld and Flair, I think it s fairly common overseas, it s some adventure course or so, but I had met a number of people there and, they certainly...i was very interested in political views they had. I d come back from that course and I did my matric and I was keen to study law. My grades weren t great at the time...well, in fact in standard nine I think I spent a fair amount of time working because I then represented the then Transvaal in...at the National Science Youth Week. There was about, I think, eighty or a hundred people that had written exams all over the country and I was in standard nine at the time. And ninety-nine of them, who were matriculants, and I was the only standard nine pupil who had made the grade. So again, that exchange was important, you know. I met people there from all over the country with different political views. We had healthy debates and it just kind of peaked my interest in doing something about the system that was so fundamentally unjust. I came back and I think then our meetings, back in the township, intensified. We had regular demonstrations with...at the time there was a separate roll for coloured people...a Voters Roll, they demonstrated against that. At one of those demonstrations I was detained at the Langlaagte Police Station. Fingerprinted, photo s taken, etc. From that day there was regular harassment. We had developed a system simply where, you know, we d not be at home at certain times. And police would come round and leave. The sad thing was obviously your family gets intimidated and my mum had really taken strain. And my father wasn t too happy about the late night visits or so. I then decided that I wanted to go to university. I think that would reflect the feelings that I had. I left. I applied to Wits and, at the time I had to...you had to apply for Ministerial Consent to attend a white university. I got the Ministerial Consent from Minister Piet Koornhof at the time but then I decided I wasn t going to go to Wits and I went down to University of the Western Cape. And that really shaped my political understanding and my views. I met Mr Mohamed Navsa there (laughs) and I would subsequently work with him at the Legal Resources Centre. He was in his final year, I think, and I was in my first year. We had, again, vigorous debates with...src members; I think Cheryl Carolus was there at the time. This was from 1979 through to I think it was where I completed a B.PROC degree at Western Cape. I then came back and went to Wits, did an LLB and after LLB it was during that year I d worked at the Legal Resources Centre.

3 3 Oh, right. As a vac student? As a vac student initially, yes. Well it was part of a course that we were doing there. I think it was called Practical Legal Studies. It was Paul Pretorius who was partly responsible for presenting the course and I just stayed on. I had then come into an environment that I was very comfortable with and, here was an organisation that could in a sense use the skills that were available to apply maximum effort, to make fundamental changes and differences in indigent people s lives. So I d work with...i think there was Morris Zimmerman at the time, who has since passed on. Mr Zim Yes! And I always remember walking into his office whenever I had a problem and he had a sign board on his desk that would say, you know: Complaints is on the ninety-ninth floor. Please use the stairs. (Laughter) So he d always say to me: I hope you re not coming to complain. And show me the sign. But he was, I mean I...he was just such a tremendous teacher. Arthur Chaskalson was there at the time as well. Geoff Budlender, Paul Pretorius, Karel Tip and... Mohamed Navsa? Mohamed Navsa was obviously there and Charles Nupen. And Pinky Madlala And Pinky yes. And Felicia (Kentridge) was there also at the time. And we used to have these annual Christmas parties at Felicia s place. Then...that s where I met Ma V (Vesta Smit) and Cecilie (Palmer). And myself and Mohamed (Navsa) eventually got drawn into a marathon...table tennis competition. Oh really? (Laughter) Yes. We started off playing just casual games and it became fairly intense. I m sure we probably played more than two hundred games or so but it became fairly intense that it...it was a sort of a mini Wimbledon if you will and... Quite competitive?...and very competitive. And if you know Mohamed (Navsa)...Mohamed is extremely competitive. And we d have these intense games played in the library of a lunch because at the time I d been working at Webber Wentzel. And I used to come down lunch time just to do some work and, it became so intense Arthur Chaskalson had to intervene on numerous occasions just to keep us apart and say: Chaps, it s only a game. (Laughter)

4 4 Where do you think that was coming from? I don t know, you know. It...the environment at Legal Resources Centre I thought was one that would encourage competition fairly. But it would in a sense that it would create an environment for you to try and achieve your best. And there was always this banter and, you know, we d always challenge each other and...really in a constructive way try and push each other to our respective limits. I know on one occasion I had an argument that ensued and Arthur once again with...i think Geoff (Budlender) and Charles (Nupen) were there as well...intervened, and I had stormed out of the library... Was this with Mohamed Navsa? With Mohamed, yes (laughs). And Mohamed s not a person to tender apologies very easily if you know him, so I d gone back to Webber s and two days had passed and, I promised I wasn t coming back to the Legal Resources Centre to play...just to do some work. And on the third day Mohamed called me and...i m not sure if there...well I always ask him this: If the apology was genuine or...or really the...his, missing the intense competition. (Laughter) Perhaps it was both? Perhaps, ya. I d like to think it...it was the apology. But I came back and we continued playing and...i ve always had that relationship with Webbers...with Legal Resources Centre. I remember how I d met Graham. I was doing Articles at Webbers and I was working at Legal Resources Centre on Saturdays and I had a huge dispute for the Steel Workers Union. This is through Webbers? No, no, through the Legal Resources Centre. And because I could only work on Saturdays the attorneys who were acting for the steel company contacted Legal Resources Centre and they needed a number to talk to me in the course of the week. And Ma V (Vesta Smit), or Cecilie (Palmer), as the case may be, gave them a number and...on...i think it was in the course of the week and I was working at Webbers, I got a phone call from Graham and Graham says: Are you Bernard Matheson? I said: Yes. He said: You act for the following applicants? I said: I do. So he said: Where about are your offices? And I said, you know: We re in Johannesburg. He said: Just because the telephone number looks very familiar. Just repeat the telephone number. And I gave him the telephone number again, and he said: Who do you work for? So I said: Well I m working...i m doing this matter through Legal Resources Centre. And he said: And where are you? I said: No, we re in Eagle Star House. He said: Which floor? I said: On the first floor. And he said: Don t you want to do me a favour? Just put the phone down and walk out of your office. And I walked out of my office and he was two offices away. He was also working for Webber Wentzel.

5 5 Really? Ya, and that s how I met Graham. We eventually settled the matter. At Webbers there was another person who had strong ties to the Legal Resources Centre, Derek Reed, and, you know, Derek was very sympathetic, you know. If any time I had a particular problem I could go and discuss with him, you know. And he... He was in the Johannesburg office? He was in the Johannesburg office. And he kind of understood the position of large white firms and the need that there was for them to take a role...an active role and, you know, I always enjoyed getting that kind of support from Derek. So Derek was...an advocate or an attorney? Derek was a partner at Webber Wentzel at the time and I was in process of completing my Articles. But he had some connection to the Legal Resources Centre? Yes he did...yes he did. I then completed my Articles. I was asked to stay on... And you ve been there ever since? I ve been there ever since. There was a brief stint where I had left. I resigned and I went to Australia to go work for a company called inaudible and Page. One of the larger law firms in the Pacific, in Sydney. While I was there the partners held a meeting and I got a call two days later saying they re offering me partnership, would I come back? Good. That s wonderful. Went back. So I ve been an equity partner...i think I got partnership in But I ve always had a very warm place for the Legal Resources Centre. I want to take you a little bit back. When you were at UWC with Mohamed Navsa and also then further on, you did Practical Legal studies at Wits. At UWC you were...were you part of the Law Clinics? Yes, I was.

6 6 Right. And I wondered whether you could talk about that? Because from what I can understand the NUSAS students were involved in the UCT one and then you worked jointly at some point, and I wondered whether you could talk about it? Yes, yes. We were assigned to various clinics in the township. And, you know, I think probably that would have been my first taste of the type of work that I thought mattered. We d also become members of the then United Democratic Front. There was always passionate discourses that would take place after church with Alan Boesak because he was the local priest, and I think most of the people that had come from I mean, UWC was just such a vibrant environment to develop an understanding of really how...how debilitating this whole system was. And yes we...because I d done the B Proc Degree, so in my final year I was attending classes with LLB students and those students were responsible for leading the Law Clinics in the township, and that was certainly a fruitful experience for me, you know. Working with people, and in fact having people come back with such huge thanks for something that I would consider really hardly significant but it, you know, that small little effort made such a huge difference to these people s lives and, you know, we would otherwise take it for granted. So that certainly shaped a determination on my part to at least make some contribution. I m pleased to see at Webbers now...moray Hathorn was at the Legal Aid Board at the time and we have had numerous discussions. Moray was keen to join Webbers. He was also at Legal Resources for many years. Yes, he was that s right. When I was at Legal Resources Centre he was at the Legal Aid Board. And when I went to Webbers he came to Legal Resources Centre, and after a while he joined Webbers, a few years ago. And we have an independent Public Law erest unit. So pro-bono? Yes. So...which...which is doing quite well. And now I m pleased that I m with a firm that s in fact now taken an active role in making a contribution. I m just curious, when you were at...when you started the Legal Resources Centre the sense of competition that developed between you and Mohamed Navsa, it s curious to me because you both have similar backgrounds, you know, yet from what I can understand there was also intense competition with the NUSAS boys, as such. Yes. Karel (Tip) and Charles (Nupen) Yes. I think it s...first of all in the township there were very few people who completed school, you know. Just given the conditions of poverty there, you know,

7 7 you were required to get a job as soon as possible to help sustain the family. And of the few people who completed matric, you know, very few would get exemptions to go to university and probably study something as difficult as law at the time. And I just think, you know, I was probably almost brought alive by a challenge, and I did Latin. And I remember this quite clearly. We were approximately fifty students who had come into the class for the first time and the Latin professor said to us in Afrikaans: We had complained that there were not enough chairs. I think there was seating for about twenty people. So there was about forty people milling around, you know, it s a fairly small lecture room. And we complained that we should probably move to a bigger lecture room, and he said: No, that wouldn t be necessary. He was going to give a lesson then, and then at the end of that lesson there was going to be a test and he assured us that there d be more than enough seating place after that and he was right. And at the end of that course there were only three of us that passed. So it was quite intense? It was...it was, ya. And I know the experiences I had with a number of friends of mine who were doing science at the time and they were told blatantly in lectures that, you know...you know, you might as well try and spend that money elsewhere because you re not going. So it s...i don t think it was through lack of ability, it was by design. Now subsequently I discovered many of those lecturers were part of the Broederbond as well, so there...there were hurdles placed in your path at every turn. Seems to me a very positive thing...in hindsight? I...absolutely. I think, you know, you d...had it not been the case I d probably have just fallen into a rut and, you know, left university, got a job etc. So...so I think I was really motivated and spurred on by the difficult circumstances. Particularly when I saw that...i thought that if those were hurdles, you know...i met people who had huge hurdles that were incomparable to my hurdles and, you know, the way they face those difficulties, it made me just feel ashamed at some point that, you know, you d be complaining about this, at least you were in a university. You had an opportunity. The thing is you just had to apply yourself. In terms of being at the Legal Resources Centre you must have had a Principal, as a Fellow? I...I dealt essentially with Morris Zimmerman and Geoff Budlender to a large extent. When I came back... On the Saturdays?...On Saturdays, when I was doing Articles at Webbers. I was largely left to my own devices because, you know, I was regarded as an attorney and I take on matters, open my own files, run them. But the...where matters were particularly complex or where

8 8 we had fairly heated opposition from employer attorneys, I d discuss it with Mohamed (Navsa). And we d always...we d do research in the library and work quite late. I know of one particular incident involving Mohamed...he was very chuffed. He had been asked to do an opinion, and he drafted the opinion, he d done the research and he d given me the opinion to read, and I read it, and he had to send it to counsel. He sent it to George Bizos, and the opinion came back and he said: Have a look at that. And I went through the opinion and said: I don t see anything. He said: That s precisely the point. George had made no changes. And I think that was such a huge moment in Mohamed s life and, I was extremely impressed as well. He s gone onto better things as you know. (Laughter) I m also wondering Bernard, in terms of the type of work you did with Morris (Zimmerman) and Geoff (Budlender), what were the kind of areas of Public erest Law that appealed to you? Because it sounds to me like when you went to Webber it was largely Labour if I m not mistaken? Yes. I loved the employment law, but at the time, I mean, we were dealing with evictions. We were dealing with, you know, loan agreements that had apparently been breached by these indigent people and goods being attached, so it was a question of reversing those orders, preventing attachment, preventing the evictions and then slowly, you know, you in a sense dealt with somebody and you d have a range of problems. It would be a motor vehicle that s been attached, a threatened eviction and a dispute that had arisen at work where he d been dismissed so, it was a range, you know. You just take one person and try to resolve as much problems as you are able to. And then I suddenly started to get into employment related law and, I really started Employment Law when I was at Webbers. The difficulty at Webbers was that they only did employer work. They did not do any union work. And I struck a deal with a partnership that I would be permitted to do Trade Union work provided it didn t conflict with any of the established clients. And I was fortunate that...that conflict was largely absent. There were a number of matters where I had acted in the matter in the partner, on the other end I was acting for the employer. The good thing is I had a relationship with the partners, insofar as we would first endeavour to resolve the matter and in the absence of the matter being resolved, I would withdraw. But in many instances my partners also agreed to do that. I think of Deon Nel where a particular matter he said: Look, you know, if that s the case then I m also withdrawing. So, you know, there was...there were small events that were encouraging and I certainly appreciated it, ya. You said that you have been at of course you ve been at Webber for most of your legal career but yet somehow you hold a place for the Legal Resources Centre, why is that? Is it because of personalities or the type of work? I think it s the environment that really shaped a lot of the views that I had. It was also an environment that was welcoming at the time when...that welcome mat was not put out by many structures and institutions so, it was just so different. Because here was an institution or a group of people that were prepared to treat you on merit and they didn t have to do so, you know. They had the system that would back disparate treatment. It was regarded as the norm for one...so it was extremely...it was a

9 9 revelation for me at the time following the experience I had had at the University of Western Cape. And, you know, here was a group of people that was prepared to have frank and open debates with you, where you could express contrary views without reservation. That flies to some extent in the face of the charge that s often made against the LRC which is, that it was a sort of a liberal white institution? Ya, I know, you know, I suppose from the outside, you know, people could be forgiven for formulating that view. I think it s a misplaced conception...it s a misconception. I know that accusation has been made but, you know, if you re dealing in absolute terms then perhaps there s merit in it. In terms of the numbers? Is that what you thinking? In absolute terms. In the sense that you say it s all or nothing, you know. Either the Legal Resources Centre in a sense becomes a revolutionary organisation or they just stop doing, you know, there s no middle road. If you deal...if your argument is in absolute terms then perhaps I could understand it. Not necessarily that I ll agree with it but I still think...and I think history has shown that...that the efforts had such a huge impact that would reverberate through history for a very long time in this country. I remember also going with Arthur (Chaskalson)...we were a group of us. And normally it would be just to carry copies of documents and make copies and take notes for things to be done. And we got back to the Legal Resources Centre, at the time of the Delmas Trial, and we d drive through to Delmas and, you know, it was such an experience that it would stay with me. And it s just you had a group of people that were prepared to treat you as equal. You also mentioned that Webber now has a pro-bono section... Yes, they do. I m wondering in terms of the fact that Webber does that and other firms clearly are moving in that direction, what do you think is the role and place for an organisation like the LRC which is truly a Public erest law organisation? Yes. Look I think that they have just as an important role to play as they played during the apartheid years. You know, this hideous regime may come back in a different guise. And I think, for example, poverty and the consequences of poverty and consumer rights and why it s so critical that, you know, that the mass...the masses of people out there who still have an acute need for the assistance from a Public erest institution like the Legal Resources Centre. I know some of the people that I ve discussed the matter with have said: You know, their role is equal if not larger in a democracy then it was in and during the apartheid era. So I think they have a critical role. It s encouraging to see many large white firms who previously had no interest in

10 10 these organisations start to take an active interest and play a positive role in forming these units. And I think the collective effort of the larger law firms especially go a long way to really introducing levelling of the playing fields. I m also wondering...currently there ve been attacks on the Constitution and the Constitutional Court. And the LRC is really in its own way also a Human Rights organisation that s mandated to take on cases against government. How does that...how does it do that in that context and how can it be effective? Yes. I think, you know, in a sense that it s...provided it has as its basis basic principle the pursuit of fairness and justice. And I think you must act without fear or favour irrespective of where the injustice comes. And it would be sad if the Legal Resources Centre felt that without some allegiance to a struggle...organisations of the past...i think they should speak up irrespective of who is guilty of misconduct. The recent attacks on the judiciary is worrying. I ve...i just think that, you know, we have a judicial system that s been born of a struggle. People being involved in that system who really appreciate what a struggle is, and it would be sad to see that the system is brought down simply because different organisations feel in a sense that they ve been turned upon by organisations. The Legal Resources Centre for one that had previously assisted them. It s trying times but I think it will only build character for the system...for the judiciary. And I think they should just persevere and do what they always believed was right and I think they ll prevail in the end. Ok. Now I m also wondering...you came in at the LRC at a very crucial time in its history because it was hot on the heels of the Rikhoto and Komani rulings. Did you ever feel even as a law student that...was your sense that law could be used as an instrument of social change or did you feel that given that the situation, that under Apartheid, Parliament was supreme? These legal victories could in fact be easily over turned but in fact they weren t so where were you lodged in that kind of debate? Look, I was under no illusion that the task would be an extremely difficult one and the games would be very slight and few, and far and few between. But I was resolute in my belief that it would make a difference. Even though it didn t necessarily resonate throughout the larger South African society, it made a difference to the people for whom the work was being done. And that surely had to carry for something because, you know, they would in turn tell their children about it. And I know how I was influenced by stories that my dad would tell me when he came from work. So I think even if we just elevated social consciousness of community, then we had achieved something. If it had gone further than that and made a real difference in the sense that it had, you know, then it was such a tremendous victory that I think the victory itself would be a reward for all the hard work that had been put in by so many people. You also have had such good fortune to be working at the Legal Resources Centre with all these brilliant lawyers and I m wondering if I had to ask you about sharing a memory, who would it be about? Whether it s a client or a particular person you worked with...a lawyer? Something that you treasure as part of your LRC experience?

11 11 You know, there were many events but I think probably the events that come to mind would have been those lunchtime meetings with all those people sitting around the table and debating various points. I mean it was just so illuminating. And with Arthur (Chaskalson) there and Felicia (Kentridge), Morris Zimmerman, Mohamed Navsa. It was...it was just an exhilarating experience every time I sat in those meetings. You know, you would just go away there with almost a life-time of knowledge in one afternoon, so I think those meetings, and the one-on-one discussions with Morris Zimmerman, I think, and the insightful guidance that I got from Arthur as well Felicia...and then just also, I think, ultimately that family feeling that one would get. Everybody just cared so much about each other. And that was apparent at those year end functions at Felicia s place. Bernard, I ve asked you a range of questions and I m wondering whether there s something I ve neglected to ask you which you feel ought to be included as part of your LRC Oral History interview? Phew nothing specifically now. I m sure maybe if something comes to mind then I can...slip it in when you... Send you the transcript? Send me the transcript, ya. Bernard, I really appreciate you coming in and taking the time to participate in this project It s really it s been my pleasure, thanks.

12 Bernard Matheson Name Index Budlender, Geoff, 3, 4, 7, 8 Bizos, George, 8 Carolus, Cheryl, 2 Chaskalson, Arthur, 3, 9, 11 Duarte, Jesse, 2 Hathorn, Moray, 6 Jacobs, Ignatius, 2 Kentridge, Felicia, 3, 11 Koornhof, Piet, 2 Madlala, Pinky, 3 ( Matheson, Patrick, 1 Navsa, Mohamed, 2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 11 Nel, Deon, 8 Nupen, Charles, 3, 4 Palmer, Cecilie, 3, 4 Pretorius, Paul, 3 Reed, Derek, 5 Smit, Vesta, 3, 4 Smuts, Jan (General), 1 Tip, Karel, 3 Van Wyk, Christopher, 2 Zimmerman, Morris, 3, 7, 8, 11 Graham, 4 12

13 13 Legal Resources Centre Oral History Project PUBLISHER: Publisher:- Historical Papers, William Cullen Library, University of the Witwatersrand Location:- Johannesburg 2012 LEGAL NOTICES: Copyright Notice: All materials on the Historical Papers website are protected by South African copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, or otherwise published in any format, without the prior written permission of the copyright owner. Disclaimer and Terms of Use: Provided that you maintain all copyright and other notices contained therein, you may download material (one machine readable copy and one print copy per page) for your personal and/or educational non-commercial use only. People using these records relating to the archives of Historical Papers, The Library, University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg, are reminded that such records sometimes contain material which is uncorroborated, inaccurate, distorted or untrue. These digital records are digital copies of electronic documents and the information contained herein is obtained from sources believed to be accurate and reliable, Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand has not independently verified their content. Consequently, the University is not responsible for any errors or omissions and excludes any and all liability for any errors in or omissions from the information on the website or any related information on third party websites accessible from this website. DOCUMENT DETAILS: Document ID:- AG Document Title:- Bernard Matheson erview Author:- Legal Resources Centre South Africa (LRC) Document Date:- 2008