Martie Stander Constitutional Court Oral History Project 16 th November 2011

Transcription

1 Martie Stander Constitutional Court Oral History Project 16 th November 2011 Martie, welcome to the Constitutional Court Oral History Project. I ve heard so much about you from Justice Arthur Chaskalson and others, so I m really looking forward to the opportunity of interviewing you. Oh, thank you, Roxsana. Martie, I wondered whether we could start this oral history interview by if you could talk about your early childhood memories, where you were born, where you grew up, and what was it like living in South Africa at that time? Roxsana, thank you for the opportunity. I really think I m honoured to be interviewed. But, I was born and brought up in Pretoria, I was a Pretoria girl. I was born 6 th November, And,, my father has standard four, and my mother,, standard six. I think if you put it into grade, it s grade six and grade eight. So they weren t very educated people, and they never paid any interest in politics. Especially my father., I ve been in a school where they provide for lunchtime. They brought milk or cool-drink for children to drink. So we weren t poor, but we definitely weren t part of the middle class. I matriculated in For my parents it was quite an achievement to have a child with matric. And, yes, unfortunately, or fortunately, I met my late husband the father of the children, while I was at school, so a year after matric, you know, we got married. We went to a place called Kleinsee in Namaqualand. And, you know, somehow I feel very sorry that I missed out on all the politics at that time. Because in Kleinsee, only on a Sunday we got a newspaper, the Sunday paper, and if you didn t run early to the shop, you didn t get the paper. So, ja, we lived in Kleinsee until 1980, and it was only after 1980 that we came conscious about what happened in South Africa. So, you know, very often you think people doesn t believe you, but we were very ignorant on what happened in Soweto. We had our maid, which we always treated as a human being, and ja then I started at the Con no, I started at the Magistrate s Court in Because while I was in Kleinsee, I really have this passion to go into the legal field. So I started with a first year course at Unisa, so I was kind of prepared to start at the Magistrate s Court. At that time, ooh, the Department of Justice was such one of the cream departments of all departments. Because firstly your name got onto a waiting list, and when there was a vacant position, you know, you could fill that position. So I was very honoured and happy to get into that department. So I worked there for three years, at the Magistrate s Court. I was transferred to National Office, which was also kind of an honour, because the inspectors went around to do their inspections at the offices. This is what I was made to believe, they take the good staff and they transfer them to National Office. I m sure. 1

2 So I worked in National Office for one year. Then I was transferred to Bloemfontein. And from there I start in the High Court as a registrar. I was in Bloemfontein for about, I think, another four years. Then I was transferred to Pretoria High Court. And in 1994, it came as a shock because you heard about the new court that started in Johannesburg, but we didn t really have the details, what it entails, who will be there. You know, it was just rumours. And I was shocked when they came to me, the manager of my court, when he came to me and he asked whether I will be interested to be transferred to the Constitutional Court., At that time it was quite necessary for me to make a change. And I really you know, I wanted to come. It was then I heard that two of my colleagues, t refused to come to Johannesburg. I don t think it s refusing to come to this court, it was just Johannesburg, you know, was something that you just pass around and not coming to. Especially if you come from Pretoria and Bloemfontein, Standerton. So ja, I said I was willing And that was about the Friday, I need to start on the Monday. So there was no time to prepare, to ask what is happening. They told me at Pretoria Court, I can take a lift with one of the security officers on a Monday. And as we got to this court, I met Sheryl Luthuli, and Ouma Mahlabaku. We were the only three that started that day, apart from security. Security was here for about a week. We didn t have a chair to sit on, nothing. So there was really it was a bare building (laughs) with partitions, no furniture, and ja, it was I don t know, it was the strangest place to be. There was no judge to welcome us or, it was just the three of us. But we realised it s serious. We have to start to put up an office. I can t really remember all the days and what happened, but I think it was the most exciting time for me. Because National Office got involved, and they start to deliver furniture and the budget I mean, if you think about the budget today is in the fifty million, but that time I don t even think we had a budget of two million. It was kind of difficult, you didn t know where to start. Although I was a relief officer in various components of the High Court, I never act as head of an office. So, ooh, in the evenings I had to do some homework, I had to speak to colleagues. It was really a hard time. We came in the morning, six o clock we were at the court. Because of the traffic from Pretoria. And I didn t leave before six in the evening. So it was a busy time to get to know what streams you have to allow. We need staff to do the HR, we need staff to do finances. Fortunately for Sheryl (Luthuli) Sheryl (Luthuli) also didn t really have lots of experience in the admin. She was excellent, you know, with the library., It was just difficult times. And then we met with Justice Chaskalson, and you know, maybe I have to tell you first, coming from a High Court,, you respect the justices. When I started at the High Court, whenever you walk into a judge s office, you never turn your back on him. So it was sometimes awkward, you walk forward, you meet him at his desk, and you kind of reverse back, and you bow and you go out. So this is the era I was used to. And the Judge was a very important person. When I got to the Constitutional Court and it was a whole process for them, how they got appointed. I was involved with the preparation of the venue and also to inform the justices. So when they were appointed, I think they were also very informal and didn t know what to expect from the staff. You know, because 2

3 Justices said, please call me Kate (O Regan), or call me Yvonne (Mokgoro). And coming from this side, I could never, I could never. I can t hardly speak English in their presence. It was so awesome. You don t have to bow all the time but you know that you cannot be familiar with them. So this is what I can remember early days Martie, I wonder if I could take you right back. You said some very interesting things and I would like more elaboration... You mentioned how growing up in South Africa, not really knowing about what was going on in the country, and then you mentioned really coming to hear about things during the 1980s. And the 1980s was really a horrific time in this country, because there were so many detentions, there were bombings, and there was a lot going on. And I wondered whether at that stage, you were concerned for your safety, or you were concerned about being from a particular group and what that might mean,? Well, you know, we grow up being Nats, if you vote, you vote for the National Party. So we were very, very Afrikaans. But I ve never I don t know if we were just so concerned with family life, that we never I was never scared. Never. Even if you hear these things. I don t think we heard many stories in detail. From the 1980s, although things happened, the worse was over, because it happens between the seventies and the eighties. And I must also add, at that time in Kleinsee, we didn t have TV. I remember TV came out in 73 (television came to South Africa in 1976), when we came to Gauteng to visit the family, they watch everything on TV. It was a frustration for us because we wanted their attention, because you re going back. I didn t know what was going on. And if you hear, you think, agh, it s for other people to give attention to. It wasn t for me, or for my family. I must honestly say, when I came to this court, I put so much effort in watching videos on political stories, and that was the way I learned to know who was (Walter) Sisulu, (Cyril) Ramaphosa and all these political leaders. And I was wondering, when 1990 arrived and when (F.W.) De Klerk made his famous speech on the 2 nd of February, and he spoke about the release of Nelson Mandela, etc, and then the actual experience of hearing about (Nelson) Mandela being released, I wondered how you experienced that in South Africa? You know, I think I was very honoured at that time. My belief is Christianity, and we didn t practise it before the time. But in 1994 I got divorced from the father of my children, and it was a terrible time because it was the first divorce in the family. A colleague of mine took me to a church, Hatfield Christian Church in Pretoria, and the really promote equality, and we re all the same, and we mustn t be scared, and we must pray. So I think my religion helps me not to fear. Also in that church, because I came from an NG background, where there weren t people of colour, it was only white people, but in this 3

4 particular church we were all colours. There were Coloureds, Indian, white people, black people, for me it was the first time, but honestly it helps me and I went out to my family to tell them, you know, we don t have to fear. So for myself, I was too much involved with my own pain at that stage, and also, you know, to become very religious, helped me a lot. It s interesting because it sounds like 1994 was a time of transition both personally, as well as in the country, and as well as your job. Very interesting Absolutely, absolutely. I m just curious, and perhaps I ve got this incorrect, so you can correct me, when you started the premises for the court wasn t actually here, they were in Braampark, is that correct? Correct, ja. Can you talk a little bit about your memories about Braampark? You know, it was quite small. I know Sheryl (Luthuli) will tell you more give you more details on the library, but there was a room smaller than this office, which was meant for the library. There were a couple of books, and we didn t this is when the architects came in and they wanted to know what our needs are, where will we put the general office to lodge the cases? You know, like my office was also a huge office; actually I shared a office with two of my clerks. And then they put up the court, and that was quite interesting because they wanted to have the Court kind of in a circle. And you know, to have the gallery at the back. I was really not involved with all those decisions, but you see all the things happen, and you know, when they have to choose the colours, the colours of the Justice s robes. Very interesting comments when they have to decide on the logo of the Court. So all these things I was wondering, Martie, it s interesting, you mentioned how coming from the High Court, where there s more formality, people wear a certain colour of gown, people address each other very deferentially. I wondered, coming to a Court where they wanted it to be a new Court with new rules in a way, and I wondered how you felt about this and what were the adjustments that you may have had to make? You know, firstly, being not informed, I need to attend courses on what is the Bill of Rights, and what was the Constitution all about. So that was also time consuming. And then when we had our first court case, we realised there was 4

5 little in place. You know, how do you do the court order? There were many cases that were just dismissed because the Constitutional Court for the public means, it can solve any of my problems. So all kinds of people with all kinds of problems came to the court. And they all needed our assistance. it was from fines on the road, maintenance, conflict, domestic problems, all kind of problems came to us. And for instance, when they decided on an order, Judge A will send an order in the format of Arial, or with more spaces, with different wording, than Judge B will send on another case and it will be in a different format. So it was really a teething problem, we had to go through all those teething processes to get to a template that everybody knows how to create an order. I was curious, you mentioned two of your colleagues at the High Court had turned down the job because probably it was based in Johannesburg, I wondered what made you decide that you would make that transition, because you were also undergoing other transitions, as well? The main reason was, I got divorced. And, that was the reason to just put different things in your life.. The other reason, I thought it could be a wonderful challenge.. And I think I was ready for new challenges in my life. And then the choice of this site which had been a former prison, and an infamous one as well, what did you think about the choice of the site? I think it was one of the best choices, because there were more than this one on the table. And although myself and Mr du Plessis, who was the Court Manager, we attend all the meetings, we were sitting at the back and just kept quiet, silently I wished for them to choose this place because there was a suggestion for Newtown, which was in town, and didn t say much to me. And then the other one was in Midrand. There was nothing. No history involved with Midrand. So this was the best place. You mentioned Mr du Plessis, and I m going to ask you about him because I know that the two of you worked really closely together, and wondered if you could share some memories and fond stories about your time together? At first I was appointed (at) head of office, and then the department decided to put court managers at each court. A Court Manager does more the administration support to the judiciary. So, I wasn t really aware that somebody else is coming. So one morning Mr du Plessis walked in, You will meet Mr du Plessis,, he had this big snor (moustache) and at National Office they call him snorre. And he was quite a big man, but with such a nice voice. Not soft voice, a loud voice, you hear when he talks. And funny enough, when he walks in, you are aware of his presence. (Mr. Danie) Du Plessis was really a remarkable person. And he was of the opinion that he is only a contract 5

6 worker and I m still there to do the case flow. So from day one,, we worked well together. Mr du Plessis was kind of the middleman between the justices and the admin, which was myself and the clerks. That time Mr du Plessis had about years of experience, in the department, so I learnt a lot from him. When he opened his mouth you can listen. So I really think he put many processes in place. Just before he came to the court, I y had to call on help and assistance. So one of the former Registrars from Johannesburg High Court, Mr Thys Lourens, and there was another one who came to assist me They were pensioners by that time, They came in to assist me with the admin.. When Mr du Plessis came, it was not necessary for them to stay on. So they went and, Mr du Plessis and I really worked hard as a team. Every morning we had our cup of coffee together with Sheryl (Luthuli), and that was the time when we shared little stories of the department and where we came from. Ja, that was very precious moments for us in the morning. And even today, management staff, has a cup of coffee every morning. Well before eight, but we have our cup of coffee. I m wondering, when I interviewed Arthur Chaskalson in 2008, he made a point of telling me about his memories about this room and there was a safe that was really big. And I wondered whether you could share that with me, because he mentioned you, as well? Shame, whenever I see him, after he retired, it s amazing how we remember that particular day., a whole force of security arrived at the court, with a truck, and they delivered three safes. And these safes was (were) so heavy that you have to place it on a pillar so that it doesn t cause any damage. One was placed in his office because of the pillar. And we didn t have anything to put in. You know, from experience I had in other courts, when you receive the warrant vouchers, you have to put that into a safe., Chief Justice Chaskalson didn t want to hear anything about the safe. He was so surprised about this safe in his office and we have to take it out. The same story happened with the fax machine, NIA came one day with a fax machine who nobody have access to you know, he said, no ways, nothing in this court is done in secret. We had to remove it. He was a wonderful man. And humble. You know, we wanted him to have the best of everything like furniture., but he turned it down, and he was just happy with what we had at that time. I don t think there can be somebody as humble as he. I m just wondering, Martie, the first Bench, I d really like you to talk about each one of them, and your memories of the first Bench of judges. So if you could you ve mentioned Arthur (Chaskalson), and I wondered whether you could talk about Ismail Mahomed and others, and your memories of them? I didn t get involved with Justices that closely We are the support, so whenever they need like furniture, cell phones, the car transport, salary queries, that was the only time that we really interact with them. But for 6

7 Justice O Regan, one thing I can say about her, if you walk into her office with a question, you walk out with a reply. She was not one that say(s), I ll come back to you. She knows, on the spot she ll give you a reply. Justice Mokgoro to me was like a friend. You know, when the Court started I always say we had to put nappies on for everyone. Everyone who comes to the Court, whether it was something for the Court to deal with or not, you will go the extra mile. We wanted to create that atmosphere of a people s court. So very often I had to go to Justice Mokgoro with nitty-gritties on complaints the public experienced. And she was always there to assist. Then of course Justice Sachs, oh, he was something else with his uniform, you know, always the long shirts, and again, you know, coming from where the justices are always clothed with ties and formal jacket, that to me was so refreshing,. He was in the art business, and I don t always know what the artist want to tell us. But when he tells you, you can see the picture. You know, he can really embroider with words. That I always remember. Then there was Justice Didcott, which we didn t have a relationship for long because he passed on. I can remembered he was really not demanding. Justice Langa, ah, he was always soft-hearted. Always want to make a joke, very dry jokes, I always have to think, is he serious now, or is it a joke? So Justice ja, he was also agh, you know, everyone, each one of them has something special on them. I know this is not a fair question but perhaps you can tell me whom you had a very close relationship with, that you felt you interacted with a lot or you felt extremely fond of? There was Justice Mahomed, but I think it s because (Ismail) Mahomed also came from Pretoria High Court. We did a few urgent applications together where I had to go to his house, so I think maybe just because I knew him beforehand, all of them Justice Ackermann, we were on the library committee together, but Ackermann, ooh, he was this competent judge, from the old era. So when you saw him, I was very nervous in his company. Wonderful, competent. Then there was who else was there? (Pius) Langa, I spoke about I did mention (John) Didcott. (Tholie) Madala, ah, Justice Madala was something else. And now I can say, because of my religion background, you know, (Tholie) Madala you can go to him, he ll always have a soft word, always speak of wisdom from his heart, you know, not always from his mind, but always from his heart. He was very soft spirit, you know. But all of them and you know when you read in the paper and you saw them on TV, every time you just realised, how did it happen that I become part of this family? The admiration that we have for them. And then all the visitors start to come and visit the court. And it was the Queen of Netherlands,, we had the parliamentary people from the UK. And you sat in the presence of all these people. Then you realise, oh, you don t know how you got here. I was also wondering what your memories were of the Inauguration? 7

8 Ja, that was quite something, because I was very involved with arrangements. It happened in the Civic Theatre and we had to draft all these invitation list. I worked with Justice Mokgoro late evenings on the Inauguration and you wanted to invite all your colleagues and you know you can t fit them in because it s all the VIPs firstly and then Registrars from other courts. But that was a lovely morning. And I have this picture where I was also sitting where the law clerks normally sit. Oh, and I treasure that picture. On the Bench we have Madiba (Nelson Mandela), we have, at that time the Chief Justice Corbett, and all of our justices, Justice Chaskalson, and the first set of law clerks that start at the Court. So that s a very precious photo. I d like to see that at some time. I will definitely, definitely let you have it. And I was also wondering, in terms of events, what are the key events that happened in the Court that you might remember, whether it was the artwork launch, or retirements, I wonder whether you could talk about some of those events and your memories of being present at those events? I think definitely it was the inauguration of this building. You know, because we worked on this project for many, many years, attend meetings, came for walks on this premises, and then we bring the staff and other people. Many other things were interesting like the launch of the library, the launch of the website. We had the launch of SAFLII. They were all very interesting. But I think the inauguration for this Court was the highlight because this is your permanent home, all the speeches we had, ran over a couple of days. It was not just one event, It was over a period. It was sad, that some of the justices weren t part of it anymore, if you think of (John) Didcott and Justice Mahomed. And we also lost staff members, which was one of our secretaries, and one of the Registrar s Clerks. But, you know, in general, that was my highlight. I m also wondering, at a certain point the judges started leaving and some of them passed away, and I wondered what you mentioned, for example, Ismail Mahomed and being close to him, having come from the same background, I m wondering whether you could speak to your memories about some of the losses, and also some of the good experiences? Ja. Justice Mahomed, he became I think afterwards they called him the President of the Supreme Court of Appeal (Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Appeals). He left for Bloemfontein, but he came back during recess periods to Braamfontein. We interact with him all the time, so he didn t leave the Constitutional Court and went away. You know, was still part of us. I was fortunate enough to be a very close friend of Annette (Vosloo), who was his secretary at that time, He became ill, and Annette (Vosloo) always call a few 8

9 of our staff members and we used to pray for him and try to encourage him during that time. And, ja, it was very sad when he passed away. Justice Didcott, I didn t know him that well. But his family, they set-up a bench outside in the garden and they put the ashes there. Now very often he s using the library without making an appointment during the night (laughs). There were two colleagues that passed on, Ouma Mahlabaku came from the High Court, Johannesburg and she worked with us for a couple of years, She became unfortunately she misbehaved sometimes so we managed for her to be transferred to Regional Office, We always kept our relationship, and then she passed away. What was her role, what was Ouma s (Mahlabaku s) role? She was one of the Registrar s Clerks. She worked in the general office where they received the documents and When you say, she misbehaved, I wondered what you meant? Oh, okay, I think she had also personal problems. She was absent from office quite some time.. Later on you realise it was because of the illness. I also wondered, Martie, what your experience was having, in addition to the justices, also having law clerks? And I wondered whether you could talk about your memories of some of them, because I know that even now you have really close relationships with them, you make a point of getting to know the law clerks. I wondered what your experiences and memories are of the first set? You know, it was very difficult in Braampark, because the justice s law clerks and secretaries were sitting in the new part of the building. The administration was accommodated in the older part of the building. So you really have to make an effort to go through to the other side to interact with the people. When the first crowd of law clerks came in, they some of them were attorneys for quite some time. I can remember Justice Sach s law clerk was a lecturer at Wits University. And, so they weren t your students that left school last year and this is their first job. So they were competent people. I m sure they assist the justices at that time, which was necessary. So although we got to know them (pause in recording) So these experienced law clerks, they were friends, but not on the level that we get to know law clerks in this building. When we moved to this building 9

10 there were so much interaction between admin and the legal section. And also, because the law clerks come to the general office more often, and we had these s that s going amongst all of us, I think there s a better relationship with law clerks that s been appointed from this Court. I also remembered you mentioning having foreign law clerks and some of the difficulties with the initial set of foreign law clerks, and I wondered whether you could talk about that? Ja, we had law clerks, now being a boere meisie (farm girl), and the foreign law clerks come from the US, they for us maybe it s not the case, but for us they were very demanding. Because the software was not as what they re used to. And agh, little complaints. You know, they expected coffee and tea needed to be provided for them. Which, we worked from a budget and in our department, you know, you bring your own. We considered them as arrogant, but when you get to know them, you realise that they weren t arrogant, they were just maybe used to a more professional environment than I don t know, I don t want to say that what we are used to, but, ja, in the beginning it was difficult to work with all the foreigners. You couldn t follow the accent all the time, and but at the end, I can promise you, when they leave, we had become good friends. And I m also wondering, since then, you ve had law clerks from different countries, sometimes from Europe and Africa, and I wondered whether there were any in particular that stood out; that you developed a good relationship or a close relationship with? You know, strange enough, I find that the law clerks coming from Africa, are very humble and they are very eager to learn. And personally I think I ve got better relationships with the ones that come from Africa. Ja, it s difficult to say, because you don t want they re all wonderful, but I think because the African ones are more humble,, we get on better. Martie, at some point, you started the archives, and I wondered whether you could talk a little bit about that, how that came into being, some of the materials that it holds? You know, firstly, in our department, if you misbehaved or messed up somewhere, they send you to the archives. So archives to me was a very negative thing. If people want you to do anything in the archives, it means, you know, they don t really put trust in you. But I realised one day, we don t have any archival material, and I asked the national archivist it was Dr Dominy whether they had courses. So I went to a course. When I came back I was so inspired, because then I realised if you don t have an archive, you lose everything. I really put an effort in,, with everything, every meeting, all 10

11 the agendas, which we were supposed to keep, but, you know, after one year people get rid of it, and we decided not to dispose of any of our material. So I start putting up,, I won t say it s a proper archive but there s enough what happened,, enough documents to prove the meetings and events. So I m wondering, when each of the Justices started leaving over time, how did you manage what did you collect from them, and what have you managed to keep? Oh, you know, this is actually very sad because the things we wanted to keep, more personal things, for example, what they did before they came to court, we don t have that type of material. Which I think now with the start of the Office of the Chief Justice, we will have something in place to make sure that we build the history of the OCJ. Because in my mind I always wanted to start with what they call memory boxes., where you will find all the speeches of the justices, whatever they do, when they go out to lecture, to collect these things with photographs and to put it in memory boxes. I must honestly say I didn t get the full joy from the secretaries. We ve been through it quite a few times, I can promise you, before I go on pension, I will definitely get this memory boxes going. The same with the law clerks,, I had this suggestion, because law clerks want to give something to the court., maybe they can give you a what do you call this plakker boek (sticker book) Year book? Something like a year book. What they did because they re very involved with community services. And they also had their little goodbye events and hello events, and just to end off the term and to start the new term., really to promote this idea with them, to give us something at the end of the year, and keep it in the archive, and when I don t know if you know about the alumni? Yes, the law clerks. when they have their annual meeting or every second year, to bring out all these things and put it on exhibit., in that way one can keep contact with all of them. And it s so nice. personally I feel so proud when you go to court and you see counsel stood up and he or she used to be one of the law clerks in court. Or you hear about the director of the Legal Centre, and you know that person used to be a law clerk. So, ja, at the moment the archive is not what I want it to be. I did attend a knowledge management course and I really realise,, if you don t keep all these things, especially now with the establishment of the new OCJ, I spoke to Mr (Jake) Jacobs and I said, please, we have to keep all these things together. Twenty years down the line our grandchildren want to know, how did it happen? What was the reason behind? Because even with the start of this Court, we don t have enough 11

12 material like where did it start, whose brainchild was it, agh ja, whose idea was it? We know about the competition on this building, the architects that was involved, but I don t think we ve saved enough documents. So hopefully this oral history would be a good starting point to find out more about all these things. Absolutely. I think you re doing a wonderful job to keep this together. Thank you, Martie. And I m wondering, Martie, when Arthur (Chaskalson) retired, what are your memories of that event? We had an event in court and everybody wanted a seat We had a small event afterwards, but for me it was not good enough. I would have preferred a big event, you know. But, I think this was due to budget constraints and knowing Justice Chaskalson, he doesn t want too much attention on himself. But that was a sad day for me, I cried through all the speeches, because everybody just have good things to say about him. And ja, for me it was a sad occasion, but it was good the idea that he will have a chamber still in the court and from time to time he will come to the court. So it s not a farewell, but, ja and it was also to say welcome to Justice Langa,, we all know he also did a wonderful job. Absolutely. I m also wondering, there was a retirement party for the four Justices and I wondered whether you could talk about Albie (Sachs), Kate (O Regan), Yvonne (Mokgoro)? Oh, that was fun. That was really fun, because we did have a budget so we could make it special. Justice van der Westhuizen, he s our social judge. he was the chairperson of the committee who arranged for this function. I don t know if you ve seen pictures, what the foyer looked like, with the round tables, and it was all black and silver, and glass. It was really a larney (meaning posh) event. And we had Yende Pretty (Yende) with us. She won a competition in Austria. And she s a musician? Yes, ja, she sang a couple of songs, and I m telling you, that was the highlight of the evening. And ja, all the VIPs again. That was an excellent function. Then we also had the court procedure where they have to say their goodbyes. Justice Mokgoro and (Kate) O Regan was emotional on both functions. what was also very special for me when the staff said goodbye to them; I arranged for Malie Kelly to come and sang (sing) songs to them. And, you know, we 12

13 didn t discuss it beforehand, I just said, you know, this is the Chief Justice, these are the other justices, and the songs she chose for each one of them were spot on., the song she sang for Chief Justice Langa was, he carry me on his shoulders. I can remember the one for Justice Sachs was just Simply the Best. so it was a really nice morning. And ja, I m very sad because these are people who started with me, and then they go on, I m still here. Sheryl (Luthuli) and I always say, especially with the law clerks, you know, when they came around, they say, are you still here? And we wish to say, no, it s time to move on. but you re so close to retirement you can t go somewhere else. And also it s wonderful to be part of this. What makes it wonderful, Martie? What are your experiences of working at the Court? What are the frustrations and what are the positive things? You know, frustration, there will always be frustration. Sometimes you think the justices are too demanding. Then you only realise that this is why you re here. You are there to support them. eresting because of the court cases that comes to this Court, and you know it makes a difference to the Constitution, because it protects the Constitution. I think what makes it different from other Courts, this is a people s court. Apart from the fact that it s a beautiful building and there s lots of spaces, I think when people come to this Court, now that you went through all this experience, you know, along the years, to be able to send them to other Chapter 9 bodies. you really feel you make a difference. You can talk to these people and you can assist them, which wasn t there at first because we didn t even know about all the Chapter 9 bodies, what their functions are, where they are accommodated. Sometimes they didn t have the budget to assist people. But ja, knowledge makes a difference. It s nice to meet all the law clerks, like I said, and they go away and they can make a difference. I m also wondering, Martie, you said you had an interest in the legal background, some of the cases that have gone through the Constitutional Court have dealt with very important issues, and I wondered you keeping track of those, what is a case that you feel very moved by in terms of its outcome and the issue at hand? You know, I can t remember the case now, I mean, you must forgive me about this, but there was this adoption of a baby, of parents that took the baby to America (Minister for Welfare and Population Development v Fitzpatrick and Others ). And all went well for all of them, only to receive about a year later that that parents got divorced. it was sad that they went through so many court cases, and they won at the end, they went to America, people on that side, their name was on one or other monument. I can get you the details on that one. And then only to hear from one of the counsel that the parents got divorced. That to me was very sad. The Certification of the Constitution (Certification of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 13

14 1996), oh, I m telling you, we had tons of documents. I m not lying. People from National Office came to assist. We had a very special machine, a copy machine, to make the copies. You know, documents were stacked all over. But it was interesting interesting times. You know, all the provinces were involved. Ja, that was an outstanding I m wondering, Martie, the other thing that was interesting was that, having come from a High Court background, you obviously had colleagues in the Justice Department or the system, what were some of the criticisms you may have heard about the Court? Ja, let me think I don t think there was any. Because it was new you know, it s not like the Equality Court, or a domestic court, it was a Court that was different from other courts. Completely different. I think the colleagues that refused to come, they had regrets for sure that they didn t take up the position, but surely I don t think there was critics, no. And I wondered, when you mentioned at some point, that you liked the idea of having a challenge, and so you took this position. Have there been challenges? Have you enjoyed your time here, or have you felt in some ways frustrated? Do you feel that you ve reached the ceiling? I wondered what your experience is at the moment? I must honestly say, as a Registrar in other courts, you had more discretion. The only discretion I have in this Court really is with taxations. Because as the cases are lodged in the general office, we just have to see whether it adheres to the court rule, and then we distribute it. So you re not part and parcel of that. In other courts you compile the court roll., in this Court it depends on the Chief Justice. That was a little bit of a disappointment but maybe also for the better because,, justices as a team make decisions on that one. Then there was other duties that was allocated to me, like the safekeeping of the all original Acts. All the Acts from various provinces, the signed Acts. We are keeping them here. We have it for safekeeping. That s interesting because you also interact with the various provinces. like the programme of the law clerks, it s part of my stream, and the archives, which I just say, that to me is a challenge for the future. And I also know that at some point Mr du Plessis left, and I wondered whether you could talk about that departure because you were very close to him, and then also the incoming new manager of the Court? Mr du Plessis signed a contract for five years, and you know, he was also driving between Pretoria and Johannesburg. So at the end of the five years I m sure the justices would have loved to keep him on, but he decided it was 14

15 time to move on. Then there was a court manager, Phindiwe Sangweni, she was a lady, and also an admitted attorney. Now it s difficult when people are not part and parcel of the department, so she also had to go through huge adjustments in the department, and especially in the Court. She wasn t here for long, for two years, then Vick Misser came. And Vick (Misser) is also somebody with a drive, you know, he put I m not sure where the idea started that we have to start the strategic streams, but Vick (Misser) took it and he ran with it, and that was the best thing that happened to this Court, because you have your various streams, which make a better administration component and When you said streams, what do you mean exactly? Okay, the streams is we start off with a strategic area, which Vick (Misser)is the leader of. Then mine is the case flow with various programmes, and then we have the administration auxiliary, which is your HR provisioning, security, IT, and of course we have the library stream. And that s much better because in other courts the registrar used to do the finances, the HR, everything, and there was not specialised direction. I also noticed that increasingly you have publications, court publications, that are very beautifully done as well Right, I must say, Sheryl (Luthuli) has to get all the credit for the library. She did a great job. And also with Justice O Regan Justice O Regan, and Justice Ackermann, they were a great team building up this library. I wondered, Martie, if I have neglected to ask you anything that you feel ought to be included and that you d like to share? Not really, I can t think of anything right now. And I wondered whether we could end the interview, if you could talk about a particular memory you might have that s very special to you of your time at the court? You know, that s really a difficult question because my time agh, there s times that you say you wish you re old enough to just retire. But realistically what will you do at home? This is great to be part, and I think especially now with the establishment of the OCJ. And the judiciary will have a new face. And, ja, I want to be part of that before I go. 15

16 Thank you so much, Martie, for sharing your memories and for really welcoming everyone who comes into this court with such grace and charm. Thank you so much. Thank you, thank you. 16

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