Catrin Verloren van Themaat LRC Oral History Project 3 rd July 2008

Transcription

1 1 Catrin Verloren van Themaat LRC Oral History Project 3 rd July 2008 This is an interview with Catrin Verloren Van Themaat, did I get that right? And it s the 3 rd of July (2008) in the afternoon. Catrin, thank you very much for agreeing to participate in the Legal Resources Oral History Project, we really appreciate it, and as you know this is really an initiative by SALS. Pleasure. Thank you. I m wondering whether you could start by recounting your early childhood memories, growing up in South Africa, your experiences, and what was the trajectory that actually led you into working for a Public erest Law organisation like the LRC? Well, I was born in Harrismith, which is a small little dorpie in the Free State and I m Afrikaans-speaking, so, you know, I grew up in a Afrikaans household, went to an Afrikaans school. My father at that time was an attorney in Harrismith... Oh, right....but then he moved to the University of the North, in the then Pietersburg, and started teaching there, so that s where I went to school. I grew up, I think, being aware of the stark realities of South Africa, because my father was at Turfloop at the time when those realities were very stark. So I was always aware of the differences between people, and how people were treated and, questioned the fact.why it was necessary for instance, for a university to be created for black people specifically, as as opposed to having a university where all South Africans could be educated.. Also.my mother s brother is Beyers Naude, so through his influence, I think, I was maybe more aware.of the political reality of South Africa, more so than maybe many of the other children who went to school with me. So I think I always had a feeling that what I wanted to do one day, was to try and address these inequalities, and I think that s what led me to end up at the Legal Resources Centre. I ve been here now for a very long time Right...to take you a little bit back...so when you were growing up, what was the political situation, especially when your father was teaching at Turfloop, were there riots...did you understand what was going on in the country, and especially having an uncle who s Beyers Naude, in your household, was there talk about politics...? Yes, it was very openly discussed always We might sometimes have had...differences of opinion but, you know, it wasn t something that wasn t addressed, and it wasn t something that I wasn t aware of. And yes, there were riots at the University during that time., We didn t live on the campus, we lived in Pietersburg, now Polokwane, itself, so I wasn t, so directly aware, but I always heard from my dad what was going on.

2 2 What was your father s impression of South Africa and the inequalities and teaching in a black university, etc, what was the discussion about that? He really had a heart for people who were treated unfairly, and that is why he gave up his practice in Harrismith and started teaching at the University of the North, on the one hand. On the other hand, he was a white South African male. He was born in Holland but he grew up here. I think he considered himself to be fully South African. And our lifestyle reflected the benefits of being white and living the life of luxury, compared to black South Africans at the time. And on the other hand, having an uncle who s Beyers Naude and also so political, how did that gel in terms of your own personal development? Yes, it was interesting to grow up in the time as the niece of Oom Bey, because it was at the time when people were incredibly aware of people like Beyers Naude and considered him to be a complete traitor. So even at school, even though I wasn t.his daughter and actually he was living in Johannesburg and I was in Polokwane, it still...was discussed in households, and kids would say, you know: be careful of her, she is related to that terrorist or communist, Beyers Naude. He often came to visit us and, you know, then had sometimes heated discussions with my family but, you know, there was always an understanding and a support, I think, of what he was doing, from my parents side, even though they didn t always completely agree with him. Right. What about you how did you feel about having like a range of opinion, and where were you positioned in that range of opinion in a way? Well, I think, maybe now in hindsight, I always really looked up to Oom Bey and I always thought what he was doing was amazing because you really had a feeling that he stood very alone often, and was shunned by his his fellow Afrikaners. So I think,.i always really looked up to him and had great admiration for him, and I think that had an effect on how I decided to live my life....you mentioned in school people were saying: be careful of her, etc, did you feel shunned in that way, did you feel like you were sort of somehow being ostracised for someone in your family who had a different kind of opinion? A little bit, you know, but it did not bother me too much,.i was quite happy to often be on my own and just do my own thing,.i suppose at times it had a little bit of an effect on me, but I can t remember being devastated by it, I was more a little bit amused because, you know, (laughs), as a child I couldn t quite understand why people thought like that of this really nice, loving man that my uncle was, you know? I always perceived him to be a really warm, loving, supportive, kind of person.

3 3 So after school what did you do...where did you go to university, etc? I started off studying music at the University of Stellenbosch... Wow!...and then after a year decided, I was going to lose my love of music if I continue studying it, so... (laughter)....were you playing an instrument? Yes, I played piano and organ, and then later on cello... Wonderful! I still really love music and I think it was the right decision not to... Continue?...continue studying it. And then, after that, I went to the University of Port Elizabeth where my dad, after he retired, was teaching and.i did my undergrad there, then went back to Stellenbosch for a year and did my post grad library qualification and then went on to UCT and did Honours in literature. I also did further postgrad studies at UNISA and UJ so I almost covered all the universities in South Africa (laughs). So, your principal education background is really in Library Sciences? Yes. Ok. Why that in particular? I always loved reading and I think that was just a natural outcome of me having always my nose in books, so... Right. So, once you finished off the library education, etc, where did you work first? I started off working in a public library in Cape Town, and only lasted three months because it was a little bit boring., What was interesting about it was that you really got to meet a vast amount of different personalities in a public library, from little old ladies coming to get their romantic novels, to homeless people spending their days in

4 4 the warmth of the library so from that point of view it was interesting. But then, from there I went to the music library at UCT. At the time I was involved with someone who didn t want to to go to the army, so we left South Africa and went to Holland. I was in Holland for five years. What period was that? It was from 1985 till 1990; I came back just before Mandela was released.,. In Holland I worked at a donor organisation, it s called NOVIB, a Dutch organisation for development aid. I started off being a volunteer there and then, through a huge amount of luck I got a permanent position there When I came back I started looking for a job. I thought I would go back to some library position in Cape Town, but via, via, I heard that the LRC was looking for a librarian for three months, at the time, to computerise their library. My father actually at some point worked with Geoff (Budlender) on one of his cases, so I knew a little bit about the LRC So I applied and got the position. I thought I will come for three months and then some position will come up in Cape Town in those three months. I came for three months and really enjoyed it. The three months became six months, and became nine months, and now (laughter) it is eighteen years that I ve been here. That s incredible, that s incredible. So in those eighteen years, working in the library I m wondering what...what are some of the key tasks that you ve been having to do, because from what I can understand you do a lot of the research on the cases, and I d really like it if you could talk a bit about that, the types of cases that you have to research, etc? Yes, you know, that, for me, has been the wonderful thing about being at the LRC, is that you actually really feel involved in the work. I think often a librarian is sitting in the library and cataloguing books and doing those kinds of things, and on some level dealing with the public, but very much on the level of the user wanting specific information and that s where your responsibility ends. My experience at the LRC has been that it s, team work, you don t feel yourself to be the librarian who s aware of a case, but you are a little bit sidelined. You feel part of a team and work as a team. There s so many cases that stand out, but I remember the very first ones. When I started here, Arthur (Chaskalson) was still the National Director, and Geoff (Budlender) was Director of Johannesburg Office, and I remember Arthur (Chaskalson) working on the State versus Rudman case, which was a case dealing with the right to legal representation for unrepresented accused. And I just remember thinking: my goodness, what a wonderful way of working. Because I think all of us in our own way were involved in that case, you know, from Arthur (Chaskalson), to the attorneys, to the candidate attorneys, to the secretaries, to the librarians, and we each had our own portion to do and to me, it was just incredibly exciting working like that and so much feeling part of a team. And I remember a couple of us left very early in the morning and dashed through to Bloemfontein, where the case was being heard in the the Supreme Court of Appeal, You were really involved up to that point where you really felt: I don t want to miss being in court, because I really need to see how

5 5 this pans out. So that was one of the cases that stands out. Another case, from my early time at the LRC that stands out, was the Springs swimming pool case, which was a case that started because someone came to us and said: the Springs public swimming pool is closed because the Separate Amenities Act just got repealed, and therefore they decided that, rather than to allow black people to use the pool they re going to close the facilities altogether. Mahomed Navsa argued that case and, you know, each person in the LRC has completely their own personality. Arthur (Chaskalson) I remember, with the (Rudman case) was very, reserved, yet everything was meticulously planned and everything was intellectually, perfectly worked out. And Mahomed (Navsa) again also got the entire LRC involved, but he would be sitting in the library and we would all be scurrying around trying to find whatever he was looking for, or debating legal principles. So those were, I think, from my first year, those were the two cases that I can remember that stands out. Sometimes, working in that way where you involve everybody in the organisation can be quite chaotic, what do you think makes it not chaotic, what do you think makes it work at the LRC, or what has made it work so far for you, in terms of getting everyone involved? Well, I think it is that people really want to be involved, on the one hand, particularly those years, everyone felt so strongly about wanting a particular result and wanting to change all these things that was so unfair in the past and that could now be changed, because, you know, when I started here it was just when things were beginning to change in South Africa. And I think sometimes it was maybe a little bit chaotic, I don t think you can completely avoid a little bit of chaos at times when, you know, if things have to happen and all these things were always quite urgent and last minute as well. So I think, it maybe was a little bit chaotic at times, but I think it still worked because people really had the commitment to make it work, and everyone was just prepared to put up with whatever chaos was going on and just do what they had to do. In eighteen years, organisations undergo huge changes and also in this country there s been an enormous change from 1990 to now. So I m wondering whether you could talk a bit about the changes you ve noted during your eighteen years that the organisation has undergone, because you had the privilege of working with Arthur (Chaskalson) and then he left, Geoff (Budlender) left, Arthur (Chaskalson) s back a bit, but there ve been different directors, and so the organisation takes on a different personality each time. I m wondering what have been some of the challenges and what have been some of the nice things as well, about working in an organisation that s undergone so much change? You know, I worked with Arthur (Chaskalson) for a very short period, he left shortly after I started, but I was always amazed at how he looked as if he didn t notice anything, but he just so completely knew exactly what was going on in the organisation, and with everyone in the organisation and could, in a very calm way deal with whatever problem arised (?arose). There are strong personalities at the LRC and I don t think it s always easy, as a National Director, to keep everyone going. And he just, in a very calm and collected way, managed to keep everything on track. And then Geoff (Budlender) became National Director, and Mahomed (Navsa) was

6 6 our Johannesburg Office Director, and you know, every time a new director comes, it s true, things are different.. Sure so how was it different under Mahomed for example? Well, I think Mahomed has a wonderful way of getting people involved, but it was, you know, it was a very come on, guys, don t sit there and do nothing, He had a bit more of a confrontational way of getting people involved, but...but I think I almost learnt most about legal research, almost all I know I learnt from Mahomed. Because he just,.wouldn t take it if you said: I couldn t find anything. He would just demand that you did and he would sit with you and say: this is how you will do it, but you will do it, and you will find it, and I need it now, and do it. (Laughs). I have good memories of the time he was here. During that time National Office moved to Braamfontein so we were a bit distant from National Office then.. Right. Was that difficult, that kind of moving and having the LRC separate, because now it s back together again...? And now it s back together. Yes I think, there are ups and downs in both those scenarios. I think, in a way, the Johannesburg Office had the feeling that maybe they didn t have enough of their own identity with National Office in the same building and the way I remember it that was the reason why National Office then decided to move. And I think on some levels it was a good thing, and I can see that for other reasons it makes sense to be together. So there was also a time when Bongani (Majola) became the Director and then Odette (Geldenhuys) was the Deputy Director, I wondered whether you could talk a bit about that because I think that was a real time of transition for the organisation. There was also kind of lots of movements and changes such as time sheets and organisational management, etc, I m wondering how that impacted on people working here? Yes I think maybe I wasn t that aware of all these changes because I think it affected the professional staff more There is a little bit of a divide in the LRC between the, what s called professional staff and what s called the administrative staff. Would you fall under administrative? I fall under administrative staff and therefore was not so exposed, I think, at that time, to time sheets and all kinds of other organisational management changes that were introduced at the LRC. And I think, at that time, when Bongani (Majola) and Odette (Geldenhuys) were here, the Constitutional Litigation Unit also started, and I was then

7 7 appointed as librarian in the CLU, so I think was almost unaware of what was going on in the rest of the LRC, because it was such an incredibly exciting new thing that was happening, and the library then was really a challenge because suddenly you had to start from scratch and build up this library with all these international materials. Right. I wondered whether you could talk a bit about that, about your work in the Constitutional Litigation Unit...you were working for people like Wim Trengove etc, and so it must have been a fantastic opportunity? It was absolutely wonderful, I think I said I learnt a lot from Mahomed (Navsa) and I...and I certainly did, but I think, working with Wim (Trengove) was also just one of the most wonderful things that can happen to a librarian, you know I don t think many people, many librarians will be able to say that they have really worked closely with someone like Wim (Trengove). And because it was such a small unit, even more than before, we really worked as a team. And when it started Mahomed (Navsa) was the Director of the CLU, Chris Nicholson was there after Mohamed (Navsa) was appointed to the bench for a very short period, and then Wim (Trengove) came. And, you know, it was amazing, I will never forget the death penalty case. We had an American intern who also was here for a year, Peter Bouckaert, and Peter (Bouckert) and I were just dashing here and there to try and collect material for the death penalty case, you know, you really had to dig around to find information. And Wim (Trengove) is such a perfectionist, and he just has this amazing way of starting out with huge amounts of material, and just covering himself completely, and then reducing it to a absolute bare minimum with a skeleton argument that is just brilliant, It was a wonderfully exciting time to...to be involved in all of it. So you worked there, and then at what point did you leave the CLU and then...get integrated into the LRC again as it were? I never actually left the CLU as such, there was then a decision that the library will become one library again, you know, there used to be a division when the CLU started - there was a separate CLU library and a separate Johannesburg Office library. What was the organisational decision around that; was that because the work had been...you had consolidated a CLU library or...? I think the CLU library, at that point, was more consolidated. It s also, you know, always with libraries, the money is not so readily available, so when the CLU started, the Canadian Bar Association funded us and the library. And I also had the incredible opportunity of going to Canada, funded by the CBA, and the CBA pumped in a lot of money in the CLU, but also in the library to enable us to have a whole lot of international materials and journals and And then I think the library was there and it was built up the funding became more and more tricky for the LRC, and it was then decided to consolidate the two libraries again, and I was then appointed in charge and I had an assistant, and both libraries were incorporated.

8 8...since the mid 1990s, LRC s, like most NGOs and smaller non-profits, etc, have been affected by funding, and I m wondering how that really then impacts on you in terms of your work and access to materials, the latest technology, etc, what are some of the dilemmas and challenges for you? It s becoming increasingly difficult because at the moment, the library almost has no budget. And because we had this really good library going when the CLU started, and we had the funding from the CBA, we have a lot of international material people from outside also use us because they knew that we had this material, we had this good library. And now we ve reached a point where we actually have to just cut down on everything, and no longer subscribe to journals, and books are also becoming so expensive, so it is becoming, but I suppose more and more things are becoming available on the internet, so one just has to become more resourceful to try and find... Absolutely......to try and find information...but at the same time...and I m wondering how frustrating that must be for you, because, I m sure, in trying to ferret things out, you probably come across things but then you need something...like a JSTOR article for example, then that requires a subscription, I m just wondering how that affects you? Well, it is hard and it is frustrating and, I mean, obviously in an ideal world it would have been wonderful if there was more money available, and we could just subscribe to more electronic resources as the move is more and more towards electronic resources, so, yes,.i do find it frustrating and I also find it frustrating that my work currently almost centres around having to think how to cut down, rather than to do what I love doing and loved doing in the past, which is to, do research... how does that impact...the lack of funding and the inability to get really up to date research, how do you think that impacts on the lawyers, and what they need, and the fact that they need this information yesterday on the cases...? That s also the thing with lawyers, you know, I think that s the thing that people don t always understand that you can say we cannot keep this material any longer, but that s just the nature, I think, of being a lawyer, they come to you absolutely last minute and then it seems to be absolutely vital that they have this material. So if you don t have it, it does become tricky, you know? Luckily there is a wonderful listserv of law librarians that we all use extensively, so many times a day this message will pop up from one or the other law librarian saying: please, I need this. So if it s available in Johannesburg, there s a very supportive group of law librarians who try and help each other out. Because I think many libraries face financial difficulties and the big law firms at least still seem to have more money...

9 9 So, what is your relationship in terms of the universities, do you have a good sort of working relationship, is that what you re talking about, a network of librarians through the universities...? Universities and the big law firms, you know, and the Constitutional Court we re all part of the listserv of law librarians, be it academic or in firms, so, that does help one out at times... You do the research and you find all this information and the lawyer then gets it together and represents the client. Do you ever get curious about what happens, outcomes, what happened to the case, etc.? Because in a way you are dealing with the case... Absolutely, yes....and you are dealing with legal principles Sometimes when I can I try and go to court to also now and then hear argument in the case that you were involved in and,.at least the LRC is the kind of place where you do hear the outcome of the cases, it s not as if lawyers are out there and you re down here and no-one would relate to you... That s the other thing I hear about the LRC a lot is the kind of... the lack of distancing, even though, as you said, there is a division between the administrative and the professional staff, but in some ways it seems to me that there might be more interaction with the lawyers. And I m wondering whether you as a librarian, have that? Yes, I definitely I ve never worked in a big corporate firm so I don t really know how it...how it would be there, but I do think here, one definitely can go to someone and say what happened, or how are things going or how far are you, or.did you use this or that that I gave you, or was that helpful? One of the things is that people underestimate the importance of librarians, and libraries, and research, and I m wondering whether, in an organisation like the LRC, whether you feel particularly valued in terms of the amount of work you have to do and also the deadlines against which you work? I think on some levels I do feel valued and certainly by some people. I think someone like George (Bizos) never, ever would not say wherever he is, how much he values the library and the support he has of the library. So I mean, one cannot possibly feel undervalued if you have someone like George (Bizos) continuously saying how much he values the service..but on another level I think people sometimes are unaware of what you do in a library, and they don t really realise what kind of a service is

10 10 provided. I think the lawyers do understand because they need the information and if they get it they are happy. In terms of funding Catrin, what do you...what is your sense of what needs to happen, in order for you to function effectively? Well, you know, I think the library, you were asking whether it is valued. I think it is valued but I think it s also undervalued, and I think people don t really understand maybe how important it is, particularly in a legal library where things change all the time. And.if something is out of date you can really get thrown out of court, because something is out of date, and, old information is presented. If an Act got repealed, or something changed in the law, that can have serious ramifications for the outcome of a case. So I think it would help if people realised that a library is the starting point. To fund a case is important and to have a funding for the case is important, but if you don t have the kind of support from the library to effectively argue that case, and run that case, then you cannot do it. And therefore it is really important also to put a substantial amount of money aside to have an effective library.and I think that doesn t always happen. In terms of personalities and different people working here, etc, what are some of your fond memories of working with...you ve mentioned Arthur (Chaskalson), and you ve mentioned Mahomed (Navsa), but I m wondering now, since there s been such change, who are the people that you find that you can really find it interesting to work with, where you learn in the process, etc? Well, I ve mentioned George (Bizos), you know, George (Bizos) has also been an amazing person to work with and has also been an amazing influence on my life Really?...because.he s just a complete grandfatherly figure, but a very wise grandfather that you can go to at any point in time, and talk to about anything, and he will always make time available, and he will always listen. And, legally he s brilliant like Arthur (Chaskalson) even though personality-wise he is very different to Arthur (Chaskalson). To have worked with and still work with, such incredible legal minds has just been mind-boggling. And George (Bizos) always brings in Greek mythology and Greek philosophy and gets me to find all kinds of interesting texts, for example what did Oedipus do, or say, during such and such a time, and it s just amazing, because you also feel you re not only researching the law, what you need to find goes so much wider than law. So, yes, George (Bizos) has been wonderful. And, you know, all the attorneys in the Johannesburg Office, which are the people I worked with most closely, in their own way, you learn from and I found it really nice to work with them. And the candidate attorneys, I mean,.that s a different kind of relationship, they come in here and they re fresh from law school and you have a different kind of relationship with them. And you train them a little bit, and you show them around a little bit, and I think the wonderful thing about the LRC is how people

11 11 actually benefit from each other. Whoever you are, people are prepared to listen to each other and learn from each other. The other thing is that, when you work in an organisation like this, people choose to work in Public erest, whether it s Public erest Law, or Public erest Projects, etc, what do you think is your sense of working in a place...what are the rewards of working in a Public erest Law organisation? Well, I think I ve, you know, I ve stated it in a sense already... Sure....by saying that everyone in the LRC has some kind of, passion for Public erest Law, and.it s a certain kind of person who has that and I think as long as, you know, as long as you have that, I think we really all work together. It s something that I don t think you will find outside of these kinds of organisations, NGOs or Public erest Law firms. And you find that people who s worked here, like Moray Hathorn who s now at Webber Wentzel, would come back every once in a while and he would ring the bell and he would come in and he would say: can I just sit here for a while, I just feel like being home? Ok. And you know, that s... That s wonderful....that s the sense you have here, that people still consider the LRC as home, and at times we disagree, and we fight, and we scream and shout, but there is.this feeling that we are still a family, I think. One of the things that s been said about the LRC is that, with the change and then the lack of funding, etc, the LRC s unable to really attract good quality lawyers, or if they attract good quality lawyers, especially black lawyers, then they don t stay very long because they re so much in demand in other places, do you see a sense of that in terms of the people you work with, is there a turnover, a high turnover? In the past when I started here it was very much people who had been here for a very long time, and I think it s true that now particularly young, black lawyers get better positions and better salaries. Things have changed in South Africa, whereas before for black people, a place like the LRC was maybe one of the few places where they could practice as a lawyer, they now can find positions anywhere, so yes, there has been a large turnover. I don t think that the people who are here are necessarily all leaving, there are young people who remained here and who really still has that Public erest

12 12 feeling, and that s why they are staying, but I think people often also have other responsibilities, they have to look after families and extended families, and money is important and the LRC is not so lucrative, you cannot earn what you earn in a private law firm or in government.. What about yourself in terms of...the options are endless for you, given your background and the extensive library experience you have, what makes you stay on in the LRC? Certainly you ve told me some of the reasons but I m wondering what really drives you to remain in one place, and...how does it sustain you, let s put it that way? I think the cases at the LRC will always sustain one because, even though things have changed in South Africa, it hasn t changed to such an extent that you feel everyone is treated fairly I think often people think now things have changed in South Africa, and therefore there is no real scope for an organisation like the LRC. I think that s not true, you just have to look at our clients and the people sitting in reception, to realise that there are so many people who are still down and out, and who don t have access to a whole lot of things. And I think, that s what I want to do. I was offered a position a couple of years ago at one of the big law firms and I was seriously considering taking it, and then I went to speak to George (Bizos) as my grandfather at the LRC, and he said to me: Catrin, you won t be happy there, and, I don t think this is what you want to do. And, you know, I thought about it and I thought: I won t be...i probably will not be happy there because, it s the clients and the cases, I think, that made me stay here Right. The other thing is that you develop very close relationships, and as you mentioned, George (Bizos) for example, in terms of the administrative staff, do you find that there s been a high turnover or people stay long and that you develop close relationships with people, or is it...is your the type of job you do very much by yourself and kind of concentrating on what you do? No, I don t think so, I think, you know, there are many of the administrative staff who ve also stayed for a long time. Connie (Mogorosi) is the receptionist, and she has been here.just a little bit shorter than I am, I ve seen her daughter grow up and it s definitely not as if I feel I work and only do my job and I don t have contact with colleagues on a personal level. There s been some turnover, and maybe turnover is also not always a bad thing. But many people also have been here a long time and I think particularly with the people who ve been here a long time, we do know each other quite well and know about each other s families, and I don t think there is such a thing in the LRC as only doing your job.. Before the LRC was...it served a wide range of cases and then by the mid 1990s to the late 1990s there was this...focus areas that were created, how did that impact on the type of work, has it made easier for you to...with the focus areas, different focus areas?

13 13 I suppose in one sense, and also from a librarian s point of view, it s, in a way, easier because you know exactly.we don t do labour anymore, we do do environmental law, we do women s rights, so in a sense, it, has made it easier. I know that s a huge debate in the LRC, and people get quite worked up about it, and there s a big difference for instance between Arthur (Chaskalson) and George (Bizos) as far as the focus areas are concerned. Because Arthur (Chaskalson) thinks the LRC should streamline and should have all these focus areas and do only the types of cases that fit into the focus areas and George (Bizos) feels there are many little people who don t who don t get help with their little cases and that one should do that as well. Another person who was at the LRC when I started here was Mr. Zim... Zimmerman Morris Zimmerman? Morris Zimmerman. He did all these little consumer cases.which the LRC now doesn t do anymore. You know, and I can completely see why it s necessary to specialise, but sometimes I just wonder about these people with their little cases, little individuals with little problems, but those problems to them are overbearing and large. Where do they go? Exactly, where they can actually go for help? And I sometimes think it would be wonderful if the LRC was in a position to actually still help one woman who bought something on hire purchase on now have no money to pay Absolutely. Catrin I ve asked you such a range of questions, I m wondering whether there s things I ve neglected to ask you that you really feel ought to be included in your Oral History? Goodness, I can t think of anything now. (Laughs.) Is there any fond memory you have of the past eighteen years of working here that you d like to share maybe? There are many, many, many fond memories I have of the LRC,.I think I ve told you about many of these memories, and I don t think there s one that particularly stands out above the others. Ok, alright, fair enough. Thanks you very much for your time, Catrin, I really appreciate it.

14 14 Catrin Verloren van Themaat Name Index Bizos, George, 9, 10, 12, 13 Bouckaert, Peter, 7 Budlender, Geoff, 4, 5 Chaskalson, Arthur, 4, 5, 10, 13 Geldenhuys, Odette, 6 Hathorn, Moray, 11 Majola, Bongani, 6 Mandela, Nelson, 4 Mogorosi, Connie, 12 Naude, Beyers, 1, 2 Navsa, Mahomed, 5, 6, 10 Nicholson, Chris, 7 Trengove, Wim, 7 Zimmerman, Morris, 13 Cases: Death Penalty case, 7 Spring swimming pool case, 5 State vs. Rudman case, 4, 5

15 Legal Resources Centre Oral History Project PUBLISHER: Publisher:- Historical Papers, William Cullen Library, University of the Witwatersrand Location:- Johannesburg 2010 LEGAL NOTICES: Copyright Notice: All materials on the Historical Papers website are protected by South African copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, or otherwise published in any format, without the prior written permission of the copyright owner. Disclaimer and Terms of Use: Provided that you maintain all copyright and other notices contained therein, you may download material (one machine readable copy and one print copy per page) for your personal and/or educational non-commercial use only. People using these records relating to the archives of Historical Papers, The Library, University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg, are reminded that such records sometimes contain material which is uncorroborated, inaccurate, distorted or untrue. These digital records are digital copies of electronic documents and the information contained herein is obtained from sources believed to be accurate and reliable, Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand has not independently verified their content. Consequently, the University is not responsible for any errors or omissions and excludes any and all liability for any errors in or omissions from the information on the website or any related information on third party websites accessible from this website. DOCUMENT DETAILS: Document ID:- AG Document Title:- Catrin Verloren van Themaat erview Author:- Legal Resources Centre South Africa (LRC) Document Date:- 2008