Cunningham Reporting Associates Specialists in Court Reporting and Litigation Management

Transcription

1 , IN THE UNTTED STATES DISTRICT COURT Criminal No. H TEC Federal Building 450 Main Street Hartford, Connecticut February 3, 1989 T R I A L Held Before: The Hon. T. EMMET CLARIE Senior U. S. D. J Cunningham Reporting Associates Specialists in Court Reporting and Litigation Management 11 1 Gillett Street (Corner Asylum Ave.) Hartford, CT Washington Boulevard Suite 2-C Stamford. CT 06902

2 p p e a r a n c e s : For the Government: OFFICE OF THE UNITED STATES ATTORNEY 450 Main Street Hartford, Connecticut By: ALBERT So DABROWSKI, ES. Executive Asst. U.S. Attorney OFFICE OF THE UNITED STATES ATTORNEY 450 Main Street Hartford, Connecticut By: JOHN A. DANAHER III., ES. LEONARD C. BOYLE, ES. CARMEN ESPINOSA-VAN KIRK, ES. Assistant U.S. Attorneys UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE Narcotics and Dangerous Drug Section 450 Main Street Hartford, Connecticut By:DAYID-D.-~VXNGER,-ES.~~~ Cunningham Reporting Associates

3 Cunninmam Remrting Associates For the Defendant Juan E. Seaarra-Palmer: LEONARD I* WEINGLASS, ES* DANIEL WILLIAMS, ES. 6 West 20th Street New York, New York For the Defendant Antonio Carnacho-Nesron: LINDA BACKIEL, ES. 424 West Schoolhouse Lane Philadelphia, Pennsylvania For the Defendant Carlos Aves-Suarez: SHIPMAN & GOODWIN 799 Main Street Hartford, Connecticut By: JAMES W. BERGENN, ES.

4 For the Defendant Norman Ramirez-Talavera: JUAN R- ACEVEDO, ESo 107 Franklin Avenue Hartford, Connecticut For the Defendant Roberto Jo Maldonado-Rivera: ROBERTO J. MALDONADO-RIVERA, PRO SE Post Office Box U.P.R. Station Rio Piedras, Puerto Rico For Anne Gassin: McDERMOTT & RIZZO One Liberty Square Boston, Massachusetts Cunningham Reporting Associates

5 Cunningham Reporting ASSOC~WS 1 I1 I1 listening to any radio or television broadcast concerning the subject matter of this trial, assuming there has been any, will please raise 4 11 their right hand. Thank you. Call the witness. \ I A N N E G A S S I N, I1 I\ I\ II II called as a witness by the Government, having been previously duly sworn, was examined and testified further on her oath as follows: lo THE COURT: Ms. Gassin, for the l1 record, you were previously sworn in this case l2 ll yesterday and your testimony today will continue l3 to be under oath. l4 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. l5 I1 THE COURT: Very well. l6 11 l9 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DIRECT EXAMINATION BOYLE: 2o I1 Ms. Gassin, you indicated to us yesterday that since early September of 1985 you have been 21 \I represented by Attorney Lloyd Macdonald; is that 22 I1 A. Yes, that's right.. Is Attorney Macdonald in the courtroom

6 today? A. Yes, he's here today.. Would you point him out for the ladies and gentlemen of the jury here? A. He's sitting here in the first bench. MR. BOYLE: Thank you. BY MR. BOYLE: Ms. Gassin, as we closed court yesterday, you listened to conversation number 2 from tape 54; is that correct? A. Yes, that's right.. Where were you when that conversation took place? A. I'm sorry, but can I see that again? To the best of my recollection, I was at my house.. Would you like to see the transcript to refresh your recollection? A. Yes, I'd like to see it again. MR. ACEVEDO: Excuse me, counselor, is it conversation 1 or 2? MR. BOYLE: Conversation 2. (Pause.) THE WITNESS: Yes, I was at my house. BY MR. BOYLE:. Where was Juan Segarra when he was Cunningham Reporting Associates

7 engaged in that call with you? A. He was calling from the Northhampton area.. Do you know why he was in the Northhampton area that day? A. He had gone out there,to -- meet with Paul He was at that point trying to put the lobile home up for sale. Now, during that conversation Juan ;egarra said to you that he had had an upsetting noment in Central Square; do you recall that? A. Yes, I do.. Did you later have a discussion with Juan Segarra concerning what that upsetting moment was? A. Yes. He told me later that he had gone into a bank in Central Square and was exchanging some money and that, apparently, the clerk told him to wait a minute and stepped back and went away from where he was standing from behind the counter and so he was worried at that point that she somehow was suspicious about the money.. Did he tell you what he did at that point? A. As far as I remember, he stayed there and she came back and he left.. Later on in that conversation - you said to him that you were - upset by-sogeth-inq you had seen Cunningham Reporting Associates

8 1 2 on television that day; do you recall that? A. Yes, that's right.. Would you tell us please what it was that Il you saw on television that had you upset? 11 I1 l2 l3 I\ l4 11 l5 11 A. That was at the time when Victor Gerenals identification was found.-a - and -- there had been an article about that in the press and there was also mention of it on the news.. Why were you upset by that? A. Because it was evidence that had been found relative to the robbery. THE COURT: Where had it been found? THE WITNESS: As I remember -- MR. WEINGLASS: Your Honor, I assume this question, the answer is not for the truth of the matter, but rather goes to the state of mind of the witness. 11 I1 " I1 THE COURT: That's correct. MR. WEINGLASS: I would ask the jury be instructed with respect to that. I1 THE COURT: It's a very simple matter. It's come out in the evidence, I think, I1 previously where it was found. Not where it was found, but it was thrown apparently MR. BOYLE: Ms. Gassin testified Cunningham Reporting Associates

9 Cunningham Reporting Ass~ciak~ yeste rday that according Juan Segarra, the identi away by Victor Gerena. THE COURT: kl now where it was found? THE WITNESS: her d iscussions with.at ion had been thrown The question is, do you I remember my C onversation with Papo as to where it was thrown a way. I don't remember precisely where it was f ound; whether that was in the same place or not. THE COURT: Do you know where it was t :hrown away? 1 Iass. Pike. THE WITNESS: THE COURT: At some exit on the All right. I BY MR. BOYLE:. Did you ever have a conversation with I Juan Segarra concerning an exit on the Mass. Pike where the identification had been thrown away? A. Yes, I had a conversation with him about that.. Would you tell us, please, as best you can rec-a1-l- -what be - said?- -~~~~ ~ - ~ A. I don't remember precisely what he said, but we had a discussion about the Mass. Pike, about an exit and the fact that it was not his

10 dea at some point. Ms. Gassin, at my request, did you also isten to tape number 56 from Boston? A. Yes, I did.. In listening to that tape, did you :ecognize any voices that appeared on it? A. Yes, I did.. Whose voice did you hear? A. If I'm correct in remembering that that is the tape in which there was a conversation between Papo and someone from an insurance company, then the voice I recognize is Papols. Did you recognize the voice from the insurance company? A. No.. Did you review a transcript of that conversation that I had provided to you? A. Just to identify the voice.. In those instances on the transcript where the voice of Juan Segarra-Palmer is identified, did you have any dispute with that attribution? A. No, I didn't. (Government's Exhibit 454-A: Marked for identification.) Cunnin@am Reporting Associates

11 BY MR. BOYLE:. Showing you 454-A for Identification, is that the transcript of tape 56? A. Yes, it is.. Did you review that transcript while istening to the tape to determine the attribution ccuracy of the voice attribution for Juan A. Yes. I listened to it long enough to letermine that that was Papo speaking. Thank you.. Your voice does not appear on that tape; is that right? A. That's right. It doesn't appear.. As of April 1985, did Juan Segarra still - own the Jamboree motor home? A. Yes, he did.. At some point during the spring of 1985 did he sell it? A. He put it up for sale when he had come up at the end of April. He sold it when he came back up in June.. Did anyone assist him in the selling of the motor home? A. Paul Weinberq.

12 Cunningham Reporting Ass~iates MR. WEINGLASS: Objection, unless tls clear whether, the witness1 knowledge or hether was told or whether she assumes. THE COURT: Does she know? MR. BOYLE: 1'11 withdraw the uestion and ask another, your Honor. by MR. BOYLE:. Did Juan Segarra tell you that anyone had ~ssisted him in selling the motor home? A. Yes, he did.. Who did he tell you assisted him in selling the motor home? A. Paul Weinberg.. Did Juan Segarra tell you how much money he received for the sale of the motor home? A. Yes, he did. o What did he tell you he received for the amount? A. W e l l, he -- asked me to put into my account a check which was for $16,000.. Did he give you the check? A. Yes.. Did you deposit it t o your account? A. Yes.. After you deposited that check to your

13 =count, did he ask you to do anything further ith the $l6,ooo? A. Yes, he did.. Would you tell us, please, what he asked ou to do? A. He asked me to ask that the bank make out --- cashier's check, a bank check for $8,000 to be lent to a person named Norman Ramirez in Puerto THE COURT: Sent to whom? THE WITNESS: Norman Ramirez. 3Y MR. BOYLE:. Did you do that? A. Yes, I did. Ms. Gassin, showing you Government 455 for Identification, do you recognize that? A. Yes, I do. jgovernmentls Exhibit 455: Marked for identification.) BY MR. BOYLE:. What is it, please? A- It's a savings account withdrawal for $8,0. Is that a savings account withdrawal that you executed? A. Yes. It's my account. Itls my signature. Cunningham Reporting Associates

14 . When did you make --- that withdrawal? A. It says here the first of August '85.. Is that $8,00Othemoneythat you withdrew at Juan Segarra's request to send to Norman Ramirez? A. That's right. MR. BOYLE: Your Honor, I move Exhibit 455 in full. MR. ACEVEDO: No objection. THE COURT: Full exhibit. (Government's Exhibit 455: Received in evidence. ) (Government's Exhibit 456: Marked for identification.) BY MR. BOYLE: Ms. Gassin, showing you Exhibit 456 for Identification, do you recognize that? A. Yes. That's the cashier's check for $8,000 made out to the order of Norman Ramirez.. Is that the cashier's check you obtained from your account at Bay Bank? A. Yes, it is.. What did you do with that check after you got it from Bay Bank? A. I then sent it to the address which Papo Cunningham Reporting Associates

15 CunninAam Remrtine Associates had given me in Puerto Rico. MR. BOYLE: Your Honor, I move 1 i exhibit 456 in full. MR. ACEVEDO: I don't have any objection, your Honor, but I think it should be clear in the record and for the jury that.-the check is made out to Norman Ramirez endorsed by Norman Ramirez and deposited in an account in Vega Baia, Puerto Rico. I believe it's Banco de Ponce. THE COURT: When you say, Norman Ramirez, you understand Norman Ramirez-Talavera? MR. ACEVEDO: As a matter of fact, it's endorsed Norman Ramirez-Talavera. It's._I_ deposited into an account. MR. BOYLE: full before she testifies THE COURT: Full. It ought to be admitted those facts. (Government's Exhibit 456: Received in evidence. ) BY MR. BOYLE:. To whom is that check for $8,000 made payable? A. To Norman Ramirez.. If you would look to the reverse side, does the check bear an endorsement?

16 Cunningham Reporting Associates A. Yes, it does.. Would you read the name of the person who endorsed it? A. Norman Ramirez-Talavera.. According to the back of that check, is here an indication of when and where that check as executed? A. Seventh of August '85,_Banco de Ponce. -- ;he jury, your Honor? MR. BOYLE: May I publish these to THE COURT: You may publish them to :he jury. MR. BOY LE : Ms. Gassin, yesterday you testified about things that you had done for which Juan Segarra's - organization was grateful; do you recall that? A. Yes.. Why did - you do the things that you did? " A. I did them because he asked me to. I did them because I was at the time very much in love with him and I wanted to do what I could to help him.. During the course of the time that you knew Juan Segarra the names of other people that he had mentioned as beinq part. I_ _

17 f his organization? A. The name of Gabv. Luis. I think that's. Before yesterday when was the last time.hat you saw Juan Segarra? A. I saw him when he left the Boston area. I :hink it was July 3, Did he tell you -- was he returning to ?uerto Rico on July 3, 1985? Mexico? A. No, he was going to Mexico.. Did he tell you why he was going to A. Yes, he did.. What did he say? A. He told me when --- he came up from Puerto Rice at the end of June or around the 21st of June that he had found out that there was going to be - an FBI raid in Puerto Rico and that he was one of the principal taraets and so he was aettina out and he was going to Mexico. He told me that his wife and kids had already left for Mexico and he had come up to sell the - - mobile -- home and wasdn-g to leave.. Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Gassin. MR. BOYLE: I have no more questions Cunningham Reporting Associates

18 Cunningham Reporting Associates t this time, your Honor. THE COURT: Which counsel is going o proceed first? MR. WEINGLASS: I will, your Honor. CROSS EXAMINATION ;Y MR. WEINGLASS:. Good morning, Ms. Gassin. A. Good morning.. I want to start with questions that you?ere asked this morning by Mr. Boyle so that we :auld have some context. Do I understand your testimony to be that you started a relationship with Juan Segarra, Papo, in the month of May, 1984? A. That's right. That's about, by my calculation, eight months after September 1983, which is the date of the Wells Fargo robbery? A. Yes.. And you told us you loved him. A. Thatlsright.. And this is of no particular moment, but at the time you started your relationship with him, you knew he was a married man. He told you that?

19 Cunningham Reporting Associates That's right. He told you he had children? That's right, uh-huh. He told you he loved his family? Yes. You were then 25 or 26? Twenty-five I think, yes. And he was about 34. That's right. At the time of vour arrest 15 m onths.ater in August of 1985 you had begun a relationship with another man? A. Yes. I So, and that's Alex; is that correct THE COURT: I didn't hear that, counselor. MR. WEINGLASS: Alex. A-1-e-x. THE WITNESS: Yes. BY MR. WEINGLASS: the time of your arrest 15 months later it would be fair to say your relati.onship with Papo, for a ll intents and purposes, had ended? A. He had left, he being Papo. So, the relationship had ended? A. I don't think I can answer that with a

20 yes or no.. Would it be that you still had some feelings, but the relationship was over? A. I don't think I can say what would h ave happened if I hadn't been arrested on August 30, 1. W e l l, you were involved with this other m lan, isn't that correct, at the time of your a A. W e l l, I didn't know what was going to 1 lappen with that. I think itls very difficult to z mswer those kinds of questions. 1 that. I can't agree to. But you were arrested - -- about - 6:55 in the morning - on August 30th; is that right? A. Yes, that's right. On the street? A. That'sright.. You were walking at 6:55 in the morning?. Where were you coming from? A. My house.. Where were you going to? A. I was going to, as I recall, pick up a truck at Ryder Trucks because I - was --- then supposed Cunningham Reporting Associates

21 3 - be moving to New York City later that day. a. You were moving - -- on that very day? A. As I remember, yes. a. Now, it's true, isn't it, that part of he reason why you loved Papo was because you elieved that he was committed to helping the ppressed? A. I think it's fair to say that I was laptivated by him and by his values, yes.. When you say, "his valuesl1l what are you referring to? A. What he told me himself, that he believed in freeing the oppressed and he believed in freedom. As a matter of fact, freeing the oppressed and freedom are values that you yourself sympathize with? A. Yes.. As a matter of fact, during the time you knew him in those 15 months, would it be fair to say and tell me if it's not fair, that you ll yourself were searching for a more active role in helping the oppressed? A. I was searching at that point in my life for meaning and direction in my life. I think Cunningham Reporting Associates

22 Cunningham Reporting Associates lat's fair to say.. For meaning? A. Meaning and a direction in my life, ersonal and professional.. You felt that in this search for meaning s a 25-year-old woman, you would find meaning in elping the oppressed in part? A. In part and helping people who need help, 'es.. That included refugees from Central nnerica? A. W e l l, you would have to be more specific.. Did you want to lend your skills and talents towards helping refugees from Central Rmerica during - this time? A. If you're referring to a conversation had with Papo, I remember I worked at the time a health center in a clinic and I had been asked by a friend of mine whether I could help someone who was a refugee who needed to have some sort of operation, needed to be admitted into a hospital and whether there was a way through my contacts that I could ask phy~ic-~ans- what would b-e the best way of doing that. So, I tried to find a solution to that

23 Cunningham Reporting Associates problem, yes* As a humanitarian gesture? j < I A. Yes, because I felt there was someone here wh.o needed medical help and there should be a way of providing that help. You were also, and I don't want to b elabor the point, you were also interested in the b lroader issue of the p.olicy of the United States t.hat creates situations where people like this E ~olitical refugee needs help? A. Yes. I think you can say I was interested in the broader issues, yes.. You yourself wanted to go to a Jemonstration - >-- -- in Washington to protest United States % - policies - in Central America? A. I think so, yes. You did. Isn't it also a fact that one of the reasons which you didn't talk about this morning why you wanted to help Papo was because you had this set of values and beliefs in 1984 and '85? A. Yes. I'm not denying that I sympathize with values of freedom and as I said, helping people who need help. You didn't mention that this morning when

24 Cunningham Reporting Associates you were asked why you helped him. A. Yes. I would say there's two major reasons which for me are part and parcel of the same thing; which is that I loved this man and I respected the values that he shared with me.. It was that respect which was also part of the reason why you loved him? A. Most probably, yes. I don't know.. As a matter of fact, correct me if I'm 1 wrong, in your own family history either your 11 P ~ t or grandparents s were active in the I1 resistance against the occupation of France? = _ -. _. _- A. During World War II., yes.. So, you could relate easily to someone who would dedicate his life to resist what he 11 considered to be an occupation of his people? A. Well, there I have to stop in the sense that what Papo shared with me were, I would say, general issues of freedom and freeing the oppressed and not very -- he always actually answered my questions in very general terms. Yes. I appreciate that. A. So, it was also very difficult to know precisely what his plans were. He often asked -- when I asked questions he would answer by saying, -- I I

25 II II ll "That's just the kind of question you don't ask." -. We're going to touch on that later on. Now, you described a screenplay that you read; do you remember when you read it? A. Yes. In July of Four and a half years ago? II ll, Yes. A* I1. Four and a half years ago. At that same I1 time, actually the night before, you had watched a video with Papa? A. That's right. II I A* Il Yes.. You told us what you recall the 1 screenplay. What do you recall of the video? A. As I said yesterday, what I recall is just that it was a video of the history of the island and of the independence movement.. Could you be any more specific in your recollection about that video that you saw at the same time that you read the screenplay? 24 B specifically is a scene of a demonstration in Cunningham Reporting Associates

26 . A.. A. rememb That's all you remember? Specifically, yes. How long was that video? It's really an estimate, because I don't, but I would say maybe 15 minutes. - You don't remember any of the content of t hat particular video other than there was a scene 0 C ~f a demonstration? - W e l l, share with us one item of the t ist tory that was projected on that video at the 2 bf A. And that, as I said, it was the history the independence movement. same time that you read the screenplay? A- W e l l, I can only share with you what I remember. Of course. What do you remember? A. As I said, the only specific recollection of what I have is of this scene that happened -- I don't remember when -- a demonstration of people in Puerto Rico.. You and Papo that night after you watched the video had a discussion about that video and the history of the Puerto Rican independence movement; is that right? A. Probably we did. Cunningham Reporting Associates

27 Cunningham Reporting Associates. What do you recall of that discussion? A. I just remember it's a movement that's gone on for some time. That's all that I remember.. Just generally you remember that discussion just generally? A. Yes. Did the word, lllarestn L-a-r-e-st come up? A. I don't remember that. You don't remember that? A. No. - That wasn't vividly portrayed in the rideo and discussed by you and he afterwards? A. I'm sorry, Mr. Weinglass, I don't remember. I understand.. And the phrase "El Grito de Lares." "El Grito de Lares," you speak Spanish, do you remember that phrase? A. El Grito de Laresw? Yes. A. No.. It'sthesloganorthe-- it's not "Remember Pearl Harborn in the United States?

28 Cunningham Reporting Associates iscussing that? A. No, I don't remember discussing that.. Where several hundred Puerto Ricans were laughtered, executed in their fight against the panish for their independence in the square in ares? MR. BOYLE: Objection. Mr. 'einglass is testifying. The witness said she loesn't have any recollection of that phrase or :hat term. MR. WEINGLASS: I'm trying my best :o help her recollection. I'm not going to go chrough -- THE COURT: I'll permit that one question, counselor. If she remembers, all right. If she doesn't, that's all right. BY MR. WEINGLASS: You don't -- A. I don't remember.. How would you rate your own memory? Good, fair, poor? A. I think I have -- when you're looking back to events that happened four or five years ago, I think you'll agree with me it's much easier to remember events where you're directly

29 mplicated associated. the manuscript ave much more precise memory of certain incidents ecause theylre associated with a person who I was nvolved with.. Have you discussed that answer with :ounsel before today? A. Absolutely not.. By the way, how many hours -- strike that. Your.- sister is an attorney? A. Yes, she is. a-. Did you discuss -. your - - role -a-s-a- witness.. with your sister? A. My role as a witness? Your involvement in the case as a witness? A. I discussed that with her when I was arrested, yes.. You discussed it briefly with Mr. Avery? A. Very briefly when I was first arrested.. Discussed at greater length with Mr. Good? A. Yes. A. Yes. Your second lawyer? THE COURT: Mr. Who? ANDY MR. WEINGLASS: Mr. Good, G-o-o-d-e? Cunningham Reporting Associates

30 Cunningham Reporting Associates i nn E. 1 BY MR. WEINGLASS:. You discussed it a t still greater length 1 with Mr. Macdonald who is here in court? A. That's right.. You discussed your role as a witness with Mr. Boyle; is that right? A. I discussed with Mr. Boyle the obligation that I had terms the agreement that had ti ( rith the Government, yes.. That's all you discussed with him, right? 'hat's all you discussed with him? A. Plus the meetings that I had with the Sovernment that you're aware of.. The meetings I'm aware of are some of your meetings with the FBI. I'm not aware of your meetings with the attorneys in this case for the Government, who you met with; isn't that right? A. Yes, I met with them.. You went over what you were going to say here in court with them? A. The direct testimony, yes.. When did you do that? A. Well, I was here last week, as you know. That's one time. How many hours then?

31 A. I would say probably four to five hours ax imum.. Did you do it again since last week? A. Since last week very briefly yesterday. With whom? A. Mr. Boyle.. For how long? A. Half an hour, maximum.. Prior to last week had you gone over your testimony with any attorneys from the United States Attorneys Office? Yes. With whom? With Mr. Boyle and Mr. Dabrowski. And Mr. Dabrowski also? Yes. A. How many hours that time? I would say six hours. Six or seven hours. Now, we're up to about eleven and a half hours and prior to that time had you met with U.S. Attorneys to discuss your testimony? A. Yes. With whom? A. Mr. Dabrowski and with Carmen Espinosa. Cunninpam Reporting Associates

32 ~ ~-~ ~ ---. So, how many hours that time? A. I don't remember exactly, but I think it w< as roughly six to seven hours again.. So now it's getting up around close to 20 h ours and prior to that time had you met with U.S. A U,ttorneys? A. No. Prior to that time I think that puts 1s to the time of my arrest and the meetings that I : had, the 302's and the Grand Jury testimony. t. That was the 40 pages of single space :hat we have in writing? A. That's right. All told, totaling it all up, would you 1 say it comes to approximately 40 hours? A. Well, I haven't done the calculation as we've been talking. you've been doing the calculation and it adds up to 40, then I would agree with you. dates.. You said the diary helped you remember A. That'sright. This is 450. When you testified yesterday, did you have to open the diary once? A. No. You had those dates memorized? ~ Cunningham Reporting Associates

33 Cunningham Reporting Associates A. W e l l, as I said, I reconstructed the events once, twice, several times to get the chronology. Now, I know that chronology, yes.. But you said that the diary helped you. A. Yes.. Is there any entry -- strike that. Your said Papo came and you met him in May of '84. He came in June of '84. He came in uly of '84. He came in September of '84. He :ame in November of '84. He came in December of '84. - [e came in February of '85. He came in -.- April of --- '85. le came in June of '85. And in your diary is :here one entry for Papo ever coming to visit you? A. I don't know if there is, sir, or not.. Why don't you take a minute and look? A. As I said yesterday, the way that I reconstructed that chronology were from events that were happening in my life. The May 4th date I know because I know that it was a Friday and I remember that day because I had --- a performance that dav. -.- I knew a week before that I had knee knew one week later on May 4th that's when I saw Papo. That's how I went about reconstructing that

34 39 sronology.. How did you reconstruct July? iary completely blank? A. We're talking about July 1984? Is your. Yes. A. Yes.. Is your diary blank? A. It is. I reconstructed that period based In events that were happening in my life.. Look through the whole diary and see if - :here's one notation of -- Papo coming to visit you, ~f all those times you told us about. A. Well, I don't know if you want me to look at every page right now. It's very possible that there isn't, sir.. It's not the kind of thing that I would write down or I would need to write down.. That's not the kind of book that you would refresh your recollection since there's no notation whatsoever of him ever coming? A. No, you're wrong in the sense that's the kind of book I would use to refresh my recollection. His visits for me were associated with other events going on in my life. I know one day he came and I had a performance that day and I Cunnincam Reporting Associates

35 lad it on my calendar. THE COURT: What kind of performance? THE WITNESS: Dance company. I was involved with a dance company at the time BY MR. WEINGLASS: Let's see what we have here. Were there any entries -- i f you told us he came up August 16th and you went to Hartford with him on August II 18th. Any entries for August 14, 15, 16, 17, 18,.9, 20, 21? Any entries? No. The diary is blank at that point, ;ir. I retraced that chronology based on a very!ersonal event which was happening in my life and 1 don't think which is of any interest of your zlient for me to speak about.. W e l l, 1'11 accept that, but there's nothing in your diary, right? A. No, there's nothing in my diary. Now, yesterday right at the start of your testimony you told us you considered yourself guilty of being an accomplice and a co-conspirator in a $7 million robbery; is that right? A. Because I had helped with disposing of the money, yes. You were told, were you not, how many Cunningham Reporting Associates

36 YE zars in prison you faced, right? A. Well, at that point it was hard to know. I discussed all that with my attorney, yes.. How many years in prison did you believe Y' ou faced shortly after your arrest? A. I don't remember specifically. I knew t hat I had the prospect of extended custody in f ront of me. I don't remember specifically in t erms of years. That wasn't anything that you were C E :oncerned about? ~rgumentative question. MR. BOYLE: Objection. That's an I 3Y MR. WEINGLASS:. The charges were read to you? THE COURT: I didn't hear your res 'ponse, counselor. It wasn't clear to counsel. MR. WEINGLASS: Counsel obj ected to my quest,ion as being argumentative and I' ve withdrawn it. BY MR. WEINGLASS: W+~p_u_were arres_ted,-a-~~-~what charges you faced, right? -to 1 d YOU A. Yes.. They read to you from the indictment, Cunningham Reporting Asso~iates

37 Cunningham Reporting Associates ~ ~ right? right? That's right.. You met with an attorney that day, A. Yes..-. You met with a second - attorney that day,!(7ed) A. That's riqht. Didn't the question of how many years in faced come up? A. W e l l, yes, as I remember at that point in :he it was hard to know.. When the FBI read the charges and all :hey said to you it's hard to know how many years in prison you might face if you get a maximum sentence? A. I don't remember, sir, what they told me.. Does the figure 40 years in prison sound familiar to you? A. I don't know.. To this day do you know how many years in prison you faced for being what you said was guilty of being an accomplice and a co-conspirator? A. It would depend on the outcome of the trial If I don't know. -y- ou - - cr6 -foiind guilty and you're ~~

38 Cunningham Reporting Associates sentenced to a maximum term, how many years do you face? A. Guilty of what I was charged with? Yes. A. I would have to talk to my attorney. I don't know.. That subject has never come up? MR. BOYLE: Objection. That's not she said. She answered his question.. Has that subject ever come up? A. Obviously, it did. You don't remember; is that right? A. In terms of years, yeah, I don't remember. You don't remember that even though it's 3 matter of some personal interest to you; how many years you faced in prison; is that right? A. W e l l, I remember be given the outcome of the trial.. Your testimony that you never asked and none of your three lawyers, plus all the United States Attorneys you talked to, one, two, three, never once said to you how many years in prison you faced -- MR. BOYLE: Objection. BY MR. WEINGLASS:

39 Cunning,ham Reporting ASS0ciate~ I1 -- for what you've done? MR. BOYLE: Mischaracterization of the testimony. She testified directly the opposite of that. THE COURT: She said she didn't 6 1 remember. I1 I1 BY MR. WEINGLASS: 9 11 remember? l1 % l2 11. That's your testimony. You don't A. I know we discussed it and I know it would be based on the outcome of the trial. That's what I remember.. Although you considered yourself guilty l3 I1 I/ of the $7 million robbery, United States l4 15 Government never asked you to plead guilty. You didn't have to plead guilty to anything; isn't that right? 18 A. That was one of the conditions of my 19 agreement, yes A. Your case was diverted, right? The terms of the agreement were that the 22 charges against me would be dismissed provided 23 that I comply with th'e terms of the agreement. 24 So, you didn't even have to plead guilty 25 to a traffic violation in this case; isn't that

40 ight? A. pend in A. A. That's right. Now, for all this, how many days did you jail; in a cell? I was released on September 12th. So, you spent a total of 12 days in jail? I was arrested on August 30th. So, from ~ugust 30th until September 12th, yes.. And you don't want to go back to jail? A. I don't think anyone likes to be in jail. Now, the FBI told you, did they not, that lour ex-lover, Juan Segarra now faces more than 150 years in prison? THE COURT: Counsel, that is something that's argumentative before the jury. MR. WEINGLASS: It's what the FBI told her. THE COURT: uestion is, what did he tell her about her. If you manufacture a particular number of years to put before the jury to acquaint them with, it is improper. MR. WEINGLASS: It's not manufactured. It's in the indictment. THE COURT: If you'll listen. My point is, if you want to ask her if she was told Cunningham Reporting Associates

41 Cunningham Reporting Associates 1 11 or that was discussed, that would be permitted. MR. WEINGLASS: That's what I asked. THE COURT: Whatever sentence of the jury, will be charged at the end. It will be solely, if it's a guilty verdict, it will not be the jury, but the Court will make the decision as Congress provided. So, the jury or others will have nothing to do with it. MR. WEINGLASS: I must take e!xception to the Court's use of the word, '1 I :'ve read the indictment. We know what my client i 'manufacture." 1 Your Honor has read the indictment. :aces and I'm asking her if the FBI told her what :he tally was. I BY MR. WEINGLASS:. Did they tell you? A. I don't remember if they did or not. I don't think so. When I was arrested, I don't think so.. Since you've been arrested? A. As I remember, I've spoken with my attorney about that and what he told me is that obviously it would depend on the verdict and that it would probably be lengthy, yes. Now, yesterday Mr. Boyle marked but not

42 Cunnin* Reporting Associates admitted into evidence Exhibit 448, which is a statement of acceptance of the benefits of pretrial diversion. You've read this document, haven't you? A. Yes, I have. A. Yes. More than once?. You signed it, correct? A. Thatlsright.. Yesterday you were able to give us verbatim some of the words in the document about how you were to testify? A. I don't know if it was verbatim, but I understand the terms of my agreement, yes. W e l l, let's turn to that verbatim part -- THE COURT: This is not a full exhibit. Do you want to make it a full exhibit, counselor? MR. WEINGLASS: Yes, your Honor. THE COURT: Any objection. MR. BOYLE: No. THE COURT: Full exhibit. Mark it Madam Clerk. JDefendantst Exhibit 448: Received in evidence.) BY MR. WEINGLASS:

43 Now, the agreement provides, I'm now referring to the letter of September 23, 1985 from the U.S. Attorney's office in Massachusetts to Mr. Macdonald, your attorney? A. Yes.. Paragraph 1, you agree to give complete and truthful testimony and information, right? A. That's right.. You agree to answer completely and truthfully all questions put to you by law enforcement agents? A. Yes. Now, under the terms of this agreement, as you understand it, what happens to you if you don't give law enforcement -- or if you don't testify completely and truthfully? What happens to you? A. Well, the terms of the agreement were that I say what I know so that I do give complete information about that and then I not make any false statements, and that if I went against those t e r m ~ ~ - ~ h a t - t h e - i m ~ ~ f i i - ~ y ~ ~ ~ t ~ ~ revoked.. And you would face 40 years or more again? A. Well, then I would go to trial, yes.

44 . Who decides in this agreement, who Aecides if you're being truthful? Is it the jury or is it the folks sitting at this table backed up by the folks at that bench, the formidable array of people to my right? MR. BOYLE: Objection, your Honor. Could we have a question without the inclusion of comments by counsel? ry MR. WEINGLASS:. Who decides? Does the jury decide if rou're being truthful or is it exclusively the Jnited States Attorneys and the FBI? A. Well, it's the Government that decides. Letts review the time of your arrest and the events that transpired after your arrest. You were arrested at 6:55 in the morning and you were walking on a public street in Cambridge; is that right? A. Thatlsright.. You were walking alone? A. That I s right.. How many agents or - -police officers arrested you? A. As I recall, there were three. u Do you recall their names? Cunningham Reporting Associates

45 Cunningham Reporting Associates present. A. Neil Cronin, John Huyler and a woman was - -- I don't remember her name. Marita Hopkins? A. That's right. ll. Neil Cronin and John Huyler were sent by the FBI to arrest you, right? A. Yes. l3 11 I. The two gentlemen who had been listening to your phone conversation and had bugged your front sitting room, right? A. Yes, as far as I know, yes. Describe the arrest for us? A. You want me to describe what happened? l4 11 Yes, at 6:55 in the morning on the street, 15 1 Neil Cronin, John Huyler and Marita Hopkins 16 approach you. What happens? 17 A. I came out of my house. As I'm walking 18 1 down the street, a car came up to me and I heard I1 l9 'O I1 " II something being said and I thought here's someone trying to bug me and I kept trying to walk forward. Then the car stopped and I1 - You weren't wrong. Go ahead. I1 THE COURT: Counselor, that's an 23 improper remark and you don't make it again. 24 I1 I1 You've been warned before. That's very 25

46 Cunningham Reporting Associates lnprofessional and you know it. Proceed. THE WITNESS: Then as far as I remember, Neil and John both got out of the car and told me that I was under arrest. BY MR. WEINGLASS:. Neil and John? We know them as Agents Cronin and Huyler, but it's okay. MR. BOYLE: Objection, your Honor. It's not a matter what Mr. Weinglass knows them as. ;he described them as she knows them. )Y MR. WEINGLASS :. What did Neil and John do then? A. They told me that I was under arrest.. Were you handcuffed? A. I got in the car. I was -- I remember being handcuffed later at some point. I suppose that I was. I don't remember if I was at that point or not.. Is it your testimony that the FBI put you in a vehicle with agents without first handcuffing you? MR. BOYLE: Objection. That's not her testimony.. Do you recall if you were handcuffed

47 Cunningham Reporting Associates :fore you went into the vehicle? ecall. A. Boston.. MR. BOYLE: She said she didn't THE COURT: It wasn't too clear to er. She wasn't sure if it was the beginning or fter. Y MR. WEINGLASS: Would it.hat the FBI does assist your recollection to know not get into a vehicle with ~rrestees unless they're first handcuffed for the iafety of the agents? C A. Well, if that's the case, then I imagine was handcuffed. I don't remember that. I remember being handcuffed when I was then taken to Framingham to prison.. What happened to your purse; if you were carrying it -- I'm sorry, it's an assumption I made. A. They took it from me.. Marita Hopkins? A. I don't remember if it was Neil Cronin or John Huyler. Now, then where did they take you? They took me to the Marshal's lock-up in ~-c-l:,

48 Cunningham Reporting Associates. Are you sure of that? A. That's where I ended up, yes.. That's where you ended up? A. Yes.. Where did they take you? A. Well, I don't remember where I was. first had to get photographs taken of me. I I don't know where that was.. Did they take you to the FBI offices -- L O the ~ Marshal's lock-up -- on the ninth floor of :he John F. Kennedy building in Boston? A. I remember what happened to me, sir. I ion't remember at that point in time. I don't mow where that was. I remember that I was in a room where photographs were taken of me.. You were in a room designated by the FBI as the interview room of the FBI office. Isn't that where you were when they first took you in? A. I was taken into a room, yes and the FBI was present, yes. You weren't put into a cell until three hours and 45 minutes later in another building; in the Marshal's office in the John McCormick ~ ~ ~ -building;- isn't txdt righe A. Yes, I was taken there later. Again, I

49 Cunningham Reporting Associates don't remember the time. So, you spent three hours and 45 minutes in the interview room with the FBI, right? A. If you say so. I don't remember the time, sir. Now, you were allowed to call a lawyer at 7:15 in the morning; isn't that right? A. That's right.. Kind of not too easy to reach a lawyer at that hour, but you had a friend who was an attorney? A. That's right.. Did the FBI explain to you why they arrested you at a time before any law offices were open? MR. BOYLE: Objection. The question assumes facts not in evidence, your Honor. ahead. THE COURT: W e l l, it's harmless. Go BY MR. WEINGLASS:. Do you know how many law offices are opened at 7:00 in the morning in Boston? A. How many law offices? 1 Yes. A. I don't know, no.

50 Cunnh&arn Renortine Associates. Did anyone tell you that people go t o law school so they.can sleep late in the morning? Did you ever hear that expression? Now, this three hours and 45 minutes that 1 you were in the interview room, was a lawyer with you? A. During the time that I was with the FBI? Yes. A. Well,I1ll tell you what happened.. No. I'll let you tell us what happened, but first answer my question and then you can tell is what happened. In the three hours and 45 minutes that fou were in the interview room was a lawyer with you? A. No. Now, please tell us what happened. A. Well, what happened is that I called this friend of mine who is an attornex in order to tell _-=---.-Z_-T-- _I him that I've been arrested and to ask him what I should do and he said that he would qet somebody down there to talk to me.. You reached him at home? But in the three hours and 45 minutes, of

51 C u n Reporting ~ ~ Associates 1 course, no one showed up? 11 A. W e l l, you see, I don't remember the I timing on this. I know when I got back to the 11 Marshal's lock-up, I did see an attorney.. That was later in the other building in I1 the cell you saw a lawyer for the first time. I1 I1 I'm talking about when you were in the I John F. Kennedy building in the FBI interview room. 11 No lawyer showed up. I1 A. No lawyer showed up.. Right. W e l l, Neil and John were there though; is that right? I1 A. I remember Neil Cronin being there. I 11 don't remember if John Huyler was there. II. When Neil was there, he talked to you; isn't that right? A. Yes.. He told you they had been listening to some of your conversations on the telephone the last few months. A. Yes. 11. He told you they had a microphone in your I - sitting reon? I Yes.. How did that strike you?

52 Cunningham Reporting Associates ( surprised, which I was.. Dismayed? A. You can add that, too. Fearful? II Pardon? I A.. Fearful. A. I would say fearful and shocked.. Concerned that your private life had been intruded upon? A. Yes, you can say that. I1. Somewhat contrary to your values of a I free society. A. Yes.. Did they enlighten you by playing any 11 tapes for you? A. They played me an excerpt of one tape, II I\ I A. Yes.. And they played that excerpt after you I don't remember if they played that tape I\ A*, before I called my friend or after. It was before

53 a lawyer showed up, yes. - A. Yes.. He talks to John Cronin and then after t.hat Cronin plays for you one of your tapes; isnlt t.hat right? :hat.. So that the sequence is you get in the interview room and at about 7:15 you call the -" -., lawyer and about 7:40 another lawyer calls back. -* The lawyer who calls back is t 1 A. Sir -- I donlt remember the chronology of. Have you been shown your arrest report by the FBI? A. The arrest report? Yes. A. I don't know what that is. No, I don't think I've seen it.. Let me see if you've been shown it. _ Mike Avery? MR. WEINGLASS: This may be marked. THE COURT: The identification, Madam Clerk? THE CLERK: Defendant's 198. (Defendants1 Exhibit 198: Marked for identification.) BY MR. WEINGLASS: Cunningham Reporting Associates

54 . I want to show you a two-page report of your arrest, the official 302 of the FBI. Nowhere in that official report do they say they played a tape of your voice; do they? A. No, it's not indicated.. It's a rather detailed report. They say you ate some yogurt and you had some coffee, some cookies, but they don't say they played you the.ape; do they? A. It's not written down there, no.. In that official report. Now, do you remember that tape? A. They played a very brief excerpt. I recognized my voice and Papo's voice. That's all.. Would you say that tape bordered on the intimate? A. I don't remember the content at all.. Tell us what was going on in your mind at that time when you were in an interview room and they played you the tape and read you the charges? A. W e l l, I was in shock. I think also at that point in time I even wondered whether there ~ rnight~be~so%~sort of mistake. I didn't know why I was there. And I was upset, yeah. You didn't know why you were there

55 Cunningham Reporting Associates I1 because -- how come you didn't know why you were there? Is it because Juan Segarra or Papo never explicitly told you that anything that you were 11 doing in connection with money had anything to do I1 with the Wells Fargo robbery? A. It's not that. It's because I felt that 8 11 I didn't have a culpable role related to the l4 l5 l6 l7 l I I1 I1 I/ I1 I/ robbery. I was listed - on an indictment with a list of individuals who belonged to an organization that I didn't know the name of until I was arrested. Also because Papo had asked me to do several things for him without ever telling me there are consequences to your action. This is a high-risk situation.. And he never told you that it was connected to a robbery, a Wells Fargo robbery; is that your testimony? A. No, I can't say that, sir. I. In any event, that wasn't your testimony yesterday? 23 A. I'm sorry. You have to repeat that.. When Judge Clarie asked you yesterday 24 I1 25 afternoon, "Did Juan Segarra ever tell you that

56 I ihe money in your footlocker was from the W e l l s I Fargo robbery?" You thought for a long while and do you remember what you said? A. I said I would have to answer yes.. On the day of the arrest are you saying that you didnlt understand why you were arrested? A. What I'm saying is that what Papo had asked me to do, he had presented to me in a very matter fact way and never informed that t.here were very real and grave consequences to my a ~ct ions. Ms. Gassin, isn't the truth of the matter P ghat you told the FBI back in September of '85 and ;hat is that Juan Segarra never told you that the i! $35,000 in your footlocker came from the W e l l s Fargo robbery? Isn't that what you told the FBI? A. What I told the FBI is what I can tell you again today, which is that I'd been informed by Papo in July that he had participated in the W e l l s Fargo robbery. I had read this manuscript and he told me about the robbery. Less than a month later he asked me to participate in the transport of money that was to be concealed in a trailer and driven 1 across the Mexican border. Cunningham Reporting Associates

57 -- L As - I said before --- on other occasions when A asked questions as to, specific questions, as to a for example where the money was going, I was often + told, "That's just the kind of question you don't 1-- l_ll --- I think that, as I said also yesterday, - I wasn't aware of his having participated in any other robbery.. Is that your answer? A. And also I don't have a present 'ecollection to date of him -- of him saying this.s the money that came out of that truck.. But when Judge Clarie asked you that {esterday, didn't you indicate that he did tell tau? A. I said that I would have to answer yes and then I went on to explain that what I just told you today, which is that he had never -- he hadn't told me about any other robbery and that if at the same time he's telling me that the fives which are in the footlocker can't be used in the States because they can be traced, if he's counting money andpulling down the blinds so ~ - ~ - ~ ~ people can't look, I think it's safe to say that -- It's safe -- Cunningham Reporting Associates

58 1 THE COURT: Let her finish her statement. MR. WEINGLASS: I'm sorry. THE WITNESS: And due to the fact he had spoken to me about the robbery and he talked about transporting this money in a concealed fashion, we're talking about the same money. BY MR. WEINGLASS:. Right. You're making a reasonable inference and a reasonable assumption and I have no quarrel with your reasonable inferences and your assumptions; but Judge Clarie asked you, "Did he tell you that it came from the robbery?'i And you said, "Yes." Did he tell you? I'll ask you that now. Did he tell you that that money came from the W e l l s Fargo robbery? did. A. 1'11 answer it the same way that I just. Did he say it in words to you? A. I can't answer that that way. I'm sorry.. Do you remember when the FBI asked you that on September 16, page 12, Gassin stated that -- strike that Regarding the money and the footlocker Cunningham Reporting Associates