The Honourable Justice / L honorable juge G. Normand Glaude VOLUME 166

Transcription

1 THE CORNWALL PUBLIC INQUIRY L ENQUÊTE PUBLIQUE SUR CORNWALL Public Hearing Audience publique Commissioner The Honourable Justice / L honorable juge G. Normand Glaude Commissaire VOLUME Held at : Hearings Room 0 Cotton Mill Street Cornwall, Ontario KH K Tenue à: Salle des audiences 0, rue de la Fabrique Cornwall, Ontario KH K Monday, November 0 Lundi, le novembre 0 (00) -000

2 ii Appearances/Comparutions Ms. Julie Gauthier Registrar M e Simon Ruel Commission Counsel Ms. Maya Hamou Mr. Mark Crane Mr. Neil Kozloff Mr. Joe Neuberger Mr. Christopher Thompson Mr. Peter Chisholm Mr. Terry Mazerolle Ms. Helen Daley Mr. Dallas Lee Mr. Giuseppe Cipriano Mr. William Carroll Mr. Frank T. Horn Mr. Ian Paul Cornwall Police Service Board Ontario Provincial Police Ontario Ministry of Community and Correctional Services and Adult Community Corrections Attorney General for Ontario The Children s Aid Society of the United Counties Citizens for Community Renewal Victims Group The Estate of Ken Seguin and Scott Seguin and Father Charles MacDonald Ontario Provincial Police Association Mr. Carson Chisholm

3 iii List of Exhibits : Table of Contents / Table des matières Page iv Opening remarks by/remarques d ouverture M e Simon Ruel DOUGLAS, Sworn/Assermenté Examination in-chief by/interrogatoire en-chef par M e Simon Ruel

4 iv LIST OF EXHIBITS/LISTE D EXHIBITS NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO P- () Letter from Douglas Seguin to Dr. James Young dated March th, P- (0) Letter from Benoit Bechard to 0 Doug Seguin dated July th, P- (0) Interview Report - Doug Seguin with OPP D.C. Genier and C. McDonell dated February rd, P-0 () Handwritten Interview Report - Doug Seguin with OPP D.C. Genier and C. McDonell dated February rd, P- () Handwritten notes of Det. Insp. Hamelink dated February st, to December 0th, P- () Fax message from Doug Seguin to CRTC dated January th, P- () Letter from A.D. MacKay to Doug Seguin dated February th, P- () Letter from Keith Clingen to Allan J. Darling cc. Doug Seguin dated April th, P- () Letter from Allan J. Darling to Doug Seguin dated August th,

5 --- Upon commencing at :0 p.m./ L audience débute à h0 THE REGISTRAR: Order; all rise. À l ordre; veuillez vous lever. This hearing of the Cornwall Public Inquiry is now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Normand Glaude, Commissioner, presiding. Please be seated. Veuillez vous asseoir. THE COMMISSIONER: Good afternoon, all. MR. RUEL: Good afternoon. THE COMMISSIONER: Maître Ruel. MR. RUEL: Mr. Commissioner, today we have Mr. Douglas Seguin as a witness. Madam Clerk, if you want to swear the witness? THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. DOUGLAS, Sworn/Assermenté: THE COMMISSIONER: Good afternoon, sir. You ve been here before, but I want to -- not in that seat. MR. : No. THE COMMISSIONER: So there s water there for you. You have to speak into the microphone so that we can all hear and it gets recorded. If there are any documents, they re going to come through -- we ll give you a hard copy, but sometimes I

6 find it s easier to read on the screen. MR. : Okay. THE COMMISSIONER: So we ll take our time with that. If there s anything you don t feel comfortable with or you have any questions about or you want a break, just turn over and we can have a chat and we ll deal with that. MR. : Okay. THE COMMISSIONER: All right? Do you have any questions, sir? MR. : No, thank you. I don t have any. THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Maître Ruel. --- EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY/INTERROGATOIRE EN-CHEF PAR MR. RUEL: MR. RUEL: Good afternoon, Mr. Seguin. MR. : Good afternoon. MR. RUEL: So thank you for being here today. I just want to start with some background about yourself and to situate your testimony immediately. You re the brother of -- or one of the brothers of the late Mr. Ken Seguin? MR. : That s correct.

7 MR. RUEL: And we will go through that, but a number of allegations were made through the years against your brother and you and your family have been involved in trying to protect the family name, if I can use that expression, through the years. Is that correct, essentially? MR. : That s correct, yes. MR. RUEL: So I m going to go through your background and then I would want you to give us some background on your late brother as well. MR. : Okay. MR. RUEL: So we ll start with that. So if I can ask you to just give us a bit of background about yourself and about your family? MR. : We lived out about two miles east of St. Andrews, just outside of Cornwall, both Ken and I, and we re in the family. I was born in Cornwall, and we went to just a one-room school outside of St. Andrews and then to the CCVS, the Cornwall Collegiate and Vocational Schools for high school. Then I took courses in colleges for chemistry and technical writing, that type of thing. So now I work in a chemical company making wood coatings at the time. Ken --- MR. RUEL: So what s your profession?

8 MR. : It s chemist. MR. RUEL: You re a chemist? MR. : A chemist, right. MR. RUEL: A professional chemist? MR. : Yes. MR. RUEL: Okay. Thank you. So you still work in Cornwall? MR. : Yes, yes, I still work in Cornwall. MR. RUEL: And you live in Cornwall? MR. : Yes, I do. MR. RUEL: Have you --- MR. : And I have my wife, Nancy, and I have a daughter, Angela, a granddaughter, and I guess that brings us up to date on me. My brother, then he went --- MR. RUEL: Just a second. Just on the family, you said you were -- there was of you. Ten () children? MR. : Yes, yes, okay. MR. RUEL: So how many brothers and sisters? MR. : I had four brothers and five sisters. MR. RUEL: Yourself and your brother Ken, where did you situate yourself in terms of -- in the

9 family? MR. : I see. He was about a year and a month younger than I was. MR. RUEL: So should I understand that he was the youngest in the family? MR. : Yes, youngest in the family. That s correct. MR. RUEL: And you re second youngest? MR. : Second, right. M hm. MR. RUEL: Okay. So now some background about your late brother Ken in terms of his -- well, why don t we start with his studies? MR. : Okay. After the high school, I believe he took a year at Classical College for French. I believe he needed it to get into St. Paul s University, I believe, and I m not sure exactly what years were what, but I think Ottawa U as well for -- I think he was there for about six years in the -- I think part of that was Philosophy as part of the seminarian -- and then he left -- - MR. RUEL: That s St. Paul s? MR. : Yes, I believe so. Right. MR. RUEL: So what is St. Paul s? Is that a -- it s a university? MR. : Well, I think you study

10 Philosophy and I believe it s connected to the Ottawa U, but it teaches philosophy and arts type courses. I think part of it is courses in Theology. I think that s what he was taking. MR. RUEL: So for six years? MR. : Well, I think part of the last maybe two years, I think, was more seminary and Theology courses. MR. RUEL: So was his intention to become a priest? MR. : Yes, it was initially, right. MR. RUEL: And he changed his mind, I guess? MR. : Yes, he did. MR. RUEL: Then he became a probation officer? MR. : Yes, right -- yes, as soon as he finished his studies, he became a probation officer. MR. RUEL: Did he get a diploma of some sort? MR. : I guess -- I believe two of them, one of them in Arts and I think the other one in Theology, I believe. MR. RUEL: So do you remember when he started as a probation officer? MR. : In. I think it was the

11 summer of. I m not sure exactly the months, but I think that is about the time. MR. RUEL: So that was here in Cornwall? MR. : Yes. M hm. MR. RUEL: Can you give us some background about your brother generally, the type of person he was as you ve known him? MR. : Well, I always found him a caring type of a person who -- and a good friend to have. He had -- and I had mutual friends with him as well, always knew everyone else. The people around him seemed to be sort of like him. The family always liked him. They, you know -- even my own daughter thought he was a favourite uncle of hers. Just a very all-round helpful, caring person. MR. RUEL: Was he close to you personally? MR. : Yes, yes, he was. MR. RUEL: And would you and your wife see Ken frequently? MR. : Yes, we would invite him in for supper because he lived outside of Cornwall, and we d invite him in after he finished work, and he would come over and, you know, we would go out for coffee when he would come into Cornwall. Yeah, we had coffee during -- every Saturday. We would go out and help our mother out --

12 she lived out in the farm alone, and we would help her with the flowers or whatever that had to be done around there and always had a lunch that she prepared. So yeah, this was an ongoing thing every Saturday. MR. RUEL: So I gather that your brother had -- lived at some point on -- I guess he must have lived many places, but he lived on Alguire in Cornwall? MR. : Yes. M hm. MR. RUEL: And in Summerstown as well at some point? MR. : Right. I think he lived after -- he may have lived at home for a year or something until he got an apartment, I think, on Glengarry Avenue, and then bought his house on Laflin there, and in the mid- 0s I think he bought the property down along the river, Glen Walter. MR. RUEL: So at those two locations, Alguire and Summerstown -- well, the property you describe being on the river, I guess you said that was Summerstown? MR. : Yes, Summerstown. MR. RUEL: All right. MR. : Summerstown, right. MR. RUEL: So have you ever visited him at his house? MR. : Of course.

13 MR. RUEL: And, if so, how frequently would you do that? MR. : Gosh, I would say in both places it was like every week because it's not -- it wasn't only my -- I had a cousin, Jack Seguin, and he had -- there were other friends and we just would go over there. He'd - - I d pick him up or -- we d go over and -- and visit him and, you know, we would either go out and have a beer or play pool or that type of thing, so that was -- you know, we -- we were together quite often. MR. RUEL: So typically that would be in the evening or in --- MR. : Yes, we --- MR. RUEL: --- weekdays or weekends? MR. : We would go Saturdays, I d go in whenever I could, sure, and during the days, as well. He -- he didn't have -- you could visit him at any time and he usually liked to work around the house, so he -- you could visit him any time. MR. RUEL: So how many times would you visit -- I mean, just a ballpark figure, how many times would you visit him at his house per week, through the years? MR. : Through the -- well, on an average? Well, I'd say once a week, on an average. MR. RUEL: Can you talk to us about, if I

14 can use "Ken's friends", I guess he had some friends? MR. : Yes. M'hm. MR. RUEL: Can you give us some information about his friends? MR. : Well, he had -- I don't know if I have to name names or what, I don't know. Actually, some of them were on the list of - - and photographs were shown around, I guess, but yeah, one of the close friends was my first cousin, Jack Seguin, and it would be Al Laplante, Don Warden. Those are very close friends and, of course, Father Charles MacDonald, who was a good friend, and I think he -- he -- Malcolm MacDonald was also a friend. MR. RUEL: So Father MacDonald was a priest in Cornwall? MR. : Yes. M'hm. MR. RUEL: And do you know when and where he met Father MacDonald? MR. : I'm not quite sure of that. It -- it either was -- I have a feeling it was after --either while he was up in St. Paul's or after, but I can't quite be sure of that. MR. RUEL: And Malcolm? Malcolm MacDonald was a lawyer here in Cornwall? MR. : Yeah, I think it was really

15 when he started his work at the probation office that I think he knew him. MR. RUEL: Okay. I'll just pause here to remind you and we've discussed that in preparation sessions --- MR. : Yes. M'hm. MR. RUEL: --- that you're aware that some names are protected here and there's one in particular --- MR. : Yes. MR. RUEL: --- that you may want to refer to at some point and there's a moniker for that. MR. : Right. MR. RUEL: So you'll remember that through your --- MR. : Right. MR. RUEL: --- testimony. And if you have any doubt, I would invite you to raise the matter -- well, with the Commissioner --- MR. : Okay. MR. RUEL: --- and we'll confirm you with -- if you can name the person. MR. : Oh, okay. MR. RUEL: Anyone else, in terms of Ken's friends that you think about? MR. : Oh, well up in -- well, it

16 depends on which place he was living at. I would -- up at his Laflin, at his -- like he had friends up and down, there was Laflin Street there, we had mutual friends from way back in -- in our single days and they lived -- had their families on -- one had on that street. There was a - - they still visited it quite often with their families. In Summerstown, he did -- because he, when he got there, I think then he -- I believe that's when he met Ron Leroux and C- and -- and then he had other people around there as well, you know the Touchettes and the --- MR. RUEL: I'm sorry, you just mentioned the Touchettes. The Touchettes are neighbours --- MR. : Yes, yes, --- MR. RUEL: --- right? MR. : --- the neighbours on either side and -- and Mrs. Legault, I think -- I forget her name -- yeah. And on either side and two doors away was Ron Leroux and C-. MR. RUEL: So was he -- I mean he was friends with those people -- was close to -- I mean, the people you've named --- MR. : Well, they -- they became friends, yes, because they would come over -- Ron Leroux would come over quite often and, as he would say, and -- and he told me, Ron Leroux, that he would go over in the

17 mornings, have coffee before Ken went to -- to work, that type of thing. C-, I remember Ken talking about him and he wasn't terribly pleased with him in -- in a way. I can remember telling him -- telling me about certain -- I think a -- a shovel or something. There were different things that C- would use but then wouldn't give back to him and that type of thing. There were, you know, funny little things like that. He didn't particularly like C-, I don't think. MR. RUEL: Okay. So you've named a number of people. Have you met yourself, those --- MR. : Yes, I have. MR. RUEL: --- those individuals? MR. : Yes, yes, I have. MR. RUEL: In what context? MR. : Well, visiting Ken's place and we've -- I remember we had to build his boathouse. It was a little bit -- I wanted to raise it a bit and put some walkway around it, that type of thing, and C- was there as well and -- and because he was a carpenter and he was pretty good at that type of thing so he was helping. And as far as Ron Leroux, yeah, I've -- they would come into town and -- and we would go for coffee, that type of thing.

18 MR. RUEL: Including yourself? MR. : Yes, that's right. They picked me up and --- MR. RUEL: So would it be fair to say that the people you've named -- Father MacDonald, Malcolm MacDonald, Ron Leroux, C- were -- became a group of acquaintances of yourself in addition to Ken? MR. : Well, in the sense that I just named them as knowing, but they weren't in a -- they wouldn't have been a group of themselves, you know, in making up a group themselves. It was sort of a separate group, but I don't think -- I've never really known Father MacDonald to associate with C- or -- or Ron Leroux or even Malcolm MacDonald. I think Malcolm MacDonald knew C- and Ron Leroux, but I don't think Father MacDonald, it -- it was -- he may have known them but he didn't associate with them. MR. RUEL: So did you, yourself, associate with Father MacDonald and Malcolm MacDonald with Ken separately from those other individuals? MR. : Yes, I visited the -- when Father MacDonald was at -- I forget the name of -- the Apple Hill Church, and I visited there with Ken; go down, I think, once or twice. And I don't think I've ever been there with

19 Malcolm MacDonald -- or with Father MacDonald. I don't think I have ever seen him at Ken's, but I, you know, I've seen him other places and -- over the years. MR. RUEL: I just want to now to cover a few questions on your late brother's personal life. Was he married? MR. : No, no. MR. RUEL: Has he ever been married? MR. : No. MR. RUEL: He was a bachelor? MR. : Yes. MR. RUEL: He's been a bachelor all his life? MR. : Yes, he has, yeah. MR. RUEL: And do you know if he had some sort of alternative lifestyle that you would have known about? MR. : No, I -- he, from what I gather, he even went out the -- on dates. Remember the -- he went out with one of the girls from the office, I believe, at -- early on, maybe in the early '0s -- with a number of other young women, you know, after that, but he s a bachelor, sort of a -- probably quite shy and sort of -- as I was for years and years. It sort of, in some instances, curtailed your love life, but that s sort of,

20 you know -- and there was no reason to think any other --- MR. RUEL: And were you aware of his sexual orientation, for example? Has that ever --- MR. : No, that s never come up to challenge that. MR. RUEL: Have you watched the proceedings of this Commission so far? MR. : Yes, some of it, yes, or read transcripts. MR. RUEL: There s been testimony about frequent visitors at your brother s place, parties. What can you say about -- you ve talked about his friends, but other visitors or a group of people visiting your brother, especially in Summerstown, anything you ve witnessed through the years? MR. : Well, the only parties I ve ever been at was just barbeques, that type of thing, in the summertime and I think there were a couple of birthday parties for him and his regular friends that I mentioned and their families would be there. I have never seen any other parties myself, and I ve talked to his neighbours, and neither did they, as described in the transcripts. MR. RUEL: So I guess -- I mean, that s for what you know, from what you ve seen? MR. : Yes.

21 MR. RUEL: There were other days you weren t there. I mean, you can t testify about that, of course. MR. : No, that s -- obviously you can t. MR. RUEL: Have you ever witnessed the presence at your brother s place of prominent members of the community such as members of the clergy --- MR. : No. MR. RUEL: --- police officers --- MR. : No again. MR. RUEL: --- lawyers or other people? MR. : No, no, just Malcolm MacDonald. No, I haven t -- they ve never shown up that I could say, no. MR. RUEL: Your brother was a probation officer in Cornwall. MR. : M hm. MR. RUEL: He s been a probation officer for close to years. That would be accurate? MR. : I believe so, yeah. That s pretty accurate. MR. RUEL: So can you tell us a bit about his professional work and his professional reputation as a probation officer in Cornwall? THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I don t know that -

22 - I don t know if this gentleman can speak of his professional reputation in the community. MR. RUEL: Maybe I ll rephrase, Mr. Commissioner. THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. MR. RUEL: Maybe can you tell us about what you knew your brother was doing as a probation officer generally? MR. : Well, generally speaking, yes, I did know, but he didn t speak of -- not very often of any specifics of what he was doing, not any names or anything like that. I found at first he seemed to be pretty gung ho about, you know, helping people and he tended to, I think, be more on the victim s side -- or not victim s side, the probationer s side, shall I say, in trying to sort of help them. He didn t think they were all real bad guys, so he tried to help them out, although I think that may have changed later on and he maybe in the 0s started to become a little more disappointed in the fact that his help probably wasn t as well received as it should have been. MR. RUEL: When you say help, he was helping them --- MR. : Well, yes, he ---

23 MR. RUEL: --- has he told you that or that s what you understood? MR. : No, he had told me that at times he would send them either to get a job or he would canvass certain businesses to find out if they would maybe help in getting some of these people a job or if they needed the money, maybe send them to Welfare, that type of thing. MR. RUEL: You knew the type of, if I can call them, clients or type of people or clients he was dealing with at the probation office, adults, young, you know, adolescents, the type of clients he was dealing with. Did you know about that? MR. : Well, early on, as far as I know, and I believe he told me this, is there was adults. I think at the beginning there may have been, like on his probationary period, that type of thing, that he did have some juveniles, but I think things -- they -- at some point they divided things up somewhere and he was just juvenile - - or just adults. MR. RUEL: And do you know when that would have changed? MR. : I think it was in the 0s, but I m -- somewhere in the mid- 0s, that kind of thing, but I can t be sure of the date.

24 MR. RUEL: Okay. So to your knowledge -- I mean, your brother was a probation officer, so he was dealing with the -- he was involved in the justice system? MR. : Yes. M hm. MR. RUEL: So he would know or deal with various members of the extended justice system, if I can say, such as the police? MR. : Yes. MR. RUEL: Crowns? MR. : That s correct, yes. MR. RUEL: Courts? MR. : M hm. MR. RUEL: You re aware of that? MR. : Yes. MR. RUEL: So the police forces he was dealing with, I guess, do you know, I mean, who he was -- the police forces he was dealing with? MR. : Well, it would be mostly -- it would be both OPP and the Cornwall Police Service, I believe. MR. RUEL: Do you know if he had friends among those organizations? MR. : Well, I didn t --- MR. RUEL: This organization? MR. : I didn t know any personally,

25 although I think there was -- he had mentioned a -- but this was -- I think he was a retired detective, but I m not sure. It might have been like a Scott or something like that. I m not sure. There was -- but other than that, no, I didn t -- as far as I know, he didn t socialize with any of them and I, knowing him, out with him and all the rest of it, I had never seen any. He might say hello or something like that, but I don t think, you know, there was anything else to it than that. MR. RUEL: We know that at one point, I guess, there s -- the Chief of the Cornwall Police was Mr. Claude Shaver. MR. : That s correct. MR. RUEL: Do you know Mr. Shaver? MR. : Well, I ve met him, yes. MR. RUEL: Did you know if -- are you aware if Ken knew Mr. Shaver? MR. : Only in the sense that it s logical to assume he knew him, but I did not think that he was on any social basis with him or anything like that, that type of --- MR. RUEL: Had you ever met or seen Mr. Shaver in the company of your brother? MR. : No. Only -- well, except for one. He and I were in Ken s boat and we were going down

26 the river, and there -- on the north side of the St. Lawrence, in that area, there s sandbars, and what happens is a lot of people will -- you ll notice boats will stop there if it s a nice, sunny day, in different areas. And as we were passing one time, I believe that I recognized -- there were two couples and I recognized one. Like I said, I think it was a retired detective I recognized, and I didn t know the other couple. And I just asked, Well, who is the other? And he said, Oh, that s Shaver -- Chief Shaver. But he -- you know, that was all in passing. MR. RUEL: So were the boats far away when the --- MR. : Well probably from here to the upright there, you know, just as we re passing -- we aren t going fast. They were stopped and on the sand bar and so we just -- that was all there was to it. MR. RUEL: Was there any waving, you know -- either your brother or Mr. Shaver waving at each other or something like that or saying hello --- MR. : Well, I think there was the other couple I think was the ones that really -- and I m not even sure if Shaver -- well, he must have known who it was but I -- you know. it was just a matter of everyone waving.

27 MR. RUEL: Everyone waving, from which side? MR. : Both. You know. MR. RUEL: In terms of Ken s co-workers, did you know any of them? MR. : Yes, I did. MR. RUEL: Who did you know? MR. : Well, during that time, I mean, I d known Jos van Diepen for a long time. I think it s Louise Quinn. I d met you know -- because I d gone in I think a couple of times and I had visited Ken at the office. MR. RUEL: So who were those people -- for the record? MR. : Well, okay, Joss van Diepen is a probation officer. Louise Quinn was a secretary there. Mrs. Leger was I think she was the sort of office manager that type of thing. MR. RUEL: Mrs. Leger is Marcelle Léger? MR. : Yes, yes. And later on I think I had met -- I think it s Sue Larivière and maybe Ms. Cardinal. I m not --- MR. RUEL: Carol Cardinal? MR. : Pardon? MR. RUEL: Carol Cardinal? MR. : Could be, it s possible. Yeah,

28 I sort of forget what people -- what they sort of look like at the time now, but -- and Mr. Gendron I think his name was. I did meet him when he first came to Cornwall I believe and I was introduced to him and then later on I talked to him. I went in to the office one time after Ken died and just asked him some questions. MR. RUEL: So how did you -- prior to Ken s death, how did you meet those people. Was it at the office or somewhere else? MR. : No. I met -- there was a birthday party, I think it was for one of mutual friends, I think. My God, I can t remember exactly whose birthday party it was, and it was at Don Warden s house, and I think that s the first time that I may have met Mr. Gendron because he had come there and I think Malcolm was there and I think, yeah, there were -- okay, that -- Jack s again, my cousin was there. MR. RUEL: So that s for Ken s birthday party you re saying? MR. : I can t -- I don t remember whether it was Ken s or -- I don t think it was his at Don Warden s. I think it was someone else s. MR. RUEL: And have you ever met those people at Ken s residence? Ken s home? MR. : Only -- among that -- well,

29 Malcolm. MR. RUEL: No, I m been talking about Ken s co-workers. MR. : No, no, I haven t. I don t think I ve even seen Jos down there at -- we used to, years before then, used to be a -- we were much younger and we used to have -- go camping and that type of thing and different people would have different camps and that type of thing, but -- so that s where I knew Jos and -- but later on, no, I don t think I -- he had his own family and so on -- things progressed from there and I ve never seen him at Ken s place. MR. RUEL: Do you know if Ken was friends with some of his co-workers? MR. : Yeah, I think he got along well with them and were friends with them. I don t think he necessarily socialized with them. Everyone has their own, you know, their families and so on, so I don t think that was -- and he had his own large family and friends. MR. RUEL: Was he closer to some of his coworkers than others to your knowledge? MR. : To my knowledge? No. I don t. MR. RUEL: What about Nelson Barque? Do you know him? MR. : I had met him, yes.

30 MR. RUEL: Where did you meet him? MR. : Well, from the office I think and not sure if I remember -- they used to go out I think carolling on Christmas Eve or around Christmas time. The whole bunch from the probation office would go out and go to different places and sing outside their homes, and I went with them a couple of times and I m not sure he may have been in the group as well. But I met -- yeah, I d met him. MR. RUEL: So Nelson Barque was at some point I guess one of the -- Ken s co-workers? MR. : Co-workers, right. MR. RUEL: Yes. And was he friends with Ken, do you know? MR. : I think they got along fine. I don t think there was any -- again, socializing at all but you know that s not -- I can t remember -- I think there s only one time and that was -- it must have been a party -- maybe it was a birthday party for Malcolm, I think, because I m not sure why Gendron -- and I think Barque was there as well at that party at Don Warden s. MR. RUEL: And do you know that Mr. Barque left the probation office around? MR. : That s -- yes. MR. RUEL: You know that?

31 MR. : Yes, I heard --- MR. RUEL: Do you know the circumstances of his departure there? The reason why he left? MR. : Yes. I heard that there was some sexual abuse or whatever. There was a complaint about -- and he left. I had -- there was someone else that I knew that worked there, I guess, for a while and mentioned that Ken was quite angry that they actually just had him retire or whatever and they probably should have charged him back then, but that was -- I had only heard that. MR. RUEL: So who told you about this circumstance of Mr. Barque s departure? MR. : At that time, this was just a conversation having -- I m trying to remember the name. Perhaps a little later I ll --- MR. RUEL: Sure, if you don t, that s fine. MR. : It s just not coming through at the moment. MR. RUEL: I m going -- I just want to cover your knowledge of a person. His name is Gerry Renshaw. Do you know that person? MR. : Yes, I do. I m just gonna --- the name did come through. MR. RUEL: Sure. MR. : When I say comes through, it

32 must bubble up from somewhere, eh? Yeah, the name was Gary Lalonde. THE COMMISSIONER: I m sorry. Gary --- MR. : Gary Lalonde. THE COMMISSIONER: Lalonde. Okay. MR. : I think he worked at the probation as a volunteer or something like that for a while. MR. RUEL: So that didn t come from Ken, that s what you re saying? MR. : Yes. It didn t come from Ken, it came from this -- because Gary Lalonde had mentioned that that s what he thought. MR. RUEL: Did you discuss Mr. Barque s departure with Ken? The circumstances of his departure? MR. : No, I don t -- in fact, back then I don t think I actually really knew about this, or heard about it. I may have read something -- no, it wouldn t have been in the newspaper. Much later. Maybe only when all, you know -- my brother died and all this started coming out that it made any -- but I don t know that I knew back then. MR. RUEL: Gerald Renshaw. What do you know about Gerald Renshaw? MR. : Well, I met him through Ken and

33 from what I gather he had needed a place to stay and whether he had moved out from his girlfriend s or whatever and asked, you know, to stay at Ken s because he had a spare bedroom. And --- MR. RUEL: Sorry, when was that, from what you remember? MR. : That was in the late 0s I believe. MR. RUEL: And how did that --- MR. : But I didn t know him before then. MR. RUEL: How did that come about? Did Ken know that person previously? MR. : Well, supposedly through the probation office. You know, he was on probation before then and, you know, Ken would help different people and maybe he said Okay and went through the proper channels and let him stay there. MR. RUEL: And so that s late 0s that you said? MR. : Yes, late 0s, yeah. MR. RUEL: And so what happened? Did he finally -- I mean, did he stay at Ken s place? MR. : Well, I don t know. It wasn t that long, a year or a year-and-a-half, that type of thing,

34 0 and off and on. I have a feeling that he would leave and come back and something to do with this, I think, his girlfriend. So he d go and live with her and come back and that type of thing, but it wasn t always there during that particular time. MR. RUEL: So did that surprise you in any way that Ken would do that? MR. : No. I knew that he helped people out, and particularly had a -- you know, he had that feeling that he would help his probationers out when he could. MR. RUEL: So that s what he did in this case --- MR. : Yes. MR. RUEL: --- according to you? MR. : Yeah. MR. RUEL: Do you know how old was Gerald Renshaw at the time, approximately? MR. : Did I -- how old he was? MR. RUEL: Yes. MR. : I would say in his s. MR. RUEL: And Ken then was -- how old was Ken then, back then? MR. : That was in -- well, probably about or or three or something like that.

35 MR. RUEL: And did they -- I mean, according to -- I mean, you ve met Mr. Renshaw, right, and can you describe the type of relationship they had? I mean, were they friends or just acquaintances? Can you --- MR. : Just friends. Yeah, just friends. He was -- Gerry wasn t there really that often. I mean, as far as when I d be there he really wasn t around very much. He just seemed to be not -- you know, he just used the place as a place to stay or to sleep and then he was gone. MR. RUEL: Did he have a room there? MR. : Yes, there was a separate, you know --- MR. RUEL: So would you see him frequently at Ken s place? MR. : Yes, quite frequently he d be there. But, like I said, for a place for someone staying there he wasn t really there very often that I could see when I would visit. MR. RUEL: And Mr. Renshaw -- I m talking about Gerry or Gerald Renshaw. MR. : M hm. MR. RUEL: The relationship, vis-à-vis you, I mean, did you two ever become friends in any way or --- MR. : No, more just acquaintances.

36 No, we didn t socialize, shall we say, except, you know, coffees and that type of thing, or if there s a birthday party for Ken, you know, that was it. MR. RUEL: So he would be there at like birthday parties. That s what you re saying? MR. : There was one that I remember seeing him in 0. MR. RUEL: Did -- well, prior to Ken s death -- and we re going to come to that -- but there s some events that happened after. We re going to cover that soon. But prior to Ken s death, has Mr. Renshaw ever made a comment to your complaint with respect to Ken s behaviour? MR. : No, never. No, never has. MR. RUEL: Have you ever seen a teenager or teenagers or adolescents at Ken s place; young persons? MR. : The only ones I would know of would be my own family, family members. But, no, I ve never seen any under age -- you know, no one younger than, say, let s say, Gerry Renshaw. That s -- he did have his own children there I think. They visited with his wife -- with his girlfriend or wife. And other than that, no. MR. RUEL: Or people that would be -- with that I mean not necessarily being minors but people between the age of, let s say, and 0, younger persons. Did you

37 ever see that type of person at Ken s place? MR. : Well, are you saying to 0 is a young -- a really young person or --- MR. RUEL: No, no, I mean, I m talking young person in the sense of being -- people in their s for example. MR. : Well, Gerry Renshaw and I think -- like, actually I can t remember his brothers being there but, no there was -- there was only one person I was introduced to and that was called -- somebody called St- Louis but I don t know the first name. MR. RUEL: And how old was that person? MR. : Oh, he was at least. MR. RUEL: Was he a friend of Ken s? MR. : No -- well, I didn t see that. He was just there with someone else for a short time and then they left. MR. RUEL: And in terms of people being under the age of you ve never seen any? That s your --- MR. : No, I don t --- MR. RUEL: Now, I want to talk about, well, a difficult area, I guess. It s your brother s death and the events that led to that event to happen. So prior to - - well, he died on November,. That s correct? MR. : M hm.

38 MR. RUEL: Did he ever -- did he speak to you before his death about any problems he may have had? MR. : Yes. I think that was the weekend before he -- we were at my brother s place and we were having lunch and he did mention -- he was literally tearful, and he just said he was having a hard time or given a hard time at work is what he said, and so we went outside. I was going to talk to him but somebody came along and interrupted so I never got the explanation of what he meant. MR. RUEL: You never got there? I mean, he didn t tell you? MR. : No, he didn t tell me, no. MR. RUEL: Was he a -- were you a confidante of Ken? I mean, was he speaking to you of his personal issues and problems freely? MR. : He didn t -- not really a lot. If there were any -- I think the normal day-to-day goings on maybe he would speak, but if there were very deep issues I don t -- in this particular case, he probably would have but generally no, just as I wouldn t with him or anyone really except, you know, your wife or whatever. I do believe he did go -- I think he had, as I did, over my whole life, a very bad case of depression and so on and I think he had part of that as well. And as

39 I believe he also went to get help for his depression and anxieties or whatever in Cornwall, I believe. MR. RUEL: So prior to his death was he depressed, to your knowledge? Was he in a state of depression? MR. : I remember getting a ride with him and he seemed not to be himself and, in fact, two days before he was at my house and he just seemed to be very, very quite, very -- not talkative. He normally is and we talk easily and about a lot of things, but this -- he didn t two days before. MR. RUEL: So that s two days before his death? MR. : Yes. MR. RUEL: How did you learn about your brother s death? MR. : Ron Leroux s wife Cindy called. It was in the afternoon. And she said that they had found Ken dead. So right away I called my brother Keith at work, and my wife and I drove down and Keith also had drove down as well. We went into the house and I think Miller -- a constable or whatever -- Miller and two or three other policemen were there. MR. RUEL: Those were OPP officers; correct? MR. : Yes, OPP, right.

40 MR. RUEL: Yes. MR. : And, you know, just gave their condolences, but asked if I wanted to go up and see him or whatever. I just wasn t in the mood to do that, so I just -- we just went and sat down for a while, and then Keith came in. Then we were sort of asked to leave until, I think, around nine o clock or something. They had finished their investigation. MR. RUEL: I forgot to ask you, Mr. -- well, I ll come back to that, I m sorry. Apart from the police officers or -- you mentioned one police officer and there was another one there. Do you --- MR. : Well, I think Chris McDonell was there, but I m not quite sure of that. MR. RUEL: Did you see anyone else there? MR. : Oh, yes. Well, as we, Nancy and I, walked in toward the house, C- was coming out of the house and as he passed, he said something of the nature of, Ah, well, I expected that or that -- you know, that type of thing. And then he just kept walking, you know. MR. RUEL: How did you -- how did you react to that? MR. : Well, I thought that was sort of strange, but I -- you know, I didn t talk to him. He

41 just kept walking. MR. RUEL: So you went to Ken s house and then what happened? You left eventually? MR. : Yes, yes, we left eventually and, you know, made the arrangements and all the rest of it. And at the wake, then we noticed all the people like C- and Ron Leroux s family and Gerry Renshaw s kids and his, I believe, brothers or Barries. I m not sure. Gerry Renshaw was, I think, his -- I m not sure, but his girlfriend or wife, I think was a Barry. I m not sure of that, but he had close friends in the Barries. And they were -- seemed to be all there. They came and they sat down with us, sat at the end of the room for hours. I remember my mother commenting about how the children would go up and sort of put their hands on my brother s hands or whatever, and they seemed so sad and that type of thing. But just as Renshaw said before, he told me before there was -- he didn t complain about anything and it shouldn t -- it certainly didn t look like it at that time. As well, they sent flowers. MR. RUEL: When you say they, who is they? MR. : The -- Gerry and Cindy -- or, I mean, Ron Leroux and Cindy and Gerry and, I believe, the Barries did, yeah. MR. RUEL: So you re talking about the

42 showing, I guess? MR. : Right, the wake. MR. RUEL: And then you saw Gerry Renshaw was there, and his wife, and his children. That s what you said? MR. : Yes. MR. RUEL: Was there any member of the Renshaw family, like his brother or his brothers? MR. : Well, there was -- see, I didn t really know them at all, his brothers or the Barries, but I did notice, sitting back with Gerry was a fellow, sort of a thin, tall guy with long black hair, and I just -- I don t know if it would be one of his brothers or it could have been -- I d have to see a line-up and then I would know. Whether it was Fred Renshaw or one of the Barries, I don t know. MR. RUEL: Okay. I m going to -- we didn t cover that yet, but before the funeral home, was there an issue about -- or meeting concerning Ken s phone book? MR. : Yeah, Gerry Renshaw had mentioned to me that -- and I -- it was right around that time, maybe at the wake, that Ron Leroux had the telephone book, and I believe I asked him if he could get it for me. I think it was him that gave me the telephone book. MR. RUEL: And what did you do with it?

43 MR. : Well, later on when we were -- well, that s getting into another situation where the police -- the OPP, they were looking into -- now, I think we had gone up to them and were sort of -- made a complaint of sorts. We could probably get into it later. And Fougere -- Inspector Fougere was there and he mentioned something about -- well, now, see, at the time -- I can t quite remember the sequence, but I think it was Genier and McDonell -- Chris McDonell were asking -- we had gone in -- my brother Keith and I had gone in to make statements surrounding, I think, my brother s death, and that s when I took the telephone book, and gave it to them. MR. RUEL: You gave it to the OPP? MR. : Yes. MR. RUEL: At one of the meetings you had with them? MR. : Yes. Right. MR. RUEL: We re going to cover it. MR. : Okay. MR. RUEL: I ll just cover that point right now. You ve had some -- I guess either at the funeral home or the funeral with Ron Wilson; is that correct? MR. : Yes, that s right.

44 0 MR. RUEL: Can you tell us about that conversation? MR. : Yes. I went in and I talked to him, you know, about Ken s death and I believe he was a friend of Ken s and I believe he also had to pick up the body. I guess that wasn t an easy thing to do. MR. RUEL: He was the director of the funeral home, right? MR. : Yes, he owned -- I believe owned it. He had mentioned -- and by that -- yeah, he mentioned that settlement and he was quite angry and he --- MR. RUEL: Which settlement are you referring to? MR. : Well, the $,000 to David Silmser. MR. RUEL: Okay. MR. : And he was quite angry that they had made that settlement. Now, they meaning -- he mentioned like Malcolm and the bishop, and I think he said others that were involved in that settlement because he thought that was -- put Ken in a very bad situation where he had no way of really defending himself because, you know, the media and so on, it s almost -- the settlement was sort of an admission of guilt. So it put Ken in a very bad situation.

45 MR. RUEL: But do you know if Ken was involved or part of that settlement in any way? MR. : No, he wasn t, no. MR. RUEL: So why would it be an admission of guilt --- MR. : Well, because he s --- MR. RUEL: --- on --- MR. : Because he was a friend of Father MacDonald s and his name was mentioned in the statement which was released. MR. RUEL: But by that point the statement had not been released publicly? MR. : No, no, that s -- yeah, that s right. Yeah. MR. RUEL: So how did you know about that? MR. : Good question. Let s see; where were we again? MR. RUEL: Because the statement was made public, I mean to the -- in January of --- MR. : Yeah. MR. RUEL: --- by Charlie Greenwell, a journalist at CJOH; is that your recollection? MR. : Yes, that's right, yeah. MR. RUEL: So before that, it was not public in the sense of the general public knowing about it; is

46 that your recollection? MR. : Right, right. MR. RUEL: So how did you learn about the settlement? MR. : Well, it was a -- it was a general knowledge in -- in -- right after it was made, I believe. No, maybe he was the one that mentioned it. Actually, I can't be sure of that. MR. RUEL: Okay. MR. : But he did mention that -- that it was -- there was a settlement of some sort and they were involved and he was pretty mad at them. MR. RUEL: And that would not show Ken in a good light? MR. : Yeah, that's right. MR. RUEL: Or something of that nature? MR. : Yes, that's right. MR. RUEL: Is it accurate to say, Mr. Seguin, that you and your family -- but I guess you better speak about you -- had some suspicions about around the circumstances of your brother's death? MR. : Yes, we -- right away, I mean we obviously had questioned -- particularly the rest of the family questioned, you know, how he died; knowing that he

47 was depressed and all the rest of it, I went along with it and said, "Well, okay." But there was -- I think what happened there, the -- I think Dr. Conway, who was the coroner at the time, I think he had mentioned to the pathologist or something -- this is what I got out later -- and that he wasn't supposed to tell anybody about the results or whatever, but my wife, Nancy, went down to the -- to the pathologist's and asked to see some of the -- the pictures and so on and -- because we were sort of questioning about this; I didn't know that she was going to do this -- but -- and she saw some things what -- like there was something on his hand, what was -- she thought it was a cut but I guess later on they said it was blood or something like that. There were a few things that she saw that she thought should be questioned. Then when I saw the coroner's sort of report, it seemed to be very, very simplified and not very explanatory or anything like that, so I decided to try to clarify the situation so I sent a -- a letter to the Dr. Young, I believe, of the Coroner's Office in Toronto and they then got Bechard, I think it was, in Kingston, to look into it and --- MR. RUEL: So the police officers, the OPP officers that were at the scene, I guess ---

48 MR. : M'hm. MR. RUEL: --- at Ken's house, did they explain to you what they found? MR. : Did the police? Yes, they did. We -- we went down, I think it was a week and a half after Ken's death, I went, before Christmas, I think it was, to Lancaster and talked to Chris McDonnell and Millar about this and they told us it was suicide and - - and that type of thing. So that was before I think we -- you know, we would have gotten the report from the coroner. And they also mentioned questions about -- well they didn't -- they didn't actually come out and say I don't think, as I remember, that they thought Ken was a pedophile or something; they just started talking about Milton (phonetic) MacDonald, who was Millar's father-inlaw, I think it was, and sort of suggesting that there's a lot of this type of thing going on, you know, sexual abuse with minors and, you know, then asked us what we thought of -- around Ken's place and -- and that type of thing. And then they mentioned the tapes, I believe. The two tapes that they had found at Ron Leroux' and said that Ron Leroux had, at one point, said it was Ken's -- they were Ken's. MR. RUEL: So this is a discussion with ---

49 MR. : Yes, Millar --- MR. RUEL: --- Millar -- Constable Millar -- - MR. : Yes. MR. RUEL: --- from the OPP? MR. : Right. MR. RUEL: You're ahead of me in my organization --- MR. : Oh. MR. RUEL: --- but did you have any -- I mean, they were mentioning things --- MR. : Well, yes, we had no --- MR. RUEL: --- happening at Ken's place? MR. : You know, we had no idea what they were really talking about and, as I remember, my sister and brother with me, and they weren't really too happy with them for bringing up things that we had, you know, were thought -- and they didn't seem to have any sort of backup. They didn't -- you know, we -- people that would ask questions, and right away, and they just sort of seem to be at a loss to explain why they would bring this up. MR. RUEL: Okay. Let me come back to this point --- MR. : Okay.

50 MR. RUEL: --- a little bit later. I just want to cover a few points concerning, you mentioned a coroner. And is it accurate to say that you called for an inquest into your brother's death to take place? MR. : We had -- well, you know, we didn't really know how to really go about all this but, you know, trying to clarify what the heck really happened here, so we thought, "Well, the first thing we better do is call a lawyer." So we talked to Don Johnson and he got around to, "Well, how would we really find out exactly what happened," or whatever. And so the idea of an inquest came up and I don't think it was necessarily a serious possibility but Don Johnson said that he would ask and -- and -- about it. MR. RUEL: Okay. And do you know what happened? MR. : Oh, yeah, he did ask and -- and I believe we did get a reply, I think, that suggested that, "No, there wouldn't be an inquest." What we sort of expected in any case. MR. RUEL: And how did you react? MR. : Well then, we had to -- actually that -- after we left there, we really didn't

51 think about that really that much; we just had to go on to other matters because then it started to come out in the media and then that became the -- the next thing to deal with. MR. RUEL: So you mentioned the post-mortem examination report. Madam Clerk, if we could have Exhibit 0? (SHORT PAUSE/COURTE PAUSE) MR. RUEL: So, Mr. Seguin, I don't know if you have the document in front of you. I believe this is a report you were referring to. This is dated November and it was required by Dr. Conway, who was the coroner who handled the case, I guess. So you remember that document? MR. : Yes. MR. RUEL: You had -- this is the document that you had some concerns with. Your -- as you indicated you felt that it was -- rephrase, I guess, but you ve said it was not that detailed enough or it was not clear enough in your view. MR. : M hm. MR. RUEL: Okay. And then you made a complaint. I don t know if we can call this a complaint, but you ve raised concerns --- MR. : Yeah.

52 MR. RUEL: --- with the Chief Coroner s office about this post-mortem examination report? MR. : Yes, that s right. MR. RUEL: And this is Document Number. Sorry, before we go there, I m just going to ask you -- just in that document, the second-to-last page, at is Cause of Death and the pathologist there wrote, you know, on January th,. I m sorry, I have to correct the date because this report seems to be -- the report itself seems to be dated January th,, that that was attributed to hanging. So did you -- did you contest that conclusion in anyway? MR. : No, I don t think we -- it s just that we had some questions about what we saw. I think one of the things that in my own sort of experience, I had gone in there that night and there was some things that I was questioning myself. I saw -- there s a long railing going upstairs and it was all --- MR. RUEL: Upstairs? That s in Ken s house? MR. : That s right. And it was all bloody, straight all the way down on the railing and it looked like to me very even and as if it was wiped on. So I couldn t figure out, well, why would that be the case. And although I don t think I mentioned it in any complaint