- D A.M. 13 th JANUARY 1964 SULIMAN ESSOP XAC.

Transcription

1 - D A.M. 13 th JANUARY 1964 SULIMAN ESSOP XAC. Q. From evidence it appears that after Lobatsi conference you arranged for transportation of people for military training. Q. Lobatsi conference before June 1962? Q. Are you sure of it? A. I have no note of date it was early June. Q. I want to be sure that Lobatsi conference preceded trips. A. Conference first then Bantu s conveyed to border. I am sure of this. Q. This is matter easily established. BERRANGE: We can establish Lobatsi conference was Oct.62. A. As far as I can recollect it was June. I could be mistaken. I never made any notes. Know Star had photo of Kombi on front page can t say which month. As far as I can recollect Kombis went first for conference. It is possible that I could be mistaken. Whole of my evidence as to dates would be wrong if that is so. Walter Sisulu engaged me for conference Q. Conference after a number of trips for training? A. I don t know. Sisulu did not engage me for every trip various people did so Sisulu, Kathrada Nokwe did so Q. You are either confused about engagement or else you are deliberately not telling the truth. A. I am telling the truth. When I conveyed people I was more interested in money. Q. Did you think you were committing an offence? If I was arrested I would have said I was running a pirate taxi. If I had been asked about M.T. I would have kept quiet. Q. If police kept asking? A. I would eventually have to admit because passengers in Kombi would say where they were going. I was certain this was illegal. Q. Do you remember Magothi case in Regional Court? (reads: page in all this activity etc... A. I remember answer. If police stopped me I would say I was running a pirate taxi. (continues with record) ---- Only illegality A. My answer was that my only offence was a pirate taxi. I was not prepared to tell police I was taking soldiers. At back of my mind I thought I was committing an illegality. Q. Why did you tell Mag. this was not illegality. Was it truthful.

2 - D 2 As far as I was concerned it was not an illegality to convey these people. At back of my mind it was illegal. Q. Whole of evidence that told purpose for M.T. is untrue. A. No. I did give evidence that no illegality as far as I was concerned it was legal. It is illegal to take soldiers out. I said not illegal because people were in taxi. Today I think I was acting illegally. I said the opposite to the Magistrate. Q. In other case it appears that on every occasion you were told purpose was for soldiers? A. Yes on practically every occasion. Almost every occasion. On one occasion from corner house. (trip before we were arrested). Mbata brought Malangeni to my house. I can remember all trips. Q. Was it tenth occasion? A. I have not numbered them. I think it was occasion when Mbata took me to Malangeni s house Mbata said Kombis loaded and plane waiting at Francistown if he wants to leave straight away plane ready. fly them over to Kenya I gained impression they were for soldiers. On this occasion I was not told, but I gathered impression because plane waiting in Francistown. To be trained in Kenya and Tanganyika. I was told that soldiers were to be trained in Kenya and Tanganyika on almost every occasion. I don t know Kenya was a British colony. 1. After Lobatsi conference in June 2/3 weks later I conveyed passengers in two Kombis and van. No. 2 said to train as soldiers he did not mention Kenya. As far as I can recollect he said Kenya and Tanganyika as soldiers. 2. Second occasion: Modise engaged me 2 Kombis he said they were to be soldiers he did not mention Kenya and Tanganyika. I remember reference to Kenya by Sisulu because it was first convoy don t remember reference to Kenya on this occasion. 3. Kathrada October don t know when Lobatsi conference was K. said soldiers did not mention Kenya. 4. Nokwe Nov. 62 Nokwe told me to take them as far as border he did not say to train as soldiers. Only 4 occasions in 62 on which I was engaged to take people to border for purpose of becoming soldiers. K. said nothing about soldiers to be trained as soldiers in Kenya and Tanganyika. I don t rember if K. mentioned Kenya or Tanganyika. K. said they were going as soldiers. Nobody told me anything also on that occasion. Q. In evidence in chief you said No. 10

3 - D 3 mentioned this. A. Yes No. 10 told me this. K. told me they were going as soldiers No. 10 mentioned Kenya and Tanganyika. No. 10 told me this. Nokwe said we must take people to border they were to be trained as soldiers I must have slipped up if I said differently just now. Only 4 occasions that I had to take people to border in I gave evidence in Fodane case my evidence was truthful I gave evidence 3/4 mnths ago my memory better then my memory not refreshed since then. I don t remember what I said in Fodane case. Q. Did you say Sisulu engaged you alone to take soldiers in 1962? A. All I can remember is that Sisulu is first man. I don t remember saying Sisulu only person if I said it it was not true. I was engaged by various people to take people all over S.A., but that was before we took soldiers. BERRANGE: (Reads from page 14 of Fodane case refers to fact that 2 nd occasion was said to have been in August). Q. Has anybody asked you to change evidence to June? A. No. I could have gone in August I don t know months I don t remember why I said August. BERRANGE: WITNESS: (reads from record) It is correct I went up to office. Price was discussed when we took people to Lobatsi conference I knew the price. (reads on from record) After August etc. BERRANGE: Q. What was your reply? A. No- I don t remember. For second trip: I was engaged by Modise at my house. BERRANGE: You are guessing or saying things you were told to say (reads on from Fodana case) Q. Why did you say in Fodana case that W.S. engaged you at his office was it true? A. No. (goes on to deal with 3 rd trip:) K. engaged me that was Sep/oct 2 Kombis required. Q. Do you know what you said in Fodana case? A. No. (carries on from record) Q. Why did you say in Fodana case that W. engaged you? A. I don t know. On next occasion I was engaged by Nokwe. BERRANGE: WITNESS: (reads from evidence in Fodana case) Nokwe engaged me and W. Sisulu paid me next day. (puts what was said in Fodana case) Don t recollect if I said that. WITNESS: Q. Was it true or a lie? A. I don t know.

4 - D 4 I am sure Nokwe engaged me. (reads on from record) WITNESS: As far as I can recollect Nokwe engaged me and Sisulu paid me. Q. Is your memory fading? A. Not exactly. Q. Are you perhaps mistaken? A, No. Q. You are certain Nokwe engaged you and not Sisulu? A. Sisulu paid me. WITNESS: Evidence in Fodana case is false that Sisulu engaged me. K. engaged me on numerous occasions for meetings I can t remember when. (evidence in Fodana s case is put several times) Not mistaken that K. engaged me. I am giving truthful evidence today. I have changed my evidence since the Fodana case I have no reason and can suggest no reason for this. Nobody has induced me to change my evidence. I don t say evidence in Fodana case is the same. I may have made mistake in Fodana case. I went on to talk about Jan I said between Jan/May 1963 I took recruits to border. Q. How many loads? A. 3/4 - I don t remember. First: Malangeni engaged me on first occasion AND Mbata at my house. Q. Second: A. Mbata and Malangeni engaged me same for the 3 rd trip. Q. Next trip? A. 3/4 occasions on each occasion Malangeni and Mbata engaged me. To Lobatsi and BERRANGE: from there to Kenya and Tanganyika. Refers again to Fodana case. It was not true to have said that Sisulu engaged me. (Refers to St. Vz. Gquale). I remember evidence about Feb(?) trip. I don t remember whom I said it was that engaged me. Q. I remember 37 people. It is true that Sisulu engaged me in Feb I have just remembered now that Sisulu engaged me for 37 people. I remember giving evidence in St. vs. Fazzie. I don t remember what I said then. I gave evidence in Fazzie case that first trip was June did not change from August to June because the allegations in Fazze case was that people left in June. I don t remember the month. I was arrested on 10 June on the road on the way we were arrested at Rustenburg I was questioned by Police - I did not tell the police the truth. Q. Did police threaten to assault you? A. He never actually threatened he said I will give you one blow. As far as I can remember I said we were going to Zeerust I cannot recollect all that conversation taken to police station.

5 - D P.M. COURT: CHASKELSON: YUTAR: As far as I can remember when police stopped us they asked where we were coming from. I said left from Koster policeman threatened to assault me I then told Police we were going to Zeerust. I don t think I told police about soldiers then. Taken to police station from road I then told them the truth. I told police we were taking people to border. I can t recollect whether I told police about soldiers. (puts evidence in Matshabe s case) Can t recollect what I said. I was alone in cell for 66 days allowed out 3 times a day - ½ hr 10 mnts in afternoon. I first told police from Rustenburg to Pretoria about soldiers I am sure of that I don t remember if I said that in Matshabe s case I told I told Strumpher we were taking them to border as soldiers on way from Rustenburg to Pretoria... I don t remember whether I mentioned this in Matshabe case. I have not got a good memory. Statement taken after 10 days I told them everything I did not finish off statement finished off statement about 10 days before release. I completed statement about 10/15 days before release nothing to add. Balance of statement dealt with last convoy. (reads from Matshabe statement). I gave full details after 10 days then kept for another 56 days. Sgt. Strumpher told me my release depended in A.G. Finishing off of statement was NOT to put in Nokwe etc. Any re-examination Dr. Yutar? Don t want to waste time by asking more questions but all the accused put this witnesses evidence in issue. No re-examination (at this stage Court adjourns because Mr. Berrange is ill) 14 th JANUARY A.M. (Court informed that Jantjies NOT to be cross examined cross examination by Bruno to stand over). HARRY BAMBANE: I am at present a hard labour prisoner serving 2 yrs for leaving Republic without a passport. I was convicted in Regional Court. I come from Cape Town. I reached Std. 4 at school. I know about ANC. I joined it in 1955 at Kirkwood. I was enrolled by Thys Skonzane. After I joined organisation I attended meetings sometimes.

6 - D 6 Early in 1963 I was convicted of charge of assault. I served sentence in P.E.. After I was released from custody I went back to employer. I did not start work immediately. I took 14 days leave. I stayed in Kirkwood location. Q. Did you meet up with old friends? Q. Did you see Thys again? Q. After you saw Thys what happened? A. He called me to his home. He said he was looking for somebody to send to school in Tanganyika. I was not told what school was about. I made enquiries about when I had to sign on. He said nowhere that I had to sign on. He said if I did not want to go I would be an enemy of theirs. Q. Whose? A. Thys. Q. Only Thys? A. The whole organisation. Q. Which organisation. A. ANC. I agreed to go. I made no arrangements. Thys made arrangements. He got a cycle for me and took me to Tambrodie Mr. Niemand s place There Fundile Daya took me to Blue Klip Station. Q. Have you any idea of date you left? A. 7 th February Q. From Blue Klip; when did you go? A% Swartkop Station Port Elizabeth. Daya went with me. On arrival we went to his cousin in Zakele Location. We found her there alone. At about 1.p.m. we went to Swartkop Station. We stayed there and 6 others arrived. I did not know them. They were Xhosa men. After 6 joined us Daya took out 3 rd class tickets one ticket for 7 of us ticket was to Krugersdorp. We left for Krugersdorp I travelled under name Vuyisile Hebe that is a false name. I assumed that my real name had to be hidden in case arrested. I did not pay for train ticket. We arrived at Krugersdorp don t remember the date. 2 Bantu men arrived in a Packard car packard BY KROG: INTERPRETER Peugot. I thought he said Packard. 4 were taken to JHB and 3 including myself remained. I was later taken away with my companions in same car (owner also took me). I was taken to a location in JHB don t know name. Q. Did you meet up with 4 companions? Q. Did you stay in same location? A. We stayed together in evening and then taken to½ different places. I went to Private House. I did not see others next morning. We remained in 2 parties (4 and 3). We stayed the whole of Saturday for a few days then in night a Kombi arrived. I think Sunday. I don t know date. It was in February. Kombi came at about 8.p.m. Q. Did Kombi pick you up?

7 - D 7 Q. Were you first to get in? A. Others were already inside. Not original companions, I am not certain how many there were. We then moved off to border of Republic 3 Kombis altogether. Q. Did you meet any other Kombis? A. Yes saw them at border for first time ) i.e. Other 2 Kombis. Q. How many people in your Kombi? A. Approx. 15. Q. On arrival at border what happened? A. We got off and went into bush. All of us went to bush (other Kombis also) We went to bush because we saw motor vehicle approach from rear with lights on. Nothing happened car passed. 7 of us went on and crossed the border. We arrived at about 3.a.m. 37 of us crossed border. Q. In what manner? A. We went on foot 30 in front and 7 remained behind. Q. What happened thereafter? A. At about 4.am. other 7 of us crossed border we joined up with others. We sat down in bush at Lobatsi. Q. On outsirts of Lobatsi? A. No we got off the side of town. We stayed in bush until about 1.p.m. Q. How many in bush? A. 39 other two came in motor car. I had seen them before. Q. Did you see car that they arrived in? A. Same one that carried us in Krugersdorp Peugot. At about 1.p.m. we signed immigration papers then went back to bush. I gave name previously given. We returned to bush and stayed there for about 3 days. Then lorry came and took us away. I don t know anything about arrival. Just saw it there. We all were taken went to Zambesi river. In lorry was food and water. Before lorry came bread was bought for us by Joe Gquabi. Q. Was he in charge of your group? We all left by lorry and passed several townships until we arrived at Zambesi. We got there on 1 st March. We crossed Zambesi river by boat. I had no money on me at that time. After crossing river Joe Gquabe gave me 5 Rhodesian. Q. You were going to school? A. Yes at beginning. But in Bechuanaland I was called to one side by Joe Gquabe and told I was going for military training in Tangaynkia. Q. Were you told object? A. He did not explain. At Livingstone Joe Q. went to make arrangements for conveyance then Land Rover came we went in 3 groups to Livingstone. 3 groups came together on station platform at

8 - D 8 Livingstone. We were supposed to get train to Lusaka but we were arrested there. I still had 5 that Joe Q. gave me at river. Only 2 of us were not caught at Station. At that stage there were 35 in group. Q. What happened to other 2 who joined you at Lobatsi. A. They remained behind at Lobatsi. Other two who got away were arrested on same day the 37 then taken to Bulawayo then Beit Bridge We were then taken over by Republic police to Marabastad police station. then charged and convicted. Q. Bambane, did you know any people in your group originally 6 at Kirkwood? A. No I came to know them. I did not know anyone before but I came to know their names. Q. Anybody in charge of group? A. Yes three Joe Gquabe, Samson Fodana Henry Magothi. All three were charged and convicted on same offence. Q. You left in Kombi and saw 2 other Kombis? Q. Can you tell us who drivers were? A. An Indian drove one I was in. Other one I noticed was driven by a Coloured person third one I am not certain. I have an idea that he was also an Indian. Q. Will you be able to identify people again? Q. Look at man in Court (Suliman) A. I know him he is OWNER of Kombi I was in. I know other person. He was at the border and driver of other Kombi (Piet Coetzee)

9 - D 9 PIET COETZEE: Q. Piet, is jy n Kleurling? A. Ja. Q. Waar woon jy? A. Newclare. Q. Vir wie werk jy? A. Essop Suliman. Q. Watter werk doen jy? A. Dryf n Kombi. Q. Watter soort Kombi? A. Volkswagen. Q. Vire hoe lank? A. Vyf jaar. Ek ken Lobatsi in Bechuanaland ek was al daar ek kan nie onthou eerste keer ek was al baie keer dit was Q. Watter tyd van jaar? A. Middel van jaar witner. Ek het mense in Kombi gevat. Hulle het gegaan vir conference. Dit was ANC mense. Q. Hoeveel mense? A. 12 or 13. Conference was in privaat huis. Ek het open of geloop. Ek kon nie hoor wat hulle se.????? Een praat twee praat. Daar was in paar wat ek ken. Walter Sisulu No. 2. Ek het hom voor daardie tyd geken. Ek het laaste twee gesien (Nos. 9 & 10). Het hulle net daar gesien. Ook No. 4. Ek het hom nie vantevore geken. Ek het terrugekom na konferensie. Ek het mense opgelaai in Orlando. Ander in ANC office to Macosa huis. Ek het hulle afgelaai in due locations. Na daardie keer het ek weer na Lobatsi gegaan omtrent 2 weke na konferensie. Net na die border gegaan. Ek het manne gevat and afgelaai. Het hulle gekry by Orlando in dubbel story huis ek weet nie naam SK Bldgs 3 Kombis saamgery na border. Net drie vied voertuie. Q. Het jy ooit weer in Lobatsi gegaan? A. Ja. Q. Wanneer weer was dit? A. Sep/Oct/Nov ek weet nie. Dit was na die geleentheid van die mense wat ek afgelaai het. Weer vir in conference. Almal opgelaai in JHB. Weer No. 2, No. 4 en No. 9 en No. 10. Op daardie geleentheid was daar net een Kombi. Q. Het jy gehoor? A. Ja, ek het buitekant gesit. Toe conference oor was het ek teruggekom met passassiers. Twee keer na Lobatsi gegaan net twee. Ek het baie moai na border gegan. Ek tel mense

10 - D 10 op by Orlando en aflaai by border. Baie keer. Daar was 2/3/4 voerhuis. Daar was ander 2 Kombis and een van --- Q. Wie was bestuurders? A. Ek was een. Ebrahim was een (hy is dood) Gerald Lockman (Walter se Suski se seun het n Kombi bestuur ek praat van No. 2) Q. Nog n ander een A. Fox Q. Nog n ander? A. Dis al. Suliman het sam met my gery, Suliman het 3 voertuie 3 Kombis was syne toe een? Q. Van --- where did it come from? A.? Once 2 extra Kombis were hired. I first offload my people the others offloaded and passengers came together I don t know what passengers do. I put them off and turn round. Q. Do you know Joe Modise? He only went as far as borders. He was in a car he led the way in the car. I don t know what happened after I offloaded. He drove a Peugot car Mbata escorted them in Zephyr I don t know his first name. On one occasion he went in another Kombi. He went in A Zephyr sometimes a Peugot. I loaded people at Marabi garage through Orlando leader did it Mbata. Q. Anybody else? A. Joe Modise took us to SK Bldgs. There was another one but I don t know his name. We went to SK Bldgs and marabi garage to pick up people. I knew a few of the passengers. I know a few. Jantjies from Cape other one who gave evidence Baribane another few including my sister s child that is all Q. THese people whom you took to border did they have reference books? A. They were taken away. Q. By whom? A. Mbata did it in my presence. He did it in JHB just when we were pulling away. He handed it over to another man BUT he is NOT here. I don t know his name. Q. Do you know where they were going? A. Mbata said Tanganyika, Dar-es-Salaam Kenya. I saw a photo of people in paper. Especially in The World. On first occasion we took 37. That was before last conference. That is an occasion between two occasions we went to Lobatsi. I was caught by police on last occasion in On that occasion there were 4 Kombis. A Zodiac car in which Mbata travelled Two cars were caught at Zeerust one at Groot Marico other caught next day at Zeerust. I don t know man from SK Bldgs. Only person

11 - D 11 I saw or knew at SK was Modise last occasion I took a group from Mandela s house near police station I was taken there by man with glasses. I don t know his name he was with Mbata... I know No. 2 as Walter Sisulu I don t know names of No.s 4, 9 and 10. (shows him exhibit D) No. 1 is Mandela I know him he was an attorney only respect I know him I saw him on many occasions with at hers but I don t know what he did. No. 2 is Sisulu. No. 3 is Goldreich I have seen him many times at Macosa House. He looks like Wolpe. No. 4. The top one is No. 10. The bottom one is No. 10. The top one I don t know. No. 5. Is that Indian accused No. 5 went with Essop on one occasion to his house. No. 6. I don t know. No. 7. I don t know. No. 8 is Goldreich top one both are No. 9 I don t see him I know him. No. 10 I don t know. No Goldreich both of them. 6 I found with them and a few times in Crt. I saw him in Macosa House. No. 12 I don t know. No. 13 I don t know No. 14 is an old man who lives in Norwood I don t know his name. I know him from Norwood at party. No. 15 I don t know. No. 16 Wolpe the one that got away with Goldreich. No. 17 I don t know. No. 18 I don t know. No. 19 I don t know. No. 20 Is the agent Nokwe. No. 21 I don t know. No. 22 Chief Lethuli Albert No. 23 I don t know his name. No. 24 that Indian he also ran away the top photo I don t know his name No. 27 I know him he is agent Nokwe No. 29 I don t know him. NO. 30 I don t know. No. 32 bottom one is Mandeal No. 33 is accused No. 5 No. 34 I don t know

12 - D 12 CASWELL ZIKLE NBOXELE Q. Where do you come from? A. The Cape. Q. Which part? A Nganga East Q. How old are you? A. 21. Q. Did you go to school? Q. What standard? A. I passed Std. 6. Q. Did you belong to any organisation? A. No. Q. Events last week in Dec. 62 do you know Mamre? Q. Wehn did you first hear about it? A. I first came to hear about it on Xmas. Q. From whom? A. Teddington Nquaby. Q. What did he have to tell you? A. He said would be a picnic on 26 th did not say place. Q. How long did picnic endure? A. he said about one week nothing specific said at time. I was told I could bring extra sheets and trousers not to worry about food. I had to pay lot for transport. He said if I was prepared to go I should come to his place. I was prepared to go. I went to his place next day. I went alone. Q. On arrival who did you find? A. I found him and Sindine. Q. Anyone else arrive? A. After that we went to another house where there was another group it was an empty house we found ---- Mbanjwa Monuruse (don t know his second name) Wilson Martin another cahp whose name I forget. Q. How many altogether? A. 4. YUTAR: That makes 7 WITNESS: No altogether we were 6. We went to Ngangi terminus on foot and waited for another group; from Ngangi West I don t know how many a motor car arrived --- I don t know driver s name taken by car to Mowbray station found another group there supposed to be from Langa we found a man with beard Ngudle waited for N/West group to be fetched Looksmart - He was there when we arrived. Whilst other gang was being fetched we got on to lorry on Looksmart s instructions. At that stage there were about 17 of us in all. We waited on lorry for other group. They arrived soon afterwards 6 in this group altogether about 23. When we were on the lorry a European came (I did not know him) wearing glasses he stopped at door. Looksmart said that is one of

13 - D 13 our comrades Denis Goldberg. I can identify him if I see him. I don t see him in Court. (points out Bizos) COURT: Stand at door who is the man? WITNESS: I still say Bizos. YUTAR: Look in box where accused are? (he now points out No. 3 and says he looks like Bizos) Q. How was Looksmart dressed? A. Soldiers overcoat and cap that comes over side of head then type of bag that soldiers use straps over shoulders and bag on back. Q. Did groups have baggage, luggage, utensils? A. Each one had blanket, plate, spoon and a rug. Q. In this lorry did you see anything else? A. There was a tent folded up. Q. Do you know how many? A. Just one. Q. What happened after Looksmart introduced you to No. 3. A. He greeted us and went towards front of lorry I think he got in because lorry pulled away. Just one lorry driven to Landsdown where we found others who were there 4 tents were loaded on also tent poles also what appeared to be a motor car engine. They said we are going. Q. Do you know whose house this was? A. When I made enquiries I was told it belonged to Cardiff Marney. We loaded more people there. not many about 5 altogether we were about 28. We went along road to Mamre there European gave instructions for tents to be taken down and erected. Then lorry went back and he went away with lorry. We went to trees where we put up tents we had no food we got hungry we noticed a farm house nearby where we got peaches. Q. Who gave instructions while No. 3 was away? A. Looksmart. Q. What? A. To put up tents for instance. Q. When you came back from peaches expedition what did you find? A. Lorry arrived again we were told tent was in wrong place a messenger told us we put tents in place pointed out to us open place with one tree higher up. Q. Could road be seen from this point? A. No bushes obstructed the place where we were. Q. Did you see No. 3 again after peaches. A. Yes when I came back he was there. Q. Who else was with you? A. Cyril Davids a coloured man with beard. Q. Who else? A. Joe somedoby not sure of surname. Cardiff Marney was there. After tents put up we were paraded by D. Goldberg and divided into spans we were told to call each other comrades he was to be

14 - D 14 Comrade Commander each span to have a Comrade Sgt there were 4 in each span there were 6 spans with reserves as well. Looksmart was Sgt. of his span. Q. What else did No, 3 tell you? A. He said this was the camp of the Congress. Q. Anything else on whose instructions it was arranged? A. He said others of higher authority gave him instructions also other camps in S.A. Q. Did he give any designation to higher authorities? A. No he did not mention just said above him. Did not say where they were located. Q. Did he say purpose of camp. A. We were to be taught at camp? Q. Taught what? A. First Aid etc. Q. Was it boyscount education etc what was purpose? A. He said camp was to be under strict discipline anybody who committed wrong was to be punished, COURT: Did he say what object of camp was? A. To help ourselves when we had to fight. Q. With whom? A. White people. He did not say when but said it would be in the near future. Q. Were you given any instructions how did you stand in line? A. In line. Q. At ease? A. No attention. Q. Who taught you that? A. Somebody instructed us how to stand at ease and at attention. Q. Any other instructions? A. We were told some groups had to provide water etc. Q. What about instructions as to training? A. We were told we were to be trained in Judo. Q. No. 3 was Commdt. In charge of camp any deputy? A. Cardiff Marney was assistant in his absence. Sindele was my Sgt. Q. What were you to be taught were you told told us about 1 st Aid why 1 st aid. A. To assist and treat comrades who get injured. Q. Where would he get injured? A. When we were at war with whites. - also Judo Q. What was said about Judo? A. We would have to be able to defend ourselves if for instance attacked by bayonets. - also car engine Q. For what purpose? A. So that we could repair car if it gets defective Q. When? A. When fighting took place. Q. Were you told of anything else? A. Telephones

15 - D 15 Q. For what purpose? A. So that a person who notices anything he can use telephone. Q. For picnic or what? A. Not for picnic. Q. Which others then? A. In time of war when you have to convey to comrades at time of war and have to use a telephone. Q. What would you have to say in time of war. A. The position of the enemy. (also bottles filled with water) Supposed to make petrol bombs not to be taught that then because we were too many. Q. Who told you about these bottles. A. No. 3. Q. Did you see bottles? A. Yes they had water. Q. How maney? A% I did not count them there were many. Q. Did he say for what purpose bombs to be used? A. Yes when we fight. Not to be taught about bombs because too many when people are taught one person would have to be taken at a time and taught persons woul,d take others to teach. Purpose was so that person who was being taught who would not know who taught the teacher. (also typing) Q. What about typing? A. So that you will be able to use typewriter. Q. For what purpose? A. If you want to tell people what to be done later. No other machine apart from typewriter. YUTAR: Typewriter only does one or two at a time. A. No, you roll. I don t know what it is called put a paper in and turn it. Q. What comes out? A. Writing on the paper. Not taught anything further about it. Was such a machine at the camp. DON t remember any other instruction. Q. First day was 26 th December? Q. What did you do in evening and on whose instructions we were to go Q. No that night? A. No nothing that was worthwhile taking down we had to take down notes on liberation or freedom of those countries that had already obtained freedom. Q. Any country mentioned specifically? A. Like Congo, Cuba those are two I remember. Q. Can you recall any other names? A. Overseas? Q. No African Continent.

16 - D 16 A. Ghana Congo Cuba. I can t recall any others. On Boxing night no news of importance. Q. Why did you have to listen to news on liberation? A. I don t know I did not ask why. Q. Anything else done that night? A. Sang. Q. Did you listen to Jazz records? A. No Xhosa songs Sanlandeka o Lethuli I am unable to translate into English. INTERPRETER: Follow, follow, Lethuli. Q. Any other? A. Yesa Yesa Mandela Come, Come Mandela. Q. Any other songs? A. I cannot name them now. Q. These are songs you sang. Q. What was common feature of songs? A. I cannot say I was just taught to sing. Q. Did you listen to records? A. No records were played. sang until 10.p.m. Q. Any precautions taken before you retired? A. Yes No. 3 said there must be 2 guards who had to change over until morning. Q. Guards what purpose? A. For thieves, police etc. If police arrived they had to wake others with whistle. Q. What happened next day, 27 th December 62? A. In morning we had P.T. Q. Who wake you? A. The guards. No. 3 was in charge. Q. Any reason for P.T.? A. So that we could be fit. Q. For what purpose? A. When we fight. Q. Fight who? A. The White people. Some prepared food while we did P.T. Q. What happened after breakfast? A. We went to big tree that was there that was looked upon as our school. First lecture was in First Aid by No. 3. Q. Any use made of anything? A. He showed us how to treat a person who had fallen and been injured who had got a wound. Q. Was lecture illustrated in any way? A. Yes skeleton on tree was used. Lecture lasted 2 hrs after that there was lecture on engine by Cardiff Marney lasted for 2hrs in afternoon we had lecture on telephone Cyril Davids gave lecture. Two telephones one put some distance away on to tree other some distance away two people would speak to each other. This lasted for 2 hrs. Q. Anybody allowed to test telephone?

17 A. If anybody wanted to ask questions he was allowed to do so and get explanation.

18 - D 17 I was not interested in telephone because I was supposed to be on a picnic lecture also lasted 2 hrs. Next lecture was on Judo by Cyril Davids we were shown how to hit with hand on side of neck. Q. With what effect? A. A particular spot had to be hit ie. shown where. Q. What would effect be? A. He will receive a shock. Q. Result will be? A. It will cause him to fall. (lecture lasted about 45 mnts) Q. Did you listen to radio that night? Q. Anything of interest? Q. The gang, was Looksmart s group that had to listen. A. I was not with them. Looksmart addressed us about Tshombe who was selling his country to the white people we were told by L. not to do such a thing. If a person was caught doing that, better off to kill himself. (Byplay between Yutar and Krog as to Looksmart s question put again) WITNESS: Would be better off to kill himself after he had given such information. If police came nobody was to give information. Not to say anything until you had contacted your lawyer. This was taught by L. After that No. 3 made speech. No. 3 was present when L. spoke. Q. Did No. 3 make any reference to what L. said? Q. What did he say? A. He said a person must not agree at all to give any infromation to police. Also said that what L. said about Tshombe was correct. We people of COD are living in difficulties because we are not wanted by whites or Xhosas although we are on side of Xhosas. Q. Did he enlarge on that topic? A. He read out of a book by Fidel Castro. Q. Did he say in whose favour COD was? A. Yes he said COD was on side of Xhosas. He read out of book on Castro I don t know books title. Fidel Castro liberated Cuba. Q. In what way? A. Bu guerilla war. Q. Did he go on to explain why he mentioned this? A. He said it was difficult in S.A. to fight guerilla warfare because bush too thick. He said if we listen to him we could fight and get through. Q. Anything else to say? A. After that they sang again. Q. Was singing any different? A. Same as before. Q. When you got lecture on engine was it illustrated in any way? A. Yes there were diagrams and engine. Q. Friday the 28 th? did events differ in any way as far as lectures were concerned?

19 - D 18 A. Yes same things First Aid etc also radio. Q. Was Tshombe mentioned again? A. No Nanina from Nyanga spoke abut Lumumba. Q. What did he say? A. Way he was killed by Tshombe. We were told to stand together not to sell each other out. Q. To the white people? A. Word used is not to commit treason to your own people. No. 3 was present when N. spoke. Q. Did he speak? A. After that speech he told a Coloured person to read out of a book. Q. Did No. 3 make any reference to what N. said? A. Yes more or less the same thing. Coloured person who read was Jonas April. I don t know name of book not Fidel Castro I don t know what it dealt with. 29 th December had lesson on First Aid and engine. Whilst Marney was lecturing on engine a small European arrived. Q. Was he introduced? A. Yes No. 3 introduced him as Abie Sacks. Q. Was it Albie or Abie? Q. Yes Elbie Sachs was to lecture to us on politics. Q. Did he do so? A. He told us about exports and imports. We must now make this country a country of the working people. Q. In what way? A. After we got our freedom. Q. What did working people have to do? A. All work together all money put together and all people would be equal. YUTAR: All share equally? A. Yes even in money. Q. Any reference to wealth of S.A. and its position in the political world? A. He explained that as S.A. is now people don t get same share of income it is country with people in high positions that are above others. (ADJOURNMENT) 2. P.M. Q. After he completed his lecture did Cardiff Marney complete his lecture? A. No before he finished one coloured and one white policeman arrived at scene came from board spoke to Goldberg and Sachs. Q. After that did anybody come and report to you? A. Yes No. 3 told us we had no permission from Board to be at that place. COURT: Which Board is this? A. I think it is in Local area. No. 3 said he would speak to police this member of Board to get permission to say there. In any case we were to stay until Monday.

20 - D 19 Q. Any instructions as to what to do? A. We were told to burn notes we had made. Q. Only notes? A. Some of the documents they read out of Q. Did you in fact do so? A. A fire was made and all was burned. Q. Did No. 3 contribute anything to fire? A. Yes certain papers. Q. What happened to Fidel Castro book? A. He burnt that too. Q. Where was Sachs when this happened? A. He had not left yet. Q. Was anything then removed from camp? A. Typing machine was put onto vehicle by 3 people roneo machine. Q. Whose vehicles? A. Sachs. Q. On whose instructions? A. I don t know. Q. Where was Sachs? A. He was present. While this was being done 5 policeman arrived telephone equipment taken by the police. Asked to whom it belonged. No. 3 told Cyril Davids to say he had borrowed equipment from his employers. Q. Was he to give any explanation as to why he had brought them to camp. A. I don t know. 5 police took No. 3 and Davids away. Q. And Sachs? A. He remained behind. Q. Did No. 3 come back? A. After that Sachs went away then large number of police came back with No. 3, Sachs and all of them. Q. At this stage was any further advice given? A. Yes by Cardiff Marney. Q. Only C.M.? A. Yes he gave instructions and Looksmart interpreted. He said Comrade Commdt had been arrested we could do no more food could be cooked and we could play football. After that large number of police came we had our names taken. Q. Any instructions as to what to do if approached by police? A. Not to say anything without seeing lawyer told this by No. 3. Q. What to say if asked what you were doing? A. Told to say that Looksmart had invited us for picnic. Q. What to do if assaulted by police? A. Not say anything no matter what they did. Q. Told what consequences would be if anyone spoke to police? A. We would all be in danger. Q. Of? A. Of being arrested, told this by No. 3. I carried out these instructions this was Saturday we stayed on at the camp until Sunday.

21 - D 20 Q. Did you receive instructions on Sunday? A. No. 3 said we must not say anything. We agreed. Q. Any provisions as to what would happen if arrested and kept in custody? A. We will be defended by lawyers. Q. Who said that? A. Comrade Cmmdt. Q. Who would pay for lawyers? A. I don t know. Lorry that brought us there came to fetch us on Sunday. No. 3 was with us on back of lorry. He said we may have opportunity to have another picnic. He did not say when. Q. Waw this a picnic? A. It was a picnic of that sort. Q. Any further approaches in 1963? A. Teddington invited me to another picnic but I refused. Q. Anybody else approach you thereafter? A. Yes in May 1963 Looksmart approached me He said again a picnic of that sort I refused to go. (CROSS EXAMINATION RESERVED)

22 - D 21 ISAAC RANI: Convicted on the in the Pretoria Regional Court and sentenced to 2 yrs imprisonment for leaving Republic without passport. I will be 38 this May. I come from the Cape. Nganga East. Q. During 1962 did you join any organisation? Q. Which? A. African Youth League. Q. Is it associated with ANC? A. I don t know. Q. What was subscription? A. Only entrance fee of 2/6 Q. Do you know Qunbela? A. I do. Q. What can you tell us about him? A. He told me about a school. He said there was a school for A.Y.L. Q. Did he say where? A. No. Q. What was nature? A. School where you learn. Q. Did he invite you to go? A. Yes, I know Jantjies well he also went to school. Q. Did you eave home? Q. When? A th June 1962 Q. Anybody give you instructions? Q. Who? A. Ngustle or something. I don t know other name. Q. What were instructions? A. He gave us money and tickets and said we will get other instructions in JHB. Q. Any symbol given to recognize you? Black ties and armbands. We had to put them on when we arrived so that we could be recognized. Q. Who accompanied you? A. 3 of us me, Jantjies and Goodman (No. 20) Q. Who were you to see in JHB? A. We were not told. Q. Were you given any addresses in JHB? Q. Who wrote address and where? A. It was written out by Ngushle Q. When was it written? A. On the inside of the container of a small packet of cigarettes. Q. What was written? A. Commisser St. Commercial Trading Co. 398? Q. Who did you have to show this to? A. Khandilale Moodley.

23 Q. On arrival in JHB did you have to refer to anybody? A. Joe Slovo. Q. Who told you this? A. Ngushle.

24 - D 22 - Q. When did you have to phone? A. We were not told just given name. We arrived in JHB on Thursday 14 th June. Q. Were you met? A. No. Q. Did you have black bands? Q. What did you do? where did you go? A. We left station saw policeman asked for taxi. Q. Where did you go? A. To commissioner St. address. Q. Were any names of persons mentioned part from Moodley? Q. What names? A. Jack Hodgson and Walter Sisulu. Q. Did you know either of these persons? A. No. I arrived at Commercial Trading Co. we met Moodley there. Q. Did he make report? A. He said Sisulu was sick. Q. And Hodgson? A. He was not there. Q. Did he make arrangements? He brought Kumalo to su. Kumalo took us to Marabi Hotel Q. On arrival there did you meet anybody? Q. Who? Europeans or non-europeans? A. Owner of hotel. Q. Apart from that? A. We met Xhosas. Q. How many? A. 11 or 12. Q. Where did they come from? A. P. Elizabeth. Q. Anywhere else? A. Durban. Q. Where were they going to? A. We were not told we were taken to another bldg. Q. What names do you recall? A. Ngenzile Nkaba another one is Bhengu. Q. Do you know first name? A. No. Q. Philemon Bhlela Mathews Ncobo (43) Eric I am not sure of his other name Alfred Khonza Maxwell Mayesa Ernest Malgas John Zuza (38) Q. Is that only name you knew him by A. He had a nickname Asandi

25 Matthews Makalena (19) Mc Donald Marsala (22) Q. How long did you stay there? A. I think 2 full weeks left in 3 rd week. Q. Why were you kept so long?

26 - D 23 A. They did not say only told we were waiting others from Bloemfontein 5 from Bloemfontein came I don t know their names when they came we were taken to a double story bldg. Q. Was it a shop or a house? A. from the side it looked like a house. Q. Who did you meet there? A. Two were there when we arrived I don t know their names. Q. Young Bantu? A. Two men and some youngsters. We were there just for a short while. I see exh. U this is bldg I was talking about Q. Did you leave bldg. eventually? Q. When? A. About 8.p.m. Q. Were you given any instructions? A. No. Q. Anybody see you off? Q. Who? A. Joe Moise. Q. How did you leave bldg? A. Two Kombis and Panel van. Q. Any instructions as to what to say if stopped? A. No. Q. Anybody remain behind? Q. Who? A. Elias. Q. Did Elias speak to you or group? A. When we were at Marabi Hotel he asked if complaints. Q. Would you recognize him? I can see him. Q. Where? A. Accd. No. 9. Q. How many left on this trip? A. 30 except the drivers. We drove through the night to Bechuanaland. We stopped at Lobatsi Q. Did you cross border by van? A. NO. Q. Any argument as to stopping place? A. Yes between Modise and driver. The driver was the Indian. Modise asked Indian why he stopped so close this is not first time you have been here driver begged his pardon. We got off and luggage packed in Kombi which I was travelling. Q. Did anybody meet you on other side? A. Modise went with as far as Lobatsi. We travelled a long distance by foot, by train eventually we arrived final destination. Q. Where? A. Tangyanyika. Q. Who made provision for food, tickets, pocket

27 - D 24 Money etc? A. Joseph Jack made all the arrangements. Q. Did you get anything from Modise? A. Yes he gave us 11 each We arrived at ANC offices at Dar-es-Salaam we saw Tambo there also Radebe Zensile Ngala. Q. Did they speak to you? A. No to Joseph Jack. Q. From there you went to? A. Ethiopia Da-Bra-Zid. Q. Do you know Tennyson Makiwane? Q. How did you know him? A. From Dar-es-Salaam. Q. Did he speak to group? Photos were taken at Dar-es-Salaam by Joseph Jack. Q. Did any of men tell you where you were going? Q. Who? A. Tennyson Makiwane he said we were going to Ethiopia to be trained he did not say for what purpose. I know Henry Fazzie Q. Did anybody give instructions or message through you to Fazzie? Q. Who? A. Oliver Tambo. Q. What was message? A. He said that Fazzie must be told that he must take group of 5 and hand them over to Mc Donald and ---- We met Fazzie at Nairobi. He was with Zani (don t know full name) Toni. Sandy Lingale (39). Jananie? (9) Q. Did they join your group? We arrived at Da-Bra-Zid by aeroplane met by Capt. Marmo he was the camp capt. there he was a Xhosa as well. Q. Is Captain his name or rank? A. B y rand he is a soldier. Q. Who else met you at plane? A. His Lt. Govana Q. Where were you taken? A. To camp it was a soldiers camp there were about 20 in our group we used false names. My name was Papier Mashwa. Q. Did you know how long course would last? Q. Who told you? A. Capt. Demisa. Q. Also Xhosa? Q. How long? A. 3 months.

28 Q. What were you to be taught?

29 - D 25 A. Yes we were taught what we were told (HERE FOLLOWS A DESCRIPTION OF WHAT WAS TAUGHT). After training we were told to sign papers that we were to be instructors. Q. To instruct whom? A. He did not say when or whom to instruct in what we learnt. Q. Did you have to show documents to anybody? A. They said they would send them on to Tambo. We took travel documents issued to us by O. Tambo. To travel to Ethiopia. Not given documents to come back. I had documents on me some other documents as well with notes. Q. What was colour of exercise book? A. It was black with red edges we went back to Tanganyika by plane. Q. On arrival at Dar-es-Salaam who did you meet? A. No one there we sent Mc Donald and Ngande to ANC offices. As result James Radebe and Zenzile? came to airport they took us to office we stayed about 2 days. They were preparing place for us. Q. Were you awaiting anyone else? A. No just to prepare place. Only visited by Tambo. Q. House you went into at Dar-es-Salam who occupied it? A. We did not got to house but to office. After 2 days to a house were people there when we came also Xhosas did not say where they were going. Did not return with us. There were about 52 people including ourselves. We left this place to come back to S.A. O.T. told us we are going back we left by bus. Q. What instructions were you given? A. We were going to Palapye Q. Any instructions? A. Said we would get there at Palapye. We were arrested in Rhodesia before Plapye. Tennyson said throw documents away if arrested. We left for Palapye given money by Tambo. Got to Southern Rhodesia when we were caught at Bulawayo by police and handed over to authorities. Certain documents found on me. I appear on photo in Exh. E COLLECTION NAME: Rivonia Trial Collection COLLECTION NUMBER: AD1844 ITEM NUMBER: A7.1 DOCUMENT: D1 - D25: Evidence by: Suliman Essop, Harry Bambane, Piet Coetzee, Caswell Zikle Nboxele, Isaac Rani LEGAL NOTICES This document is part of a private collection, the Rivonia Trial Collection, donated to Historical Papers at The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg.

30 Copyright Notice: All materials on the Historical Papers website are protected by South African copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, or otherwise published in any format, without the prior written permission of the copyright owner. Disclaimer and Terms of Use: Provided that you maintain all copyright and other notices contained therein, you may download material (one machine readable copy and one print copy per page) for your personal and/or educational non-commercial use only. Because of the possibility of human and mechanical error as well as other factors, the University is not responsible for any errors or omissions and excludes any and all liability for any errors in or omissions from the information on the website or any related information on third party websites accessible from this website.