1962?- I say that was the instruction given from time

Transcription

1 -82- K. MDWAYI This report was made to you by a person other than Govan Mbeld., shortly before your arrest?--- It was again made by somebody else. That the contents of this report make it quite clear that this is the first time you heard about? --- At the time it was only put, in 1962, we were always being told to be ready, but now in 1963, the time you are referring to, is the time that a time limit was put of three weeks. Then it was now serious. Now, when did Mini become a member of the 10 committee?---in With you, before or after you?---i was appointed into the committee and Govan Mbeki came up to Johannesburg. I was already in the committee, and when Govan Mbeki came back to Port Elizabeth, Mini was also invited to the meeting, and his appointment was also confirmed. When, in what month did Mini become a member of the committee, more or less?--- It might have been October, the same year. 20 What year? And you told his lordship yesterday, that you were asked by Mhlaba and Accused No, 1 to make records of police stations? Is that correct?--- We were not asked to make records, but to study how many police stations there are in the region under our control. And did you agree that you should do that? ---We agreed. And was it done?- It was not done, because we had not yet organised all the region that was put 30 under our control.

2 -83- K. MDWAYI. Now, you know I wanted to give you an opportunity to explain this, because I am going to suggest to his lordship in argument that you are not telling the truth. Do you remember that you were cross-examined in the previous trial, as to when and for wkat reasons, you were disheartened by the organisation that you had joined? Do you remember that?---would you repeat the question? You were questioned at some length in the previous trial as to the reasons why and the time when, you became disilliusioned, dissatisfied with the organi 10 sation that you you had joined?--- The time.,.. Yes, and the reasons?---yes, I can recall that. Now, this cross-examination went on for a great number of pages, and I do not want to burden the record with them, but perhaps,..can you remember the reason that you gave to his lordship in the Eastern Distri cts?*-~-that t,,, As to why you became disillusioned with this organisation that you had joined?---the reason was that 20 when I joined this organisation, I took it that it was going to be an woulr) be in line with the same organisation to which I belonged, as the African National Congress, May, I just stop you there for one moment please? If you do not mind? Would you allow me please? Now, you were a man of peace, and that was the policy of the organisation that you b^-1onged to?*---yes, Now, if your evidence is correct today, then in October, 1962, you were told that this organisation that 30

3 -84- K. MDWAYI So you had now joined, was going to cause a revolution?--- Yes, that is true. And from the time that you joined the organisation to the time of your arrest, you knew that you were in an organisation that was to cause a revolution? Yes. Now, I want to cut this short, I want you to please tell me whether you said this at page y09. You are dealing with the return of Wilson from Johannesburg, and you were asked "Do you mean when you...(quotes) I could not just turn about within a day". Did you say that?---yes. How does this "bear up with your knowledge that there was going to be a revolution from October, 1962?- I say that was the instruction given from time to time and I say the difference was the time limit, because from all the time, even from the political side of the organisation, we would always put a date in order to encourage the membership, that 1963 or 1962 is the last year of our struggle, the following year we would be free. 20 But when now, it came to this bombs being made and the time limit of three w'<=ovo *-v,o-n t decided that this thing was now becoming serious. Look, let me just summarise the position, despite what you have said In the previous trial you did not say anything as having been told by Govan Mbeki, and at the time that you joined of a revolution in the near future and strikes in the Western Cape. Do you agree with that?---secsus^ "r "ss Uuesti onpd in connection with Govan Mbeki. 30 But you had not said it? And when you were

4 -85- K. MDWAYI suggested Napam(?) and Cocktails, and he also/that a man who used to work under Strachan Benson, Fihla, should also not be left idle. We must make use of him, because of his absence in the organisation, we will take a long time to know all these bombs, and yet we have trained people that are idle in the location. Then after that, we also discussed branch matters of our region, after which Govan Mbeki now, gave us this instruction of increasing our members and preparing for this revolution. So, that you remained in this movement from 10 the latter months of 1962 until you were arrested in June, 1963, having been told of the chactic revolution that was to take place?---yes. Did you substitute in this Court, Accused No, 1 for.raymond Ehlaba, in reporting what has been said to you when they came to Port Elizabeth?---1 am not. page 679? Is this what you said about that visit, on "And what was the discussion?---raymond Mhlaba put it to us that they were sent by the National High Command of Umkonto We Ziswe...(quotes)...of everything 20 in Johannesburg". Is that what you said?---i said it. Do you agree that in this Court you have Substituted Accused No. 1 and said he made the report, for Raymond Mhlaba?--- I will put it like this - if you would allow me. Carry on?---raymond Mhlaba is more brainy than Accused No. 1. and all. More?--- He is more brainy and education A little less intelligent than you, no doubt? Yes, he is more than myself too,

5 -86- K. MDWAYI* Oh, I see?- When they arrived in Port Elizabeth, Raymond Mhlaba, wanted the reports from us and we submitted the report. Then Accused No. 1 addressed us on the studying of police stations, and how they were trained, climbing stiff mountains like this wall, as guerillas. We are going to come to that. Do not anticipate my question, because... BY THE OOURT TO MR. BIZOS: He is not anticipating your question Mr, BLzos, he is telling you what happened? 10 (Further discussion ensues between Court and Mr. Bizos on the subject \ BY THE COURT TO WITNESS: In the previous trial, you were telling us what part Accused No. 1 played?--- Accused No, 1 also told us that Ramond Mhlaba has been put on the head of the High Command in Johannesburg, because of the experience the two of them had in the guerilla and all the revolutionary movements, and the training they received, and all the monies here in Johannesburg, were also placed under Raymond s command, and as such we can always write 20 to the National Executive, and propose that we have got friends who are prepared to steal for us ammunition, guns and rifles, because we only had three at the time of their arrival, and they said that we should try and buy as many as we can, and Accused No. 1 said that we should write to the headquarters. Raymond Mhlaba will be in a position to propose to the gentlemen in Johannesburg that we should get the money, so that we can get as many arms as we can afford, because we had no rifles, no pistols and they wanted us to go and bomb a 30 place that is guarded by some people who are armed.

6 K. MDWAYI. So Accused No, 1 came out now with that suggestion that we should study the police stations, because we would take the jalice at the stations "by surprise, and we will manage to get as many rifles as we can, AT THIS STAGE THE COURT ADJOURNS FOR TEA, ON RESUMING; K Q U S I L E MDWAYI, still under oath CROSS-EXAMINATION BY M R, KEZOS (CONTINUED): Now, I do not want to take up too much of his lordship s time n the question that I had asked you 10 before you gave that very lengthy explanation. Do you remember I asked you whether it was Mhlaba or Accused No. I, who had made a statement or a report to you, and you said No, it was Accused No. 1. I want to put to you that what probably did happen, was that Mhlaba did the talking, having due regard of what you said at page 679 in the other trial. Do you still insist that it was No. 1?- I insist that it was No. 1. Now, do you also agree that in the previous trial you did not mention that you were told anything about 20 police stations by either Mhlaba or Accused No. 1, Do you agree with that?---i say it was said by Accused No. 1, Now, just try and listen to the question please - do you agree that at the previous trial you did not say that you were asked to study police stations, by Mhlaba or Accused No. 1?---Mhlaba gave us the report,,.i mean wanted the report from us. BY THE COURT;Just listen to the question - the question is whether you admit, that when you gave the evidence in the Eastern Province, you did not say that either Raymond 30 or Accused No. 1 gave you these instructions about the police

7 s & o ; K. KDWAII. stations?* 'I might have not said it, because the two of them were giving us everything. No one was in charge of saying anything, so Accused No, 1, in the question of the police stations, it was out of his mouth, C ROSS-EXA MINATION BY MR. BEZOS (CONTINUED); Now, do you remember that I asked you before the short adjournment, whether you knew that there was going to be this terrible bloody revolution that was to start from the Cape with foreing intervention, from the time that you became a member of the committee?---i knew 10 it as soon as I was a member of the committee. The only difference >& +v,ei+ wh r> Khayj.neo ^ad come to Johannesburg in the middle of last year, they now brought a different picture to the scene when they gave us a time limited* Of three weeks?---of three weeks. And that was in May, 1963?---Yes. Now, where did you get the date October from for the revolution?---october? Yes?---Which October? 20 You menti'"-'^ revolution was going..ace in October? BY THE COURT; No, he ssid he learnt in October, 1962, that there will be a revol'riiion in (Mr. Bizos replies). CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR, HEZOS (CONTINUED); So, you were expecting a rew ' 1 on in June, 1963, three weeks after that?- On that I would say v/ilson Khayingo came from Johannesburg, about the end of Mav So between June and July, something as their report, would 30 have taken place.

8 -83-*//, K. MBWAYI.? U c ) Was any reaons given as to why you study the police stations?--- Yes, it was given. should What was the reason?---the reason was that the police stations, were going to he the first targets that were to he attacked, so that the African people should have at least ammunition to start the revolution. And it was understood that your committee would do this, was it?---pardon? Was it 'understood that your committee would do this work?---yes. 10 And who did the talking - Mhlaba or Accused No, 1?- Accused No. 1. Accused No, 1 did the talking?--- Yesi Not Mhlaha?---No, Now, was any other report ever made to you in connection with police stations by anybody?---are you referring now to Accused No. 1 and Mhlaba, or anything... Anyone else?---that I cannot remember. You see, I am going to put to you that you had again transferred things that you said in the previous 20 trial that were said and done by others, to Mbeki and Accused No. 1J And I want to refer your lordshop to page 693 of this record. Approximately line 24 - "Was there any general plan that they were going to carry out,,, (continues quoting)... it was an instruction from the headquarters". Is that wh^t you said?--yes, The first time you said it, and I am putting to you that in this trial you did not ascribe this to Mbeki at all?---i was not questioned about Mbeki at the time, 30 You were not questioned about Mbeki?---Yes.

9 of ( \) K, MDWAYI Now, do you say that you had heard of this overall revolutionary plan, prior to May, 1963? The revolution was always expected. Had you heard of this particular plan that I have read out to you now, prior to May, 1963?--- I heard. From whom?--- From Govan Mbeki, as I have said. Was that the previous year?- Yes, 1962, Are you sure of that?--- I am sure of it. You see, I will be able to refer you to the passage later, in order to show that that answer is false. 10 I will find it my lord, during the course of the adjournment* Now, did Govan Mbeki ever come back from Johannesburg with Wilson?--- On which occasion? On any occasion was the question?- They never came together. They always followed each other on their way up here, and then,.,. Did Wilson Khayingo ever make the report to your committee in the presence of Mbeki?- Yes, When was that?----it was when Vuyisile Mini was appointed into the committee, 20 Was that towards the end of 1962? -Yes, And what was the report then that was made in the presence of Mbeki?---Firstly, as far as I can remember, Wilson Khayingo made the report that he has been to the National High Command, and that he was i n structed by the National High Command to accept Mini as a member of the committee. So that the four of us should serve in the committee. Is that all?---not all. Yes, what else?---after that, Govan Mbeki 30 explained the need to us of the knowledge of how to make

10 S & W K? MDWAYI. V questioned as to why you became disilliusioned, you said that when you heard about the revolution in three weeks' time, you became disillusioned and decided to go out?f> (No reply). BY THE COURT TO WITNESS: Is there a question now, sir? Do you follow the question?--- You see, the question was that earlier / on you said that in October, 1962, you heard that the revolution was to take place in 1963?---Yes. But now, when you were cross-examined in the 10 Eastern Districts, it was put to you that when you heard in May, 1963, that there was going to be a revolution in three weeks' time, you felt that it was contrary to the best interests of the country, and then you thought the best thing would be to get out of it?----that is true. Now, the question is why did you not then feel that way in October, when you heard about the revolution?--- It is because I knew that we always used that propaganda to encourage membership, of putting the following year /as a year that the African people would be freed. So 20 when it was put as a year, a year that were to come, I did not take it very seriously, because I knew that we always said every year, you could put the following. The difference was the time limit of three weeks, that made me make up my mind. So, when it became a reality, you,..?- Yes, my lord, because I imagined the dynamite I have seen in Johannesburg, shown by Matsoaledi, I decided that these people were going to cause a lot of damage now, with these things, and a lot of people would suffer through 30 those things.

11 (-86- K. MDWAYI. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR, BIZOS (CONTINUED): Look, did you think that Govan Mbeki was joking in October, 1962?--- I took him to. To be joking?---i took him to be telling propaganda as usual. But you were not a man who was going to be fooled by propaganda were you?--- Well, I was worrying as to being fcoled by him. I beg your pardon?---i was used to being fooled by him, When did you realise that it was just propaganda?*-- It was when he said it. You did not take it seriously at all?---no^ And the talk that you have given us about bombs and general strikes, you did not take that seriously either?--- No, for the following year, it was not really serious. This Nepal bombs that you are talking about, this you did not take serious either?--- Because they were not yet made, that is why I did not take them seriously. 20 Even though, they were said at a meeting of an organisation, which was pledged to violence, according to you?--- Could you please repeat yourself? You did not take it seriously, despite the fact that this was a discussion at a meeting of an organisation pledged to violence if your evidence be true?--- Yes, at that stage, I took it to be very for propaganda's sake. Well, we have the further point, have we not, that Mbeki was not a member of Umkonto r you have already 30 told us that?--- But he knew everything concerning Umkonto,

12 -87- K. M DWAYI. And was this a report or general chat?--- What is it? This talk about a revolution, was this a report, or a general chat?--- Unfortunately, in the Eastern Gape in our region, we did not have general chats. You do not have general chats?---no* You only have serious discussions?--- We have meetings. And serious discussions?---not very serious. We have meetings, after discussing the agenda of the mee- 10 ting# then we discuss generally. Now, I am going to put to you that it is correct# that you saw Accused No, 1 and Mhlaba in the Eastern Districts, Would you like to tell us of the date? Would the end of January, 1963, be more or less correct?, It is between January and February. I am not certain of the date. That neither No. 1 Accused nor Mhlaba, mentioned anything about the High Command?---Did they not mention it? 20 That is what I am putting to you] Is it correct or incorrect?---they put it. Nor abjout police stations, and that it is not correct that the affairs of Umkonto were discussed/ That Accused No. 1 had a discussion with one Makitso, am I pronouncing the name correctly? Was he there?--- Mayeke Sokile. In connection trade union work?--- Nothing of the sort. And it was in connection with that, that a 30 number of foreing countries were mentioned?--- Are you awaiting

13 -88- K. MDWAYI. a reply from me now? Yes?---The mention of the foreign countries was in connection with the organisation, of places could train South African recruits from the oppressed people of South Africa. Not Trade Unions, That a certain number of people there started talking about sabotage in the Eastern Cape, and it may well be that police stations were mentioned in connection with that, by one or other of the persons present, that before you go and sabotage anything, you had better 10 find out how near the nearest police station is, so that if there is a party sent after you, you will know? What start you have got? Is that incorrect?- Not correct, Alright. MR BIZOS? Informs the Court that the witness cannot be excused by the Court, and gives his reasons for the application that the witness may be recalled at a later stage. Asks permission to put a further question, CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BXZOS (CONTINUED): Now, did Govan Mbeki make only one report 30 to your committee after returning to Johannesburg?----In 1962? In 1962?--- I cannot recall all what he said that day, BY THE COURT TO WITNESS; So when he returned to Johannesburg on that one occasion, did he only make one report to you people?--- It is very difficult for me now to remember all that took place in that meeting that day. Did he only have one meeting which he attended after his return frgin Johannesburg?---Yes. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BIZOS (CONTINUED); 30 Yes, and the only meeting you can remember, is

14 the meeting in connection with the "burning of the houses? Yes. it was in October, 1962» And you fix the date October, 1962?--- I say He was not at any meeting during 1963?---I would not say he was not, because it.is possible that he might have been present in another meeting, because he was entitled. Yes, but do you remember him being present at any other meeting during 1963? -No, I do not remember. BY THE COURT TO MR. MASTERS: Do you agree to the suggestion of Mr. Bl z o s?- M y lord, for security reasons it is very difficult to find accommodation for this witness in Johannesburg* M y lord, I would ask that he be excused* The State will give the undertaking that if he is required, he could be returned to Johannesburg within a day or a day and a half. So, he will be available, but I would ask that he be not retained in Johannesburg* As your lordship knows, he comes from Port Bliaabeth. MR» BIZOS has no objection. BY THE COURT; Well, then if necessary Mr. BLzos will be given an opportunity to further cross-examine this witness. MR. HARE: No questions, -89- K. M D W A Y I. T. MOTSOENING. MR. MASTERS: No re-examination. EVIDENCE HELD IN CAMERA * THABA MOTSOENING-, declares under oath COURT warns witness in terms of Section 254. EXAMINATION BY M R. MASTERS: Thaba, you were arrested on the 27th of last month, and you are at present a 90 day detainee?--- Yes.

15 -90- T. M0TS0ENING Wow, you were a member of the A.N.C. during 1959? were you?---yes. And did you continue as a member of the A.N.C. till about October, 1963?--- Yes. What happened then? Why did you stop?---the organisation, the leadership was arrested, and the organisation at Kwazekele was crippled, and I was the only member from the Executive who was left. BY THE COURT TO WITNESS; Thaba, this is a very big Court, and it is very difficult to hear, the sound does not 10 carry in this Court. So, I will be very glad if you will just try and speak up a bit, try and speak clearly.---yes. EXAMINATION BY MR. MASTERS (CONTINUED): Now, about November this year, did you come to Johannesburg?---November this year? Last year, I am sorry?---no, I cane in December, Now, how did it happen that you came to Johannesburg? Tell us what you came for?---how it happened? Yes?--- Loyiso Nyumana. So, you say that Loyiso approached you?---yes. 20 That is in Port Elizabeth is it?--- Yes. What did he say to you?---he told me that I must prepare myself, and I am going into Johannesburg for some work to be done there, and I should prepare a report on the position of the A.N.C, at my branch, at Kwazekele. BY THE COURT TO WITNESS; Now, I did not follow that. Will you speak up? Speak loudly so that I can hen-vi You had to report on the work of the A.N.C. where?-- At Johannesburg. EXAMINATION BY MR. MASTERS (CONTINUED); Was it a report on the A.N.. KV-azekele in Port Elizabeth?---Yes.

16 -91- T. MOTSOENXNG. Did you have to make your report in Johannesburg?---Yes. Did you know what this work was that you had to do in Johannesburg?---No, I did not know..when I tried to enquire they told me I would get everything where I was going to. Well, did you suspect what it was?- No, my suspicions were that it might be something connected with the A,N»C. Now, who provided your train ticket to Jo- 10 hannesburg?---my train ticket to Johannesburg was supplied to me by Loyiso, Did he give you money as well?--- Yes, he gave me some money. How much?---about R9 and some odd cents, And what instructions did you receive in regard to people you had to meet in Johannesburg?--- He had already taken...he took a photograph of myself and then he said that he would send it over to the people over there, and then somebody will meet me at the station, 20 and he will inform them that I will be at the station, and..,» And were you to go by yourself to Johannesburg, or was somebody to go with you?--- No, on the day before I left, he told me that somebody would accompany me, and that somebody was Frieda. So you and Frieda left Port Elizabeth then, you say, it was in December?--- Yes. The beginning or end, or do you not know? --- I do not remember quite well, but I think it was before 30 Christmas.

17 -92- T, IOTSOENING Before Chaistmas, last year?---yes. And did you travel up as far as Johannesburg? ---I beg your pardon? Did you travel to Johannesburg?--- Yes. What happened wjien you arrived here?---we got down and we allowed the people to disperse, and we moved a little while outside, and then we approached the barriers, and then just outside the barriers somebody approached me and asking if I was Thaba Motsoening. Now who was this person? Do you know what 10 his name is?--- He was Welsh. Welsh? Yes. Did he use that name?--- I subsequently learnt that his name is Welsh. Well, how did you learn subsequently?---when he was being called, when I was already in the location* Then what happened?---then we left the platform, and then we went into a car, and then... You and Frieda and Welsh?---Yes. Was there somebody else driving the car? Yes* there was a driver in the car. What was the driver's name, do you know? I do not know his name. Did you identify his picture, when you were shown a lot of pictures by the police?---yes, Would you just have a look through these pictures that are in this album - my lord, unfortunately the photograph is not available at the moment. Alright, you got into this car with this man driving, and where did you go to then?---we went to the location, 30 Do you know the names of the locations in

18 -93- T. MOTSOENING Johannesburg?- No, the name was referred to as Sewetto, Who referred to it as Sewetto?---When we were just talking. When you were talking in the car?--- No, when we were staying, just in conversation, I learnt that the location was Sewetto, Where did you gc in this location?---i beg your pardon? Alright, carry on, just tell your story?--- And then we left the station, and then we went into the 10 location, and then we were dropped some few yards from the house, and then the car left, and then the three of us, myself, Welsh and Frieda went to a house which was occupied by an old man and an old lady, and we spent the later afternoon there, until it was late, and then Welsh left with Frieday. Try and talk up please Thabal Try and speak loudly please?---and then we spent the late afternoon... BY THE COURT TO WITNESS; Welsh left, and then who spent?---and then Welsh left with Frieda. 20 With Frieda?---Yes Yes?---And then I had to spend the night at there, and then the following day, Welsh came to collect me and then we left for another house, where I met Mfundise, and Maligac EXAMINATION BY MR. MASTERS (CONTI N UED): Now, who is Mfundise? Who is this person? ---Mfundise is Mkwayi, Is he in Court?---Yes. Where is he?--- He is there 30

19 -94- I. MOISOENING. Now, why do you call him Mfundise? He..,, What does it mean, first of all?--- I beg your pardon? What does Mfundise mean?---it means a minister of religion. A minister of religion?---why, Why do you refer to No, 1 as Mfundise?--- It is a private name so that you could not identify it, He was not dressed as a minister?---no, he was not dressei*. 10 Who gave you the name Mfundise? He or who? -- -Everybody, from Welsh to others, referred to him as Mfundise, beg your pardon? you And who introduced/to No. 1 Accused?--- I Who was the first person to introduce you to U,o#. 1 Accused?'---The first person who introduced me to No* 1 Accused, Yes?---It was Welsh, And did he say who he was? What his posi- 20 tion was? What organisation he belonged to or what?--- No, he did not say. I know...i knew him. that he did not know me. Port Elizabeth, He said Mfundise enquired as to whether Yes?---Then I said I knew him, but he said Well, how did you know him?---1 knew him from As what?---as a leader. Of?--- Of the A.N.C. and as a Trade Unionist. Was that many years before?--- In Yes, and did No, 1 Accused tell you what

20 I -95- T. MOTSOENING. position he had now, as you met him in 1963? , no, he did not tell me. BY THE COURT TO WITNESS; Let me just see whether I followed you correctly - you met him in 1959 as a Trade Unionist?--- Yes, and a Treason Trialist, And?---And a Treason Trialist. E X A M NATION 3Y Mil. M A STERS (CONTINUED); Lid you know what position he occupied when you met him in Johannesburg?--- No, I just gathered that he is one of our leaders, 10 Which leaders?---i b e g your pardon? Leaders of whom?--- A.N.O. Alright, you were introduced to him, and what happened then?---and then after we had just talked other little things, about people down there, then he tojd me that,,,. Just a minute, what did you discuss about people down there? Is that the affairs of the organisati on or was this private?---no, just his friends. Just private conversation?- Yes, 20 Yes?---And then he told me that I am going to get some training on sabotage, and how to manufacture gun powder, and then he told me that the man who was going to do the teaching was Welsh, and before he told me that, he wanted to know about the position of our Umkonto down there. What about the Umkonto in Port Elizabeth?---Yes. Yes?--- And then my reply was that I know nothing about Umkonto, since I was confined to the A.N.C, and what I know is that a lot of people have been gaoled, 3 and it was some trials were just beginning by that time.

21 I -96- T. MOTSOENING. Yes?---And Maliga, the man that wanted to know something about S.A.C.T.U. Was it the South African Congress of Trade Unions?---Yes. Who wanted to know about this?---maliga. Do you know his other name?--- No. He is Transvaal 11, my lord. Yes?--- And then I told him that I am not quite familiar to the organisational set-up of S.A.C.T.U. but what I knew was that the leaders, two of them, were already arrested. That is 10 Belt 19 Mayekiso and Mini, and the other two Nangu and Bennie(?) had disappeared. You say the two leaders had been arrested. Who were they?---- Mayekiso and Mini. And you said two other disappeared - Nangu and Bennie, was it?-yes. They are not on the list, my lord. Yes, and what happened then? You say Maleka asked you these things?---yes. And you told him, and what happened then? And then I And then I gave a report about the A.N.C. at Kwazekele, reported that all the leaders had been arrested. Yes?---And some of the members I knew, are also inside. Yes?---And I was the only member of the executive there left, and we had lost contact with out region there. Yes, and what happened?--- And after that, it was just another sort of conversation, and then after that another man arrived by the name of John. 30 Yes?--- And then he sat down, and then another

22 -97- E, MOTSOENING. one arrived. His name was Jabulani. Do you know his other name?---no, that is the only name I gathered, Y ou were shown by the police a number of photograph?---yes. Did you pick out a photograph as being a photograph of this man that you have mentioned now, Jabulani?---Yes, I picked it. My lord, we hope the State will be able to identify this person as T.12, but there is not evidence yet. Eight, so what happened then?---and then Welsh started giving a talk or something like a lecture, about the production of the powder, and about how to work t&e organisation, how to start it, and then he told me that some time the following day, we will be starting the practical side. Alright, now let us take this slowly - he told you about powder first. What powder is this now? Gun powder, he told me about the ingredients, the chemicals that are necessary for its preparation. Do you remember what chemicals he told you were necessary?---salpetre, charcoal and sulphur. What were you to do with it?---you first of all get about 7is spoons of salpetre, heaped spoons, and then v4-g- of levelled spoons of charcoal, and then three heaped spoons of sulphur, and then put them into different papers, and then put a pot on the primus stove, and then add some little water and allow the water to boil, and then take first of all, salpetre, and then you stir the salpetre until it dissolves into the water, and then take the charcoal and then you add the charcoal to

23 -98- T. MOTSOENING. the pot with the salpetre already, and then you stir until the charcoal dissolves, and then you take the sulphur and then you add it, and then you stir and stir, until the sulphur itself dissolves and the yellow powder dissolves and becomes black, then you stir until it becomes a very, very, thick porridge. Alright, thankyou, I think you know what to do. When you got this powder then, this black powder or gun powder, what were you going to do with it?---when you got it, you put into a container, 10 What sort of container?---first of all, you take it from the pot..., I do not want all those details. your gun powder?---all ready prepared. When Yes, then what do you do with it?---you take it and put it into a container, and then it must be sealed? a filled container, and then y 0u add it, and then you put a tissue paper on it, and then you add Permanganate of Potash, and then you cover it with other tissue paper and then as an ignitor, use glyuerine, and then the gly- 20 cerine will travel through the papers, to give some time, say about 4 or 6 minutes, and then the moment the glycerine makes contact with the potash, it starts making a flame, and then the moment that flame touches the powder, then the whole thing explodes. Is this now what Welsh taught you?--- Yes, And what were you supposed to do with these bombs?---we were supposed to commit acts of sabotage. Who told you that?--- We were told by Mfundise. Accused No. 1. Alright, so you told us that 30 Welsh told you how to make this powder. What else did

24 -99- T. MOTSOENING, Welsh tell you?--- He told me how to start the organisation there. Which organisation?--- The umkonto. What did he tell you?--- He said that of all, I must get about four people or five, and first start teaching either one of them or all of them, and they, in turn, will get their people, and then those people will constitute the part and parcel of Umkonto,. Yes, did he say anything else, now, at this time? Was this in the afternoon?--- Yes, still on the 10 Thursday, And where did you spend that night?---we spent it in that same house. Now, what happened the next day?--- Then the next day Welsh came and then took me and another John# to another house, which was not occupied. Yes?----And then we were joined by other people, Were they Africans? Yes, two Africans,_ man two Yes?----And then Welsh started, he started 20 giving them the lecture. Just a minute now, was No,.l Accused present? w-no, he was not present.- On the previous occasion when Welsh instructed you? Yes, he was present. He was present on the previous afternoon?--- Yes. When Welsh taught you how to make the bombs? --- Yes. But he was not present now, when Welsh started 30 giving you the second lecture?--- He was not present.

25 xoo- T. MOTSOENING What did Welsh say to you now?----welsh repeated what he said the previous day, in order to get the other two informed, and then after that we went to the kitchen, to where we,.. he made the experiment. This is still the black powder?--- Yes, the preparation. The experiment on the preparation of the black powder. Yes?--- And he showed the chemicals to us. Yes, what happened afterwards?'---and then after the experiment, or should I explain the experiment 10 in detail. Well, you have told us have you not, how you made the black powder?--- Yes, What other experiments were there?---no, it was just the experiment of the black powder - practical side. I do not think we need that. Just carry on after, afte r y o u had the experiment, what then?--- Then we returned back, after the experiment we left for the house, and then when we came there, we met Jabulani now at the other house?---yes. 20 Who was with you now at the other house?* - Myself, Welsh, Mfundise, Jabulani. That is Accused. No, 1. You say Mfundise?--- Yes, Now, what happened at this house?- And then Jabulani told us about another scheme of the organisation, of Umkonto, What was the scheme?--- He said about how it is constituted, 30 Well, what did he say? Tell us?----he said

26 -101- T. MOTSOENING. that there should be four comrades, with the fifth comrade as a Sergeant of that cell, and then the four cells under the four sergeants will make-the platoon, and then the leader of the platoon is called the lieutenant, and then the four liaibbnants acts under a captain, and then that captain and other captairb, two or three, make the command of that areaf and then a man out of that command would be in contact with the High Command, Now, why was he telling you this? So that you could organise Port Elizabeth on this basis, or what? No, I enquired from him as to the Welsh planwould have to be done away with, and he said no, not actually that, but that we should have knowledge of that, although that has not yet been implemented, but we should have knowledge of it. So, is that what Jabulani told you? Anything more?---and he taught us the oath. The Umkonto oath?- Yes How does it go, do you know?- I do not quite remember the oath, I have forgotten it, because he said 20 it in mouth and he said that he cannot write it down, because... Can you remember anything or not?---only I think about the first two lines, but the other I do not quite remember it word for word. What were the first two lines you remember? ---The first two lines are that "I, a member of Umkonto We Ziswe, I swear that I will obey orders without question, and swear that I will protect my organisation and my comrades with all my abilities", and then another 30 part, the other I have forgotten, but "I swear that I will

27 T, MOTSOENING. protect the National liberation Movement". BY THE COURT TO WITNESS: The National?---"The National Liberation Movement as led by the African National Congress t and to be loyal to the cause of the African people." EXAMINATION BY MR. MASTERS (CONTINUED); What did you understand by the National Liberation Movement?--- By the National Liberation Movement, I...the movement that is concerned with the liberation of the African people. Who does it consist of? Who are the people 10 in it?--- 1 beg your pardon? Who are the people in it, or the organisations? - The organisations that are involved in the National Liberation Movement, the African National Congress, the South African Indian Congress, the South African Coloured People's Congress and the Congress of Democrats and the South African Congress of Trade Unions, What about the Communists, are they also in it?---no. Not?---No, 20 Alright, did you yourself take the oath Thaba? You have told us about this oath that you were taught?--- Yes, Did you take the oath yourself?- Yes. Who was there when you took the oath? Who was the person who made you take the oath? Jabulani, BY THE COURT TO WITNESS: Did you swear to the Lord, or who do you swear to if you take the oath?---i beg your pardon? What sort of oath was regarded as binding? Did you swear to the Almighty, or did you swear to a rela- 30 tive, or how did you swear?--- I was swearing to the organisation.

28 -103- T. MOTSOENING. So, did religion come into it at all?* -No, EXAMINATION BY MR. MASTERS (CONTINUED): Yes, carry on then. You hage told us now what Jabulani taught you. Did anybody else give any talks there, lectures?--- Mfundise talked about the aids of the organisation. No, 1?---Yes. He told you about the aims of the M.K.? -Yes, What did he tell you?*---he said that the first aim was to commit acts of sabotage, in order that the 10 Government should listen to our grievances, and second in order, that the white people, particularly the electorate should pay attention to our grievances, and if possible, should retreat of the Government. Secondly, to put pressure on the Government in order to release political prisoners. Yes?--- And to attract attention of the outside world so that they should not be surprised with OUr cause, and to further the aims of the National Li- 20 deration Movement as being led by the African National Congress. Yes, was there anything about recruits?--- Yes» he said that we should get some suitable people to go abroad, Bor where? Where were you to get the people? From Port Elizabeth. Yes, and then what was to happen to them?--- And then they would be given training on sabotage. not mention. Yes, where would they be trained?----he did Well, when you recruited them in Port Eliza-

29 104- T. MOTSOENING. beth, what were you to do?--- Well, the moment we had the people, we have got to report that we were ready, and then get adirective on how to carry out the procedure from Port Elizabeth up to Johannesburg. And what about members for M.K.? Was anything said about for you to get members, or what was going to happen to the M.K. itself in Port Elizabeth?--- Yes, the moment I arrived in Port Elizabeth, I was to organise to recruit people into M«K., and I was informed that Loyiso will help me, 10 One of your tasks?---yes. And were you to train these people? Was that Now, did Maleka, I think you have mentioned tfhe name Maleka, have you not?- Yes, I mentioned, Bid he have anything to say on this occasion? Yes, he said that since it is almost quiet about SgA.C,T0U, in Port Elizabeth, he said that I must try and get two or three people who would be taken as officials# of S,A,C#T,U. and start re-organising S.A.O.T.U, t Then X told him that it would be very difficult for me, 20 because I do not know the people, the working people, and the people in S.A.C.T.U. and then he said that I must discuss that with Loyiso, What does S.A,0.T,U. do? What was their aim? What object?- He did not tell me the aims of <$.A.C.T.U. Alright, now how long were you in Johannesb u r g? spent about four, five or six days, q^,te remember. I do not Is there anything else you want to tell us about what happened during that time? Or was this the 30 most important?--- Except that in our departure, I got

30 -105- T. MOTSOENING about R Before you left Johannesburg to go back to Port Elizabeth, you were given R80-00?---Yes. Who gave it to you?--- By Mfundise. By Accused No. 1?---Yes. How was it given to you? In Gash? Bank notes?---in cash.. And did he tell you what the money was for? - He said that I will retain the half, that is R40 and then give the remainder to Loyiso, 10 Now, what were you to get 4 O f or?----the one that I had to retain, it was for my personal uses. Since I explained to him that I was not working. So, when you returned to Port Elizabeth, did you hand this R40 over to Loyiso?---Yes. And you got back to Port Elizabeth in the same month, December of 1963?--- Yes. And what did you do when you got back to Port Elizabeth?- The first thing was to report to Loyiso, and then I told him that he will have to help me, seeing 20 that most of the people whom I know at Kwazekele had been arrested, and then we discussed what we v/ere to do, and then he told me that it will be necessary that we get first one cell in New Brighton and then another cell at Kwazekele, and then he said that as far as the equipment, that is the chemicals and other things that I would need, he would be responsible for the buying of them, and from then he brought another man to me by the name of Detu(?), and then when I took the man for instructions on the production of gun powder, I found out that he was 30 illiterate, he could not read or write, and then I found it

31 -106- T. M0TS0ENING, difficult to make things go forward with him, and then I reportes to Loyiso, arid then Loyiso said that alright we do not get rid of the man, but that the man would just be used as a cell leader, and then what we should have to do is that I will have to produce the powder, and then teach the cell leader how to go about with the bomfes. Well, did you train somebody else on how to produce powder?---yes. Who?--- It was Mike Tobeni(?), and another man which was brought by Loyiso. 10 What was his name?----it was Iula(?). Then did you try and get members to join Umkonto?--- Yes, when I found out, I deciced to try and recruit myself, and then I approached another man whom I knew by the name of Joacham(?), and I told him wanted at least about five men. that I I do not want it too long. Did you succeed in getting the men that you wanted for your cell?--- Yes, I got... he got the five, but I said to him that I will have to contact one man, since I did not want the rest of 20 them to know me, and then that man will be my contact with the others. Now, do you know whether No. 1 wrote a letter down to Port Elizabeth, about...?--yes, was shown to me by Numana. When was this about?-- It was a letter which When was that about January, February, or when?-- It was round-about April. Between April and March. March/April this year?---yes, And what did the letter say?---in the letter

32 -107- T. MOTSOENING he was complaining about the absence of activities, and progress. And how do you know it was from him?---i was told by Loyiso. Now, what did you do about this? Were you upset?- I beg your pardon? Were you upse t when you read this letter? - Yes} I was upset and worried. Why were you upset?--- Because there was really no progress, 10 Because you were accused of not making any progress?--'*! beg your pardon. Because you were not making any progress, is that what the letter said?--- Yes. And then did you ask to leave the country? jqid you want to leave then?--- Yes, when Loyiso said that afterwards Mfundise and he himself, Loyiso, were not interested any more in me, and that somebody else should take my place, and then I asked Loyiso to take me out of the country, and then Loyiso said "Alright, I will do 20 that for you provided you pass over your knowledge to somebody else,"and then we discussed that particular somebody. somebody else as Ngola(?) Well, who was this somebody else? That Nov/, did you go into hiding then at this stage? Yes, Did you hand over to this man Ngola certain things?---yes. What did you hand over to him?---1 handed 30 some glycerine, sulphur, a little charcoal and salpetre,

33 -108- T. MONTSOENING. and another small bottle of sulphuric acid, Yes, and what else?--- And another piece of paper where I drew. Well, had you any firearms for your section? - Yes, there were arms. What was it? -There were two revolvers. Two revolvers?---yes,- Which you had had in your possession?- Yes Where had you got them from? -I got them from an other man Base(?), and they were*,.. 10 Were these firearms in the possession of Umkonto? No, they were in the possession of the A.N.C. at Kwazekele long before it went underground, and then when I was first appointed to the executive, then I leant that there were such arms. When did you get possession of these firearms?--- It was round-about between March or February. I cannot remember, about somewhere there. This year? -This year. Why did you want firearms? They were being 20 kept by the organisation before it went underground. Yes, but why were they handed to you in March of this year?---they were handed to me with some other papers of the organisation. Yes, but what for? WJiat were you going to do with them?---i took the papers and destroyed them, and then I put the two firearms in a safe place. Yes, but I asked you why they were given to you? For what purpose?---there was no specific purpose, except that they were the property of the orga- 30 nisation.

34 -1D9- T,, MOTSOENING. Alright, well, anyhow," did you give these to two revolvers/ngola as well then?---yes, and there were some bullets. Cartridges as well. Right, now did you get a second letter from No,. 1 Accused this year? Do you remember another letter?---yes, it was round-about June, June of this year?--- Yes, What was that letter about?---it was just about three or four or five lines in the letter. Yes?---And then I was just shown the portion 10 which concerned me about some activities that should be done* There were some explosions that should take place after the trial. After what trial?---after the judgment. Which judgment?--- Of the Mandela case. Is that the Rvionia trial in Pretoria?---Yes. What activity was to take place? What did the letter say?---to explode. To cause explosions?--- Yes. What did you think about this?--- Well, I told 20 Numana that well, I am surprised that you are bringing this information or this directive to me, because you are*..there is another man who is to take place, and he said that well, I have got to bring it to you, because they said that I must bring it to you. And I told him that well, he saw the position firstly, that most of the people whom we taught, would be used in the Umkonto, had been arrested, and by that time people were being arrested in big numbers, and he Loyiso, some time earlier, he advocated that we should give or make., Alright, did you commit any acts of sabotage

35 -110- T. M0TS0ENING. &t all?---no, AT THIS STAGE THE COURT ADJOURNS FOR LUNCH. ON RESUMING; THABA MOTSOENING, still under oath MR. MASTERS: My lord, I intend putting some photographs to this witness. The State has prepared three albums, numbered <.00.1», >00,2 «and '00.3 S an<^ there is also a list of the pictures with the identification according to the number as they appear in the album. Copy handed to Court. 10 EXAMINATION BY MR. MASTERS (CONTINUED): Will you please have a look at the photographs... (Lists handed in as Exhibit *00.1(a)*). Now, will you first see if you can see there a photograph of the..man you said was driving the motorcar which took you away from the Johannesburg station after your arrival here. See if you can see a photograph of him?--... Have you got the photograph?--- Yes. The number on that page?---5 4* My lord, that is, according to the list I 20 have given your lordship (?) Seboko. Now, you also referred to a man by the name of Jabulani, remember?- Yes. Is there a photograph of him in that book? Have you got? What page is that?---page 53. My lord, that is Andrew Mashaba. Do you remember the man you referred to as Maleka?- Yes. Is his photograph in there? Have you got that? -Yes. What page is that?--- Page 44. Yes, it is referred to as Uriah Maleka on 3 your lordships list. And then remember you referred to

36 -111- T, MOTSOENING the house where you received your training. You said there was a man there, the owner of the house? Remember? You went to a house where you were given lectures?---yes. Did you see somebody there, the owner of the house?- Yes, Can you see if his photograph is there?--- There is nobody else you recognise. Now, I am handing you some pamphlets, my lord, I will not give the number unless he identifies them. I would like you 10 to look through these pamphlets, and see if there are any which you have seen before? What is the number on that?---»r,z. ' Where have you seen that jamphlet before?- Port Elizabeth, Where did you see it? We distributed it. Yes, are there any others there?---1p P 1. What do you know about that document?--- It was supplied to me by Numana, Loyiso. A s part of what?--- Part of literature, some- 20 thing to read. Who is it supposed to have come from though? --- Prom the Region, Prom the Regional Committee?---Yes, Is that in a native language?---yes, What langu^ep is it?--- It is in Xhosa. My lord, there is attached to it a copy which the State will prove at a later stage, there is also attached to that my lord, a copy of the Freedom charter in English, which the State will say is the same 30 as the Native language. That will also be proved later,

37 -112- T. MOTSOENING. but for your lordship s convenience, they are attached. That is Exhibit pp. Anything else?--- QQ?«What is that document?----i beg your pardon? First of all, what language is that written in?---xhosa. What does it say at the end?---(witness reads it out in Native), What does that mean?--- Our struggle now, Where had you seen that document before?- At Port Elizabeth. How did you see it, or where did you see it, in what connection?--- It was distributed. BY THE COURT TO WITNESS: By whom?---i was one of them. EXAMINATION BY MR. MASTERS (CONTINUED): Do you remember when that was?--- It was last year, that is Anything else there?--- This. You say you recognise that document?--- Yes. Exhibit,58, It is headed "Outline of a syllabus for a brief course of training and organising". Where did you see this, and in connection with what?--- I saw it in Johannesburg. Who showed it to you?--- It was Welsh, Is that when you came up to Johannesburg for your training?---no, he said that was the syllabus to educating the members. Were you given a copy, or were you just shown a copy?--- I was shown a copy. Alright, what else? Is that the lot?--- And I got another copy during this year. Where did you get that from?---prom Numana,

38 So you know where he got it from?---he said he got it from Johannesburg, Yes, and what else is there? Bo you know that document or not?---no, I do not know this, MR. MASTERS: No further questions. MR. BIZOS: My lord, I did not expect this literature. was not going to ask this witness any questions, on the evidence that he gave before lunch. In all probability I will have no questions at all, but I would like a very brief opportunity to glance at these documents, if your 10 lordship would be prepared to give me that opportunity. ON RESUMING': AT THIS STAGE THE COURT ADJOURNS FOR A FEW MINUTES. DEFENCE: No cross-examination. MR. MASTERS asks that this witness be excused with the same conditions as the last witness. (WITNESS EXCUSED) T, MOTSOENING, A. MTEMBU. I COURT: He may be recalled at a later stage* ABEL MT E M B U, declares under oath (Interpreted). 20 COURT warns witness in terms of Section 254, (Witness called 'A'). EXAMINATION BY MR. TUCKER: Now Abel, you reside in Johannesburg?---I do. Did you join the A.N.C, at about 1954?--- That is correct. And was that here in Johannesburg?---Yes. When the A.N.C. was banned in I960, did you severe connection with that organisation, or did you carry on?---no, according to instructions that we had received,

39 -114' A. MTEMBU. we went forward. Did you remain in the open, or did you go underground?--- We went underground. Now, during 1961, did you take part in a stay at home strike which was organised to coincide witfc Republic day?- That is correct. Now, did you leave the Republic of South Africa during that year, 1961? I am not too certain of 1961, I know that I went out of the country in 1962, And when did you return?----if I am not mis- 10 taken, I came back in I am not too certain of that, it is quite some time back, and that can have slipped my memory. Yes, how long have you been out of the country, that is what I want to know?--- I was out of the country for fourteen months. Now, Abel, will you just tell the Court how it came about that you left the country?--- It was during the end of 1961 when I left the Republic of South Africa on my way to Ohina# 20 Yes, who told you to go, or how did it come about that you went?--- We were instructed not only me, Ijut also other, whom I am not prepared to name them by name here today. Alright, And are you prepared to name who instructed you to go out?--- George.,..Jack Hodgson. came and spoke to me. Yes?---That I should leave this country and go abroad outside. Do you tell you why?---he did. We had to go 30 out to be taught weapons, military training.

40 -115- A. MTEEMBU, And where did Jack Hodgson tell you you were feoing to receive this military training?----1 do not know whether he knew or not where I would have gone to for that training, but he did not tell me where I was going to. Now, where did you cross the border of the Republic when you went?'---1 think we crossed at Middel- <3riftf we entered Bechuanaland through Potgietersrust, And how many were there in your group? At that stage?- -Jhere were only two of us Yes, and then from Bechuanaland, where did 10 y o u go to?--- Prom Bechuanaland, at Francistown, we boarded plane, which took us to Casana(?), from Casana we went to Mbeya, Mbeya is Tanganyika. From Mbeya to Dares Salaam, we went by bus. Yes, and then? When we got to Dar es- Salaam, we stayed in a hotel, I have forgotten the name of the hotel. Yes, how long did you stay there? -I think four days, I am not too certain of that. Yes, and then?--- Moses Kotane had instruo 20 tions, and he was preparing, he prepared everything for u g f he found accommodation for us. He also had to get I' in order papers that we required to trsvel by. w&8 Frenny(?), again?---yes, we did. first trip by plane, Yes?--- The actual person who had to do that Kotane instructed Frenny to do this for us. In any case, did you leave Dar-es-Salaam Where did you go to from there?--- It was my I do not know whether we went straight to Ghana, but we did go to Ghana. 30 Yes, and from Ghana?--- We passed Lagos, we

41 -116- A* MTEMHJ, touched at Zurich, Is that by plane?- ^es, all that way by plane* Yes, and from Zurich?- I am not too certain whether we also called on at Ethipia, And from Zurich we went on to Checkoslovakia* Yes, and from there?- Prom there we went to Mosgow* where we waited for a plane. Yes?- And from Moscow we went to China by plane* we went to Peking in China, my lord, 10 Now, arriving in Peking, did you stay in Peking?»»-We went to a spot where visitors come. Yes, a gueat house?»yes, it was a guest house, Yes?» And there we stayed, I think, for about two months. Yes, and while you were staying there the two months* what were you doing? During that time we were taught about the Chinese revolution. Just a minute, now in Peking, when you arri*- vefi there or during your stay at the guest house, did you '2B meet anybody there that you knew?*---the day of our arrival there* there I met Walter M k w a y i, that is Accused No, 1, You met him in Peking? -I did-* And did he attend these lectures about the Chines revolution with you? Yes, we were all together, where we attended these lectures. Did you meet an^tody else apart from Accused No* 1 that you knew? I also met there Steven Naidoo, I was told, that is what I heard about him, that he had come there from England at that time. 30 My lord, I may just mention that Steve Nadioo,

42 -117- A. MTEMBU 22 his name is mentioned as Nandhagopaul Naidoo in the body of the charge, as an accompptae. Yes, and did you see anybody else in Peking that you knew?--- It was after we arrived there, that was myself, Joe Glabi(?), Steven Naidoo and Accused No, 1, After we had been there for three weeks, two others arrived, Raymond Mhlaba, and Andrew Mlangeni, My lord, bot these persons are mentioned as accomplices in the body of the charge. Now, you were then a ^group of six from South Africa?---That is correct, 10 Yes?--- It was only u-rs six that were taught the way the Chinese had fought in their own revolution. Yes?--- After two months, myself, Wilson M&wayi* Raymond Mhlaba, Joe Glabi we were sent to another school* also military training, Steven Naidoo, Andrew Mlangeni, they were sent to another school where they were being taught to make radiograms, I cannot say whether they made radios, but it was in connection with radios. Yes, now, alright, just tell us what hap*- 20 pened to you. You say you went to the school where you were told what, the four of you?--- For further military training. There again, we were taught about the Chinese revolution and we were shown the weapons that they had, how those weapons were used. Shose were small weapons. what?... What kind of weapons? Were they knives or Just tell us what kind of weapons?--- No, it was not knives. It was guns, ordinary rifles, machine guns and shot guns, 30 Yes? There we were also shown how to make

43 -118- A. MTEMBU, certain explosives. Now, can you remember what kind of explosives you were taught intf? -I have forgotten most of these things# X cannot with certainty now describe how they were made. No, but what were their names?--- What I was interested in, and what I still remember is black powder. And do you know what ingredients you use to make black powder?- I am not too certain any more, 10 %ut I know charcoal, sulphur, and I have forgotten the third chemical. How long were you in this military school where yoyi reoeived the training? Not very long, I would say about 5 months and 15 days, that is if I remember correctly* Yes, and then? After you finished your training in & military school, where did you go?--- We had to QOme home, but there were other places which we had to be hown# I do not remember where these places were 20 any more* because it was in China, but I do remember that we went to Shanghai, From there we went back to Peking, At Peking, I think, we stayed for another two month * After we had stayed the two months there, we were then Joined by the other two who went to Shanynai(?), I tftlnk* That is the place they went to, where they went to ije taught something about radios, So, the other two joined you four again, an$ you were six again?- -That is correct. Yes, and then after they joined you?- After 30 they Joined us, we had to get prepared for our jounrye back

44 -119- A. MTEMBU home* Yes, did you then leave Peking?----We did not leave together the six of us. The first person to leave was Steve Naidoo, I do not know where he went when he left Peking* Yes?- The next man to leave was Accused No* 1, Wilson Mkwayi* Yes?---I think when he left Peking, he went to Checkoslovakia, We stayed for another three or four weeks* Shen us, the remaining four, left* 10 Yes, and where did you go to?--- We came back to Dar-ee-Salaam by the same route that we went when we left Dar-es-Salaam. And when you arrived in Dar-es-Salaam were you still four?--- The four of us arrived at Dar-es-Salaam. Yes, and did you remain four?--- When we got to Dar-es-Salaam. We found Accused No* 1 there, he had already arrived, I see*--- That made us five. The person then missing out of our group of six, was Steven Naidoo, 20 Yes alright, you were five in Dar-es-Salaam, Now what happened there?---there we met other people, who told us that they had come from South Africa. I am sorry, we found people who had come from South Africa, and who was then living in Dar-es-Salaam, People who had cleared out of the country, they got frightened and they escaped from this country of South Africa. Do you know to what organisation these people belonge,4? -I knew those people very well, and they were members of the African National Congress, 30 Now, did these people give you any instructions?

45 120 A. MTEMBU, No, we received no instructions from them. They would like to see us back home, because what we have learnt outside of this country was required in the country, in South Africa. Yes, and then, did you return to South Africa? Yes, we did. Were you then a group of five or more or less? Pour of us came back in a group. Which group?---it was me, Raymond Mhlaba, Glabi and Wilson Mkwayi, now Accused No, 1, 10 Yes? Andrew Mlangeni had to stay behind because he was ill at that time, Alright, Now, the four of you who left J ar«*e3«rsalaam, Which route did you take?--- We boarded the bus at Dar-es-Salaam, Prom there we went to Mbeya, Mljey is the first town you get outside the border of Northern Rhodesia and Tanganyika, It is just over the border in Tanganyika, Yes? -It is the first big town you come across. Alright, I think we can cut this short. Can ytu ^Vst tell the Court where did you cross the border into South Africa? We crossed the border, where we crossed it when we left the country. Yes, and how did you cross the border, were you in a vehicle or a bus? -We crossed the border by car. Whose car was that?--- No, I do not know to whom the car belonged. Is it a car that came from South Africa to fetch you, or was it a car that you got there to bring you in? It was a car that had come from South Africa, 30 Do you know who the driver was?----it was Joe Modise who drove the car and fetched us from Bechuanaland,

46 ± ± ABEL MTEMBU. 3elt 2k» Now, what date was this approximately? What date was it that you came in, more or less? -- It was either the last couple of days of December, 1962, or the first couple of days January, Christmas day we were still in Bechuanaland, we had not come to South Africa yet. Now all right, after you crossed the border, did you come to Johannesburg? --- Yes, we came to Johannesburg, Where did you go to in Johannesburg? --- On our /lo arrival here we were taken to Rivonia, Lilie farm. And at that stage was No. 1 still in your company? - We were together, my: Lord. Now, when you arrived at this place, Rivonia, did you see anybody there? --- I don t know whether the day of our arrival whether we saw anybody on that day. There I am not clear. But on that same day of your arrival, did you stay at Rivonia for any length of time or did you go to your families?--- The day of our arrival we slept at /20 Rivonia. You slept? -- At Rivonia, my Lord. I don t know whether it was the second day after our arrival or the third that we went and saw our families. Up until the time that you went to see your families had you spoken to anybody at Rivonia or not yet? I know Joe Slovo came and he saw us. Yes? -- Walter Sisulu came and greeted us and asked us about our health and so forth. Yes? --- I cannot remember the others, my Lord. / 3O Was anything discussed at that stage? --- There

47 122. ABEL MTEMBU* was nothing that was discussed at that stage. Did you again go to Rivonia? --- Yes, we went back to Rivonia, How long approximately after you arrived back in the country? --- At the time when we arrived back here, our arrival was a secret, we did not want other people to see that we had come back, we left Rivonia after dark at night, we went to our homes and we went back in the very early hours of the morning, back to Rivonia again. And then, did you have any discussion with any /lo of the people who were at Rivonia? --- My Lord, we were not to be seen by people at Rivonia. Now, people who had the right to come and speak to us were the people I have already mention, Joe Slovo and Walter Sisulu. It was not wnly them either, there are also others, but I have forgotten their names. All right. Just tell us what discussions you had with Slovo and Sisulu, what did they tell you and what did you tell them? -- My Lord, we went back home again, after our arrival we stayed at home and then we were called/2 0 back to Rivcnia for these discussions. And then we were told how the political position cf this country of ours was then at that stage. Now, first of all, who told you that?- My Lord, it is so difficult for me today to answer all these things. So many of these things have gone out of my mind altogether. But I do remember a conversation, we sat down... Yes, who were present at that conversation? That you can remember? -- It was when Joe Slovo informed us, Joe Slove then explained and told us how the work of Umkonto/3 0 and the A.N.C., which had then joined, was going forward.

48 123. ABEL MTEMBU, Now, did y«u. know Umkonto before you left the country? - Ho, my Lord, when I left I knew nothing about Umkonto. And what were you told, what was Umkonto? --- The way it was explained to us was that the Umkonto was the child of the African National Congress of this c ountry. Yes? -- And this body would do the work which the main body had not done. Yes, and what was that work? Were you told?--- That work was sabotage, my Lord. Yes now, could you perhaps just explain this to us. The policy of the A.N.C. was that non-violence or was it violence? -- It was of non-violence, my Lord. Was it explained to you how the child of the A.N.C. was now there to commit sabotage? -- We were told that Umkonto We Sizwe would go forward with its work without killing anybody. A13 - the witness uses the word - installations, which belonged to the Government and all everything that belonged to the Government, but not at the loss of any life, no life had to be taken. Is that on those 'installations', as you call them, that sabotage had to be committed? -- That is correct, my Lord. Now, just tell me during these discussions, was Accused No. 1 present or was he not present? -- I do not remember whether he was present or not. I know there was a time that he was away, that he had gone to Port Elizabeth. I'm talking now about the explanation by Joe Slovo to you? --- Yes, my Lord.

49 .124. ABEL MTEMBU. Now, did Slovo or anybody else at Rivonia tell you where you would fit into this picture now? --- We had to enter various departments. I, for instance, was placed as a member of the Regional Command of Johannesburg. And who were your co-members of this command? - Jack Hodson, Elias Motsoaledi, at that time, they were the people who had introduced themselves to me at that time. Yes, and what was - was it told to you whether this Regional Command was the top body or was it subject to some other body? -- It was a command under the High Command, a command which was responsible for all the Reef. Now, who was renponsible for all the reef, the High Command or the Regional Command? --- That was the Regional Command. And who was the High Command responsible for? - The High Command, the name itself speaks for itself that that was the main body of all of this country. And what was the function of your Regional Command? What had you to do? -- We again were responsible, we had to instruct the bodies again below us of which we were in charge of, what they had to do. What kind of bodies were they? - We call them the cells, my Lord, you have different cells. Yes, and what did these cells do? --- These cells had always to be on the look out for a target, and if a target was found, these cells through a person appointed by them had to report to the Regional Command. About this election of the target? --- That is correct. Where the target was. Yes, and then what had the Regional Command to

50 1 Z$ ABEL MTEMBU. do? - My Lord, the Regional Command was then responsible to go into the matter and see if that target was attacked whether any life was endangered at the attack of that certain target. Yes? -- And secondly that they have to see whether that target was a target which was worth being attacked. Yes? -- And if the Regional Command was not satisfied with that certain target then they would instruct those who were responsible to attack the target to leave it alone. And if the Regional Command was satisfied with the target? -- Well, then they go forward, my Lord, it would be attacked. Would the Regional Command then attack the target or would they instruct the cells? -- No, the Regional Command did not attack by itself. The cell who had reported that target was responsible to attack, and they would be instructed by the Regional Command to attack Now, after you had been told that you were on the Regional Command with Hodgson and others, did you speak to Hodgson or did Hodgson speak to you? ---- Hodgons spoke to me and he said to me, seeing that I was a member of the Regional Command I would be responsible to find recruits for the various cells, and also once recruiting recruits for the cells I had to find recruits that would leave the country and go outside South Africa. For what? -- They had to be taught warfare, my Lord. Just pausing there, did you recruit one person for this purpose, to be trained in warfare outside? -- I

51 recruited Vincent Makoba. MR. TUCKER: my Lord. WITNESS: He is listed Ho. \\Z on the list of recruits, I also recruited Mvanve(?), Marks Tsope, I have forgotten the names of the others, my Lord. EXAMINATION BY MR. TUCKER (CONTD.) Now, let's just come to back/the Regional Command again. When you had this discussion with Hodgson, did he tell you that there was some other body which had to assist the Regional Command? - Yes, my Lord. There was also the Technical Committee, my Lord, not in included in the Regional Command. Was that merely to work with the Regional Command? -- Yes, my Lord, whenever the Regional Command wanted, for instance, weapons they would call on the Technical Committee for those weapons. The Technical Committee had to hand those weapons to the Regional Command. That was required. The weapons I am talking about are weapons such as explosives, including dynamite. Now, as far as this Technical Committee was concerned, did you attend a meeting of the Technical Committee? --- There was a stage that I attended a meeting of the Technical Committee. Did you attend it as a member of the Technical Committee or as a representative of the Regional Command? -- I went there as a member and representative of the Regional Command. Can you tell us, more or less, when was this meeting that you attended? -- I cannot say when it was, but it was in the house of Jack Levittan. Where was this house? --- I think it was Empire Road, the house was in. 126 ABEL MTEMBU.

52 127 ABEL MTEMBU. When approximately was it, we know that you came back into the country at the beginning of 1963, could it have been shortly after that? -- It was before this 90 Day Law came into force. Do you know when Rivonia was raided? --- I was arrested at the same time when the people at Rivonia were arrested. I was arrested at the time the people were arrested at Rivonia. So this meeting that you attended, was that before your arrest? -- That is so, my Lord. Now, let's just go to that meeting. You told us it was in the house of Isaac Levittan? Yes, that is so. Was he present at this meeting? -- He was there That was the meeting of the Technical Committee. And who else was there? --- Mr. Kitson, Accused No. 2, was also present. Was he present there as a representative of the Technical Committee or as a representative of something else? --- I took him to be a member of the Technical Committee, seeing that that was my first meeting of that nature that I attended. All right, and who else was present at that m e e t i n g?-- No. ]+ Accused, my Lord, the elderly gentleman who is bald headed and wears glasses. I don't know his name. Now, at this meeting, what was discussed there? -- The timing device was discussed. I did not see this myself, it was something that was made and installed with a clock in. Yes, and what was it used for? What did they

53 ABEL MTEMBU. say? -- This thing would have been connected with some fuses, and other connections, which I do not understand, and it was set - it would set the time for explosives, my Lord, to explode. And was it discussed at this committee where this thing together with the explosives would be used and for what purpose it would be used? --- It would have been used whenever there was a target, it would be used on such a target if a target was found and the target was in order to attack. These devices would have been used there. And these targets and the use there, would that be the activities of Umkonto? - Yes, my Lord. Was this Technical Committee part of Umkonto? - My Lord, no, I cannot say in what way they were connected with Umkonto. I knew them as the Technical Committee«Technical Committee to assist the Regional Committee? -- That is so, my Lord, My Lord, I wish to explain this that this Technical Committee was brought into existence after I had left the country, when I came back, I found it here, it was then already formed. Now, you told us that the Regional Committee had to see to the work of the cells under it. Now do you remember the names of any of the cell leaders that served under your Regional Command? -- I remember Oriah Moleka. Will you please just look at EXHIBIT 003 and see if you can identify him there, if he is on there? «Yes, here he is, my Lord. N u m b e r?-- I4J4., my Lord. And then can you remember any other cell leader?

54 129 ABEL MTEMBU. --- I remember one Phestes, I remember Manjose. Yes, andybody else? --- My Lord, I am mentioning the names which were being used then. I don t know most of them their correct names. Is there another one whom you knew by his correct name? --- Andrew Mashaba. Andrew Mashaba. Will you just have a look at the book and see if you see his photographthere? --- Yes, my Lord, page 53. That is T.12. Now, as far as this man, Andrew Mashaba is concerned, can you tell the court for what reason he was the cell leader? -- He was the contact for Elias Motsoaledi. He had to work between Alexander Township and Pretoria, and he was also the man responsible to tell those people what work they had to do, what was required of them. Can you tell me, Abel, were you here in South Africa instructed by anybody? Instructed in explosives or anything like that? -- Yes, my Lord, Jack Hodgson took me through the course again here in South Africa, that was in the house of Isaac Levittan in Empire Road. And were you told anything about organisation of groups? --- At the time I was put on to the Regional Command I was told that the areas would be divided into cells, and that each cell would have four members, but one of these members, one of the four members would be the leader of that particular cell, and this leader of the cell would also be the contact between the cell and t he Regional Command. Now, we have seen that the cells made contact with the Regional Command, did the Regional Command make

55 130 ABEL MTEMBU. contact with the High Command? -- The Regional Command also had one of its members who was the contact with the High Command. Who was that person? -- That was Jack Hodgson, my Lord. Who told you that he was the contact for the High Command? --- I cannot now with certainty tell the Court how I became aware of it, my Lord, that he was the contact, but what I can say is, when we had our discussions in the Regional Command if thore was any matter that had to go forward, that is to the High Command, Jack was the messenger who carried it over. Can you remember being present at a meeting of t he REgional Command where the actual selection of targets was discussed? -- Yes, I remember I was. COURT ADJOURNS * ON RESUMPTION OP COURT; 20th November, 1961j.. ABEL MTEMBU. (s.u.o.) EXAMINATION BY M R. TUCKER (CONTD.) Now, Abel, yesterday at the time of the adjournment, I asked you whether you attended any meeting of the Regional Committee where the selection of specific targets was discussed? Yes, my Lord. Now, who were all present at this meeting? --- Myself, Jack, Elias Motsoaledi. Now this Jack, i3 that Jack Hodgson? --- That is correct, my Lord. Did Motsoaledi report anything in this connection? --- Yes, my Lord, he mentioned some of these targets, the one being a synagogue in Pretoria. And the second target was electrical pylons at Alexander Township.

56 131 ABEL MTEMBU. There is a third target, but I can't just think of what that target was. The other man at the meeting, Hodgson, did he report the selection of any targets? --- Yes, my Lord. He had the pass office as a target. Where? --- In Market Street in Johannesburg. Anything else? -- There was another target between Park Station and the Doornfontein Railway station. Yes, what kind of target was it? -- Signal cables, my Lord. (That would be Incident 39 Annexure B) WITNESS: There was another target, I can t just place that target. It was somewhere in town, and we had not come to an agreement about that target when we adjourned. Was there any talk about another target near railway lines? --- Yes, my Lord, Motsoaledi mentioned some target between Phomo?.ong and Phefene. That is between two stations in the location. (Incident 36) At the next meeting - can you tell the court when about was this meeting in regard to the selection of targets? --- My Lord, I am not certain when that meeting was held, it is a long time back. Can you perhaps relate that to the time when you returned from your trip to China? Was it long after that or shortly after that? --- Between March and April, my Lord. That is an approximate time I am giving. Of what year? , my Lord. At the next meeting of the REgional Command were further reports brought in, in regard to these targets? --- They were discussed.

57 ABEL MTEMBU. Yes? -- That was the time the Pretoria target was discussed, and there was not a proper connection. The person or the group who was responsible for blowing up that target did not place the explosives - they were not correctly connected, my Lord. Was that the synagogue? --- That was the synagogue. And who reported that? --- Elias Motoaledi. And did Hodgson report on any of the targets that he mentioned? -- Yes, there was the Pass Office /lo target and it was fired, but not successful. Yes, any others? --- Again the target between Phomolong and Phefene, but they were not successful either, the dynamite did explode, but did not do the work that was required. Yes, any further reports from Hodgson? - Then Hodgson said that some of these dynamite sticks, especially those that came from the town were not proper dynamite sticks, they were too weak. Yes, but now before you go any further, you /20 have told us at this selection meeting that a target was selected between Johannesburg and Doornfontein, was there any report about that or not? --- My Lord, yes, there was a report. Jack Hodgson reported and said that this was successful. Did Hodgson specify at the meeting which sections or cells were responsible for these sabotage attempts? --- The people who were responsible for the Pass Office target were people from the City. Did he say whether they were Europeans, Indians, /30 Natives or Coloureds? -- No, no names were mentioned.

58 133* ABEL JffEMBU. Yes, and the other targets? -- And also the Doornfontein target, it was also the City section responsible for that. Motsoaledi reported about the Alexander Township target, that those people there in Alexander Township did not do their work. He also reported about the Pretoria target, that those who were responsible there were unable to get the connections correct for the explosion, they had to leave it at that. Now, did you know, Abel, where the dynamite came from for these acts of sabotage? --- I personally did not know from where the dynamite came from, my Lord. It was mentioned that there were certain sections who were in possession, those sections who were selected to do that work on these targets I have just mentioned, those sections had the required dynamite. Who reported that to you? -- Elias reported that. Elias Motsoaledi, my Lord, and Jack Hodgson also said that those sections under him, who worked in the city, had their parcels which they could make use of. Did he refer to it as parcels? -- Yes, we called it parcels, my Lord. Now, I want to go over with you now to the question of meeting recruits on the station. Were you ever instructed to meet recruits on the station? --- Yes, I know of an instance that I had to go to Germiston and there meet recruits. Who told you to do that? -- Govan Mbeke. Yes, where did he tell you this? - We were at Rivonia at that time, my Lord. And who was present when Mbeke gave you this instruction? -- There was nobody present, my Lord, when

59 1 3 k * ABEL MTEMBU, he spoke to me. Only the two of you? -- My Lord, I went there to Rivonia in the day time, and there was nobody else present when he spoke to me. And do you remember when this was that you had t o meet the people at Germiston station? -- April/May, my Lord. And from where were you told were these people coming from? - They were coming from Durban, my Lord. Did you meet these people? --- I went there on three different occasions, my Lord, but did not find them. Do you remember an occasion when you went with Mlangeni to a certain Levy Silora s house? -- I remember, my L0rd. Did you meet anybody there at that house? --- When we got to Silora s house we met there a man who had come from Durban by the name of Bruno. Is that Bruno Mtolo? -- Correct, my Lord. Now, did you have a discussion with Bruno there? --- Yes, we did, my Lord. And as a result of that discussion, did you go to anybody for a security check? --- Mlangeni had to go for a security check to Jack Hodgson. Yes, and then after that check what happened to Bruno? --- Mlangeni escorted Bruno, took him away, and I don t know what happened to Bruno further, my Lord. Did you after that incident, again see Bruno? --- I think I saw him twice thereafter, my Lord. Yes, when were the occasions? --- The second occasion I saw him was when we were at a party.

60 1 ABEL MTEMBU. Belt 2?. When approximately was thds? I just want a rough indication.---my Lord., I've got to say approximately during those months I have mentioned, it was in that time. Yes, was that April/May that you mentioned? --- Yes, my Lord. After you saw him at a party, did you see him again? --- Thereafter Bruno came to me personally. Was he accompanied by somebody? --- I don't know I'm not so certain whether he was brought by Lewis Laurie,who showed him my house. /lo Y e s, and then, what did you and Bruno talk about? That was at the stage that Bruno wanted to get in touch with the High Command. When was this, approximately? --- That was after the incident that I was supposed to fetch people from Germiston. In what month approximately? -- I think that was I&y my Lord. Yes, Bruno wanted to see the High Command, and then what h a p p e n e d? - I told him that I would go and / 20. find out. Yes? --- I then went, it was in the day time, to Rivonia, I found Govan Mbeke and Kathrada and Accused No. 1. Did you find them all at Rivonia? --- Yes, my Lord. Yes? - I then said to Mbeke, Bruno is here and he wants to meet you people. Then yes? - He then asked me whether Bruno was alone and I said as far as I'm aware he was. /30 Yes? - He then instructed me to bring Bruno.

61 136. ABEL MTEMBU. Yes? -- I now cannot remember whether it was that very day or the day thereafter that I took Bruno to him. Were you alone with Bruno? -- No, I was not. Who was with you? --- Brian Somane, I am unable to drive a car. You went by car to Rivonia? --- We went by car, yes, my Lord. Did you take Bruno into a room or a house or a building there? --- He was taken to an outside room which was apart from the main building, it was not a /lo portion of the main building. Did you enter that building with him? -- * Bruno and I entered that room. And who was in that room when you entered? --- Govan Mbeke was there, Walter Sisulu was there and Accused No. 1., Wilton, was present. When you came in there with Bruno, did any of these people speak to you or say anything? -- It was either Walter Sisulu or Govan Mbeke spoke to him, and said to him, 'where is the other one', Bruno answered /20 a n d sai, 'I don t know about another person. Yes, and then, did you remain there? --- No, I did not remain there I went. Leaving Bruno bhere? --- I left Bruno there, my Lord. Now tell me, did you know where No. 1 came from, where he grew up? No, I don't know where he grew up, but my knowledge of him was that he was from Port Elizabeth. Now tell me, did you have any money dealings /30 with Bruno at any stage? --- I remember on one occasion,

62 137. ABEL MTEMBU. it was a Saturday, he came to my home and he wanted RIO.00 from me. He had no railway ticket to get back to Durban, and he wanted to get back to Durban, and he required this money as a fare for him to get back. Did you give him the money? --- I handed the money to him, my Lord. Now, was this your own money, or where did you get the money from? -- It was agreed between Bruno and I that I would give my own money, and that Govan Mbeke would refund the money that I had given to Bruno to me. Wgs that money refunded to you at a later stage? --- I remember that on a certain date in those days, my Lord, I went to Rivonia and there at Rivonia I received the that I had lent to Bruno. Now, the people at Rivonia, the people that you mentioned that you knew were at Rivonia, were they addressed there by their proper names or were nick names used? --- Well, fake names were used on most occasions. Elias Motsoaledi was serving with you on the Regional Command? -- That's correct. Do you remember an incident when he went to Cape T o w n? -- I do, my Lord. When approximately was that? -- It was during April, my Lord. Of 1963? -- Yes, my Lord. For how long was he away? --- Three or four weeks And during those three or four weeks that he was absent, who did his work? --- I did it, my Lord. Now, tell me, before he left for Cape Town what arrangements were made between the two of you? -- The arrangements between us was that I would keep a

63 138. ABEL MTEMBU. watch on all his work that he was responsible for. He worked it, my Lord, that I should meet Mr. Kitson. He arranged? --- He arranged. Is that Accused No. 2? -- That is him, my Lord. Yes? P r o c e e d. And it was arranged that if the cells required anything to work with whatever was required I had to get from Accused No. 2. Now, what kind of things? -- Material that was required, such as, dynamite gelignite and also fermite. And also the devices, those devices I mentioned yesterday. Is that the Technical meeting? -- If those d evices were ready and in order I had also to get them from him. Now, let s just get this clear, is this what Motsoalede told you? -- That was the arrangement between him and me, my Lord. What did you and Motsoaledi do in order for you to implement this arrangement? --- Well, he arrang d for the meeting between mo and Mr. Kitson, Accused No. 2, and we met at about lunch time in the day, my Lord. Where? -- Towards Solby, my Lord. Not far away from Stewart & Lloyds, and we met in the street. Were all of you walking or standing there? --- Motsoalede and I got to that spot on foot, there we waited,nntil Accused No. 2, who arrived by car, came. Yes? --- We entered that car, Accused No. 2 car, then we just drove on, my Lord, and we were having discussions whilst the car was in motion. Now, if we could just pause there. You have told the Court yesterday that you saw Accused No. 2 at that Technical Committee meeting? --- Yes, I did say so,

64 139. ABEL MTEMBU. I said that was the very first time that I saw him was at that meeting. So this meeting in the car, this driving around in the car, was that after the Technical Committee meeting that you were on? --- Yes, this driving car incident was after the Technical meeting incident, my Lord. Now, all right, proceeding with the driving car meeting? Our discussion was in connection with this arrangement that I have just told the Court about now. And after we had discussed everything that we wanted to or that was required we again parted. Can you perhaps just tell the Court, what was the nature of this discussion? --- It was discussed that if I had required any of the articles, I have already mentioned, that I would phone Accused No. 2 and inform him of my requirements. Yes? - And he would then in turn report to me whether they were in order or not. Does that mean whether he can supply or not?- - That is so, my Lord. Yes? --- My Lord, and it was an arrangement made by Jack Hodgson that these parcels, the parcels as they were required had to be delivered to a certain store, I know it is Moodies Store, but who the owner is I don't know, it is situated in Commissioner Street, that the parcels had to be delivered there. Who would deliver the parcels there? --- Accused No. 2 would have delivered them there, my: Lord. Yes, and then? -- And the final arrangement we made, Motsoaledi and I, was about two women, women with whom he, Motsoaledi had worked, he told me about

65 l^o. ABEL MTEMBU. them. Yes, what was their profession or occupatinn? -- I know one was a nurse, my Lord, but I cannot say whether both were nurses. Yes, what was the arrangement in regard to the n urses? --- That if those parcels had arrived they would have accepted them. Where would they have accepted them? --- Where Accused No. 2 would have left. them. You mean at tlie shop in Commissioner Street? - That is correct, my Lord. And those two women would be responsible to take those parcels to where they were required. Now, tell me in the discussion in the car, was this thing about the women taking the parcels, was that d iscussed in the car? -- My Lord, I am not certain, because those women were not connected with Mr. Kitson at all. I see. Were you actually to be the contact between those women and Mr. Kitson? -- I would have been my Lord. Tell me, while you were travelling in this car of Accused No. 2, did you notice anything in the car? --- I saw some iron behind the seat. It was in front of the rear seat, on the floor. * *- What kind of iron was it? Just describe it to the Court? -- Some of this pieces of metal was round, my Lord, some of them appeared to have been pieces of piping. that I saw. That was the only kinds of metal and shapes Were there many pipes? A few or only one? ---

66 I k l, ABEL MTEMBU. My Lord, I just looked over and I saw these things there, I cannot say whether there were two or three or how many there were. All right. After you people had made your arrangements in the car, and after Motsoaledi had left for Cape Town, tell the Court what happened in this regard? --- I remember a day, that was a day after I had arranged with these two women that they will have to pick up these parcels at the shop that I have mentioned, but before I told them what day they had to go to the shop I had to get in touch with Accused No. 2. Y e s? ---I phoned Accused No. 2 and he told me that the parcels were not in order yet. What did he say? Can you remember his words? --- He started off, they are not in order yet, my Lord, and our conversation stopped there. But I personally knew that I would phone him again and contact him over the phone. I phoned him. At that time the atmosphere wasn t as it had to be. The police was busy working, and several people had already been arrested at that stage, so the address of the shop where the parcels had to be delivered and taken from had to be altered. Interpreter: I'm sorry, my Lord, I misunderstood the witness. It was that the place where Accused No. 2 had to pick up the parcels, that that address was changed. BY THE COURT: I don t follow that. What parcel did Accused No. 2 have to pick up? --- My Lord, it was the fermite or the dexicos which the committee had already discussed in full, and if those things were in order, if it was only one of the two articles that was already ready for use...

67 11+2. ' MTEMBU i ' No, but the question is this, where had Accused No. 2 to get the things from? --- No, I personally did i not know where he had to get them from. EXAMINATION BY MR. TUCKER (CONTD.) Yes, that is the one occasion, during Motsoaledi's absense, did you get in touch with Accused No. 2 again? -- There may be another occasion, I can t remember. There may be another occasion that we did meet, but I can't think of it now. in the absense of Motsoaledi. But, did you phone him again? --- I cannot remember whether I did, my Lord. That was Now, can you remember whether on any occasion you contacted him when the parcels were ready? -- No, they never came in order that we could use them. I see. That is during the time that you stood in for Mot'Soaledi?-- That is so,my Lord. Can you just tell the Court, at that Technical Committee meeting, where the timing devices were discussed, did Accused No. 2 take an active part in the discussions i there? - My Lord, I know he was there, but if I have now to say that he took part in the discussion I would be lying, because I do not remember. Does the same apply to Accused No. lj., or do you remember his activities at that meetings? --- My Lord, at that meeting there was a question, I cannot now remember f rom whom that question came, and this question was directed at Accused No.!)., he was asked, is the timing device already in order. Accused No. answered and said, they are not quite in order yet, there is still something very small to be done. He also added where he was making these devices the children were worrying him

68 ll).3«abel MTEMBU. there, and he does not get proper and sufficient time to work on these devices. He did not want the children to know that he was working on things like that. Now, you told us yesterday that your function j on the Regional Command was recruiting? --- That is correct, my Lord. And you told us, inter alia, that you recruited one person Makoba? --- Is it Vincent Makoba. Makoba, yes. -- Yes, my Lord, I did. Now, were there other people working with you or under you in doing this recruiting that had to be done? --- Vincent was a person who was selected by me to do recruiting. I see. And what was the procedure? If you or the people under you recruited people to go away, what would you do? What i 3 the procedure? --- If we had got some of these recruits they would be told what they had to do, they were also told that it was something very, very secret. They had not to mention it to anybody, not even to their parents. /20 Yes? --- And if recruits were found, they would be brought together, and we would be then responsible to get them out. Yes, who would arrange for their transport? --- Mlangeni was responsible for that, my Lord, for the transport section. Can you just tell the Court what these people had to go and do outside South Africa? -- Most of them were told that they had to go out and be trained as soldiers, my Lord, to become soldiers. /30 Yes, to do what? -- After they had received /lo

69 ABEL MTEMBU. their training they had to come back. To do what? -- And here they would come and assist Umkonto We sizwe to go forward in its activities. Yes, what kind of activities? -- That was - we could only go that far, then those higher above us again, would tell them what to do further. That is after they had come back they would get instructions. The leaders, my Lord, they would tell them what to do. Who were the leaders? -- - The members of the High Command, my Lord. /lo Now, Abel, do you know, I don't want to tie you down to any specific figure, but do you know approximately how many recruits you people sent out of the country? - My Lord, I would be lying, I can't even guess. When I started myself recruiting people, there were already recruits who had left. How many approximately did you recruit? -- Well, this is a rough counting, my Lord, these are recruits recruited by me only - recruits who were sent off during my time at office were roughly - and this is now a rough /20 counting - more than $0 and not more than 70. Now, Abel, do you know what happened to these people? -- That I cannot answer, my Lord. I have already told the Court what my work was, my side was responsible for. I had to get the recruits and see them out. That was our section. Did you have nothing to do with getting them in to the country? -- That was not our work, my Lord, to get them back. Now, Abel, during the time that you were on the /30 Regional Command, did you know whether there were any Indian

70 ll\$. ABEL MTEMBU. sabotage cells in Johannesburg? -- My Lord, they were not separated, such as calling Indian cells or whatever cells. The cells were just all cells. Irrespective of the race or colour? -- That is corroct. That was the secret of it, you could not go and start differentiating between the cells, because the secret would be broken. Why do you say that? -- I don't know whether I m ade myself understood clearly. This work was a secret at any time, my Lord, a:.d that is why I gave that answer. Now, did you know, as a member of the Regional Command, whether there were Indians in these sabotage cells? -- My Lord, I don t know how to answer this, because our object was not to separate cells. No, you don t follow the question. The question is whether Indians also took part by being members in cells? --- My Lord, could I answer it this way. That we had agreed that whatever nation, tribe or colour a person had, and he felt the same way as we did, that he could join us and become a member. Shall I put it this way: Were you told or did you know that there were Indians who felt the same way as you dc? --- I knew that there wore Indians who worked with u s. * CQUIIT ADJOURNS * ON RESUMPTION OF COURT; ABEL MTEMBU, (s.u.o.) EXAMINATION BY MR. KROG (CONTD.) Now, Abel while you were on the Regional Command was the man called Joseph mentioned to you by anybody? I don t remember ^oo well about this, but there was

71 II4.6. ABEL MTEMBU. a time that I did hear of that name. I know, I heard that he was a member of the Umkonto section, and he was a leader of a cell and he was removed. Now, who told you this? -- Woolfi Kodash told me that. Now, did he tell you when this man called Joseph was removed, who had to take his place, or didn t he? --- He mentioned the name Lala Theba. Did you at that stage know this man, Lala T'heba?--- No, my Lord, I didn't know him at all. I only later became to know this man Lala Theba. Do you know who is Lala'Theba, now? --- I today know who Lala Theba is, my Lord. Do you see him in Court? -- Accused No. 3 > my Lord. (Accused No. 3 requested to stand up and witness confirms his answer) Did you subsequent to this statement that was made to you have any dealings with Accused No. 3? --- No, my Lord, I had no dealings with him. I only came to know Accused No. 3 after the two of us were locked up together in a cell at Marshall Square. Now, Abel, can you remember an occasion when you remonstrated with Motsoaledi in regard to explosives? --- Yes, I remember that. Can you just tell the court what led up to it? -- I cannot remember what I wanted to see Motsoaledi for, but I had to see him, I wanted to see him and I went to look for him. Yes? --- I got to this home and he was not there I was told by his wife that I would find him with one

72 ABEL MTEMBU. Mkwena. I did not know tho address of this Mkwena, but I knew where his house was. I went to this house, my Lord. Now, did you know this man? *-- Yes, I knew him. Yes, proceed? --- When I got there, to Mkwena's, I found them busy, making explosives. And Motsoaledi was making a demonstration at the stove, showing how the boilings had to be done. If I remember correctly, those who were then present at that stage were Accused No. 1 Wilton Mkwayi, Andrew Mlangeni, Andrew Mashaba... MR. TUCKER; My Lord, Andrew Mashaba is T.12. /lo WITNESS: Then there were also two men who had come from the Transkei or Port Elizabeth, I am not certain. EXAMINATION BY MR. TUCKER (CONTD.) Now, these two Khosas who came from the Transkei, will you be able to identify photographs of them? -- No, my Lord, I will not be. Now, this man,mkwena, in whose house this happened, do you know whether he is knownby any other name? --- No, my Lord, I don't know. I'm sorry, it is not Mkwena it is Mofoke. Is it William Mofoke? > *- I don't know his /20 Christian name, my Lord. Can you see if you can find a photograph of his in that exhibit? - Yes, here he is, my Lord. What n u m b e r?-- No. I4.2. (i 2. is T17. William Mof oke) All right, you found these people busy there making black powder, and then, what was your attitude? -- I was not satisfied with the way they were making the black powder, and I said, 'look, the way you people are at work here is not correct, you can either blow / 30. away this house, but if you do so, you will be responsible

73 llj.8. ABEL MTEMBU. for calling the police on u s. I did not speak to him in the presence of the others, I spoke to him outside privately, I called him out. Now, after you had given evidence in what is known as the Rivonia Trial I did. In your evidence there, correct me if I am wrong, you did mention that you left the country for a period of more than one year? As you have said in this court? --- That is correct. In this court you have told us that during that /lo period you went to Northern African States and also to China? --- Correct. During the Rivonia Trial, your evidence was to the effect that you went to Basutoland, because you were ill or something to that effect? -- That is so. Now, this apparent conflict in the evidence that you gave here and that you gave in the Rivonia Trial, have you got any explanation for that? --- Yes, I can give an explanation. At first I did go to Basutoland, but I did not stay there all the time. That I told the /20 Court. And my reason for having said so, I knew I had no right, I had no authority or passports to leave this country and go outside its borders, and that is why when I gave my evidence I did not exclude (?) that I had left this country the Union of South Africa. For the reason that I had no authority to leave this country I gave that evidence. MR. TUCKER; NO FURTHER QUESTIONS. MR. BINZOS; REQUESTS THAT CROSS-EXAMINATION SHOULD BE RESERVED OF THIS WITNESS. / 3 0. MR, HARE: REQUESTS THAT CROSS-EXAMINATION BE RESERVED,,

74 114-9 JOHN MUSUPYE. BY THE COURT: Well then, cross-examination will be reserved, that is, he will stand down until he can be cross-examined by Mr. Zwarenstein. JOHN MUSUPYE, (s.s.) EXAMINTAIONT BY MR, MASTERS: (WITNESS BEING AN ACCOMPLICED BEING WARNED IN TERMS OP SECTION WITNESS: My Lord, may I make a request to the Court then before any proceedings start. I have - what he calls a banning order - I am not allowed to leave the Pretoria District, I am banned to the Pretoria District, I have no right to come here, I want to hand this in, and I want the Court to see this, my Lord. BY SKS COUST; According to the papers you are subject to onerous resitrictions, but that shoudn t prevent you from giving evidence. WITNESS: My Lord, here I have got to mention persons names, people who are in custody at the moment, and that will get me into difficulty, w o n t it? BY THE COURT: If you prefer then we will have your evidence in camera, and your name will not be published in any newspaper and your identity will be indisclosed. WITNESS: No, no, my Lord, I have no objection against that. The court can be full as far as I am concerned. I would like the people to come in and listen to me. My name can be published in the newspapers, but I have an order against me by the Minister of Justice and I am breaking that agreement. If I am satisfied, if I can be assured that the Minister of Justice is satisfied with

75 me being here, and I get that authority, then I am satisfied M R. MASTERS: My Lord, I can give the Court that assurance "k the necessary permission was obtained for the witness to come to Johannesburg. WITNESS: BY THE COURT: If the Court assures me, then I am satisfied. Well, you are acting very correctly to satisfy yourself with your position here. WITNESS: Thank you, my Lord. And if there are people who would like to come and listen to me giving evidence, they can come into the court my Lord. to say, I do not fear. EXAMINATION BY MR. MASTERS; What I have got Musupye, you were arrested on the 27th January, this year? -- That's correct, my Lord. And you have given evidence before in court in regard to the same matter that you are going to give evidence today? That is so, my Lord. Now you were a member of th A.N.C. in I960? --- Correct. I would say up to this very day I am still a member. In June, 1962, did you become a member of the Umkonto We Sizwe? --- That is so, my Lord. And were you later on the Regional Committee in Pretoria? -- Correct, my Lord. Musupye, on the 2i th January, last year, did you together with some other members of Umkonto We Sizwe attempt to blow up the Old Synagogue in Pretoria? -- That is correct, my Lord JOHN MUSUPYE. OVER TO PAGE l l.

76 -151- J. MASUPYE. And on the 18th December, 1963, did you instruct Umkonto men under you to blow up the Waterkloof post box?- Correct. And was that done by Moses Levy Molefe?--- Moses Molefe and Petrus Segwarithle, Now, you were on the Regional Committee in Pretoria?---Of the Umkonto, yes. Now, was there a body higher than the Regional Committee?--- The only person I knew who was above me, for instance, was my commander, and I also knew that the 10 highest command that I knew about was the National Executive Committee of the Umkonto, Now, did you know a man Andrew Mashaba?----Yes, I knew him. What was his position?---he was... Above me was Peter Mogano and above Peter was Andrew Mashaba. They were my superiors. Yes, and is this Andrew Mashaba, did he have access to the High Command?---M y lord, I did not know this person at the time that I had joined the Umkonto We Ziswe, 20 and it was the law of the Umkonto, the me, I had not to know my superiors, nor did my superiors have to know me, I had to know that there was a man who was my leader, in front of me. Later on did you find out what position Andrew Mashaba had?--- Yes, after he had come to Pretoria, Where had he come from?--- He had come from J ohanne sburg. What was his position? What did you find out? --- My leader then, told me that he was our superior 30 officer.

77 -152- J. MASUPYE. Well, did he have any contact with the National High Command, do you know?--- I only knew that whatever contact I wanted to go to the High Command, I had to do that through Peter Mogano, Peter Mogano should know then where he should take it* Do you know, who Peter Mogano then took it to?--- At that stage I did not know where he took it to. I am asking you about today? Never mind then?--- Yes, afterwards I became aware that Mashaba was the superior officer. And how I came to know that, was 10 peter Mogano had spoken to Mashaba, and I knew that aiter I had seen Mashaba, I knew that Peter Mogano got his instructions through Mashaba, But you have not answered my question. you know, or do you know today that Andrew Mashaba had any link with the National High Command?---Afterwards I became aware that he was the contact with the High Command. Did That was between the Pretoria Regional Committee and the National High Command - contact?---all our 20 instructions came from Johannesburg, therefore, we must have known that there was a body higher than our body, and that was the Johannesburg body. Now, I just want to ask you a few points - did Andrew Mashaba teach you how to make b&ack powder?--- He did. And this dynamite explosive that was used for the Waterkloof Post Office, where did you get that from?----andrew Mashaba brought the dynamite to Pretoria. And this revolver before Court here, Exhibit , and that holster too?---i know this gun, I got it from

78 -153- J. MASUPYE. Mashaba. Alright, now it is a pistol is it?--- Well, we call it a revolver. Well, it is a pistol. And you got what else with the pistol?---he gave me R3-00 also in money. Yes, but did you get that holster with the pistol?---oh well, I remember that this gun was inside the holster when it was handed to me, and covered with a paper. Holster Exhibit And were you given any cartridges with the pistol?--- As I told the Court, they 10 were all tied. It was one parcel, I believe. He opened the parcel and showed me also the bullets. Exhibit 181, magazine with cartridges. Do you know how many cartridges there were when you received it from Andrew?---There were seven rounds in the magazine. Now, you have told the Court that you were arrested on the 27th of January this year?---correct. Now approximately how long before your arrest, had Andrew given you that pistol?--- I would say round- 20 about the 20th of December, 1963, that he handed it to me. Yes, well, we know that the Waterkloof Post Office was sabotage on the 18th of December?--- That is so. Well, how long after that did you get this pistol?---two or three days thereafter. Well, could this not have been as late as the end of December beginning of January?---No, not so much later. Well, how did it come about that this pistol was given to you by Andrew Mashaba? I was the leading 30 man In Pretoria of the Umkonto, there were two non-

79 -154- J. MASUPYE, European detectives who were watching my movements night and day, and that worried me greatly, and I saw that the only way out for me out of this, was that I should get hold of a gun and shoot "both of these men, I then discussed this with my leader, Mashaba, asking whether he had no such gun. He told me that he did not have one. I then also made a suggestion to him that all my men, my soldiers who were under me, that each and every one of them had to have a weapon, such as firearms, He then asked me "And what do you intend doing with those fire- 10 arms". I again brought up these two detectives. He answered me and said, he told me that this group of us was not for any bloodshed. No blood had to be shed, and I knew myself that it was stated that the Umkonto was not to shed any blood, and all the sabotage, the rule of the High Command of the sabotage section, we were informed that this was only a great strike, not to kill any people, as the Government has it, that we were out to kill people. He then said to me after we had discussed this subject that he will lend one gun only for 20 these two detectives who were worrying me. He then told me that he was not agreeable with the way that I had suggested to shoot the detectives. He said that was on me alone. He tried many ways and suggested many ideas not to make use of this gun. I then, in arguing with him, I got the better of him. He then said to me "But you have your onw Regional Committee in Pretoria, Take it to them and let th. decide". He said that he would bring a firearm, and we, the committee had to see what we were going to do with it. 30 Well, he brought the pistol and gave it to you?

80 -155- J. MASUPYE. -He brought the pistol and gave it to me. And did the Regional Command decide to use it or not?--- I was the Commander of the Regional Committee, and their instructions they got from me. What was decided - yes or no?-- Still, a point here that I would like to explain. Yes?---On that committee we were three members, I had already spoken to the other two men who were with me on that committee, that these two men had to be shot. Then again thereafter I saw Andrew Mashaba, and 10 he was not agreeable with my suggestions, and he watered me off, and I saw I was on the wrong way. Then those two people who were working under me, whom I have persuaded that we should shoot them, insisted that these two men should be shot, I had great difficulty to persaude them to stop it, and up to the time that I was arrested, being in possession of this revolver, the exhibit now before Court, without ever having used it. Now, in whose possession was this revolver when you were arrested?--- It was in the possession of one 20 Johannes Letoboko, He was a member of my region. Well, you had passed it on to him, had you? --- It was kept where our things were kept, up in the mountain7 and it was on a Friday that Molefe, Bokaba, and Letoboko, they had gone to the mountain and they brought the gun down, and the reason why it was fetched, one of us, Petrus Segwarithle, had been arrested at that time, and we were afraid, we did not know what the police were going to &o to him, they could have got him to show the police where this gun was kept. 30 Yes, but ^asupye, I asked you a simple ques-

81 J. MASUPYE. i tion - did he have possession of the revolver with your authority then? With your knowledge?---yes, I knew about the revolver being fetched. Now, after your arrest, did you point out certain spots to the police?---that is correct, I did. And did they recover these exhibits, now before the Court? Exhibit 175? What was in there black powder that you...? jg Black powder, and empty capsules Belt 32 and other little ingredients. There are several things there, they are still inside there. 10 Were they all the things you had accumulated with the object of committing sabotage?--- That is so. My lord, it is 175 'A' to 'J'. I do not want to go through them my lord, it is black powder and sulphur,,. and a bottle of aluminium paste. What is this aluminium paste used for?--- That was not kept in a bottle. It was in some other metal... I do not care what it was in, I want to know what it is used for?---i was never taught what that was to be used for, but I would have been shown what it was 20 used for. Your lordship has heard about capsules, we might just have a look at them - Exhibit 175 'J1. Will yo$ just have a look at these things, and tell us what they are?---those are empty capsules. How are they used?--- And they are in two sizes. There are these, you find them in two sections - a large and a smaller one. It was an acid which had to be put into the capsule to time our black powder, and the acid that is put into the capsule wears through the 30 eapsule, and then underneath that you find a powdered

82 -157- J. MASUPYE, Permanganate of Potash.. The acid, it makes contact with that potash, and it causes a fire. That,,,, That is all thank you. Where did you get the acid from?--- I got the acid from Mashaba, Now, will you have a look at Exhibit 9? What is Exhibit 189?---That is acid. That was given to you by Andrew Mashaba, you say?---that was acid that Mashaba had brought me. Now, did you ever have any discussions with Andrew Mashaba about timing devices?---he was present when 10 the Waterkloof Post Office,... Did you have discussions about timing devices with Andrew Mashaba?---The way he has answered, he did, because Andrew Mashaba was present, and he showed me how to work it. I do not know whether I have it, but the prosecutor is only asking about time devices. He is not concerned about these exhibits any more? No?---I know about the timing devices. He spoke to me about them, and showed me how it worked. That was the day that we went and placed a bom at the house of 20 the Minister of Defence. I am asking you, now can you tell me what he told you about these timing devices?---i fetched this timing device and I brought it to him and he had to connect it, and then he explained to me whilst he was connecting it, how it is to be done. Well, just describe the timing device for me, that is all I want?--- Well, it is not a wrist watch, but it is a watch and this was placed on a small piece of plank. Underneath that plank there are some batteries, 30 that is about the size of torch batteries.

83 -158- J. MASUPYE. Will you just have a look at this Exhihit No. 130? Was it a timing device something after that?--- Yes, but I am not saying that this is the one. I say it is similar. Alright, now who made that timing device in Pretoria?---I cannot say. We got it from Andrew Mashaba. I do not know where he got it from. MR. MASTERS; No further questions. MR. BIZOS; No questions. MR. HARE: No questions. 10 WITNESS: My lord, I have another request to make please. BY THE COURT TO WITNESS: Yes John?---There is something that worries me greatly, There was a crowd of us arrested. Some of that crowd had been taken away from the other group, The other group being convicted. We were all together and we had decided to do one thing, and this is what worries me greatly - my conscience is disturbed. My lord, I waked with these people, why am I a State witness today. I should be an accused, charged together with them, and I am still satisfied now, and at which 20 time also, to be connected with my other colleagues with whom I had worked. That is what I wish to say. Well, he hear., when I explained to him at the beginning that by giving evidence, and replying to the questions in a satisfactory manner to the Court, the law frees him from responsibility.--- M y lord yes, but now the law there is not our protector. It is like a parent with two children, and we want the Government to listen to us and to find out from us what complaint we have, and we cannot get that opportunity. 30 This is a Court of law, I quite appreciate

84 -159- J. MASUPYE. A. KGASAGO, your difficulty, "but I only have to try cases, I cannot give you any adgice on that,---thank you my lord. EVIDENCE IN CAMERA; ALFRED KGASAGO, declares under oath (interpreted). WITNESS 'B1. EXAMINATION BY MR. M A STERS: Now, in 1957 did you join the African National Congress?----Yes, I did, WITNESS is warned in term of Section 254, hy Court, EXAMINATION BY MR. MASTERS (CONTINUED); 10 Well, you joined the African National Congress in 1957?--- Correct. And in I960 it was banned?---yes, correct. And after it sbanning, were you on the Regional Committee?---I was. Who were the other members with you?--- One was Mlangeni, others I do not remember. The two others I do not remember. Alright, the A.N.C. then carried on underground did it?--- Correct. 20 And towards the end of 1962 or the beginning of 1963, did a man Hillary M a h latsi, come to you?--- Yes, Yes, what lid he say to you?----he organised another body and he came and told me about this other body. Yes?--- And he told me that in this other organisation, was an organisation in which they were going to use also explosives. He asked me whether I was prepared or whether I would like to be taught to make 30 explosi ves.

85 -160- A. KGASAGO, What was the name of this organisation?---- Umkonto We Ziswe. Now, did you form a group of your own, did you also recruit people?--- I agreed to join that organisation, but I did not join on that day. Well, tell your story, carry on?-and there was a day thereafter that I went to his home. I found him at home, and I wanted to know more about this organisation which he then told me. He explained it to me, and I took the oath to join that organisation, 10 Yes?--- To become a member, and the oath was, "I am a member of the Umkonto We Ziswe, I swear to obey orders without instructions to carry...without question to carry out orders without questions". Yes, alright?-the day I went and I took the oath, I found Hillary Mahlati and Uriah Maleka.Then he said to me this man is also a man of our organisation, although we do not work with him. He is in another area. Yes?-He then told me that I had to find two or three men with whom I was satisfied to work with. 20 Yes?----I could not find them. Yes?--- After a fairly lengthy time, I again met him, and he told me that I could come and work with him, on a committeeship of four people. How, did ycu then serve on the Regional Committee, is it?--- That is correct, that was the name. Now, did you know of any connedtion between the Regional Committee and some higher body? My lord, I was not told so, but I could see that there was a superior body to us, because I was told that Maleka 30 was on that other tody which was superior to ours.

86 -161- A. KGASAGO, I do not want the details, but were you trained how to make black powder?---yes, I was. And were you also taught how to make pipe Belt 33 bombs? -Yes. And did you yourself commit any acts of sabotage?'---yes. What acts did you commit?---hillary and I, we had two pipes, we took them to railway tracks, between the township of Pomelong and Umzimhlope, And did you put the pipes underneath the 10 railway track, you say?'---we did. Well, do you see these exhibits before Court, Exhibit 195?---Yes, this is a pipe bomb, is this the one or a similar one that you used?---this is not the one, but similar to this. powder, would it?---yes. And it would have been filled with black And what did you think would happen?- That that would cause a derailment. were And people would get injured?--- We/told to 20 lay that bomb at 2 o'clock in the morning, and at that hour there were no trains. Well, if you blew away the line, the train would arrive eventually would it not?---the place was clgse to a station, the police have heard the bang of the bomb, and then they would have stopped any trains on that route. Who told you this, or did you think this out yourself?---that was my contact, Hillary Mahlatsi, ON RESUMING!: AT THIS STAGE THE COURT ADJOURNS FOR LUNCH. ALFRED KGASAGO, still under oath /O EXAMINATION BY MR. M ASTERS (CONTINUED):

87 -162 A. KGASAGO. Now KgasagOi,. you were telling us about this sabotage attempt, No, 51 my lord, on the 15th of June, this year, and you said you and Hillary attempted it?- Yes. Now, you placed one pipe bomb you said, underneat the railway line?--- Is that the 15th of July? dates. June?---Well, I am not too certain about the Well, we will fix the dates just now, and what did Hillary do?---- The two of us together, we each had 10 to put our own pipe/underneath the railway line. as well then?--he did. So did Hillary pyt one under a railway line At the same spot?---at the same spot, yes. What happened to these pipes?----after we had laid those pipes, we went back to the shpps and we stayed there for an hour. Yes?---We waited for the result. After an hour had lapsed we knew that nothing more was going to happen, 20 we Yes?- So/went back to the spot again, removed the pipes from underneath the railway tracks, and placed them there in the grass. And just to finish this off - after your arrest, did you point out the spot where you had put this pipe bomb to the police?---i pointed the spot to the police where I had left these pipes. And is this the one that you pointed out to the police?--- By appearance, yes, it is it. Now, what else did you point out at the same 30 spot to the police?--- I also saw... I showed the police a

88 -163- A. KGASAGO. bottle. Is that the bottle now before Court, Exhibit 1*6?'----No, this is not the bottle. That was a white bottle. The contents of the bottle was white. What was in the bottle?--- It wae a similar bottle to the bottle I was shown now, but the contents of the bottle was white in colour. My lord, I understand that there may have been a chemical change during... due to a test carried out. Is the bottle the same?-- The bottle is the same. 10 And what was inside?----the contents of that bottle was sulphuric acid. And what was the purpose of that?---you would have put sulphuric acid into a capsile. Yes?---That capsule would be placed on top of some Permanganate of Potash, and the Permanganate of Potash would be on top of the black powder. Now, on the day that you attempted this act of sabotage, do you know whether any other acts were attenpted by your group?---yes, I know of one between Mlamlam- 20 kunzi and Orlando. Well, who did that, and what did they use? --- Shabangu Tuli(?), there was another at Nancefield Station. Between I-imville and Nancefield Station? --- I was told that it was at the station. Well, near the station, or at the station? First of all, who did that acts?--- Hillary arranged for that sabotage, at the Nancefield station. I do not know who was actually responsible. 30 Was there a report back to the committee?---

89 -164- A. KGASAGO. Yes. It was not said then who did it?--- Hillary had placed... the person whom Hillary had sent, had placed that bomb underneath a robot standard. At the Nancefield station?---correct, And what had happened there?---the bomb did not go off. And any others on that same night?--- Yes, there was another between Westbury and some other station, I do not know the name...newclare, Yes?---Nor was that successful. Just one minute- where did you say it was? Between Westbury and Newclare. J that anywhere near New Ca.tala Station?--- No, it is on a totally different track. Is it near on the track Pimville/Nancefield? --- After Industria, you get Westbury, It does not appear to be listed my lord. Yes and any others?---- No others that I know of. We talked about this one night?--- Yes, there was another between Phomolong and Mzimthlope, close to the Mzimthlope Station, successful. That would be Act 50 my lord,---not was that My lord, we are getting a bit confused. It was between Phomolong and Mzimthlope, did you say?--- Yes, Well, that was the one you did?--- No, we were close to Phomolong Station, and this other bomb was placed close to Mzimthlope station. Between New Caisda and Phomolong?---No, between Phomolong and Mzimthlope, and between those two plac

90 -165- A. KGASAGO, Phomolong and Mzimthlope, were two bombs set. Now, did you point all these spots out to the police that you have mentioned?---no, I could not, because I could not show the exact spots where these bombs were set. In regard to the one you have just described now, who was responsible for that?--- Loabile, Alright, were there any more on this night? ---No, there was also...it was also arranged that the other was to be set, but the person who was responsible 10 to have gone there, did not go on account that he had lost his sulphuric acid. Now, why were all these sabotage acts planned for this one night?----that was a protest, that was what we were told, that it was a protest against those who had been convicted. Convicted where?--- Those in the Rvionia case. Was this after the conviction and after the sentence?---it was after their conviction. After their sentence too?---everything was 20 over, yes. My lord, I think it would be agreed that that was on the 12th and 13th of June...the 11th of June. That is a Friday. So when did these acts take place then? If the sentence was ona Friday, when did these acts take place?--- It was two or three days after the Rivonia sentence. Do you know what day of the week it was?--- It was either Sunday or Monday night, my lord. In the early morning of the Monday, of the night of Sunday/ 30 Monday.

91 -466- A. KGASAGO That will be the 15th, my lord.' Now, who told you about this protest that was going to be made?--- Hillary Mahlatsi. Did he say where he had got his information from?----well, he instructed us, but he did not tell us from where he had his instructions. No, but did he say it was his instructions, or had he got them from somebody else?---we did not ask him whether it was his instructions, or whether he had heen instructed, 10 And what was to be done? Just in your group, or all over?--- Well, we were told that we had to do so. I know nothing about what the others had to do. You were not told?--- We were not told. Now, you have told us about these pipe bombs. Where did you obtain them?--- We, manufactured them ourselves. Hillary, he brought-the piping, and we made the bombs. How did ypa make them?---he also brought the stocks and die machine to cut the threads, 10 You say he threaded the pipes?--- Yes, he gave us the stocks and dies, and told us to cut in the threads, And dodyou know where Hillary got them from? ---No, he did not tell us. Well, did you know of a highter authority? A High Command or aaything?---he was the contact, Hillary, and he went to some other place to get the requirements. Alright, and how many pipes were given to you eventually?- -Well, probably twenty and we completed 30 about ten bombs.

92 A. KGASAGO, And were you ever given any money to pay for materials?-- Yes, we were handed the money. Who gave you the money?--- He said that he would give us 5? and that was given to us. Given to you bym--- HLllay Mahlatsi gave it to me. And where did he get it from again?--- He did not tell us where he got the money from. Did it come from this High Command, do you know or not?---no, I do not know where it came from. 10 Before we leave the sabotage, do you know anything about the Pimville Post Office?----- Yes, I d My lord, that is 52. Yes, what do you know about that?---i saw it in a newspaper, that the Pimville Post Office was exploded. Yes?--- Thereafter I went to Hillary Mahlatsi, I met him in the street with another man, they were t a M n g in the street. That is at his home. There I heard that it was that man who had set the bomb for the Post Offioe. Which man?? The Pimville Post Office. 2 U What was that man's name?---xaba. Now, did Hillary leave the country at some stage?---yes, When about, do you remember?---he left in une of this year. What happened when he left?---he came to me and told me that he was in trouble, and that there was a case against him, and the only way for him out, was to get out of the country. Yes?---He came to me and he called me out 30 in the street. In the street was a car and there I found

93 -168- A. KGASAGO. also Uriah Maleka, and then they told me that they are going now. Yes?--- I asked him what my position was, whether there was nothing against me, and he told me that he knew nothing about me, Hillary then said that for the two of them, they had to get out. Yes?---Because there was definitely something against them. Yes?----They took me to a spot in Kazeme, they took me to a house, and in that house they again said 10 to me that we are going and we are leaving you with this man. This ban when we entered, was seated on a bed. Yes, and what was his name or who is he?--- I was told that he was Mfundise. Well, is he in Court?--- Yes, he is. Where?---Accused No, 1, Yes?---We left Accused No. 1 there, and we then left. They took me to a spot where I should meet Mfundise every day. Once a week. Where was the spot?--- That was in a mountain 20 at Westcliff. Yes? -From there we left, and they dropped me on the road which leads to my home. Yes?---The following week, that was on the Tuesday of the week thereafter,' I went to the house where I had to mee Mfundise, I found him there, I reported to him, and there I told him that our business was not going forward and it did not come out as we had intended it to come out, and what was there for us to do. He pulled up his shoulders and said that he did not know,.we par- 30 ted and.the week thereafter we again met. That is Accused

94 -169- A. EGASAGO No, 1 and I again met at the sports grounds. I asked Accused No, 1 what work Maleka had been doing, Maleka was for the recruits, those who were leaving the country. Then Accused No, 1 said to me that him and myself had to find a man who had to be placed in the place that Maleka held Yes?---^pd we parted. A meeting thereafter, nothing had happened, and I asked Accused No. 1 for funds so that we could buy requirements to make some black powder. 10 Yes?----- He handed me 5, Yes?-We parted with me having 5, Yes?--- And that was our last meeting. We did not meet again, I was arrested thereafter. Now, you were arrested in July this year, were you?---i was arrested in August. And how long before your arrest di you have your last meeting with No, 1 Accused?---About a week. And how did you regard Accused No. 1? What 20 did you think his position was?--- Well, he was my superior. Above me and my contact. Now, I do not know if you have mentioned the man Tau? Do you know Tau?--- Yes, What was he? What did he do?--- He was one of us, one of our four who had worked with Hillary, Now, will you just have a look at this albmm and see if you can identify him?---no, 48, And you mentioned loabile, can you see his photograph there?---no, 51, 30 And Charlton Ntuli, who was he? Do you know

95 -170- A. KGASAGO. Charlton Ntuli?--- I know him. Was he also one of your sabotage group? Correct, Can you identify his photograph there?--- No, 46, and 51, were my cell contacts, they were not members of the four. And 51 is...?---51 and 46. MR. MASTERS: No further questions. MR. BIZOS: Applies for short adjournment. (Permission granted). 10 AT THIS STAGE THE COURT ADJOURNS. ON RESUMING: ALFRED KGASA GO, still under oath (interpreted) M R. MASTERS FURTHER E X AMINATION (TOTH PERMISSION): My lord, there is just one exhibit I forgot to hand in - do you see these pipes before the Court, six pipes Exhibit 171?---Yes, I see them and I know them. And also 172, there are two lots here? You pointed those out to the police after you were arrested? did. 20 MR. MASTERS: No further questions, CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BIZOS: I have only got one or two questions to ask you, to clarify your evidence - Do you remember that you told his lordship about thdse pipes that were placed under the railway line?---yes. And you remember that you said that they were put there, very late at night or very early in the morning? So that there would not be any trains passing by? At the time of the explosion?--- Correct, 30 And spots were chosen fairly near to stations

96 y s A. KGASAGO. where there would be policemen and who would hear the explosion, and stop any trains that may be coming thereafter?---correct* Belt 35 Would it be correct then to say that the purpose for putting these bombs there, was in order to show the dissatisfaction of the African people with a certain state of affairs, and not for the purpose of injuring people by causing derailments?---that was so. You also told his lordship that approximately one hour after you had placed the bomb there, you went 10 and picked it up and threw it in the grass?--correct, That means that after the passing of an hour, you cou3d not have been afraid that it might go off at a time later than that at which it was intended to go off?---we knew that. And you felt so certain about that, that you were prepared to go and pick it up and just throw it away?---yes, we did not throw it away, it was hidden so that it could be fetched again, I see, yes* 20 MR. BIZOS: No further questions. MR. HARE: No questions. MR. MASTERS: No re-examination. MR. BIZOS: My lord, my learned friend has asked me to admit acts No, 48, 49, 50 and 51 as the work of Umkonto We Ziswe, there is only one qualification, and that is the time in No once it had not exploded, the time can at very best of an arbitrary nature, (Further discussion ensues between Court and Mr. BLzos and Mr. Masters, Time changed to 2 a.m.).

97 -172- M.R. NTUEI, BY THE COURT; Well, on tha& basis then Mr. Bizos, you admit Acts of sabotage Nos. 48, 49> 50 and 51. MR. BIZOS: That is so. BY THE COURT: And does that apply to you too Mr. Hare? MR. HARE: As your lordship pleases. MEANA RICHARD NTULI, declares under oath WITNESS is watned in terms of Section 254. EXAMINATION BY MR. TUCKER: Now Richard, did you join the African National Congress in 1949?--- Yes. 10 And in November, 1963, were you approached by a man by the name of Charlton Ntuli?---It is so. Now, what did Charlton Ntuli tell you?---he said he is the agent of S.A.C.T.U. No, I am talking about November, the end of 1963?- (No reply). Alright, in 1963 did this man speak to you?--- Yes, What did he speak about to you then?--- He said I must join the S.A.C.T.U, 20 South African Congress of Trade Unions?---Yes. Yes, and did you join?---yes. Then towards the end of 1963, November of 1963, did this man approach you again?---(no reply). Did Charlton Ntuli speak to you again?--- Yes, he used to come to my house. Yes, and did he again ask you to join something else?---no, Alright, what did he speak to you about to- 30 wards the end of 1963? What did he tell you?---he told me

98 -173- M.E. NTULI nothing in Now, did he at any stqge speak to you about soldiers?---no, he told me nothing. And did he mention to you about people going to the Northern African States?---Yes, he sometimes talked about that. Yes, what did he say about that?--- Well, he said he wants some men to enroll as members, of a certain organisation, that he wants some soldiers. Yes?----And that is all. Then he even asked 10 me. Yes?---Then I said no, I cannot take that oath. Which oath?---yes, he said to join in that organiaati on. And you would not join that association?--- Yes, Now early in this year, in about January, 1964, did you go to the house of this man Charlton Ntuli? ---Yes, What happened at his house?---i found him 20 with another man. I do not know his name. It was the first time to see that man. He said that he is going to demonstrate how to make gun powder. Yes, when about was this?---it was in White City, Jabavu, year. Yes, but when?--- It was about March, this And then we do not want all the rigmarole that you people went through there, did he then ma^ce black powder there?---yes. * 30 And did you see him making black powder?'---yes,

99 -174- M.R, NTULI. Now, do you remember a Sunday night this winter, that you saw Charlton Ntuli again?---sunday night, yes, he did come to my house. What time did he come to your house?--- It was between 10 and 11 p,m. Yes, and then?--- Well, he asked me to accompany him to Meadowlands. Yes?---To see a certain witch doctor there. Yes, did you go with him?---yes, I did, but I said I would even not go to Meadowlands, because he 10 is banned, it is out of bounds that he must go there, and he asked that we should take away somebody to Malamkozi, I am sorry, I could not hear what you said? ---Yes, Just take this thing a bit away from your mouth, and then I think the sound would be better. Yes? --- Yes, he did come to me. He asked me to accompany him to Meadowlands, To a witch doctor, yes, so far I heard, Now, I said well, he is not allowed be at Meadowlands, we will be arrested. Yes?---And he said we must take pnother way to Mamlamkozi, that is the other part of Orlando, Yes, and then?--- And I did accompany him. From my house we went to his house. Yes?-He took something under the grapes(?), it was at night, I was standing at the gate. Yes?---Well, we went together. Yes, and what did he take out was a parcel rolled with a paper. there?-th

100 -175- M.R. NTULI Yes?---We went together towards Orlando. Yes?- Between Mlamkozi and New CaisdaStation, he went over the railway trail, on the railway line. Yes?----I stand downwards, he took about, I do not know whether it is 45 or an hour up there. Yes, and were you standing there waiting him?---yes, I was waiting for him. And what was he doing?---1 did not ask him that night. for Yes, and then?---- Now, he him. Now he said he will tell me the following day. What he was doing?---yes. Yes?---Now we went together, we passed to his house and I left him by his house, I went to my house. Yes?---Then the following morning at 5 past five I took a train to the work. I came late at 10 o clock. He came at 10 o'clock the following day, and he told me that ho put some bombs there. At that place where you waited for him?---yes,20 I asked him why he did not tell me before. He said "I know you would not go there, because it is your life". I see,---that is all I know, sir, MR. TUCKER: No further questions, CROSS-EEAMINATION BY MR. BIZOS (CONTINUED): Was this late at night that all this happened? --- It was at night. Late at night?---yes. MR. BIZOS: MR. HARE: MR- TUCKER: No further questions, No questions, No re-examination.

101 -176- Z. GUBONYANA. ZACHARIAH GUBONYANA, declares under oath (Interpreted) WITNESS i s warned in terms of Section 254. (WITNESS 1D f) EXAMINATION BY M R. TUCKER; Now gachariah, in 1950 did you join the African National Congress?---Yes. And in the course of your being a member of the African National Congress, did you know a certain Charlton Ntuli?---I knew him. Now, duxing July/August, 1964, that is this year, did you see Charlton Ntuli?--- I did. 10 Where?---I saw him at my home. He had come to my house. Yes?---In White City, Jabavu, Yes, and what did he come to do there?- He came there organising a new then being formed. organisation which was What was the name of that organisation?---well, it was an organisation which had to make explosives, I see?---and I refused to join this organisation of his on that night. He left me, 20 Yes, and then the next Sunday night did he come to your house again?--- He did. On that night, were you then prepared to join?---i am sorry, I think it was Saturday not Sunday. Yes?---Yes, and the reason for me joining was befause he came there with my great friend Timothy Bhlamini. Yes, and you then joined this organisation? ---I then joined thar organisation. And tell me did you have to take an oath when 30 you decided to join?---yes, I had to take the oath.

102 j vik Z, GUBONYANA, How did you take the oath?? It said that we had to "be faithful and strong, and that if we were arrested not to bring out anybody else. Yes?--- He then again left. occasion that he had come to see me. That was the same Yes?---He came again. Yes?---He came there with a wrapped carton. Yes, now, we do not want to ^o through the whole rigmarole - did he there introduce chemicals and black teach you how to make/powder?---he again came with my frier.d 10 Belt 36 Dhlamini, Yes, they boiled something on the stove. Did this man make a black powder in your house?-- Yes, the boiling turned out to be black powder. Yes, and was this black powder, after it was made, placed into a canned fruit bottle or canned fruit bottles?-no, it was then put into water, I do not want to know how it was made - when it was finished?---that is correct, it was put into a fruit jar, after it was ready made. Yes, how many fruit jars?---one bottle, 20 And what happened to this bottle?--- Then the three of us went outside, we dug a hole in my yard, and it was buried there. Now,,«..?--- We buried then a portion or piece of what was cooked, and we took it to the football fields. Yes?---Charlton Ntuli and I took it there. Now, will you just have a look at Exhibit 200 here before the Court? Is this the bottle of black powder that was buried in your backyard?-- This is the 30 bottle, but there should be another small bottle*

103 -178~ Z. GUBONYANA. Well, let us just see if there is a smaller bottle?--- That is the smaller bottle* Are those the two bottles that were buried in your backyard?---yes. That is Exhibit 200, both bottles my lord. Now, these two bottles, did you point them out to Detective- Sergeant Ferreira on the 16th of October, 196^?---That is correct. I have still got something to say. Alright, what have you got to say?---when we got to the football ground Charlton set fire to the 10 piece that we had taken there, with a match, and it exploded, I see?---and he said that that mixture was correct. That is good powder?---yes, then Charlton said ti.at now we had to look for bicycle frames. Why? What were you going to do with the bicycle frames?- He said that he will teach us what to do with it, I see, he did not tell you?---no, he did not. I never obtained a bicycle frame. Now, the next Sunday...?** The next Sunday Mtakani came. Yes?-- He came to my house. Yes?-- He said come with me let us go. I said where to and he said to Timoth Dhlamini. To Timothy Dhlamini1s and found him at home. 2D Yes?-- Mtakani then said to Dhlamini and myselfs, you fellows I have been sent here to you by Charlton Ntuli. 30 Yes?---And you have got to prepare yourself

104 -179- Z, GUBONYANA. and that we had to go and choose a spot on the railway lines, because on Sunday night we would go into action, work. What kind of work? What kind of action? --- No, he did not describe what kind of work it was. Did you connect this kind of work up with the black powder that you made?---i asked him and he said no, I had to wait, He said that he will come along with Charlton Ntuli and we would then be told what to do. Yes, and then?---we went and looked for a 10 spot and we could not find any. BY THE COURT TO WITNESS: What sort of a spot were you going to look for?---we had to look for a spot at a bridge or on the railway lines going to Naledi. EXAMINATION BY MR. TUCKER (CONTINUED): What kind of a spot?'---he said we had to go and look for a spot where they could use this black powder, that was made, and he did not explain to us fully what he wanted. So, did you go to the railway line to go 20 and look for this something which you did not understand? -Yes, we went to a vlei, Yes?---Not underneat the bridge, but away from the bridge. Yes?---We went there and examined the spot as we were told to do. Yes?---And we went back home. Did you do anything further ahout it?---nothing, MR. TUCKER^ No further questions, WITNESS: My lord, I just want to finish, I am not finished 30 yet. He said that he would come that evening, he never

105 -180- Z. C-UBONYANA. B. SEBEKO, came, and that caused me to he arrested. That is my whole story that I know, MR. BIZOB: No questions, MR. HARE: No questions. BY THE COURT TO WITNESS: Now, what made you decide on the spot that you did pick at?---i do not know, hut we were sent by this man to go there, a space that we wanted, which he was going to use. One end is a dam or a pool of water and the other side is a vlei. BENTON SEBEK O r declares under oath (Interpreted) 10 EXAMINATION BY MR. TUCKER: Now Benton, do you reside in Orlando West, Johannesburg?---I do. During July, 1963, were you approached in regard to a church conference? -Yes. By whom were you approached?---i was approached by one John Machabe(?) And did John Machabe come to you ag n a few days later?---he did. And on that same night, did somebody else 20 come to your house?---yes, Who was that other person that came to your house?'---wilton Mkwayi, Accused No, 1 also came out. Yes, who came with him?---uriah Maleka, came with Accused No. 1. Now, could you just tell the Court, how was Accused No, 1 dressed?--- He was wearing the clothes that are used by parsons, collar that is covered round the front. Yes, and then?-- Maleka then told me that 30 this was the person of the conference, This was the man that

106 -181- B. SEBEKO they had asked me whom I should pick up and keep at my home for the duration of the conference. Had he to board at your house?--- Yes, he had to board at my house. They had to pay me 2 (R4)» Yes, and for how long did Accused No, 1 board with you?--- Some months, probably three - I am not too certain any more. Can you remember when was this period that Accused No. 1 boarded with You?- Wan it in last year, or in this year, or when was it?---it was during last 10 year. Towards the end of last year or the beginning of last year?---i would say March or April, That is if I am not mistaken. certain. Now, are you not certain?---no, I am not Can you remember whether it was before last year's winter, or after or can you not remember?--- It was before winter of 1963, Yes, and then do you know what this man did 20 at your house?--- He stayed there for a long time with me. that he did go out. with me, Bid he go out at night?--- There were nights Yes, with whom did he go out?---he went out a Did you have/car?---yes. Can you just tell us where you took him to at n ight?---we left my home and we came to Smit Street, at the Technical College, In Braamfontein?---Yes, 30 Yes, and there, what was the procedure?

107 -182- B. SEBEKO, I got off the car and I saw him walk and enter the school building. There I saw him in the company of three Europeans. Yes?---And he would come back with these Europeans and they would all entered another car. What kind of a car was it?---it was a twotone D.K.W. Yes, and when they entered the car? Were they then four?---pour would enter the car. When they entered the car?«they would drive off. 10 And then, what would you do?---well, I went there, because he asked me there to wait for him, and he would come back. Yes, and then, did he come back?--- About an hour, he would be away for about an hour and then return. How would he return?------he would come back by car, I see him get out the car. The same car?---yes. On other occasions, I would be asleep in my own car, and he would wake me up. Now tell me, did this happen on various occa- 20 sions?--- About twice a week. Was that for the whole time that he was staying with you?---at first I used to bring him into town, and afte r some time - my lord, for the first month, approximately the first month that Accused No, 1 lived with me, he did not go out, he stayed at home. After that month he started going out twice per week and he went to two places - the one being the Technical College, and the other being the University. Did you sometimes take him to the University 30 and sometimes to the Technical College?--- Well, at first

108 -183- B. SEBEKO. it started off coming to the technical college. We kept coming to the technical college for some time, and then it was changed to the university. Yes, now when you took him to the university, what was the procedure there? Did he... WITNESS: informs the Court that he has a terrible headache. AT THIS STAGE THE COURT ADJOURNS UNTIL 10 A.M. ON MONDAY THE 23RD N OVEMBER, 1964.

109 -190- B. SEBEKO. ON RESUMING ON THE 23RD N OVEMBER, 1964: BENTON SEBEKO STILI UNDER OATH EXAMINATION BY M R. TUCKER (CONTINUED): Now Benton, at the time of the adjournment on Friday, you told his lordship that Accused No, 1 was in your house, and on various occasions, you "brought him into Johannesburg, where he met three Europeans who were travelling with a D.K.W, motorcar?--- That is correct* Now, how long did Accused No. 1 stay your house? -Approximately four months. And how did he come to go and stay somewhere else?- Maleka, came and told me that the parson had to go. And that he will have to go back. at He has got to back to the spot from where he had come. From his parish. him I see?---and that he would take/to a certain spot from where he would be sent for by his parish. Yes, and then did Accused No. 1 take things and leave your house?--- That is correct. his Now, approximately a week after this, were you approached again?---yes, Maleka again approached me. Yes, and what did Maleka say to you?---he told me that the minister had not gone yet. Yes?---And he asked me whether I would again take him and bring him into town, the Wits, Unviersity, and I did so. occasions. I had to bring him to Yes, on various occasions?---yes, on many Now, until when Benton, did this go on?--- This continued until December of last year, I think, and in February of this year, 1964, it started again, up to March,

110 -191- B. SEBEKO, I see. So, from February to March, did you also bring Accused No, 1 into town?---that is correct. And to which spot did you take him?--- Always to the University, and one occasion I took him to Doornfontein. Yes, we will come to the Doomfoiiein incident just now. And when you took him to the University, where did he got to?-- I saw him go through the main gate, and from there I do not know where he went. And where did you see him again?---i would 10 dee him again after about an hour had gone by. I would see him come out the gate, and then he would always get out of another car. The car would pull up next to my car, and he would step out of that car. And what kind of a car would that be?<---- A two-tone D.K.W, It was a white hood and a green body. Is that the same D.K.W. that you told us about on Friday, that used to pick him up at the Technical College?---That is the same car, yes. Now, can you tell us whether during this pe- 20 riod that you were carting Accused No. 1 around, whether you came into contact with a man by the name of Mike?--- Yes, I did. Yes, how did it come about?---accused No, 1, the parson, told me that I also had to fetch Mike, and I had to pick this person up at the c o m e r of Von Brandis and Commissioner Streets in the City, and I had to take him to where the parson lived. Yes, when you speak about the parson, is that Accused No. 1?--- Yes, he has a heavy name. That is 30 correct, it is No, 1,

111 -192- S. SEBEKO Now Benton, did you in fact, pick up this man Mike?--- I did, and he also said that Mike would know my car by the number. Yes. Now will you please just have a look at Exhibit ' , and see if you can see a photograph of this man Mike, in this volume?--- Yes, No. 41. indictment, Accused No. 1?---1 did. My lord, that is Michael Dingaka, T.3 on the And did you then take Mike to Orlando to Now, a few nights after this, were you ap- 10 proached by Uriah Maleka again?--- Yes, Correct* And did he make an appointment with you?'--- Yes, and then did you go to the house where Accused No* 1 lived after you made this appointment?^--- I did. And what happened on that occasion?---at the home of Accused No. 1 was Accused No, 1 and this man Mike, Yes?---And I took them to Doomfontein, At whose request?--- Accused No. l s request, 20 And did he show you to which place you had to take him?--- Well, he said that Mike would direct the way. He knew where the place was. Yes?--- And Mike did direct the way, my lord. And was it a house that you went to?--- It was large house with rooms in the backyard, in Yes, and did you remain/the car?---i remained in the car. And did both Mike and Accused No. 1 get out, or only one?--- Both Mike and Accused No. 1 got out of the 30 car, my lord.

112 -193- B. SEBEKO And did -they enter this house?-they entered by the driveway of the yard, and they went round to the back. Did you, on the 20th of October, 1964, point out this house to Detective Warrant Officer Kennedy?----1 did. My lord, evidence will be led that this is the house of Accused No, 5, where Accused No. 5 lived* Yes, you remained in the car, they went in and what happened then?e I sat there for quite some time. Yes?---Then Mike came out and told me to come 10 inside. Yes?----I walked in with Mike and in the backyard, Mike--took me into a room. Yes?---And he left me in that room, and he went out. Yes?---I do not know where he went to. Yes?---I waited there for a long time, and he came back with a glass of brandy. He handed me the glass of brandy. Yes?---He again left. I again stayed for 20 some time, again he came and called me - Mike, and as I came out * I saw Accused No. 1 in the yard, the three of us then walked. We got into the car and we drove off. Now this room in which you were sitting, can you remember what was in that room?--- I can. Yes?--- There was a bed in there, there was a wardrobe, there was a typewriter in there. I saw, my lord. That is all Yes, and then after this visit to Doornfon tein, did you still continue taking Accused No. 1 to the 20 University?---I did.

113 -194- B. SEBEKO. And you told us that during February and March, you also took him there?---that is correct. Did you stop taking him there during March? It was during the first or second week of March, that I stopped taking him there. Was that because you were arrested?--- That is correot, Yes, Now, can you just tell us this Benton - at all the times that you had dealings with Accused No. 1, was he dressed in the attire of a parson?9 Yes, he 10 was dressed daily in the attire of a parson, Now, tell me, do you, apart from Accused No. 1, do you know any of the other accused?---i have seen No. 3, Yes, where did you see No, 3?---I am doubtful about him, I am not too certain. Yes?---But he looks like the person. During the time that I took Accused No. 1 to the University I saw him there. Where did you see him?---it was outside the 20 University, I recognise him as one of three whom I saw in front of the gate of the University. What kind of people?---i took them to be Europeans. You took Accused No. 3 to be a Sropean?--- I did Now, the three that you speak about, you have on Friday, told us that when you took Accused No, 1 into town, he was met by three Europeans?---Correct. Now, when you said Accused No, 3 was one of three, did you mean one of the threethat used to meet 30 Accused No, 1?'---Yes,

114 -195- B. SEBEKO L.S. GAY. Now, you have told us that you think that you know Accused'No. 3, do you know any of the other accused before the Court, apart from Nos. 1 and 3?---No, I do not, MR. TUCKER: No further questions, MR. BIZOS: Requests a short adjournment.---permission granted. ON RESUMING: AT THIS STAGE THE COURT ADJOURNS. BENTON SEBEKO, still under oath (interpreted) 2.3 i, ^ MR. BIZOS: No questions. 10 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. HARE: Benton, the person that you say is Accused NO* 3, you only saw on one occasion at the University?--- Yes. MR, HARE: No further questions. MR. TUCKER: No re-examination. MR. BIZOS:Objects to the evidence of the accomplices being led in the camera, and gives his reasons, and submits that only in the casts where there is very good reason, should the evidence be led in the absence of the public. 20 MR. MASTERS: Opposes the application, and gives his reasons for this. He informs the Court that he could lead evidence that people have been killed for giving information to the Court, amongst other things. BY THE COURT: Well, the Court has already given a ruling at the outset of the case, and there is no reason to change the ruling at this stage. IN CAMERA: LIONEL STANLEY G R A Y, declares under oath