< 1> Thursday, 30th April, < 2> MR LAWSON: Sir, before we move onto the issues relating < 3> to identification parades and to the calling of

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1 < 1> Thursday, 30th April, < 2> MR LAWSON: Sir, before we move onto the issues relating < 3> to identification parades and to the calling of one of < 4> the eye witnesses, Mr Westbrook, in one sense to finish < 5> off the factual evidence on the information received on < 6> issue 6. < 7> THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. < 8> MR LAWSON: There is few short statements to be read < 9> which Mr Gibson will read now. <10> MR GIBSON: Three statements to be read. First of all, <11> David Ashwell. His statement to the Police Complaints <12> Authority is at reference (PCA ) it is dated <13> 11th September 1997 it reads: <14> "I have been asked by Kent Police to make this <15> statement regarding my involvement in the Metropolitan <16> Police investigation of the Stephen Lawrence murder <17> which occurred in Well Hall Road, Eltham on Thursday, <18> 22nd April I join the Kent Constabulary on 24th <19> June 1965, I have since retired from the police service <20> having completed 30 years. In April 1993 I was a <21> Detective Sergeant, Force Number At that time I <22> was seconded to the then No 6 Regional Crime Squad <23> operating from Northfleet, Kent. My involvement <24> regarding the Stephen Lawrence murder related to <25> information provided by a police registered informant < 1> My only recollection of this informant is that it was a < 2> female who resided in an area" name is given, "at the < 3> time of the murder. I have since been informed that < 4> her pseudonym was 'Betty Widows'. I am unable to < 5> recall the information provided by this informant < 6> without referring to relevant messages and action held < 7> on the HOLMES database for the Stephen Lawrence murder < 8> enquiry. At the time I thought the information being < 9> provided had been obtained through rumour and <10> speculation and that the informant had not witnessed <11> the incident. I have no recollection of a member of <12> the Stephen Lawrence murder enquiry team asking to see <13> either myself or the informant and no recollection of <14> being asked to specifically the task the informant. I <15> had no further dealings with the Stephen Lawrence <16> murder enquiry. I have nothing further to add to this <17> statement." <18> Sir, the second statement is from Kenneth George <19> Chapman, again a statement to the Police Complaints <20> Authority and the reference, if it can be put on the <21> screen, is (PCA ). It is a statement made on <22> 28th July It reads: <23> "Up until the 1st September 1996, I was a serving <24> police officer with the Metropolitan Police. I <25> actually completed thirty one and a half years service 3659 < 1> upon my retirement. From November 1991, until the date < 2> of my retirement I held the rank of Chief < 3> Superintendent and was the Divisional Commander in < 4> charge of Lewisham Division. As such, I maintained < 5> regular contact with many people in the community, in < 6> order to keep a check on community tensions and < 7> problems. None of these people were registered police

2 < 8> inform within the guidelines but were contacts I had in < 9> an official capacity the Chief Superintendent of the <10> area. These contacts included, such people as Members <11> of Parliament, Chief Executives and officer of the <12> Council, Councillors, leader of ethnic groups, business <13> people and youth club leaders. The contact with these <14> people was often two way and I would keep them informed <15> of tensions and police action that would impact upon <16> them and to use each other as 'sounding boards' before <17> making decisions. On Friday, 23rd April 1993, I became <18> aware of the murder of Stephen Lawrence in Well Hall <19> Road, Eltham. However this was on an adjoining borough <20> and I was not involved in this investigation. Early on <21> Tuesday, 27th April 1993, I received a telephone call <22> from a Mr Ken Barry who at the time was employed as Kit <23> Manager at Millwall Football Club was involved in Local <24> Youth Football and is a resident at the Borough of <25> Lewisham. He told me that he had heard about the 3660 < 1> Stephen Lawrence murder and that the 'word on the < 2> street' was that the Acourt brothers were responsible. < 3> Additionally he told me that Brian, a youth worker at < 4> the Samuel Montague Youth Centre, Broadwalk SE9, would < 5> know where they lived and may know them. I established < 6> that Ken or the people that he had spoken to had no < 7> direct evidence of the murder but were only passing on < 8> rumour. Again, I believe it was early on Thursday, < 9> 6th May 1993 when I spoke to Mr Barry. On this <10> occasion when I spoke to him he told me that <11> Brian Harris, a youth worker at the Samuel Montague <12> Club was a witness to the attack. He also explained of <13> the two Acourt brothers, previously mentioned, one had <14> been recently on remand at Rochester, Kent, for an <15> affray. Mr Barry also add that during a football match <16> in 1992 against and all black side one of the Acourt's <17> left after an argument and came back with a knife. <18> Again I immediately passed this information to the <19> incident room. As a result of this I do recall <20> speaking to Detective Superintendent Weeden who was in <21> charge of the investigation and discussing the <22> information I had given. I explained to him that the <23> information I was giving was in itself hearsay that <24> Mr Barry had heard through his contacts and his <25> conversations in the community. However, I ensured him 3661 < 1> that I would maintain contact with him in case any < 2> other useful information came to light. This I did, < 3> but nothing else of relevance ever materialised. At < 4> this time I never did disclose who my contact was to < 5> Mr Weeden or the investigation team because the < 6> information had been given to me in confidence. This < 7> statement is the first time I have disclosed who this < 8> contact was." < 9> Sir, the final statement is a statement from <10> Michael Martin May. It is found at (PCA ). <11> Again a statement to the Police Complaints Authority <12> dated 12th day of September It reads: <13> "I am a Detective Inspector with the Kent <14> Constabulary. I am presently seconded to the South

3 <15> East Region Crime Squad stationed at Swanley Police <16> Station. I have 16 years police service. In July 1991 <17> I was seconded to the Regional Crime Squad at Maidstone <18> Police Headquarters. When the office was transferred <19> to Northfleet I moved also. I ended my secondment <20> about July At this time I was a Detective <21> Sergeant. During this time I was the handler of a <22> registered informant who was allocated the code number <23> M118 and the name of 'Geraldine Goldfinch'. In early <24> May 1993, I received a telephone call from Goldfinch. <25> It was to the effect that an unknown 'Blue is 3662 < 1> responsible for the Lawrence murder. I was aware < 2> through media coverage of the murder of the black youth < 3> Stephen Lawrence. I was also aware that the informant < 4> came from the Eltham area of London. Following receipt < 5> of the information I telephoned the incident room at < 6> Eltham Police Station. I cannot recall who I spoke to < 7> on the phone. I have been shown police records and I < 8> can confirm my first phone call was the 4th May < 9> I can also state I also visited the incident room on <10> 5th May 1993 at Eltham. The reason of the visit is <11> that personally I think it is better to talk to people <12> and discuss the information. The information I passed <13> to the incident room itself was the that Zac Punt and a <14> male nicknamed 'Blue' from Nottingham did the murder. <15> From the way the informant passed the information to me <16> I formed the opinion it was only hearsay and she had <17> picked this up in a pub. I have been shown by DC <18> Newman of the Bridge enquiry team, copies of meeting <19> notes dated Friday 14th May 1993 and Monday 17th May <20> There are two highlighted entries, the 14 <21> stating DS May, SO9 informant said Gary did it, <22> believed to be Gary Dobson. The note 17/5/93 states <23> DS May - informant Norris has been putting it about <24> that he killed Lawrence and Thomas. I have no <25> knowledge of these comments, they did not originate 3663 < 1> from me or my informant. I have also been shown an < 2> undated minute by DS Hughes, 'information from DS May, < 3> now Inspector'. This in fact was info re a Deptford < 4> murder not Lawrence. I can recall this conversation < 5> and I think the incident room came back to me to see if < 6> I had any more updated information. When I visited the < 7> incident room at Eltham, I was not asked to task my < 8> informant. I did not see the senior investigating < 9> officer. The impression I was given by the enquiry <10> team was that they had a good idea who was responsible <11> for the offence and the persons named by my informant <12> were not connected with the murder. Whilst I was in <13> the incident room, I recall a member of the team stated <14> there was also another similar murder that had taken <15> place at Deptford. A call was put to the Deptford <16> incident room passing the information I had given to <17> the Eltham team. I did not receive any feedback from <18> the Deptford or Eltham teams. I can recall one <19> phonecall when I was a uniform Inspector at Sevenoaks <20> Police Station, I had a call from the Stephen Lawrence <21> enquiry team asking if I had any further information

4 <22> that would help the enquiry or if I had any recent <23> information from my informant. I am not prepared to <24> identify my informant. I do pot have a current address <25> or telephone number. I have had two contacts with the 3664 < 1> informant since July 1993 when I left the crime squad. < 2> I recorded the contents of these contacts at Kent < 3> Police Headquarters. This information did not relate < 4> in any way to the Stephen Lawrence murder enquiry. < 5> These contacts were in The informant is no < 6> longer active and do I not have a current address." < 7> Sir, those are the three statements in relation to < 8> issue 6. < 9> THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. <10> MR LAWSON: Then, sir, we move to a different topic and <11> I am going to call Mr Westbrook, please, to give <12> evidence. <13> <ROYSTON JOHN WESTBROOK, sworn <14> <EXAMINED BY MR LAWSON <15> THE CHAIRMAN: Mr Westbrook, thank you very much for <16> coming to help us. Would you be seated. Mr Lawson <17> will ask you questions on behalf of the Inquiry. <18> MR LAWSON: Your full name is Royston John Westbrook, <19> is it? <20> A. Yes. <21> Q. You do not need to speak directly into the <22> microphone, but if you could keep your voice up a <23> little. <24> Mr Westbrook, you helpfully made for the <25> assistance of the Inquiry a statement recently, 8th. P-3665 WESTBROOK

5 < 1> May, and I think have you a copy in front of you there? < 2> A. Yes. < 3> Q. I think you and your advisers should all have a < 4> hard copy, every one else has it. It is not on the < 5> computer system. I am going to ask you to have that in < 6> front of you, Mr Westbrook. I will also show you some < 7> of your earlier statements, since this is not a memory < 8> test, we are just looking for your assistance. < 9> With reference to your recent statement, the one <10> you have in front of you, you say there, do you not, <11> that in April 1993 after you had seen something in the <12> newspaper about police looking for witnesses to the <13> murder of Stephen Lawrence, you made contact with the <14> police? <15> A. Yes, I did. <16> Q. That led, did it not, to you being seen by the <17> police and to you making a witness statement? <18> A. Yes. <19> Q. Can we look straightaway at that in its computer <20> print form, but I hope none the worse for that, <21> (PCA ), the top of that. This is, as I say, a <22> computer printed copy of the statement. It was made on <23> 24th April apparently, the Saturday after the murder, <24> and it was taken from you by a policeman called <25> Canavan?. P-3666 WESTBROOK

6 < 1> A. Yes. < 2> Q. Can you tell us after you made contact with the < 3> police by phone presumably? < 4> A. Yes. < 5> Q. What happened, did somebody arrange to come to you < 6> or were you invited to come to the station or what? < 7> A. They asked me to come to Eltham Police Station. < 8> Q. They asked you to go to Eltham. You were there < 9> seen, presumably, by Mr Canavan? <10> A. Yes. <11> Q. There was an interview, I presume? <12> A. I think basically a statement, I signed a <13> statement and that was it. <14> Q. You told him what you knew and he presumably asked <15> you some questions in the course of that, did he write <16> out a statement? <17> A. I think so, yes. <18> Q. You satisfied yourself that it was accurate? <19> A. Yes. <20> THE CHAIRMAN: The Bishop has pointed out to me the <21> shorthand writers here must hear. Would you call out <22> your evidence as loud as you can and make sure they are <23> hearing you? <24> A. Yes. <25> MR LAWSON: Let us just look through the statement. P-3667 WESTBROOK

7 < 1> because it is the first time it has been referred to in < 2> detail here, the one that is on the screen, where you < 3> described to the police, this is two days after the < 4> murder, what you had seen. Yes? < 5> A. Yes. < 6> Q. You were working at the time apparently at < 7> Grove Park Hospital, were you? < 8> A. Yes, that's right. < 9> Q. You describe getting a cab into Eltham and then a <10> bus to Well Hall Road. <11> A. That's right, yes. <12> Q. At the bus stop you became aware of two black <13> youths being present, did you? <14> A. Yes, at the bus stop, they were in Eltham. <15> Q. I think it is reasonably apparent the those two <16> black youths must have been Stephen Lawrence and his <17> friend Duwayne Brooks? <18> A. Yes, they were. <19> Q. You did not know either of them at the time, did <20> you? <21> A. No. <22> Q. You describe in your statement, as we can see on <23> the screen, one or two other people being present. <24> Then you go on to say that the two black lads walked <25> off down towards the roundabout. Yes?. P-3668 WESTBROOK

8 < 1> A. Yes, I had seen them before because where you are < 2> talking about down to -- well, carry on for a minute. < 3> Q. That is all right? < 4> A. Basically, what happened, we get a cab from < 5> Grove Park and it went into Eltham when we got to < 6> Eltham they were into Eltham, but they walked onto < 7> another bus stop, there is also the bus stop where < 8> Stephen Lawrence was attacked which is further down, < 9> there is another roundabout. <10> THE CHAIRMAN: It is the second bus stop. <11> THE WITNESS: Yes. <12> MR LAWSON: You had seen them earlier on, later on you <13> go into Well Hall Road, yes, and you see them there to? <14> A. They get off the same bus I was on. <15> Q. After a while they walked off towards the <16> roundabout; is that right? <17> A. Yes. <18> Q. If we look at your statement, you tell us whether <19> this is accurate, you see in the middle of the screen: <20> "Very shortly after the two black youths had <21> walked off bus came along and I got on it. That went <22> down Well Hall Road. The next bus stop along I saw <23> them run up to the bus and get on." There was some <24> discussion about where they were going to go, you heard <25> them talking?. P-3669 WESTBROOK

9 < 1> A. Yes, they sat in front of me on the bus. < 2> Q. There was also a foreign girl on the bus, you < 3> thought she was French? < 4> A. Yes. < 5> Q. We know who she is, Marie. Then on to the second < 6> page, as we are on the screen, that second paragraph, < 7> after you talk of the French girl, you got off the bus < 8> at the Well Hall Road stop before the cinema? < 9> A. Yes. <10> Q. As did Stephen and his friend? <11> A. Yes. <12> Q. Then you walked towards the roundabout and Stephen <13> and Duwayne Brooks were walking some 15 to 20 feet <14> behind you; is that right? <15> A. Yes. <16> Q. You saw the french girl get off the bus? <17> A. Yes. <18> Q. At the next stop? <19> A. It was not the next stop. The driver stopped at <20> the roundabout to drop her off. There was not actually <21> a bus stop there, he just dropped her there. <22> Q. You are quite right. I think you heard the driver <23> previously say he would drop her off at the roundabout? <24> A. Yes. <25> Q. She got off the bus as well?. P-3670 WESTBROOK

10 < 1> A. Yes. < 2> Q. And went to a bus stop, where you also joined her? < 3> A. Yes. < 4> Q. Stephen and his friend were there; is that right? < 5> A. Yes, they came over. < 6> Q. If you go over the page, please, page 81, you < 7> describe then that they are having some talk about < 8> football or something at the bus stop and somebody else < 9> came up to the bus stop as well, a blonde haired man? <10> A. Yes. <11> Q. He is not one of the attackers? <12> A. No, he is not one of the attackers. <13> Q. Just to exclude him, so to speak. He joined you <14> at the bus stop? <15> A. Yes. <16> Q. Then in due course, as your statement explains, <17> the two boys, Stephen and his friend, walked towards <18> the roundabout. Yes? <19> A. Yes. <20> Q. I do not think I need put a map in front of you. <21> You know the area, do you not? <22> A. I know the area, yes. <23> Q. You saw them walk across the Dickson Road junction <24> and carrying on down towards the roundabout? <25> A. Yes.. P-3671 WESTBROOK

11 < 1> Q. Let us see what you actually said: < 2> "I then saw a group of about four or five white < 3> men run across the road of the corner of Well Hall Road < 4> on the opposite side of the road. I don't think they < 5> walked along Well Hall Road otherwise I would have seen < 6> them earlier. They ran from the corner of Well Hall < 7> Road and Rochester Way"? < 8> A. Yes, that's right. < 9> Q. "As they ran across the road towards the two black <10> boys the two black boys turned around started to walk <11> back towards the bus stop. My initial impression was <12> that the two black boys had seen a bus and were coming <13> back to the stop. They did not seem panicked in any <14> way. I also thought this group of white boys were <15> maybe running for the bus stop." Yes? <16> A. Yes. <17> Q. Over the page: "The black boys walked off <18> initially from the bus stop, one of them walked off <19> first, the other followed, about 15 or 20 feet between <20> them. By the time they crossed Dixon Road they were <21> together. When they started back for the bus stop they <22> were virtually running together. <23> "The white boys who came across the road were <24> running together in a group. Of this group there was a <25> man with fairish hair to the front of the group.. P-3672 WESTBROOK

12 < 1> "The black boys and these white men collided in < 2> the junction of Dickson Road. This was virtually in < 3> the middle of Dixon Road. One of the black boys was < 4> slightly in front of his friend. The white boys < 5> surrounded the two black boys. They herded round < 6> them. The black boy at the stop stopped like he had < 7> been pulled but he broke loose and carried on running < 8> towards the bus stop. As he got to the bus stop he < 9> turned, round stopped briefly and shouted something <10> like 'get up and run Steve'. <11> "He", that is the one who shouted 'get up and <12> run', this would be Duwayne Brooks, as we now know, "he <13> then ran across the other side of the road and started <14> to run up the hill away from the roundabout towards <15> Shooters Hill"? <16> A. Yes. <17> Q. That is towards you? <18> A. He has gone past me. <19> Q. Yes. Towards the bus stop and beyond? <20> A. Beyond, beyond, yes. <21> Q. You said: "The boy running towards me had not <22> obstructed my view. His friend had been surrounded by <23> these white boys. I saw the black boy fall to the <24> ground. The white boys by weight of number forced him <25> down. He was surrounded by them and he went down. I. P-3673 WESTBROOK

13 < 1> cannot say precisely what it was that made him fall. I < 2> didn't see any blows. The white boys were leaning over < 3> him as went down. He went on his back. He rolled on < 4> his side and away from the group of boys. < 5> "He picked himself up and ran after his friend, < 6> crossing Well Hall Road and running up the hill after < 7> him. < 8> "I didn't think he was hurt. I didn't see any < 9> blood. I cannot say what caused this boy to go to the <10> ground. They surrounded him and he was swallowed up by <11> weight of numbers and force to the ground. <12> "Afterwards the white boys then walked down <13> Dickson Road away from Well Hall Road in a group. <14> After the black boy had gone away the white boys stood <15> there for a few seconds and walked off in a group. I <16> didn't see any of them holding anything or carrying <17> anything. I looked up the hill to see how far the <18> black boys had gone. I saw them still running up the <19> hill. I think the leading boy stopped to wait for his <20> friend." <21> The next thing was the bus came along and you got <22> on it? <23> A. Yes. <24> Q. Together with the French girl? <25> A. Yes.. P-3674 WESTBROOK

14 < 1> Q. And the fair haired man? < 2> A. Yes, and the fair haired man. < 3> Q. You say that the fair haired man made a comment to < 4> you to the effect that he got a pasting, did he not, it < 5> was probably because was black? < 6> A. Yes. < 7> Q. Did you hear anything said or shouted at the time < 8> of the assault? < 9> A. No, what was very strange about it was there was <10> no shouting, there was no racial abuse as such. There <11> was no shouting, no nothing, apart from Stephen's <12> friend Duwayne shouting to Stephen to try and getaway, <13> nobody shouted anything. It was like what happened <14> there, it was over in 10 or 15 seconds flat. <15> Q. Can you give us some idea, Mr Westbrook, I do not <16> know if, like me, you are hopeless at estimating <17> differences, roughly how far away you were, either, if <18> you can measure it, in feet or metres? <19> A. If I am standing directly at the bus stop, I am at <20> the bus stop, Dickson Road would be roughly where that <21> young lady is sat there. <22> Q. So some 15 or 20 feet away? <23> A. Yes. <24> Q. You heard nothing shouted at all? <25> A. Nothing shouted at all.. P-3675 WESTBROOK

15 < 1> Q. I think it was plain to you that neither of the < 2> black boys had done anything to provoke this attack? < 3> A. Not that I can see. I know they had gone up to < 4> the roundabout and I didn't hear anything that occurred < 5> up there. They both came running back and collided. < 6> It was very strange, there was nothing to cause it, if < 7> you had heard someone shouting at somebody else, you < 8> might have thought that is fine it's getting a bit -- < 9> but nothing was said at all. <10> Q. Yes? <11> A. It was very strange. <12> Q. Looking in back to your statement where you refer <13> to the talk on the bus. Yes? <14> A. Yes. <15> Q. You refer to the blonde haired man. Do you see <16> him later on in later dealings with the police? <17> A. I see him once then he sort of disappeared. <18> Q. Do you know his name? <19> A. I don't know his name, the police know his name. <20> Q. Well, we think it must be Jason Shepherd but you <21> do not know the name? <22> A. No. <23> Q. Look back at your statement then halfway down the <24> screen. You say: "I looked out of the window", a third <25> of the way down "of the bus and then saw one of the. P-3676 WESTBROOK

16 < 1> black boys standing by a tree and a car with its < 2> headlights on pulled up next to them." Yes? < 3> A. Yes. < 4> Q. "Prior those this when I first got on the bus, I'd < 5> seen someone run across the road from the car as if < 6> they were going to a house to phone. The blonde haired < 7> man went on to tell me that he knew one of the black < 8> boys and that he had lived near him"? < 9> A. Yes. <10> Q. You describe what happened after that, your <11> staying on the bus and where you went. Right? <12> A. Yes. <13> Q. Further description of the girl who was also on <14> the bus going over the page and of the blonde haired <15> man. Right? <16> A. Yes. <17> Q. I will not ask you more about that. But obviously <18> the police were interested in any description you could <19> give of the attackers or any of them? <20> A. Yes. <21> Q. You were able to describe one of them, were you <22> not? <23> A. Yes. <24> Q. If we go down the screen a bit more, Grace. You <25> said: "The white boys who assaulted the black youth I. P-3677 WESTBROOK

17 < 1> describe as follows: the man I've mentioned before, who < 2> lead them across the road, was aged about 25, 5 foot 7 < 3> or 5 foot 8, stocky build, dirty fair coloured hair, I < 4> think it was wavy. It went up and back from his < 5> forehead. It was shorter at the sides although not < 6> shaved, in general not short. His hair was in < 7> proportion to his body. He wore blue jeans. He wore a < 8> light blue jumper that was tucked into the waist of his < 9> jean. The jumper had a marble effect to it an uneven <10> white varying size patch type markings on it, crew <11> necked and full sleeved." You cannot remember his hoes <12> you said. You said: "I think I would recognise him <13> again. I am confident about recognising him again. I <14> saw him when he came across the road and he faced me <15> when the struggle went on." <16> A. Yes. <17> Q. Just to complete the statement before I go back to <18> that. You then said: "I cannot describe the others, I <19> seemed to concentrate on that one person. They were <20> all about the same height within two inches of each <21> other, all casually dressed but I'm unable to give any <22> detail." You said: "The incident by the bus stop was <23> very quick and lasted about 10 seconds from the time <24> the white men surround the black boy. The attack was <25> entirely unprovoked I saw or heard nothing to give any. P-3678 WESTBROOK

18 < 1> reason for this attack." < 2> Do you remain satisfied that that is an accurate < 3> account of what you saw to the best of your < 4> recollection? < 5> A. To the best of my recollection, yes. < 6> Q. Can we go back please to page 84 and to that < 7> description. You were able, it is obvious from the < 8> statement, to give quite a detail description of one of < 9> the men? <10> A. Yes. <11> Q. You told the officer taking the statement, <12> Canavan, of your confidence that you could recognise <13> him again? <14> A. I did. <15> Q. Did anyone ever ask you, Mr Westbrook, to help <16> prepare an artist's impression sometimes called an <17> E fit, it is done these days with computers, you know <18> the sort of thing? <19> A. They did about three and a half weeks ago. <20> Q. Three and a half? <21> A. Three and a half weeks ago from the start of this <22> inquiry. <23> Q. No one asked you back in 1993 at any time? <24> A. No. <25> Q. Can I just ask you please generally, Mr Westbrook,. P-3679 WESTBROOK

19 < 1> insofar as you had dealings with the police and the < 2> taking of this statement on 24th. I do not know, had < 3> you previously had cause to make a statement to police < 4> about anything? < 5> A. No, I don't think so. < 6> Q. This was a new experience for you? < 7> A. Yes. < 8> Q. You tell us in your own words, how did you find < 9> the policeman who was taking the statement from you? <10> A. At the time, you know, I went in and what I <11> expected was that I give a statement and sign it. I <12> thought that, you know, perhaps I would have to have a <13> look at a few pictures or do something like that. That <14> was never asked. Then, you know, you have all this <15> thing about were the police doing the right thing. I <16> always believed the police did as much they could. <17> Now, because of this Inquiry, it throws some doubt onto <18> it. But to me they did as much as they can but then it <19> is very strange that three and a half years afterwards <20> they ask me to do my first E fit. I do find that a bit <21> puzzling. <22> Q. I think that is probably fair comment, presumably <23> you would have been much more able to assist if you had <24> been asked to do it? <25> A. I did speak to -- someone at Scotland Yard phoned. P-3680 WESTBROOK

20 < 1> me and they said if I had been asked to do it in the < 2> week after the event I would probably have done it but < 3> now it would be recognition but not recollection. It < 4> was far too late to do anything about it. < 5> Q. Yes. I will not say anything about your comment, < 6> that sounds like fair comment to me. < 7> The policeman who dealt with you, although he did < 8> not ask to you assist in that respect, did he appear to < 9> be interested in what you were telling him? <10> A. As far as I could see at the time, you know, I had <11> responded to this appeal for anybody and I had gone <12> into -- they asked me to come in and do a statement, I <13> was unaware of what was happening. I am not a <14> policeman so I don't know what they were doing so I did <15> assume that I would look at photos or something but I <16> never did. <17> Q. I did not ask you before, what is your job? <18> A. I am a support worker with people with learning <19> difficulties. <20> Q. You made your statement then to the police on the <21> Saturday, that is the 24th? <22> A. Yes. <23> Q. We know that some weeks later you were asked to <24> attend an identification parade? <25> A. Yes.. P-3681 WESTBROOK

21 < 1> Q. Initially there was a problem because you were < 2> away from home, were you not? < 3> A. That's right, yes. < 4> Q. I think you had a sick friend who you were < 5> helping? < 6> A. Yes. < 7> Q. There is no question of you being anything other < 8> than willing to assist the police? < 9> A. Yes. <10> Q. Were you contacted further by the police during <11> that weekend of the 24th/25th April after you made your <12> statement? <13> A. There was a message left, I am not quite sure <14> obviously it is a long time ago and I cannot remember <15> the exact dates, there was a message left and I <16> responded to that message and then a few days after <17> that I think they phoned me again and asked me if I <18> could come to some ID parades. <19> Q. That may assist you if you look on the screen at <20> (PCA ). This again comes out of a computer <21> rather than a manuscript one. It is dated 8th May. <22> Yes? <23> A. Yes. <24> Q. What it purports to be, Mr Westbrook, I think you <25> have seen it before, is a record of your telephone. P-3682 WESTBROOK

22 < 1> message. Yes? < 2> A. Yes. < 3> Q. "I believe Canavan wants to speak to me. I was not < 4> available yesterday", that is the 7th, "because I went < 5> to hospital to see a friend and was there all day. I < 6> am presently staying at a friend's and can call." Can < 7> you take that off the screen because it has a phone < 8> number. Is that the message that you are talking of? < 9> A. Yes. <10> Q. I did not mean to take it off but I do not like <11> broadcasting phone numbers. That was a message <12> apparently being left for you the day before, the <13> 7th May? <14> A. Yes. <15> Q. Had been there been any contact by the police with <16> you between you making your statement on 24th April and <17> your receiving that message. Do you remember? <18> A. I don't think there was at all when I went to the <19> first ID parade. <20> Q. That, you think, was the first time they got in <21> touch with you which was about two weeks later? <22> A. Yes. <23> Q. Let us go back and I see you are looking, <24> perfectly sensible, to the statement made to the <25> Inquiry. Let us go back to that, we do not have that. P-3683 WESTBROOK

23 < 1> on the screen. You refer there to the police < 2> contacting you and seeking to see if you could attend < 3> identification parades. Yes? < 4> A. Yes. < 5> Q. Then you refer in your statement to 13th May 1993, < 6> when you were asked to go to Southwark Police Station? < 7> A. Yes. < 8> Q. For some parades. Yes? < 9> A. Yes. <10> Q. Putting this briefly, although you describe it in <11> your statement and you had access or were shown copies <12> of the contemporaneous records, were you not, you were <13> picked up between 9 and 10 in the morning and told that <14> you would be there for about an hour or so? <15> A. Yes. <16> Q. But in fact spent the whole day there. Is that <17> right? <18> A. Yes. <19> Q. You were kept waiting some considerable time, it <20> was not until the after afternoon that you first <21> attended a parade? <22> A. Yes. <23> Q. I will come to the details of the parade in due <24> course. Eventually had you to leave the police <25> station?. P-3684 WESTBROOK

24 < 1> A. Yes. < 2> Q. About 4 o'clock-ish? < 3> A. Just after 4 o'clock. < 4> Q You say in your written statement to us < 5> that when you went to the police station you went to a < 6> waiting room with other witnesses. Yes? < 7> A. Yes. < 8> Q. You were there some time. You say: "I believe < 9> there were problems getting volunteers to stand on the <10> parade and also that some objections were being made by <11> solicitors acting for the suspect." Presumably some <12> policeman told you that? <13> A. The first bit the policeman told me, the <14> objections made by solicitors I found out afterwards <15> something to do with taking video evidence or <16> something. <17> Q. You say: "We were generally left alone in the <18> waiting room although from time to time a policeman <19> would come and apologise for the delay"? <20> A. Yes. <21> Q. You did not know anybody else in the waiting <22> room. You refer to one of the people there, a woman <23> you did not know talking about the suspects and saying <24> something about them being known for committing a <25> robbery and a stabbing?. P-3685 WESTBROOK

25 < 1> A. Yes. < 2> Q. I should say a stabbing in Chislehurst, a < 3> different stabbing? < 4> A. Yes. < 5> Q. Then eventually and after some considerable delay, < 6> you did attend a parade and as we have records of this, < 7> it does not have to be a memory test, we glance on the < 8> screen please at (PCA ). This is the part of < 9> the record, Mr Westbrook, that relates to you. We <10> know, no reason that you should, we know this was the <11> parade on which Dobson stood. Right go to the foot of <12> the page, we have not looked at one of these before. <13> Each of the persons attending the parade, this is <14> not for your benefit particularly, Mr Westbrook, but <15> for anyone else who is interested, the system is given <16> a letter, A, B, C, D, E, et cetera and the suspect, if <17> there is one is X or Y. So on this occasion we see <18> that suspect, who was Dobson, was at place number 7. <19> Of course you would not know that at the time or how <20> these things work. That is how it works. You <21> inspected that parade, the record says, we look at the <22> next page, 462, according to the record what you were <23> asked was as set out there. Does that seem right to <24> you? "You have been asked here today to see if you can <25> identify the person you saw on 22nd April 1993 at Well. P-3686 WESTBROOK

26 < 1> Hall Road, the junction with Dickson Road SE 9 at about < 2> pm a group of white youths attacking a coloured < 3> youth"? < 4> A. Yes. < 5> Q. Do think that is roughly right? < 6> A. Yes. < 7> Q. Then the printed form requires the officer < 8> conducting the parade -- forgive me going through this < 9> with you but it is the first time so you do not mind me <10> using you for this purpose -- the officer conducting <11> the parade is required to go through that: "I am going <12> to ask you in a moment to walk along the line at least <13> twice taking as much care and time as you wish. I want <14> to make it clear to you the person you saw may or may <15> not be here if you can't make a positive <16> identification, you should say so. Please indicate the <17> person by calling out his or her number. Do you <18> understand? " <19> The policeman has recorded you as saying "yes". <20> A. Yes. <21> Q. Does that sound roughly right? <22> A. Yes. <23> Q. We go down the screen please, thank you. It is <24> not your writing and not your record. According to <25> this you went from left to right, you stopped at No 3,. P-3687 WESTBROOK

27 < 1> at No 4 and you went back again to No 3 and you said: < 2> "I am not sure No 3 looks similar"? < 3> A. Yes. < 4> Q. Does that ring a bell? Do you think that is < 5> right? < 6> A. Yes. < 7> Q. Of course we know No 3 was not, in fact, a < 8> suspect. So that was at That is the fist parade < 9> which gives an indication of the delays that day. You <10> had been there all morning in fact and you attended <11> that parade at Were you asked again to wait <12> again in the waiting room? <13> A. Yes. <14> Q. Then there was another parade and this time let us <15> look at (PCA ) please. Your name again on the <16> top. If we go down to the bottom, it is not apparent <17> on this but it is from the rest of the record, the <18> suspect on this parade was in fact Neil Acourt. It is <19> shown as "X", in fact it should have been "Y" but I <20> think we can work out that is where Neil Acourt was on <21> the parade. <22> Go to the next page please 472. Thank you. <23> Again, the same introduction as before. Do you <24> remember that? <25> A. Yes.. P-3688 WESTBROOK

28 < 1> Q. There is a description of you walking up and down < 2> stopping at some of the people saying "no, I don't < 3> recognise anybody"? < 4> A. Yes. < 5> Q. That is timed at 3.56? < 6> A. Yes. < 7> Q. Thank you very much. Can we go back to your < 8> statement, Mr Westbrook, the one you have in front of < 9> you. You described what I have just been through in a <10> little more detail briefly there, do you not? <11> A. Yes. <12> Q. Then you say: "By this time, just before 4 <13> o'clock, I had been at the police station all day and <14> could not wait any longer and left." <15> You have been shown another police document, let <16> us look at it, (PCA ). Go down the screen, <17> please. Paragraph 23 says: "Witness Westbrook had been <18> waiting all day, could not wait any longer and left at <19> 4.15"? <20> A. Yes. <21> Q. You say in your statement you thought it was a bit <22> earlier than that, but anyway you say that you did <23> leave? <24> A. Yes. <25> Q. Do have you any general observations, any general. P-3689 WESTBROOK

29 < 1> comments to make about how you were handled in < 2> connection with these identification parades that day? < 3> A. I felt that we were treated quite well. We were < 4> taken to an identification suite, put in a room and < 5> they brought sandwiches and they made sure we had < 6> plenty of drinks, but it was just the wait. We were < 7> told it would be another 10 or 15 minutes and it was an < 8> hour later, then it would be another 10 or 15 minutes < 9> and it just seemed to go on and on, and obviously we <10> did not know what was happening behind the scenes. At <11> the time I felt the police were doing their job and <12> doing what they were supposed to do. There were <13> objections being raised on all sides about who could be <14> here and who could not be in the lineup. <15> I felt that after the whole day I thought God, I <16> can understand why people do not go through and say <17> they were a witness. If they are left stuck in a room <18> all day it is very boring and very tedious. <19> Q. There were other people obviously waiting as well <20> in the room? <21> A. Yes. <22> Q. Can you describe it generally, how did they seem <23> to be reacting to be left hanging around? <24> A. Basically the same really. <25> Q. Mr Westbrook, you described that experience. You. P-3690 WESTBROOK

30 < 1> did agree to go back to some further parades, which you < 2> did, on 24th May, as your statement makes clear, yes. < 3> At Tower Bridge Police Station initially, then you were < 4> taken to Southwark. Again you say: "We were kept < 5> together in a waiting room and had to wait a very long < 6> time"? < 7> A. Yes. < 8> Q. Then you have been referred to some of the records < 9> of the parades. Let us just look at the relevant page <10> only, (PCA ). Would you accept from me, <11> Mr Westbrook, this does relate to you, your name does <12> in the appear on this page, it does on the previous <13> one. Again the same sort of procedure followed. If <14> you go down to the bottom of the page, you were unable <15> to recognise anybody, this was at 2.15 on 24th May. <16> This was the Jamie Acourt parade? <17> A. That is correct. <18> Q. For completeness, if we look at the other one, if <19> we look at (PCA ). I have the wrong reference, <20> do not worry about it. Can I refer to this, for some <21> reason it is not on the system. There is a record, <22> sir, of Mr Westbrook attending a parade on which stood <23> Norris later on that day. It is timed at 5.11, 3 hours <24> after the first parade you had been on, yes? <25> A. Yes.. P-3691 WESTBROOK

31 < 1> Q. Again, you were unable to recognise anybody; is < 2> that right? < 3> A. Yes. < 4> Q. Thank you. Let me ask you this please: When you < 5> were asked, as were you, by the officers conducting the < 6> parades, if you could identify anybody, the sort of < 7> wording we have been looking at, was your name used in < 8> the presence of the suspects? < 9> A. I can't remember one way or the other. <10> Q. No. We know that one of the other people, <11> Mr Shepherd, one of his complaints was that his name <12> was read out aloud to the suspects. I wonder whether <13> that happened with you? <14> A. I don't recall it happening. <15> Q. Going back then to the written statement you have <16> in front of you there, you refer -- I do not think it <17> matter very much -- to one of the occasions when you <18> were at the police station for the parades, you were <19> there twice, were you not? <20> A. Yes. <21> Q. To being aware that one of the other people <22> present was, in fact, Duwayne Brooks, <23> Stephen Lawrence's friend, who you had seen on the <24> night? <25> A. Yes.. P-3692 WESTBROOK

32 < 1> Q. I do not think you actually recognised him when < 2> you first saw him, but it became clear to you that he < 3> was Stephen's friend, the things he was saying. < 4> A. Yes. < 5> Q. In your statement here, in similar terms you told < 6> something about this to the Kent Police, did you not, < 7> when they came to see you? < 8> A. Yes. < 9> Q. In your statement you say: "He", that is <10> Duwayne, "appeared to be the very nervous pacing up and <11> down having the effect of making the other witnesses <12> nervous. At one stage he asked the police if he could <13> use the phone because he wanted to speak to his <14> solicitor. They took him to a phone across the <15> corridor from where we were all sitting and we could <16> hear what he was saying. It seemed he was giving a <17> running account of the identity parade to whoever he <18> was talking to at the other end of the phone. <19> "When he finished he came back into the room and <20> started asking us questions. He wanted to know if we <21> had identified anyone on the parade and he said <22> something to me like: 'you were the person at the bus <23> stop'. I agreed I was and said to him something <24> like: 'and you are Stephen's friend'. He agreed he <25> was.. P-3693 WESTBROOK

33 < 1> "He then started asking us to give our addresses. < 2> This particularly upset the female witness who was with < 3> us. She was so concerned she went to speak to a police < 4> officer about it. I refused to give him my address as < 5> I felt he could pass it on to whoever he was speaking < 6> to on the telephone. I felt at the time it was a < 7> dangerous thing to give out my address, particularly as < 8> I did not wish to be caught in the middle of a dispute < 9> between, for example, the National Front and the <10> Anti-Nazi League. We had all previously been assured <11> by the police that our addresses would not be made <12> public and I was concerned nobody should have my <13> address." <14> Can we expand on that a little. The comment you <15> made in that statement about not wishing to be caught <16> in the middle was something you had explained as well <17> to the Kent Police, was it not? <18> A. Yes. <19> Q. We will just look at that, if we may. Let us look <20> at the first page first, (PCA ). There is a <21> copy of the statement that you made to the Kent Police <22> in August If we cut through, please, to the next <23> page and to the foot of that page, there too you are <24> dealing with the occasion when Duwayne Brooks was <25> behaving in the manner you described at the police. P-3694 WESTBROOK

34 < 1> station, yes? < 2> A. Yes. < 3> Q. If we over the page, again you refer to your < 4> concerns about his asking for addresses. Then you < 5> said: < 6> "At the time there was a definite feeling that if < 7> you were seen to be helping the black people you would < 8> be targeted by the National Front and if you helped the < 9> Whites you would be the targeted by the Anti-Nazi <10> League and I felt that our addresses might be used for <11> one of these purposes"? <12> A. Yes. <13> Q. That was a matter that you were concerned about? <14> A. Yes. I was not particularly concerned about it. <15> It was stressed to us how much they would protect our <16> addresses. It was basically you felt like you were <17> stuck in the middle of something. You were not sure <18> what you were stuck in the middle of, but you just felt <19> awkward. <20> Q. Mr Westbrook, you were at the time, obviously from <21> your volunteering assistance with the parades, you were <22> willing to assist the police in any prosecution? <23> A. Yes. <24> Q. And to give evidence if called upon to do so? <25> A. Yes.. P-3695 WESTBROOK

35 < 1> Q. You did in due course give evidence, did you not, < 2> I think twice? < 3> A. Yes. < 4> Q. At the Crown court? < 5> A. I have been to the Old Bailey and to the inquest. < 6> MR LAWSON: I am not going to take you to those passages < 7> now. Would you wait there, there may be some other < 8> questions. < 9> <QUESTIONED BY BISHOP SENTAMU <10> Q. Could you get the map on the screen, please. I <11> think the distance you are giving of where the bus stop <12> is and where the Dickson Road is, that is quite too <13> short a distance. I have visited the area a number of <14> times and I think you are not quite accurate? <15> A. I can see where it is. The bus stop is here AND <16> Dickson Road is there. It happened right in the middle <17> of Dickson Road. It didn't happen at a bus stop. They <18> weren't waiting at the bus stop. <19> Q. Where is bus stop? <20> A. If you see Dickson Road, if you slightly up. <21> MR LAWSON: Take this one and mark it with a red pen and <22> it then can be described. We have a set of <23> photographs. The witness has put a red mark on the map <24> to show the bus stop, which is immediately above the <25> right hand limb, so to speak, of the W in Well.. P-3696 WESTBROOK

36 < 1> THE WITNESS: Yes, that's right. < 2> MR LAWSON: Where it is highlighted on the screen, so < 3> just around the corner from ---- < 4> THE WITNESS: Where you have that yellow dot now, it < 5> would be at the top of the yellow dot, about there. < 6> BISHOP SENTAMU: That distance, I would have thought, < 7> is much further than that actually? < 8> A. I wouldn't have, sorry, that is how I see it. < 9> THE CHAIRMAN: We have been and it is a lot further. <10> MR LAWSON: As I have been reminded, there are <11> photographs available to assist us. <12> THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. <13> <CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR KAMLISH <14> Q. I am just going to ask you a few questions on <15> behalf of Mr and Mrs Lawrence. On that last point, <16> have you seen the photograph. It is difficult for <17> anyone to estimate distances from a photograph it looks <18> more like 60 feet, does it not, the distance you have <19> now describe is, in fact, much too short, we have all <20> been there many times? <21> A. You have to remember this is how this is 4 years <22> ago. <23> Q. 5 years ago? <24> A. For me to say whether it is 40 yards or 50 yards <25> I, am not sure, but it was plainly obvious--. P-3697 WESTBROOK

37 < 1> Q. On the night itself? < 2> A. Yes. < 3> Q. Can you just describe the scene as you were < 4> standing at the bus stop in terms of other people in < 5> the area. Can I give you little thumbnail sketch and < 6> see if you agree with it? < 7> A. Yes. < 8> Q. It was not a very busy street at that time of < 9> night but there were some other people about in the <10> street, a few at the bus stop? <11> A. Yes. <12> Q. We know because we have statements from all of <13> them, that there were 5 in all before this happened? <14> A. I've only seen 4. <15> Q. 5 people at the bus stop? <16> A. There weren't 5 people at the bus stop. <17> Q. One person joined the people there at the very end <18> but there was somebody called Joey Shepherd, the blonde <19> haired youth, Miss Marie, you and one other person we <20> do not know the name of who apparently walked off. Do <21> you remember that. <22> A. No, I have no recollection of that person, no. <23> Q. As far as your recollection is concerned at least <24> 3 at the bus stop? <25> A. Yes.. P-3698 WESTBROOK

38 < 1> Q. You, of course, were all white. You, the French < 2> lady and the young boy? < 3> A. Yes. < 4> Q. There were other, not many, but some other white < 5> people visible to you in the general area, the general < 6> vicinity, walking home, crossing the road and so on in < 7> the minutes you were standing there? < 8> A. Probably, yes. < 9> Q. If it had been completely empty, the street, that <10> would have struck you and it did not strike you that <11> way, did it? <12> A. It was very quiet, there weren't loads of people <13> walking up this way or that way. <14> Q. There were a few people, as would you expect? <15> A. Yes. <16> Q. The only two black people you saw at the time of <17> the incident were Stephen and his friend? <18> A. Yes. <19> Q. In a way you and the other young white boy at the <20> bus stop were lucky, were you not? <21> A. Yes, I remember afterwards thinking to myself <22> because it seemed to happen for no reason, obviously <23> you have the racial element now, but at the time the <24> next day I thought that could have been stood at the <25> bus stop and they attacked us for no reason.. P-3699 WESTBROOK