THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA AT CHAPEL HILL SOUTHERN ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM. Piedmont Social History Project. Interview. with RALPH SIMMONS

Transcription

1 THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA AT CHAPEL HILL SOUTHERN ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM Piedmont Social History Project Interview with RALPH SIMMONS Summer 1977 Conover, North Carolina By Patty Dilley Transcribed by Jean Houston Original transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection Louis Round Wilson Library

2 Patty Dllley: You said you knew your grandparents on the Simmons side? Ralph Simmons: I never did see my Grandmother Bowman; she died before I was born. with yellow fever. Ky Grandfather Simmons died after the War was over, He's burled in Virginia somewhere. P.D.: Which war was this? Simmons: The War Between the States. I knowed Grandpa Bowman well. And also my Grandmother Simmons. P.D.: Can you tell me anything about them? Simmons: He was a farmer and later on went to Granite Fails and put up a grocery store, my Grandfather Bowman did. And then when he quit that, he retired and taked it easy. [Laughter] My Grandmother Simmons never did do anything that I know of. She was aged when I was small, and she stayed with two of her daughters. They was farmers before she quit work. P.D.: Your father was a farmer? Simmons: Yes. P.D.i What kind of things did he raise? Simmons: He raised wheat, oats, rye, corn, sweet potatoes, Irish potatoes, and all kinds of vegetables that would grow out here. And of course we had apples and a peach orchard. P.D.: Did he sell his produce in the market? Simmonsi Yes. We raised a lot of stuff and sold it. We had cows and chickens and such like that. And we had stock to do our work with, traveling, and we raised hogs for all our own meat. That was about the only farming that we done, P.D.: So when you were small, you helped them out on the farm?

3 Simmons - 2 Simmons: Sure d id ; had to. P.D.: What kinds of things did you have to do when you were a child, you and your brothers and sisters? Simmons: I looked after the young cattle, calves and hogs. I fed the hogs and chickens and milked and all like that. P.D.: You had quite a bit to do. Simmons: Oh, easy, [laughter] P.D.: Did you go to school? Simmons: Yes. P.D.: Where did you go to school? Simmons: They called it "the poorhouse school." It was right above the poorhouse. Later on they called it "the charity school." P.D.: Where was this poorhouse? T&actly what was that? /the Simmons: You know where'sipe's Orchard Home Is? It was the second,the left hand after you come this way from/sipe's Orchard Home.Probably you've been along there, you noticed them old buildings down off the road a piece? P.D.: Yes. Simmons: That was where that was at, the county home. And the school was just to the right, about half ways between the Sipe's Orchard. Home and before you turn to go into the county home there. P.D.: What kind of people were at this county home? Simmons:It was people that was disabled to work and had no home or no one to stay with. People that were unfortunate in every way that they had to go there. P.D.: These were people from Catawba County that stayed there? Simmons: Yes, I think so. They had them in other counties the

4 Simmons - 3 same way at that time. I think they had them in every county, as well as I know. I know they had them in Alexander County. Just where they had people that couldn't help theirs elves or didn't have no one to take care of them. Now they go to nursing homes. And children, if they're not able to take care of theirselves or parents to take care of them, they send them to some institution like the wipe's Orchard Home and like that. P.D.: Who ran the county home then? Where did the money come from to run it? Simmons: It was operated through the county government. If a Democrat won the election, why, they changed from one to the other. It's like other politics today. Whenever one party gets in, why, they change from that someone to the other party, whenever it changed. That's the way it was. Just like politics. P.D.: So the people that operated the home changed every time there was an election and a different party was in. Simmonst Yes. If they was defeated, the ones that was in, they changed. And they worked those people on the farm there and. grew stuff, and they'd sell it. I don't know whether there was any money donated like they do things today or not. It wasn't much, because there wasn't no money much there then. P.D.: So your first homeplace was out there. Do you ever remember changing houses when you were a kid? Simmons: No. P.D.: Just in one house.

5 Simmons- 4 Simmons: Yes, one home was all I had till I left home. P.O.: And your parents were born right around in that area, too. Simmons: My father was. We lived just a short distance from his old homeplace. He was born and reared in a log house. The fireplace would take four foot of wood. it, two or three hundred feet. Then he built a frame house just above And we carried our water from the spring for a long time. You take back then, people built where they could use a spring. Years ago people didn't dig wells. Now they don't dig them; they bore them. They'd go down and dig them, take a pick and shovel. I've done that, too. And sometimes I hit rock, but I used the dynamite. [Laughter] P.D.: Yes, I remember your story about the dynamite. When you were growing up, your grand parents never lived with you, but they lived with other relatives when they got old? Simmons; Yes. P.D.: Did you ever have anybody in your house besides your brothers and sisters and your parents? Simmons: No. P.D.: Any boarders? Simmons: No. Just the home folk. P.D.; But you had a lot of relatives that lived nearby. Simmonsi Oh, sure. I don't know too much about my grandmother's relatives. There's very few of my grandfather on the Simmons side that I know anything much about. My greatgrandparents come from Holland. My grandfather married in Catawba County back toward the Oxford Dam,

6 Simmons - 5 that section in there. My grandfather was born in Alexander County. His grandparents were from Germany. But I don't know where my grandmother's grandparents were from. There was never anything said about it, or it slipped my mind. Since I got away from home, I never learned too much about such as that. like it is today. Back years ago, there was no records much kept Most of the people realizes that, that they can't go way far back. If you go right down and hunt for it, you could find out, but that's quite a job because you've got so many places to go and look forward to. P.D.i Do you and your family ever have any reunions or any homecomings or anything like that? Simmonsi Nothing more than just the family would get together, probably a few friends. a day or a group or say, We never did have a reunion like they have people that organize and both grandparents and grandfathers and mothers. P.D.i Close relatives. Simmons: Yes. P.D.: Did you have those once a year, or was it whenever you all wanted to get together? Simmons: It was just whenever like if thera was someone away from home and they'd drop in, but we just never had no certain time of year for such as that. P.D.: When did you leave home to get a public job? How old were you? Simmons; Eighteen. P.D.: And you'd never had any work outside the farm before you

7 Simmons - 6 left for your job. Simmons: That's all except just I'd do something for someone, just a little job now and then, maybe help dig a well or do some work on the farm for someone, P.D.: Was that considered public work? Simmons: No, I wouldn't think so. That was just farm work. P.D.; You told me you first started working grading roads. Simmonsi Yes, that's the first public work I ever had. I started out first driving a team to. They called them wheelers, what they hauled the dirt off with. And from that I went to plowing up the ground for the grade. And from there I went to loading the wheelers, and from that I went to cleaning out the right-of-way and doing the dynamite work, loading the powder or dynamite, whatever I used. And I never did use the powder but one time; that was blowing off a hill. Why we used that was because it worked down more than the dynamite did and give them a chance to move more dirt deeper. The dynamite comes up more; it don't go down like the powder. So we used /or it everywhere we needed it blowing stumps out'anything we needed it for, shooting rocks or anything like that. We moved them, too. P.D.i [Laughter] I bet so. While you were doing this work grading, did the different jobs have different pay? Did you get more money for being a dynamiter? Simmonsi Oh, sure. I drew very little more than what the rest of them did. It wasn't much, but it helped out back then because the dollar was like a cartwheel. P.D.t Do you remember what you were making then?

8 Simmons - 7 Simmonsi I started off at $1,25 a day;that was twelve and a half cents an hour. And I never did get over fourteen. We worked for it, too. [Laughter] P.D.i How long did you work for the road people? Simmonsi It was right at two and a half years. P.D.i Which job did you go to right after that? Simmonsi I went then to shop work after that. I went to the Hickory Handle Manufacturing. I worked there till I went to Southern, and then I stopped off at Southern Furniture. P.D.i What kind of work did you do at Hickory Manufacturing? Simmonsi The first work I done was I made what they called picker sticks, and made cotton mill supplies of all kinds that they needed that was made out of wood. And mostly everything was made out of wood then. I don't know whether you've ever seen a loom work or not, but those picker sticks would knock the shuttles backwards and forwards. We'd make lug strops that would slow up these shuttles whenever they'd come in. They'd have a low and a high rate on them. Covered with leather. That would be soft, and that would stop the shuttle when it run in there. And all kinds of pieces that they needed. I just can't call all of them just at the present time. P.D.i What job did you yourself have in the factory? Simmons: When I started, I started to haul logs down, blocks down to the saw that they cut up. They'd get their logs in boxcars, forty-two inches long, and they'd cut them up then, whatever they needed them in for picker sticks or anything they wanted them for, for ax handles or pick handles and such as that.

9 Simmons- 8 P.D.: So you unloaded lumber to begin with. Simmons: Yes, we'd, throw them out on the pile, and then we had a cart that run on a track just like a railroad track. And have just a flat that they loaded them up on that and take them down there and roll them off, and then come back to get more, P.D.: What was your next job? Simmons; The next job I had, I went to sanding hammer handles and ax handles. And from that I went to a joiner. I run a hand joiner that could make anything a straight edge. And from that I went to running a hammer handle lathe, and I run that for four years and four months. We turned a lot of stuff for the government during World War I. I set up the lathe. I got an order for 42,000 claw hammer handles, and before I got them done I got an order for 55,000 more. I turned 97,000 handles before I changed my head. It took me seventy-two days to do it. I'd tear down my head every 20,000 and regrind it and set it back. P.D.i Yes, to make it sharp. Simmonsi And from that I went to overseeing making school desks. P.D.i So you were like a foreman? Simmonsi Yes. And I filed saws during that time when I was foreman for the school desks, and then for spare time when I didn't have enough to do at filing or grinding or build in* lathe heads, I band sawed to keep busy. So if you're tired when you leave your shop, why, you know you earned your money. P.D.i I think it's amazing that you did do a lot of that other work while you were a foreman, too.

10 Simmons - 9 Simmonsi Oh, yes, if there was anything I wanted to do. I made all my forms and all like that and seen that they get the lumber in the kiln and out for drying. And I had quite a few different things to look after, and I done quite a bit of work myself. Sometimes someone would drop out, and I would have to take someone's place or another whenever I had time and didn't have something else to do, keep it a-going. P.D.i So it's not like foremen today. It seems like all foremen today do is supervise. You ask them, "What do you do?" and they say, "Never mind what I do; just make sure you are." That kind of thing. Simmonst I always tried to keep going from little on up. I was always interested in my time. When I was five years old, been six in March, that winter two of my brothers, one iwm.#*t up one morning and make the fire and one the next. (It wasn't like it is now, have it all night tfhey had to start them in the morning, you know. [Laughter]) And they'd kind of fuss about they had to do it, and I told my father, "Call me," and I'd make the fire. And he'd get up; he had a rule to get up at five o'clock seven days a week. And whenever he called me, why, I hit that floor. And I built fires as long as I stayed at home. And I think it was a big help to me to have done that, because I worked years at a shop fifty-seven/and eleven months and twenty-six days, and I only lost thirty minutes from oversleeping. P.D.i The whole fifty-six years? Simmonsi That's all I lost. And my wife called me one time. I always looked out for what my part would be done, and I never looked for no one to do anything for me that I could do myself. And by being late, I only lost fifteen minutes that was my fault.

11 Simmons - 10 P.D.i That's amazing. I'm a terrible oversleeper. [Laughter] Simmonsi The daughter that lives in Atlanta was there, and she had an older boy I was interesting in being a minister. And I'd read the Bible to him a morning, and he got quite interested in reading the Bible. And I just read a little long one morning. [Laughter] That's where I lost my fifteen minutes. P.D.i So you had a grandson that was interested in being a minister, or you were interested in him? Simmonsi I wanted to see.... I was interested in doing it, and I was working with him to do it. And the fellow he was taking his music lessons from was a Norman [Mormon?], and he talked him into going to the Normans and he got kind of messed up in that and went to that, and that throwed me off. He even went over to England and stayed two years. And I'd send him some money. My daughter told me I wouldn't need to do it, but I told them I sort of thought maybe that I was the fault of him being interested in something like that. And I hoped he'd make good out of it, I never approved of that matter of being a Norman to talk him into going to Normans when he was going with his parents to church and attending church regular, and pulling/away from his parents unless he'd consult them with it. And he never.... And I kind of got upset /[Mormons?] about that.and they'd'come here sometimes after that, and I wouldn't accept them in, because I told them that I had a home church and I had a Bible and I used both of it. I attended church as regular as I handily could, and I read my Bible every day. And so I just let them go past. P.D.i What denomination is your family?

12 Simmons - 11 Simmonsi We're Lutherans. Missouri Lutherans. P.D.i What church do you go to? Simmonsi Concordia Lutheran Church. P.D.i That's just across the street from where I live. Did you all go to the Lutheran Church when you were a child and living out in the county? Simmonsi Yes. I was confirmed in what they called the Ohio Lutherans. But they've changed their names. They've united and changed two or three times since that. I just don't know what the name of them is now, but they've changed their name. They united the different churches, you know? And they changed it two times that I know of. And I joined over here. It was a long time before I joined. I attended church over there, because my church home was over just across the road from the Sipe's Orchard Home,the Mount Zion. And I wanted my wife to change it when we first moved out here, because we didn't have no car or nothing like that to go over. But she didn't want to change from her home church. when I got confirmed. In other words, my mother asked me to not change And I told her, well, I couldn't tell her where I'd be at when I'd be old, and maybe I couldn't walk back there. [Laughter] And so I changed. I don't make any difference in what denomination you belong to as long as it proclaims Christ and Him crucified, and work on that ground solid and sound. It's up to you then to do what you do, what you make out of it yourself. It ain't the church you belong to; what you've got there is your starting place. And your finishing place, you've got to finish it yourself. Church won't finish it.

13 Simmons - 12 P.D.i When did you and your wife get married? Simmonst We got married January 26, P.D.1 How old were you when you got married 2 Simmons: I was twenty. P.D. 1 So you started working at Conover Furniture about the same time you got married. Simmons: Yes, I started working there in the fall. P.D.i How did you find out about the job up here at Conover Furniture? Simmonst I had a friend that we went to school together, and he got me the job. He worked there. P.D.i What was your friend's name? Simmons: Warren X(C?)aylor. P.D.: So he was from out there around Simmons; He lived just up the street here., too? It's a brick house now. Maybe it was a frame house where he lived. Just between here and the schoolhouse, just on this side of the schoolhouse. Just straight across up here. Me and him went to school together. His home was up just beyond mine. His home was just beyond the county home. P.D.: Is he still alive today? Simmons; No, he's been dead now eighteen years. I was working under him as a foreman when he died. He was a fine boy, too, P.D,; He went to Southern Furniture with you? Simmons: Yes. He went to carpentering during the first of the thirties, and then carpentry work got real bad of course, all work

14 Simmons - 13 did during the first of the thirties, you know and then he got started off down at Southern Furniture. And he went down there, and we wasn't working very well over at the Conover shop. Of course, they wasn't nowhere at that time, you know. And I started off down there band-sawing at night. They didn't have but one band-sawer. P.D.: At Southern? Simmons; That's all they had. And I band-sawed at night and worked down there till they needed some help back up here at the Conover shop, and I went and worked I believe it was eleven days after I started down at Southern. They was going into the hands of receivers... P.D.: At that time. Simmons: Yes, and didn't have much during the Depression, though it was just sort of breaking off at that time. That was at '34. And they told me that they'd hired a man to band-saw in my place and do my work, and I could stay down there at Southern. And they called me over to the office one evening and asked me whether I could give them some time. They asked me what time I got off and I told them three-thirty, and they asked whether I'd give them a couple of hours a day over there and help them. They said that the man that they hired couldn't do the work that he was supposed to. And I worked for them two years. I filed their saws and built lathe heads and anything that they had to do that they didn't have no one to help do. P.D.: So you worked for two years that you were working for two furniture companies at the same time? Simmonst Sure, P.D.i That's amazing.

15 Simmons - 14 Simmons; Yes, I worked there in my spare time. Sometimes I'd work up till twelve o'clock on Saturday night to get out what they want. P.D.: So you left Conover Furniture because they weren't letting you work fulltime because they were... Simmons: They went into the hands of receivers, and then Broyhlll bought it over. And I had a job, and they never bothered me. Of course, they didn't know nothing about it, as far as that's concerned. P.D.i So you never worked for Broyhlll. Simmonsi No, I never worked for Broyhlll. Mr. Brady was the owner of the plant that I was working for at that time at the Conover shop. J.R. Brady, P.D,i When did you first start working for Southern? Simmonsi It was the first of July, I'd built some lathe heads for them before that. They'd get their lathe heads built at High Point, automatic cuttered lathe heads. And they'd get me to do it so much cheaper than what they'd do it, you know, and they wouldn't have to have the transportation of the heads there and back. And I could do just very near to what they could do to them. I'd make a job out of it that would go, anyway, [laughter] P.D.i Why do you think Southern was going so well in 1934, and then the Conover Furniture Plant wasn't doing well? Simmonst The Conover Furniture was bad finances for it. That's why. And the Depression hit them, and no one was doing any good much at that time. And things were just beginning to start back. Mr. Bolick was a wonderful manager, and he foreseen a far ways, and he

16 Simmons - 15.he's started off with very little and ' got around eight or nine acres to cover his plant now. P.D.i I know it's huge now, just huge. Mr. Bolick was the manager at Southern Furniture. Simmonsi Yes. He was the sole owner till he gave a percent of it to the boys. And whenever they grew up and got big enough, he give them a percent of it. He done the managing of it and the foreseeing and... BRJIN SIDE II TAPE I Simmonsi... to Southern, I done their filing for them, band saws and circular saws and all like that, and also kept up the machinery and sawed some, too, when I had spare time. And then they got to where they'd begin to add more machinery of a different kind, band saws and such like that, and they just give me the upkeep of it. And I done that till I quit. Just done whatever was to be done like upkeep and grinding, making cutters and all like that, made any kind of cutter that they wanted and any kind, of a blade head. One day I was building a lathe head, and the foreman come In and he asked me whether I could build lathe heads. And I says, "Yeah." I had. my patterns hanging there on the wall, and I said, "You see them there?" And I counted them, and I had 123, and of course we discarded quite a few of them from time to time to change off on something else. P.D.i Because patterns changed? Simmons 1 Yes. Erery head we built, we saved the pattern to set back to it to re-turn them.

17 Simmons - l6 P.D.i So you never worked as a foreman at Southern. Simmons: No. They wanted me to, but I always said after I quit making school desks I'd rather have something else,that I could make just about as much money at that as I could being a foreman and would have so few to work with to what I would have, maybe thirty, forty, fifty men to look forward to. But I always had someone to work with every day, you might say, but I always tried to make good, that it wouldn't be no disadvantage between me and them by what I said or done. If I had anything that I wanted to change to make it easier on myself and think I could do more for the company with the same money, I done it. And I'd work with the men or women, whoever was doing that, to show them where it was at and ask them whether they thought it would be better than the way we were doing it, if it turned out more work for the same hours. And we got along well on that. That was one great thing I done that I'm always proud of. And I'd tell them if it didn't work out, we'd change back to what we started on. P.D.; Did any of your sons or relatives ever work with you at the plant? Simmons: Yes, one of my boys, I learned him to build lathe heads. P.D.i Which plant was this? Simmonsi That was Southern. P.D.i Which son was it? Simmonsi Paul. And Joe run a band saw. And also he'd help me after quitting time. If I had work to do after quitting time, he'd help me with my repair work. P.D.t Did you get paid for that extra time?

18 Simmons - 17 Simmonsi Yes, and after they passed the Wage and Hour Law, I got time and a half for that. P.D.i But you did get paid for the extra work before the Wage and Hour Act. Simmonst Yes, I got paid for for my extra work. the Wage and Hour Law, I got time and a half for that. After they passed That's the only way that I mad e any money much out of what I made, because I never got no big salary. Of course, I never fussed for it. But when I quit that building lathe heads course, I was always and such like that, the man they put on (of man to do it before I quit building) told me that they never did pay me enough money for what I done. And I told him, well, I'd agree with him on that, but I said if they'd given me more, I may not have what I got. I may have been careless with it. I got so little I had to be close. P.D.i Did it ever make you mad at times that you weren't getting paid enough? Simmons: No, it didn't. I had a great privilege there. And if they wouldn't pay me what I wanted, I could go somewhere else where I'd get it. But the work I done, I never did like to make no change because it's quite a few people that has work to do that they do just as little as they can job. And they didn't upkeep the stuff like they ought to, and if you go into it you have to work awful hard to get it on the go. When I went to Southern Furniture, they didn't have anyone to do any repair work or anything much like that, and I had an awful hard time. Most all our bearings was Babbitt bearings at that time, and I had over

19 Simmons - 18 them and worked with them. And I taken great interest in doing it right so It'd stay. And I fixed it so whenever I poured one it wouldn't collect no dirt from the end; it would be smooth, and the dirt would pass on by. And the longest ever I had a bearing that I know of to run in a band saw was thirty-two years. They sold it after using it thirty-two years, and the bearings in it I poured before that day. I done a lot of pouring bearings for other companies at spare times. P.D.: Did you go all the way through school? Did you go on to high school? Simmons: When I was school age, the sixth grade was all we had then. If you went any higher than that, you had to go to college, and I never had anything to do that with. Money was scarce then. P.D.: Did your brothers and sisters go all the way through to the sixth grade? Simmonsi Yes, we all went through the sixth grade. That ain't long, you know, the sixth grade. P.D.i It's different nowadays. Simmonsi Sure. P.D.i They put you through twelve years. /US to Simmonst Back then if the parents wanted ' stay at home to help them do work, we done it. We didn't have to carry no receipt or what the trouble was back the next day. and it was a good thing they did. They gradually worked that out, Because if there's anyone that his parents would be careless about their children's education, it made it hard on them. There was so little education if they got all that was coming to them in the free school.

20 Simmons - 19 P.D.i Did you ever have to leave school early or get there late because you had to do farm duty? Simmonst Sure. That was customary for parents to look forward to that. If they needed us, we stayed at home and done what we had to do, and we didn't carry no receipt what was the cause of staying home. We just went back the next day or whatever day it would be, and there was never nothing said about it. They didn't have no report cards or nothing like that. About the only thing they would keep a record of about your coming in [was]whether it was on time or late. That's about all the record there was, as far as I know. They may have had one, but that's the only one that I ever knowed anything about. P.D.i Who was the first one in your family to leave home, to go out to have public work? Simmonsi It was my oldest brother, Arthur, P.D.i And where did he go? Simmonsi He went to Hickory and worked for Piedmont Wagon Shop. P.D.i What other jobs did he have? Simmonsi I just wouldn't say, because it's been a long time, what he done, whether he run a machine or done other work. I just don't remember. P.D.i How about your other brothers and sisters? When did they leave and where did they go? Simmonsi My older sister stayed at home until she married. And she never did work on any public work. And one of my brothers stayed at home until he was twenty-one and then died. My next brother went to

21 Simmons - 20 work up at Granite Falls at some furniture factory, but I don't know what the name of the place was. Conover shop when I left home. I was next, and I started off at the And the younger brother has farmed all his life. My sister, she was the youngest one, and she went to work at a hosiery mill when she was up in years. She never went to work at the hosiery mill till Father died. She married, and she don't work anywhere at the present time, only at home. P.D.i So you never had any of your brothers or brothers-in-law that worked with you at the furniture factories, but you did have your sons? Simmons«That's right. P.D.i Were there ever any strikes or labor organizers that came to either one of the plants, Conover or Southern? Simmonsi It wasn't no permanent organization, but they worked as a group in the plant sometimes and stopped off work a few times, P.D.i There were groups within the plant? Simmonsi Yes, P.D.i What groups were these? Simmonsi The only one at Southern Furniture I know of was in the machine room. But now I want you to know, I never had no interest in it. I always tried to be satisfied, and I didn't pay no attention to what anyone else said. If they said anything to me I considered it all the way through, what that would be or what we had at the present time. And I don't believe in force. If you read your Bible, you'll see in there that you're supposed to be satisfied with your wages. It

22 Simmons - 21 don't say how much or how little. John the Baptist spoke well of that, and also Christ did. And whenever we go beyond that, we go beyond our Supreme Being. And we get too far along sometimes, too. P.D.i Would you consider joining a union? Would that be against those beliefs? Or is it just the idea of unions using force? Simmonst I don't believe in the union. I don't believe that anyone can show me between the leaves of the Bible where it gives you a right to force anyone to pay you more money, I don't think you can. Not to brag or nothing of the kind, because I went through it. And I believe in doing the thing that's right. It don't make any difference what might happen to you here; it's what happens to you beyond the shore, that's it. P.D.: Did these machinists call it a union? Simmonsi No, it was just a made-up group. P.D.i And they struck against the company sometimes? Simmonsi Yes. The first time they done that over here at the Conover shop, I got in sort of late. They asked me if I would be interested in it, and I told them no, I wouldn't be interested in nothing like that, "Well," they said, "what would you be willing to do?" I told them, "I would be willing to take two of you boys that's interested in this and go and talk to Mr. Brady and see whether he would be in shape to do more for us." And they didn't take that view, and I never had nothing to do with it, only went back to work. P.D.i Who were those people at Conover Furniture that were in that union stuff? Do you remember any of their names? Simmonsi There's very few that I could call. But I was the only

23 Simmons- 22 one that didn't have nothing to do with it in the group, and the fireman, the one that done the firing. P.D.i He didn't have anything to do with them either? Simmons: No. P.D.; That was Hill Baker, wasn't it? [He was the only bk. man that worked at Conover Furniture.1 Simmonsi Yes. He's the only one that's living that was working at the Conover shop when I started to work there. He's around ninety-five, I think. worked. Me and him worked together there that day, the first day I He's a fine boy. P.D.i Did he teach you any kind of work your first day? Simmonsi He done the leading. Just like your work, if someone come in with you, you'd have a view over them, and they'd have a forward look to you for some help. P.D.i So he was kind of showing you everything in the plant. Simmonst Yes. P.D,i And you were kind of feeling your way out. Simmonsi It was mostly just labor, just get those logs on that cart and take them on down to the saw. P.D.i I'm going to ask you more about your work. I think I'm going to come back another day. This is really interesting to hear all about all this job. And I think I'm going to come back and ask you a whole bunch more questions about it. Simmonsi Okay. I'll be glad to tell you. The trouble with people, I was taught to be satisfied with what I got, and I always appreciated that I had a wonderful father and mother. They wasn't overbearing over what you should do, but they was always about what to do.

24 Simmons - 23 And it's worth a lot to you. P.D. i How did you meet your wife? Simmonsi I went to a dance one night, and she was there. P.D.i Where did they have the dance? Simmonst I don't know. You ever hear anyone speak of the Deal's Store? The cotton store out there? It was out toward Sulphur Springs, about six miles from here out toward Sulphur Springs, about two miles from Sulphur Springs. And my youngest daughter and I passed along there one time, and I told her that was where I had met her mother. And she asked me if I taken her home that night, and I told her no, I went up towards Turner's Store. And it was a lady, a girl, and I asked her if I could walk by her side and she said no. And I asked her how I'd get by. [Laughter] P.D.i So that's how you met her. Simmonsi [Laughter] P.D.i What did she think about that? Simmons: This was another lady that I spoke to.i was going the other way. [Laughter] I always had something to say that would take care of most anything that come up. [Laughter] P.D.: Did. your wife ever have any jobs outside the house? Simmons; No, she worked at home with the home folks. P.D.i How often have you moved since you were married? What house did you move in first when you lived here in Conover? Simmonst We moved right behind Hunsucker Hardware, the first house behind there. And. then we moved just beyond the schoolhouse, just across the street from the schoolhouse there.

25 Simmons - 24 P.D.i Did you ever live in the houses that Mr. Brady built? Simmonst Yes. P.D.i That was the one by the schoolhouse. SimmonsI Yes, the one there beyond the schoolhouse grounds. It built up since then; all that down the street was built since we lived there. It's the first frame house across the street. P.D.i How many houses did Mr. Brady build? Simmonst I believe he had eight. P.D.i I think that's what Frank Gilbert had said. Did he build those mostly just so people that moved into town who worked there at his factory could have a place to live? Simmons: Yes. When he built the first one that I lived in, he asked me to move in it. And I went ahead and moved, and then I built here years later and moved down here. That was two moves we made after we first come to Conover. P.D.i Did you live over here in the house Mr. Brady built for quite a while before you lived here? Simmonsi Yes, we lived there for some years. P.D.i Did you ever buy it? Simmonsi No, they built them kind of rough, and they built the ceiling too high. It was too hard to heat. We had a lot of sickness, and a large family, too, taken a lot of money. I just saved a little every time I could get some and get enough to help. And the folks wanted me to build a home before I did, and I told them that I would rather wait till I could get enough ahead that I could keep going if anything would go wrong in the family and cost a lot of money to

26 keep going and maybe lose what I had already laid up. Simmons - 25 So I done that, and I borrowed $2,500 when I built this house. And I got it for ten years, so if sickness or anything had happened I wouldn't be strained to pay it, and worked ; I figured, "Well, it won't be too awful much; I can probably get a few payments ahead." if I'd get a setback some way or another. And I wouldn't be in a strain And I did that, and I never bought anything for the house only just what I had to have. two years and twelve days I paid that $2,500 back to them. And in Then I was free with my home. I taken the first vacation they give us on the Fourth of July they give us a week's vacation and I taken that and finished paying for my home, P.D.i That's something. How long have you lived here in your home? Simmonsi We moved here the eighth of July, P.D.i How many years did you rent over here at Mr. Brady's? Simmonsi It was a long time. [Laughter] I lived up yonder a little over four years before I first moved, and then I lived over there the rest of the time. I just wouldn't say the years, but it's... P.D.i I can add them up there. Simmonsi It was four years and four months, I think, we lived up there, and then the rest of the time over here, till we moved down here in P.D.i You mentioned there was a lot of sickness in the family. Was that from living in the too-cold house? Simmons: Back when our children was small, they had a lot of those just minor diseases. They've overdone [sic] that, you know,

27 Simmons - 26 scarlet fever and measles and all like that, they've about done away with that. And people don't know how well they're blessed with it, too, because where you've got a large family and all that come at one time, it's rough. P.D.: Your family had scarlet fever? Simmonsi Oh, yes. Just different things. It was customary for children to have these little diseases. People of your age, if someone wouldn't tell you, you wouldn't know nothing about it unless you'd read it, because they've done away with it. like that, and they done away with that. We had typhoid fever and such My wife had it one time before we were married, but I haven't heard anything of it in a long time. And we had a lot of pneumonia years back, and they've about done away with that. P.D.i How did you heat the house over there by Conover School, the Brady house? Simmonsi With a wood stove. P.D.i I guess that's all they had back then. Simmonsi It wasn't nothing like what we've got now. There wasn't any homes heated much with oil till just right before World War II come along. And they begged people to put in them, and then when they got scarce of stuff from the War they'd beg them to save it, to save the fuel like they do electricity now. They used to beg you to use electricity, and now they beg you to save it. And they might have to more than beg; they may have to stop us at some amount of use. We should be careful with it more than we are at the present time, I think.

28 Simmons - 27 Just like gasoline. We've got two serious points, and that's gasoline and electricity, that people should be careful with. They can use it while we've got it, but if they ain't got it they can't use it. P.D.; I know. People will know when it all runs out some day. You said Mr. Brady asked you to move into the house? Simmonsi Yes. P.D.i Why would he do that if you were already living over there in one of the houses? Did he just build the houses and then want people to move in them? Simmonsi Yes, that's what he built them for, for his help. P.D.i So if you'd refused, would he have said anything? Simmonst No, I wouldn't think he would. There wouldn't have been no reason for him to, because that would have been against my will of anything, if I didn't want to. But he was more or less interested in my way of doing and thought well of me, I think, and I did of him. And we worked together. He was to me just about like a father. P.D.i Was the house that you moved into better than the house that you were living in behind Hunsucker's? Simmons: Well, it was more quartered up, that we got more out of the floor space than we did up yonder. Because they had a big hall all the way through that house up there, and just had a half hall on this one down here, and that helped a whole lot. P.D.: So it was a little bit bigger. Simmonsi Yes. It was easier to heat. P.D.i It was easier to heat the one over at Conover School than it was the one behind Hunsucker's.

29 Simmons - 28 Simmons; Yes. The hall didn't use up as much, and where you have just a half-hall, you didn't have to heat a whole hall to take care of the other part of your house if you didn't use the rooms back where the hall was. We had a stove in all the back rooms, too, but just for everyday, we could cut that off and wouldn't have to heat a whole big hall if we wanted to heat the living room or the back rooms. P.D.; You were talking a little bit about how life was during the Depression or the thirties. Was that right when the plant went into receivership here at Conover Furniture? Simmons: Yes. P.D.; Did you immediately get that job at Southern, or was there a time when you all had some bad financial trouble in your family? Or did you always have a real steady job? Simmons; I always had a steady job. just one among many that didn't have work. During the Depression I was The year before the Depression, we worked four days a week, twelve and a half hours a day, and ten the other and five the other. On Friday we just worked ten hours, and on Saturday five. And to get our orders out that year, to get off for Christmas we worked all day and all night and the next day till three o'clock to get our orders out for Christmas. And on the first of February the next year, they come and said they was going to just give us eight hours a day, and we worked two eight-hour days and they come and said they'd let us know when to come back. And there was time that we never had to work for as much as seven weeks. A few of them might, but the majority of the group didn't have nothing. P.D.: What did you do for food during that time?

30 Simmons - 29 Simmons; I always made it a rule to set aside a little for the cloudy days. And it helped me hold out, but yet after four years it kind of run out. Then I owed a small amount whenever I got back to regular work. I owed less than a fifty-dollar grocery bill, and I owed a ninety-seven dollar doctor bill, and I was back some on my tax. But I never got no strain over it. I got to work and saved and paid it off and got back on my feet and then got to saving to build me a home. P.D.; So this was while you were working at Southern. You got the job at Southern and then paid off all these debts. Simmons: Yes. P.D.; Or you were working at Southern and Conover at the same time. Simmons: I worked on it careful in every way, but when I went to Southern, that's when I got back to regular work, I owed that much. And I went ahead and saved and paid it off. Whenever you get a payroll, the thing to do is to, if you want anything, pay a little bit more than you think you could stand till the next payday. We got paid off every two weeks at that time; it's every week now. And if you had something to save, put more of it in your saving account than really you thought you could make out with, and that's the only way to use a small wage and accomplish anything. And if you owe anything, pay it when it's due, or if you owe anything and it has a date for it, pay it just as fast as you can. P.D.i So you got people to give you some credit...

31 Simmons- 30 B*GIN SIDE I TAPE II P.D.: So credit was customary at that time? Simmons: Yes, that was customary. They'd count it over back at them times for groceries and stuff like that. If you was a normal payer, you had no trouble to get groceries. P.D.: Did some people have trouble getting food back in that time? Simmons; If they was too slow with their payment, they would sometimes suffer from it. Just like some people would get a doctor and wouldn't pay for it, why, some of the doctors wouldn't go unless you'd give him the money before he'd go. But I never did have that trouble. And it's sad that it happens, but it's always something that will happen to show someone for a better way of life. It's like, say, a drought. It'll show someone a better way of life. Take this year up till just a short time; it was the driest time we've had in fifty-two years. And it brings something about it for some cause or another. I was telling the lady that just lives back of us here one day about it. And she asked me what caused the drought. I told her it was just the Lord's will. Well, she said, everybody had a theory. "Well," I said, "that's the only one that I got for you." P.D.: So do you think that the Depression could have been the Lord's will? Simmons; Sure. Yes. It was the time right after, was as big a boom as we've had in my lifetime up to that time. I was speaking of a drought. I don't know whether too many people thinks about it or not, but Joseph found out where his son was, that his brother had sold him to the Egyptians. And they'd taken his many-colored coat and

32 Simmons - 31 dipped it in animal's blood to make him think he was killed. And the way he found out his son was living, his other sons went down to buy food because there was a d epression in their city, and they found out who he was, and that way his father found out where he was at. Something brings on all these things, and some people see it and some don't. It's just like the plague they had, the locusts. They plagued for seventeen years, and whenever the people come to what they should be them locusts went off and drowned in the Red Sea. P.D.: Do you think a lot of people got a good lesson from suffering through the Depression? Simmons: Sure. You take people that used their substance up, their money and whatever they had, in a rough and unfortunate way, why, it would learn lots of people to save. It's always a cause for everything. In the Bible there, it shows you where all these things is and what* /could It's something in there for everything that / happen to a human being. Take your lot and get away from it and do better and have a better life and also the surroundings. And we were talking about strikes. I don't believe in a union on this ground: they probably help some people, and some they don't. Whenever they go on these strikes, there may be some people that are not able to survive it, and they suffer from it. And they can't go somewhere else and make and go back when they go back to work, I don't think. And one of the most things that I'm opposed to, I've not got the real fact on it, but people tells me that if you've got one job, that's all you can do. Say, like I filed saws, that would be my job and after that was done I couldn't do nothing else.

33 Simmons - 32 P.D.: If you were a member of the union, this is the way it would be? Simmons; Yes, that's what they tell me they do. And that's not right. If I go down to Southern Furniture in the morning, why, I am supposed to use my time for the best of their advantage, regardless of how they treat me or anything, what they pay me, how much or how little. And whenever I caught up my work, we used to have just these swings cut-off saws, pull them out by hand. And I'd go and that or do something or sweep the floor. If there was a man out, I'd band-saw or I'd go and run the lathe to keep busy. Sometime someone would be out, and I would take his place. I'd let my work build up on me, and I'd catch it up later on. I know one time I had seventy-five saws behind, and I was doing work helping out before someone else was off. And that's the way I done. I felt that I should do everything to take care of the place and keep it going as I could. When I overseed a crew of men and when I hired a man, I'd tell him, "Now we're going to work for this man. He means for you to make him some money; he's got to have you [do that], to pay you. If he ain't got no money, he can't pay you. If he had the money to live on, he wouldn't need to work you; he could live on what he had. But you're supposed to keep on the go and make a day and make an honest day." And from my help I got more per hour for what my help was than the rest of the foremen did. And I showed up for more for the dollar of labor than the other.... We had three parts going, picker sticks and cotton mill supplies like that and case furniture. And I showed up that I got more for a dollar of labor than the rest of them did.

34 Simmons - 33 P.D.; This was at Conover Furniture? Simmons: Yes. I'd watch the men. There's always someone a little bit slow. And every man has a talent. Some people got the talent to foresee, and some hasn't. Have someone to help you foresee. In other words, if they ain't too secure in life and want to do what they really ought to, it don't help too much sometime, but from time to time you watch and you can lead him on to a better life and make a good man out of him. I worked with the men, and there's lots of the boys that have passed on that was younger than what I was at that time. And their wives come to me and tell me how they appreciated what I done for them. P.D.; Did a lot of the men there that worked with you at Conover Furniture and at Southern, too, go to the church up here at Concordia? Simmons; You take such as that, it's more or less kind of divided. They lived in different locations, and they was reared up in different denominations. And that's just sort of hard to answer. P.D.; But were there some? Simmons: Oh, yes, quite a few of them did. But some of them would live maybe fifteen or twenty miles away, and they went to whatever church they was reared up in. Which you can't blame them for it. Just like I said, it didn't make no difference what church you belonged to as long as they proclaimed Christ and Him crucified. You're safe to belong to that church as any; it's what you make out of it yourself. P.D,: Did you ever have talks with people at the plant? Were there people at the plant who weren't Christians who didn't go to church? Did you ever have talks with them?

35 Simmons - 34 Simmons: Oh, yes. If we had any literature at church, things like quote the Prayer Book or such like that, people that I thought was a little off and probably some of them not attending church, I'd get them some of them and give them to them. And if they moved off or got sick or something and couldn't work, I'd mail them to them. And I'd do such as that that would help. We're supposed to do it, you know, and look forward to it. We were intended to work and proclaim Christ. He said if there's as much as two or three in His name, He'd be there. And if we're not, why.... Of course, that's just a parable, and I ain't scared that I wouldn't be hold in* with Him if I proclaim Him by myself. That was just people is supposed to associate with Christ's work. P.D.; Did you teach Sunday school at Concord la? Simmons: No, I never did teach. I never had too good an education, and I was a little slow speaking. I take after my Grandfather Bowman. He never had anything much to say, and it seemed like he enjoyed he was more or less quiet. But what he told you, you could depend on it, he had the best figured out of it. And my mother taught me, always said, "The least said is the least told over." P.D.: Do you think you were closer to your mother or father? Simmons: Whenever you ask that question, that's customary, for anyone to be closer to their mother than their father, because it's so much difference in what they do for you and what your father does because he's out and gone to bring in what we need for the everyday living. And she's there providing to get it ready for us, and we were