THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA AT CHAPEL HILL SOUTHERN ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM. Carolina Piedmont Project. Interview. with. Fred Fox.

Transcription

1 THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA AT CHAPEL HILL SOUTHERN ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM Carolina Piedmont Project Interview with Fred Fox December 15, 1979 Conover, North Carolina By Jacquelyn Hall Transcribed by Rachel Osborn Original transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection Louis Round Wilson Library

2 Jacquelyn Hall: Where did you come from, where did your people live? FRED I was raised here in the county, here in Catawba County. My father's name was Dallas Edward Fox, and my mother was Minnie Pearl Yount, before she was married. What did your father do for a living? Well, he farmed for a number of years, and then he was working in different industrial plants. How big a farm did he have? Well, one time about three hundred acres. And then, my mother, she had a malignancy, and he sold it. And back then, you know, you just kept going, going it was a bone cancer. And, 'course, she never would give up to have her leg off, and my dad never would force her to have it off. So he had to sell his farm to pay the doctor bills? How old were you when all that happened? This was about a five year ordeal with her, I mean, it was a very slow thing. During this time I guess I was around seventeen when my mother passed away. That must have been quite an ordeal. Well, it was. It lasts, 'course, you know. I just thought at first that it couldn't happen, you know. And then I could see this condition of my mother and back then you didn't have a lot of the painkillers and things that you have now and it was very painful to her. Lot of times day and night without any relief, hardly.

3 Hall 2 What did they do for this pain? Well, see, I was pretty young. I don't know the type of medicine that they gave her, but it was very little. I mean, mostly you just suffered. Well,did he try to hold onto this farm as long as he could? Do you remember when he finally sold it? Yes. Well, that was the last At the end. 'Course he's always wanting to pay his debts. And he says he was going to do it, and he did. I mean, he always took care of of 'em. But you, basically, grew up on the farm. Yes. Well, I'd say, till I was about twelve years old. And my dad was dairy farming, he dairy farmed, too, you know. He was right successful at it for a number of years. Did you help on the farm? Yes, I helped on it, yes. I milked cows. And you didn't have milking machines like you have now. It was all by hand. Did he have tenants, or hired hands? He had eight children, and so he had a built-in crew. /Laughter/ So the children did all the work? We did all the work, my brother and I, with twenty cows. That was ours to milk in the morning before you go to school. Did you have sisters? I have four sisters and three brothers.

4 Hall 3 What kind of work did the girls do? Well, they helped my mother 'round the house, mostly. They didn't do too much of the other work. They would help some, but I always thought they were kind of spoiled. /Laughter/ Not really. I can't hardly remember a time that I didn't work, or do something, you know, and always enjoyed it. What was the first public work that you did? The first public work that I did was with Conover Glove in the summer months. And I would turn and form gloves. You take a glove well, you say "turn the glove" it's sewed wrong side out, and you turn it right, and form it as you put it over a hot form. You know, kind of presses it. Do you know what year that would have been or how old you would have been? I was probably around seventeen. See, I got out of school pretty young. So this was after you were out of school, or was this during the summer when you were still in school? Well, this was a summer month right now, this was a summer month. And then I was back in school, and then I came back and took a job. You were seventeen when you took your first full time job. Right. And so I started next time as a had a brother who's a machinist, and I started in that work, fixing sewing machines. Sewing machine mechanic. Conover Knitting. And the same company that owned Conover Glove owned And at that time I knew that I wouldn't be able to

5 Hall 4 go to college. Going to be hard for me to finish school. And so I had a desire to be a knitting machine mechanic. And so I quit the glove mill. Was in the same company, I asked for a transfer to the hosiery, and I learned to knit. That's operating the machines. In order to be a machinist, it's good that you know how to operate 'em. I mean, know all about the knitting, and you'd be much more effective in your work as a mechanic. And so I quit this job, and took a job knitting. Then, there was no minimum wage, and what they paid you was what you would make. And my first pay for my first two weeks was thirty-eight cents. For two weeks work? That's right. How could that be? Well, you work, I mean, that's what you made. Not only me, but other people if you could take a job, it's on piece work, and the government didn't have to pay you any certain thing. A fellow could work for five cents for two months, if you wanted to work for it, I mean. But do you mean: thirty-eight cents, total, for the two weeks? That's right. Were you only able to produce that much? Well, yes, because at first You didn't know how. Well, no one else I did as well as anyone else. /Laughter/ Who taught you? Well, you would have someone that would help you, someone who's experienced. And then after they'd show you, you's on your own. You'd go ahead.

6 Hall 5 Would it take time off from their work, while they were showing you, so they'd be losing money? Some. Yes. And they didn't take a lot. And, of course, your knitting then, it didn't take long to show you. The machines now, they make the tops and all, but back then, you know, the machine didn't make the top. Had a machine that had two hundred and forty needles in it. Well, you had to transfer that two hundred and forty little rayon, you have so much rayon, and two hundred little points, and you got to put a stitch over every one. And if you miss one, why, it'll run back, and you have a dropped stitch. And that's the reason it takes so long to get up on it. And, too, at the same time I's a-doing that, I took a job boarding socks. And I boarded socks, and was paid for that. work this, and I boarded socks, and I learned to be a machinist. And I was getting paid for boarding, but I wasn't getting paid to learn to be a mechanic. And when I got where I felt like I could handle machines, I told the gentleman 1 worked for that I appreciated him give me the opportunity to work. Of course, I was of benefit to them. Said I was going to Valdese, take a job. "Well," he said, " you don't need to go to Valdese, we'll give you a job here as a machinist. And so I quit boarding, took a job as a mechanic fulltime. That was just on plain machines. And then they got fancy machines, make argyle socks, and all these, you know, with the big diamonds. And the fellow that was over them, he told the company that the mechanics that they had, if they would let him have me to train on the fancy machines, he'd take them. But if they wouldn't let me he called

7 Hall 6 me "Fox" said, "If you don't let me have Fox, I don't want any of the others that you have. We'll go out and hire one." And so I did that. After a while, after this feller, he finally quit, and I took his job. And then I'd go up to Laconia, New Hampshire, where they made the Comet knitting machines. And I'd go up to Pawtucket, Rhode Island, where they made the Banner Machines. And this would be about a six week spell when you'd go. And it was practical work, along with book work, too. And I not only learned to be a machinist, but I got to be a pattern man, which was real unusual. There's lot of fellers that has been a machinist all his life, can never do any pattern work. And I got to do this. And as time passed on, why, they got more and more fancy machines. And they put me over, well, several the machines, and people. And then, several years after that, they put me in charge of all of the fancy machines, the patterns, and all the help, the hiring and firing. And we'd run 'em three shifts. We'd start 'em up at about one o'clock on Sunday night, and never stop the motors till Saturday nig/it at twelve. I mean, they was people that So you had three shifts, the machines were running all the time? Yeak. Three eight hour shifts, just like you would run yours eight hours, and you'd never stop, and I'd come right in and just take right on where you left. And I did this. Now, were you still at Conover Knitting? Un-huh. This was Conover Knitting. And did they run three shifts all through the thirties and forties?

8 Hall 7 Oh, well, back in the early thirties, when I first started the time I'm telling you about in my part no. Back in the early thirty-three and at a time. thirty-fives, they's many plants that was stand for weeks I've seen a furniture factory over here, one that Mr. Brady owned. I wasn't working then, I was small enough to see men.come over there, day after day, and go back home. They said, "Well, if we have an order, we'll work," but they didn't have any. And this lasted till the NRA come in effect, and then they had to pay twelve dollars and twentyfive cent a week, I believe that was the least you could pay. And then you had to be a worker, because they really they had to pay, and you had to be a good producer then. And people that weren't good workers here, that was another segregation point you was out, you see. You mean up until then, there would be people who weren't very good workers? They could work, because they could work 'em real cheap. But, you see, I'd gotten up to where I's machinist, and I passed these, and I knew I had to dig to get what I was after. I knew what I wanted, and did. And then, Mr. Shuford, he owned the Glove and Conover Knitting. And you mentioned about a picker stick, that's 'fore my day, but Well, it had changed to Conover Furniture, wasn't that the name of it? Uh, well, you mean the one that Mr. Brady yes. How they divided, or who bought, or sold what, or how it was, I don't know. But Mr. Brady, he had the furniture, and Mr. Shuford, he wound up with the hosiery. And the glove and the hosiery wasn't that great at that time. But, then, at the end, moneywise, it was the greatest of the two that had

9 Hall 8 Conover Glove and Conover Knitting. You see, my first experience was with the glove, and then I was with the hosiery. And then Mr. Shuford sold out all of his knitting equipment, and then he sold the glove company to Reiegal Textile Corporation. And, so, when he did this see, I was really out of work, or would have been. But the man that bought the knitting machines, he wanted me to go start his machines up. And I told him, I said "I won't work permanently for you, but I will go and start yourmachines." Because a lot of the people who would have jobs that I'd been working with, and working for me. And so I went down, and supervised the setting up the machines, and starting 'em, and getting some patterns, and this type of thing. You mean, you brought with you the people who had been working under you at Conover Glove? * Yes. Lot of 'em, because they had no job here then, because they'd sold Conover Knitting, you see. And he let you hire those people? You just bring 'em with you. Yeah, just took 'em on down there. Yeah. And they's all happy to go, because they were out of work. Now when was this? About? Oh, Lord, I've lost the years. Let's see, forty... It's sometime 'bout the end of the War, I guess, forty-three well, it was after War, yeah. Well, we just need to know generally. And then, after I started those machines, Rlegel Textile, they had bought the glove company from Mr. Shuford. And so they wanted * Rather Conover Knitting

10 Hall 9 me to come back and be plant manager of the glove company. And so I came back. And was a manager of the canton flannel department. When you say "canton," that's gloves that were made out of cloth, you know. And they had a leather section. And I was plant manager over the canton. When you went with Rlegel Textile down to start up the machines, where was that? This was Hutchins, where I went. To the Hutchins Hosiery was the one I went to start the machines up for. And then I came back, and went to work for Riegel. Oh, Hutchins bought the knitting machines. Yeah. Yeah. And you went where, what town? Well, they were between here and Newton. Oh, so you didn't really have to leave the area. No. He didn't get all the machines he bought. The machines were sold to different people. And then I was asked to come back as plant manager, as I said, of the Glove, and I did. And R iegel they kept this plant probably five or six years. And then they sold the plant, the Glove plant. Bost Glove Company bought all the gloves, and had a option to buy all of the equipment, or dispose of it as they seen fit. And so, they were selling the machines. And Dan Long and myself bought some glove machines from Rlegel. (I'm not quite sure if it was R iegel or Bost. Anyway, we managed to get some.) And that's when we started Conover Glove, and I was a major stockholder when we started. I see. So you bought the machines, and started Conover Glove. Bought some, bought some of 'em. We didn't buy 'em all.

11 Hall 10 We bought: many machines after that, but we bought enough to start with. And, again, I took the people that worked for me to start Conover Glove. Started with all experienced people, and could have took several hundred more, but I hadn't room. Just didn't have a plan, you know, and every thing was going pretty fast, and I was moving real fast. Were you a little bit nervous about such a big venture? No. Did you feel sure you were going to be able to make a go of it? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I've always been... I've always made a decision pretty quick, and if it's a mistake, I never look back. I just go on to the next one. And I've made some. And I'm a little bit like Harry Truman, if when I make one and I go to bed and sleep, if it's wrong, I have to look in another direction tomorrow. What's the worst mistake you ever made? I don't know. Seem like all my mistakes have been, in the long run, profitable to me. And, then, with Conover Glove, Dan and myself started it. And then Terrell Webster, used to be a salesman for Warlong Glove, and he went with Bost, when Bost bought this outfit out. And we hired Terrell well, we let him be a third owner in Conover Glove. And then it was three ways. And then we had a plant in Wilkes, and the plant here in Conover. 'Course I know Dan's told you a lot about ch e others, men in Louisiana, and Mexico, and all this stuff, so I won't go into that. But, anyway, Dan and Terrell, they thought we ought to maybe do a whole lot more. And I said, "Well, what do you want to do?" And they told me, and I said, "Well, I'll tell you, I'll sell you my stock." And then they merged with National Linen. I sold 'em my stock, and still worked for

12 Hall 11 'em 'bout three years, as plant manager, purchasing agent. And I was personnel man, did the hiring and firing for the plant here, and at Wilkes, too. Why did you do that? Why did you sell your stock? Well, because I didn't want to be part of a conglomerate. If I owned anything, I wanted to be able to control it. And National Linen is such a large company that they tell you can make this many gloves of such a type, or "You can do this." And they don't understand, a lot of times, that maybe you have fifty thousand of jersey gloves, and you ought to be running making eight, ten, twelve ounce. And they say, "Well, we only gonna put so much in stock inventory, and so we'll not make any more right now." But that's not the reason. You got to make what what's selling, what's moving. And I just didn't want to be part of that. And so I put some money in a. furniture company. 'Fact, started one. You started a furniture company? Furniture. And worked for them too. I mean, I had another feller to I wasn't real active on that, put money in it. And, so, that thing run along for about ten years. And really didn't well, it was getting along all right, making money. Then, after about three years, I decided I'd go out there and work couple years, and kind of see what I could do there. And so I told Dan I decided to leave, and he said, "Good gracious, Fred, I thought I'd leave 'fore you would." And so I went out there, and stayed about twenty-eight months. And we had one trailor when I went out, and we had ten when I left. Paid for. Are a lot of the glove mills around here part of big conglomerates like that now?

13 Hall 12 No. Well, Norton and Newton is a part of a Norton outfit. This Norton Company is a big company. I mean, I imagine, moneywise, they're worth more than National Linen. And they have a plant in Newton, and one out here in the country, and then one down at Maiden. I guess they're still operating those yet. And Southern Gloves, they are a locally owned company, by Mr. Little and his sons-in-law. And he had the Southern Glove, that's between here and Newton. And he has one over at Mountain City, Tennessee, and he has some small plants. I don't know how many he has 'round. And then Carolina Glove, their office is between here and Newton. They have a plant at Balls Creek, and one over at the Carlisle, down towards Taylorsville. Is that locally owned? Yeah. That's locally owned. How far back does that go? That goes back to probably, I'd say, around 1943, or someplace in there. And the one that Norton owns, that goes back to the early well, probably wenties. Mr. Herbert Yount's gone, he started that plant. And then his son and grandson sold it to the Norton Company. It used to be Newton Glove, and now it's called Norton. Mr. Yount started it, Robert Yount? His dad. Herbert, I think he is. Oh, so he's not alive. No. No. Your Conover Glove, you had some operations in other countries? They had in Mexico. How did you decide? How did you happen to

14 Hall 13 Well, now, right then I didn't make a decision to go there, because I had sold my stock at that time. And Dan and Terrell made the decision to go. This was after you Yeah, looking for labor, really. And, too, they say Mexico needed a lot of labor, a lot of people out of labor. But you go down, and till you haul it down and bring it back, and all of the trouble that you go through, they decided just a little too much to do that. Well, did you start having labor problems? Well, they didn't work too good, and it's too far away to manage. And then they sent several people down, and they tried to start it up without trained personnel, was really what they did. But I mean, were you having a labor problem here in the county? No. Well, here, it was just hard to get. I mean, we couldn't get all the people you wanted. See, when I first went into glove, and it was Dan and myself, see, I could have took five hundred people if I'd a had the place to put 'em. But all the other glove companies, they was grabbing help too, because they's experienced, and we had some of the best trained. We had the best of everything over at Conover Knitting, Conover Glove. Why was that? Well, 'cause Mr. Shuford went in at a good time, and he believed in being fair and honest, and he always had bonuses and insurance, and this type of thing, before a lot of the other companies did. And he built his plant, he had about hundred and thirty-eight thousand

15 Hall 14 square feet. And it was all made by hardwood floor. Every feller'd come in, he had a little locker box, if you wanted to lock it to put your personal belongings in. He had a cafeteria. I know when he used to feed 'em for fifteen cent for your lunch. There was a cafeteria in the plant? Over here, yes. The building's over here yet. That's the one that he build, it's Gulf State paper, they own it now. When was that building built? Oh, 'bout nineteen and... well, he was working on it 'long in 1943, 'long in there. During the war he was working on the building. I'm not quite sure. It's a plaque over there. I remember he has a saying over there, it says "Life's Material Resources Are Entrusted to Man by God for the Benefit of All." I mean, that's one the saying that he has It was on the outside of the building? Oh, yeah. It's up over the door where you go in. It's kind of in a marble. If I went over to Gulf State, would I be able to tell what it had looked like when it was No. They have changed it around. They have cut it up and moved, and just they tell me that you wouldn't recognize the plant, hardly, inside. He had a hallway in there, 'bout as wide as from here to the wall there, and it was tile floor, and the walls. The cafeteria he served cafeteria style that had tile floor, and the walls, and all stainless steel. He had the freezer locker, freeze the meat, and one for vegetables. And it was really fixed up. Just an ideal situation.

16 Hall 15 Had there been a cafeteria in earlier plants, the building before that one? Yes. Oh, he had one over in the old plant. BEGIN SIDE II TAPE I Well, he couldn't have fixed it any nicer, really. Just ideal. Now, you're talking about the Hosiery Hosiery and Glove. It was together? them. They were in the same building. All the partitions separated Must have been a big building. Well, as I say, it was a hundred and thirty-eight thousand square feet. It had a basement, and it was pretty good size. I know when Rlegel, they had a warehouse big enough that they had about a million six hundred some thousand gloves. how I know that. /Laughter/ What kind of man was Mr. Shuford? Mr. Shuford? Well, he was a very dynamic man. (Now this is Adrian Jr.'s father). He was a feller that, I think, lived about fifteen, twenty, years ahead of his time. Really? How do you mean? Well, he had visions of he would see things that other people didn't see. What kind of things did he see that people didn't see at the time?

17 Hall 16 Well, he'd see it in many things. He could see that it was necessary to care for his people. And he knew that some mother that had a child, he knew that they had two or three children, and working for him. They&get up, and get the children ready for school, for her to come to work. She wouldn't have time, really, to get breakfast like she would at home } and so about eight o'clock in the morning, they'd have a break. And he knew she can go down and get coffee, and doughnuts, and this type of thing. I thought that was good for him. They'd have a morning break? Oh, yeah, Yeah. Morning break. And if you didn't abuse 'em, you could have a couple.but you'd have morning break, lunch, and then afternoon. And many things. I mean, he would getting land, and buildings. The church over here, he's very instrumental in that church. I went over there. Well, this church, that was all in pines and no road across there or anything. I went over there with Mr. Shuford, and we went around and looked at the land, and got option on the land. And I was member of the church. And we got option on it, and we went back to the congregation. We's up there where the fire station is, our church used to be right in there. And he says, "Fox, you'll have to help me sell 'em on this, now," he says, "'cause they'll think it's a way over in the country." And it was! No road. And, 'course, we did. They bought the land. 'Course he did a lot for the church, too, he give a lot. And Catawba College, he was real instrumental in that. In fact, I think he built a science building over at Catawba College. And always been instrumental in things like that. And cared for people. I mean,

18 Hall 17 their general conditions, health. And he's always interested in people. He thought you ought to and rightfully so see your dentist, and eyes, or whatever. I mean, he cared for people. So what kind of health care did he get you? Well, insurance. He had life insurance that, you know, he would have. And then he had hospitalization insurance. wouldn't be real good, but back then it was real good. The type today And he always give his people a bonus. Was there a company doctor? No, he didn't have a company doctor, no. But he would encourage people to see the doctor regularly? Sure. Yeah. Yeah. He helped, and all this. He knew this was very, very important. And, I mean, that's the reason I say that. You know, lot of people like to wring out everything they can get out of everything, and put nothing back, but I think you are smart if you look ahead. If people are happy I've found this. They's several things that people like in manufacturing, that they don't tell you. Or, not in manufacturing, it's in school, anywhere else. When I was a supervisor, I was always firm, fair, and honest. And anybody that worked with me'11 tell you. Very few times that I've ever had to dismiss anyone, that they disliked me after that, or didn't come back. And I've dismissed some people, and after a while they'd come back and say, "Fred, I'm sorry, I know I was wrong, you was right, and I know you won't work me." And I'd talk with them, I'd say, "Why?" They'd say, "Well, because I quit. I was real mean when I quit, I talked ugly to you." I said, "No, no, if there's a good worker," I'd

19 Hall 18 say, "you're good worker, and you can do the job. And if you want to come back, and feel like you can act in a manner you should, I have no... have no odds with you about coming back to work." And I was willing to take him back. And all the time that I was doing this thing, they had a business school in Hickory, Clevenger's Business School. And they had some courses at Lenoir Rhyne. And I would go to school at night. And I had a friend who used to be a teacher, one of the best in math English teacher and I went to him as a tutor at night. And I took a course. I don't know, 'course I know Dick now over at Carolina; he taught Business Administration. And we'd have, every week we'd have several classes up here, several months in the summer. And the psychology was from Dr. Donald Roy, from over at Duke University. Ain't that right? He used to come up here and taught classes. He taught psychology? Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Donald Roy from Duke. What did you think about him? He's great. Yeah. Was it sort of a business school, or a? It was a community manufacturing and I took everything that they let me. Was it sort of management psychology? Yeah. Management, yeah. And, 'course, it's different. And I've took different courses. Well, I don't remember a lot of 'em, but I did. But this is a way. I mean, actually, when my son was in high school, well all of his schoolwork that he had and my daughter, too

20 Hall 19 why, the math and stuff, I could help 'em with that. Just right along, on through high school. And I really didn't have a certificate from high school. But I'll bet you they's a many a things today that I could do that a lot of 'em can't do in high school. I know that's true. I know that. You talk about psychology, I have a son that has his doctorate in psychology. In fact, he's the dean of the school psychology, up at Wright State University now. /Discussion of son's career./ When you first you were working on sewing machines, a fixer at sewing machines, and you said you changedover to hosiery because you really wanted to learn Well, you see, at that time, to be a hosiery mechanic, that day and time well, anyone going to college was almost impossible, there for a couple years. And to get a chance to be a hosiery machinist was like someone being picked for the... getting a Heisman Trophy, or something like that. And, so, that was the best thing I seen to do. And I knew that, if I mastered this, that there's other things that I could do. And I also owned, me and Ralph White, for about four years, we had what we call "White Fox Knitting Company." And we bought the machines from Mr. Shuford. Feller that I worked for, he had some old machines. We bought 'em from him. We ran that for four years. How big a company was that? Oh, that one was 'bout fifteen or twenty people. But, here again, I was able to hold my regular job, and take care of this. Was that your first venture of owning your own business? Yeah, that was.

21 Hall 20 What kind of building was it in? We had 'em in a place, in a basement. And it was just... worked wonderful. The basement of a not of a house? It was a older home, of an older home. Back then, see, we'd come in of evening me and this other fellow both were mechanics and we'd start 'em up, and we had some women that would run 'em during the day. And if we had one that something happens, they couldn't fix it, we'd just tell 'em we'll let 'em start. I mean, just let it stand. So would they then just go home? They'd do the knitting. No, no. You see, we had plenty machines for 'em to run. No, they didn't go home. Who did you hire to work in that little basement place? Well, just women that I knew, who we knew around here. They was happy to work. It was the happiest group you ever seen. I remember the first money that this fellow was the name of White, we called it White Fox Hosiery. And the first money we took out of it, you know, I didn't have to have the money out of it. The first money we took out, each one of us wrote a check for a 1953 Chevrolet. /Laughter/ Paid cash. Each one of you bought a Chevrolet? Yeah. Yeah Chevrolet. Four doors, and just different colors. So that was 1953? 1953 when we bought the cars. 'Course we'd started a little I guess it's about that, 'Fifty-two when we probably had the machines. And then, I wanted to spent about one hundred thousand dollars, and this

22 Hall 21 feller was real conservative. Honest as he could be. But he didn't was to do it. And, so, I'd sew with these machines, they's real old, 'course, I knew. And the reason that I bought 'em, I could get allotment of silk that nobody else could get. And we made a plain, silk hose. And we sold 'em to National Shirt Company. And lot of people think that all National Shirt socks were made in some big factory somewhere. Just like a lot of people think Hope the Interwoven are all made by them. Why, they're made by people all over the maybe they'll buy from little feller that has thirty machines, somebody has ten, somebody has thirty-five. And they buy 'em, and someone finish 'em, and pack, 'em for them. Why, Conover Knitting, we used to make socks for National Shirt. We'd put National Shirt's band on 'em, or whoever we wanted, you see. 'Course, that's true with all manufacture. Why were you able to get this allotment of silk that nobody else could get? Well, it was... Mr. Shuford. Well, I knew all about the yarn, because I's in the purchasing and yarn with him, too, and elastic and these things. And he was no longer using it. And I knew it was available, and so I told the man that I'd take it. And he said "Ok." And so we took that. And then when the plain socks began to kind of play out, you get a lot into the fancy, and this type of sock made on that machine was kind of going out. And we sold the machines. Well, we could have give 'em away. We didn't make money, when we sell. This was the way I sent my children that's the way I'd paid for 'bout fifteen, sixteen years of

23 Hall 22 college. /Laughter/ With that little No, not with that. I mean, that helped at the time. And I used to go to Hickory, and draw patterns for different companies up there, at night. And change the machine, just to show 'em, you know. Some fellers say, "This pattern can't be made," and they'd tell the owner, and he didn't know. He just owned the machines, and didn't know, you know, enough about it. And this was one advantage that I had, because anyone couldn't tell me that I couldn't make it, because I knew we could, you know. I knew how to make patterns. And I could set 'em up. And I'd go set 'em up the machine. I remember last time I went to Hickory, one feller that owned the machines, he had a fellow over there working on two patterns. And he says, "You can't make this one. But this one you can." And I told him, I said, "Well, the one that he says you can't make, you can make. But the one he's trying to make, you can't make." And, so, I showed him enough to let him work on this other one all he wants to, but, I said, "He'll never make it. Because of its limitation to your machines." That's pretty way And, so, back to the furniture now. I'm retired now, and I have... well, I have a lot of interests. I don't talk a lot about the collect coins, and a stamp collector, and map collector. I cut gemquality gems. And that's what I'm good at now. I can't understand how you had time to develop the outside interests. Well, listen, if you want something done I really believe

24 Hall 23 it get a busy man. Always get a busy man. The busier he is, the more efficient. Now, when I worked, back in the company in the managerial, that's back with Conover Glove, after I'd sold my stock I worked just like if I owned it. You know, I mean I cared. And these other fellers that had jobs I'd go down on Saturday morning. I'd take me sheet just like you have, and I'd write. I'd think about all the things I's gonna do next week. And the thing that I dreaded the most, I'd put that number one on my list. After I got through with that one, the rest of 'em seemed light. But I didn't dodge that one. And I believe in, if you've got something to face, just face it. Head on. What about in your hiring and firing workers? How would you judge what kind of person makes a good knitter, for example? A good worker. How do you make those kinds of distinctions? Well, first of all, you like to know a little bit about their background. And you like to know how they feel, you like to when I was interviewing people, I always like to let them talk, as much as they would. And if you let 'em talk long enough, they kind of reveal. We had a little test, too, you know, dexterity test. You could tell. And most of the people that I hired, I used my judgement on 'em pretty well. And after a while you get to be a pretty good judge of people, of people that'll stay. Not many of 'em that you get fooled too much on, after years of experience. You help people you know. Or you help women, or men, either. They get real upset with one another, and they'll come in and say, "She's done so-and-so, I'm going home, and I'm not going to work. I'm going."

25 Hall 24 And, you know, just fumin'. And I've had 'em a-come in just stomping, and raising sand, and I'd just say, "Well, just set down and tell me about it, now. What happened?" Well, they'd set down and tell me about it. And I'd say, "Well, now, just tell me again, just how did this begin? I don't know if I'm quite sure I understand." And they'd go through it again, and I'd listen. I would never interrupt, unless they'd ask me. I'd let 'em tell me. And then I'd say, "Well, one more time. I know you've told me this twice, but would you tell me once more just how did it begin? I'm not sure that I caught the first part." And they'd go over it again, you know. And by this time, you know, if they's going to quit, they say they's going to go home, or whatever he's going to do, he's going to go out and knock someone down. And they'd say, "Well, uh, Fred, maybe it isn't too bad, after all." But, you see, I'd let 'em talk to me long enough, till they got it out of the system. I never did say, "Listen. You're acting like a child. Go out there, and set down, and go to work." I never did. I never did belittle the person. And that's the thing that you don't want to do. And most time, that third time takes all of the... steam out of a fight, you know. 'Cause they have told you about it. Did you have conflicts that would develop between people? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. What would be the cause of the conflict? Well, if you're sewing different types of gloves, some people like to sew eight ounce, some like to sew ten ounce. And if you're sewing on eight ounce, and if there's one box of ten ounce over there,

26 Hall 25 sitting over there. And say you set it off, and you take it, as it sits there. Well, if I see that's my box, I can set here and fool around, I can get up and go to the bathroom, or I can go smoke. And this other person doesn't want to do that. Well, that's a common thing, you know. Because she was supposed to get that box, it wasn't mine. If she'd a worked, she would have had it. You have to take the boxes in turn, as they That's right. If you push up a certain amount, and you take the one that's next to you. You got a conveyor belt coming down. But the person knows what's in it, why they can loaf, but the person wants to work, it makes them mad if you dodge around. It's different things. Air conditioning. Some people say it's too hot, and one say it's too cold. And I'll say, "Well, if you're cold, put your coat on, or the other one." But this doesn't happen, because she said, "Well, why should I put my coat on?" And she's setting over there. You know, this type of thing. And what I would do, I would set it where it was most comfortable for everyone. And I'd say, "Listen, there is where it's gonna be. Now, this is rule for living by. This is it." And they's time when you have to say people, they appreciate you running a tight ship. As I said before, being honest and fair. Now, if you want to let people get out of control, if you want to lose people, if you want to have no control over 'em, you think that you can start a place, and let people set their own rules and regulations. If you do that, there is nothing, and I'll guarantee you won't amount to anything. Not in business. You won't in school.

27 Hall 26 Why do people want you to run a tight ship, why don't they want to set their own rules and regulations? Well, they get out of hand. Because one'll say, "Well, now, she suggested this. And you did it. But now I'm suggesting this. Now you're not doing it." And maybe one would be where you couldn't, and the other one'd be where you could, you see. And, so, you have got to be the master of the ship. It's like you've got a notion you can't have five captains. You got to have one. He's got to be the captain. And his decision, you've got to follow that if it's right or wrong. Just like you flying on a plane, the stewardess don't say, "We better land, I think we're having trouble." Do you see any difference in the kind of problems that you have to deal with, with women workers, versus the problems that you have to deal with, with men workers? I think women, it's a lot harder for them to forgive and forget, than it is men. And, you say, "Well, now, you're a man." But I've worked an awful lot of 'em, I've seen it. 'Course, now, they's some... extremes cases, both ways. And there's one thing that I always tried to force people to do. You know, long as people and nations talk, there's always a chance of settling things. That's the reason I believe in negotiations with Iran or any of these countries. Even though I understand that the Shah has gone to Panama now. Is that right? I think he has. I believe he's getting ready to go, if he hasn't gone. I've listened to the news last night, I think he's gone.

28 Hall 27 But I think, any time, as long as you can talk and if people say that you set here, and this girl here, and don't talk, you know, that makes your day pretty hard working. And you wonder what she is thinking, she wonders what I'm thinking. And I'd almost force 'em. To one, I'd say, "What are you sewing?" or "What's she sewing?" Get into conversation where one almost had to ask the other one something, you see. And, lot of times, this would more or less break the ice, and they'd start talking again. It's a never-ending thing with people. I mean, lot of people thinks all you need is some money, and a building to start a business. But the management of that thing is very, very important. And selling, too. Do you think you learned a lot from Mr. Shuford? Or who did you model yourself on? Yes, I learned a lot from Mr. Shuford. I learned from all people I've... I've done a lot of reading in my lifetime. And I think I've learned a lot from well, I've always enjoyed reading from history. Churchill, and Franklin Delano Roosevelt. I think Churchill, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, and Edmund C. Hill was three of my favorite speakers, in their days. I don't mean that the other weren't. I have a book there on all of the world's famous speeches, and they're good. And another thing, the National Geographic magazine is a very helpful book. I take that, and I read it just about religiously. Well, I'm interested in many things. I think the more you read, the more you know. And this is the reason that I've say that I don't think I've had a lot of mistakes in my life.

29 Hall 28 And long with this National Geographic magazine, there's a Science Year and a Worldbook that comes along with it. And I always take these, because it has all of the latest medical discoveries, and all of the outstanding people that have passed away, and the work that they did, and that type of thing. And I think right over behind you, there's book there, I think is written by Paul Smithsonian for gem and minerals, in Washington. the Curator of the And people like that, I enjoy talking with 'em. I know him, I've talked with him, and that's a outstanding book there, by him. I find many interests. I was wondering how you would compare the different industries: glove, hosiery, and furniture, and textiles, I guess, would be the other thing that's important. How would I compare 'em Well, in terms of which kind of business you would rather be in, which is a better place for people. Which kind of industry people prefer to work in, if they have the choice. Strange as it seems, most people that could go into furniture, they stay in it most of their lives. If it's in hosiery, they stay there. A lot of 'em, I've heard 'em so many times make a remark. And the feller that's in his thirties, it's, "Well, I'd like to do something else, but I've been here all my life." /TSnd of interview.j