/)U6.lb~ Luis Fernandez Fernandez, Caubi & Fernandez 2250 S.W. 3rd Avenue, Suite Miami, Florida 33129

Transcription

1 /)U6.lb~ 2 (JOG 1 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 2 WESTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS 3 EL PASO DIVISION 4 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA No. EP-06-CR-I045-DB (FM) 5 v. El Paso, Texas 6 LUIS POSADA-CARRILES August 15, GRAND JURY MATTER BEFORE THE HONORABLE FRANK MONTALVO 10 UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE APPEARANCES: 13 For the Government: Margaret F. Leachman Assistant United States Attorney East San Antonio, Suite Edward C. Nucci Australian Avenue, Fourth Floor West Palm Beach, Florida For Lopez-Castro: Gary B. Weiser Attorney at Law Texas Avenue Paso, Texas For Pujol: Luis Fernandez Fernandez, Caubi & Fernandez 2250 S.W. 3rd Avenue, Suite Miami, Florida Proceedings recorded by stenotype. Transcript produced by 25 computer-aided transcription. Nalene Benavides, RMR, err Paso, Texas 79901

2 2 08:51 1 (Magda Montes, Spanish Interpreter, present to 2 interpret for Witnesses Lopez-Castro and Pujol.) 3 THE CLERK: Grand Jury matters regarding 0 4 MR. WEISER: Good morning, Your Honor. Gary Weiser 5 for Mr. Lopez-Castro. Ready to proceed. 6 THE COURT: Good morning, Mr. Weiser. 7 MR. FERNANDEZ: May it please the Court, good morning, 8 Your Honor. Luis Fernandez on behalf of Jose Pujol. If I may, 9 I would like to introduce Santiago Alpizar, a brother lawyer 10 from the South Florida bar. 11 THE COURT: Good morning, counsel. 12 MR. ALPIZAR: Thank you. Good morning. 13 MS. LEACHMAN: Your Honor, Edward Nucci and Margaret 14 Leachman for the United States. We are also ready to proceed. 15 THE COURT: Ms. Leachman, Mr. Nucci, good morning. 16 MR. NUCCI: Good morning, Your Honor. 17 THE COURT: You are on first. 18 MR. WEISER: We are on first. Your Honor, I have got 19 one additional item to present to the Court. I presented a 20 copy to the U.S. Attorney's Office that deals with my client's 21 medical situation, some further reports, along with a list of 22 the medications he is currently under, if I may tender them to 23 the clerk. 24 THE COURT: Any objection to that, Ms. Leachman? 25 MR. NUCCI: No, Your Honor.

3 3 10: this hearing. THE COURT: Mr. Nucci? Thank you. We will have this in evidence as Court's Exhibit 1 for 4 MR. WEISER: Your Honor, at this point, I have no additional evidence to present to the Court concerning Mr. Ruben Lopez-Castro, unless the government -- my concern was that we presented our position statement to the Court, I did not have my client verify that statement to verify as to the 9 10 truthfulness of the statement. for that purpose only, if I may. I could put him on the stand 11 THE COURT: Go ahead and do that, yes, sir. 12 Where is my interpreter? 13 THE INTERPRETER: Here. 14 THE COURT: I didn't see you Mr. Lopez, raise your right hand, please. RUBEN LOPEZ-CASTRO, SWORN 17 THE COURT: Please have a seat at the witness stand and speak into the microphone. Go ahead, Mr. Weiser BY MR. WEISER: MR. WEISER: Thank you, Your Honor. DIRECT EXAMINATION Q. Sir, you are the same Ruben Lopez-Castro who has been summoned before the El Paso Federal Grand Jury here for the Western District of Texas? Na1ene Benavides, RMR, CRR

4 Direct - Lopez-Castro 4 10: A. Yes. Q. Mr. Castro, I asked you to read a response that was made on your behalf in this case called The Witness Response to the Government's Motion for Rule to Show Cause. 5 THE INTERPRETER: To Show Cause? 6 MR. WEISER: To Show Cause A. I'm sorry. What is the question? Q. Did I ask you to read that response? A. Yes, of course, yes. Q. And you have read the response as well as all of the exhibits attached to that response? A. Yes, completely. Q. And but for your age, which I made a mistake on, is everything else therein true and correct to the best of your knowledge? A. Yes, correct. Q. Would you please tell the Court your date of birth? A. I was born September A. 18, THE INTERPRETER: 18, I'm sorry Q. And that would make you 67 of age at the sent time; is that correct? A. Correct. Q. Thank you, s 25 MR. WEISER: Pass the witness, Your Honor. EI Paso, Texas 79901

5 Cross - Lopez-Castro 5 10:39 1 THE COURT: Any questioning of the witness on that 2 subject? 3 MR. NUCCI: Well, Your Honor, I am not familiar with 4 just having him verify it. I would like to cross-examine him 5 on what I consider the facts that are brought up by the - by 6 his counsel's filing. I don't know if this is the proper time. 7 THE COURT: It is the proper time. 8 MR. NUCCI: Okay. 9 CROSS-EXAMINATION 10 BY MR. NUCCI: 11 Q. Mr. Lopez-Castro, you - in the pleading, you - your 12 counsel has made various arguments, which you have verified, as 13 to allegations by Cuba/Castro as to prior terroristic 14 activities against that country. 15 MR. WEISER: Excuse me. Excuse me. 16 A. Please tell the prosecuting attorney that I respectfully 17 decline to answer any questions. 18 MR. WEISER: Your Honor, there hasn't been a question 19 placed yet. If he could just wait until the question is asked. 20 THE COURT: Yes, yes. Let me clarify for the witness. 21 Mr. Lopez, we are not talking about the subject matter 22 of the Grand Jury inquiry. What we are talking about are 23 factual statements made on the response filed on your behalf. 24 THE WITNESS: Okay. 25 THE COURT: And so that there's no confusion here,

6 Cross - Lopez-Castro 6 10:41 1 Mr. Nucci, legal arguments belong to the lawyer. Factual 2 assertions belong to the witness. Your question was predicated 3 4 on argument. That doesn't belong to him. You can cross-examine him on the factual assertions contained. You 5 cannot cross-examine him on the legal argument. That's the 6 7 reason why he has a lawyer. question. So you need to tighten up your 8 9 BY MR. NUCCI: MR. NUCCI: May I have one moment, Your Honor? Q. Sir, is it true that you claim a sense of fear of retaliation because Castro considers you a terrorist? THE COURT: Just a moment. Just a moment. You missed a part -- the interpreter missed a part of the question. 14 THE INTERPRETER: I did, I did THE COURT: it. I'm sorry. You need to rephrase it -- I mean, restate THE INTERPRETER: Yes. Could you restate the question, please? BY MR. NUCCI: Q. Right. Is it your factual assertion that you fear retaliation from Fidel Castro and his agents because you believe that Castro considers you a terrorist? A. Yes, completely, totally. Q. Now, I think one of your exhibits lists at least three 25 allegations of activities against Cuba. Do you recall those? EI Paso, Texas 79901

7 Cross - Lopez-Castro 7 10:43 1 A. Done by whom? 2 Q. By you? 3 A. That I have had activities against Cuba? 4 Q. Yes. 5 A. I don't want to answer that. 6 Q. Are you denying that you have engaged in violent activities 7 against Cuba? 8 MR. WEISER: Objection, Your Honor, asked and 9 answered. 10 THE COURT: Sustained. 11 Q. Will you 1 the Court what activities you have engaged in 12 against Cuba you feel would cause Castro to want to 13 retaliate against you? 14 MR. WEISER: Your Honor, I am going to object on 15 relevancy grounds. I think that is a collateral issue. I 16 think the witness has indicated he is not in a position to 17 answer that question, so I will object on those two grounds. 18 MR. NUCCI: Your Honor, I am going to their factual 19 filing, which is that this man claims a sense of fear of 20 retaliation. And according to their filing, that he has just 21 affirmed based on his his belief that he is cons a 22 terrorist Cuba. So I am trying to find out, in 23 whether belief is reasonable and held in good th and 24 genuine, which is appropriate under the case law, or whether 25 that's just something he is fabricating. If he doesn't want to

8 Cross - Lopez-Castro 8 10:45 1 answer that, that's his prerogative, I guess. 2 THE COURT: The issue here is the fact that the 3 witness swore to the factual assertions made in the response 4 led on his behalf by his lawyer. That's the issue here. 5 Therefore, if you are going to question him about the factual 6 assertions contained in that pleading, show him the factual 7 assertions and just ask him, point blank, Are you telling the 8 judge that this is true? Simple as that. 9 We need to have a set of earphones on Mr. Pujol, 10 because he is not an English speaker. Oh, you have - I didn't 11 see. 12 MR. FERNANDEZ: I'm sorry, Your Honor, he does. 13 THE COURT: Thank you. I should put on my glasses. 14 The law clerk dropped the ball. She didn't tell me about 15 wearing my glasses. 16 MR. NUCCI: May I approach, Your Honor? 17 THE COURT: Yes, sir. 18 BY MR. NUCCI: 19 Q. I am going to hand you, sir, what is the - your Exhibit And I don't speak Spanish, so perhaps the interpreter will help 21 me, and I would just ask you to verify whether this is true or 22 not, the first sentence dealing with a 1973 action. 23 THE INTERPRETER: In October MR. NUCCI: Yes, ma'am. 25 THE INTERPRETER: Do you want me to read out,

9 Cross - Lopez-Castro 9 10:47 1 Your Honor? 2 THE COURT: No, it is not necessary. You can just 3 interpret it for him. 4 MR. WEISER: Your Honor, if I may - 5 THE INTERPRETER: This is in Spanish. 6 THE COURT: Just have him read it to you. 7 A. In October of 1973, participated in a terrorist act against 8 fisherman - a Cuban fisherman where Luis Torna Mirabal was 9 assassinated. 10 THE COURT: Stop for a second. So the record doesn't 11 get all mucked up, who is the speaker on the exhibit? Who is 12 that statement attributed to? 13 THE WITNESS: The government from Cuba is saying that. 14 MR. WEISER: That's my point, Your Honor. I am going 15 to object to the question because he is attempting to elicit a 16 response from a newspaper article that cites the government of 17 Cuba in that response, not my client as such. It is double 18 hearsay. 19 THE COURT: The objection is sustained. 20 BY MR. NUCCI: 21 Q. Sir, do you believe you have a sense of danger because of 22 retaliation from Fidel Castro? 23 A. Absolutely. 24 Q. Why? 25 A. They have been accusing me of being a terrorist for 30

10 Cross - Lopez-Castro 10 10:49 1 years. 2 Q. Well, are those founded accusations or unfounded? 3 A. You go and ask Castro. 4 Q. So you refuse to answer whether there is truth in any of 5 those allegations? 6 MR. WEISER: Your Honor, he asking him to respond 7 to some belief that Fidel Castro has. It's calling for 8 speculation on his part. I would object on those grounds. 9 MR. NUCCI: I am not asking for the witness to 10 speculate. I am asking to find out whether that's true or not, 11 so that I can argue whether the witness has a reasonable, 12 genuine fear of retaliation, because if the things aren't true, 13 that goes to his sense immediate fear. 14 THE COURT: There are two issues here. The first one 15 is the words used and the meaning given to those words. For 16 example, to Fidel Castro, his actions may be terroristic when 17 looked upon from the point of view of a Communist dictator. 18 From his point of view, the actions may be heroic. Different 19 points of view. 20 He just told you that the government of Castro has 21 been accusing him of being a terrorist for 30 years. He has 22 told you that. I mean, and that - and that is shown on that 23 exhibit. That is Fidel Castro saying, This man, Ruben 24 Lopez-Castro, is a terrorist. 25 And you are asking him, Is it true that you are a Paso, Texas 79901

11 Cross - Lopez-Castro 11 10:51 1 terrorist? Well, that's Castro's opinion. 2 MR. NUCCI: Then I will rephrase. I am not asking if 3 it is true he is a terrorist. Is it true that he, in 1973, was 4 involved in the shooting of this fisherman in Cuba, such that 5 his fear would be reasonable or not about these allegations? 6 Because if he is saying, I had nothing to do with any 7 of this, that would be one ground for just - for attacking his 8 fear versus he said, Well, yes, I know why Castro has these 9 complaints against me, because I have engaged in armed 10 incursions, and that is why I fear Fidel Castro. Nothing to do 11 with the Grand Jury in El Paso investigating false statements. 12 THE COURT: The bigger issue here is this, with 13 respect to this witness at this point: Mr. Lopez, is it true 14 or not true that since you left Cuba, you have been active in 15 the anti-castro resistance movement? 16 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is true, Your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Is it true or not true that you have taken 18 leadership roles in that movement? 19 THE WITNESS: No, I have always been a soldier. 20 THE COURT: Is it true that some, if not a good 21 number, of your activities as part of the Cuban resistance 22 movement have been known or are known to the Castro government? 23 THE WITNESS: Unfortunately many of them, yes. 24 THE COURT: And one of those activities or perhaps 25 some of them - more than one are referred to in various ways

12 Cross - Lopez-Castro 12 10:53 1 in the exhibits that you attached to your response? 2 MR. WEISER: Excuse me. Your Honor, I am concerned 3 about the last question the Court asked, if I may tell the 4 Court why. I anticipate, before the hearing is over, that the 5 Court will hear evidence from an expert on Cuban law that will 6 indicate that any and all hearsay that might be elicited in a 7 hearing of this type, even though sealed in the United States 8 of America, could be utilized by the Cuban government to 9 prosecute my client in the country of Cuba. 10 And as such, I am going to - I have never done this 11 before - I am going to object to the form of the question by 12 the Court. I believe it would could be utilized against my 13 client in Cuba. That's a separate issue apart from the Grand 14 Jury issue. I have been told by the legal expert in Cuba that 15 anything he says with any specificity vis-a-vis what they are 16 accusing him of in Cuba could be utilized against him in Cuba 17 under Cuban law. 18 THE COURT: Well, they have to get this transcript 19 from me. 20 MR. WEISER: I understand. 21 THE COURT: They are not getting that transcript from 22 me. 23 MR. WEISER: I understand the Court's position. I 24 don't know what might happen in the future as the case goes up. 25 I just don't know. Just for the record, I object, Your Honor.

13 Cross - Lopez-Castro 13 10:54 1 THE COURT: Ms. Leachman, is this Grand Jury term 2 going to be extended? 3 MS. LEACHMAN: I'm sorry, Your Honor? 4 THE COURT: Is this Grand Jury term going to be 5 extended, do you know? 6 MS. LEACHMAN: It has until the end of February. 7 THE COURT: The end of February. 8 Let me rephrase that question. Mr. Lopez, the 9 attachments to your response - the attachments to your 10 response, the document that your lawyer filed on your behalf 11 contain references to acts that the Cuban government claims you 12 have been involved with; is that correct? 13 THE WITNESS: Correct. 14 THE COURT: Back to you, Mr. Nucci. 15 MR. NUCCI: You know, my only issue, Your Honor, 16 because I would like to pursue that is, obviously, I feel it's 17 not - it's inimical to the United States' attempt to gather 18 the truth to be hamstrung by a dictatorship's rules of 19 evidence. If this man ever goes to the Grand Jury, I cannot 20 not do my job, in other words, be hamstrung in my search for 21 the truth by what might or might not happen in a Communist 22 regime who probably has just show trials. 23 I can't be ruled and I don't think this Court should 24 be ruled by whatever rules of evidence they have or they don't 25 have in the search for the truth, because what I believe right

14 Cross - Lopez-Castro 14 10:56 1 now is that the facts I am trying to garner are basically any 2 fear that this man might have is a disconnect with the United 3 States' present investigation. It has to do with his past and 4 not with the present ongoing Grand Jury investigation. 5 And, you know, it may be that this man does have a 6 fear, because he's made it his life to be an enemy of Fidel 7 Castro, but that is a disconnect with a fear of retaliation for 8 the present purposes. And I would argue that cannot be claimed 9 as a defense; that, you know, in a sense, he comes in with 10 unclean hands. That's his war he has with Fidel Castro. This 11 is a search for whether there is any connection between the 12 government's investigation and retaliation, not what he has 13 done in the past. 14 And so I am trying to find out from this man whether, 15 in fact, that fear is valid and if it's past or present. And 16 to be worried about what might happen in a Cuban court, I might 17 as well throw my pen down. I don't know their rules of 18 evidence. I can't frame my questions in wondering what is 19 going to get out to Fidel Castro. Clearly, this is a secret 20 proceeding, and the transcript won't be handed over. So we 21 ought to be able to do what we do in this country best, which 22 is search for the truth through cross-examination. 23 THE COURT: Mr. Weiser. 24 MR. WEISER: Then let me suggest all he has to do is 25 ask this man if he has a present fear of retaliation. That's EI Paso, Texas 79901

15 Cross - Lopez-Castro 15 10:58 1 what he is saying, Does he have a present fear? For him to go 2 back into the historical events of whether or not he was 3 associated with alleged terroristic activity by the Cuban 4 government, frankly, doesn't have a whole lot to do with 5 today's issue. He can answer whether or not he has a fear 6 today and is that fear legitimate and what is it based on, 7 which he hasn't gone to yet. 8 THE COURT: Perhaps, Mr. Nucci, perhaps I am looking 9 at it from a different point of view. I am not being hamstrung 10 or ruled by whatever rules of evidence the Cuban courts follow. 11 I'm not. I am simply trying to navigate a very difficult 12 passageway here. And the difficult passageway here is the 13 following: This is a secret proceeding, but I have no 14 guarantee that this will always be secret. So what I am trying 15 to navigate here is this: Is there anything that this man says 16 that can be used against him in the future, not by a court of 17 this country, but by some regime that, frankly, has a set of 18 principles that are offensive to us, to all of us. 19 So the issue here is this: Because of his activities, 20 he has a fear from either prosecution - but really the larger 21 fear here is retaliation or retribution. 22 It is pretty clear that every time this man goes to 23 the Dominican Republic, the intelligence services in the 24 Dominican Republic know about it. The article in the Listin 25 Diario says that. When it is so open that the major newspaper

16 Cross - Lopez-Castro 16 11:00 1 in the Dominican Republic ks about it is because - what is 2 the old Spanish saying (Spanish). In other words, it's a 3 wide open secret. 4 He has told you already. He has been active in the 5 anti-castro movement. So is there a reasonable basis to have 6 fear? Yes, there is. NOW, the question you are addressing is, 7 is that fear sent or past? That's the question, you know, 8 just looking at the argument you made, is that present or past? 9 Frankly, if history bears something out, as long as Castro is 10 alive and ticking, it's fair to say that it is present. 11 MR. NUCCI: Well, I don't concede that. THE COURT: Well, help me out. Let me hear your 13 argument. 14 Ms. Leachman. 15 MS. LEACHMAN: Judge, I think the problem here that 16 Mr. Nucci is trying to articulate is that the fear 17 THE COURT: Come forward, please. Because you are 18 fading away from me, please. 19 MR. NUCCI: I don't want to let - we are still not 20 through with the witness. 21 THE COURT: No, we are not. We are not through with 22 this. 23 MS. LEACHMAN: The fear has to be tied to his 24 testimony before the Grand Jury on the matter before the Grand 25 Jury, Your Honor. It cannot simply be a fear of Castro himself

17 Cross - Lopez-Castro 17 11:02 1 in the larger sense of his activities vis-a-vis the Cuban 2 government. 3 THE COURT: But Ms. Leachman, for argument's sake, to 4 illustrate - to try to put some context in this argument, 5 okay, at issue here in the investigation of the Grand Jury is 6 how Luis Posada-Carriles found his way to the united States and 7 whether when confronted - when questioned about that, he made 8 false statements to the government. That is the fundamental 9 issue here. It appears that this man and the other witness may 10 have some knowledge about that. Let's just play this out. 11 Let's just say that the government has reason to 12 believe that these men, Mr. Lopez and Mr. Pujol, actually were 13 right in the middle of the action in secreting 14 Mr. Posada-Carriles into the country. One doesn't have to be a 15 scholar recent Latin American history to know that 16 Posada-Carriles is not a popular individual with the Cuban 17 government. He is not a popular individual with the Venezuelan 18 government. 19 So whoever may have participated in helping 20 Posada-Carriles get from point A to point B, point B being the 21 United States, is someone that is going to - is not going to 22 be looked at upon with kind eyes by either the Venezuelan or 23 the Cuban government. 24 Now, let's say one of those individuals is - I am 25 going to make up a name -- Pepe Gomez, and neither the Na1ene Benavides, RMR, CRR

18 Cross - Lopez-Castro 18 11:04 1 Venezuelan nor the Cuban government ever heard of Pepe Gomez 2 before. Well, they may be mad at Pepe Gomez, but their 3 reaction is, Who is this Pepe Gomez guy? 4 But here, it is not Pepe Gomez. It is Ruben 5 Lopez-Castro and Jose Pujol, which are individuals known to the 6 Cuban government to be actively involved in the Cuban 7 resistance movement. So for the Cuban government, this is, 8 Here we go again, Pujol and Lopez-Castro. 9 So the conduct here, the conduct at issue, looking at 10 it from the Cuban government's point of view, is a continuation 11 of the conduct they have engaged in for the past 30 years. So 12 in a sense for him to talk about this, for him to talk about 13 what he did in the case of Posada-Carriles, for him to try to 14 describe what he has done in the past is simply, in essence, 15 generating evidence against himself, not from our point of 16 view, not from the United States' prosecution point of view, 17 but - or for that matter, from the prosecution by the Cuban 18 government or actually from the point of view of retaliation or 19 retribution by the Cuban government. Mind you, what I was 20 trying to do is just put this in context. 21 MS. LEACHMAN: I understand that, Your Honor, and I am 22 just trying to redirect some of the confusion as well. But the 23 fact of the matter is that Castro already knows these two 24 gentlemen smuggled Posada into the United States. But that 25 being said, it is this gentleman's burden to demonstrate that EI Paso, Texas 79901

19 Cross - Lopez-Castro 19 11:06 1 he has a legitimate fear of retaliation vis-a-vis his testimony 2 in this case. It is his burden to prove that he has a fear of 3 foreign prosecution. 4 If he will not provide testimony, he cannot meet his 5 burden. Or if he cannot provide evidence in some form that 6 will substantiate those claims, he cannot meet his burden. It 7 is not the government's burden to make the showing that he 8 has - he has no just cause. It is his burden to show he has 9 just cause, Your Honor. 10 THE COURT: So what you are suggesting is that - what 11 you are suggesting is that with the documentation that is 12 before the Court in the form Castro's speech to the Syrian 13 Embassy in the form of the request from the Mexican Congress 14 for the investigation of the Posada-Carriles transit to the 15 country of Mexico, to them, too, that none of those documents 16 are sufficient for me to establish by at least a preponderance 17 of the evidence - in fact, let's go a step forward - by clear 18 and convincing evidence that he has a present fear of 19 retribution or retaliation by government - by Cuban government 20 agents? 21 MS. LEACHMAN: No. That's right. That is exactly 22 right. 23 MR. NUCCI: Let me ask some more questions, 24 Your Honor. 25 THE COURT: Go ahead.

20 Cross - Lopez-Castro 20 11:09 1 BY MR. NUCCI: 2 Q. Mr. Lopez-Castro, tell me who has threatened you with 3 retaliation should you testify in a secret Grand Jury 4 proceeding in El Paso? 5 A. Very respect ly, I decline to answer those types of 6 questions. 7 Q. When were you threatened if you should testify in a secret 8 Grand Jury proceeding in El Paso? 9 A. Tell the U.S. Prosecutor that I am ready to go to jail in 10 the United States instead of being shot in Cuba. 11 THE COURT: Instead of being executed. 12 Q. Tell me who has threatened you the United States with 13 retaliation should you testify at Paso and give me the 14 specifics of any such threat. 15 A. Very respectfully, I decline to answer any of those types 16 of questions. 17 Q. If you had a specific and immediate threat, would you agree 18 to be protected by the United States Government for your 19 testimony? 20 A. I would have to consult with my attorney. 21 MR. WEISER: May I approach? 22 THE COURT: Sure. In fact, if you want, Mr. Weiser, 23 you can sit in the back of the courtroom if you want a little 24 more privacy. 25 MR. WEISER: It will ta just a second.

21 Cross - Lopez-Castro 21 11:10 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 (Consultation off the record.) 3 THE WITNESS: May I answer? 4 MR. NUCCI: Yes. 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 THE WITNESS: It's not - I am not only afraid of what 7 can happen to me. I have two sons and two grandchildren - 8 THE INTERPRETER: Indicating male grandchildren. 9 THE WITNESS: living outside of the United States 10 in the Dominican Republic. Who is going to protect them? 11 BY MR. NUCCI: 12 Q. My question, sir, is please tell me and the Court who, 13 when, and with what terms were you threatened if you should 14 testify at a Grand Jury proceeding in El Paso? 15 MR. WEISER: Objection, asked and answered. 16 THE COURT: Sustained. 17 BY MR. NUCCI: 18 Q. Tell me the terms - I haven't asked you this - of any 19 threats that were made? What was said would be done to you or 20 your family if you testified in El Paso? 21 A. I respectfully decline to answer that question. 22 Q. What steps have you taken to avert any specific threat that 23 has been made, in other words, have you gone to the police, 24 have you notified the United States Attorney? 25 A. With all respect, it's apparent that the U.S. Attorney does

22 Cross - Lopez-Castro 22 11:13 1 not know the capability of damage that the Cuban government can 2 do. 3 Q. Sir, isn't it true that any fear of retaliation you have 4 stems from your lifelong activities against Castro and not 5 anything to do with your testimony in the Grand Jury? 6 A. I believe that the judge explained to you the parallel that 7 there is in my denying to answer. 8 Q. Do you want me to repeat the question? 9 A. Yes, please. 10 Q. Isn't it true that you are afraid of retaliation for your 11 lifelong resistance to Fidel Castro and not because of any 12 testimony in a Grand Jury in El Paso? 13 A. Any testimony that I might give before the Grand Jury in 14 El Paso here, I am afraid that it could be used to influence or 15 for another government to persecute me. 16 Q. Then please tell me where you would be prosecuted. 17 MR. WEISER: Pardon me. I don't mean to quarrel with 18 the interpretation. I believe he went one step further in the 19 response. What he said was, I believe, was for the government 20 of Cuba to get information from another country to prosecute 21 me. 22 THE INTERPRETER: I tried to get that and then I was 23 overstepped. 24 THE COURT: Just a moment. Ms. Montes, you really, 25 really need to make an effort.

23 Cross - Lopez-Castro 23 11:15 1 THE INTERPRETER: I am trying to, sir. I just get 2 stepped over when they are talking. 3 THE COURT: Back to you, Mr. Nucci. 4 BY MR. NUCCI: 5 Q. What countries have charged you with a crime regarding the 6 events of March 2005 with Luis Posada-Carriles coming into the 7 United States? 8 A. None. 9 Q. No single country has charged you, have they? 10 A. None. 11 Q. And no country is investigating you, either? 12 MR. WEISER: Objection, that question calls for 13 speculation. 14 Q. That you know, do you know of any country investigating 15 you? 16 MR. WEISER: Objection, speculation, Your Honor. 17 Q. Do you know - 18 THE COURT: Just a moment. Just a moment. The 19 objection is overruled. He just answered that. He said he 20 doesn't know if any country is investigating him. 21 MR. NUCCI: He said he knows none where there are 22 charges pending. And then I asked, Were there any 23 investigating you? 24 THE COURT: You can answer that question, Mr. Lopez. 25 A. Not that I know of.

24 Cross - Lopez-Castro 24 11:16 1 BY MR. NUCCI: 2 Q. You haven't been served with any legal process? 3 A. Through the last year and a half, I have avoided leaving 4 the United States. 5 Q. Have you been questioned by any representatives of any 6 foreign country regarding the events of March 2005? 7 A. No. 8 Q. In fact, it's public knowledge in Miami, is it not, in the 9 newspapers that printed it, that this Grand Jury investigation 10 is ongoing into how Posada came into the United States? 11 A. What is the question? 12 Q. Is it not a fact that it's public knowledge through the 13 newspapers in Miami that there is a Grand Jury in El Paso, at 14 which you have been subpoenaed, investigating this case? 15 A. Possibly. I don't know. 16 MR. NUCCI: May I approach, Your Honor? 17 THE COURT: Yes, sir. 18 Q. Hand you what is marked for identification as Government's 19 Exhibit 3. And I will just move this in, Your Honor, now. 20 It's a -- I have given these to defense counsel. I will hand 21 them up, Your Honor, 1, 2, 3 and 4, and just move those into 22 evidence. 23 THE COURT: Mr. Weiser, do you have any objection to 24 those four exhibits? 25 MR. WEISER: No, Your Honor. Nalene Benavides, RMR, err EI Paso, Texas 79901

25 Cross - Lopez-Castro 25 11:17 1 THE COURT: Exhibits 1, 2, 3, 4 are admitted. Let me 2 take a look at this. 3 MR. NUCCI: The first one, Your Honor, is 3. 4 THE COURT: Just a moment. 5 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is asking if this has to 6 do with him. 7 THE COURT: There are no questions. 8 (Consultation off the record.) 9 THE COURT: Back to you, Mr. Nucci. 10 MR. NUCCI: If I may approach, Your Honor? 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 MR. NUCCI: Sir, I am going to show you what is a 13 Miami Herald article dated July 13 of this year, and I direct 14 your attention to the two highlighted paragraphs and the 15 interpreter can read those to you. 16 THE INTERPRETER: Would you like me to read them in 17 English first and then in Spanish. 18 THE COURT: Yes, read them in English first. 19 THE INTERPRETER: "Jose 'Pepin' Pujol said he is one 20 of two other Miami exiles scheduled to appear on August before the same grand jury that jailed Abreu. Pujol, who 22 pleaded the Fifth Amendment in a previous hearing before the 23 same grand jury, said he is worried that he and Ruben Lopez 24 Castro may suffer the same fate as Abreu." 25 "'It makes me feel very bad and very impotent that a

26 Cross - Lopez-Castro 26 11:26 1 man who has always acted in the benefit of this country now 2 finds himself in this situation,' Pujol said about Abreu. 3 'What we want is to liberate Cuba so there won't be dead people 4 and disgrace. We've never made a bomb, or placed a bomb, or 5 been terrorists or brought anything illegal into this 6 country. I" 7 MR. NUCCI: Could you skip down to that next paragraph 8 and then go to the "Lopez Castro" line? 9 THE COURT: Which exhibit are you reading from? I'm 10 sorry. 11 MR. NUCCI: THE COURT: Exhibit MR. NUCCI: Yes, Your Honor. It's entitled, "Friend 14 refuses to say how Posada arrived in Miami." 15 THE INTERPRETER: Where says, "Lopez Castro 16 declined to comment"? 17 MR. NUCCI: That is correct. 18 THE INTERPRETER: At issue is whether - 19 MR. NUCCI: Let me make sure the judge is with us. 20 With us, Your Honor? 21 THE COURT: Which one was the first one, the one that 22 says, "Jose 'Pepin' Pujol said he is" - 23 MR. NUCCI: Right. 24 THE COURT: That was the rst paragraph. 25 MR. NUCCI: Read that paragraph and the next and then

27 Cross - z-castro 27 11:27 1 skipped down to "Lopez Castro declined to comment." And if you 2 could, ma'am, just read the rst sentence of article. 3 THE INTERPRETER: "At issue is" or "The U.S. 4 government has"? 5 MR. NUCCI: "The U.S. government." 6 THE INTERPRETER: "The U.S. government has arrested a 7 Miami friend of Cuban exile militant Luis Posada Carriles in 8 Texas as part of an ongoing grand jury probe into Posada's 9 illegal entry into the United States from Mexico." 10 MR. NUCCI: Okay. 11 THE INTERPRETER: next two paragraphs that were 12 highlighted. 13 BY MR. NUCCI: 14 Q. Sir, does that refresh your recollection that it's public 15 knowledge, at least through the newspapers in Miami, that you 16 are subpoenaed to the Grand Jury here in El Paso to testify 17 about Posada's entry into the country? 18 MR. WEISER: That really calls for speculation on his 19 part. He is asking him to comment on some newspaper art 20 that was written that indicates that he made no comment. 21 MR. NUCCI: Simply asks for his knowledge, Your Honor, 22 if he knows that this is a public matter. 23 COURT: Well, the issue here this is an on-l 24 article. Clearly, the Miami Herald has a very broad 25 circulation. But to the best of my knowledge, the paper

28 Cross - Lopez-Castro 28 11:29 1 edition has a broader rculation than the on-line edition You may rephrase the question and then just simply ask him, Doesn't this tell you that this is simply knowledge that you are here today? 5 THE WITNESS: Do I know that -- what is the question? 6 BY MR. NUCCI: Q. Have you read articles in the Miami Herald about this Grand Jury investigation? A. I read the Las Americas newspaper. Q. Well, have you read anything about this Grand Jury investigation in El Paso? A. Yes -- no. Q. In fact -- pardon? Q. Yes or no? A. Yes. THE INTERPRETER: Yes -- no Q. And, in fact, Mr. Lopez-Castro, you have been contacted by reporters, have you not, asking you questions about your appearance in EI Paso? A. And I told those reporters that I didn't want to say anything about this case. Q. So you have been contacted, have you not? A. A newspaper man from the Miami Herald called on the phone, Corrales. anymore. And I told him to please do not call my horne I have nothing to -- no statement to give to any

29 Cross - Lopez-Castro 29 11: newspaper. Q. And you know, do you not, that you have been reported in the papers as being on the Santrina when it went to Mexico in the middle of March 2005? A. I don't believe everything I read in the newspapers. THE COURT: Mr. Lopez, that wasn't the question. The 7 question was simply this: Did you know or have you seen in the 8 9 newspaper that the newspaper is saying -- the Miami Herald is saying that you were on the Santrina? 10 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, Your Honor, I didn't understand the question. Yes. Yes, of course, I read that in the newspapers. BY MR. NUCCI: Q. And you have read, have you not, that Fidel Castro has accused you and the other people on board the Santrina of having smuggled Posada into the United States on that vessel? A. Yes, I have read that in the newspapers. Q. And that dates back to April of 2005, does it not? 19 MR. WEISER: I am going to object to the form of the 20 question. 21 THE WITNESS: I don't understand what you are asking MR. WEISER: I believe it is confusing. The articles he has shown him are 2006 articles. Now he is asking him to jump back to two years earlier. 25 THE COURT: Sustained.

30 Cross - Lopez-Castro 30 11:33 1 MR. NUCCI: I am asking him, if he knows, when did 2 those allegations first surface? 3 THE COURT: No, no. Just a second, Mr. Nucci. It is 4 fair for the witness to assume that there is a certain time 5 line to your question. And by just going back and forth in 6 time, you are confusing him. So the objection is sustained. 7 BY MR. NUCCI: 8 Q. When did you hear the allegation - when did you first hear 9 the allegation in the press that the Santrina had been accused 10 of smuggling Posada into the United States? 11 A. I don't remember exactly. 12 Q. At least a year? 13 A. Yes, possibly. I don't know. 14 Q. And in that last year, have you ever been threatened that 15 if you testified as to that voyage, that you or your family 16 would be injured in any way? 17 A. No. 18 MR. NUCCI: That's all I have, Your Honor. 19 MR. WEISER: Nothing further, Your Honor. 20 THE COURT: Thank you. 21 Mr. Lopez, let me ask you a question. Am I correct to 22 understand that the fear of retribution and retaliation is 23 based on the totality of your involvement in the anti-castro 24 resistance movement, not only on the alleged involvement you 25 had in the Posada-Carriles situation?

31 Cross - Lopez-Castro 31 11:35 1 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor, absolutely. 2 THE COURT: Thank you, sir. You may go back to your 3 seat. 4 Mr. Weiser, do you have any additional evidence that 5 you wish to make part of the record on behalf of your client? 6 MR. WEISER: No, Your Honor, other than to formally 7 tender the medical exhibits, which I tendered to the Court. 8 THE COURT: Very well. And they are in evidence 9 without objection. 10 Mr. Fernandez, let me ask you to go next and then we 11 will have the government respond to both of them 12 MR. FERNANDEZ: May it please the Court. I believe 13 that Mr. Lopez-Castro - I'm sorry - doesn't appear to be 14 well. May we have a moment? 15 THE COURT: Let's take a short recess, say a 16 ten-minute recess. 17 (Recess) 18 (Jorge Dieppa, Spanish Interpreter, present to 19 interpret for Witnesses Lopez-Castro and Pujol.) 20 THE COURT: Mr. Fernandez. 21 MR. FERNANDEZ: Thank you, Your Honor. May I 22 approach? 23 THE COURT: Yes, sir. 24 MR. FERNANDEZ: Before I begin, or rather, as part of 25 my beginning, I would like to clear up three little mistakes Paso, Texas 79901

32 Cross - Lopez-Castro 32 11:51 1 that I made in my pleading. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 MR. FERNANDEZ: And I want to start with the last one 4 first. I think it is the most important. On page 12 of our 5 pleading, we had characterized our argument as saying that it 6 would be indecent for the Court to act in a way. And I want 7 Your Honor to know that we would like that stricken from the 8 record. 9 And I would like to point out that perhaps in a moment 10 of overzealousness this person here wrote the wrong attitude. 11 But as soon as my client had an opportunity to read it, he 12 asked me to please go ahead and take that away. And I believe 13 that Mr. Lopez-Castro told his attorney that also. 14 THE COURT: Very well. 15 MR. FERNANDEZ: Thank you, Your Honor. By way of 16 clarification - 17 THE COURT: Excuse me. The statement is stricken from 18 the pleading. 19 Go ahead, sir. Yes, sir. 20 MR. FERNANDEZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 21 Your Honor, by way of clari cation, on page 9 of our 22 pleading, there is an allegation as to a bottle of rum I'm 23 sorry - as to some cigars being sent to an official. It was 24 also the bottle of rum that had the poison. 25 THE COURT: Yes. I noticed that, because the chemical Nalene Benavides, RMR, err EI Paso, Texas 79901

33 33 11:52 1 analysis is the analysis of a liquid. Yes. 2 MR. FERNANDEZ: Correct. Lastly, Your Honor, although 3 Mr. Pujol would not have a quarrel with me, because I took away 4 ten years from him, on page II, I had his age at 67. And it is 5 really THE COURT: Correct. I noticed that, too. 7 MR. FERNANDEZ: Your Honor, I have an inquiry of the 8 Court before I put my client on. 9 THE COURT: Yes, sir. 10 MR. FERNANDEZ: Would the Court take judi al notice 11 of the documents that are not prepared by Mr. Pujol, but - 12 perhaps it is premature to get a ruling before I inquire. On 13 the exhibits that we have in our presentation, we have included 14 a series of documents that come - for instance, there is Fidel 15 Castro's speech. Would the Court take judicial notice of those 16 documents or do I have to inquire from my client as to the 17 existence of 18 THE COURT: Let me hear from you, Mr. Nucci. Any 19 objections to that? I am sure you are referring to the speech 20 found in the 21 MR. FERNANDEZ: Syrian. 22 THE COURT: In the Cuban Embassy in Syria website. 23 MR. FERNANDEZ: Correct. 24 THE COURT: Any objection to that, Mr. Nucci? 25 MR. NUCCI: What was the date of the speech,

34 Cross - Lopez-Castro 34 11:53 1 Your Honor? 2 THE COURT: March or April of this year I want to say, 3 but I am not positive. 4 MR. FERNANDEZ: April 17th. There is an April 17th, , and there is an April 24, Those are the ones that 6 I had added to the 7 THE COURT: Both dates are 2006 dates. 8 MR. FERNANDEZ: No. One is One is I am 9 referring to the 2006 date, I believe. 10 THE COURT: Any objection to that? 11 MR. NUCCI: No. 12 THE COURT: Very well. The Court will take judicial 13 notice of that speech. 14 MR. FERNANDEZ: Thank you, Your Honor. May I proceed 15 with my witness? 16 THE COURT: Yes, sir. 17 MR. FERNANDEZ: Mr. Pujol. 18 THE COURT: Mr. Pujol, raise your right hand, please. 19 JOSE PUJOL, SWORN 20 THE COURT: Please be seated and speak into the 21 microphone. 22 You may proceed, Mr. Fernandez. 23 MR. FERNANDEZ: Thank you, Your Honor

35 Direct - Pujol 35 11:54 1 DIRECT EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. FERNANDEZ: 3 Q. Good morning, Mr. Pujol. 4 A. Good morning. 5 Q. Could you please state your full name and age for the 6 record? 7 A. Jose H. Pujol. October 21, Q. What does the "H." stand for? What does the "H." stand 9 for? 10 A. (In English) For the saint patron of that day. 11 THE COURT: Mr. Pujol, you need to speak Spanish. 12 A. Oh, right. 13 Q. Mr. Pujol, I understand that you speak English, but please 14 let the translator translate so that we can record this 15 properly. 16 A. Right. 17 THE COURT: And tell me, what is the saint of the day 18 you were born? 19 THE WITNESS: Hilario. 20 Q. That is what the H. stands for? 21 A. Right. Catholic. 22 Q. Let me ask the questions and then you can answer, okay? 23 A. Fine. 24 MR. FERNANDEZ: Permission to approach the witness? 25 THE COURT: Yes, sir.

36 Direct - Pujol 36 11:56 1 Mr. Dieppa, if you would explain to the witness the 2 need for him to wait for your translation irrespective and 3 regardless of whether he understands the question in English or 4 not. 5 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honor. 6 MR. FERNANDEZ: May I proceed, Your Honor? 7 THE COURT: Yes, sir. 8 BY MR. FERNANDEZ: 9 Q. Mr. Pujol, I hereby show you what has been presented to the 10 Court as the Witness' Response to Government's Motion for Rule 11 to Show Cause. 12 A. Right. 13 Q. Have you had an opportunity to see this document? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. And you have had an opportunity to review the exhibits? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. Are these true, to the best your knowledge? 18 A. Yes. 19 MR. FERNANDEZ: I have no further questions at this 20 time. 21 THE COURT: Mr. Nucci. 22 MR. NUCCI: Thank you, Your Honor. 23 CROSS-EXAMINATION 24 BY MR. NUCCI: 25 Q. Good morning, Mr. Pujol. E1 Paso, Texas 79901

37 Cross - Pujol 37 11:59 1 A. Good morning, Mr. Nucci. 2 Q. Is it fair to say that like Mr. Lopez Castro, you consider 3 yourself a soldier in the war against Fidel Castro? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. And you have openly discussed with the Miami Herald and 6 other publications many infiltrations that you have made 7 against the Island of Cuba, correct? 8 A. Generally they know more than I do what I may have done. 9 Q. But you yourself have openly publicized to the newspapers 10 the fact that you have conducted many raids in infiltrating 11 Cuba by sea? 12 A. Many years ago. 13 MR. NUCCI: Well, if I may approach, Your Honor? 14 THE COURT: Yes, sir. 15 MR. NUCCI: I am going to hand the Court what is 16 Government's Exhibit 5. And I would move that into evidence at 17 this time, Your Honor. 18 THE COURT: Mr. Fernandez, is there any objection to 19 Government's 5? 20 MR. FERNANDEZ: No, Your Honor. 21 THE COURT: You may proceed, Mr. Nucci. 22 MR. NUCCI: If I may approach, Your Honor? 23 THE COURT: Yes, sir. 24 BY MR. NUCCI: 25 Q. If I could, sir, have you read into the record the first

38 Cross - Pujol 38 12:01 1 three paragraphs of Government's Exhibit 5 in English. 2 THE COURT: Just a moment now. We are going to 3 proceed with the witness in Spanish or English. 4 MR. NUCCI: Okay. I thought it was just for the 5 record we read it in English like we did the last one. 6 THE COURT: We will have the interpreter read it in 7 English for the record. 8 MR. NUCCI: Right. 9 THE COURT: And then the interpreter will make sure 10 that the witness understands the Spanish interpretation. 11 THE INTERPRETER: I will do a side translation of it. 12 MR. NUCCI: Thank you, Your Honor. 13 THE INTERPRETER: "The captain of the Santrina is now 14 in his '70s, but he has never given up the fight against Fidel 15 Castro. Jose Hilario 'Pepin' Pujol, who insists he was trained 16 by the CIA and conducted many raids, said he is an expert in 17 infiltrating Cuba by sea. He gave the following account of a trip he steered to Cuba on another boat." 19 BY MR. NUCCI: 20 Q. Sir, do you recall making those statements to the reporters 21 from the Miami Herald? 22 A. The first paragraph is correct. The second one contains 23 errors. 24 Q. Are you denying that you have made trips to Cuba in terms 25 of infiltrating the island? Paso, Texas 79901

39 Cross - Pujol 39 12:04 1 MR. FERNANDEZ: Objection, Your Honor. I am going to 2 state the same grounds there were presented by my fellow 3 counsel in the same type of question that was asked of 4 Mr. Lopez-Castro. 5 THE COURT: He is cross-examining the witness based on 6 a prior inconsistent statement, so really the question here 7 boils down at this point to, Did you make the statement at the 8 time, yes or no? Because that's the proper context of this. 9 So you need to rephrase the question, Mr. Nucci. 10 BY MR. NUCCI: 11 Q. You said that this statement is incorrect. Please tell us 12 what you said and why this is incorrect. 13 A. Because I never -- I have never said that I have been 14 trained by the CIA. That was something reported by Fidel 15 Castro. 16 Q. So we can agree that you did tell the paper that you were 17 an expert in infiltrating Cuba by sea and had done that on many 18 occasions? 19 A. They would deduce that response. 20 Q. But my question is, did you tell the newspaper, the 21 reporter that, in fact, you had conducted many raids on the 22 island of Cuba or words to that effect? 23 A. Carried out in the '60s. 24 Q. Well, did you tell the newspaper that you had another 25 infiltration in 1995 when you dropped off Santos Armando

40 Cross - Pujol 40 12:07 1 Martinez Rueda and a friend near Puerto Padre? 2 A. Fidel Castro is the one who supplied that information. 3 Q. No. Sir, my question is, did you tell the newspaper 4 that you gave an account of a 1995 trip that you made to Cuba? 5 I'm asking what did you tell the newspaper. 6 A. Constantly, newspapers, TV, radio, they come to my house to 7 interview me, to ask me questions, like when I was part of a 8 documentary concerning the myth of Che Guevara. 9 THE COURT: Mr. Pujol, let me simplify this. Did you 10 or did you not tell Mr. Oscar Corral that you were part of an 11 operation in which you dropped off Santos Armando Martinez 12 Rueda and a friend near Puerto Padre, yes or no? You told him 13 that, or no, you did not tell him that? 14 THE WITNESS: (In English) Yes. 15 (Through interpreter) I didn't know those individuals' 16 names. They knew them. 17 THE COURT: So sometime in 1995, you did take two men 18 near Puerto Padre in Cuba, yes or no? 19 THE WITNESS: I left them at the banks of the Bahamas. 20 MR. FERNANDEZ: Your Honor, if I may. 21 THE COURT: Yes, sir. 22 MR. FERNANDEZ: I have an expert here who is going to 23 testify - and I will proffer to the Court and make it part of 24 my exhibits - that any information that is innocently here 25 will subject Mr. Pujol to prosecution in other countries,

41 Cross - Pujol 41 12:10 1 specifically the questions that are being asked here that 2 really have nothing to do with the Grand Jury investigation 3 will expose him to prosecution with Cuba. And I could perhaps 4 put the expert on first if Your Honor would like. 5 THE COURT: That is not necessary, because simply - 6 the question is very tight. It is simply, Did you tell him 7 this, yes or no? And that's the end, and he said he did, but 8 he didn't quite say that he took him to Cuba, he took him to 9 the banks of the Bahamas, and that's that. 10 MR. FERNANDEZ: Okay. 11 THE COURT: Back to you, Mr. Nucci. 12 BY MR. NUCCI: 13 Q. Sir, in the third paragraph of that article, you are 14 reported as having said, "The men dropped off supplies in Cuba, 15 Pujol said, before he smuggled them back out." 16 Did you or did you not make that statement to the 17 reporter? 18 A. I don't recall. 19 Q. Did you state to the reporter, "'I delivered them and took 20 them out, to infiltrate, '" and then later adding, "Martinez 21 Rueda and the other man wanted 'to kill Fidel'''? 22 THE COURT: Just a moment. Is this Exhibit 23 Number 5 24 MR. NUCCI: It is. 25 THE COURT: part of the attachments that are

42 Cross - Pujol 42 12:12 1 contained in the witness response? 2 MR. FERNANDEZ: No, Your Honor. 3 THE COURT: Why are you going through with this? 4 MR. NUCCI: Well, because part of the witnesses' 5 response is that they fear retaliation and I am proving that 6 the facts of the retaliation as offered in the response, number 7 one, have nothing to do with the Grand Jury in El Paso. They 8 relate to their history of activities against Fidel Castro, 9 number one. And number two, their fear of retaliation can't be 10 genuine or really even subjectively held if they continue over 11 and over again to engage in acts that invite retaliation. 12 It's like at what point does someone - is someone 13 able to - entitled to their fear of retaliation when they 14 keep when they are involved in a history of armed incursions 15 or incursions into the island, and then when asked to testify 16 in front of a Grand Jury on an unrelated matter, they say, 17 Well, hold it, I am going to hide behind the fact that I have 18 engaged in this life, and therefore, I do have a fear now if I 19 testify in the Grand Jury. 20 THE COURT: I think the difference is and perhaps I - 21 I thought I brought this up earlier. And if I didn't, let me 22 clarify it now. The difference is that if there is testimony 23 from a court of law that somehow gets to the hands of the Cuban 24 government, that can make that can form part of an official 25 diplomatic request. That is the difference. Right now, all