Dietrich f!.?,: Pickett, Inc.

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1 ORIGINL CRIMINL DISTRICT COURT PRISH'OF ORLENS STTE OF LOUISIN STTE OF LOUISIN NO versus' 26(30) SECTION nc n CLY L. SHW EXCERPT OF PROCEEDINGS IN OPEN COURT on February 7, 69, BEFORE : HONORBLE EDWRD. HGGERTY, JR. JUDGE, SECTION C Dietrich f!.?,: Pickett, Inc. stew-tlvt 333 ST. CHRLES VENUE, SUITE NEW ORLENS, LOUISIN

2 'N 1E 'X VITNESS IiIREcT CROSS RE-'DIRECT RECROSS WILLIM DUNN, SR., 4 4 MRS. BOBBIE DEDON MRS. MXINE KEMP

3 . Pursuant to the adjournment of Thursday, February 6, 69, the Proceedings herein were resumed at :00 o'clock a.m. on Friday, February 7, 69, appearances being the same as heretofore noted in the record I have been requested by Mr. Dymond'of - the Defense not to bring the Jury down because he wished to make an oral motion. I will be glad to entertain you, Mr. Dymond. MR. DYMOND: If the Court please, at this time on behalf of the Defendant we move for permission to withdraw from the registry of the Court, or from evidence, if it is done after it is introduced in evidence, the document referred to by the State in its opening statement as the "VIP Book of Eastern irlines" for the purpose of having Mr. Gilbert Fortier, a

4 duly qualified handwriting expert, 3 2 make an examination. of the purported signature in that'book. 4 5; 6 Is there any objection? MR. LCOCK: YoUr Honor, the State has no objection 'MR. DYMOND: to that, with this one proviso, that a representative of the District ttorney's Office is present at the time that Mr. Fortier does examine this document. We have no objection at all to that, Judge..Very well. t the proper time I will so MR. DYnOND: order the document to be placed in a position where your expert can make an examination of it. That is all. Do you have any further motions? Bring the Jury, please.

5 (Whereupon, the Jury was recalled to the courtroom.) 4 re the State and the Defense ready to proceed? MR. DYMOND: We are ready, Judge. 9 Call your next witness. MR. SCIMBR: The State calls Mr. William Dunn....o0o... WILLIM DUNN, SR., a witness called by and on behalf of the State, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: DIRECT EXMINTION BY MR. SCIMBR: State your name to the Court, please. William Dunn, Sr. nd where do you live, Mr. Dunn? I live in Clinton. Clinton, Louisiana? Clinton, Louisiana. nd how long have you lived in Clinton,

6 Louisiana? Practically all my life. nd what is your occupation? Farming and construction work there. nd how long have you been farming and doing 5 7 construction work? Mostly all my life. -# 8 Were you doing this work in 63?. I was. In connection with this work did you have occasion to do any of this work in Clinton in the summer of '63? ' I was. - Did you have any purpose to go in to Clinton, Louisiana, in addition to your regular jobs, in the summer of 63? Yes, I did. What was that occasion? I was working with CORE in Clinton. The Congress of Racial Equality? The Congress of Racial Equality people. nd this was in the summer of 63? 63. In relationship with your dealings with CORE, what did this consist of?

7 n I beg your pardon? What were you doing for CORE in Clinton, Louisiana? Trying to help register people up., Was this the time when they had the registration 6 drive going on? That is.right, the registration drive was going on..did you get in to Clinton a lot? - U. I did. In the course of your activity with CORE in Clinton, Louisiana, I call your attention to late ugust or early September of 63,. and I ask you: Did you have occasion to see any strange cars in town at that time? -Yes, I did, I seen a black Cadillac parked in Clinton. Where was the black Cadillac? Right in front of the Registrar's Office. Can you remember about when this was? I was standing in front of the Registrar's Office door. bout When was this? bout when it was? Yes, when.

8 Oh, in 63, late ugust or early September How can you arrive at that time? I arrived because it was about a month and a half before you go to cane farming. bout a month and a half before you go into (F\ 7' 8 9 cane farming. nd when was the date ;ou wen t to cane farming? I didn't understand you. What date did you go on the cane farming?' Usually goes on the cane farming on the th of October. In other words, about a month or a month and a half before October, 63? Month and a half before October. bout how far from the Registrar's Office would you say the black Cadillac was parked? Maybe or 30 feet. Can you describe the black Cadillac? I can. Would you give us a description? It was a big black Cadillac, shiny looking. I saw mostly the front of it though. (Exhibiting photograph to witness) I show you a photograph which the State has marked "S-2" for purposes of identification, and

9 I ask you if you can identify the auto- 8 mobile in this photograph. This looks like the car.kight here. Just like the car parked in front of the Registrar's Office? Yes, sir. Was there any particular reason why you happened to notice this car? Yes, it was a strange car to me, I had never seen that car before there in town. Fact of the business, the car was there -- I thought it was the FBI. You thought the car was the FBI? I thought it was the FBI. Were there FBI agents in the area. at that time? I believe it was. Would it be fair to say that in the course of this registration drive -- MR. DYMOND: I object to leading the witness, Your Honor, "Would it be fair to say." Rephrase your question, if you will, Mr. Sciambra.

10 n BY MR. SCIMBR:. Were you paying attention to all strange cars in the area at the time? 9 I was, all the strange cars, I was paying close attention. Can you remember about what time of the day, you got there? I got there about 9:00 or 9:30. In the morning? 0 In the morning. Was the black Cadillac, there when you got there? No, it wasn't there when I'got there. Did you see the car pull up? No, I did not. What did you do when you got in Clinton that day? Iyent on and got in the registration line. Right in the Registration Office, you say? In the Registration Office, yes, near to the Registration Office, but I was in the line. Did you stay in the Registrar's Office? No, I didn't stay. -- all morning?

11 I 2 I didn't stay in there, I come down and talked with some of the CORE. workers I was 4 5 working with. Do you remember any of the CORE workers that you talked to when you came downstairs? Corrie Collins. 7 Corrie Collins was also working for CORE? 8 That is right. 9 Can you remember approximately where you were standing when you first noticed the black Cadillac? I was standing in front of the Registration Office, just on the outside. bout how far froth the car were you? Oh, about or 30 feet. Did you notice if there were any people in the car?. Yes, I did. How many? I knows one man was setting behind the wheel, and maybe be another one but I am not sure. ti In the front seat maybe another one? On the front seat. But you are not sure about the other one?

12 I am not sure about the other one. What made you notice the man behind the wheel? Because he was a stranger to me. How far away from the car were you when you noticed the man behind the wheel? bout or 30 feet. Can you approximate how long you had to look at him? Five or ten minutes. Can you describe the man behind the wheel? I. can. He was -- big shoulders, big man, and grey hair. Do you see that man in this courtroom today? I do. Would you point him out, please?. (Indicating) Right here. MR. SCIMBR: May we have the record reflect that the witness pointed to the Defendant before the bar, Clay Shaw? Let it be noted in the record. BY MR. SCIMBR: What was he doing in the - car? Just setting in the car.

13 I Did you notice anyone go up to the car? No, sir, I didn't. Were there many people in line waiting to It was. register? bout how many people would you say were in line? Oh, or 30. Did you notice any strangers in the registration line? I did, I noticed one young white boy in the registration line. (Exhibiting photograph to witness) I show you a picture that the State has marked "S-1" for purposes of identification, and I ask you if you recognize the individual in this picture? That is the boy's picture was standing in line. Do you know who this person is? I do. Who is it? Lee Oswald. Was there any particular reason why you happened to notice this boy? He was a stranger to me, I had never seen him

14 before Were there many white people in line? Just a few. How many would you say? Maybe four or five. Did you ever talk to Oswald? No, sir, I did not. bout how many times would you say you passed Oswald that day? Just a few times.. Was he in line every time you passed him? Every time I passed. Do you remember what time you got to talk to the Registrar that day? bout the middle of the day. nd how long did you talk to the Registrar? Just a short while. nd who is the Registrar, or who was the Registrar at that time? Palmer. Henry E. Palmer? Henry E. Palmer. Can you remember about what time you left the Registrar's Office?. I left there about 2:00 or 2:30.

15 1 Was Oswald in line when you left? He was - in line when I left. What did you do after you left the: Registrar's Office? I went on home, went to my farm. Did you ever see Oswald get out of that lire? No, sir, I.did not. Did you see Oswald's picture in the newspaper after the assassination of President Kennedy? I did. Did you recognize him? Sure did. Where did you recognize him from? I recognized him from seeing him in Clinton, my home town. Did you see Clay Shaw's picture in the paper after that? I did. Did you recognize him? I recognized him. Where did you recognize him from? Recognized him from seeing him in my home town setting in the black Cadillac. MR. SCIMBR:

16 n BY MR. DYMONo: Tender the witness, Your Honor. CROSS-EXMINTION How did you become a witness in this case, Mr. Dunn? The D'S Office. Did the D'.s Office get in touch with you, or -4 did you get in touch with them? I can't understand you. 3 Did the District ttorney's Office get in touch with you, or did you get in touch with someone in the D's Office? They gotten in touch with me. When? Oh, about a year ago. bout a year ago? That is right. Had you reported to anybody before the D's Office got in touch with you? No, sir, I didn't. In other words, you have no idea how the D's Office found out about what you know? Is that right? No, sir, I don't have any idea. They just came to you and you told your story?

17 n Is that correct? When they come to me a year ago, I explained to them what I had seen. bout how, long did you see that automobile parked there? I didn't understand you. bout how long did you see that Cadillac -* parked there? Oh, I didn't just pay attention to it at all times. You first saw it about :30, is that right? That is right, :30 or :00, right. When was the last time you saw it? When I left town., What time was that? 't 2:00 or 2:30. So you know that it was parked there from about :30 or :00 o'clock until about 2:00 or 2:30? Is that right? That is right. You say that this Defendant Clay Shaw was the man sitting behind that wheel? Is that Correct? That is right, that is right. Before your seeing him in Clinton at the time

18 of the voter registration drive, had you ever seen that man before? I can't ever remember, that I recall. Well, did he look familiar to you or not? Like he look now. Did he look familiar to you when you saw hip in ugust or September of --- Mr. Dymond, if you will permit an interruption, I think you might use another term instead of "familiar." BY MR. DYMOND: Do you know what the'word "familiar" means? No. Is Did he look like you had ever seen him before? 5 'No, I had never seen him before. 0 You had never seen him before? I.had never seen him. The next thing that you saw that looked like him was when his - picture was in the paper - after he was arrested in 67, is that right? z That is right, it was his picture. lmost four years later? Right? (The witness nodded affirmatively.)

19 )9 When was the first time that you ever saw him in person here in New Orleans? t the day the trial started. I guess you were brought into the courtroom by the District ttorney's Office to look at him? Is that right? Well, I come down here from the -D's Office to look at him and see if I recognized the same man as when I had seen in Clinton. Right. nd they brought you in and told you to look at him? I wanted to come in and look at him. I know you wanted to, but they asked you? MR. LCOCK: I think he answered the question, Your Honor. I think he has, too. BY MR. DYMOND: Did they or did they not ask you to come in and _look at him? I don't know. You don't know. Who pointed him out to you when you came into the courtroom? Nobody pointed him out to me.

20 Was he standing by himself or with other people? Setting down. He was sitting down? That is right. Was he sitting down in the defendant's chair there (indicating)? That is right. Now, you say that one of the big reasons for your identifying this defendant as the man that you saw in Clinton was his grey hair and another one was his shoulders. Is that right? Big shoulders, big man. Isn't it a fact that the man that you saw in Clinton had longer hair on the top of his head than this man does? (The witness shook his head negatively.) He didn't? No. re you sure about that? Do you mean to tell me you looked to see how long the hair was on the top of that man's head? Look, when the man was in town I noticed the man. Whenever I knows a man I don't

21 1 - hardly forget his face. I see. nd you say that he didn't have longer hair on top of his head than this man? He looked to me like he looks there. Just like he looks now, hair just the same length on top? Is that correct? Is that right? He looked to me just like he is looking now when I see him in town sitting behind the wheel. Dunn, isn't it a fact that the man that you saw in that automobile had a hat on? Didn't have no hat on'. nd you're positive of that? Is that right? Positive he didn't have no hat. If I told you that Corrie Collins said he had hat on and all he could see was his sideburns -- MR. SCIMBR: That is objectionable, Your Honor, because it is calling on this man to pass upon the credibility of another witness. Objection sustained.

22 (REPORTER'S NOTE: No bill reserved.) BY MR. DYMOND: nd you swear he didn't have a hat on? I say he didn't have a hat on, when I saw him sitting in the car he did not have a hat on. Have you ever been convicted of a crime? No, no, I never have been. r6 You never have. The man that you have identi-., fied as Lee Harvey Oswald, had you ever seen him before the day that you say you saw him in Clinton? I never had. Never had? When did you determine or find out or finally decide for yourself that the man that you had seen in Clinton was Lee Harvey Oswald? I.seed him in Clinton, but we started seeing him after the assassination of President Kennedy. When you saw his picture on television? Is that right? In the paper. In the paper? That is right.

23 Did you read in the paper about the preliminary hearing before a three-judge court that was held in this case? No, sir, I didn't. Didn't you read about Mr. Shaw going to court after he was arrested? I seen Eis picture after he was arrested; f recognized him being the man in Clinton..nd you say you remembered then that you 'had seen that man in Clinton with Lee Harvey Oswald? Is that right? I didn't say I seen him with anyone, I said he was sitting in the car. I mean in Clinton at the same time that Lee Harvey Oswald was there. Is that right? That is right, that is right, but, now, I didn't see anyone with him. There may have been another in the car, but I am not sure, but I know- he was in the car. You remembered that and you didn't report it to anybody, did you? No, sir, I didn't. Uhy didn't you? I thought he was FBI, that is why I didn't.

24 I am not talking about that, I am talking about after Mr. Shaw was arrested, you saw his picture in the paper and recognized from that-picture that he was the same man that yop saw in Clinton at the same time that Lee Harvey Oswald was there. Why, didn't you report that to anybody? Well, I thought it was FBI..You thought who was FBI? I thought Clay Shaw was FBI when he was sitting in Clinton in the black Cadillac. Look, I don't want to confuse you, Mr. Dunn, I am not talking about what you thought in Clinton back in ugust or September of 63, I am talking about what you saw in the newspaper back in 67 when Mr. Shaw was arrested and you say that from his newspaper picture you recognized him as the man that you saw in Clinton at the same time that Lee Harvey Oswald was there. Have I made myself clear on that? I understand it. Now, when you recognized him as the man that you had seen in Clinton when Lee Harvey_ Oswald was there,' you saw his picture in

25 the paper as having been arrested and charged with conspiring to kill President Kennedy, why didn't. you :report to somebody that you had seen him there when Lee Harvey Oswald was there? Well, I didn't think I had to report it, had FBI and things checking on different things like that. nd you didn't feel that you had any duty. When I seen his picture, he was arrested. I see. Now, what cause I have to do with it? 'You didn't think that you should report it? Is that right? He was arrested when I seen the picture, when I seen his picture there he was arrested already. I have cause to go and try to get him arrested again? (LUGHTER) THE BILIFF: Order in the court! BY MR. DYMOND: How was the man you have identified as Lee Harvey Oswald dressed? I can't understand you. You have identified this picture shown to you

26 by Mr. Sciambra as the man you saw stand- ing in the registration line. Is that right? That is right. How was that man dressed when you saw him? I didn't pay attention to his clothes and the side -- You didn't pay any attention to his clothes? Is that right? Not particular. Did he have a shirt on or not? I didn't pay attention to it. Is it your testimony you can't even tell me whether he had a.shirt on? I wouldn't say, but you know yourself the man wasn't standing in town naked. MR. LCOCK: Your Honor, I object. THE WITNESS: (Continuing) I say I didn't pay attention to his clothes, I paid attention to his face and. his size. BY MR. DYMOND: nd you can't tell me That color shirt he had 0 on?

27 I couldn't tell you. 26 You can't tell me what color pants he had on? No, I couldn't tell you that. Now, the man sitting in the automobile, what kind of clothing did he have on? He had on -- looked to me like a dark suit. dark suit? Yes, sir, far as I could see. I couldn't see but only his coat. Let me get clear'on.. that. Now would you tell us why you would notice the clothing on one man and wouldn't notice the clothing on the other? I thought it was the FBI, and that is the reason. What has being an FBI agent got to do with your remembering his clothing? Well, I didn't remember the clothing on Lee Harvey Oswald, I remember his face and his size. That is right. Did Lee Oswald have a beard or not? I didn't remember him having any beard. Would you say that he did? He didn't look to me like he had no beard. What is that?

28 0 He didn't look to me like he had no beard on. You know what a beard is when you see it, don't you? 27 (The witness nodded affirmatively.) Can't you tell me definitely whether you saw a beard on the man that you saw standing in'the registration line? No, I didn't see any beard. nswer it. Say whether you saw a beard or not a beard, don't say "I didn't see any beard." Did you see a beard or didn't you? THE WITNESS: is I didn't see a beard. BY MR. DYMOND: I understand you were standing right in front of the Registration Building? Is that right? Right. This line you were talking about, was that flj inside or outside the building? I don't understand. The line of people standing in the Registrar's Office, was that inside or outside the

29 building? Inside and outside. Inside and outside? Correct. Were there many people in town at that time? What you mean, was many people in line or in town? Were there many people in the Town of Clinton at that time? I didn't particularly pay attention to many people being in town. Well, were there many strangers there? I seen two, maybe three. What is that? I seen two, maybe three. Is that all the strangers that you saw that day? That is right. You knew everybody else, is that right, at least by sight? - I don't understand you. You knew everybody except those three men by sight? Is that right? Not particularly, but I had seen them before. ll right. You knew them by sight. Now, the

30 automobile, this black Cadillac that you 29 have referred to, was that parked on the same side of the street or the opposite side of the street from the Registrar's Office? Same side of the street. ' It was parked on the same side of the street that -- '-- the Registrar's Office was on. ll right. nd you say you were about to 30 feet from it? Is that correct? That is right. Now, as you walked out of the Registrar's Office, was this car on the right-hand side or to the left-hand side of the Registration Office, or was it directly in front of the office? It was right in front of the office or drugstore we have right there just or 30 feet, right close together, next door, right in front of it. Would that be a little'bit to the right or a little bit to the left as you are walking out of the front door? Now, the Registrar's Office -- you want me to --

31 I didn't hear you. 30 The Registrar's Office youwant- me to describe and give you the facts? s you are coming in Clinton on 67 You don't have to go into the highway. I have to tell you if you want me to tell you wh;.t side. Let me ask you this: You say there is a drugstore next door to the Registrarl s : Office? That is right. Now, is that -- when you are facing the street from the Registrar's Office, is that drugstore on the right-hand side or the left-hand side of the Registrar's Office? On the right-hand side of the Registrar's Office. On the right-hand side of the Registrar's Office? The drugstore? Yes. Is it to the right or the left? On the right as you are coming out from the Registration Office. That is what I want to know. That is right.

32 Now, was this car parked in the direction of the drugstore on that street, or was it parked in the opposite direction on that street? It was parked right in front of the Registration Office and the drugstore. Right in front of the Registration Office and the drugstore? -That is right. Then it must have been a little to the right of the Registration Office going out? Is that right? Mr. Dymond, is there a purpose behind this question? MR. DYMOND: Yes, of course there is. ll right. I know you are belaboring it. You may proceed. BY MR. DYMOND: Is that correct? It would be a little bit to the right of the Registration Office going out? Yes, a little to the right coming out from the

33 1 Registration Office s' 8 9 Now, which way was that car facing? Was it facing towards the left or to the right as you came out of the Registration Office? It was facing the Clinton' Bank. If you hade a picture of it you would know. Is that to the right or left of the Registration Office when you are coming out of the Registration Office? It was facing the Clinton Bank on the left-hand side, on the wrong side of the street. I am sorry. We don't know where the Clinton Bank is, but I ask you to picture yourself coming out of the Registrar's Office. The car is parked on the street in front of the Registrar's Office? That is right. I am asking you whether that car was parked in a direction heading toward your left or to your right? Oh, it was heading towards the left. Heading towards your left, and you said you had a good view of the man sitting in that

34 automobile? 33 That is correct. You could see his full grey hair? Is that right? That is right. nd there was another man sitting in that automobile? Maybe, I am not sure. Maybe? I am not sure. Well, you were looking at the automobile for ten minutes, weren't you? 'I paid attention direct to the driver. Didn't you testify that you were looking at that car with this man in it for about ten minutes? I say five or ten minutes. nd is it your testimony you say maybe somebody else was sitting in the car? May be is right. nd the driver didn't have a hat on? No, he did not. MR. DIIOND: That is all.

35 Do you have anything further, any further 34 MR. DYMOND: need of Mr. Dunn? 4 No. MR. SCIMBR: We have no further need of him. (WITNESS EXCUSED.) MRS. BOBBIE DEDON, a witness called by and on behalf of the State, having been first duly sworn, was examined and. testified as follows: BY MR. SCIMBR: DIRECT EXMINTION Please state your name for the record. Mrs. Bobbie Dedon. Mrs. Dedon, where do you live? Baton Rouge. nd how long have you lived in Baton Rouge? bout a year now. nd what is your occupation? Doctor's assistant. nd how long have you been a doctor's assistant? year and about four months.

36 Where were you employed in the summer of 63? 35 East Louisiana State Hospital. nd where is that? Jackson. nd in what capacity were you employed at the East Louisiana State'Hospital? t the clinic as a receptionist. In relationship to your duties as a receptionist, in regards to where the personnel office was,' did you ever have occasion to talk to anyone?... Yes. In that relationship I call your attention to late ugust or early September,63, and I ask you if anyone asked you for instructions -- Yes. -- how to get to the personnel office. Yes. (Exhibiting photograph to witness) I show you a picture that the State has marked "S-1" for purposes of identification, and I ask you if you have ever seen the person in this picture. Yes.

37 Where did you see this person? 36 t my desk at.the clinic. Can you approximately remember about what time it was? September, early part of September. Do you know who this person is? - It is Lee Harvey Oswald. Can you remember what you talked to Lee Harvey Oswald about? He wanted to know where he could go to put in an application. MR. DYMOND: Your Honor, we object - to any conversation. Objection sustained. BY Mil, SCIMDR: Just tell us what you told Oswald. I.just told him directions to go to the center building which is the administration building. What was in the administration building at the time? The main offices. Where would a person go to apply for a job?- t the administration building.

38 Can you remember about what time of day this 37 was? It was around lunch, because.was.getting ready to go to lunch. bout how long did you talk to Oswald in relationship to where the personnel office was? Just a few minutes. What did he do after you talked to him? Just left. Was that the last time you saw him that day? Yes, it was. Did you see a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald in the newspaper after the assassination of President Kennedy? Yes. Did you recognize him? is No I knew he looked familiar. 0 You didn't recognize him from any particular place though? No. Can you remember the first law" enforcement officer that you talked to in relation to this? Yes, Lieutenant Fruge.

39 1 Who was that? 38 Lieutenant Fruge. Louisiana State Police? Yes. Did he show you any photographs? Yes, he showed me a lot of photographs. Did you identify any photographs? I identified Lee Harvey Oswald. -You identified Lee Harvey Oswald's photograph? Yes. Did you recognize the photograph at that time? Yes. nd where did you recognize it from? From me talking to him. Were you ever questioned by the FBI in regards to this? No. MR. SCIMBR: I tender the witness. CROSS-EXMINTION BY MR. DYMOND: Mrs. Dedon, you said you have talked with Lee Harvey Oswald for only a few minutes at your desk? Yes.

40 1 How many minutes would you say that was? 39 CL 2 Long enough to give him directions to go 3 around the building and to the front. 4 Would you, say three or four minutes? 5 Four or five minutes. 6 7 I see. Do you recall how he was dressed that. day? 8 No, I don't. 9 Do you recall his general appearance, that is, whether he was neat looking or sloppy looking or generally how he looked? No. O Did he impress you as a neat individual or as a disheveled individual? 4 I didn't really -- I didn't pay that much attention to him. O Did he have a beard on? I don't remember. You don't remember whether he had a beard? Right. U. You don't? No. MR. DYMOND: That is all.

41 1 7 Do you have any further need Mrs. Dedon? MR. SCIMBR: No further questions, Your Honor. If not, you are excused from the subpoena. call your next witness. (WITNESS EXCUSED. 40 1,41,004, 00 MRS. MXINE KEMP, a witness called by and on behalf of the State, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: DIRECT EXMINTION BY MR. SCIMBR: -Please state your name for the record. Mrs. Maxine Kemp. Mrs. Kemp, where do you live? Clinton. Clinton, Louisiana? That is right. nd how long have you lived in. Clinton? ll my life. nd what is your occupation? I am classified as a typist-clerk, I am

42 classified under Civil Service as a 41 2 Typist-Clerk 3, and I act as secretary to the Personnel.Office at East Louisiana 4 5, State Hospital. In other words, you work in the office, personnel office, of East Louisiana State Hospital? That is right. -When did you go to work at the East Louisiana State Hospital? September of 64. In connection with your duties at the hospital in September of 64, I ask you if anything unusual happened to you? I came across an application for employment. In the personnel files? That is right. What was the name on this application? Harvey Oswald. Now, how was the application written, was it first name last or last name first? Last name first. nd then first name after the last name? That is right, then the middle name. MR. DYMOND:

43 Your Honor, we object to this, first on 42 the ground that this application itself weuld, if admissible, be the best evidence, but this young lady, as I understand, didn't go to work there until September of '64 and apparently she found an application like this at the hospital when she went there, and she can't sit Were now and testify as to the contents of this written application. Let me find out. Mr. Sciambra, do you have the exhibit itself? MR. SCIMBR: No, Your Honor, but I will clarify this with a few more questions, as to the existence of the application. If the evidence is available, the best evidence is the document itself. MR. SCIMBR: In a few more questions, Your Honor, that will be brought out.

44 ll right. 43 BY. MR. SCIMBR: So, in other words, the application read "Oswald" -- BY MR. SCIMBR: No, no, wait. The objection is well taken. You cannot pursue it. The best evidence is the document itself. What did you do with the application after you looked at it? Put it back in the file. When was the next time you went to look for the application? is fter the investigation started. fter the Garrison investigation started? Yes, sir. Was it there? No, sir. Do you know what happened to the application? No, sir, I do not. Do you know who took the application? No, sir. Have you made efforts to find the application? Yes, sir. ts

45 Have you been able to find the application? 44 No, sir. Now could you tell.me exactly how the name appears on the application? MR. DYMOND: Now, if Your Honor please, -- - I will overrule your objection now..mr. DYMOND: May I make the objection? I didn t state the reason yet. We object to this now, Your Honor, on the ground that this application, if it existed, that the testimony concerning this application is hearsay. The best party to testify as to anything concerning this application would be the person who made it out or saw it made out. - Not necessarily. MR. DYMOND: Well, that is our position, Your Honor, and our objection is based --

46 Let me ask you a question: re you 45 C) officially employed in connection with these records, as typist-clerk and secretary to the Personnel Director? THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. These records would have been under your direction? THE WITNESS: Yes, at all times. nd who would prepare this information? THE WITNESS: - The application? Yes. U THE WITNESS: The person seeking employment. Who was giving them the application to prepare, and whom would he give the application to? THE WITNESS:

47 He would give it to me or the lady 46 Would he have given it 'to you? 4 THE WITNESS: No, sir Who else would he have given it to besides you?. THE WITNESS: Well, there are three others that work in the office; he could give it to either one of them.. In the ordinary course of business it would be filed in the filing cabinet together with other records? THE WITNESS: Yes. Do you particularly remember seeing this card in the file? THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. I will permit her to testify to it.

48 overrule your objection. It is the 47 best evidence available. MR. DYMOND: To which ruling we object and reserve a bill of exception, making the State's question, our objection, the reasyns for the objection, the testimony of this witness, and the entire record, together with our contention that the Court led the witness in connection with questioning on this document, parts of the bill. Let me make one thing certain. Each time you take a bill you say "the entire record." "The entire record" means up to the time you make your exception, not the entire record? MR. DYMOND: Right. I want that understood. BY MR. SCIMBR: Would you state to the Court exactly how the name appeared on the application.

49 : "Oswald, Harvey." Did you see a middle name?. No, sir, I did not. MR. SCIMBR: Tender the witness, Your Honor. CROSS-EXMINTION BY MR. DYMOND: Mrs. Kemp, is it the practice of. East Louisiana State Hospital to keep applications for employment on file there, or do they just keep work records on file? We keep all applications for one year.. For one year?. Yes, sir. ll right. We pull them, well, maybe every three months we go through them. Every three months when you go through them, what do you do with them? 48 U Well, we destroy the Ones that are one year old? Is that correct? If they have not been accepted. foremployment. If they are accepted for employment, of course, it goes in your personnel file.' MR. DYMOND:

50 That is all, ma'am. 49 BY MR. SCIMBR: RE-DIRECT EXMINTION Do any applications happen to stay in the employment files more than a year? Yes, sir, they have. MR. SCIMBR: No further questions. Do you have any further need of the lady? MR. DYMOND: No. (WITNESS EXCUSED.),

51 CERTIFICTE 50 I, the undersigned, Helen R.Dietrich, do hereby certify: That the above and foregoing (49:pages of typewritten matter) is a true and correct transcription of the stenographic notes of the proceedings had herein, the same having been taken down by me and transcribed under my supervision, on the day and date hereinbefore noted, in the Criminal District Court for the Parish of Orleans, State of Louisiana, in the matter of State of Louisiana vs. Clay L. Shaw, (30) Section "C" on the 7th day of February, 69, befoxe the Honorable Edward. Haggerty, Jr., Judge, Section "C", the same being an excerpt of the proceedings as to certain witnesses contained in the index hereof. 69. New Orleans, Louisiana, this 26th day of May, HELEN R. DIETRICH REPORTER