(TRANSVAAL PROVINCIAL DIVISION) / S. COOPER AliD EIGI T OTHERS PAGES

Transcription

1 I:? THE SUPREME COURT OF SOUTH AFRICA (TRANSVAAL PROVINCIAL DIVISION) / CASE M O. : 1 8/7 5/25U DATE: 17th JUNE THE STATE VS S. COOPER AliD EIGI T OTHERS 1 VOLUME 11 b PAGES LUB3E RECORDINGS (PRETORIA)

2 f~) \ /VKD. _ 7090 " MABASA COURT RESUMES ON 17th JUNE 1976 LYBON MABASA, declares under oath: EXAMINATION BY MR. SOSG-OT: Mr. Mabasa, you were a student at Turfloop in 1974» is that correct? --- Yes. Would you tell His Lordship briefly some of your personal details, where were you born and when? --- I was born in Johannesburg, in Orlando West in 1952 on the 17th of June. And where did you matriculate? --- At Skane N'twane High School. 10 Where is that? --- In Soweto. COURT: Was your birthday yesterday? --- Today. Oh, many happy returns. MR. SPG-GrOT: Well I hope that today will be a memorable day for you for a number of reasons. Mr. Mabasa, after your matriculation what did you do, did you go and work or did you go to university? --- I worked for a year. I worked for a year? --- In the..inaudible..clothing industry. (WITNESS TOO NEAR MICROPHONE) In what capacity did you work - will you please speak up 20 - I think you must stand a little bit further away from the microphone and just speak up so that the accused and everyone can hear please? --- I worked as a clerk at the industrial council for the clothing industry. What sort of work did you do? --- I was filing. Then you went to what university? --- To the University of the North. What year would that be? --- It was in 1973» What course or degree did you enroll for? 13.A. And did you pass 1973? --- Yes. 30 Did you then go in to second year in 1974? --- Yes. And /...

3 KABASA And what happened at the end of 1974» did y o u pass that? --- Yes, I passed all the subjects save one, which was my major and as a result decided to do STD while continuing with my course. You decided to do STD? --- Secondary Teachers1 Diploma, in In other words and continue then in 1975 with the course that you had failed? --- Yes. Is that the position? In 1976, did you return to Turf l o o p? ---No. 3,0 What is the position, tell His Lordship what happened? --- Again this year I received a Letter from the university informing me that my appiication as a student for this year has been unsuccessful. No reasons were given in the letter, so I didn't go back to university this year. And did you then take up employment? --- Yes. And are you now employed as a teacher? --- Yes. In a high school, is that correct, in Soweto? --- Yes. Now, Mr. Mabasa, again some broad historicai facts, in 1973» who was the chairman of the S R C? ---It was Mr. Ilk w e, 20 Isaac Nkwe. Again, will you stand a littie bit away from the microphone please. And was Mr. Nkwe's SRC reign as it were eventually brought to an end? --- Yes, M'lord. When did that take place? --- There was an attempt to bring it to an end in That was an abortive attempt? --- Yes. Let us go into L974? --- In 1974 it was brought to an end, a motion - a petition moved by Peter G-alLens, seconded by a student known as Flint, was circulated amongst the students 30 and the majority of the students signed the petition. In the petition /...

4 MABASA petition the mover and the seconder pointed out the failings of the..(mr. Soggot intervenes) Yes, well we have had evidence on that, I would invite you not to deal with the details of those failings, that led to a mass meeting, I think that is common cause, and the SRC was eventually deposed. What I want to know from you is, from your understanding of what was going on in the campus at that time, did SASO have any hand in initiating the petition which eventually led to the deposition of the SRC? ---No, M'lord. 3.0 Now, a new SRC was then brought into operation, and again it is common cause, the chairman thereof was Nefolovhodwe, is that right? --- Yes, M'lord. Do you see him here? --- Yes, M'lord. Accused II0.6. Now you yourself were you a member of S A S O? ---No. You didn't have the system of automatic membership at Turfloop, again I think that is common cause? --- Yes, M'lord And-did you never enrol as a SASO member? --- No, M'lord. Now were you active in any other organism or movement 20 o n the capus? --- In 1974 I became chairman of the Student Christian Movement. Can you in one paragraph so to speak tell us what that movement is about? --- That movement is the movement which is promoting or bringing the Gospel to the students at university, high schools and secondary schools.... INAUDIBLE.. is what it is all about. Are you aware of the doctrine or set of views which come under the title of Black Theology? --- Yes, M'lord. Now you say you are not a member of SASO, did you in yc 1974 attend the off-campus meeting which brought SASO into existence /...

5 MABASA existence? --- No, M'lord. Did you attend the SASO compassion day, do you remember it? --- Yes, M'lord. You did attend that. Did you contribute to it in any w a y? ---No, M'lord. You simply attended as a student. Now, I want to direct your attention to the holding of the rally at Turfloop on the 25th September 1974» When did you first hear that there was going to be a rally? --- A week before the rally was held. 10 How did you come to hear that? --- It was announced by the president of the SRC, Mr. Sedibe, in a student meeting. Where was the student meeting held and can you remember what day it was? --- I cannot exactly remember what day it was, but I remember that it was held in the old rec. hall. The old rec. hall - is that recreation hall? --- Yes. Can you tell us briefly the terms of the announcement, what he told you about this intended rally. First of all did he say who was going to organise the rally? --- He told us that the SRC was going to organise the rally. 20 And what was the rally to be about? --- The rally was to celebrate with the people of Mozambique for their freedom. Anything else he told you about the rally? --- He stated that it was not going to be a demonstration, and he even made a reference to the student unrest in i that is the student unrest in ^ -^ of 1972, and said we are not going to behave immaturely. Immaturely? Yes. And did he say when this rally was going to take place? --- He told us that it was going to be on the 25th in the hall 50 at exactly 2 o'clock. _

6 7094 MABASA What was the response of the students to this? --- All the students who were in the hall were - they didn't show any opposition so I take it all of them were interested in the rally. Now, the next thing that I want to ask you about is the issue of blank sheets for the purpose of writing posters, did you write a poster, or did you get a blank sheet? --- No, M'lord, I didn't get anything. Did you attend the SRC office the day before the rally? --- Yes, M'lord. What was the purpose of your going to the SRC office? --- I was told by students that there was a placard on the SRC office door with the words "viva Frelimo". Now, I didn't want to ask you what you vrere told, my question was why did you go to the SRC office? --- I was going to see it. You went to see the placard? --- I went to see the placard. And did you in fact see the placard? --- Yes. Did you have any understanding as to why that placard was there? --- Yes, M'lord. MR. REES OBJECTS: I object, M'lord, as to what his understanding is, I think he must tell the Court what his sources are, as to what went on in his own mind is irrelevant. COURT: Well he didn't know. MR. SOG-G-OT: He didn't know. Now when did you first hear that the rally had been banned? --- The following day, the day of the rally, in the morning. In the morning? --- Yes. Now tell us what happened, what did you think and what were you told and by whom as to the legality of - or illegality of the proposed rally? --- On the day of the rally in the morning /...

7 HABASA morning I went to Hr. Cyril Ramaphosa's room, he was my friend, and he had a radio. Now tell us who is Cyril Ramaphosa? --- He was the local chairman of SASO, and at the same time he had been chairman of the SCM before me. Well he had a radio? --- And he told me that there was an announcement in the morning that all rallies organised by SASO and BPC in the main cities, Johannesburg, I think he mentioned Durban and Cape Town, have been banned. How, in the course of the morning, did any members of the SRC or Accused No.7, that is Mr. Sedibe, make any announcement as to the holding of the rally or anything about its legality? --- I cannot remember clearly, but this comes to my mind that I think they passed a newsletter to all the student body informing us that they have got legal advice that the SRC..(Hr. Rees intervenes) MR. REES OBJECTS: H lord, I must object again, if he is referring to a newsletter there is a suggestion that there is better evidence available. If there is, then that evidence must be produced. M R. SQG-GrQT: M'lord, I think my learned friend is thinking of contracts, but for the moment I don't propose to lead any evidence of a newsletter, in fact I was going to ask him did he see such a document. I must tell Your Lordship right now I have never heard of such a newsletter. COURT: Have you got a newsletter? HR. SOG-G-OT: No, M'lord, I have never heard of the existence of such a thing, and I was going to elucidate before my learned friend objected. Tell us, did you see any newsletter? --- No, I did not, but I got information that the SRC had got legal advice and they were told that..(hr. Rees intervenes)

8 - /uyb - I'IABASA HR. REES OBJECTS: I object again, H'lord, surely cuy learned friend knows that he can't lead hearsay evidence of this nature, this is of idle talk somewhere. MR. SOGGOT: M'lord, the question which I had asked the witness and which I hope he is answering is what did Ho.7 or any member of the SRC tell him. It may well be that if any other student told him, that this is also valid evidence. Can I just go back to my first question, Mr. Mabasa, did Sedibe, that is Accused No.7 or any other member of the SRC say something to you or in your presence as to the holding of the rally? --- No, M lord. COURT: Didn't anybody come to the dining-room - are you staying in the hostel? --- Yes, I stayed in the hostel. Well didn't anybody come to the dining-room and make an announcement? --- I cannot remember clearly, because that day I was preparing for a trip to Lesotho on that Friday for the SCM, so I might not have been in during that moment when somebody came to the dining-room. M R. SOGGOT: Your trip was destined to take place on Friday, is that what you are saying? --- Yes. Very well then, I am not pressing it further, you then got other reports from other students as to the legality of the rally, is that right? --- Yes, M'lord. Now so much for that particular event, on Wednesday morning, did you see posters? --- Yes, M'lord. Now I don't want you to deal with the details of the posters, because I will direct your attention to them separately and later in your evidence, where did you see posters? --- I saw posters behind the toilets which are behind the lecture halls, the lecture halls A, B, C, I), E, and I saw other posters in what we students refer to as K squaxe, that /...

9 MABASA that is a square between K block, that is a lecture hall, ajnd J block and B block. Is this really if I may sum up in the 'Lecture theatre complex, lecture halls complex? --- Yes. Did you at any stage during the day go around the campus looking at other p o s t e r s?---no, M 1lord. And at a rough estimate, how many posters would you say you saw altogether? --- There might have been somewhere between 70 and 80. And when you were looking at the posters were you looking 10 at them alone or what, or were there other people around? --- There were always students around looking at them. Now, what I want to ask you, as far as you could observe, did the posters in any way affect the mood of the students or atmosphere of the campus that morning? - No, M'lord. Nov/ can you, still dealing with the chronology, tell His Lordship about the rally itself, and perhaps I can direct your attention to the events in the cinema hall. Were you in the cinema hall? --- Yes. Now can you briefly but perhaps giving us the essentials 20 of the picture, tell us what went on in the cinema hall? How many students there were, the atmosphere, what was said? --- When I went into the hall, the hall was not yet full, there were some few seats left unoccupied, and as I went inside I found a seat directly opposite the table and the chairs which were used by the SRC some few rows away, and I sat there. Moments later the members of the SRC came into the hall, and by this time then the hall was full, other people were without seats, and they were standing. And at that moment we started singing what we call the ' anthem.30 After singing, Mr. Sedibe..(Mr. Soggot intervenes) If /...

10 MABASA If I may interrupt, what is the mood of that anthem? --- The mood of the anthem, we are singing about the lost heritage of Black people in South Africa. Yes, well without going into the words, my learned friend can perhaps ask you about that, can you just tell u.s what the mood is, is it sung like a war cry or a jolly song or what? --- It is not a war cry, one can say it is just a memorial rather than a war cry. Now the anthem was sung, and then what happened? --- And then after that the president of the SRC, Mr. Sedibe, made 10 some opening remarks which I cannot remember clearly at this moment, and thereafter he said he was going to say "Machel" and we will respond as a student body and say "Viva Frelimo", and that was repeated thrice, he said Machel thrice and we, the student body, repeated thrice "Viva Frelimo11, and immediately after that he told us that the rally was going to be informal in nature, and he is going to ask speakers from the floor to address the students. Thereafter Mr. Phandelani Nefolovhodwe stood up and told us that he is going to address us but not as the president of SASO, just as a member of the 20 student body, and he said something about what the freedom of the people of Mozambique meant to us as Black people. I cannot remember the exact words he used, and immediately after his speech we sang..(mr. Rees intervenes) HR. REES: The witness is going a little bit too fast, II1lord, I c a n t take down what he is saying. HR. SOGGOT: Carry on? --- Immediately after his speech we sang the very same anthem, and thereafter a senior student.. (Hr. Soggot intervenes) When you say the very same anthem do you mean the 50 anthem? Yes, and then a senior student ITcebi Ntshona stood up to /...

11 HABA3A to say something, but then at that moment a hush-hush noise in the hall started to come out and there was a little bit of restlessness in the hall, and as I looked towards the door opposite which the toilets which are adjoining the SRC chambers, I saw that all the windows were opened, and there were policemen peeping, and at the door there was actually a policeman with a loudspeaker in his hand. And at that moment the students started singing again, and the loudspeaker too was whistling and crackling one could not..(hr* Soggot intervenes) The loudspeaker was whistling and crackling you say? --- Yes, and he appeared to be saying something, but I didn't hear what he said and I didn't hear what I-liss Ntshona said too. And at that moment a student, Jimmy Matsapola, climbed on a chair and clapped his hands, and as he clapped his hands the noise..(mr. Rees intervenes) MR. REES: M'lord, may this witness be asked to speak a little bit more slowly? COURT: Will you speak a bit slower. --- And then he clapped his hands, as he clapped his hands the noise was hushed for a moment. MR. SOGGOT: This was Mr. Matsapola? --- Yes. Was he standing on the floor? --- He was standing on a chair, just next to the police, and then he said: give him a hearing please, he might be bringing freedom, and of course the whole student body burst and laughed because we took it as a joke. And thereafter members of the SRC led by Mr. Sedibe, some climbed on the table, and some on the chairs, and silenced the student body and of course they were able to control us, they told us to move into the sports field, that is the football ground, and told us that from there we are

12 going to disperse peacefully. Can you remember which members of the 3RC made that announcement? - It was Mr. Sedibe the president, Mr. Pesi Mangwathe and the others..(mr. Soggot intervenes) I am talking about the ones who actually made the announcement? --- The president was one of them. Yes, and who else? --- And Pesi Mangwathe was his vice. Yes, carry on? --- And then we peacefully filed out of the hall, and moved into the sports field where we all assembled, as we assembled there the police positioned themselves on the southern part of the grounds, that is on the terrace, and also on the eastern part of the grounds, that is the fountain arc, and at that moment we sang the national anthem, gave the salute, and parted into two groups, women moving towards their residence, but when the women were moving to their residence, there were also a few..(court intervenes) COURT: Not so fast. MR. SOGrG-QT: Try and go a little bit more slowly, Mr. Mabasa? --- And there were some male students who moved with the women towards their women's residence, but the majority of the students, that is the male students, moved towards their residence, and there were a few students then who moved in the direction of the post office, that is westwards, and I was amongst those students who moved in the direction of the post office. And at that moment..(mr. Soggot intervenes) Can you just pause there a moment - all right, carry on? --- And at that moment the students who were dispersing, a lot of the male students were already over the street, that is the street separating the football ground and the male residence..(mr. Soggot intervenes) May /...

13 7101 MABASA May I interrupt you, you said the women started going in one direction, is that right? --- Yes. In what direction did the men go? --- They went towards the south, that is where the men's residences are. And at that stage what were the police doing? --- Until most of the students were across the street and there were only a few students who were actually on the sports field, and these were the members of the SRC, who were busy dispersing the students - at that moment the police batoncharged and unleashed their dogs. That is moving over the centre of the ground towards the football posts, chasing the students across the street almost into their residences. How far from the terrace as you call it, did the police commence as you put it chasing the students? --- They came from as far as the centre of the football ground, that can be estimated round about 50 yards. Yes, and then? --- And when the students started running there was one crippled student, Ishmail Makabela, even before he could climb into the terrace, one policeman hit him on the head with a baton, and he fell down, and dogs were led to bite the students, and of course at that moment as this was happening, students started - some students were actually angry because they didn't understand why even a cripple can be baton-charged when he cannot run. And at that moment some few students threw some few stones at the police, because there weren't a lot of stones in that area, but again a member of the SRC came to the rescue and stopped the students from throwing stones. The police went further on and..(mr. Soggot intervenes) Now, actually you are going rather fast, perhaps too fast for me. Could you - PAUSE - Court /...

14 HABASA COURT: Well did you see No.7? --- Pardon? When they threw the stones did you see No. 7 - well Sedibe? --- Sedibe only came after some students had thrown stones to stop them. He was in the football grounds when the police started charging, dispersing and separating the male students from the female students. How do you know that? --- Because I ran towards the direction of the post office, but before I reached the tennis courts I realised that the police were not actually pursuing the people who were running in that direction, they 10 were concentrating much upon the people who were moving in the direction of the male residences, so I stopped and watched just like the girls were doing. And what did you see? --- At that moment when I stopped and watched, it is when I saw him hitting Islimail Makabela, and some dogs biting some students. But I am asking about Sedibe? --- I said I saw Mr. Sedibe in the grounds before they charged us, and immediately after the stones were thrown Mr. Sedibe moved in the direction of the students raising his hands to stop them from throwing stones.2' Did you see that? --- Yes. Are you sure? --- Very sure. MR. SOG-G-OT: I want to show you a photograph, RALLY B.54» now would you first and foremost point out where you were standing at the stage when the police started to chase? --- When the police started to chase..(mr. Soggot intervenes) Just hang on a moment, let us just get the photographs out - PAUSE - have you got my question? --- Yes. Where were you standing at the stage when the police started the chase? --- When the police started the chase I 50 was just - you see the first - the penalty area of the /...

15 MABASA the football ground? May I make a suggestion, with His Lordship s permission, would you put a dot there with the letter M next to it standing for Mabasa - PAUSE - Now this M is on the soccer field, and it seems to be more or less in the middle is it? --- The penalty area. HR. REES: The penalty area is clearly definable. HR. SQG-G-OT: Well I d o n t know what a penalty area is. /ill right, now from that position, where did you go to? --- When the police baton-charged I ran towards the two shelters, 1.0 that is where people sit when they are watching tennis being played. Now where is that, can one see it on the photograph? Well can you just tell us where it is on the photograph? --- In the photograph it is in the western side of the football ground. Are you referring to those two little huts there? --- Yes. And there seems to be a car betxveen the two of them? ---Yes.' Is that what you refer to as the shelters? --- Yes. 20 Now where were you standing in relation to that? --- Just before them. And then what h a p p e n e d?---as I was running I kept on looking back to see whether the police were pursuing us or not, and realising that they were not coming much towards our direction, I stopped just like the women, who were not batoncharged by the police, were stopping, and watched what was happening. Now at the stage when you were at those shelters, how far had the police advanced? --- Some police had already yc climbed the terrace and very few of them had already crossed /...

16 HABASA crossed the street. Now, what I want to ask you is this, at the stage that you were at M or at any moment before then, did you see stones being thrown? --- No, H'l o r d. Now what do you say, had stones been thrown? --- I d i d n t see any stones. And at that stage in what direction were you looking when you were at M? --- When I was at M I was moving almost in the same direction as other students towards our residences, but when I saw the police charging we sort of 10 crowded the view of us who were there so I started to change my direction and run towards the shelters. Now while you were at M what view did you have of the embankment? --- When I was at M I was looking towards the residences and - PAUSE By embankment I mean terraces, I don't want to confuse you? --- I was looking, my arc of vision, I was looking much on the side of the hostels, and hostel MD which I can say is in the east from the position where I was. Now at that stage were any students gathered or collected 20 on the terraces? --- The students were not gathered on the terraces, those who were on the terraces were moving towards the hostels. A few students were standing across the street, that is where a few students were gathered. Now I took you out of your - I think you referred to Makabela, is that right? --- Ishmail Kakabela. He is a cripple? --- Yes. Now what happened to him? HR. B h!f,s: We have had that already, I-I lord, he said the person was hit and struck, now we have got to go over it again. 50 COURT: He says what happened to him after he was struck? After /...

17 KABASA --- After he was struck there were a lot of police and he remained down, I thought he was unconscious. HR. SQGrG-OT: Now, did the police use d o g s? --- Yes, they had dogs. Did you see the dogs bite anybody? --- Yes one student I saw the dog bite him from Rustenburg, but I don't remember his name. And where did this biting take place? --- On the terraces as he was running. Now, I think would you tell us then from that point, you say the students ran and the police went after them, what then happened? --- When the students saw the dog biting - the dogs being let loose on the students and..(ilr. Soggot intervenes) When you say let loose, what do you mean by that? --- That they were holding a long lead, and at the same time collaring the dogs, the would leave the collar and let the dog run towards a person, and then they would pull it back. So that is what I mean when I saw it was let loose and grabbed again. So you are not suggesting that the dog was unleashed at any stage? --- No, not completely unleashed. Now when this happened, yes, what happened thereafter? --- When students saw this, some students got angry, some were upset, and a few students then started throwing some stones at the police. Now where students at that stage and where were the p o l i c e? ---Most students were behind hostels HIT. Now I wonder, I don't think we have had HIT pointed out to us, can you have a look at that RALLY B.54, and put the letters Mil on the relevant hostel if it is t h e r e? --- PAUSE

18 COURT: Do you follow the photograph? --- Yes, it is a little bit obscured. I-IR. SOGGOT: Is it off the photograph?---pause ---Yes. Are you able to interpret this photograph properly? COURT: What is the building on the extreme left? --- This is MD. And then the next single-storey one? --- That is HF. Isn't that MD? --- Yes, this is KD, and then that is HP the bigger one, and then it is HO. Which bigger one is HP, the one nearest to the road? --- Yes, the one nearer to the road but it seems to be a d o ub 1 e- s t o r ey. Well that is H P? ---No, this is HP. And then the one to the extreme left, oh two I see there part of one and - PAUSE --- The one which looks like HP is HO And the other one? HR. SOGG-OT: We are a little in the dark at the Ear as to what he is referring to. COURT: Well I have marked mine.(discussion AWAY FROH MICROPHONE) HR. SOGGOT: Thank you, M'lord. COURT: And then the part that is sticking out, the one that is next to M O? --- That is the MIT, the big one which is a double-storey too. H R. SOGGOT: Is that the one, M'lord, just before HO on the extreme left hand side of the margin? --- Mmmm COURT: It is partly shown on the extreme left? --- Yes. HR. SOGGOT: Now what did you say was happening at HP please --- I said many students were almost behind that building and of course there were also a few students behind hostel IID Well /...

19 KABA3A Well hold on a moment, when you say - leave out the word behind please - you have your compass points it seems correct, you know where west and north are, is that right? ---Mmmm Now where were the students in relation to HI; in terms of compass points? In other words were they to the east or the west or the north or the south? --- They were to the north of MN. COURT: Is that on the sports field side of HIT or on the lea side? --- They were facing the sports field. 10 H R. SOGGOT: All right, carry o n? ---And there were some few students behind hostel HD. Again when you use the word behind can you give us please..(witness intervenes) --- That is to the north of HD. Good, now tell us what was happening, what these students did and said? --- When the students started tin-owing stones I saw Hr. Sedibe look in that direction and raise his hands and I took it that he was telling them to stop throwing stones. Now where were you at that s t a g e? ---I was still standing 20 there watching. At the shelters? --- Yes, to the east of the shelters. But were you off the sports ground? --- Yes, I was off the sports ground. All right, carry on, you say you saw No.7? --- And when the students ceased throwing stones a student, Frank Chikane, moved towards Ishmail Makabela, and I saw him touching Ishmail Makabela, and he helped Ishmail Makabela and he stood up. So I saw that Ishmail Makabela was not so hurt maybe. Yes, and t h e n? --- And then at that moment some students jc were already arrested by the police, and I saw the police moving /...

20 \ V IIABASA moving with the students to their police vans, and again students started whistling as if to oppose what the police have done. Now where were the police vans at this stage? --- The police vans were at a point here on my map marked E and N-2. And you say these students were being taken to the police vans? --- Yes. Were they put in, or did y o u see what happened then? --- I didn't see exactly what happened there, because people started crowding there.. 10 Yes, and from that point? --- Prom that point I too moved towards the direction of the police vans, and at that moment I found that several members of the SRC were alreadj?- there, and students were busy shouting: release our friends. Now at this stage where were the students? --- The students had now congregated on the eastern side of LIB, on the northern side I mean. On the northern side, just be careful of your compass points, otherwise it can be confusing. They were on the northern side of KB., how many students would you say were 2C there at that stage? --- I would say the majority of the male students. How many would that be in your e s t i m a t e?---round about a thousand. COURT: As many as all that, a thousand male students:* ---Yes. How many students are there at Turfloop? --- In that year we had And how many female students did you have? --- Female students, there wore about 400. So I mean every single student was there? --- That is why > I said the majority in the beginning. im d j...

21 And you said you estimate about a thousand? --- About a thousand, yes. HR. SOG-G-OT: He said the majority of male students. COURT: Yes but he said there are students in the entire university, 400 being women and male, and he saw about male students there, so it must be all the male students. HR. REES: I understood him to say there were about males, perhaps the matter could be clarified through him? --- No, about males. What I am saying is about a thousand, there might have been 800..(Court intervenes) COURT: You are saying approximately. HR. SOG-GOT: Now you also made mention of the SRC people, what were they doing? --- And then the SRC people came and told us to keep off the road while they go and negotiate with the police, and then I saw the Rector and the Registrar too coming there, and Hr. Nkondo and Hr. Iiatiwa also came to the spot and there were some negotiations. You. didn't hear what the discussion was a b o u t? ---No. And then what was the next thing that you s a w? ---The students were released. And? --- And after the students were released, the police remained on campus just for a few minutes and left the campus. They left the campus? --- Yes. Now what did the students then do, did they then disperse and go to their hostels? --- Well most students were moving in the direction of their hostels, of course there were those few who were just sitting there or playing soccer and so on. Now we know that later in the afternoon certain Vihite lecturers were assaulted, do you have any direct knowledge of that, I am not interested in wliat you h e a r d? ---I don't

22 have any direct knowledge of that, because then we had gone xo town to hire a lionbi. COURT: And then you were busy with your plans to go to Lesotho? --- Yes, M'lord. And when I cane back in the evening I found out there were some police again with some dogs standing there, and students informed me that there had been..(mr. Soggot intervenes) MR. SCGG-OT: Well you were given a report, I don't think that that carries the matter any further. IJow, I wonder whether this might not be an appropriate moment to refer you 10 to the placards. I don't propose to take you through all of them, M'lord, if we may begin at the beginning with RALLY B.6 please, have you got that - I think it reads: "Mozambique is free - Azania?". Did you see that? --- Yes, I saw that. Was this paint which was put onto brick? --- It was white paint. Where did you see it? --- I saw it on the western side of the administration offices. And just to as it were appreciate your reponses, what 20 did you interpret it to mean? --- I interpreted it to mean that Mozambique is free, and when will South Africa be free too. COURT: Just the last part, and you wonder - what did you say? --- When will the Blacks in South Africa be free. MR. S0G-G0T: RALLY B.10 - "White man it is time to proceed to India as you promised so get going". Did you see this? --- Yes I saw it. Where? --- I cannot remember exactly where but I knar the words, and that I read such a placard. And what was your response to i t? ---My response to it, y (. I felt it was childish. I mean it is just like a small child wi+o J...

23 HABASA who has heard, a history lesson about the White people going to India for spices, and after that he wanted to use it, so he just had a paper and wrote "White man proceed to India". Now -when you saw that were you a l o n e? ---No, I was not a.lone. Who else were there? --- I cannot say exactly the people who were there, but around each and every placard there were a lot of people that day. Well, Black students, is that what you are saying? --- Yes, Black students. And what were they saying or expressing, if anything, in relation to that poster? --- They were amused too, and some of them said people are trying to cast impressions. COURT: Cast? --- Impressions, they just want to hear people talking about such placards that he knows that I am great. HR. SOGGOT: So that he knows that he is great? --- That he is great. COURT: You mean people wanted to attract attention to themselves? --- Yes, they wanted to attract attention to himself, although they may not know exactly who he is, but if he sees that they are talking about White man to procecd to India, it will give him some kick where he is. HR. SOGGOT: The next is: "Who next if not Vorster", did you see that - I am sorry B.ll? --- Yes. Can you r emember where you saw that? --- I think it was behind the toilets. And how did you interpret that? --- Well, I interpreted it to mean that which place will get its freedom, if not South Africa, that is if not apartheid to end. COURT: ITow why do you put that construction on it? Because /...

24 I'lABASA --- Because "Vorster" refers to the Prine Minister, and when I look at the Prime Minister I refer to him - I see him in terms of South Africa, I d o n t see him as an individual, I always, when I see him I always think of the entire South Africa. Perhaps I missed what you said, what did you say? --- I said "who next?"..(court intervenes) Yes, who next with a question mark, if not Vorster? --- And the undertones behind who next is first Mozambique is free, that is how I understand it, then it will be who 10 next if not South Africa. HR. SOGGOT: Now RALLY B.12 please, did you see t h a t? --- Yes. Where did you see that? --- Behind the toilets too. Behind the toilets? --- Yes. And what - how do you understand that and what was your response? --- I understand it to mean that South Africa will ultimately, the whole of Africa will ultimately be ruled by Blacks, but the attitude of the students, it seems this was a most popular placard, people were attracted by the art rather than the message, everybody was saying: that is a beautiful 20 placard. And what was their mood when they saw that placard? --- They were happy, they were commenting about the art, that the person who did it must be a good artist. How you say they were happy? --- They were in a jolly mood. COURT: You say they were impressed by the technique of the p o s t e r? ---Yes, the art. HR. SOGGOT: ITow here is one which I want you to pause and consider, that is B.13: "Frelimo made them run - Frelisa will drown them - cowards run", did you see that? --- Yes I saw it. JO Where? --- It was behind the toilets too. I /...

25 MABASA --- Because "Vorster" refers to the Prime Minister, and when I look at the Prime Minister I refer to him - I see him in terms of South Africa, I d o n t see him as an individual, I always, when I see him I always think of the entire South Africa. Perhaps I missed what you said, what did you say? --- I said "who next?"..(court intervenes) Yes, who next with a question mark, if not Vorster? --- And the undertones behind who next is first Mozambique is free, that is how I understand it, then it will be who 10 next if not South Africa. HR. SOGGOT: How RALLY B.12 please, did you see that? --- Yes. Where did you see that? --- Behind the toilets too. Behind the toilets? --- Yes. And what - how do you understand that and uhat was your response? --- I understand it to mean that South Africa will ultimately, the whole of Africa will ultimately be ruled by Blacks, but the attitude of the students, it seems this was a most popular placard, people were attracted by the art rather than the message, everybody was saying: that is a beautiful 20 placard. And what was their mood when they saw that placard? --- They were happy, they were commenting about the art, that the person who did it must be a good artist. Now you say they were h a p p y? --- They were in a jolly mood. COURT: You say they were impressed by the technique of the poster? --- Yes, the art. HR. SOG-G-OT: Now here is one which I want you to pause and consider, that is B.13: "Frelimo made them run - Frelisa i.djjl drown them - cowards run", did you see t h a t? ---Yes I saw it. ;70 Where? --- It was behind the toilets too. I /...

26 I just want to ask you this, when you say behind the toilets - PAUSE --- I explained in the beginning that I mean the toilets behind - in the western side of the lecture halls. How at night time are there people moving around and about in the vicinity behind the toilets? --- There are seldom more people at night time. Now you say you saw this, what did you understand this to suggest and what was your response? --- Ily first impression was that the man who wrote it was not well informed because what I raad in the newspapers, nowhere is it referred that Frelimo chased people away, people who left Mozambique left Mozambique of their own accord, and at the same time I felt that he was speaking of things which did not exist in South Africa, like "Prelisa will drown the Whites", so I felt that it was just one irresponsible person who again was trying to be a shocker or sensational. What was the response if any of other students who saw this? --- Most students just gave it a glance and left, they didn't consider it to be that serious. RALLY p l e a s e? ---This I did not see. Will you tell Kis Lordship what your response is to this? There is a boot for example over a head? "Stamp out tyranny and so on, and "Black must rule"? COURT: Well I think you must treat the whole thing first, Hr. Soggot, and let him give a general impression. Had you seen this thing before? --- This one I did not see. I-IR. SOGGOT: Have a good look at i t? ---PAUSE COURT: Can you read it, is it sufficiently distinct for you to read? --- Yes, I can see. (PAUSE) HR. SOGGOT: Yes, will you carry on if you have read it?

27 '11* _ MABASA I think the words which are making an impression to me right now are the words, the small letters "The hottest place in hell is the result for those who retain a state of neutrality during a moral crisis". It gives me the impression that the boot "Black rule" and the man down there represents apartheid, so it is apartheid being stamped out because it is ungodly from what I get, or it doesn t go with the teaching of the Scriptures, so that is why he says: the hottest place is in hell and is the result for those who retain a state of neutrality during a moral crisis". And then he speaks about stamping out tyranny, ajxl of course Blacks would say that the laws which they do not partalee in making, and which affect them so much sometimes are tyrannical, they have tyranny in then, and "..INAUDIBLE.. rapists", the word rapist here in the context I think it will mean people who use force, people who do not care what happens, outraging somebody s way of life, moral, spiritual values, and physical values. A l l right, look at RALLY B.15, did you see that? --- Yes. What does it suggest to you "Down with the Pretoria. regime"? --- Well I think this has to do with elections when parties are..inaudible., that they be elected into office, and the one would say "down with the other", and so this would say "down with apartheid" as far as I understand it. RALLY B.16 "South Africa stinks", did you see that? --- Well, this then I would understand in my context as a Black man, I would understand the slums in which I live dirt, where there is so much filth,/and so in that context I would say South Africa stinks. When I come to the policy, I would say a Black man who is under apartheid would feel again that the policy of apartheid stinks and he would say South Africa

28 stinks, both in the practical situation and in the policy situation. How, I can't remember whether you said you saw this? --- I didn't see it, but I understand - PAUSE - But this is your interpretation of it. COURT: Now just look at the first line, it says "which way" and then there is a question mark, and then there is "E.L." and then a question mark, if I read it correctly. Ifow what does that mean, and then of course look at the eyes, well the eyes probably show you the person is confused, I mean it is looking in different directions. Is that E.L. or what? --- I am not certain, it looks like E.H. Do you think it is E.H. not E.L.? --- To me it looks like E.H. I don't know, it might be E.L. But the which way I think would simpl5r mean I would prefer to remove apartheid and live together as human beings created by C-od. and all as men equal, and living according to the human standards, that is what we are supposed to do. Or do we want to continue in the stink- of South Africa, of the policies and the way people are treated. HR. SOGGOT: How what I want you to do is tell us what your total response is to this placard, the eyes there which seem to be looking at one another, is that right? --- Yes. Then after the word stinks there appears to be the picture of a person or perhaps you can tell us how you interpret it? COURT: Where do you say there may be a picture of a person? --- I don't see it. HR. SOGGOT: M'lord, it may well be that I am using my imagination. COURT: It is an S, an exclamation mark and then I suppose stars and dots and commas. HR. /...

29 IIR. SOGGOT: Expletive, expletive, my learned friend says. What is your response to this poster, dees it stir any emotional response in you? --- Since these are the very common things which we discuss, it wouldn't make any difference, it is just a part of everyday life. But you see it may well be something that is part of the everyday life, but I am talking abo ut this poster with those two eyes, and the stars and the exclamation marks? --- About the stars, I wouldn't know exactly how to interpret it, maybe the eyes I would say is the world is watching which way South Africa will turn. All right, then..(court intervenes) COURT: Would this be a convenient stage to adjourn. COURT ADJOURNS COURT RESUMES: LYBOIT MABASA«STILL UNDER OATH: EXAMINATION BY HR. SOGGOT CONTINUED: M'lord, I merely want to put a few more posters to him, as I indicated I don't want to take him through the tedium of all the posters. RALLY B.17 please, "Azania my love, don't let pigs rape your children", did you see that? --- I didn't see it. Looking at it, what does it mean to you? COURT: Well first read it carefully raid think about it. IIR. SOGGOT: Are you ready, Hr. Habasa? --- Just a moment - PAUSE - COURT: Do you think you know what it means? --- Yes, I get the meaning. Well what does it mean? --- "Azania my love, don't let pigs rape your children", it will mean that Black people of South Africa shouldn't allow themselves to be wrongfully harassed or arrested by the police.

30 < MABASA MR. GOG-GOT: Now what word there refers to p o l i c e? ---Figs. ITow where have you ever heard such a usage of pigs before? --- In several places, in films..(hr. Soggot intervenes) './hat f i l m s? ---Where there are policemen..inaudible.. in a film like MacKew and so many other films when a policeman gets inside they will say: this place smells of pigs and so on, it refers..(court intervenes) COURT: I missed that, just tell me in what circumstances do they say this place smells of pig? --- When for instance in some films when a policeman cones into the pub, people who are drinking there will say: this place smells pig. Oh I see, because the policeman came in? --- Yes, they refer to police as pigs, and this has been adopted mostly by the Black youth and White youths, young people, when they show their indignation against the police they will say: ag, those pigs. M R. SOGGOT: Are you suggesting this is a penetration of American culture? --- Yes. But you say you didn't see that one. Have a look please at RALLY B.18: "Vacancies - Government of Azania - Major Lieutenants etcetera"? --- This one I didn't see. COURT: You didn't see? --- No. Well just read it carefully? --- There is something which is not very clear, I only see 3 and 4, I don't know whether there is 1, 2, 3 and 4» I cannot see it clearly. Just read what you can see? --- I only see Majors. Majors, Lieutenants, Captains, duties to train - PAUSE HR. SOGGOT: M'lord, what he says is he can't find the i can t find the 1 and what is written on top, Department of Defence, and immediately after Department of Defence I don't /...

31 don't see anything. Well I d o n t think it natters, what you can read..(court intervenes) COURT: Well Department of Defence - where does that appear? --- Just on top of majors, the sentence one cannot read clearly, but the Department of Defence if you look you can see it. Oh I see, yes, you have got very good eyesight - well I think it is only "Department Defence" and then "Majors, Lieutenants, Captains, duties to train lead 50 million Blades" The way this is, it is a type of - the person who wrote this wrote it as if now Black people were in power, now they were ruling, and as if there is some department, and these are the people needed in that department. I think in each and every government they have their lieutenants, captains and majors. Well in the Department of Defence they have these vacancies? --- Yes, they have these vacancies, so it means as if the person who wrote this, I think he is a good dreamer, he thought now black people were in power, and obviously they 20 would need this department like any other government would need it. MR. SOG-G-OT: He is a good d r e a m e r? ---Yes. COURT: And then he says: "apply SASO - BPC" and then "before we reach the fourth century of racist oppression"? --- I think here the person was showing a sentiment of the people he thinks would be responsible for the department of defence, because here he says to him he thought the people who would be illegible to have the department of defence where the applications should go are SASO and BPC. But then I think the 50 whole thing is just a very good dream, every Black man would like /...

32 MABASA like at times, that we have a government and we have a department of defence, I think it is just a dream. It could be that, but can t it also be that "vancancies government of Azania", now it is the department of defence, officers are necessary to lead 50 million Blacks, apply 3AS0/BPC before we reach the fourth century of racist oppression. In other words, an army must be formed by SASO and BPC before we reach the fourth century of racist oppression, and that is necessary for the government of Azania? --- That is why I say the catchwords, the top words 1C there, it is a good dream because they speak as if the government is already there, and then here where it speaks about apply "3AS0/BPC before we reach the fourth century of racist oppression". But now if the vacancies are already there in the government of Azania, how is this "before we reach the fourth century of racist oppression" relevant? --- That is why I say it has been much of a dream, and in the dream the person contradicted himself as far as I see it. He had a fine idea in the beginning that if we Black people can be free and form 20 our own government, but then again he makes a-contradiction because the moment we would just stand and say "the government of Azania", one would just think the government is already here. But if y o u go further he says some contradictions. I-1R. SOG-GrOT: Mr. I-Iabasa, did you see this o n e? ---I didn t see it. But looking at it now, apart from your as it were intellectual analysis that it is by a good dreamer, what does it stir in you, do you see this seriously or do you see this not seriously?---i take it not seriously. Z>0 You take it not seriously. I notice y o u are smiling. Ilay /...

33 I'IABASA Hay I be selective from here, would you look at B.20 please? Did you see that? --- Yes. W h e r e? ---I think it was in K square, what we refer to as K square, the lecture hall complex. And what was your response to that? --- I felt the person who wrote it was irresponsible, and just wanted to be provocative and sensational. Because this is the type of thing one wouldn't say to us publicly, the fact that he did it at night, I think he just wanted to be sensational. What effect did this have on the other students?---i 10 think the attitude of most students was just like mine, they felt he was out of place. Then B.23 "Down with Mulder and up with terrorism - to hell with the Vorster government". Now that phrase "up with terrorism", or let me first ask you B.23, did you see that? --- I don't remember seeing it. But look at it now would you. What is your response to t h a t? ---A^ain it is one of those people who wants wliat he writes to be felt, it is out of plo.ee again, I think it was just another irresponsible student who just wanted to be 20 a shocker, maybe even to frighten some White lecturers at school - at university I mean to say. What about the phrase "to hell with", have you ever heard that before on the campus? --- Well this one is very normal, for instance when they are canvassing for the 3RC and I don't like the person who is canvassing I will just raise my hand and then they will say: Mr. Mabasa? and I will just say: to hell with so and so because he won't do this and this. It is a very common word on our campuses. Have a look at B.25 please. CCUuT: Who is the Mulder they are referring to here? --- I wouldn't /...

34 wouldn't know who. MR. SOGGOT: V/ell vjho do you t h i n k? ---It might be a member of the government. COUHT: But he is not concerned with terrorism that they should say "Down with Mulder and up with terrorism", has Mulder got anything to do with terrorism so that they can say that? --- That i s why I said the person has not been specific, and since we didn't see him I cannot know exactly which Mulder he is referring to. There are two Ministers callcd Mulder I think in the Cabinet, the Minister of Interior and the Minister of Railwa --- That is why I say, I don't feel that it was any responsible student, because these people would be part of the structure but they wouldn't be directly responsible. V/ell now it is one that he didn't like evidently.---t MR. 30GG-0T: May I proceed, M'lord, B.25 please, did you see that? Yes. Where was it? --- It was in the..inaudible., lecture halls and so on. And what was your response to that? --- I can't quite remember whether it was the first or the second, this is the second one you gave me - PAUSE Just read that? --- "White ïnan it is time to proceed to India as you promised - get going", I feel again these two are almost alike, it is those people who studied history, and they want to show now how much they know about history, and they misquote facts. I feel again it is infantile and childish. What was the response of other students to that? --- Mo students just laughed. And then I think just one last one that I want to deal with /...

35 with, I am trying to make a sample of them, except, I wonder, just for the sake of the record please, Hr. Ha.ba.sa, H'lord, may he be referred - I won't ask him any questions on some of these, but I just want him to identify them, may he be referred to B.19, all I want you to do is to say ivhether you saw that on the c a m p u s? ---Yes, I saw it on the campus, but I cannot remember exactly where I saw it. Now, B.20 I think you said you saw, B.21 please, did you see that? --- Yes, I saw them,but I cannot say exactly where I saw them. And then B.22 please, did you see that? It says "Azania shall be free - no matter what canker..etcetera", did you see that? --- I cannot say. And then B.23 "i)own with Hulder", I can't remember what your answer was, did you see that one? COURT: He dealt with that one. H R. SOGGOT: I can't remember, M'lord, whether he said he saw it or not. COURT; Well he said he thought it was merely to frighten the White lecturers, because there was no point really in the thing. H R. SOGGOT: B.24 please, will you have a look at that. Did you see that one? --- Yes, I think I saw it. And B.25 we have dealt with. B.26, did you see that? --- I didn't see it. B.27? --- I think I saw it. B.23? --- I think I saw this one too. B.29? --- I don't think I saw it. B. 30? COURT: Well, what would you understand from.29, I mean knowing the students and knowing the circumstances at the university? --- Is this "we are not free"?

36 LIABASA B.29, it says "Revolution - Machel will help - away with Vorster band - we are not afraid - Black Power"? --- I think this one also falls within those who do not fall within the general rule, those who like to be sensational, these are the ones I said earlier on are people who want to cast impressions and they never come into the open, so I take it it is another irresponsible student, because at that time the students knew very little about Machel, so I feel he is one of those who is sensational and wants to shock people, or those who want to be dramatic. 10 MR. SQGrGOT: B.30 I think I asked you about? COURT: Well doesn't he call for a revolution here and say Machel will help, away with the Vorster band, well that probably relates to the rally, we are not afraid, Black Power. In other words defy the Vorster band, revolution, Machel will help? --- I think the placard here is calling for revolution, but I feel that it is just an irresponsible student because this is not what was the example set by the SRC, so it is just an irresponsible student. How would it tally with the climate at the university, 20 the feeling of the students generally? --- The feeling of the students generally, I think we are used to students who are sensational, and most of the time we leave them to talk and after they have talked we just look at them, that is how it happens. When people try to be sensational, we want somebody who has got matter and who tells us - for instance if such a student would have asked how do you think we will do it, he wouldn't have had an answer. The sensational student usually you find that when he talks everybody just keeps quiet. Yes I know, a university consists of all sorts of people, 50' but would you say this reflects the spirit generally, or just the /...

37 the odd man? --- I think it is just the odd man, it can't be generally. MR. SOG-GQT: What is the attitude of students to people who ay things such as: let's have a revolution, or let's have terrorism? --- In actual fact we do not trust such people, because most of them just happen to be informers who say such things, they want to get other people into trouble. We don't believe people who want to get other people into trouble because people who say this, when a motion is talien, whether it be..inaudible., they withdraw, so these are the type of people who get other people into trouble. The students do not usually give them - they give them a hearing, but they do not take them seriously. B.JO please, did you see that? --- I think I saw it but I cannot remember exactly where I saw it. And now I want you to deal with this, B.31 "Frelimo killed and won - South African Blacks?" - this was on a calico sheet? --- I think here the question mark is - it is "Frelimo-killed and won", what I understand maybe, the question may be that will South African Blacks follow the same to win, or is it necessary for South Africa to kill to win. I am sorry, is it necessary for whom to kill? --- For Black South Africans to kill to win. Now where did you see this? --- There were two sheets, I cannot remember, because one had "Welcome Frelimo" at the gate, and there was one I think on the tennis courts, I cannot say exactly where I saw this one. And what was your response to this? --- I think we South African Blacks can answer this one that there will be no need to kill, and apart from that my interpretation due to my Christian belief, it won't be that I should kill.

38 MABASA Let me just ask you this to be quite explicit, do you think that your responses to these posters differ from the other students..(mr. Rees intervenes) MR. REES OBJECTS: I object, M'lord, he can tell us what he knows about the responses of other students, but their opinion from an unqualified person is not admissible. M R. SOGGOT: Perhaps I can rephrase it and satisfy my learned friend at the same time. Do you think that there are any elements in your belief or outlook which - or let me put it even more bluntly, are there any elements in your 3.0 belief or outlook which separate your thinking from other students on the campus? --- I don't think there is, because in many cases when we meet in our mass meetings, we have very few abstainers, and most of the motions like this one - like when we were told about the rally, we all agreed. So I would say most of the time we agree with the students. Of course there are those x^ho fall out of the general rule. That is the fringe element? --- Yes. COURT: I think Mr. Soggot wants to know, you with your Christian background and your obvious interest in religion, do you 20 have the same outlook as the cross-section student at your university? --- Yes, I think so, and this is where we organised Christian meetings during our mission weeks and so on, we get the support of all students, so I would feel that we are almost travelling as it were the same route. Of course we may differ merely in the way we live, but when it comes to ideals most of the time we travel the same way. MR. SOGGOT: How, Mr. Mabasa, I just want to ask you a few questions before I sit down. I think you have already told His Lordship, that you saw, I think you said 60 to 70 or to 80 posters, is that right? --- Yes. Including /...

39 Including obviously the ones which you have referred to t o d a y? ---Yes. Now the rest of the posters which aren't here today how would you describe them? --- Most of them were "Viva Frelimo, viva Zambesia, Black dignity has been restored" and so on, which I felt they were all right, I was aligning myself with them. COURT: Do you know what "Viva" meant? --- "Long live" I think. MR. SOG-GOT: One other question, did you have early morning lectures? --- I didn't have the first period which is 7.45, I had the following one. Did you receive - or let me say this, did some students come to the hostel who had been to early morning lectures? ---Yes. And what was their mood? --- They were amused, they told me to go and see some placards that were there, they were really amused. M'lord, I have no further questions. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. REES: What did y ou say your name was? --- Lybon Mabasa. Mabasa not Mabaso? --- Yes. You say a number of the placards had the words "Viva Frelimo, viva Zambesia, Black dignity shall be restored", and you say you aligned yourself with those placards, the ideas expressed therein, is that correct? --- Not "Black dignity shall be restored", but "Black dignity has been restored", and I agreed with that. You agreed with that group of placards, v/hy did you agree with that? --- I agreed with them, because we as Black people, we rejoice with whoever is happy, I think we are almost /...

40 HABASA almost doing what the Christian belief teaches, that if somebody is happy, be happy with him, and if he mourns mourn with him. So as the Black people of Mozambique were getting their freedom, I was happy with them. All right. Prom your reply I deduce that you were not aligning yourself with other placards? --- Not actually that I was not aligning, but I felt that they were out of hand or somebody was trying just to be dramatical. Did you or did you not align yourself with those other placards? --- Yes, I didn't align myself with them. You did not align yourself with them? --- Yes. Now you said when you were referred to RALLY B.31, that you thought there was no need for South Africans to kill, and you referred to your interpretation of this due to your Christian outlook? --- Yes. Could you tell the Court why you added your qualification? --- I added that qualification because my Christian outlook is people should be taught to respect and restore one another*s dignity, -they should be taught to look at one another as humans rather than one as human and the other as sub-human, and from that point people will interchange ideas and there will be no need to kill because you come to realise that one is your brother, and that relationship will make it not necessary to kill. Now do other people see this necessity for killing in a different light? --- M'lord, most Black people know what happens when people get killed. No, you haven't answered my question, do some people see the question of killing in a different light? --- I don't think so. Well then why did you add the qualification? --- I added

41 " 7128 HABASA the qualification to give my personal point of view before I tackle what other people may think. In fact you separated your view from that of other people? --- I don't think I did, M'lord, because when I said my Christian outlook a Christian outlook doesn't belong to an individual but to the entire Christian world, which South Africa is part of. Now, you come from Soweto? --- That is right. When did y o u leave Soweto? --- Today. What time? --- I caught the quarter to seven train. 10 This morning? --- Yes. What was happening in Soweto yesterday? --- Where in Soweto, because you know Soweto is so big. V/as anything unusual happening in Soweto yesterday? ---Yes. Well, what? --- Children were marching, demonstrating against the use of Afrikaans on a basis in school. So you had no problem with that did you? And that led to violence didn't it, or don't you know about it? --- Well before I say yes, we have got to say how did it lead to 20 violence, because I..(Mr. Rees intervenes) Did it or didn't it lead to violence? --- It led to violence, but I was on the spot, at least I can explain how did it come about that it led to violence. And tell me, did you know how this thing start originally, who organised it? --- I read in the papers that various students organised it. COURT: I beg your pardon, what did you read in the paper? --- I say I read in the paper, I cannot remember, two or three weeks ago where there was a report in the Daily Mail that 50 the students of Orlando Vest junior secondary school were out of /...

42 of classes because they are refusing to be taught certain subjects in Afrikaans. And did the students in your school participate in this demonstration? --- In my school they didn't. They did not? --- Yes. Not at all? --- Maybe because they were writing examinations, I don't know. Did you say that none of the students in your school participated in the demonstration? --- None that I know of, H'lord. No, but you were there until this morning? --- Until this morning they were writing, so I cannot say, when they are writing I am invigilating, so I cannot say they did not because when we were invigilating throughout the week they didn1t. COURT: I think what Counsel wants to know is whether there were absentees at your school over the last five weeks because of these riots - because of these demonstrations? --- I don't know of any because they are vrriting examinations so if I..(Court intervenes) Oh I see they were writing examinations so you didn't have regular classes? --- I was invigilating in the morning and in the afternoon, so I cannot say that in the other classes there were no students, because we knew the students to be writing and we knew them to be at school. HR. REES: Now, according to the newspaper, these students killed several people, did you read that? --- Yes, H'lord. Now that is a tragic affair, isn't it? --- It is, H'lord And according to the newspapers, people were - why do you smile at this, Hr. Habasa, what is there xo smile about this tragic matter? --- H'lord, I think maybe you should continue /...

43 7130 HABASA continue with your questions and then later maybe I can explain why I am smiling. Well tell us now, I want to know now what you find.. (witness intervenes) --- Because, H'lord, I think that your argument is one-sided that students killed, while it is not only students who killed, but the killing was - the first people to kill were the police. Did you see it, did you see the police killing anybody?..laughter H'lord, you quoted the newspapers, so I can quote the newspapers too, the newspapers said it is the police who first killed just like you did. Which newspaper?---the Rand Daily Mail. Mr. Nat Serache's article in particular, isn't it so? --- H'lord, I wouldn't..(mr. Rees intervenes) Did you read Hr. Hat Serache's article this morning? --- H'lord, I think as you are asking me questions which demand yes or no, you should be content that I answered that from the newspapers as you quoted..(hr. Rees intervenes) Did you read Mr. Hat Serache's article this morning? --- Yes, H'lord. HR. SOGGOT: H'lord, I want to object to the relevance of this cross-examination, it sounds very much as if my learned friend is opening up an inquiry into the events yesterday, the relevance to the issues in this case and indeed this witness' state of mind, H'lord, seem circumvential. COURT: HR. REES: Mr. Rees, what is the relevance of this? M'lord, I submit his state of mind is very very relevant - bear with me a moment, 1 think he wants to say something? --- Ho, please speak up, I don't hear. COURT: You say his state of mind is relevant? HR. REES: His state of mind is very relevant, H'lord, and the /...

44 the connection..(court intervenes) COURT: In what way? HR. REES: H lord, will the Court bear with me for a moment I would like to get onto the track I was busy with, if the Court will allow me. Mr. Habasa, you were at Turfloop, and you say you were the chairman of a - PAUSE --- Students' Christian Movement. What church organisation is this Student Christian Movement affiliated to? --- It is independent. Completely - is this an organisation that is solely concerned with your university? --- It is not solely concerned with my university but in 1965 when the SCA, which was then the..(hr. Rees intervenes) I don't want a long story, I just want to know? --- I want to give you the relevant information concerning the SCM. Please just tell me, are they connected with any other organisation? --- Not that I know of. Right, then I don't want to know the history. --- Yes. When you hold your meetings etcetera does your group also shout "power" and give the salute with the fist raised? --- Well, H'lord..(Hr. Rees intervenes) I want to know whether that is something..(witness intervenes) --- I wouldn't say our group because that depends on the individual consciousness, we don't stop them if they shout "power". This "power", is that something that one finds or that one found originally among SASO or BPC or don't you know? --- Well it is found in SASO and BPC and almost now of late in all of the entire Black community. But it originated with SASO and BPC, they were the people

45 MABASA who used - who are you looking at specifically every time I question you? --- I am looking at you. No, you are not looking at me? --- I am looking at you. No, you are not, you are looking back in the Court, were you or were you not? --- I don't remember, M'lord. Oh, you don't remember what you were doing two minutes ago, is that so? --- PAUSE Do you find this amusing, you are again smiling aren't you? COURT: He is not smiling, it is the expression on his face. --- WITNESS SAYS SOMETHING INAUDIBLE MR. REES: Mr. Mabasa, you say this salute has now become - this shouting of "power" and putting up of the fist has now become general? --- It is popular amongst Black people. Popular? --- Yes. Since whenr --- I wouldn't know the years, M'lord, but I have found that most people at most meetings, even sometimes when they are Christian meetings, I have found that in the end people do shout power. And the shouting of power, this involves the lifting of the right fist, or is it the left fist? --- On my observation I found that there is no general rule that it has to be a right hand or a left hand. Do you use it? --- Yes, M'lord. With what purpose? --- My purpose in using it is I don't want to look at myself as an entity but to indentify myself and relate to the Black community wherein I live and wherein I share the same problems and way of life. What are the problems that you share? --- Like being segregated against. Yes, what else? --- M'lord, I don't think I will be able

46 MABASA to recount all my Black experience here, otherwise we can continue until sunset and continue every day without finishing, because that is what I suffer d a i l y.- You suffer daily? --- Yes, M'lord. Where did you suffer today and yesterday? --- Yesterday I shared - I was sharing with those children who were shot yesterday, and I was suffering and I was feeling with them. When did you know about the shooting? --- When did I know, M'lord? Yes? --- During the course of the day. During the course of the day? --- Yes. Did you also know that various social xrorkers, V,Thite social workers and others had been killed yesterday? COURT: One social w o r k e r. ---No, I only read about that in the newspaper, but the other ones I heard about them when I was in school so I had to leave and go to the spot to see what was happening. MR. REES: So you were there? --- Yes, M'lord. At what place were you? --- I went and stood next to Uncle Tom's hall. Where is that? --- In Soweto. Now, when were you first ajjproached to give evidence in this case? --- I was approached, actually M r. Chetty phoned Mr. Samuel HLocbatla in Orlando West High School, and told him that he would like to see me, actually Mr.Hloubatla and myself and Mr. Mohope, they told me that on Thursday in the evening. Last Thursday? --- Last Thursday. And v;hen did you see Mr. Chetty.-'---I met Mr. Chetty at SACC - PAUSE Where is that? --- It is in Johannesburg. Yes /...

47 HABASA Y e s? ---And then he took us to I-Ir. Soggot's office. What does SACC stand for" --- South African Council of Churches. And when did you meet him there? --- We waited for him in the foyer of SACC. When was that? --- That was on Saturday, we arrived there I think round about quarter to three, and at three o'clock he arrived and took us to Mr. Soggot*s office. And then? --- And then Mr. Soggot..INAUDIBLE., and asked me what I knew about the rally in Turfloop, the same questions he has been asking me here, and he asked me if I was willing to give evidence, and I said if that will help I am quite willing. If that will help who? --- The people who are appearing, the accused. I see. And what documents did he show you if any? --- He showed me these. He showed you all these posters? --- I don't know whether all, but -most of them I saw. And did you go through them all with him? --- Yes, I went through those he had with him. Did you give him a written statement, or did you just tell him verbally? --- I did it verbally, but there are a few which I wrote about. Did you have any difficulty in remembering any events? --- Well I think it is normal, it is normal, there isn't a person who can remember everything over a long period. Yes I know. And then, how were you reminded of what the events w e r e? ---I wasn't reminded, I only - there were things which were vivid in my mind. Yes, and other things were not, and how was your memory refreshed /...

48 refreshed? --- I don't get the question. How was your memory refreshed, you say you couldn't remember everything, you have given evidence here very clearly? --- What I have said here is what I remembered, those which I didn't remember, he said if I couldn't remember anything I shouldn't force myself to remember it, so that is why even in Court there were things I didn't remember. And then, who were the other people you say that were with you t h e r e? --- Mr. Samuel Hloubatla and Hr. Thomas Mohope. And you say you came through this morning? --- Yes. Wasn't the transport in Soweto somewhat disrupted this morning? --- When I left there were no problems, everything was all right. Where exactly did you leave f r o m? ---From Cliawela. Chawela? --- Yes, in Soweto. Hov: did you t r a v e l? ---By train. Did' you transfer in Johannesburg?---Pardon9 Did you change trains in Johannesburg? --- I found Hr. - I went to..inaudible..street, and stood there, then Hr. Chetty came and took me. Did Mr. Chetty bring you here? --- He took me to Hr. Soggot's place and Hr. Soggot brought me here. I see. Who all came with you? --- We were only two. Only the two? --- Yes. Have you ever heard the word Fascist? --- xes, but I have never known its meaning. If I suggest that this word Fascist is frequently used on your campus, what would you say? --- On our campus? Well, there are words which are frequently - it may be one of them.

49 Do you. know or don't you k n o w? --- I cannot say I know. What films were these in which you saw that a policeman is referred to as a pig, what is the name of the film? --- M'lord, I have seen several films, I d o n t know whether I can exactly remember the names, but if my memory serves me well I think there was a film called IlacKew, where there is something like policemen being referred, to as pigs, I am not, on this point I am not sure my memory serves me well, but in several films, this one I remember the words which were the catchwords in the film, they say: what happens if a policeman dies with his boots on, and that is where they refer to policemen as pigs. Where was this film made, in what country does it originate, or don't you know? --- I wouldn't know exactly where it was shot, but it is United Artists. Were there any placards in the hall the day that you were there, placards or banners or pamphlets or anything? --- There were some. What were they, ones that you associated yourself with, or ones that you didn't associate yourself with? You see M'lord, I cannot remember the words written on those placards Well I want to know whether they were placards that you associated yourself with, or ones you did not associate yourself with? --- Unless I remember the contents of the placards, I cannot say I associate or dissociate, I say I do not remember the words. Yes, Mr. Mabasa, you were there that day, and you can tell us what your reaction was that day, were there any pamphlets that struck you were ones that the people hide away --- I said I do not remember the words on the placards, so I cannot bind myself to say I know the attitude I had towards

50 the placards. I only remember that there were some placards. Do you not even remember your attitude, your reaction? --- My concentration that day w a s n t much on the placards in the hall but my concentration was towards what was happening in the hall. what was happening in the hall, there were speeches and there were placards? --- Well, H lord, I said I do not remember the words on the placards. No, but you can't even remember your reaction? - Ljy reaction, H'lord, is bound by - if I remember the contents of the placards I will know my reactions, but if I do not remember the contents of the placards, it is hard for me to say I know exactly how I reacted. But did you have any reason to remember your reaction to any particular placards? --- Not that I had a reason, but when they were brought to me and I read them, I knew when I saw the placards, the placards which Mr. Soggot showed me in his office, then I will look at it and then say the words, and I will remember what is happening. Oh, but you saw all these placards? --- I didn't see all, some I said here in Court that I didn't see. And how - was there any reason why you should note what other people's reactions were? --- Because people were talking. Was there any reason why you should take particular notice? --- Yes, H lord. What was the reason? --- Because if people talk and you understand the language they are talking, you cannot avoid hearing what they are saying. Is there any reason for you particularly to take note of what they were saying0 --- M' lord, if people talk in a group and you are near that group, you cannot avoid hearing what /...

51 what they are saying. Yes that is different to remembering everything that was said and what the reaction was? --- I d i d n t say I remember every reaction, bat I said the reaction I remember was this, I never used the word every reaction. Oh, you just remembered certain reactions? --- Yes, II'lord. Why do you say you remembered the reactions, did you consider them important that day? --- Yes the day was important in a way that we were happy that the people of Mozambique were celebrating their freedom, I mean that was important to us as Black people. These placards and banners that attacked the South African government and said "down with the Whites", was that also part of the celebration? --- M'lord, I said here in Court before that other placards were of irresponsible students who wanted to be sensational, thus I alienated myself from those placards. Alienated yourself from them? --- Yes, I didn't align myself with them, I d i d n t agree with their ideals. Did y o u see any banners or placards or anything being carried on the soccer field? --- M'lord, there might have been, I said I remember there were some placards in the hall, so on the soccer field there might have been, but I cannot say I saw them. I want to know whether or not you saw them or con't you remember? --- I can't remember that I saw them. If there had been placards of which your disapproved or with which you did not align yourself on the soccer field, wouldn't that have been a reason to draw your attention to it? M'lord, I don't understand the question, will you repeat it please? If /...

52 If there had been placards or banners with which you - or which were contrary to your acceptance of a celebration, is it likely you would have remembered it or would have noticed it? --- M'lord, I wouldn't say I should have remembered it or noticed it. Wouldn t it have made any impression on you? --- M'lord, irresponsibility doesn't make much impression on ne most of the time. Did you see or hear anybody with a drum there that day? --- Pardon? 10 Did anybody have a drum there on the soccer field that day, in or near the soccer field? --- Yes, but I cannot remember who he was. If it was some person playing a leading role there, would you be likely to have remembered that? --- M'lord, I can't say. Again I see you smile, is that just how you are pulling your mouth? --- M'lord, I don't see myself, there is no mirror, so I don't know whether I am smiling, because I am convinced I am not. 20 I see. Just now when we had the break, who all did you talk to --- I drank coffee. Who nil, did you talk t o? ---I am trying to remember what I did, I didn't talk actually, I only gave him my address. Who is "him"? --- Mr. Chetty. Yes, who else did you talk to? --- I didn't tali:, I only greeted the people, the accused, and then asked for coffee and then drank it. Who did y o u ask for coffee? --- The person who gave me coffee was Saths, Accused No.l, Hr. Cooper. And which of the Accused did you go and talk to? --- M'lord,

53 I didn't have a talk, I only greeted then. Each of them individually? --- Those who were near, the persons who were near, it was Mr. Nefolovhodwe, I greeted Dr. I-Iokoape and I was greeted by Ilk we nk w e. Where do you know Dr. Mokoape from? From the dock here. Since when, since this morning? --- Not this morning, I had read in the newspapers, and then the first time I came to Court I saw him. How many times have you been at this Court? --- I cannot specifically - it might have been five or six times. Did you come and listen here to the case going on? --- In the beginning of the year before I went to Turfloop to find out why I wasn't admitted, I came here twice or thrice, and then I came the day Hr. Cooper was cross-examined about Sharpeville, and he said something like the truth hurts, and I came again..(mr. Rees intervenes) You say he said something like the truth? --- The truth hurt s. The truth hurts? --- Yes. The truth hurts whom? --- He was asked a question, I cannot remember exactly who said it, whether the people in Sharpeville lost their lives or were killed and he said, M'lord, the truth hurts but they were killed. The truth hurts but they were k i l l e d? ---Ilmmm Yes, and when else were you in Court? --- And I didn't even stay for 30 minutes when Mosioua Lekota was giving evidence. Yes? --- That was the last time I came. I see. Did you tell Mr. Soggot that you had been in Court three times or did he know it? --- I told him that I have been here. And /...

54 And did you tell Hr. Chetty? --- Yes. Did-you speak to any of then here while you were in. C o u r t? ---When I was? When you were here in Court or when you attended the C o u r t? ---ITo, they didn't know much about me. What subjects did you take at university? --- English. Yes? --- Biblical studies. How many years did you study English? --- I have English up to Course 2 level, I passed Course 2 English. What was the second one? --- Biblical studies. Biblical studies, yes? --- Philosophy, linguistics. Philosophy, well you must tell us how many years of each? --- Philosophy one year, biblical studies two years, Tsonga 1 year, geography one year, linguistics one year. Why did you have such an interest in this case that you came here quite a number of times? --- Well, I think the case has - the people like - PAUSE I just want to know your interest? --- I want to give you my interest, my interest is that the people who are here have been members of our SRC, and we are the people who chose them, so I wanted to know what is the outcome of their trial. And you wanted to assist them where you could? --- That wasn't the aim, but if an opportunity was to avail itself, I wouldn't doubt to assist them. Yes. What part did you play in this petition that led to - that Gallens initiated at the university in 1974? --- I signed my name too. Did you have anything else to do with it other than signing your name? ---H o. Did you know anything else about what Gallens had done and who he had consulted and what he had d o n e? ---ITo, but I had /...

55 7142 " HABASA had the privilege of knowing him and I believe that so far as..(mr. Rees intervenes) I don't want to know wiiat you believe, I want to know what you k n o w? ---What I knew is that he was saying 01' having a petition on what most of the students felt was necessary at that time. Yes, G-allens took round the petition etcetera, did you help him organise the thing or did you participate in any way in the organisation of the matter? --- I didn't. You did not? --- Yes, M'lord. I want to know from you why then you could state here that SASO did not have a hand in initiating the petition? --- Why I say SASO did not have a hand in initiating the petition is because personally in 1973 I seconded a motion..(mi Rees intervenes) No, but I am talking about the 1974 one? --- I am trying to show the attitude towards the very same SRC, that it wasn't the first time that it was about to be ousted. Mr.' Mabasa, you knew in fact nothing of what G-allens did, or who he consulted? --- Yes, M'lord. You only know what the general student feeling was? --- Yes, M'lord. Therefore you come here and say SASO had nothing to do with it, you were just guessing? --- M'lord, I am not guessing because that was - if I had had the opportunity, I would have done myself. COURT: How do you relate the motion that you seconded in 1973 to this - to the questions being asked? --- I relate it in the way that when the move to oust the SRC in 1973 w a s aborted, I had seconded such a motion which I am trying to say that it wasn't the first time that students themselves without /...

56 without anybody from outside initiating them, had tried to oust the 3RC, so my feeling is that even in 1974 the same feeling amongst the students were still existing towards ne SRC. v/hy did you feel so strongly against the SRO? --- Because that 3RC was consulting with the Rector without representing the students and witliou st udent mandatc, o we felt they were doing what they felt was right withou consulting us as students, to hear our opinion, and thus they were acting on their own capacity, not representing the whole tudent body. You say you were a member of 3A30? --- I was never a member of SAGO. But now you were so concerned about student policies, wh, d i d n t you join SASO? --- I didn't join SASO because I was much involved in the SCH where I was, and as a result I didn't have time even to attend SASO meetings, so it would have been useless for me, if I become involved in something I want to have full participation in that thing. HR. REES: Did you collaborate with SASO in any way or did they collaborate with y o u? ---I-I'lord, on campus I wouldn't kno' whether we are collaborating, because most of the time it was the attitude that we are Blacks.. I1ÏAUDIBL J.. students, and that our collaboration was not maybe on 3AS0/SCT1 basis, but on Black experience basis..(hr. Rees intervenes) I want to know whether or not you collaborated with SASO? --- I sympathised with SASO. '.That was there about their activities thaio you had to sympathise w i t h? ---Because I felt that..(ilr. Rees intervenes I don't want to know the reason, I want to know what

57 concept which showed the Black man who he is, and how to relate to other people in Black consciousness. Where did they come with this concept? --- The concept of Black Consciousness. When did they come with that? --- I cannot remember when they came irith it, but when I came into contact with people who propounded..(hr. Rees intervenes) Who did you come into contact with? --- As the chairman of the SCI'l, H lord, I had this problem now and again because I..(Hr. Rees intervenes). /ho did you come into contact w i t h? ---I am trying to answer that. Ilease tell me who you came into contact with. COURT: Well I think he is trying to tell us, Hr. Rees, you say as chairman of the SCH what was your position? --- I was in a position where in the 30H we were having Whites coming to the campus while before I came to campus in 1972, they had adopted a non-contact policy, and as a result I found myself debating with the members of SASO, the members of the SRC, how do you White/Black relationships on campus, and that ( is how I came to know people who belonged to SASO, some of them who were students and they would oppose me. HR. R E E S: Which persons, that is what I cm interested in, any of these accused or other SASO people? --- Other SASO members and..(hr. Rees intervenes) Who? --- I cannot say exactly, people like Jimmy Hatsapole, who would call me into his room and we would have a debate about the contact policy. Who is Jimmy Hatsapola? --- He was a student at the University of the itorth. Where is he n o w? --- I don't know.

58 d o n t know exactly what he was, but I knew that he was once in the 3A30 committee. Did you have any dealings with any of these accused concerning SASO a f f a i r s?---no, I didn't have deaj-ings with them concerning SASO but I always had dealings with them when I organised prayer days, mission weeks, as both of them have been in the SRC. This Hatsapola, would j^ou describe him as a responsible person? --- Well when it comes to my dealings with him I think he was responsible, because he was..iijaudible.. enough to discuss with me, rather than other people who were just howled down and said: away with the 3CM, he was quite willing to discuss with me. COURT: Wasn't the SCM popular on the campus? --- There was a time when the SCM wasn't popular there on campus. Why? --- Because maybe by then the SCM people felt that they had nothing to do with the campus, which maybe it was the type- of religion they had received from missionaries, not ' the down core true Gospel. HR. REES: Hr. Ilabasa, these events that erupted yesterday, did you at any time before there was this eruption and the shooting and the killing, believe that events were going to lead up to such an eruption? --- I didn't believe the events would lead to such eruptions, because I felt that the government was going to do something about it before yesterday. It is unfortunate that they were left until they reached yesterday. 'Well, you believed the government would give in or accede to the demands? --- I felt there was no question of giving in or acceding to demands, because there was no direct challenge

59 7 1 4 Í) T * f T H C1 1 riabasa that we challenge, it v/as more better that the government just do it whether it be right or wrong. I want to get this clear, look, weren't the students making demands on the government. Were they or were they not? --- They were. They were making d e m a n d s?---mmmm How you say if the government had done something it wouldn t have led to the confrontation?---yes, 1*1'lord. If the government had done what? --- If the government had seen the need that since we don t have teachers of 10 Afrikaans, until such time as we have got teachers..(ilr. Rees intervenes) Wnat did you want the government to do to avert the events of yesterday? --- To use the staff which is there of people who know English to teach English until such time that we have produced enough teachers to teach Afrikaans. In other words you suggest that if the government had acceded to the demands of the students, this would not have happened? --- Yes, M lord. That is the crux of the matter. And what exactly were 2.. the demands? --- That Afrikaans - that quantum subjects should be taught in English as they do not understand their teachers who teach them in Afrikaans. And the fact that the State did not accede to the demands led to a confrontation? --- Well, M lord, it is not only I who produced that but even the report by the member of the Progressives yesterday..(mr. Rees intervenes) Ho, but forget the Progressives now I want to know the Black t h i n k i n g?---that is how the fact is, II lord, lie ju J-.»-> ''J ventilated what Black people would have said., i, Which Progressive are you talking about? --- It was in the /...

60 the Press, H'lord,..(Hr. Rees intervenes) Which Progressive are you talking about? --- The Progressive-Reformed Party. /ho are you talking a b o u t? ---H'lord, I don t know. Right. Now, isn't it a fact that a lot of students started getting together and marching to some places with placards? Yes, H'lord. And they were either stopped by the police? --- I don't know where they were exactly stopped by the police 'until they reached Orlando West. Did you believe these students were going to a particular place? --- Well they finally reached a particular place. What place did they reach? --- That was Orlando West High in the complex of Uncle Tom's towards Hokgethi's garage. What time did you go there? --- I went there at about 12, I cannot say. COURT: That is your school, isn't i t? ---ITo., my school is Headowlands High, which is about a mile and a quarter away from that place. IIR. REES: You went there at about 12 o'clock? --- Yes, at about 12 o'clock. Is that when you arrived? --- Yes. Now what caused you to go there? --- Some teachers who went to town via there said there were a lot of students and apparently there are a. lot of policemen, now I didn't want to read it in the Press, I wanted to see what was happening myself since I was available. And what did you see happening? --- I saw the students, some of them were sitting on the lawn having placards that "We don't want Afrikaans, if we have to do Afrikaans, let the White students do Zulu on a basis".

61 ^ KABASA Yes, what else did you s e e? ---And others said: "We d o n t want Afrikaans, we..(i-ir. Rees intervenes) What did you believe what did the students want to go and achieve, what did they want to do? --- PAUSE what purpose was this gathering or marching, what purpose was it to achieve? - I-I'lord, I don t know - I wouldn't like to commit myself since I wasn't part of them, I wouldn't soy exactly this is exactly what they would achieve, because that is what many students think and..(hr. Rees intervenes) But what did they want to a c h i e v e? ---'That I believe 1C is that they wanted to be given - to be allowed to use English until such time as..(hr. Rees intervenes) Oh, but now that is - I am sorry, I put my question wrong, look, they wanted a change in their curriculum or a change in their teaching m e t h o d s? ---They didn t want a change in their teaching methods, because the problem they are experiencing it as I see it as a teacher, is that we teachers do not know Afrikaans, and so if teachers do not know Afrikaans how do you expect students to know Afrikaans. Just a moment, we are not entering into the debate of 2C the rights and wrongs, I just want to know, these people wanted to bring about a certain c h a n g e? ---Yes, I-I lord. Whether it is right or wrong d o e s n t matter, is that so? --- Mm mm ITow, they converged with banners and they were going to march to a certain place with banners, is that so or i s n t it s o? ---Y e s, II lord. And that led to violence between them and the police:1 --- Yes, I-I lord. How, so far as you know or from your experience, what yc was the purpose of the march, you have got your grievance, now ou /... y 1

62 get together, what was the purpose of the march? --- I think the purpose of the march is to show the public and «A» to join - actually it is solidarity to say: we see the problem together in the same way. You say you never thought there might be an eruption of violence, or did you think it might erupt? --- when, H lord? At any stage? ---At any stage I never thought there would be violence, because I thought the government was going to do something about it. That is why I never thought there would be violence. ilow, according to the newspapers there were the same salutes and the same shouts being used by these students yesterday, the Black Power salute, the fist in the air and the shouts of power, p o w e r "? ---Yes. You heard them? --- Yes, H'lord. By the students? --- Yes, H'lord, by the pupils. How the pupils according to some of these newspaper reports,- some of them appeared to be grown-up men like you, is that correct, they said so in the Iland Daily Hail if I remember correctly? --- H lord, I think you restricted mo when I quoted the Rand Daily Hail, so I wouldn t say how you are at liberty to quote it..(hr. Rees intervenes) Plea.se just answer the questions and don't be impertinen please? --- H lord, you showed me that attitude. This is not a debasing chamber, you answer the questions will you? Did y o u see that some of these students are groimup men like you? --- H lord, according to the reports in the newspaper..(court intervenes) COURT: The question is whether you saw grown-up men amongst the students? --- I d i d n t see grown-up students like me, H l

63 , - p, - ' j. i. x. 111«RJ.JJ: Did you see grown-up s t u d e n t s?---h'lord, I wouldn't know what you call a grown-up student, whether 3'ou mean in height or in years, because I didn't ask then: how old are you, to find out whether they are grown-up. I f a 13 year old or a 15 year old child is taller than me I wouldn't call him a grown-up child, because he is..(hr. Rees intervenes) tall boys. Did you see people..(witness intervenes) --- I saw Tall boys? --- Yes, H'lord. 1/hy do you say tall b o y s? ---Because I cannot say they are grown-up unless I know them. How do you know they are boys since you can't say they are grown-up? --- Because they are in the primary and mainly.. (H r. Rees intervene s ) How do you know that, weren't there thousands of people from all schools? --- The report in the newspapers say those are primary children. HR. G0GG0T: intervenes) HR. REDS: I want to make an objection, H'lord..(Ilr. Peer If my learned friend wants to object, then he Of c ^ can sit do^m. L1: V/ell he is entitled to make an objection, Hr. Rees. HR. 30GG0T: H'lord, my submission is my learned friend is going into matters which CLl* 3 cv t this stage very recent in time, in respect of which there is perhaps a fair amount of feeling, and my submission is has no relevance whatsoever to the facts in issue, H'lord, and is an unnecessary prolonging of the matter. 3 COURT: 'Jell what is the relevance, Hr. Rees? TV / I J L. 0 J 0 0 *

64 IP. RDE3: M 'lord, I submit the relevance is here the state of mind of Deople and the effect of this tvpe of L. X V ml propaganda and the effect of the activities of SASO, Your lordship will recall that SASO sa.id they were going to infiltrate the schools and they were going to spread their dogma etcetera, and I want to question him on that. COURT: Yes, well he doesn't know who were in this demonstration, he assumed that they were all children. ITow you are cross-examining him about that. I1R. HISS: HR. SOGGOT: Yes, H'lord. II'lord, this is totally out of the period embraced by the indictment. COURT: Ilr. Rees it doesn't seem to be relevant, unless, I understood your cross-examination when you tried to show what confrontation meant, but I thin!: you are now going beyond that point. MR. R U E S: Right, now what do you understand by confrontation? --- I would say confrontation is when - confrontation is when people who differ in ideology or way of life either go publicly and denounce one another or there can be a confrontation which can be violent. But a confrontation can be - there can be a non-violent confrontation and there can be a violent confrontation. The events at Turfloop on that day, would you say that was a confrontation or not? --- At what tine, H'lord? Did it amount to a confrontation at any time? --- Yes, H'l W h e n? ---V/hen Ishmail Makabela was clubbed and the dogs were allowed to bite the students, the students felt upset about that, so some of them in that state of rn^er started throwing stones at the police, so I call that a confrontation. That is violent isn't it, violent confrontation? --- Yes,

65 I'lABASA you nicy call it that, M lord. I noticed when you received this exhibit ilallx 13.54* you had no problem in pointing out anything on it? --- PAUSE COURT ADJOUjIITS /VIID.

66 7153 ' MABASA. THE COURT RESUMES AT 2 P.M. ON THE 17th JUNE LYBON MABASA: still under oath: FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR R E E S : You say Sedibe announced this rally at a students' meeting? Yes, it was a meeting where there were students and it was full, the hall was full of students. Wasn't this a SASO meeting? That I cannot remember but what I know is that students were full in the hall. You do not know whether it was a SASO meeting or not? I cannot clearly remember that. (10) Do you remember what the purpose of the meeting was? I remember there was an address by a certain woman, I cannot remember her name now, speaking about the role of women in the Black society. You are not too clear of the events at that time or are you very clear of them? What makes me not to be clear of this specific day is the previous days I was not.on the campus, only that day I came to campus. I do not quite understand why you say Sedibe said - referred to some students unrest in What was the (20) unrest that he referred to? I think it was a demonstration in Johannesburg by the Wits students. What demonstration did they have? Those were students which were not with the mass expulsion of students at Turfloop and which sparked all over the country in all the universities. What did the Wits students do? They marched and there were clashes with the police, baton charges and so on. Yes. There were clashes with the police and baton charges. Is that what you understood Sedibe to be referring (JO) to? Yes. And/...

67 ÍIABASA. And what was this about acting immaturely or something to that effect? I think what he meant.. (intervenes) No, what did he say? His Lordship can decide what he meant. He said that we are not going to demonstrate, we are just going to hold the rally peacefully which means there will not be marches, we will just get into the hall, conduct the rally and then after that.. (intervenes) Did he say - I am interested in what he said. Did he say: we are just going to hold the rally peacefully? I did not say I was quoting him.. (intervenes) (10) But that is what I he said. I said I cannot remember the words as he put them, but what.. (intervenes) What was the effect of the words? The effect of the words was that we were going to hold a rally organised by the SRC. Yes? And that we should not understand it as a demonstration, it is not going to be a demonstration as the demonstrations witnessed in 1972 with students at Wits. You see every now and again I see you looking intently at somebody at the back of the court. Who are you (20) looking at? I do not remember looking at anybody. You looked right now. Where? If I.. (inaudible) you are transparent. I think I am looking at you. No, you are looking there, your eyes are far away from me. Are you looking at somebody? I am looking at you directly. Now you are, yes. You can look where you like, but I just want to k n o w what you are looking at there at the back. I just do not understand the reference to Wits and the reference to not behaving immaturely... I do not understand it. I do not quite follow. You must explain it to me. (30) I do not understand the question. I/...

68 H a B A S A. I say I still do not understand your reference to - or your saying that he referred to Wits and he referred to not behaving immaturely. I said he said this is not going to be - that was not going to be a demonstration, that is we are not going to have a march, we are just going to go into the hall, the rally be conducted and without interfering with anybody, or the public maybe at Hankweng, go back to our rooms. I think I.. (intervenes) Is that what he said? Well, I said I am not quoting him. Why did you - why didn't they allow you back on the (10) campus for your last year? I do not know the exact act, but what I know that Council is privileged to withhold the reasons of not allowing the student if it deems necessary and that is what they told me when I went and asked. No, but you must have done something. They do not just withhold a third year student's admission like that. You must have done something. I do not know the exact something I did, but if there be anything I did, it is on campus I organised a prayer day for the detainees, not only these, but people who are detained to pray with them from my Christian (20) conviction. W h e n did you organise the prayer day? At the beginning of the year. For these accused before the Court? Not only these, all the.. (intervenes) Yes, for them in the first place. Not for them in the first place, because they were not charged as yet. I organised a prayer day for all the detainees. Why did you do that? Because the Bible says you should remember those in prison. (30) Have you organised a prayer day before or since? We often/...

69 71^6 often pray for people in prison. I'lABASA. Did you ever organise a prayer day before or since? Because - I haven't, because I was not chairman before. Did you ever organise a prayer day afterwards? I attended pray e r days before. Just answer my question please. Did you organise another one? At Turfloop? At anywhere. It depends upon the capacity which one holds. I am holding no office so I cannot go and organise people. (10) Why can't you just tell the Court did you or did you not organise another prayer day? When? At any time. At any time is too open, I would not know exactly when is any time. Did you or did you not? Did you organise in your lifetime only one prayer day or did you organise more than one prayer day? I organised one. Only one. Yes. Then why were you quibbling? Because the question was open, was too open. Now you have said in my whole life, (20) now I can.. (inaudible - witness drops his voice) So it is no longer open when I say in your whole life. As I take it. BY THE C OURT: Was there any indication that this was the reason why they did not accept you back at the university? That is why I said I do not know but those may be.. (inters venes) That is the only thing that you - only reason that you can think of. Which I involved the whole student body as chairman of the SRC and the other thing which I did, I (30) organised the mission week which was attended by all the students/..

70 students, but other reasons I would not know. What would mission week involve?.mission week is when we invite a speaker to come on campus to preach on campus and to allow himself to be asked questions by students. HR REES: Who was the speaker you invited? It was T.S. Farasani. Isn't he the president of BPC or wasn't he the president of BPC? I think he was. Well I want to know, do you think he was or do you know he was? I have known Farasani as a Christian brother (10) long before he became president of the BPC and was invited more than once on campus. W hen did he become president of BPC? I think it was 197^. You think it was 1974? Yes, and we had invited him in 1973 to come and address us on Black theology at the SCM. Didn't you <just now want to create the impression that you did not know that Farasani was the president of the BPC? I do not want to create an impression, but I am trying to look at it the way the Christian brothers of Turfloop (20) took Farasani. To get to the posters. BY THE COURT: Before you deal with that. If you were interested in religion, why were you not interested in Black theology or Christology? I never said I was not interested in.. (intervenes) Well now, were you interested in Black theology and Christology? Yes, I was interested in Black theology. I do not know about Christology, I haven't heard the term yet. A n d how did you show your interest? Well, my (3 ) interest was to know what what is propounded by - what is meant by/...

71 HA B A S A. by Black theology. That was what - because as we go about preaching to the students, some students will say we do not believe what you are saying, we believe in Black theology. So I should at least have an idea of what Black theology is. Do you know the works of Dr Manas Buthelezi? I have not read them. Have you ever heard him speak? I heard him in Johannesburg once. On Black theology? No. What do you understand by Black theology? ïty (10) understanding of Black theology is the interpretation of the Bible by a Black man and removing the myth which has been brought about in the course of time concerning that a Black man has no place in the Bible and that a Black man is in fact inferior to other races. If in fact the affirmation that God does care for a Black man and that he has a place for him in the Scriptures. Firstly, why do you say there is a myth that there is no place for the Black man in the Bible? Because most people have been led to believe that a Black man, according to (20) the Scriptures they claim that he is inferior, actually he ought to be a servant and Black theology has come to interpret that there is not such a thing in the Bible where a Black man is pointed out that he should be a servant all his life and of course there are other theologies which claim that the Black man is a descendant of Ham and of course Black theology when it is propounded it comes to point out that nowhere can we directly point in the genealogical order that here is a Black man and here is his father, Ham. Yes, but now, apart from that reference to Kara (30) what is there in the Bible which supports a myth that the Black/...

72 I-kBASÁ. Black man is a servant? Well, the myth I would not dissociate Ham because he had been the person who most people have believed that it is the ancestor of Black people because somewhere in the Scriptures it says his fortune will be in the south and most people believe that from where the Scriptures was written, that is the Palestine area, does not mean Egypt and so on and that is where Black people are found. So we have found that that can be repeated in the Scriptures. If Egypt falls under the south as you desdribed, the Egyptians were the masters of the Jews for very many (10) years. Yes. Well now why do you say in the Bible - or there are foundations for a myth in the Bible that the Black man is a servant? I did not say this is a real scriptural teaching but that a portion of the Scriptures has been used as to support the myth which came with the people, it is not directly brought about by people. People took just a portion of the Scriptures and said this is what it says about the Black man. Well, even if the Bible says that Ham is the forefather of the Black man, why do you infer from that that the (20) Black man then - the Bible says the Black man is a servant? Because when Ham's father cursed him, he said all his children will be servants. And the other myth that you - what is the other myth that you say? I said there is a myth that a Black man is supposed to be a servant throughout his life and that a Black man because of that is inferior to Whites. Because he is a servant? Yes. MR R E E S: Don't you regard yourself as a servant of God? I do. (30) Doesn't that put you in a superior position than other people/...

73 7160 mabasa. people? It does not because servants of God are not supposed to be masters but servants to the people. Servants to the people. Yes. I do not understand then. Are you objecting to be a servant? What I - I do not - I would not like... (intervenes) BY THE COURT: I think it is getting involved now. I would not like us to dally around the Scriptures. MR REES: Tell me, did you ever find any Justification in the Scriptures for regarding Christ as a revolutionary? (10) In fact I should know the meaning of revolutionary. A violent revolutionary. I do not know about that in the Scriptures. You do not know about it. And what would you say to the claim that Christ participated in a guerilla warfare unit against the Romans? Have you ever heard that? How? If it could be explained to me how, I would be clearer on the question As it is I do not know. Have you ever heard such a claim? I haven't. You do not know about it. No. (20) Who or what is Frelisa or what do you understand by the term Frelisa? Well, I do not have a true understanding of the word Frelisa because I have never heard about (inaudible) of Frelisa except to see it on one or two placard; s How do you interpret it? I think the person who wrote it was trying to be smart to suggest maybe that there is a military wing in South Africa against the government. Yes, but what does Frelisa stand for? I do not even have a.. (intervenes) If you have got Frelimo. I do not even have (30) the full meaning of Frelimo. I only know it to be the Mozambique/...

74 _ ' 1 b 1 MA.BASA. Mozambique government. I cannot say Fre stands for this, li stands for this, mo stands for this. That I do not know. You do not know. Yes. BY THE C O U R T : Why do you associate it with a military wing? Because the little knowledge I have is that Frelimo was a military wing against the government of Mozambique. Was Frelimo a military wing or was it the movement? As I said that the information I had about Frelimo was very scanty. It was in the newspapers. MR REES: ANC had a military wing in the country some (10) time ago, the military wing was called Umkonto We Sizwe, isn't it? I think I was just a little bambino then to really know anything about ANC. Ho, but you heard about it, didn't you? Yes, very scanty knowledge, which I would not like to bring to court. Have you also heard about their military wing, The Spear of the Nation, didn't you? I would not like to say I heard, because I would k n o w nothing if I am asked about it. Did you hear about the Spear of the Nation? Ever hear of the Spear of the Nation? I heard it just like you are (20) asking me and maybe overhearing people speaking of the Spear of the Nation, I haven't really sat down and said no, what do you mean by Spear of the Nation. Spear of the Nation was the military wing of the African National Congress, wasn't it? You told me. I am asking you. I say I do not know anything substantial about the ANC. Did you ever hear it? Yes, I have heard it. You have heard it. When you looked at these posters, you said they did not affect the mood of the company. Y e s.(30) Were you watching the mood of the company? Because there/...

75 they were speaking, just speaking in groups as there was a question asked of this banning of the rally and people saying no, it is not banned and so on. So there was not any concentration on what the placards said, except that people were in a relaxed mood just like any other day. Were you watching the people's mood? Were you concerned to see what their mood was? What do you mean by mood? Maybe I do not understand you. You have been talking about the moord, you introduced the term 'mood', not me. You said in your evidence-in-chief (10) the posters did not affect the mood of the company. Don't you know what the word 'mood' means? Because the question was asked to me did it affect the mood and the way I understand it, I understand the outlook, how people reacted. Now it seems you are not meaning the same meaning. What did you understand by when I asked you whether or not you were concerned to watch the mood of the people? That is why I say maybe if you interpret the word 'mood' for me it will be easier. What do you understand by the word 'mood' as used (20) by me? Mood when it comes to literary poetry, to me mood means if you say what is the author's mood it would mean was he angry, was he emotional, was he happy? Those are the things I would classify under mood. What did you classify under mood when you said the posters did not affect the mood of the company there? There I meant that it did not affect them negatively to make them angry or to make them feeling like let us go and look for guns and kill all Whites. They did not feel like that. How do you know? Because feeling so, they would (30) have said: Ja, now this is the thing we want.

76 T 7163 I'lABASA. And after the arrest of various students, what was their mood then? I said they were upset. Others were angry. i I They were upset? Yes. i II A n d others were angry? Yes. How did they show their anger? By the few stones they i j Ii threw at the police. Well how else? Only by throwing stones? Others were busy flinging their hands that they have no right to baton charge Ishmael Khabele(?), they have no right to leave the dogs bite the people. (10) Yes, what else? I would not remember all the words they said. Why did you say then that their mood, some of them were angry? Already I have cited the two examples to show that the people were angry. Is that all you can say? Concerning what you have asked me, yes. Concerning the events there. No, not concerning the events there. But concerning the question that is that all you can say. (20) Is that all you can say? BY THE COURT: He did say that they were shouting that the people should be released that they had arrested. It is when they saw the SRC coming and our rector and his.. (intervenes) MR REES: Is it only then when they shouted? They said: let them - tell them to release our friends. Is that all they said? They might have said other things which I... (inaudible) Tell me, did the SRC and the rector arrive there at the same time? No, they did not arrive at the same time. (30) Who arrived first? The SRC arrived first. T h e /...

77 " 7164 ' HABASA. The whole lot of them? There were a lot of people. I cannot say the whole lot of them because (intervenes) Which members of the SRC arrived? Or don't you know? I do not want to commit myself but I know that Hangwate, Pat Hangwate, Mr Sedibe, the president was there, and Ilr Sedibe in fact I think was there. So these two people when they arrived, where did they arrive? Just on the southern side opposite the hall where there were police. When they arrived, did they just arrive there... (10) They were going to the police, they went to the police. They went to the police? Yes. So who were the first people then who were at the police, the major? At this moment, it is a long time, I cannot say exactly whether it is Mr Nkondo and Hr Hathivha who were already there, but I know that they too were in the scene when they talked to them. You do not really know what the sequence of events were. Yes, I cannot relate it exactly. When you went into the hall that day, that is the (20) 25th, tell us again exactly what happened. When I went into the hall there were many people in the hall and there were some few seats which were unoccupied, but most of the seats in the hall were occupied and I found a seat directly opposite the table... (inaudible) You were near the front. About 4 rows away from the f ront. Yes, and then? A n d then.. (intervenes) Was anybody on the stage or isn't there a stage? There isn't a stage, there is just a table. (30) Was there anybody behind the table? Hr Sedibe came and stood/...

78 stood behind the table. UJ MA.BASA. Who else? And his vice. I think there were about 3 or 4,- I cannot remember exactly now. But which people do you remember there? I remember t the president of the SRC, Mr Sedibe, his vice and I think Mr Ledwaba, but I am no more sure about him. You think Mr Ledwaba? Yes. Where was Mr Nefolovhodwe? Did he arrive before you or after you? Or don't you know? I do not know when he arrived, but what I know is that lie was almost behind me in my (10) back towards the northern side. Not very far from the door where the police, the major came in. And this woman who spoke, where was she? She was some - I think a row or two before the place where Mr Nefolovhodwe was sitting. Were you looking about the hall? I looked about the hall when they started speaking. When somebody is speaking obviously all the people would turn and draw their attention towards him. BY THE COURT: What makes you think that Mr Ledwaba was (20) near the table? Because he was one of the members of the SRC and he was their secretary. Maybe he had something to write. Well, he says he was not near the table, he was outside. So it is not clear that he was there. That is why I said I am not sure whether he was there. I was just thinking about the possible people who were there while I know that the first person who p a ssed opening remarks was not there. And was this table on a platform or was it in the middle of the hall? It was not in the middle of the hall, (30) it was - in the southern corner of the hall there is a door a n d /...

79 and immediately after that door the table was placed there and there were I think 2 or 3 chairs b e h i n d it. MR REES: Did anybody go and speak to the major at the time when the major arrived or don't you know? I did not see exactly when the major arrived. Well then, I will put the question this way: did you see anybody of the SRC, anybody else, go and talk to the major? I cannot remember. You cannot remember. Ja. BY THE C OURT: Was the major in the door or did he come (10) into the hall? I saw him standing almost right - let me say just inside the door but not right where the students were. There were just some few students who were standing next to the door too. MR R E E S : Was there any upsurge of noise at about the time when he arrived or shortly thereafter? It is usual w hen policemen come to our.. (intervenes) I do not know about what is usual, I want to know on that day was there any upsurge of noise or not? It was not noise, it was just a little unrestlessness. (20) Was there an upsurge of noise or not? BY THE C O U R T : Why do you call it restlessness? What happened? It is when other people want to talk and others would say 'hush', so in that way I would not say it is noise, because others are trying to tell others to keep quiet, others want to talk. So I do not call it much of an upsurge of noise. That is why I said there was the 'hush, hush'. MR R E E S : There was a 'hush hush'. Yes. This was after the major arrived? Yes. Now who are you looking at now? I am looking at (30) you. No/...

80 IiáBASA. No, the Court is not blind, nobody is blind here. You turned your head right away from me now. at? Who were you looking HR SOGGOT?: M'lord, on very rare occasions the witness in fact looks around and I do not see that he has to - that he has any obligation to look at my Learned Friend however attractive he i s. LAUGHTER HR R E E S ; Oh, I misunderstood. Were you looking at the Don Juan on my left? (10) BY THE COURT: Well, he told you he is not looking at anybody particularly. HR REES: Because I suggest to you every time you look that way you get a response. Isn't that so? I do not think I get the response. Haybe you get the response from that. Why do you say that? Because I do not look at anybody, so I am getting no response. So if this be a response, that is when you are trying to make for me looking that side and then you get a response. Right, let us now get back to Hr Sedibe. Tell us (20) everything he said. In the beginning I said I cannot remember everything.. (intervenes) I did not ask you what you can remember, I told you to tell the Court everything that you remember him saying. What I remember him saying is that he is going to say 'Ilachel' and he asked us to respond by saying 'Viva Frelimo'. After the opening remarks which I do not.. (intervenes) I want to know what were the opening remarks? I said I cannot remember them. What was the effect of the opening remarks? It (30) was Just in the spirit of the rally. What/...

81 , MABAoA. What was the spirit of the rally? That of rejoicing with the people of Mozambique. Well tell us. What was there in the spirit of the rally that he said? Or don't you know? 'Machel' and then we responded 'Viva Frelimo'. He repeated it twice and and we gave the same response. Is that all you can tell us? Yes. BY THE COURT: You said three times just now. No, I just said once, and said.. (intervenes) Oh, he said it twice. Yes. (10) MR KEES: Who was the next man to speak? Mr Phandelani Nefolovhodwe. Accused No. 6. What did he say? I said I cannot remember his words exactly, but what he said, if I were understanding what he said, is that the freedom of the people of Mozambique had some - then he actually said, what he said was he explained to us the meaning of the freedom of the people of Mozambique. Well, what did he tell you about the meaning of the freedom or can't you remember'that? What he said I think had (20) something to do that the freedom of the people of Mozambique is giving us people here in South Africa hope that one day we too shall get our freedom. Now let us test your memory a little closer. When His Lordship adjourned the court here, two of the accused made some loud statements here. Did you hear that? Again you heard that there was a lot of hush, hush. From where I am... (intervenes) I am talking about now when His Lordship adjourned this court at one o'clock two of these accused and more (30) particularly Nefolovhodwe and Dr Mokoape made some very loud comments/...

82 MABASA. comments and statements. Did you hear it? I heard part of it because I will not say the whole. What did you hear? That they killed children. Who said that? It must be one of them, I cannot say exactly who said that. Did it appear to you the man was upset? Surely upset is the most correct word. And did you conclude it was the newspaper reports that had upset him? I think it was you who upset him. How do you suggest I had upset him? Because (10) you asked what I thought was irrelevant and very sentimental to ask Black people at this moment. Well, what is it that is sentimental to you at the moment? Because we cannot stand the death of little children when you think even educationally they are not yet independent thinkers. And what about the death of the White and the... never... (inaudible - both speaking simultaneously)... We our t h o u g h t s from that, we feel for them, but we feel that the children... (intervenes) (20) BY THE COURT: I do not think we should go into all this... We feel that the children are too small. MR R E E S : And the point is in consequence of the newspaper reports there was an emotional response, wasn't there? I do not think that has something to do with this case anyway, does it? Was there emotional response? That has got a lot to do with this case. Unless you clarify me in which way, then I can answer that question. BY THE C O U R T: Who attended to the police when the (30) police came to the door at Turfloop? You knew Major Erasmus/...

83 Erasmus or you got to know about him afterwards, did you? I did not come to know him that I can identify him, but they told me that was Ilajor Erasmus. A n d he was the man who was in the doorway. Yes. Now who attended to him when he came there? What I remember is there was that clapping of hands as I have said, and the noise hushed for a moment and Jimmy said 'hey, give him a hearing, he might be bringing freedom' and then we laughed and at that moment then I cannot say exactly how since he appeared to have said - I said he appeared to (10) have said something but we could not hear because others were singing and even the speaker itself was crackling. But I want to know who went up to him to speak to him. Or didn't anybody speak to him? I think here I will just use a discretion that the likely person would be the president since he was the general of the student body, he was the one who k new the student body then. Who was that? Sedibe. Did-he go to the major? I say I did not see him go there, but as you ask me this question the only (20) discretion I can use.. (intervenes) Well, you assume that he would have gone up there? Yes. But now could he have gone up to him from where he was? There are possibilities that he could have. Was it physically possible for him to get to the major? It was not physically possible because he was next to the door. So he would go outside the door, turn around the hall and just be at the door. So the jjossibilities are there, they are not removed. No, well, I am not too clear now what you are (30) saying. Are you saying that it was physically possible for him/...

84 r k BAS A. him to have moved from where he was to the place where the major was? I think it could be done unless he be scared of police as we are. Well assuming that he was not scared, I have asked you as a physical possibility of his getting there. I think there was some possibility. But what about all - wasn't the hall too crowded? The hall was too crowded, but he was next to the door, if he could p u s h his way or ask the students to give him way. What distance did he have to move from where he (10) was to get to the door to speak to the major if he wanted to? I did not h e a r the question. What distance did Sedibe have to move from where he was and where he sort of uttered - the words he uttered that day, to the place where the major was in the doorway? Unless he walks maybe he forces his way through the students that are on the chairs, trying to jump on the chairs in between, the simplest way he would have tried his way through the door and then turn outside, walk outside the hall quite a long way and turn.. (intervenes) (20) He could have gone out and walked round the hall? Yes, but there were some few people in the door who would make it a little bit impossible at that time, but it could be done. Anyway, there is nothing absolute impossible. Yes, that I can see. Now the difficulty is this, you do not appear to have noticed anybody speaking to the major. As I said that during the time he appeared to have said something and a word was given by the SRC members at that time that we move into - we file out silently into the sports ground and there we dispersed. (30) But if there were so many students, how was it possible for/...

85 T 7172 " MABASA. for you to see the major where lie was and what he was doing? I assume you were sitting down. I was sitting down, but when the hush, hush started each and every one of us would j I try just to duck his head and so.. (inaudible) So he could be seen. I notice you use the word hush, hush as being the noise. ies. MR REES: What actually do you mean by hush, hush? Is that people saying... I have already explained it. You will have to explain it again please. I said (10) when people, other people want to talk and other people - I mean others tried to control them, it will be: ha, and then h u s h and then I just give it a simple name of hush, hush. You were going to tell us at one stage what the general attitude of the students are towards the police. The general attitude of students towards the police is that when they see policemen.. (inaudible) we do not feel that they are always coming in friendly terras. whole African community. When police are seen even in the When they see policemen coming to your house, the next time they are going to ask you, (20) what did he want. So there is a general fear of the police. What was the attitude of the students that day towards the police? Others wanted to speak and some told them to keep quiet b y means of hush - I mean., (intervenes) Hush, hush. Ja, you can call it that. So I would say the general attitude of the students that day was not pronounced, you could not say exactly that this is how they arc feeling. Do you regard the police as part of the system? They are the ones who keep the laws made by the parliament and that makes them part of the system. (JO) Part of the system that you abhor. A b hor is not the word/...

86 MABASA. word I used. What is the word you would use? The word I used is that they are maintaining the laws which outrages my human dignity. A n d are you opposed to the maintenance of those laws? I am opposed because they do not give me.. (intervenes) Are you opposed to the maintenance of those laws? Not the maintenance of the laws, because that would be acting against the law. I am not opposed to the maintenance but I am opposed to the laws themselves. You are not opposed to the maintenance. No. (10) But you are opposed to the people who maintain them. That is another way of fear of what you have just said. I am asking you. Anyway, I say you are already answered because you have just re-phrased your sentence in another way and I have had it. Are you trying again to be impertinent or are you trying to answer the question? In fact I am not against the maintenance of the law because that would be a crime against the State, but I am actually against the laws themselves as they stand without anybody next to them. (20) And you are opposed to the policemen because they maintain the law. I never said I am opposed to the policemen. I am asking you. I am not opposed to the policemen, but I feel that their duty - they are maintaining something which does not give all the people equal rights and give them a good shadow under which to live. And you are opposed to those laws. The lav/s I am opposed to them. Like anybody, like the homeland leaders who feel that there is something wrong with the lav/s of South Africa, like.. (intervenes) (30) You are opposed to the policemen. I am not opposed to t h e/...

87 IKlB A S A. the policemen. Are you favourably inclined towards the police? I feel they bring a type of fear to the people. Why do they bring fear to the people? Because they maintain the laws against which I am opposed. What exactly did Sedibe say after - about this person, this is now in the hall? I said the SRC members and most probably Sedibe.. (inaudible).. but I remember that the SRC members said we should file out into the sports field where we shall disperse. (10) Is that all they said? I want you to think carefully now, about what was said. I would not say that is all they said, but that was what sounded important to me and I can remember. You see, you said in your evidence-in-chief that this SRC said you will disperse from the football grounds peacefully Is that correct? Yes, they told us to go to - to move out into the sports field where we shall peacefully disperse. I cannot understand why a man should say where we will disperse peacefully. Because when police are present and there is that fear - when people are fearful you cannot (20) predict exactly what their next step is. Others may Just run away without dispersing peacefully, others may Just nove directly from the hall into their rooms and thus the disruption.. (inaudible) dispersing. What is the difference if people had gone right from the hall into their rooms, wouldn't that have been dispersing? Well, it would not have been unless the word maybe it had been given by the SRC that let us go to-our rooms directly, then it would be all right. Why do you think it was necessary to go to the (yo) football field and disperse there? It was easier for us at that/...

88 MA.BASA. that moment because from the hall there are about 4-5 doors and so.. (intervenes) Did you say 4-5 or 4- to 5? I will explain. There is the door on the.. (intervenes) Can you count them in your mind and you can just tell us how many doors there are. BY THE COURT; He said 4- to 5. M R R E E S: Did you say 4- to 5? That is all I am interested in. I thought I heard you say 4-5. Don't worry, I said that, don't worry. (10) What did you say? I said do not worry, I said 4- to 5» Well, what is the problem with that? If there are 4- to 5 doors? So people would just move to different doors and the SRC would not see what actually the students did when they go out. So from the football ground it would be easier for the SRC to see all the students dispersing peacefully. Are you suggesting that the SRC wanted to keep a control over the students? I think that is what their purpose was so they can be responsible for whatever happens. They should be able to account for each and everything which happened. (20) Why did you think it was necessary for them to account for what happened after the people had left the hall? It was necessary to account for what happened. Suppose other students would just go out to the police vans there, start stoning them, what would the SRC say if they had used a different exit, they would not have seen anything. What makes you suggeáb the students might have gone and stoned the police vans? -- Because I thought always of the exception to the general rule that things can be controlled when the SRC is there and if they.. (witness drops his (30) voice - inaudible). Did/...

89 1 fi " 7176 " I1A.BASA. Did you believe that the SRC had full control of what was happening there that afternoon? I think the SRC had full. control of what was happening until the moment we dispersed ana the police baton charged. You h eard that the major said they were giving these # students 15 minutes or whatever it was, to disperse in the hall? I We were in the - I was 4- seats from where the SRC were so - \ as a result we were the first people to go out of the hall * and if he said it, he said it behind us so I could not hear. ii But after this person had said to the major 'give (10) j i I j him a hearing, perhaps he is bringing our f r e e d o m', did he then speak and address you and said I would give you so many minutes? I explained h o w the atmosphere in the hall, I explained about the major.. (intervenes) I do not want to know what you explained, I want an answer to my question please. I did not hear. You did not hear. Yes. Did you hear the major say anything on the football field? t j I i 18 i I saw him positioned. Did you hear... I did not. (20) 1 You did not hear the major say anything on the football field? No. BY THE COURT: He used a megaphone on the football field. Yes, he was holding a megaphone, but when the megaphone - when you hold a megaphone, megaphones have a way of crackling and squeaking sometimes. They are not very convenient, they are not the best type of loudspeakers. IIR R E E S: Did you think the major was trying to say something? Yes. What did you believe he was trying to say? (50) Because his mouth was moving. What/...

90 liabasa. What did you believe he was trying to say? I waited for the SRC to tell us what he was saying. When the police charged you say you ran away towards y o u r right? I said I ran away towards the west. Yes, I am asking you now did you run towards your right, did you turn towards your right or turn towards y o u r left? It was my right (inaudible) Yes, and did you think the police might catch up with you? As you will see, I had to say that if people are coming b e h i n d you, you have to keep on looking back so that (10) they do not catch up with you or you accelerate more if they put more speed. Did you have any reason to accelerate more? If their dogs are going to be faster I have to try something. No, but did you? I am not wanting to know your prowess in general, I want to know on that day. I ran away, looking back, and I realised that they did not have more interest to the site where I was running so I stopped and watched. And-did you see more then when you stopped and watched than what you saw in the hall? Ilore what? (20) Did you observe more things, because if I get your evidence correctly, you observed very little in the hall. Depending on what little is and the use of the word 'observe' maybe I h e a r d little rather than observe little. When you had your interview w ith your Counsel, did he show you EXHI B I T RALLY D. 5 4? Would you just have a look at it? Yes. Did he show it to you? Yes. And did you and he then go through all the points and all the evidence you were going to give here? Yes. (30) A n d did you tell him that at one stage you were there inside/...

91 inside the penalty area of the soccer field? Yes, he did not ask me the exact spot hut I told him that I was 011 the soccer field. Did you tell him that you were in the penalty area or not? I have just answered that. He did not ask me specifically. Did you tell him that you were in the penalty area? No. That is all. You say after this event most of the students moved towards the hostel. Is that so? Yes. About what time was this or don't you know? I did (10) not look at the time then. Did you look at the time on any occasion that day? Yes, when I went to the hall it was about five to. Five to two? Yes. Did you look at the time on any other occasion that day? From there I did not look at the time. I do not want to go through all these placards with you, but there are a fe\^ I w ould like you to do some explaining. BY THE COURT: Just before we leave the soccer field. The evidence is that No. 7 accused had a drum with him. (20) Did you notice the drum? The what? The drum. I do not understand, I do not know what a drum is. The evidence was that No. 7 bad a drum with him - oh, so sorry, Sedibe. - He had? A drum. A drum that you would use in an orchestra. I said I cannot remember clearly, but there was a drum even in the hall. I cannot remember exactly who was holding the drum then. It was a drum which was left by some students who had come to perform at Turfloop. (30) HR R E E S: Did anybody play on the drum? I later even played/...

92 played.. (intervenes) f TA *p /c 1\ 1la jump A Ho, on that day. Yes, on that day. Did you play on the drum on that day? Yes. When? At what stage? In the evening I was sitting. After all - after everything.. After I came back from town. No, but we are interested in at the stage when the rally at the stage when the police were there. I did not. BY TIIE COURT: But you say you did hear the drum. Yes, I heard the sound of the drum. (10) Yes, but now when was it, when did the person who had the drum, beat on the drum? Was that to attract attention to him or to silence the people or when was the drum used? Can you remember that? I would say it was in the time of dispersing the people because they did not want us to stay on the grounds, we were informed to go to our various hostels. And after that of course we only got well organised when they were negotiating with the police. Well, if he had the drum and you were so close to him as you say, why didn't you see the drum or hear - or see him (20) beat the drum? In the hall they did not beat the drum. So it was only on the soccer field. Yes, or if in the hall it was there, it was not before us. You did not hear it in the hall? I think - I do not think there was drum beat in the hall because the songs that we sung were not so rhythmic as drum beating. I cannot commit myself to that point. On the soccer field was it used for rhythm or was it used for any other purpose? If it was used, I think it was used when we were moving towards the sports field and (30) the normal thing would be for rhythm to make us march to the ground/...

93 ground I L I M S A. What did you hear, what did you see on this occasion? When? When you heard the drum. We later on assembled and then sang the national Anthem and we gave the power salute and we dispersed, the women moving towards the women's residence but they just went outside the hall and - I mean outside the grounds and stopped and watched while the men went towards the terraces and crossing the street. I am interested in the drum. What happened to the (10) drum in the meantime or the drummer? The drummer might have moved, dispersed towards the women because then as I was moving the other side I did not hear. Did you see Sedibe? I saw Sedibe when he came running with his hands up stopping the students from throwing stones. Did you see him before that stage on the soccer field? I saw him in the hall. On the soccer field it was not a direct address because we just converged on one place. We were not - nobody stood before us and said now let the students converge. Did you see the major when you were on the soccer (20) field, Major Erasmus? I think I saw them standing outside the ground. Were there members of the SRC with him? Well, he was standing with.. (intervenes) If you do not remember, say so, but if you do remember well, tell me. I do not exactly remember. How many dogs did you see on the soccer field? Dogs? Yes. I saw two dogs next to where Ilajor Erasmus was standing and there was another dog with a man who was wearing short pants, safari just next to the tree which is (30) on the southern side of Turfloop. S o /...

94 So you saw two in all. Two dogs. I saw three d o g s. This nan who was injured on the sports ground, well, you gave us his nane, Hkabela. Is he the cripple? This is the cripple. Has he got any other nane? He is Ishmael Paganisa Hkabela. Do you know Tsie, a nan by the nane of Tsie? I do not know that nane. T-s-i-. No. Actually it is not him. Do you know Ilanabola? Hanabola, I think ho is (10) fron Rustenburg, I an not sure of... (inaudible) Did you see hin on that day? Yes, the police hit hin too and he was bitten by a dog. Did you see that? W h e n the dog bit hin? Yes. I think he was standing (?) on the terrace and a dog Just.. (inaudible) and later I saw his trouser was torn. Where was this Hkabela struck? Just below the terrace. Just below the terrace? Yes. Where was he going to? lie was - I think he was going to clinb but he was looking towards - he was moving (20) towards the south end - towards the western direction. We have been told that this nan Tsie was walking in the direction of the tuckshop when he was injured on the sports field. Do you know that? Is Tsie Ilanabola? No, Hanabola was the nan who was savaged by the dog. HR SOGGOT: Tsie was Peter Tsie. BY THE COURT: Peter Tsie is the nan's nane, Peter Tsie. concentration for a nonent, I would not say I saw the dogs - I saw Peter Tsie being injured because.. (intervenes) No, it is not alleged that he was injured by a dog. (JO) The nan I was nost concerned with was Ishnael Hkabela who had/...

95 7182 ~ HABASA. had also been my home boy, my Christian brother and my friend and when his leg was amputated(?) I happened to help him carry the books at high school, so I was closely linked with him Well, that I can understand, but you also told us that the people who had left the sports ground and you had turned round to see what was happening and this man who was injured was actually walking across the soccer field towards the tuckshop. As I am saying that people ran and at that moment there were some people but very few on the sports ground. I know that there were people who were injured, but I did (10) not directly see the incident of Tsie. What was the behaviour of the female students? What made them leave the soccer field? They were dispersing, they were moving away from the whole group going towards their residence and I think when they saw police charging and seeing that they were not coming in that direction, they stood and watched. Did they march off in procession or did they just walk in a disorderly group? They were just walking almost in a disorderly group. They were not so organised. A n d did they only w a tch what was happening when (20) they turned round, as you say, when they looked at the police? They were giving remarks as women will always give them when they are scared, like *tshoo(?)' and so on. Is that all? Didn't they shout anything to the police? I mean women are unpredictable. IIo, I assume that but I want to know what you heard. To say exactly what they said as.. (inaudible).. what I know there was a general 'tshoo, a-a-h' and so on. So I cannot say exactly they shouted this word to the police and say this and this. (JO) Well, if you could hear them shout those noises that you made/...

96 HA3ASA. made, you would have heard then shout words if they shouted words. I do not say they did not shout words, but if I say I heard exactly what they said I will be committing myself because I did not hear exactly what they said. Did they try and come back? Very few. Onto the sports ground. A very few indeed and these are some of the women who came closer when the students were demanding the release. How far did they actually get? Some women students I can remember even went to find out if Ishmael was not (10) hurt, but that was a little bit later. I am talking about the time w hen the baton charge started. They did not come very near. Had they by that time left the sports grounds or were they still... They had just, as I said, they had just moved across the sports grounds and there is still an open field, so they stopped and started passing their remarks. When they stopped, were they off the sports ground or still on the sports ground? They were off the ground itself but in an opening, a place which the teachers are usually (20) standing. Some of them of course were in the..(inaudible) And how many would you say came on to the sports ground? Nore or less. I k n o w you did not count them. Say 50 - GO. What distance did they come on to the sports ground? I do not think they even p a s s e d the.. (intervenes) Well, just point out the distance. How far did they - from where they had stopped, how far did they come back? At that moment there is a centre line. I would not make an exact thing that this was so. Ho re or less. I do not thin]: they even crossed (50) that thing until later when they saw that everything had hushed/...

97 - /ia4 - HABASA. hushed down and some of them even came. Did you see anybody, any males trying to stop them from coming back or shouting for that matter? For some time, if I remember well, Ilr Sedibe was busy with them, but he later on ran towards the direction of the stones. A n d did you actually see that? Yes, I did. Because you just now told us that you only saw him lift his - raise his hand there when he stopped the people from throwing stones. I say for a time, I meant to play an active role, I mean the times he played an active role. (10) I want to know when you noticed it, apart from the role that he played. From that moment when I saw, because with the members of the SRC and they v/ere dispersing us, there were some few who were moving with us the same direction and at that moment Hr Sedibe did not seem to be with the male students and I saw him running from that direction. So it goes to show that he was controlling the women the other side. Why do you say he did not seem to be with the males if - surely if there were a thousand male students as you soy, you would not miss Hr Sedibe amongst them. What raado me (20) to miss Mr Sedibe amongst them is that when he moved towards the major he was raising his hand to stop and obviously he was not coming from the - he was running almost behind them. Trying to stop what? To stop them from throwing stones. But that was I assume where they were throwing the stones and that was right off the soccer field. II'Lord? That was right off the sports ground when he stopped them. When he stopped them, yes, he went running towards the.. (inaudible) How far was he from them when he put his hands up? (JO) Just more or less. You can point it out here. I would say he/...

98 I LIB AS A. he was across the street, that is just an estimation. T h e n he was up the terrace already? Yes. A n d approaching the road? Yes. Wou]d that be correct? I think that would be correct. But then you did not see him on the sports ground. On the sports ground when we dispersed, I did not see exactly \\rhere he went but I saw him running then. How if he was holding a drum, he would not be able to put up both his hands, would he? Or did you see him leave the drum anywhere? You told me that he was holding the (10) drum, I did not directly see the drum. I only said I heard it. But he says he had the drum. Yes, that time when he was holding it, I did not see it and I do not know where he left it Because the possibility of that, when he sees that there was a problem he could leave the drum down and start r u n n i n g. PIR KEES: Was Sedibe or were the women to the south or the north of the police at the time when the stone throwing occurred? Very few - there were some few women. I am talking about the bulk of the women. The bulk of the women were in the north. (20) And the students were - the bulk of the students were south of the police, weren't they? The bulk - I said there was almost a three division of the.. (inaudible) those who ran towards the.. (intervenes) I do not want to know all that. I just want to know the bulk of the students were to the south of the police and some of them were slightly to the west. Is that right? Yes. ilow Sedibe would therefore hove to pass the police if he had come running from the women, wouldn't he? Yes, but the police purs u e d in the direction, so he posses the (30) police actually after they have almost - after baton charging they/...

99 / i O D T.T.» Y> \C* h lui-bikoa» they sort of cleared from the grounds, so they would just have to cross and move in that direction and there would he less danger. I just want tc know. Did he have to co.io then virtually past the place v^here the police had been? I would not say exactly where they had been, because as I have said, they failed to pursue us to the direction of the post office. Go just almost in the same direction in which the police moved rather and where they had been. You mean Sedibe had to move in the same direction (10) as the police? Yes. So he had to pass by the police. The police did not, for instance.. (intervenes) I just want to know whether or not Sedibe had to pass by the police when he had his hands lifted up like this towards the students. I think where he was standing there were no policemen. How far did he pass from the police? Just a short distancei How short? 3 yards, 20 yards, 50 yards? It might (20) not have been 20, it might not have been 10 yards. It may have been less than that. Less than that. Yes. How did the SRC disperse you men? They told us to go to our hostels. Who said that? I think it was members of.. (intervenes) Who? There were many of them, I could not say exactly this, I think it might have been Hangwate. What did he say - he or they say? They told us that after the National Anthem please disperse to your rooms. (30) Did they say after the National Anthem 'please disperse', or/...

100 or was it after the ITational Anth e m that they said 'disperse1? I mean they said immediately after we had sung that song, then they had already said if after finishing this, Just go to your rooms. Did they say this loudly for everybody to hear? Some were moving around the crowd saying 'just disperse'. Loudly or not? I?or everybody to hear, for the police also to hear? I do not think it would be loud enough for everybody to hear in such a big group, but they were trying to reach everybody by moving around saying, chops, disperse. (10) Was it loud enough for the police to hear? The police were over the terrace, I do not know whether they heard, but some of them who have v ery good ears, might have heard. BY THE COURT: When were the teargas bombs thrown? The tear bombs gas was shot when students were throwing the stones towards the direction of HM. But of course at the time there were very few students except Mr Ilkabela who remained lying down across - I mean in the sports field. Do you say that it was only when the stones were thrown that the teargas bombs were exploded? But it was (20) thrown mostly towards the direction where the stones came from. And Sedibe was really running towards the students who were throwing the stones and they we re actually throwing the stones in his direction, because he was coming from the police. Stones were thrown, I have indicated earlier on that the area have very few stones and this of course we made - we proved this to the Snyman Commission. There are very few stones on that piece. There are some stones, but there are very few. So the stones they did not last very long. HR REES: What did you prove to the S n y m a n Commission? (30) That there are very few stones in the area. Did/...

101 Did you set out to prove that to the Snyraan Commission? ITo, at the time when the Court adjourned and they went to look at the area. You, did you... I was with the students, part of the students. And was this part of what you we re trying to prove to the Snyman Commission? Pardon? Was this part of what you wanted to prove to the Snyraan Commission? ITo, it is when there was debate that a lot of stones were thrown at the police and we said there (10) were not - there is a lawn in that area and the university authorities have made it very clean for us because we play soccer there so there cannot be stones there. I mean the university would be irresponsible if stones are found where students are supposed to spend their time playing soccer. Yes, you are now generalising. What I am interested in, I put it to you I went through that campus afterwards and there are a lot of stones lying about there. Hot in that area. But-there are a lot of stones lying in the vicinity of... It is a question of a lot. If for instance there are (20) 5 stones, there would be a lot. A lot it is a concept to me, I would not understand exactly what you mean by a lot, how many stones are a lot? Didn't you say just now there were not many stones? Because I have got ray definition of many what I mean is stones were thrown but they soon stopped because they did not find any stones to throw. How do you know? I do not see the reason that they should - the police kept on charging, how they could stop if there were more stones, but they stopped. (30) Did you and the students prepare a case for the Snyman C o m m is s io n /...

102 IIABASA. Commission? We did not. You did not? What do you mean prepare? I am asking you. I mean what do you mean by the word 'prepare'? Well, what does the word 'prepare' mean? I mean to me it means that when we heard that the Commission was coming, maybe to prepare the case means that each and every one of us can go and pick up a stone and throw it away from the campus. Did you do that? We did not. Right. So you did not have a problem with that (10) portion of the question, did you? So if preparations means that then we did not. Did you prepare a case for the Snyman Commission? We did not - we prepared a case with our legal advisers, but it was not.. (inaudible) Who was y o u r legal adviser? Ayob, Hr Ayob. Ayob and who else? That is the man w h o..(inaudible) Who else did you prepare the case with? What other legal advisers? The other legal adviser was representing BASA and that was Hr Ishraael. (20) Hr Ishmael. Yes. Yes, well, what was the case that the students wanted to present? The students wanted to present a case that the students were peaceful until the police baton charged them. What else was the case the students wanted to present? They wanted to present that the rally was lav/ful. What else did they want to present? They wanted to present that actually the police in baton charging the students when dispersing, was unwarranted. And what else did they want to present? Those are (30) the main points. T h o s e /...

103 Those are the main points ~ I LISAS A. LY THE C OURT: In what capacity did you attend the Snyman Commission? Pardon? In what capacity were you at the hearing? I was just part of the student body, just as a student. Did you volunteer or were you elected to go? Several students were inter - were consulted by the legal advisers. HR B E E S : Mr Ayob? By Hr Ayob. And Hr Ishmael. Ilr Ishmael interviewed - mean just. (intervenes) (speaking simultaneously) (10) BY THE COURT:... the academic staff. Yes. And so they were calling everybody who was quite willing to talk to them. I too went. You volunteered when they were looking for students who could throw light on the matter. Yes, I volunteered, but I did not give evidence. HR R E E S : And did you there also go through the placards? The day they went through the placards, I was writing, so I was not in court. Did you go through the placards with this legal (20) adviser? At that moment with the legal adviser he asked us what we saw and the people he had intensive consultation with it was not.. (intervenes) I am asking you whether you went through this document with the legal adviser. I did not. How do you know he had intensive consultations with another man? Because that is the man who gave.. (intervenes) How do you know that this legal adviser had intensive consultations with him? Because he called him aside and after he had spoken with us in the hall, he called him (30) aside in the SRC chambers and they came out after some time. What/... e

104 IIA B A S A. What did he tell you Generally in the hall, this legal adviser? It was not much of.. (intervenes) I want to know what he told, I dc not want to know the quantity. lie asked us what happened. I want to k n o w what he told you. BY THE C OURT: Did he tell you anything? He did not tell us, he was asking us. He was looking for information? He was looking for information. H R R E E S: What information did he want from you? (10) About the rally and its legality; why we people who claim that we are not members of SASO, attended and when did the police come and h o w did we feel when the police came at the hall. to say But I understood you/just now that you were making the case for the students. Can you tell the Court what the students' c'jse was? Can you just explain that? Pardon? You said you were presenting the students' case. I said I was one of the volunteers who.. (inaudible).. He said he wanted many students to speak with, consult with and find out. I was one of the students who went and as a result (20) we were the interested - we were much of the interested party that if.. (inaudible) to give evidence, we would have given evidence. I would like you to look at these pamphlets. Oh, yes, I was asking about the pamplhets just now. Did you go through these pamphlets with Hr Ayob? BY THE C O U R T: Placards. With Hr Ayob we did not. HR REES: These photographs. Did you go through it with anybody else? W i t h Hr Soggot. Was that the first time you went through them? (30) Yes. Have/...

105 MABASA. Have a look at EXHIBIT RALLY B. 9. It reads: "The dignity of the Black man has been restored in Mozambique and so shall it be here." What would you say what was your impression of that? I was not asked on it, but my impression of this one is a type of optimism. The person who wrote this is optimistic that even here in South Africa the Black man will one day be equal to all men. Why is the reference then to Mozambique, the (10) dignity has been restored in Mozambique. The reason why Mozambique here is referred to, to my mind it means that in Mozambique they were almost in our same situation but with attaining their freedom now it is different, they have achieved their dignity because no man can look at them now as servants and so on. You say EXHIBIT B. 1 0 : "White man it is time to proceed to India as you promised. Get going." You said that is childish. To my mind it is very (20) childish. Why do you say that? I say it is childish because that person has read a historical event that the White people were sent by the Dutch East India Company. Yes, but now look, that is the history, but here he is saying it is time you proceeded. Yes, he says it is time. Even exhortation to the Whites to get moving, isn't it? To India. To India. What do they want in India? That is why I say it is childish. White people in South Africa are ($0) not from India. But/...

106 T 7,93 M A B A S A. But this man is saying the Whites must get out of the country, isn't that what he is saying? What makes it childish is that he refers to India. If he had said: White man go back to Holland, that would be another thing, but if you speak about India, I think it is just really a funny sense of humour. A funny sense of humour. Yes. Humour is - get out of this country. I do not say - there is humour in saying get out of this country and go to j I India. ITobody in India knows anything about the White (10) man in South Africa. So long as you chase them out here you are happy, aren't you? Who? You. Isn't that so? N o body wants to chase the White \ man out of this country. What did you say about the Whites being chased out of Mozambique? I said Whites were not chased out of Mozambique. How do you know? Are there any Whites left there? Do you believe there are any Whites left there? I would not - I do not know the statistics of White people in Mozambique.(20) Do you believe there are any Whites left there? Yes. How many do you believe are left there? I do not know f I I I j i the statistics, so I am not going to., (intervenes) What proportion do you believe are left there? I do not know. Do you believe a large number have left? I do not think I have to answer that. Do you believe a large number of people have left Mozambique? Maybe may be the right number, I am not sure. (30) Yes. Have left but they were... (intervenes) Why/...

107 T " MABASA. Why did they leave? It means some of them are afraid to be ruled by Blacks after an experience of being ruled by Whites and this developed with years and then comes to know that such and such a person cannot rule me. Such and such a person cannot rule me. Yes. Don't you believe that that is the attitude of the Whites in this country? I haven't met it because there are outspoken men like Beyers Naude who feels that.. (intervenes) Who is Beyers Naude? Of the Christian Institute. What is the Christian Institute? Well, I do not (10) ] k n o w much about it, I read about it in the papers. I do not think you can quote without being able to tell what it is. No. What is the Christian Institute? As much as you quoted what students do in Soweto I think I am free to quote... (intervenes) What is the Christian Institute? I cannot give a definition because I.. (intervenes)... Mr Beyers Naude of the Christian Institute said something. Yes. (20) What did he say? He has several times in the press stated that in South Africa Blacks should be given a say or should rule ultimately and this again last year it was pointed out by Reeves(?) of South African Cultural.. (inaudible) Who is he? I do not even know actually who he is, but I know that he is a White man who is not afraid to be ruled by Blacks. So you have quoted two. Now, I am asking you whether you believe that the bulk of the White people here are prepared to be ruled b y the Blacks. It is a serious question. (30) I believe there are those who fear it but there are those who/...

108 who feel that so long as they be treated as human beings, there is nothing wrong. How large a number do you believe fear this? What percentage? The fear is in say 60^1, still the majority. BY THE C OURT: If you look at this RALLY B. 1 0, doesn't that mean that the White man is here only temporarily and he must move on? It means that.. (intervenes - speaking simultaneously)... refers to colonialism. It means that, but I think it is a misinterpretation of history. You take the (10) halfway station and forget when Whites came to settle in South Africa. So the whole thing is.. (intervenes) No, I am not referring to the merits of it. I am just trying to find out what this man is saying. The impression it had on me is that it was childish and in times - we know that in times like this we can no longer extricate the White man from this country and say he should go. We need him as much as he needs us. That may be so, but on this placard, isn't the writer saying that you are a colonist here and you must move (20) on, or you came here for a temporary stay and you must move on? The childish thought may be just like that, but it still remains very childish. HR R E E S: Yes, and what about RALLY B. 1 3? Which one? Isn't that to the same effect? "Frelimo made them run. Frelisa will drown them. Cowards run." I said firstly, I do not k now of any point where it has been I mean where it has been made aware that Frelimo said to White people: please go away. I am not aware of this. (30) So when this says: Frelimo made them run, I think here... (intervenes)/...

109 IíííBASA. (intervenes) Didn't they run in consequence of Frelimo...? But I do not think they were made by Frelimo to run. Didn't they run in consequence of Frelimo's arising? It was a matter of their conscience. Oh, yes, but they ran in consequence of Frelimo. And don't you think other people will run in consequence of their conscience? I feel that Whites of South Africa have so much learned to live with us, we work for them, we do everything for them, they cannot run. (10) BY THE COURT: That may be so, actually we are only asking you what this really can convey, what it is capable of conveying. I felt people who.. (inaudible).. to the majority of Black people when people start writing such slogans we start suspecting them because Black people do not speak like that. You say this sort of thing has no effect on a Black man? It does not have an effect. It is the type of thing we - it is like when somebody else has written.. (inaudible) as you find as there are.. ( inaudible).. somebody writes 'kick the boer' and so on. Nobody after seeing that when he (20) arrives in town, kicks the boer. LAUGHTER You are referring to graffito now, people who write on walls. I think it is the same impression this was on the wall and nobody said now or we did not - nobody went and said Whites, n o w run away. MR R E E S: Didn't they that afternoon assault the Whites... I did not see that as I said. Did they or did they not assault the Whites on your campus? It would be hearsay for me to say that. (30) Oh, it would be. Are you not even aware of that? I am aware/...

110 HtiBASA. aware that they stopped even Black lecturers and..(intervenes) Are you aware of the fact that Whites were assaulted? I heard about it. You heard about it. And I was even told that almost the same things happened to Blacks. Which Blacks were assaulted there? I think they stopped a car.. (intervenes) Which Blacks were assaulted? They were not assaulted. No Blacks were assaulted. As far as I know. BY THE C O U R T: Whose car did they stop? I think (10) I am not sure, but I think even Nr Nkondo came and he had-to give the p ower salute and they allowed him to pass. THE COURT ADJOURNS.