Vanderburgh County Board of Commissioners November 9, 1998

Transcription

1 Board of Commissioners The Board of Commissioners met in session this 9th day of November at 5:32 p.m. in the Commissioners Hearing Room of the Civic Center Complex with President Bettye Lou Jerrel presiding. Introductions and Pledge of Allegiance President Jerrel: I d like to call the Board of Commissioners November 9th meeting to order. The first item on the agenda, I d like introduce to you those of us up in the front of the room. On my right is Tony Greubel, our Administrative Assistant; next to him is Joe Harrison, Jr., our County Attorney; Pat Tuley, County Commissioner, is next to me; and on my far left is Charlene Timmons, the Recording Secretary; Suzanne Crouch, County Auditor; Richard Mourdock, County Commissioner; and my name is Bettye Lou Jerrel and I would like to ask you now to join me in the Pledge of Allegiance. Approval of minutes President Jerrel: Thank you very much. The first item on our agenda is the approval of the minutes of the October 26th meeting. Is there a motion? Commissioner Mourdock: So moved. Commissioner Tuley: Second. President Jerrel: So ordered. Bill Cottun - SCT Amendment 6 President Jerrel: The next item on the agenda is the approval of Amendment 6. That s our contract with SCT and Bill Cottun is here. Bill Cottun: Thank you very much. I m Bill Cottun with SCT. We have before you our Amendment 6. The city and the county have requested that SCT provide services to support the Fire Department, the Water Department and also the additional users that are coming on or I should say the additional PC s that are coming on with the Court s project. We made a proposal and it was accepted to add on two additional what we call FTE s, or full-time employment positions. One is for a network administrator. Specifically that person will work mostly with the Fire Department and/or the Fire One application. He will also assist the Fire Department in networking their 15 fire stations to a central network sometime next year and the system development. The desktop support person will provide half of his time with the Water Utility and half of his time with the Court s project. In case the Water Utility is fully privatized and that position is not needed to support the Water Utility it would be used to support public safety. President Jerrel: The only other change in the original contract is that we did reduce the cost of living to the actual. Bill Cottun: Yes, ma am. I don t know if I ll ever get that past you. President Jerrel: No.

2 Page 2 Bill Cottun: We did request a three percent annual cost of living. We agreed to reduce that to whatever the actual cost of living is each year instead of a minimum of three percent. President Jerrel: And the total cost to us in terms of the employees will be one half of an individual. Bill Cottun: That is correct, yes, ma am. President Jerrel: Okay, the PC person. Are there any other questions? Is there a motion? Commissioner Mourdock: I ll move approval of Amendment 6 to the SCT contract as submitted. Commissioner Tuley: Second. President Jerrel: So ordered. Thank you very much, Bill. Bill Cottun: Thank you very much. Jerry Bryan - Award of annual price agreements President Jerrel: The next item on the agenda is the Purchasing Department and I would like to introduce to you Jerry Bryan. Jerry is the new Purchasing Director. I ve known him and his family all of my life and we welcome you. You know the day that you walked in the other office I thought you were here on some other kind of business. That went right over my head. Jerry Bryan: You were one of my...my dad is a dentist here in Evansville and you were one of his-- President Jerrel: Patients. Jerry Bryan: --patients. President Jerrel: Well, he was a nice...they re both wonderful guys. Jerry Bryan: Thank you. President Jerrel: We welcome you and Jerry brings to this some 30 years of experience in purchasing, so we re very fortunate to have him and he has some items on the agenda for us. Jerry Bryan: How do I present these? Do you just want me to go through them or...? President Jerrel: Well, usually you might take them by numbers. For instance, the first one APA We have copies up here. You might just want to comment on the low ones-- Jerry Bryan: Sure. President Jerrel: --and who you recommend.

3 Page 3 Jerry Bryan: Okay, we ve gone through this bid tabulation. I will say there were quite a few people who did not bid on it. We found the First Avenue Car Wash & Detailing Center was the low bidder and that is who we would recommend. President Jerrel: There are the...oh, you ve got them? Commissioner Tuley: Yeah, I ve got them. President Jerrel: Okay. Is there a motion regarding that? Commissioner Mourdock: I ll move approval as submitted. Commissioner Tuley: Second. President Jerrel: And I ll say so ordered. Jerry Bryan: The second one I would like you to consider would be APA002-99, to Mulzer Crushed Stone. As you see on the second page there were no bids received from quite a few people. IMI, Irving Materials, but they do not supply crushed stone so we recommend Mulzer. President Jerrel: Is there a motion? Commissioner Mourdock: I ll move-- Commissioner Tuley: So-- Commissioner Mourdock: --approval as submitted. Commissioner Tuley: Second. President Jerrel: Okay, sand and gravel. Jerry Bryan: Sand and gravel, okay. Here again, Mulzer was the outstanding bidder and we bid quite a few people and, again, IMI did not bid because they did not supply sand and gravel, so we recommend Mulzer. President Jerrel: Is there a motion? Commissioner Mourdock: So moved. Commissioner Tuley: Second. President Jerrel: So ordered. Jerry Bryan: The last one to be considered is Evansville Battery. We bid them against Holderfield Battery and as it said on the last page the low bidder was $18,000, a little over that, and the bid is awarded to Evansville Battery with a two percent discount at $17,702 so that is how we got that. President Jerrel: You re recommending-- Commissioner Tuley: Evansville Battery.

4 Page 4 President Jerrel: --Evansville Battery? Commissioner Mourdock: I ll move approval of APA for batteries. Commissioner Tuley: Second. President Jerrel: So ordered. Thank you very much. Jerry Bryan: Thank you. I m looking forward to working with the Board. President Jerrel: Thank you. Joe Harrison, Jr.: Jerry, I sent you a letter today regarding a surfacing materials bid that needs to be sent out within the next couple of weeks and I sent you a letter on that. After you get that just give me a call if you have any questions. Jerry Bryan: Okay, there are a couple of other things I wanted to go over with you. Joe Harrison, Jr.: Okay, thank you. First reading Ordinance amending the Building Code President Jerrel: The next item on the agenda is the first reading for the ordinance amending the Building Code. Roger Lehman: We have basically two items, the Building Code amendments and also the County Home Inspector Licensing ordinance. I believe you all have a copy of that and hopefully have reviewed it. I d be happy to go through it item by item. I would be happy to summarize it or I would be happy to do anything the Commissioners desire relative to presenting it. President Jerrel: Very quickly could you share with us what sort of research went into this licensing process? Commissioner Tuley: Which one are we going to talk about first? Commissioner Mourdock: Let s do the ordinance. That s the one that makes most sense. President Jerrel: Okay, the ordinance first. Roger Lehman: You want to talk about the building code? Are you talking about the professional licensing? President Jerrel: Well, I was talking about the professional licensing, but let s do them in order instead. Roger Lehman: If I could just maybe do a quick summary. Several things in the building code changes were not exactly editorial but they were things that were deemed necessary by either the way we actually performed operations or by the way the state reviewed or the federal government reviewed the way we did operations. I m referring to Section 1...I m sorry, Section 2 which is the state building rules and regulations. We

5 Page 5 did things a little bit differently in our previous ordinance from the way the state law is so we changed that and made ours in agreement with that. Section 3 was the same. We had an existing code dealing with electrical services, but the state didn t approve of the way it written so we rewrote it so they would approve it. It basically says the same thing only it s worded differently, I guess you would say. President Jerrel: Right. Roger Lehman: The other things, temporary use of electric and gas and limited licensing and fences and a lot of these other things are really editorial in nature. Security fences we added a description on razor wire because the old ordinance only address barbed wire. Basically, razor wire was unregulated, so we added a regulation for that. We added some tightening of the site requirements on submittals for building permits again in response to review by the federal and state government on flooding and we recently have had a CRS review. The gentleman that was here reviewed all of our ordinances and has said that we now probably have one of the more restrictive ordinances from their standpoint which is good relative to floodplains in other places, so that part is good. The general context of the changes is in licensing and it creates a subcontractor license category. The current ordinance requires that everyone working on a job must either be an employee of the permit holder or hold a license and there were a vast majority of the people that were doing subcontract type of work for buildings that were neither an employee of the permit holder nor licensed of their own, so we created these licensing categories to help stop that problem of illegal working because technically these folks were all in violation. Now there has been several questions. We did have hearings at the City Council on this. I think we got most of the issues clarified in City Council. One of the primary things to remember though is if someone has a current license in the residential contractor end or the building contracting end they don t need most of these. There are a few exceptions to that, swimming pools, underground tanks and elevator and escalators. In other words, if you had residential building contractor license you don t need brick and masonry if your employees are doing the work. You don t need the framing if your employee is doing the work, you don t need all these others. However, the people doing that seldom were licensed and almost never were employees of the permit holder, so now we provide a method of getting these people licensed and can grandfather in without taking the test until July of next year by providing proof of previous business of three years and having three letters of reference of people they have done work for and providing the required insurance bonding. So that is kind of taking care of it. We ve had our continuing education classes this year already and people who obtain subcontractor licenses will be required to go to continuing education three hours per year per license as we go on. Are there any questions? Commissioner Tuley: Yeah, there are some questions in this particular area. Roger Lehman: Okay. Commissioner Tuley: I know there are some people in the audience that may or may not wish to talk about it. What is the magic about July of next year in terms of testing? Roger Lehman: When we proposed this we proposed the grandfathering period close at the end of the year because we wanted to get the grandfathering behind us because it tends to haunt you over the years. City Council amended our proposal to say July 1st of `99 so that is the end of the grandfather period. After July 1st of `99, even if you have been in business and can provide letters of reference, you would not be eligible to obtain a license without taking the test. After July 1st you have to take a test to get a

6 Page 6 license. Commissioner Tuley: State...state designed and administered or who is going to give the test? Roger Lehman: We give the test through our subcontractor, PTI. Block & Associates is the location of-- Commissioner Tuley: Out there on St. Joe or wherever? Roger Lehman: Right, PTI out on St. Joe is the one that administers the test for us. Commissioner Tuley: Roger, and the reason I m asking the question is because I spent three hours getting my ears peeled back last Thursday night by some contractors here in town. Roger Lehman: Been there done that. Commissioner Tuley: Yeah. Except you could probably answer the questions. Roger Lehman: Yeah, right. Commissioner Tuley: I don t mean it negatively. I mean, they had some concerns and they called me so I met with them and it was, it was a three hour meeting and that s what we went over. Some of the concerns, and hopefully they won t feel like they can t get up and speak for themselves, but I want to go back over it. They have a general contractor license... Roger Lehman: Right, they have a residential contractor license they can perform all these activities except for the ones I named on houses. If they have a building contractor license they can perform all these activities-- Commissioner Tuley: Let s just cut...okay, let s go back. Roger Lehman: --on commercial ones. Commissioner Tuley: If I m a pool builder what license do I have to have? Roger Lehman: A swimming pool builder? Commissioner Tuley: Yeah, in ground, above ground. Roger Lehman: Prior to this ordinance you had to have a residential contractor license to build residential pools and a building contractor license to build commercial pools. Under this ordinance there is a limited and unlimited swimming pool license. The limited for above ground only and unlimited for all swimming pools in ground and above ground. If you had a building contractor license or a residential contractor license prior to this ordinance we would transfer that name to a swimming pool contractor if they wanted to do that. Commissioner Tuley: Okay, and what other license-- Roger Lehman: You still can build swimming pools...or is that one I said you couldn t do?

7 Page 7 Commissioner Tuley: I think that is one of the ones you said you couldn t do. Roger Lehman: Yeah, let me rephrase that. If you have been doing that in the past under one of those license you could continue to do that, but anyone coming in new would have to have that specific license to do it. We wouldn t-- Commissioner Tuley: Okay, so when I take my test next July 1 what do I take? I take the general...if I have residential-- Joe Harrison, Jr.: No, it s grandfathered. Roger Lehman: No, you don t need the test. Commissioner Tuley: I don t have to test at all? Joe Harrison, Jr.: No. Roger Lehman: No, no. Commissioner Tuley: What about the continuing ed because that was a concern, too? The three hours per license per year. Scheduling, where is the money going, what does this amount do in terms of this three hours of continuing ed? I mean, is it...and where is it required by? Is it just by us? Is there somewhere in the state that says we ought to be doing this? Roger Lehman: No, the ordinance...and actually this was a reaction to when we made our original license proposals back in 1993 to the City Council. The City Council was inclined to have everybody test within two years that wanted their license whether they had one before or not. They were going to say, okay, if you re doing this business in Evansville at this time building houses on this they said that within two years in order to get this residential contractor license you would have to take the residential contractor license s test, okay, even if (inaudible). I suggested that the better way would be to provide educational opportunities for the contractors where they could receive, hopefully, information on code upgrades and all that. Actually this was a compromise or fall back position from everybody having to take the test, period, within two years. They said, okay, if you re going to have continuing education requirements every year that would be to us equivalent to taking a test. Commissioner Tuley: Okay, but is that...there is nothing in the state that requires them to take this continuing ed? I mean, this is just part of this ordinance? Roger Lehman: No, the local ordinance says that the License Board for each trade has the authority to issue the requirements for the continuing education, the amount of time and the content. Commissioner Tuley: Is there a cost associated with taking the continuing ed? Roger Lehman: It is usually $30. This year it was $30. It has ranged...when we first started we charged $10 and did it all in-house and we just about went bankrupt, and then the next year we charged $20 and had PTI do part of what we did. The third year we had PTI do it all and they charged, I think, $30. And then last year they had a thing where you went for one day and you could go for...i can t remember, $30 or two days for $40 and they offered two different classes or two day classes last year. This year it was $30 for however many days you went or how many courses you took. You could

8 Page 8 take a course every hour for three days for $30. Right now, the total cost of continuing ed is $30. Commissioner Tuley: And that money all goes to PTI or whoever you said? Roger Lehman: Yeah, that offsets all the costs of the thing. The city does not get that money. Commissioner Tuley: Okay, the thing I asked the other day with licensing and checking on people and having cars that are supposed to be marked so we have the license-- Roger Lehman: Right. Commissioner Tuley: --are you going to have enough staff to-- Roger Lehman: Well, you never have enough staff to do the job perfectly. We have...you know, and I am in a Catch-22 position. If I say, no, I don t have enough staff then, you know, we have to do certain things and if I say, yes, we have enough people are looking to see how we can get rid of one of them. The bottom line is we don t have enough staff, however, with what we ve got we do a relatively good job of monitoring this. We do not have staff to go around looking for problems. They don t drive around town looking for people who are unlicensed, looking for jobs (inaudible). The only time you catch them basically is if we re going from Job A to Job B and somebody is doing something wrong in between and we catch them or if somebody calls and complains and we do check out all the complaints. Commissioner Tuley: Okay, and I don t mean to...i understand, as the attorney just reminded me, this is the first reading so there will be a public hearing, but I did have a few people who came up here to hear us tonight and that s the only reason. I just didn t want to pass it on first reading and say we ll get to all these questions in the public hearing. Roger Lehman: We had discussions with the Homebuilders. I went to their organization, once to their Executive Board and once to the membership at large. We met with the Association of General Contractors. We ve had input...this has been going on for about four years, this licensing...ever since the other one in When we instituted that licensing process we knew there were going to be things we had to do in the future, so this has been going on about four years. President Jerrel: Is it appropriate...do any of you have questions that have not been asked? Unidentified: Yes, I believe I do. Can I ask them? President Jerrel: Do you want to come up to the mike and give your name? We will have a public hearing. This is a first reading tonight, but if you want to ask that might just help. Joe Harrison, Jr.: State your name. Unidentified: First of all, I think Roger has got a good idea. Commissioner Tuley: We got...joe, state your name for the record if you would.

9 Page 9 Joe Schenk: Joe Schenk. Commissioner Tuley: And where do you live? Joe Schenk: Evansville. I have Schenk Construction Company. My problem is there is probably five or six problems. Roger has a good idea, license everybody, that s fine. Keep track of what they re doing, that s fine. My problem is you re sending people down to continuing education, I don t have to go. I own a company, I own a license, I don t have to go. I can send an employee, a moron, down there, a representative of my company. Roger Lehman: No, you can t. Joe Schenk: Then why is it being done? Roger Lehman: It is not being done to my knowledge. The one person that we were aware of that did that this year has been caught. Now, I m not saying that it is impossible to do. We ve got 2,000 people going through there. Until we get a key card or some kind of, you know, we don t check license, drivers license or so on. Joe Schenk: I would suggest you start doing that. Roger Lehman: Well, we ll look at that. Joe Schenk: You have too many people going down and representing Industrial Contractors. Is the president of Industrial Contractors going through your school? Roger Lehman: He doesn t have a license. Joe Schenk: Then how is he working? Roger Lehman: Because he has employees that have licenses and his employee s license cover the company. Joe Schenk: I understand that, okay. My other thought is you re basically pulling $30 per contractor per license to go to continuing ed. Roger Lehman: Well, this year it is only $30 per contractor because it doesn t matter how many licenses you ve got. Joe Schenk: So roughly you re talking you re bringing in $100,000. Commissioner Mourdock: But wait a minute, let s clear that up. In the future is Mr. Schenk right? Forget this year for a minute. Roger Lehman: Okay. Commissioner Mourdock: In the future each license someone has you said they have to have three hours of CEU? Roger Lehman: Correct. Commissioner Mourdock: And at that point for each license they ll pay $30 for that?

10 Page 10 Roger Lehman: No, no. The $30, and this is the first year and I believe it will continue that way, the $30 covers all continuing education classes offered, so you can take 10, 12, 15 to 25 hours, however many hours you can get in, for the $30. Commissioner Mourdock: Okay, that s this year. Roger Lehman: There is between 2,000 and 3,000 contractors, I don t have an exact count on that, so we re talking between-- Joe Schenk: That s $100,000. Roger Lehman: Well, $60,000 or $70,000. Joe Schenk: Give or take. Commissioner Mourdock: But, again, that is this year. Roger Lehman: Yes. Joe Schenk: Would that not be-- Commissioner Mourdock: Just a second, Mr. Schenk. Five years from now if this happens how will it be done, Roger? Roger Lehman: Until, you know, we have a cooperative agreement or contract with PTI and until we agree to change it it will stay that way. Commissioner Mourdock: Okay. Joe Schenk: Other than one class that I sat through in the four years I ve been going to it which was a code update class, everything else...and other than I m the only contractor down here because everyone is scared to death of Roger s department, okay, it s like going against the Police here. Roger Lehman: I disagree with that totally. Joe Schenk: Well, I talked to ten contractors last night and they all had the same opinion. The school for continuing ed is worthless. They would rather see the county tack $30 on the license fee and hire four new inspectors. Roger Lehman: Well, I would too. Joe Schenk: Because it is absolutely more or less worthless to sit down there for four...well, I sat down there for eight hours. There was an hour break in between two classes, okay. Now, you re saying $30 is not that much money to pay to sit through this. Roger Lehman: Correct. Joe Schenk: Okay, let s break it down a little bit differently. Roger Lehman: Okay.

11 Page 11 Joe Schenk: The average pool I sell is $30,000 and it takes me six days to build it. I spend a day sitting in your class. Do the math. I lost $5,000. Roger Lehman: Well, we offer classes in the evenings, we offer classes on Saturday. We can t offer them, you know, from midnight to 6:00 a.m., I guess. Joe Schenk: But that is what I am saying, Roger, is if you took the money instead of spending time at...if you surveyed and got an honest answer from the contractors about that it is they don t want to be there. Roger Lehman: Oh, I agree with that. Joe Schenk: They would rather spend...i would rather send you a check for $30 every month and get two more or three more building inspectors where I don t have to wait two days to get an inspection. Roger Lehman: You don t have to wait two days very often. Joe Schenk: Well, not very often, but still you ve expanded that to 48 hours because you don t have the staff to cover. Roger Lehman: Sixteen working hours-- Joe Schenk: Two days, but if you had four more inspectors that the $100,000 would pay for and I honestly believe if you surveyed the contractors...if you stood at the door...well, not you, one of these people stood at the door because they re not going to give you an honest answer. Roger Lehman: See, I don t agree with you. Commissioner Mourdock: Let me ask the question that Mr. Schenk started to ask, I think, a minute ago which is somewhere we re saying between $60,000, $80,000 or $100,000 more is going to be coming in from this each year, Roger, where is that money going to go? Roger Lehman: You re talking about the continuing education? Commissioner Mourdock: Uh-huh. Roger Lehman: Okay, that goes to PTI. They re the ones that put on the-- Commissioner Mourdock: Okay, so 100% of the fees that you re taking in are simply for CEU? Roger Lehman: Yeah, we don t take them in. PTI takes them in, so there is no bookkeeping. It s solely privatized. Joe Schenk: What I am saying, why should they make the money? Roger Lehman: Well, if they weren t making the money it would be either us doing the work and we don t have the manpower to do it. Commissioner Tuley: I still don t think that is his point. His point is what he said a minute

12 Page 12 ago. Joe Schenk: My point is-- Commissioner Tuley: He would rather pay $30 a year and give it directly to the county or city and let us hire additional contractors. President Jerrel: There is no value to continuing education? Joe Schenk: None. President Jerrel: I just sent the Auditor in to call an electrical contractor who has a general contractor license and sat through two days last week. What did he think? Suzanne Crouch: Beneficial. President Jerrel: He thought it was beneficial? Suzanne Crouch: Uh-huh. Roger Lehman: We don t do a swimming pool class. We have not had a swimming pool class yet, but it will be coming because now we have a license that covers it. I m not pretending that we have a class for everybody and every area of this that is something that they ll feel is beneficial. I do feel like the majority of people that go to the classes, particularly the code change classes...i ve had people go to the computerizing your business class and they ve said it was one of the greatest things they ve ever seen. They go to the legal class that talks about how you can improve employee relations and how you hire and fire and all that. Commissioner Mourdock: Do they do, Roger, at the end of the class do they have an appraisal form so that people can without signing their name on a form state their-- Roger Lehman: I don t know if they did this year or not to be honest with you. They have in the past. Joe Schenk: You sign your name (inaudible). Commissioner Mourdock: Yeah, it sounds...just as a self improvement thing it sounds like it ought to be something they routinely provide. Roger Lehman: Right. It s not perfect, but I think it has gotten better every year. President Jerrel: So you don t think there will be any comments made by anyone but yourself? Joe Schenk: Well, basically what it boils down to, I talked to ten contractors last night. Pat will tell you, he sat and talked to four of us...three of us. Commissioner Tuley: Counting me there was four, yeah. Joe Schenk: We ve all sat through them for four years. You actually learn more talking to other contractors and working than you actually learn down there. I mean, that s bottom line. That s bottom line. I would rather spend my $30 and have them hire three

13 Page 13 or four new inspectors and police the action that way. It s just like I m going to pick up three licenses. One is a swimming pool contractor license; one is a concrete contractor license; and one is a excavator license, okay. In my business I probably move more dirt than most excavating contractors do. I probably lay more concrete than half of the concrete companies, but yet I m going to be subjected to...i have to produce three letters stating I m qualified for the job. Evansville Concrete doesn t have a problem taking a quarter of a million dollar check from me every year. Why should I have to be reviewed whether I am qualified for the job or not? That s like taking a hunting dog out hunting and killing him before he has a chance to prove himself. President Jerrel: Do you know who you sound just like? Joe Schenk: It should be-- President Jerrel: I m going to tell you. I m going to tell you. You sound exactly like my father. He is dead now. He was a master plumber and worked longer than anyone else. He felt just like you, but everybody isn t just like you, Joe. Joe Schenk: Exactly, I know, but you should be given the opportunity to prove yourself. Yeah, if Roger has to write a guy six citations and he has to call him down four times then pull his license, but don t take every person that just because they didn t get grandfathered in and say we don t think you re qualified, you can t do that job. That s wrong. I mean, that is like saying, you know, we don t think you could do it. I mean, you ve got kids from North High School that built a house. Five years from now or four years from now you re going to have another set of kids graduate school. With today s education some of those kids can actually pass a test, some of them can t, but there will probably be a few in there that have the ability to build a house and they will have the family support to start their own business, but they couldn t pass the written test to do it. But you re saying by saying that you have to be reviewed that s backwards. President Jerrel: It s sort of...it s like every profession. I know it s disgusting to go through things when you feel you re truly competent, but doctors have to do it, teachers have to do, every profession has to do it. I mean, it s not-- Joe Schenk: Exactly, a doctor goes in for schooling every two years. A nurse goes in every two years. President Jerrel: No, the doctors have to get continuing education credits every year. In the case of teachers, they have to do the same thing. That is just the way it is. At any rate, let s agree to something. This is first reading and I m glad you came because we don t want to have ordinances passed when there truly is disagreement and I think it will give us an opportunity between the first reading and the second reading to talk to some other people. Maybe you could suggest some of them call us. Well, that s right. I mean-- Commissioner Tuley: In essence, that is what I told you the other night. I said one of us can t lead the charge on this. I understand there are some people-- President Jerrel: I d like to hear from some of them. Joe Harrison, Jr.: You ve got to understand the city has already passed this. President Jerrel: Right, it s going to be within the city limits.

14 Page 14 Joe Harrison, Jr.: It has already passed. President Jerrel: The only thing we control is the perimeter of the county, so it s anything...of course, a lot of building is going on in the county now. Joe Schenk: Exactly. Joe Harrison, Jr.: Now you would be grandfathered in though for taking the test if you take the CLE. Joe Schenk: On three licenses. I still have to be reviewed, do I not? Roger Lehman: You have to provide letters of-- President Jerrel: Three letters. Roger Lehman: Three letters of recommendation, proof of being in business for three years. I know you ve been in business for three years, but I can t put in the file I know he has been in business for three years. I need something that says you ve been in business for three years. We ll put it in the file with an insurance bond. The same insurance will cover all the same bond that will cover all of them. You re looking at three $50 fees per year, insurance and everything, (inaudible). Every contractor has to have a bond. Joe Schenk: And you carry a bond for each license? Roger Lehman: One will cover all of them. It should, but that s up to your insurance company but most of them will cover them all. Joe Schenk: The bond I pay at the city...down at your office? Roger Lehman: The bond you pay your insurance company. Joe Schenk: No, I am talking about the performance bond that you get when you pay for your license. Roger Lehman: That s what you pay your insurance company for. It s on our form, but the insurance company puts that bond into effect by putting their name on it and seal. The only fee we get out of the whole thing is the 50 bucks. Joe Schenk: Okay, my other question is, and this is directed to Roger, okay. If you already have a residential license, you have a commercial license, okay, the reason I am picking up these other three licenses and it affects a lot of other people, now you re getting a lot of general contractors that are building big houses. Roger Lehman: Right. Joe Schenk: I no longer go through the homeowner. The minute I set foot in that yard I m no longer a residential contractor or a commercial contractor, I m a sub. Is that not correct? Roger Lehman: Okay, I think I agree with you, go ahead.

15 Page 15 Joe Schenk: So that is the reason I need three more licenses. Roger Lehman: Right, because you are not an employee of the permit holder and you re not a licensed-- Joe Schenk: Now let s flip it around. Roger Lehman: Okay. Joe Schenk: Now I need 15 hours of continuing education. Roger Lehman: Nine, three times three. Joe Schenk: Five licenses. The original two, my residential and my commercial. Roger Lehman: No, if you ve got a residential license you can trade that in on a swimming pool license or the building contractor for that matter. I mean, you can-- Joe Schenk: But if I want to build a house I can t build a house. I m carrying five licenses now I have 15 hours. Roger Lehman: No, you don t-- Commissioner Mourdock: Let me deal with that question if I may just to hone in on it a bit because it s a very good point. I heard you say a moment ago, Roger, that one of the classes you offered was using the computer in your business. Roger Lehman: Right. Commissioner Mourdock: That class...which that was a CEU type class, correct? Roger Lehman: I don t know if it was formally a CEU for other purposes. For our purposes it definitely is. Commissioner Mourdock: Okay, regardless which of the licenses that you have on this list, regardless which of those license holders took that class it would help them? Roger Lehman: Yes. Commissioner Mourdock: So if someone had four licenses wouldn t it make sense that they only took that class one time if it is going to help them instead of having to get 12 hours that they would only have it three hours? Roger Lehman: They don t have to take that...that three hour class-- Commissioner Mourdock: I know, but I m saying if they hold multiple licenses it doesn t necessarily mean they are in multiple businesses-- Roger Lehman: Well, it kind of does. Commissioner Mourdock: --and that one class could have more than one application. Roger Lehman: Okay, I ll say it kind of does indicate multiple businesses that you have.

16 Page 16 The residential contractor and the building contractor license, you re residential and commercial. Commissioner Mourdock: But the class has application to both? Roger Lehman: Right, and it would count for both...it counts for either. Commissioner Mourdock: So, in fact...okay, it would count for either? Roger Lehman: Right. Commissioner Mourdock: So if you had, let s just use a simple example, if you only had two licenses if you took that one class and it applied to both licenses instead of taking six hours you only have to take three. Commissioner Tuley: No, that is not what he is saying. Joe Schenk: No, because now you re breaking it down to per contractor not per license. Commissioner Tuley: So it is still six hours. Roger Lehman: Yeah, six hours if you have two licenses. Joe Schenk: You re saying the same contractor holds two licenses why should he take two classes? Commissioner Mourdock: Right, and if...i m not sure every class would apply that way, but in the example I heard used which was a pretty broad example of a computer class it would seem to me there ought to be some classes that you could take them to meet this requirement, this requirement and that requirement. You know, if there is an electrician s upgrade class that might have nothing whatsoever to do with building a swimming pool that is something different, but where there is a broad application it seems to me it ought to count for multiple classes. Roger Lehman: Well, the License Board-- President Jerrel: Are these hour for hour? Roger Lehman: Pardon? President Jerrel: Are they hour for hour? Roger Lehman: Yes, and actually we go beyond that. If you go to a three hour class it usually only lasts two and a half hours. Joe Schenk: So next year instead of me taking six hours I take 15. Instead of that day costing me $5,000 it is going to cost me $10,000. Roger Lehman: I m still not sure you need the other three licenses. You ve got a residential contractor and a building contractor license. Joe Schenk: I ve got two pools going right now that the general contractors are writing me the checks.

17 Page 17 President Jerrel: You re the sub. Joe Schenk: So that actually makes me a sub. Roger Lehman: Right, but what I am saying is if you...okay, let s get out of the swimming pool business for just a minute to help me out. Say you re a residential framer, you frame houses. Joe Schenk: Uh-huh. Roger Lehman: Okay. If you are working for a contractor as a framer then you need a license. Okay, if you hold a residential contractor license and you re doing the framing for a contractor you are covered. You don t need a framing license, you have the residential contractor license. Joe Schenk: But then next week you go do work for yourself. Joe Harrison, Jr.: You ve already got it. Roger Lehman: Then you have the residential contractor license. You can do framing, or drywall, or concrete, or brick, or anything you want to under that one license. You re in kind of a special situation with the swimming pools and I probably said you can trade your license in or you needed the additional license, but the more I think about this the way we look at that is we put the swimming pool contractor in there for a person who only wants to build swimming pools because we have people come in say I want to build swimming pools. Okay, get a residential or a building contractor license which means you need to know about how to frame a house, how to pour the footing for the foundation, how to insulate it, how to drywall, how to estimate how much roofing you need on it, so we really put that in to help a swimming pool contractor that didn t want to do anything else. You ve already got the license that covers all this stuff. I would say at this point that you don t need a swimming pool license per se. You don t need...you definitely don t need an excavating license, and what was the third one? Concrete? You can go in and do any of those three things for a person on your residential contractor license. Joe Schenk: If I am working for a general contractor I can do that? Roger Lehman: Yes, absolutely. Yeah, the word subcontractor license is a little misleading because you really have all the benefits of a contractor. We call it subcontractor because that is what the majority of people are that do that, but you can go in...let s say a person that is going to be (inaudible) and he does not have any other license and he gets a bricklayer license. He can come in and pull a permit to lay brick on a house if that is all you re having done. I think it s a communications deal here. I don t think we really have a big problem other than there (inaudible). Joe Schenk: Well, we re having a communications problem on that, but I m serious and I have talked to enough people and Pat sat and listened to two that the continuing education, granted you may have one or two classes that are worth going to, I admit I went to one in four years, but I would rather see you collect the money in your own office and put more people on the street. Roger Lehman: Like I said, I think that is a very good suggestion.

18 Page 18 Joe Schenk: Do away with the continuing ed and put the money in your own pocket. President Jerrel: Well, if we re...i mean, I would like to talk to some people. I just heard him talking too. Now you have to do continuing ed, do you not? Joe Harrison, Jr.: A minimum of six a year, 36 hours over three years. President Jerrel: It s just the nature of the-- Joe Schenk: Okay, it may be the nature of it. The State of Indiana...you can go anywhere in this state except, get a license and you are not required by the state to have continuing education. In it s you come to continuing education, you pay us the $30 or you don t have a license, you don t work, in layman s term, and I believe there is another word for that. Joe Harrison, Jr.: But that is the way the ordinances are now. I mean, what you re saying now is the way it has been for a number of years in both the city and county and I think from what he just told you your circumstance would not be any different with this new ordinance. Is that what you re saying, Roger? Roger Lehman: Yes. Joe Schenk: What I am still trying to get across to you is that you re actually forcing the contractors to go to something that is not required. Joe Harrison, Jr.: But, again, that s the ordinance as it is now. I mean, that has been that way for years. I mean, assuming your argument is true this ordinance is not changing that requirement. There has been a requirement for continuing education up to this point and there has been a licensing requirement. Joe Schenk: But it is expanding it. Joe Harrison, Jr.: I understand that. Joe Schenk: It s expanding it. Yeah, okay, you re not changing it, but you re adding to it. I just went from six hours to 15. Joe Harrison, Jr.: I don t think so. President Jerrel: I think you just went back. Joe Harrison, Jr.: I think you just went back. Roger Lehman: You definitely went back to six. Keep talking! President Jerrel: Well, Joe, at any rate we ll...i mean, this process tonight is just the initial-- Commissioner Tuley: To introduce the ordinance. President Jerrel: Introduce it and we have a public hearing then in two weeks. Joe Harrison, Jr.: It will probably be three.

19 Page 19 President Jerrel: Three weeks. Joe Harrison, Jr.: It s got to be advertised twice. President Jerrel: You want us to let you know? Joe Schenk: Yes. Joe Harrison, Jr.: I think it will...what I was going to ask is November 30th would be the date of the final reading. President Jerrel: Okay, do you mind...give me a number. Joe Schenk: Commissioner Tuley: He s got my number. President Jerrel: Okay, alright, we ll call you. This is just a formality with our initial reading. Is there anyone else that wishes to-- Joe Schenk: Thank you. President Jerrel: Okay, yes. Mary Biggerstaff: My name is Mary Biggerstaff. I am president and owner of BMB. I have been in business in Evansville, since 1984 at which time was prior to the new licensing, but I ve had a license that long. When the new licensing went into effect I contacted Mr. Lehman s office and was told that I could send any representative from my company for the continuing education. At that time I sent both my husband and my son, Bruce, Sr. and Bruce, Jr. Licenses came in for the first two or three years with their names on it. I don t have a problem with that, but I was told that anyone could represent the company. This last year when I tried to...i had paid and I went down to pick up the licenses I was informed that there is only one license and that was issued to Bruce, Sr. and not Bruce, Jr. I think that what we are trying to get across to you to consider with continuing education is the fact that Bruce, Sr. is basically an administrative member of BMB. He goes and he attends a three hour class, what good is that doing? President Jerrel: Junior? Mary Biggerstaff: Senior or Junior. They are basically administrative. They are not the ones that are actually doing work. They re not the framers, they re not the excavators on the machines, so they re getting an education, yes, but what is that doing? I think that if you really look into Koester Contracting, SIGECO, Peyronnin, they are doing inhouse safety OSHA requested training and they are getting their training in-house and not from your licensing classes. I would like you to consider that as far as amending the ordinance or going through with it. Roger Lehman: Yeah, I might comment and this hasn t come up before so I didn t mention it. We encourage and accept continuing education from (inaudible) that is relative to whatever your license is. We have probably, I would guess, 15% of contractors who don t come to our classes but they have conventions and continuing education for their remodelers, homebuilders and electricians and several other places.

20 Page 20 We have accepted routinely OSHA training in-house as long as there was proof people who had a license attended the class. Commissioner Mourdock: And those who taught it were certified? Roger Lehman: Well, we haven t even required that in the past. That s a good idea. In other words, actually we ve encouraged as much as we can people to get education where they can get it and when we were in the business we were really pushing that because, like I said, it was such a hardship on us to put this on. Again, it is a response to City Council s suggestion. It was put in the ordinance, the boards have enforced it and agreed on the three hours per year since then and the board is the only one that can change that. Commissioner Mourdock: Let me go back to Mrs. Biggerstaff s point though, because I think it s a very good question and I could give an answer to the question, but I am curious as to what you ll give. As far as the fact that someone in an administrative position is required to do this, they do show up, they get the training, but they re not the person out there on the job sites day in and day out, how do you deal with that? Roger Lehman: In a company there is only one license required (inaudible). There is only one person in that company who has to carry that license. They are the license holder for that company. We don t know who the rest of the company is for one thing. The second thing is the assumption is made that the person holding the license, which granted maybe the president or administrative type person, will be able to take that information back to the employees. The other side of the coin is the employees are more than welcome to come to the classes. They ll have to pay for it because expenses are still incurred, but very few people pay to have employees come separate from themselves. So the assumption is, one that the administrator or the head of the company will pass the information down to the employees because there may be...koester, how many employees do you got? One hundred or 500 or somewhere in between. Commissioner Mourdock: Depends on the time of year. Roger Lehman: Yeah. So to require 100 employees to come to the class is going to really make this thing balloon out of proportion, so our assumption is that we would say the administrator license holder would be the one who would come to the classes. That s the only person we know who they are. Is that not working? Charlene Timmons: I don t think so. Commissioner Tuley: It means we have to start all over again! President Jerrel: Oh, no, no. No. Roger Lehman: I don t know if that answers your question. Commissioner Mourdock: It wasn t the answer I expected and I m not sure it answered Mrs. Biggerstaff s point at all. I mean, the underlying philosophy of all of these licensing requirements is, I think, so that the people of who buy houses, who move into commercial buildings, have a better opportunity to move into a quality house that meets codes for plumbing, foundation work, safety, fire, what have you. Roger Lehman: Correct.

21 Page 21 Commissioner Mourdock: And as a philosophical question the point she raises if the guy who has got the license never comes on the site how are we gaining anything? Roger Lehman: Okay, well that, of course, is a philosophical question. The guy who holds the license (inaudible). The inspectors are the ones that pick up the slack between the two and as Mr. Schenk said, my feeling is without continuing education where we at least educate the contractor as to the proper way things are to be done, the changes in the code and so on our alternative is to take that to the employees. (Inaudible.) President Jerrel: Okay, is there anyone else? Bart Schutz: The only thing I question is...my name is Bart Schutz, 3100 Ridgewood Drive. The money for the new licenses when we did this several years ago we split everybody up in separate categories and divided it into four licenses and where that money has went and where this money, because the new license for the contractor or concrete construction is $125 for the first one and then $50 renewal-- Roger Lehman: Let me comment on that. Bart Schutz: Well, and we don t...we re not getting any more inspectors and, you know, if this money was going towards that that s great because I feel that is what we need. (Inaudible.) Roger Lehman: People who grandfather (inaudible). People coming in taking the test-- Bart Schutz: Where is the money going? Roger Lehman: It goes to the General Fund of the city and the county. It always has. Bart Schutz: So the Building Commission doesn t get it any way? Roger Lehman: Our budget comes out of the General Fund, but it s not a user fee (inaudible). President Jerrel: I don t know. I m going to ask the Auditor and I m not going to put her on the spot, but she can think about it over night and tell me tomorrow. Do we receive...the county, to my understanding, does not receive any fees from the Building Commission. Suzanne Crouch: Sure we do. President Jerrel: Do we? Roger Lehman: Fifty percent of the license fees and you get the permit fees in the county and the city gets the permit fees in the city. President Jerrel: Okay. Roger Lehman: The license fees is split. Suzanne Crouch: It s a couple hundred thousand. Roger Lehman: Yeah, it s several hundred thousand.