The Axe Files - Ep. 178: Jason Kander

Transcription

1 The Axe Files - Ep. 178: Jason Kander Released October 5, 2017 [00:00:06] And now from the University of Chicago Institute of Politics and CNN The Axe Files with your host David Axelrod. Axelrod: [00:00:16] Jason Kander became a sensation in Democratic politics in 2016 a young challenger to Senator Roy Blunt in Missouri. He very nearly pulled off the upset of the year. But for Donald Trump pulling off a bigger upset of the year and carrying his state by 19 points Cantor lost by less than three. He also got a lot of attention for an ad in which he a veteran of the war in Afghanistan assembled a weapon blindfolded while he talked about the need for background checks. Jason Kander's a fellow at the Institute of Politics this fall. And we sat down in the wake of the massacre in Las Vegas to talk about guns as well as his life career and future. Axelrod: [00:01:10] Jason Kander It's good to see you. You do. Normally I'd start out a conversation like this from the beginning of your story but something happened this week that requires me to jump ahead a little and that is this. Horrific event in Las Vegas in which in which 58 people lost their lives and over 500 wounded in what was essentially an ambush. You came to national attention last year as a candidate for the United States Senate and particularly because of one commercial and that was a commercial of you as a veteran blindfolded assembling a weapon and talking about the gun issue and background checks. Talk a little bit about that. Why did you do that ad. And and and what were you trying to communicate. Kander: [00:02:09] Sure. So I have an F rating from the NRA and the other side was definitely making sure everyone knew that they were running lots of ads about it. Millions of dollars in TV ads and then on top of that. Wayne LaPierre president of the NRA. You know they hated me so much that he actually personally came to Missouri to campaign against me. And so when all that happened lots of folks reached out to the campaign and they they had suggestions about what they thought I should do. And the most common suggestion. This won't surprise you was that I make one of those ads where I shoot like a really big gun and talk about how much I love hunting and basically pretend to be a Republican. But I you know I do you hunt. I have been hunting since I was a kid and I didn't get into politics to play a character on TV. And so. And also like I've always believed that you know you can't you can't act your way through this like I'm not an actor. And you know people would see through it. So I I've just always led with what I truly believe. So that ad was me saying I'm right about background checks and the NRA is wrong and I know what the heck I'm talking about. And so that that's the whole idea behind the ad right is like I could have tried to make an ad right convince everybody. No no no really. I'm you know I should have an A rating or whatever but it's not believable it's also not I didn't get in office to say stuff and I didn't get into politics to say stuff and I believe. So I've always believed like you make your argument and people respect that. Axelrod: [00:03:35] Now you presumably believe that being a veteran gave you certain standing to talk about these issues because you were trained in handling weapons. You obviously seen weapons being used for things other than hunting. Kander: [00:03:54] Right. It definitely I would say I would put it this way. So much of my view on things including this issue is informed by my experience as is true for anybody. Right. But for Ep. 178 Jason Kander 1

2 me. And that's why in the end I say you know in the army I learned to use and respect my rifle because you know it's a tool. And so the ad was getting across that I mean again it was just I know what I'm talking about. I've always believed that one of the most important things you can do when you're making your argument politically is I refer to it as it's like showing your math you know someone may not agree with your conclusion but they need to know how you got there. And if you're telling them how you got there and they can understand how you got there then at the end of it they may not. They may not come out the same way on the issue but they're going to see how he got there and then they there's more credibility and respect for that and I feel like that moves your argument forward. Axelrod: [00:04:48] This issue is now front and center again because of what happened in in Las Vegas. What was your reaction when you when you saw the news. Kander: [00:04:58] Well I woke up. I woke up an intern to get my son ready for school and my wife was on her phone and she said like a lot of people just got killed in Vegas and of course and I think you know so my reaction was unfortunately. Familiar. I mean I think that's what bothers me the most about it. Axelrod: [00:05:18] I agree with you. I mean it's almost as if we're numb to these things because they come so frequently which I think is one of the most dangerous parts of this is just the idea that we can allow this to become part of American life. But the thing about that is is that I feel like a lot of that a lot of the conversation right now around like when I look on social media and hear people talk about it they'll say well I guess we're just OK with us now or I guess you know and people say well you know Newtown happened and then we didn't do anything. But the thing is the country is ready to do something then and the country is ready to do something now. But we the way we draw districts in this country the way gerrymandering works and the fact that primaries are more important in determining who gets elected than general election so often that's the thing that is at the heart of why we're not doing anything on the issue. It's not that the American people don't have an urgency to do something it's that you know what's the old Upton Sinclair line. It's very difficult to get a man to understand something you pay not to understand. I mean that's what I think is happening with this Republican Congress and I and I think it's important for us to recognize that the American people are ready to take action on this and the Congress is just not listening because in too many districts they're incentivized not to listen. Axelrod: [00:06:33] Specifically on this incident in Las Vegas. I mean this guy Jerry rigged his semi-automatic weapons to essentially make them automatic weapons I mean these are weapons of war. They're not weapons for sport. Kander: [00:06:46] They're weapons of war meant to inflict as many casualties and kill as many people as possible in the shortest amount of time. I mean you know I've seen some stuff where people have massed together the videos where folks are talking about doing what they always do after something like this people start like the Republicans start talking about mental mental health. Very important part of the conversation. But I'm sorry whether or not someone who's mentally ill can get a gun is also an important part of that conversation. And I've even seen where I turn on cable news where people are talking about security at hotels and whether it should be addressed. I mean that's incredible. We're going to we're going to talk about the fact that he could get 20 or whatever guns up in the hotel and say This must be an issue with the Ep. 178 Jason Kander 2

3 hotel. Like did the desperation at which people will go to to avoid talking about guns in the wake of this and then they'll say well this is not the time. There's like a mass shooting every other day in this country right now. So when is the time going to be and when it all comes down to money. I mean that's the other thing people don't talk about here is that the NRA like when you're running for office and you get the questionnaire. I would imagine you've seen it. You get a questionnaire from the NRA. It's not about questions about gun rights and people to own guns. It's mostly questions about selling guns. It's about the right of federally licensed gun manufacturers to do X. So the reason that they don't want background checks the reason that they don't want you know the reason that they want silencers to I mean the silencers thing is the perfect example right because we had a really sophisticated technology for hearing protection in the Army it was called earplugs you know. And so they're running around saying this is about hearing protection. No it's if they can sell silencers they make more money and and do background checks might cause a few fewer people to buy guns and then they make less money. That's what this is it's it's they just want to sell as many guns as possible. And that's the NRA leadership I'm talking about not the average member. Axelrod: [00:08:44] Now in this case background checks may not have. I mean this guy bought these guns not at gun shows not online but he bought them through gun dealers and he went through background checks and he came up clean. So background checks wouldn't necessarily prevented this. Kander: [00:09:02] Right. Maybe I mean it seems to be the case right. But who knows. I mean and also like. There's so many different when you look at a guy who's got what 40 weapons he unleashes them in this way. There's no way in the world in my mind that you can look at this and say well clearly nothing. And I know that's not what you're saying but clearly nothing could have been done. Right. Axelrod: [00:09:25] I mean well there are other things that could be done. My question I guess is what why are these particular weapons available and why are the devices that allow them to be adapted and become fully automatic available. Now you know Democrats in Congress led back in 94 on an assault weapons ban or in 93 and a lot of that scarred a lot of people politically because there was a sense and I think Bill Clinton may have spoken to this that that cost some people their seats. Do you think these weapons should be available. Kander: [00:10:03] No I think that what I carried in Afghanistan it is not necessary for somebody to be carrying around here. I mean you know there's just. They're not for defense. You can't you don't go hunting with an F-15 and you don't defend your house with it. Not if you're doing it in a way that's in any way responsible toward the other people who live in your house. So. I think it's pretty it's pretty clear. And then you know you get right at it like when you say people are concerned that there are some people who lost their seats over it. I think at the heart of this right now it's not even about Democrat and Republican right now it's about Republicans who know that these weapons don't belong in the hands of folks just walking around in the street but are worried that they're going to lose a primary because of it because the outsized influence of the NRA in Republican primaries and because of the outsized importance of Republican primaries in determining who actually is in the House of Representatives for instance. So what it really comes down to is folks got to have the courage right now you encourage people have to prioritize saving lives over keeping their jobs. It's that simple. It's very much the same thing as the health care debate. Right like at the end of the day there are a whole bunch of people in Ep. 178 Jason Kander 3

4 Congress who are who think that there is a higher good in retaining their current employment than there is in not having more people die. Axelrod: [00:11:29] Do you in your own state you obviously were kind of flamboyant in challenging the gun lobby with that ad what what price if any do you think you paid Did you lose votes that you would have gotten if if you hadn't taken the position you had. And we should point out that you didn't get quite enough to win. Kander: [00:11:50] Sure. Well I actually outperformed every Democrat on the ballot in Missouri. Well I'm not I'm not denigrating your opponent. I wasn't there it sounded like there was need. There was the beginning of a sentence that ends including one who was endorsed by the NRA. You know the the my good friend crisscrossed the Democratic candidate for governor was also endorsed by the NRA. So in terms of the question I've had I had to say I don't think it is about which position you hold. I think what voters are just looking for is their passion is persuasive and and it's important that you are passionate and articulating what you believe. And and I think like when people saw me make the argument. Look I think the majority of people agree with me on background checks anyway. But the ones who didn't were like that guys wanted to tell me what he believes and I see how he got there. And that's really important to voters. Axelrod: [00:12:44] When you travel around Missouri. What arguments do you hear. Because it isn't just about. Sportsmen right it's. There are there is an element. Of people who are opposed to these regulation because they believe that that is their right to be armed against for example an overweening government that they're worried about about surrendering all their weapons that this is a step toward you know total authoritarian leadership. Kander: [00:13:22] You hear that occasionally. But to be honest like if somebody if somebody says something like that I generally know pretty quick like it's a pretty long road between me and convincing that person. Right. But the majority of folks and I think the folks who the attack ads on this issue you know from the right that are the ones they're trying to get is a different set of people. And I think it is. Well let me back up and explain it this way. I have folks all the time on our side of the aisle on our side of this issue say to me how is it possible that folks who are living in poverty in a rural area for instance how is it possible that they'll put guns as their as their top issue. And what I always explain is because I kind of had that question at first too but I've been around my state a lot for several years and what I found is often what it is really is that it's not that it's their top issue it's it's it's like this. These folks look at it and they say OK I get that increasing wages would be good for me and for my family. I get that if you can achieve what you say you want to achieve on college affordability that be good health care that be good. But they've also come to the conclusion that that's not going to happen you know. And that's that's not just about Democrats. That's about a real loss of faith in the political process right. And so then some of these folks what they'll do is they'll say to themselves you know I go hunting with my grandson with my son and I went hunting with my dad with my grandfather's tradition and my family and it's kind of it's cultural and right and they say and they were saying and I don't think you're going to get this other stuff done. So just don't mess with this thing that is important to me. And when you look at it that way you can go back to showing the math. I don't agree with the conclusion but I see the math. Ep. 178 Jason Kander 4

5 Axelrod: [00:15:02] Yeah I totally I totally believe. I think that is the preponderance of people who are on that side of the issue is this sense of you know this sense that perhaps there's a distain for their culture that stay in for for you know what is a tradition. And. Kander: [00:15:24] It's also now that it's also. So those attack ads I think are not just about saying that. Not just about playing on the fact that that folks don't believe you'll get things done in this other stuff. It's also sort of saying this guy wouldn't fit in or this guy wouldn't fit in in your town. And so you know going back to the ad that we did that sort of me saying like it's not just me saying here's what I believe and I know what I'm talking about. It's also saying and we would get along fine. Axelrod: [00:15:56] Well and the fact that you served in that you were a veteran which is true in a lot of these rural areas has a higher preponderance of people who do serve which is a different issue which is why don't more people serve and why you know why don't we encourage that national service military service and so on. But that was a validator for a lot of those voters. Kander: [00:16:21] It is but I also think so. I don't think it's just about having served in the military that's a validator for those voters. I think for all voters what folks are looking for right now is evidence and this is with everybody running evidence of everyday courage. Evidence of this person has been through something in their life that is more difficult than the campaign they're in right now. And and therefore by virtue of that if they get the job the possibility of losing a job won't be a prospect of the worst thing that could ever happen to them and therefore they'll go out and do the job. So I don't think you have to be a veteran for that. I think I think there are a whole lot of backgrounds and professions and life experiences that people look at and say oh this person seems like they've done some tough for them. Axelrod: [00:17:02] So I believe that's true. But in terms of breaking down these cultural divides. Military service is helpful in that regard. Kander: [00:17:13] It certainly has been for me. I mean it's like for me I recognize that. The fact that I feel that I can relate to a lot of different folks from a lot of different places who have different experiences than me I think is very much grounded in the fact that you know as an officer in the Army folks come to you with all sorts of experiences and these are your soldiers and you're you're responsible for them. They're your family for that period of time and you are very deeply in their life like they need to come to you with all sorts of stuff and you need to be able to go to them with all sorts of stuff. And you really start to recognize how we're not really that far apart from one another and even if somebody just has a completely different origin than you have you really become much more. For me anyway it's how I just got to know a lot of people and feel like when I meet folks I don't I don't I don't feel like I mean not to strangers because of that. Axelrod: [00:18:07] So let me get back to the beginning. Kander: [00:18:09] Sure. Axelrod: [00:18:10] And how a Jewish kid from Overland Park Kansas gets to where you are right now. You know your parents were juvenile probation officers. Yeah. And your dad worked Ep. 178 Jason Kander 5

6 as a police officer and your but your uncle was a Broadway composer who composed the music for Cabaret and Chicago. So how did this all work out. Kander: [00:18:37] Well I mean you'd think I had some musical ability. I can't even hum really to a beat. But yes so my great uncle John my grandfather's brother who he and I are really close. He's still he's still writing still me still working in New York. And you know I just went to his When I was shown a couple months ago. Yeah. So he also from Kansas he's from Kansas City Missouri. Yeah. So my whole family is from KCMO and then my folks worked on the Kansas side. So I grew up over there. But yeah I just grew up in a house where it was really public service oriented in the sense that my parents. Like my we refer to them as my unofficial foster brothers. These are the guys who my folks took in because you know their families were in difficult times that kind of thing. So like I grew up with these guys as my brother so it was great for me right. Like I would go to life was like sports and school and then every night was a sleepover with my best friends. And but it was it was a real lesson because my folks didn't like sit down with my younger brother and I have like a conversation around the dining room table like we're thinking and taking these boys in they just put another spot at the dinner table and all that another bed. And they just they just demonstrated to us that you you do the right thing even when it's not an easy thing. It's the right thing so you do it. Axelrod: [00:19:59] But just getting back here to the composer is how did he end up. Making this journey from Kansas City to Broadway. Kander: [00:20:11] So I probably will screw up some of the story but. Axelrod: [00:20:13] No one will know but him. Kander: [00:20:16] No know there's been a fair amount written about this. But you know John went out to in New York a long time ago I mean and just and I think he started as a rehearsal pianist and then he just he's got an incredible gift. I mean he and I are really close. I talked to him all the time. He always says when we're talking about politics which we talk about often he will always marvel and say Gosh it's all theater and and he doesn't mean that like in a good way. Yes and he's not composing music for it. Right. But he's meant his gift. It's incredible to say with him I've sat with him where you'll be at dinner and someone will pick up the glasses and they cling together and you're going to think about it and John's like oh he loved the sound I got him or he memorizes phone numbers by the tones. I mean so he's just got I mean it's just an absolutely incredible gift. He's also the kindest and most generous person I. He will sit there and he will just ask you all he wants knows you about you no matter who he's talking to. Axelrod: [00:21:17] We're going to take a short break and we'll be right back with Jason Kander. Axelrod: [00:21:29] So. You were a baseball fanatic who wasn't big enough to play baseball. Kander: [00:21:36] I was this size in the eighth grade. So I really thought I was. Axelrod: [00:21:40] Headed for something big. Kander: [00:21:41] I really did. Yeah. Ep. 178 Jason Kander 6

7 Axelrod: [00:21:42] Yeah. Kander: [00:21:43] It was disappointing. Axelrod: [00:21:44] But it turns out that you had the body of a debater. Kander: [00:21:48] Yeah. Never had it put that way. But thanks. Axelrod: [00:21:55] And you. And you joined the debate team and you were good at it. I was I was I was I was pretty good at talking. One of your one of your teachers said if you get him in front of an audience it's just like a light went off. So what is it about that that appealed to you. Kander: [00:22:12] You know at the time it was I mean I genuinely was so naive I really thought like I was going to play center field for the Kansas City Royals. And and then at first I was like oh this is kind of fun I'm good at this. And I guess I just felt like I can remember feeling like. I remember that being in debate and the other I'd look over it like the other team the other kids. And I noticed they were all looking down at their at their papers and they were all reading what they were going to say or writing it out. And I noticed about a year into it that I never did that. I always stared right at the judges. And that's kind of when I realized like oh I do this differently than other people. And so to me it wasn't like that. I. I recognized it wasn't that I was this great or it or whatever it was that I think I just my parents sort of. The way they raised me. I. Was able to understand where people were coming from and therefore I was able to kind of not change what it is what my argument was. But but no how to present it in a way that people could receive. Axelrod: [00:23:14] You know you said earlier that in relation to the ad that you know you're not a you're not an actor and people will sense that and so on. But there is a performance element to politics that you obviously felt came too early in that in that debate in that debate class. Kander: [00:23:40] Yeah. And I think what I learned and what I still use is that the performance element of it is if you can be the same person you are when you're talking to one person as when you're talking to. And this is different depending on the venue. But for the most part like I feel like some people give speeches and some people give talks I give speeches sometimes mostly I give talks and. And I feel like that is a different thing. And the difference for me is like you kind of get the same thing whether you're it's just me and you or whether it's me and you and a thousand other people and and the performance aspect of that is recognizing that the only way that I am persuasive in the only way that I get across to people is if it's just me. And so the way I the way I usually talk about this like when I talk to two young people who are thinking about politics I always explain that they can't act. You know I always say like maybe you're an actor maybe you're a great actor or whatever. Go be an actor. But Americans see a lot of acting good acting like they see it on on TV. They see it in the movies. And so when they see bad acting it doesn't look like bad acting. It looks weird and it's creepy and it makes people uncomfortable. And so I just don't do that because I'm not good at it. And so I think that's what I've learned. And in my line of work performing is just you have to be authentically yourself. Axelrod: [00:24:57] You know I heard a story years ago from Mike Deaver who's now deceased who was Ronald Reagan's political guy who's a communications guy who sort of did for Reagan Ep. 178 Jason Kander 7

8 what I did for President Obama but he told me that he was plotting out a day once because we're poor I think it was Tom Brokaw actually was coming to see Reagan at the governor's mansion and they plotted out a whole day's worth of activities and. And he said at noon you're going to go down to the park in front of the Capitol and you're going to throw your coat over your shoulder and you're going to shake hands with people. And Reagan looked at the whole day and he said everything is good but that thing it new endeavors that what's wrong with that. And Reagan said I never take my coat off. And if I take my coat off people are going to read that it's a phony thing because I'm going to feel like it's a phony thing now. He was an actor but he was really really sensitive to what red as authentic and what didn't read as authentic which was one of the reasons he got to be president of the United States. Kander: [00:25:57] It reminds me of a friend who was an actor who I once asked who's very politically active and I asked him I said Just think about running for office and he said I don't want to act that much. So I mean you know there's authenticity at the kernel of it right. Axelrod: [00:26:12] Now you ran into some tough debaters one of whom ended up becoming your wife. Kander: [00:26:17] That's right. It's the only argument I've ever won. Axelrod: [00:26:19] It's like a sitcom. Kander: [00:26:21] It is it's like a really nerdy sitcom. Axelrod: [00:26:24] So tell me about that. Kander: [00:26:26] Yes so Diana was she was on a rival debate team. And then and it legitimately is the only argument that I've truly out in out one between the two of us. I remind her all the time that there was a neutral judge and that that has not happened since. But yes so we we met her our senior year went to rival high schools and she was an immigrant yes she came over at the age of eight as a refugee from the Soviet Union for refugee from anti-semitism. And so yeah for a kid like me you know grow up. I mean I didn't know a whole lot of Jewish folks who were not my cousins growing up where I grew up. And so the first Jewish girl I ever dated you know. I was 17 and I was like This is pretty good I like her. Axelrod: [00:27:15] So how important is Judaism, how important is is your faith to you. Kander: [00:27:22] It's important. You know I don't want to sit here and pretend that I'm you know far more observant than I am. But but it's an important part of who I am. I mean certainly the idea of like to call an alarm repair the world heal the world I think is I don't think I realized until I got older until like my wife and I did a trip to Israel and that kind of thing that I I realized sort of how that really is kind of at the center. Of a lot of my thinking I had a rabbi once who said he he told our congregation he said we're not about making the world more Jewish We're about making the world better. And I feel like that's a big part of who I am. Axelrod: [00:28:05] You know it's interesting to me because you had that political success in Missouri. Do you think that and your governor's Jewish right is there. So this doesn't seem to be a barrier to election in your state. Ep. 178 Jason Kander 8

9 Kander: [00:28:26] Yeah I'll tell you. I'll tell you a funny story. So I'm down in in what we call the boot heel of Missouri one once in the southeast corner. And very I mean it's the South. I mean that's basically I've done races down the road. And it's basically the deep south and it's a little north of the deep south but it's it. And so you're down there and. Well anyway I'm I'm staying over to a friend's house during my secretary of state's race and he his father in law was there and he and his father in law started to tell a joke and it became pretty clear to me in the first 30 or so seconds that this was a Jewish joke and I didn't expect that I was going to be offended. But I also didn't want him to feel uncomfortable. So I kind of interrupted him and I just said hate just see you know I'm just. Axelrod: [00:29:14] Like Hey putz. Kander: [00:29:15] Yeah. I went straight into Yiddish. No I just let's just just so you know I'm probably not going to be offended but you know so he's like OK whatever. So he tells the joke and it was fine. And then his like my buddy was like he is Jewish. She's like yeah right. And he's like no really he is. And so then I got a little awkward sort of kind of break the ice. I said you know I'm going to church in Caruthersville tomorrow morning because you know frequently on the campaign trail you go with friends to church and meet people. It's like I'm going to church and Caruthersville them all morning people are going to ask me where I go to church in Kansas City. How do you think I can answer that now. I've been down this road many times. I knew what I was going to do. I wasn't worried about it but I wanted him to feel better and he thought about that for a second and he said well you know as long as you're Christian. And I was like well I'm not. And he goes oh Jew is just another kind of Christian. And anyway but so no I always figured for folks whose. Axelrod: [00:30:14] Title of your memoir. Kander: [00:30:18] I don't know how my how my grandpa would feel about me but I just always figured that anybody who like anti-semitism would play a role in how they evaluated me as a candidate that was going to be their number 15 reason for not voting for me because they probably had 14 reasons ahead of that. And so you know I had people say stuff but I don't think it cost me many votes. Axelrod: [00:30:41] You you went off to school at Georgetown or you were a law student there. You went to American University undergrad and and then September 11th happened. Did you know instantly that you were going to enlist. Axelrod: [00:30:59] I knew pretty quick so I. Always really thought about. I really admired the idea of serving and I thought about like my grandfather my great grandfather had not been soldiers. And then a war had happened and then they went and did their service and then went back to their lives. And that was just sort of something that just always seemed really pragmatic to me. And it was it just seemed like a patriotic natural act. So I was thinking I want to serve and I kept telling myself I would and I don't know if I ever would have I maybe I would have done the JAG Corps something at some point but I don't know if I would have. And then 9/11 happened and I remember this refrain in my head just ringing all day which was I had to do something. I just kept memorizing. I have to do something. My roommates and I went down to give blood near the Capitol and we waited for a long time in line and then they came out and said that they Ep. 178 Jason Kander 9

10 couldn't take any more blood. And I remember right then I was like I'm going to I'm going to join. So they wouldn't take your blood they'd have to take you right. And and it's funny I went home and I was talking to Diana on the phone as before I married but she was back in Kansas City and we were together and we were still we weren't together we were together you know what I mean. And it was a long distance relationship is that right. Yes I got. And you can edit that out and post that part. I can't figure out what a long distance relationship is anyway. So and I say to her I tell her that story and you know they came out they couldn't take any more blood so I think I'm going to go into the military and see the eminently practical person that she is. She said maybe you could just go tomorrow and see if they could take more blood. Instead I went on a run and for the first time in years to try and get in shape you. Axelrod: [00:32:38] And you were injured right at the time. Kander: [00:32:41] I actually I decided I was going to go in and then I was in a pickup football game and it was my idea to play tackle which was really stupid in retrospect. And I tore my acl. And so then I had to go through surgery and physical therapy to be able to go into the army. Axelrod: [00:32:58] And you you entered Army intelligence that's what you were. And tell me about how that evolved in your experience in Afghanistan. Kander: [00:33:10] Sure. Well so a lot of folks were telling me like recruiters were saying you know you're going to have a lot of grief by the time you get your commission why don't you just go Jack. And they also said you could skip all this training and stuff and just do that. And at the time I just is nothing against Jags. I just felt like. I was just saying to myself I don't feel like what the Army needs right now is me as a lawyer you know I just felt like I wanted to go in and do something else. And so yes I went to Army Intelligence School and then I volunteered to deploy and I went to Afghanistan and did anti-corruption anti espionage investigations basically it was my job to figure out which bad guys were pretending to be good guys in the Afghan government. Axelrod: [00:33:48] And as you know there was a huge issue because there was a lot of duplicity and a lot of treachery and how did you go about that. Kander: [00:33:57] So when I got there. So the position was actually an analyst position. And when I got there they sort of said to me Well look you can you've got a choice here you can you can fly a desk so to speak and you can work here and do analysis on the night shift. And they weren't judging me. They just said here's your choice. They said or you can do this role. And they said we don't really have anybody collecting this information so you'll be analyzing it. But we also need somebody to go out and collect it. I had a little training in how to do that you get familiarization training and that when you go through basic intelligence school. But like I didn't have any of the advanced training that you get but you know one of the things you learn when you deploy is none of that it matters. You just do what you do to get the job done. And that seemed to me like what needed to be done. You seem more important. So I you know I spent about four days a week outside the wire and meeting with folks you know taking meetings learning about stuff going back right and up with some shady characters in some dangerous places at times often just me and my translator but it was an incredible experience. Axelrod: [00:34:58] Let me ask you based on your experience there as you as you watch from a distance what's happening now where are we. Because it seems as if there's a there's a Ep. 178 Jason Kander 10

11 government that's making a good faith effort. But still there's been a backsliding. And still the same problems of retaining the military. And and that that can actually defend the civil civil institutions there. Kander: [00:35:29] The two things first that I think about when I think about this the first is is that if you were to go back and write the American story from the beginning you would never write Afghanistan as the longest war in American history. I think we all just have to acknowledge that. You've got to start from there. And the second thing is one of the things I learned when I was over there and now I was over there six or seven. So what that meant was a lot of the folks even the generals that were coming over because Iraq was dominating the news they were relating everything through Iraq so they would talk about winning hearts and minds. They would talk about Sunni and Shia. Now both of those things were actually not the pervasive issues in Afghanistan and the pervasive issues in Afghanistan were what you just mentioned which was the center of gravity was the government of Afghanistan was demonstrating that at that time Karzai could be more than the mayor of Kabul. Right. Because the people first of all the country you know between Sunni and Shia just wasn't. I mean the population wasn't there wasn't a divide in the middle unlike in the other countries and then the second was that the the people overwhelmingly wanted the coalition to succeed. Hearts and Minds are not the issue. It was that people there was an enormous consequence for backing the coalition and then finally and then if they leave your town. Right. I actually used to use the analogy when I explain this to people like imagine you know that you know. That at the time Senator Clinton and Senator Obama were coming to your town in 0 8 and they were campaigning and you were deciding between the two of them. But the consequences were you know if you picked the wrong one the other side might kill you and your family right like that. That's the that's the level at which. So it wasn't about winning hearts and minds it was about convincing people that we could prevail that we could be competent we really being the government of Afghanistan. And I think we have to be realistic about the fact that I think a lot of what we went there to achieve in the first place or what we should have gone there to achieve in the first place has been achieved. Bin Laden is no longer there. It has for the most part been denied as a safe haven. That's changed here and there for al Qaeda the really dangerous stuff. Now when I look at it as you look at the fact that ISIS is as prevalent as it is that's really frightening because you know there was al Qaeda there was Taliban there was Hezbollah. Let me google the network. There was that kind of thing but there wasn't that. And so I think it's very clear that you're going to have to have a presence in the region you're going to have a presence there. But what I see President Trump doing is doing what he always does but in a way that is just I'm just so offended by it. I'm offended by it. Whenever he does it but especially here where what he's doing is he's dialing up the promises to the highest level he can while doing the absolute minimum of actual action. Right. I mean there was a point as you well know in what We had troops. Right. And and now he's going to add another four or five thousand to what we have now and claim that that's going to get better. Axelrod: [00:38:26] Do you think he should add more? You know he was reported to want to get out completely and his military advisers told him that that was not a viable solution and so he grudgingly agreed to add these four or five thousand troops what what what what. Let's say you were president of the United States we could tell them about this later. What would you do in this instance. How would you configure America's presence. Ep. 178 Jason Kander 11

12 Kander: [00:38:55] I'd be much more realistic about what we can achieve. Right. So no I'm not saying he should have a ton of troops there. What I am saying is that he needs to recognize that he's not going to get these things done that he claims he's going to get done. I think what he's doing is he's trying to buy time until he can come up with some very Trumpy way to declare victory and then just and then and then pull out I guess. But what's really upsetting about it is like when we just talked about we said you know he's deciding he's giving in to sending these thousands more troops which really messed up. He's not even doing that. President Trump has delegated to the Pentagon the authority to decide how many troops go over which I mean that's what the commander in chief does. And this is so consistent with what he did when Ryan Owens was killed in Yemen. And he said the generals lost him when they dropped the biggest piece of ordinance in I think Nangarhar province you know the MOAB the biggest bomb that we've dropped in this nonnuclear and he's asked about it and his immediate reaction. He literally made a noise like a long noise and then said well everyone knew. He's trying to avoid ever having to take blame when bad things happen and then take credit when good things happen. And in the last I'll finish this thought is there's about 4000 American soldiers who. Might be ordered by the Pentagon in this case to go to Afghanistan and they have the courage to go do it. They deserve a commander in chief with the courage to actually give that order in the first place. And so I think that's a huge lack of leadership. Axelrod: [00:40:21] OK so let me ask my question again what should we be doing here. Kander: [00:40:25] So I think we should have the amount of troops that we need in the region in order to to have the ability to do operations in the region when you can do counterterrorism. It's it's about we have probably less in order to say OK we need to be able to project force in this region. And we should at least try to continue to do some of the training mission but we have to be realistic. This can't go on forever. I could just cannot go on forever. Axelrod: [00:40:49] And we've been saying that for a long time. Kander: [00:40:51] But but but I'm talking about dialing it back to where it is. He's saying let's go back into serious direct combat there. And I'm saying let's scale back and recognize we've built the serious infrastructure there that's important in the region. We should we should utilize that but we're not going. Afghanistan is not going to be a Jeffersonian democracy. We need to recognize that sort of thing. And also Axelrod: [00:41:17] The question is not whether it's a Jeffersonian democracy but does it collapse and does the Taliban come back into power. Kander: [00:41:25] And if they do we would need to deal with that when it happens. But the question is not just does the Taliban come back it's Does the Taliban come back and how does that affect American interests. And do they then become a safe haven again. Then you deal with that situation. But you know just the Taliban coming back by itself is not enough to necessitate what he's doing. Axelrod: [00:41:43] We'll take a short break and we'll be right back with Jason Kander. So you came back and you. And you ran for state representative. Was it always in your mind that you were going to run for public office from the time that you were the high school debater. Ep. 178 Jason Kander 12

13 Kander: [00:42:04] I think around. I didn't know what it meant but I think sometime in high school I started I knew that I was interested in politics. And then yeah when I came home I was starting to think about running for office so I came home first I'm like from law school before I went off to intelligence school. Axelrod: [00:42:22] You at 27 when you. Kander: [00:42:23] When I was elected. Axelrod: [00:42:24] And you were the big issue that you fought for there were were reform issues campaign finance reform and so on. Why did you choose those of. Kander: [00:42:33] Really again born out of my experience overseas right. I had done anticorruption investigations over there. And and then. Really like viewed it in a way you know I never really been in politics when I was over there so I had sort of just my political science which is that background were like I had read about it. And so when I would look at the corruption over there I had the I. Had the armor of kind of saying well this is back home. It's not like this. And of course you know it's not comparable. It's not dangerous in the same way. But once I got into it I realized wow that there's like more similarities than I'm comfortable with here. The influence of money the you know the way all of that works. And that's that's how I think I became really passionate about it that in just the sense that like I'm very much I think a systems person in the way that I really believe that like when you get to the voting rights work now I believe when you get when you get the machinery right you tend to get a better outcome out of that machinery like a better policy outcome. When the process is right and so that's just something I care about. Axelrod: [00:43:38] How did that experience in the military change you shape you. Do you feel like you're a different person for having served and how did it affect you as you moved into politics. Kander: [00:43:49] It has everything to do with it. But it also has everything to do with the person I am as a dad and as a husband. And I think a lot of it is it's just it gives me the ability to put things in perspective in a way that maybe I don't think I had prior to that. Right. Which is to say that. When I was running the first time. Well for one thing I just kind of physically I paced my opponents I knocked on doors. You know because I had done hard work I put my head down and finished a rock March when I was in pain and all that kind of thing. But also it was I just. I'm not afraid to lose I'm not I'm not afraid to be embarrassed. You know in the same way maybe some other folks are because I don't know I just been through tougher stuff. Axelrod: [00:44:34] Not being afraid to be embarrassed is of course a prerequisite for being a political candidate. Kander: [00:44:39] I think it's as someone once said to me they said if you are willing to go out and be and be humiliated in front of your friends and family that makes you very dangerous to the status quo. And I believe that. Axelrod: [00:44:50] You didn't stay in the legislature for long and. Ep. 178 Jason Kander 13

14 Kander: [00:44:54] A couple of terms. Axelrod: [00:44:54] Yeah. You ran for secretary of state what prompted you to do you were you had you gained everything you thought you could from being in the religious. Kander: [00:45:04] Oh I fixed everything. I was like well this is done. No. The secretary of state's office is one where again going back to like I believe in the machine machines are on word when you're talking about politics. But the system should be a just one. And I saw the Republicans looking at the secretary of state's office which was in charge of elections and I saw them having their eye on voter suppression policies and I was not OK with that idea. And I felt that I could run and win that race and I thought it was really important to have somebody who is an advocate for voting rights in the office. And so and what did you do to advance voting rights in the office. A few things. One we actually made Missouri the 16th state to put the voter registration form online. We didn't get early voting to where we wanted it to be but we advanced the conversation a lot. We actually got a Republican member who is the vice chair of the elections committee to propose a bill. We just took a customer service approach to it and we did things with the initiative petition process to open it up to make sure people felt heard in that process. We took a really nonpartisan down the middle approach to that process so that folks knew that we weren't trying to get the answer to that question we wanted we were just posing it to voters which is a big deal in Missouri. So. So we did a lot in that regard. Axelrod: [00:46:19] You know not to brag but Illinois just just implemented automatic registration. Kander: [00:46:25] You should brag. It's good. I was OK. I was yeah I was doing a little bit. I wrote an op ed about it you know here and I don't think I'm the one who made it happen but I've been tracking it for a while and I'm excited to see it. Axelrod: [00:46:39] So you got into a few tussles with your fellow secretary of state from the neighboring state Kris Kobach who's heading now the presents a commission to find these three to five million voters who voted illegally who nobody knows the voter suppression Committee to Re-elect the President. Kander: [00:46:59] Yes. Axelrod: [00:47:00] So tell me about Kobach and your concerns and what and your back and forth with him. He's kind of a you know he's a hero on the on the right. He's led the antiimmigrant movement from his perch in Kansas and now he's doing this. Where do you see this all going. Kander: [00:47:21] Well the commission itself has two possible conclusions that they'll reach the first and this will all be bogus and a complete fraud. But the and this is the whole purpose of it right. Well actually the original purpose was to justify the biggest lie that a sitting president ever told me when you referenced that and then it morphed into. They're going to either come up with a bunch of you know. A bunch of theatrical a bunch of theater to say that there's either an epidemic of voter fraud in the country there's not or that there's the possibility of an epidemic of voter fraud in the country and they're going to use that to try and pass more laws to make the whole country have laws that look more like those in Wisconsin for instance because that's the Ep. 178 Jason Kander 14

15 centerpiece of the president's re-election strategy. Make it harder for folks to vote. And I think that's pretty gross. And my experience with Secretary Kobach is that I mean this is a guy who when I first met him it was right after I was elected secretary of state he came to the National Association of Secretaries of State conference and at the time the administration the Obama administration was making the argument you know for as you know for more convenience of the polls that kind of thing some some federal legislation and he came in wanting all of us to sign onto a letter that would be a bipartisan letter of secretaries of state saying the federal government has no role whatsoever in elections. And now that you've got a Republican president he's headed this commission to say the federal government should tell you exactly how to do. Axelrod: [00:48:43] So you find this inconsistent. Kander: [00:48:45] I find it somewhat inconsistent. Yeah. That would be a shorter version of all that stuff I said. Axelrod: [00:48:51] So you stayed in that office for one term. Got everything you could at least Secretary of State's their knowledge and experience and decided to run for the Senate in and 16 and ran a race that was much stronger than anybody anticipated. You became sort of the fair haired boy of 2000 and 16 you lost by three points 2.8. But you know who's counting. And what did down Trump win the state. 19. So there's probably no greater gap certainly among challengers. What did you learn from that experience running for the Senate. Kander: [00:49:36] It confirmed for me. The importance of just making your argument. It confirmed for me that voters will forgive you for believing something they don't believe as long as they know you really believe it. And I think the really important part of that is that it's that and that and is and you believe it because you care about them. It can't be. This is what I believe it's what I truly believe because these people over here are my people. It's got to be this is where I believe I truly believe it. And here's how it's going to make a difference in your life. And I think that that that is one of the things that accounts for the gap. Axelrod: [00:50:09] So let me ask you. You touched on this issue of taking positions that you believe you took a few positions in the campaign that got noticed you supported a balanced budget amendment to the Constitution. Explain that and how that would work. Kander: [00:50:24] That's probably the thing I'm most wrong about when I look back at it right like I think naively I I looked at it as OK if we if if we do this thing we can force the amount for you know revenue increases on folks who are at the top end. And then as a result we'll pay for these things that are really important. And looking back I think that's naive. I think I was just wrong. I look back at it now and I think I was wrong about it. I look at this Congress they would never do that. Axelrod: [00:50:52] And you and I understand from a local standpoint that you oppose the Clean Water rule that was proposed by the EPA under Obama. Kander: [00:51:02] Yeah. That was from talking to farmers in the state. You know they were really concerned about it. They were able to take me to creeks and show me you know how it Ep. 178 Jason Kander 15