This is an interview with Margaret Dodson Griffin for In the Age of Steel: Oral Histories from Bethlehem Pennsylvania.

Transcription

1 This is an interview with Margaret Dodson Griffin for In the Age of Steel: Oral Histories from Bethlehem Pennsylvania. The interview was conducted by Donna Coco on November 7, 1975 in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. 00:00:00 This is an interview with Mrs. A.M. Griffin, on November the 7 th, 1975, at her home on 231 East Market Street, in Bethlehem. This is Donna Coco. (Pause in recording) Well first of all, I d like to know a little about your family background. Griffin: Well, my family was named Dodson, and they lived down at the corner of Market and Center [Bethlehem, PA]. My grandmother and grandfather built I don t think they built that house. I think they remodeled it. It s now the funeral home? I think, Ashton Funeral Home? (Inaudible) Griffin: And my grandfather was in the goodbye! my grandfather was in the coal business. But he was born up in one of the upper, northern counties. And when they put the canal in, he came down to import coal from up there. So, the Moravians 1 were a very tight community. I guess you found that out in your interviews. And I don t know whether I think they wouldn t let people own, other people own property in Bethlehem. It was something like that. How would you get your property, then? Griffin: I don t know. But he and his wife lived in the Freemansburg Hotel, which is still standing in Freemansburg [Pennsylvania], until finally the Moravians now, this is just what I was told as a child til the Moravians decided to open the community, and let people move in. So then they built they remodeled that house. And then, would you have to buy your property from? Griffin: Well, this is where I m very vague. I think you could find this in old records. These are just things I heard my family talking about, you know. And then did your parents live in that house, also? 1 Refers to members of a church that traces it origin to pre-reformation fifteenth-century central Europe. They settled in Bethlehem, PA in 1741.

2 00:01:45 Griffin: Ah, well my grandmother and grandfather, and two they had two daughters, Mrs. Coyle (sp?), who was very well-known in the community, and Mrs. George Reginald Radford 2, who did stay and then my father. Well, he moved when he married, and Mrs. Coyle moved when she married. But my Aunt Mary, Mrs. Radford, stayed there after the parents had died. And they lived in that house for many, many years. I remember during the First World War they used to she was very fond of the young people, and wonderful with them. And there were always soldiers coming to see her! I don t know how she got to know so many! Griffin: And she was a funny little woman. And there was an organization I don t think it s still going on called the Yo Eddies 3, and they would give, every year I think all during the war, they d give block parties there. They d close off Market Street right next to Aunt Mary s house, and they d have a really a lot of fun, you know. And was she really big in organizing this? Griffin: Oh, yeah. She was I don t think she did much work, but she went around enjoying herself. Well, did she have sons that were in the Army, too? Griffin: No, she had a little girl who died when she was three, and that s all the children she ever had, but she And she just did this because she really (inaudible)? Griffin: She loved young people. And for years, up to the time of her death, soldiers would come back with their families to see her, or write her, send Christmas cards. Were these people that she had known from the community, or just men (inaudible)? Griffin: No, I think just people that were, young men who were stationed around here, in the Army. Oh, there was a? 2 Mary Radford was the daughter of Weston Dodson the founder of the coal mining and distributing organization, Weston Dodson & Company. 3 The Yo Eddie Club was an organization active primarily during World War I devoted to patriotic service on the home front.

3 Griffin: Oh, I don t really remember that. camp around here? Griffin: But soldiers were always going through. Maybe they were stationed somewhere. Were you ever at these parties? Griffin: Well, I was only a little girl then. I was about I was born in 1909, December 1909, so I was about So when was this, about 19 [1919] or 20 [1920]? Griffin: I was about when did we go in the war? 1916 or 17 [1917], I think, weren t we? Wasn t it 1917? I think that s when it was. Griffin: And so I was seven then. They wouldn t let you stay up? Griffin: No. Oh, well this was an all-day affair, sort of like a little fair. A carnival, that kind of thing. Would they just have these every so often, or was there a special? Griffin: I don t know. I just remember it was very exciting when the Yo-eddies had a block party. I can imagine! I can imagine. 00:04:14

4 Griffin: So, and these well, my grandfather was one. He brought 2 of his brothers down to go in the business. They founded this coal company then. They imported coal, and they did own a few mines. It was called Weston Dodson Company 4, and the building is down on New Street [Bethlehem, Pennsylvania]. That s what I was wondering. Griffin: Yeah. I saw a building called the Dodson Building. Griffin: That s the building. And so, the well, Weston remodeled that house. He was the head of the company. And one of his brothers, Charles 5, built the great big old brick one across the street. Now, I can t be sure that they built them, but I think they did. And then there s a third house that s right in back of Ashton s, just across the alley, facing on Market [Bethlehem, Pennsylvania], that was built by the third brother, who was Truman Dodson 6. So it was a little family party around here. That s what were most of the activities within the family? Griffin: Well Did your parents ever talk about that? 00:05:13 Griffin: a lot like that. And well, everybody up and down Market Street, and all around here, knew each other. They had a great time. Then were yours or theirs were your friends mainly from the family and the neighbors? Or was it? Griffin: Yeah, well no, the town was pretty these people knew each other pretty well, all over town. And the Dodson s knew the Wilbur s and the Linderman s, and all the crowd from the south side. Do you think there s any special reason for that? 4 Established in 1859, Weston Dodson & Company was a coal and distribution company located in Bethlehem, PA. 5 He, along with his brother Weston, owned Weston Dodson & Company. 6 Served as Vice President of Weston Dodson & Company until his death in 1941.

5 Griffin: Well, just that they all had a good time together. They had a lot of money, all this crowd, to build those big houses! Plenty of maids, and chauffeurs, or coachmen rather, because they had horses. Did they meet through these parties and things, then, or through clubs and organizations? Griffin: I don t no, I don t think there was clubs, particularly, until they started a few. They started the Lehigh Club [Bethlehem, Pennsylvania], which is now the Lehigh Shopping Center. It s gone! (laughs) Griffin: And that was on my my grandfather had a farm out there, where we got all our fresh vegetables, and our eggs and things, which is now the shopping center. Then it was turned into the Lehigh Country Club, and Golf Club [Allentown, Pennsylvania]. They built a little golf course there. Was this while you were still a child? Griffin: Yeah, I guess so. I don t know just what year that was. Now, do you remember most of the (inaudible) families? Griffin: I don t really remember the farm. I always remember being told about it, when we d go. But I remember the Country Club, because I went to a few dances there when I was young. Well, what was your leisure time like when you were child? Like, when you would date? Griffin: Do you want me before that? We lived my family lived down on Church Street [Bethlehem, Pennsylvania], right opposite the cemetery. And the house that we lived in has since been moved back. Do you know the McGahee s 7 (sp?)? They re friends with the Pearson s 8 (sp?) No, I don t. 7 Project staff were unable to identify this person. 8 Project staff were unable to identify this person.

6 Griffin: Well anyway, it s on Church Street. And so, we used to I used to run up and down the alley. My best friend lived up here on Market Street. And the streets weren t paved. There were horses lots of horses, and wagons. Did you have a car? Griffin: We had a car from the time I was little. Were you one of the only families that did? 00:07:40 Griffin: What did well, I guess there weren t too many families with cars, because you know, they were expensive in those days. We had this nice coal company to buy the cars. But, every morning the iceman would come, and the milkman would come, and the greengrocer would come in a with vegetables. The meat the butcher would come. It was very exciting in that alley! Would they come and just leave things on your doorstep? Griffin: No. Or would you go out and say, I want this today? Griffin: You d go out and the maids would go out, and say, I want this. Although my mother was a very interested housekeeper, and she was a good she liked to cook and everything. And we also used to I used to go marketing with her. We d go up the New Street, and there was a store on New Street, near what s now the Telephone Building, and it was Billy Hayes, he was the grocer, the greengrocer. And I would take my express wagon and get hay, and lettuce, and everything, for my rabbits! 00:08:36 Griffin: And we had no horses after I was born, because I don t remember horses. That s what I was going to ask you.

7 Griffin: But there were the I think that the Radford s had horses, in the next right down here. They had a stable, and they had an old coachman who, after the horses were gone, he was the gardener. I take it the it wasn t as built up as it is now? Griffin: Well know, you know, I think most of these houses must have been here. It seems strange that you could fit a stable. Griffin: Well, they re in the alleys, see. And if you walk down any of these alleys, there are many stables. There s one right over here, and there are several and of course, some of them have been torn down, I imagine. Well what, do you think that as more families got cars, is that when they started paving the streets? Griffin: I suppose so. But I can remember on Center Street [Bethlehem, Pennsylvania] when it was such fun after a rain, because the water would come tearing down the gap, the gutter! Griffin: And we d go out in the street, and take dirt and stones, and build dams, and sail boats. And then your father would come out and want to drive, and he d be ready to kill you! 00:10:10 Griffin: Then do you mind if I go get some iced tea that I? (Pause in recording) They used to have sleigh races. Now, I never saw this, but my mother s told me about it many my mother was the one that knew all about this town, and all about everybody in it. But she would tell me all about the old days. And they would have these marvelous sleigh races right down Market Street, starting up at the very top here, I suppose at Linden, and racing all the way down with horses, this was to the top of the Market Street hill, where there was that huge statue. Did you know that statue was? No.

8 Griffin: Well, it s over now in the Rose Garden 9. I think they moved it. It s made of tin. It was a statue of the Civil War Veteran. And they put it right in the middle not in the middle. They put in on the side of Market Street, so it was a terrible traffic hazard for years! Griffin: But the story about that statue that I always remember is my father and his gang, who must have been pissed, had a few drinks or something, and went out and unveiled the statue the night before the Mayor or whoever was going to unveil it. Griffin: And when they came to unveil it in the morning, it was already unveiled! Did they ever find out that he did it? Griffin: I don t think anybody every found out, except that he and my mother would tell me about that. They thought it was a scream. (Skip in recording) And there was a great deal of interest, always, in the Pennsylvania Dutch 10 around here, and the people. My family s friends would get a huge kick out of these, of the accent, and the funny things that some of these old Dutchmen would say. Well, you said that your father was from north of here. Were there Pennsylvania Dutch around there? Griffin: No, that was my grandfather Your grandfather; I m sorry. 00:11:44 Griffin: who came down. But I remember one story my father used to tell. There was a man named John Fritz 11 who was very prominent in the steel company, in the founding of the steel company. He may have founded it, for all I know, John Fritz. 9 A park located south of West Union Blvd. between 8th and 10th Avenues in Bethlehem, PA. 10 Refers to emigrants and the descendants of emigrants from southwestern Germany and Switzerland who settled in Pennsylvania in the 17th and 18th centuries. 11 John Fritz was an early pioneer in the iron and steel industry and the father of modern professional engineering. Working at Bethlehem Steel in the 1870s, Fritz was instrumental in making the Bessemer process a success. (For information on the Bessemer process see

9 And he lived at the corner, where that church is, at Center and Market. But the house is gone. It was another huge old house. And he was very old and decrepit when this happened. A funny old Dutchman came down the street oh, well I m messing up the story. My father had a monkey that he brought from South America. And the old Dutchman would go around every day, yelling out the news. And this morning he was going around the streets, saying, Johnny Fritz is dead, and Dodson s monkey. That s a Dutch you don t get it? No, I don t get it. Griffin: Johnny Fritz is dead, and Dodson s monkey. That was my family s name, Dodson. So he was calling them both at the same time? Griffin: Yeah, he was around. That s the funny part of the story. They re both really just the same importance. Griffin: He was what you d call an unofficial town crier. He d go around and tell all the news. There s a lab at Lehigh, and it s called Fritz Lab. Griffin: Oh, well that s him. Is it named after him, do you think? Griffin: Yeah, mm-hm. Well I never knew him; he was a little before my time. And the monkey was a little before my time! How about all of these people? Did they have children that you associated with? Griffin: Now you ve got to remember that I m sort of a different generation, from some of those. That s not the right way to say it. Yes, I had a lot of Dodson cousins, and I saw an awful lot of them. Then gradually, as the steel company built up, lots more people moved to town, of course, and lived over there. The big place to live was Bonus Hill, over on Prospect Avenue [Bethlehem, Pennsylvania]. They called it Bonus.

10 Is that Fountain Hill [Pennsylvania} now? 00:13:57 Griffin: That way, Bonus. No, it s Prospect Avenue, the west side. And that s where Mr. Grace 12 built his house, and all that. Well, now I can remember Charlie Schwab 13 very vaguely. You ve heard of him? Yes, he was at the steel company? Griffin: Yeah, he was one of the founders, I guess, of the steel company. And he used to play bridge with my mother, so I can remember in the evening coming down to say goodnight, and saying good evening to Mr. Schwab. Of course, I wasn t impressed with Mr. Schwab! Did he seem to be a very imposing man, or what was he like? Griffin: I remember him because he was such fun. And Mother used to talk a lot about him. He was a very attractive man. And the other older man that I knew, and I suppose you interviewed the Archibald Johnson s 14? I ve never heard of him. They may have done so, but I ve never heard of him. Griffin: Arch Johnson s father was another the first Archibald Johnson was the first Mayor of Bethlehem. And he was a Vice President of the steel company. I don t know when he got to be Mayor, while he was Vice President or after. Since your father was involved, and your grandfather, with coal? Griffin: Yeah. Were they very closely intertwined with the steel company? 12 Eugene Grace served as the President and then Chairman of the Bethlehem Steel Corporation from 1916 to President of Bethlehem Steel whose leadership made the company the second largest steel producer in the United States. 14 Johnston became assistant general superintendent, president, and vice president of Bethlehem Steel. After the Bethlehems were consolidated, he was elected the City of Bethlehem s first mayor in 1918.

11 Griffin: No, I don t think so, because they were the old Bethlehem people were very snooty about the steel company. My mother would say, Oh, they re those new steel people. Oh! Griffin: And they were friends with people like the Warren Wilbur s, who and Linderman s, and the Packer s. I don t know; I guess Asa Packer was a little before Mother s and Father s time. He was one of the I guess he founded Lehigh, Asa Packer. Yes, he did. Griffin: They were friends of all those people over on Fountain Hill, those big old houses over there. And also, lots and lots of simpler town people that lived up and down in these nice houses around here. They knew all they knew everybody, probably. You read a lot about, like, the people with the old traditions of the old money, and then the new money coming in. Griffin: And they were snooty about And I never realized it was really like that. Griffin: Oh, sure! And did? Griffin: Very gradually, the steel company. Now nobody knows any of these people, any of my family or anything you know, the new steel people who come have never heard of the Dodsons. And so it s a completely different world. Did you shun their children? Griffin: Oh, no! I hate to use the word shun, but I mean, were you in different social atmosphere than their children?

12 00:16:41 Griffin: No, no. I think gradually, depending on as it does everywhere depending whether you had things in common and were the same kind of people. But now, that was another rather interesting thing. There was a little kindergarten down in Trinity Church 15, run by a woman named Ann Powell, Miss Powell. And we all, all the children of this circle, went to this Miss Powell s Kindergarten, and that s how we all got to know each other, really. It was more or less through our families, but that s where we played. And then Miss Powell kept us on after kindergarten, and we stayed there til we were about 3rd grade, I think. Then my family sent me to Moravian Prep. Is that what they called it in those days? I can t remember. Moravian Parochial School 16, I guess it was, which is still there. And I was there 1 year. Well then, at the time I went to Moravian Parochial, one of my cousins, an older woman, Mrs. A.C. Dodson 17, started a school. She wasn t the teacher. She and some of her friends started this school. They hired a teacher, and everybody went there. This was one teacher? Griffin: So I was kind of out of it. What? Just one teacher? Griffin: I guess so. Well, it was probably only four or five people in the school, and they had it in one of these houses of my uncle s that I tell you about, down here on Market Street. Up in my Uncle Charlie s library, they had the school. And I didn t go. My mother was in a feud with the rest of the family! They had a terrible lawsuit, which was (inaudible; bell rings) Oh, good heavens! Oh, that s the (pause in recording). telling me about your school. Griffin: Yeah, well I didn t get in this school right away, because of my family feud that was going on, this terrible, terrible lawsuit. So, (sighs) I missed out on that for a few years. But I finally got in it. And that school went on for a long time. It moved around. As it got bigger, and all the kids were going to it, they got bigger and bigger quarters, and more teachers. Did it grow in popularity just by word of mouth? 15 An Episcopal Church located in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. 16 A school once located in Nazareth, PA. 17 Allan C. Dodson was the President of the Weston Dodson & Company.

13 Griffin: Yeah! Well, you see, it was a small town, Donna, you must remember. It was really a small town, and all the people in the same social strata, I guess you d call it everybody knew each other. Yes. Griffin: And so everybody knew about Dodson Day School. Griffin: But I don t know what ever happened to it. Was Bishopthorpe [street in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania] still in existence at that time? Griffin: I wonder whether it was. I think it was just about folding up. My aunts went this Aunt Mary Radford went there, and Aunt Jane Coyle, I guess. I don t think Bishop Thorpe was going, and I think that s why we had to get some kind of a school going. Although I don t see why we couldn t have gone to the public school. It was right down here, and probably perfectly all right, but oh, heavens! They probably thought you were getting a better education? Griffin: They wouldn t have done that! Well, how about further education, then? Did you go on to college? Griffin: You know the newsboy came right along and blasted us right out of the room, practically???: (Inaudible) Griffin: Yeah, I went away to boarding school then. Where was that?

14 Griffin: And most of them went away to boarding school, and that sort of finished off the schooling. And I went to Wykeham Rise 18, which is up in Washington, Connecticut. Then I went to Smith. 19 And then did you have a career after that, or did you just get married? Griffin: No. Fortunately I met Bill and got married. Griffin: I wasn t the least interested in a career. I want to hear about this lawsuit. Griffin: Oh, no! Griffin: It s too complicated, it really and it didn t have anything bearing on the town at all. It was just It was just between family? Griffin: a family affair. 00:20:43 Well tell me, as you were a teenager, then, what type of things would you do for entertainment? Griffin: Oh boy, we had a good time! Now, you mean well, now my life changed very much, because my father left. And then my mother and I Mother sold our house. And this was about 1920, and we went to London, and we were going to live there with one of my brothers was working in London. But we only stayed a few months, and then we came back. Do you know, this is where I get a little vague. And I lived around my mother wasn t well at all, and I lived around with various aunts, and had a great time. 18 Bishopthorpe Manor was school located in Fountain Hill, Pa, with the support of the Episcopal church, that served as a seminary for young women. 19 A private four-year college for women located in Northampton, Massachusetts.

15 Griffin: I lived in Pittsburgh. What part of Pittsburgh did you live in? Griffin: Up in Squirrel Hill [Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania]. It s a lovely area. Griffin: Yeah. And, but we had a I think we had it perfectly normal. Things were not very Victorian by the time I came along. I was having dates. I lived in New York for a while, out in Pelham, and I was having dates when I was 14. So, it wasn t very dull! No! Griffin: I can t tell you. 00:21:55 Was it the usual you hear a lot about sitting around, like the boyfriend would come to your house. Was it something like that, or was it going different places? Griffin: Oh, yeah, they d always come to your house, and then you could go to the movies, or in my day we were out in the speakeasies, drinking beer. Not when we were 14, but when we were, by college age, we were down at the Maennerchor 20. You ve heard of that? No, I haven t. Griffin: Haven t you heard of the Maennerchor? No. 20 A German social club, also known as a singing society, located in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.

16 Griffin: Well, this was a fascinating place! It was an old German singing society. That word, I guess, means men s choir in German. I don t know German, but I imagine that s what it means. And they had a building down underneath what is now the big bridge. The bridge was built over it; the building was there first. And they managed to have beer all during Prohibition. I imagine all the policemen belonged to the Maennerchor, and Griffin: we had no trouble at all about that. So that s where we went every night, when I was old enough to. Everybody met at the Maennerchor. Would you go in large groups? Griffin: And then you d go to the movies, or you d come there after the movies, and so you d see everybody that you knew. And was that was it was like there? Was it a big sing-along? Did they do a lot of singing? Griffin: Well, we didn t get too involved in that, because that was it was completely different. That was the Pennsylvania Dutch people, and they had their wonderful choir, and they did wonderful singing. And they went around the country in contests. There are more of these organizations. There was one in New Haven, I know. (Clock chimes) But all the Lehigh 21 students belonged to the place. We could all everybody could join that wanted to. I don t know what it cost; not much. Did you have a lot of association with Lehigh, at the time? Griffin: Oh, sure. I had lots of friends at Lehigh. I can t remember their names anymore, but you know, they had wonderful parties in all those fraternities. Are those fraternities still going on? They sure are. They still have really good parties. 00:23:55 Griffin: We had a good time. There was an awful lot of drinking, from Prohibition on, I guess. I ve heard stories about Southside [Bethlehem], how there were a lot of gin mills and things there. 21 A private, four year university located in Bethlehem PA.

17 Griffin: Mm-hm. And do you remember much about that? Griffin: And houses of prostitution. Yes. Do you remember much about that? Griffin: Yeah, I remember my cousin taking me down one of these streets, so I could see it all. Griffin: Very exciting! Were you scared? Griffin: Sort of, you know. Was it mainly localized, in any special area? Griffin: Well yes, it was down there, near the railroad tracks. I ve forgotten the name of the streets. 3 rd Street, 4 th Street [Bethlehem, Pennsylvania]? Griffin: I imagine some of the men would know. Griffin: You can find out. 00:24:35 Well, was it frightening to go over the South Side by yourself, when you were a young girl?

18 Griffin: Oh, no, it was just one street or something. No. But I don t think I ever particularly went over. It was sort of a job to get over there in those when I was really young, you had to go over a bridge over the canal, and then a bridge over the river, and over the then you had to get across the railroad tracks on both sides of the river. And it was a long trip to the South Side, so you just didn t run over there so fast. So how about, do you remember the building at the Hill to Hill Bridge 22, then? Griffin: Mm-hm. I remember, I was going to Dodson Day School then, and it was then in Nativity Church, that year. And I was living with my Aunt Mary Radford, and her chauffeur would take us to school every morning, me and a couple friends, or some other kids in the neighborhood. And we had it was a perilous trip! You d have to wait for trains, and it was a real job to get across the river. I can imagine. Griffin: Yeah. But that changed it then, the Hill to Hill? Griffin: Oh, the Hill to Hill Bridge made a huge difference. Was there a big celebration then, because? 00:25:49 Griffin: I don t remember that. See, I was now when we would get up in our teens, I was away so much. I was away in boarding school from the time I was well, I was not I left Bethlehem when I was about 13, I guess. And so, I would be back for Christmas vacation and things. And we had now, we had something that my boys didn t have, and that was everybody would have parties, rather formal parties, at country clubs, or at the Women s Club here in town, which was John Fritz s old residence. And all wherever was big enough, if somebody had a big house. They d have a little orchestra, and we d get really dressed up, and have a dance, every night during Christmas vacation! It was really it was really exciting, in those days. Well, how about? 22 A concrete arch bridge that concrete arch bridge that passes PA 378 over the Lehigh River and is located in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.

19 Griffin: But my boys didn t have anything like that. your fashions and stuff, then? You must have really had to have an extensive wardrobe? Griffin: Well, fortunately my mother was a good sewer, (laughs) and she made me a lot of clothes. Did she make most of your clothes? Griffin: Yeah, which I didn t like. I would much rather had them from Best and Company 23, like the other girls. Do you remember what the fashions were like at the time? Griffin: Yeah, pretty much like not well of course they weren t miniskirts. I can remember a dress that I had for a tea dance. It was a lovely green satin dress, and it was normal length, maybe a little below my knee, something like that. It was pretty. You ve seen pictures of the 20 s [1920] dresses? Most of it that I remember, I thought they were still pretty. Griffin: Well, I don t remember that they were terribly short, but neither were they terribly long, except we went through one of the those periods in the 30 s [1930] where everybody was getting You had to change styles. Griffin: long dresses. We were going up and down like they do now! Just so that you can buy more clothes. Griffin: Yeah. 00:27:43 Getting tired? Let s stop for a second. (Pause in recording) Okay, you were talking about having a car, and you were one of the only families that had one? 23 Located in Greenwich, Connecticut, it was known for its women's wear and its children's clothing.

20 Griffin: Oh, no, I don t think that s right. I imagine that before I was born, my father had a car, and maybe he was one of the first. Because he was very car-minded, always got a big kick out of the whole thing. Would you use them right around the area, or would it mainly be used for longer trips? Griffin: I have pictures of all that, but they re down in the cellar, in a trunk. They used to ride around, up to the up around the coal mines, and up through the Poconos [Pennsylvania], and around. They d have a flat tire about every mile or so, as far as I can make out. Griffin: They spent most of the time getting out of the ditches, and changing the tires! That must have been almost an all-day trip, when they would go that far. Griffin: Oh, yeah. When my father used to go he was a coal salesman, his first and only job, I think. And he used to go up through the upper counties. I keep forgetting their names: Pike, and Lemoreau (sp?), and around Salingcoe (sp?), in a horse and buggy. And that was a trip. I m sure it was. That would be worse Griffin: Yeah, I was thinking. Well, I don t know what would be worse, going in a horse and buggy, or fixing a flat tire all the time! Griffin: Oh, he loved it! I don t know. But he loved the whole deal, so that was all right. 00:29:04 Well, when you were in school, then, how about, were you in a lot of clubs and organizations? Griffin: Around here? No, we didn t have anything much. Oh, what we had was a fancy dancing school. And I can remember getting ready for that; that was a big deal. It was on Tuesday afternoon. I guess I was about well, it was before I was 10, I

21 was going to dancing school, because Mother and I left when I was about 10. And we had to wear ballet slippers, and white gloves. Oh, it was a real performance! And we wore long drawers in those days Griffin: and you had to get your white stockings up over the long drawers! What a thing, getting ready. And then you d carry your little slippers in a bag. Was this all girls? Griffin: No, there were boys. And then I guess the girls didn t have to wear gloves. That was later, that I ve seen. When my boys went to dancing school, the girls wore gloves. They had it wrong, I think. The boys are the ones that have sweaty palms, and should wear gloves. Griffin: So Mr. Carpenter came from Philadelphia every week during the school term, and we all went to dancing school together. And I have friends now that I went to Miss Pal s with, and dancing school. I must admit, they re starting to drop off a little bit. A lot of them have moved away. How about organizations like in the church and stuff? Weren t they active? Griffin: I was never very churchy. (recording paused) There s a current events class going that she went to, in those days, and that s still going. And the Women s Club was very active when they had John Fritz s house, and I think they re still active. I think they meet at the YWCA now. But that s all I know about organizations. I was never much of a joiner. 00:31:27 When you talk about your mother, it sounds like she was really outgoing. Griffin: She was into everything. Yeah, like that. Griffin: She was into everything!

22 Was she very much women s lib? At that time it wasn t women s lib. Griffin: No. But suffragette or whatever it would be? Griffin: No, but her mother had been, was her mother, which was my grandmother, of course. She was a great admirer of all that crowd: Susan B. Anthony 24 and Carrie Nation 25, the temperance lady. Would she give speeches? Griffin: And my grandmother was very involved in all that. I don t think she ever gave speeches, but she used to but now, we re getting off the track, because that grandmother was from Baltimore. She wasn t from Bethlehem. And I m sure none of the Dodson family were that type. And my mother wasn t like that; she wasn t a suffragette or any of that. She was more interested in playing bridge. She was a terrific bridge player, and she was a terrific sewer, and a terrific cook, and party girl. 00:32:26 You talked about her being a good cook. That brought back when you were saying about the servants going out and getting the vegetables and things. Did you have a lot of servants? Griffin: Well, we had I guess what wouldn t have been called many servants in those days. We had a butler, and we had a now, this wouldn t be all the time. But I mean, when I was a little girl, we had a butler, and cook, who was his wife. The butler was the chauffeur, too. And we had a nurse for me, and I think we had an upstairs girl. So that wasn t many for those days, because some of those big houses had really big staffs. Was that was it was, because it was such a big house, and so much to take care of? 00:33:35 Griffin: Yeah, and because you only paid a nurse or a cook maybe 8 dollars a week. And they didn t have income taxes like we have now, so when they were making a lot of money in the coal business and the steel business, they had a lot of money to spend that way. Now, oh, there was I hope that they can find somebody to tell them about a man named Al Brodhead 26, who left 24 Famous suffragette who was also co-founder of the first Women's Temperance Movement. 25 Temperance advocate known for her vandalism in support of Prohibition. 26 Served as Director of the Northampton Country Club and left his muliti-million dollar estate to Lehigh University upon his death.

23 all his I think he left everything he had to Lehigh. He left, I imagine, all his money, and he left a lot of property, his house. And you ve heard of Broadhead Avenue. Yes, I have. Griffin: That was his family. And, but he was an old bachelor, and he was my father s best friend. The two of them had been raised together, been friends. I think they went to the same boarding school out in Lititz [Pennsylvania]. And this fellow, Albert Broadhead, was a fabulous entertainer, and he d give these terrific dinner parties! And everything would come from Philadelphia: Chesapeake oysters, and pheasants, and everything would come up on the train. We did that even when I was a little girl; Mother would order things that come on the train. Somebody d go down, meet the train, bring them up, and we d have them for dinner. But these dinner parties he gave must have been fabulous wines at every meal. Did they ever invite the children? Did you ever get to go? Griffin: Oh, no. My mother would tell me about them. Heavens, no! No children allowed. Griffin: Somewhere I have my mother s scrapbook, that tells that has wonderful things about Bethlehem in it. I home I didn t give it to the Camera Museum. Maybe it s down in the trunk somewhere. I ve got a lot of stuff like that. That stuff is so interesting. Griffin: Yeah. I was always fascinated with it. When they would write up somebody s wedding, they d have every detail, and it would be the article would be this long! Do you remember any really big gala weddings that you went to? Griffin: No, no, except all the years that we had a pretty gay time. When Bill and I were first married there were some pretty fancy weddings of the young steel company people around here. We weren t we got invited to all the weddings, but we didn t have anything like that ourselves. But there were some pretty lovely weddings. Well, there still are some pretty fancy things. Do you remember?

24 Griffin: I think at last I m running down. 00:35:56 Do you remember this must have been when you were real young but an influenza epidemic 27? Griffin: (Gasps) I certainly do! I d like to hear about that. Griffin: Well, that was really scary! We were up in Maine, my mother and I, and there was someone with I think one of my aunts was with us. We were at a place called Squirrel Island 28, and they what do you call it? They wouldn t what do you? They closed the borders of the states. What do you call that? You couldn t travel from one state to another. I know; I know what you mean. Griffin: You had to go through a checkpoint. My brother came up in this great big old Peerless touring car a great, huge thing that was open. In those days, you had those flaps you had to snap when it rained, to put the windows in? And we came down. I guess it must have been down Route 1 [Bethlehem, Pennsylvania], which nobody d come down anymore. But they d stuff me (laughs) under the blanket you know, you had blankets in the car when we d get to these checkpoints. Griffin: So they could get me home, because you weren t allowed to bring children through these various places. That must have been so scary, hiding under those blankets, waiting to be caught! Griffin: Yeah, I was terrified. And then, at that time, we had a very nice man working for us named Charlie, a black man. Of course, we called him a colored man then. And he died of influenza, in the Army. I don t know, it was right around here somewhere he was stationed. But I remember my family being terribly upset about it. And several friends of my family s died. But I was pretty little then. What year was that? 27 Between , an influenza pandemic killed somewhere between 20 and 40 million people worldwide. 28 Summer resort destination located in Maine.

25 About 1919, I think. Griffin: About Oh, that s right, it was during the war. I wonder whether I think I ve gotten it mixed up. I think when I m talking about coming down from Squirrel Island, that it was a polio epidemic. I think it probably was, and I think the flu was 1919, and the polio, the bad With the flu, were you restricted in where you could go? Griffin: No, I don t know much about that. I just remember this Charlie dying, and I remember several friends of my family. Mostly young people seemed to die from it, that I remember. 00:38:31 How about something else that might affect you, like the Depression? Did that have any do you remember much about that? Griffin: Bill and I were married in the Depression. We were married in 1935, and we had a nice little apartment down at the corner of Market and Center, on the third floor. And we paid 35 dollars a month. It was the cutest apartment! Do you wish you could go back then? (laughs) Griffin: Our income was 135, so that (laughs). That makes a big difference. Griffin: Yeah! Well, I think that s about all I can come up with. Now, there was a murder that you all ought to trace. See if they can find anything about that, with Dusolls (sp?), a man named Jack Dusolls 29. Was it right around here? Griffin: Yeah, the people lived up on High Street [Bethlehem, Pennsylvania]. I don t remember that, but that I used to be thrilled with. I just remember everybody talking about it, but I wasn t old enough to understand it all. But evidently Jack Dusolls was married to some South American girl, and she got mad (laughs) or something, and shot him. I think he died. 29 Project staff were unable to identify this person.

26 Griffin: And she had to go to jail. Oh, it was very exciting! But they must have that somewhere in the Bethlehem Globe-Times annals. 00:39:43 I bet they do. I bet they do. Well, one last question: I wondered if in any way that you felt privileged as you were growing up, more privileged than the people around you? Griffin: That s a hard one. Well, I don t think I did, because my family didn t have as much money, after this lawsuit business. We were sort of on the wrong end of the stick on the money situation. So I felt deprived (laughs) more than privileged! Aw! Griffin: Because there were an awful lot of rich people that I was exposed to all the time. So I don t think I did. See, when we had luxuries, I was quite young, and just took it for granted, and didn t think about it. But I always felt very proud of my family, about being a Dodson. I think I was a little snooty about that. And now I see just how much difference it makes! Nobody s ever heard of them! Griffin: So, it s a good joke! (laughs) (end of recording)

27 Time Topic 00:00:00 Dodson ancestry 00:01:45 Organizing block parties during WWI 00:04:14 Weston Dodson & Co. coal business 00:05:13 Other prominent Bethlehem families 00:07:40 Food deliveries and shopping 00:08:36 Horses and sleigh races 00:10:10 Civil War veteran statue 00:11:44 John Fritz 00:13:57 Remembrances of steel company executives 00:16:41 Schooling 00:20:43 Residences as a teenager 00:21:55 The Maennerchor 00:23:55 South Side drinking and prostitution 00:24:35 Crossing the river to the South Side 00:25:49 Fashions 00:27:43 Travelling by automobile 00:29:04 Dancing school 00:31:27 Mother and grandmother 00:32:26 House staff 00:33:35 Albert Brodhead 00:35:56 Influenza Epidemic, :38:31 Life during the Depression 00:39:04 Local murder case 00:39:43 Attitude towards wealth and privilege