The Ugandan Asian Archive Oral History Project An Oral History with Laila Jiwani

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1 The Ugandan Asian Archive Oral History Project An Oral History with Laila Jiwani Archives and Research Collections Carleton University Library 2016

2 Jiwani - 1 An Oral History with Laila Jiwani The Ugandan Asian Archive Oral History Project Archives and Research Collections, Carleton University Library Narrator: Laila Jiwani Researcher: Shezan Muhammedi Date: May 14, 2015 Session #: 1/1 Length: 27 minutes Location: Toronto, Ontario Abstract: Laila Jiwani was born in Masaka, Uganda before moving onward to Mbarara and then on to Kampalato attend the Aga Khan school. She stayed at an all-girls hostel in Kampala while completing her studies. Her parents joined her in Kampala when she was fifteen years old. She recalled a very pleasant childhood in Uganda. When Idi Amin came to power in December of 1970 her father acted on fears that women were being mistreated by Amin's military and sent all female family members to Rwanda. After the expulsion was announced in August of 1972, the borders were closed and Laila's father was forced to migrate to Canada without his family. When he returned to his family in Rwanda they spent some time in Nairobi Kenya establishing a business but opted for the entire family to migrate to Toronto where other relatives had already established themselves. Upon arriving in Toronto, Laila enrolled in a business administration program at Ryerson University. She remembers the struggles of being the only Ugandan at school and slowly making new friends and adjusting to life in Canada. Over the years, she's opened her own business and has been happily married with four children who have all come of age in Canada. This oral history was conducted in Laila s office in Toronto, Ontario.

3 Jiwani - 2 Shezan Muhammedi: So this is an oral history interview being done on May 14 th, yeah and I ll let you go ahead and tell me about your upbringing in Uganda. Laila Jiwani: I was born in Masaka and then my parents moved to Mbarara and I was there until I think I was up to standard five or whatever. And then I mostly remember Mbarara with my friends and everything because I had friends there and everything. And then I moved to Kampala, I didn t move I was sent to a hostel, a girls hostel to a different Aga Khan school. So I was in the hostel and that contained only a certain amount of girls and so I remember Mbarara more than Kampala because that was more of me being away from home, being homesick, you know. But Mbarara was something very good, my father had a gas station there and I guess he was well to do over there. Our house was in front of a new Jamatkhana, right opposite so it felt good everyday you d go to khane, it s compulsory to go to khane then. My school was nearby, the schools we wore uniforms, the Aga Khan uniforms, blue tunic with shirts I don t know what else to say. Shezan: Don t worry, anything you can remember. Did you have any brothers or sisters? Laila: No I was the only one, yeah an only child. That s it and after I think when I was about sixteen, fifteen, my parents even moved to Kampala then, but until then they were in Mbarara. After that all this happened, Amin kicked us out and what happened was during all this turmoil they were kidnapping all of the girls and harassing the girls and whatever, so my father sent us to Rwanda. But we were citizens so we didn t have to leave, but just because there was so much raping and all that going on, my father sent us, me and my mom to Rwanda because we had family there and it was safer. So while we were there we heard there was an announcement that even the citizens have to leave, right? And the borders were closed so we could not go back to Uganda. So we were stuck in Rwanda and my father had to leave. So he came to Canada, he waited until the last day but we couldn t get there and so he left, he came to Canada and he went to Vancouver. He went to Vancouver and he was there and as you know, Vancouver is not as cold as here [laughter] but my father, as soon as it started getting cold he would turn blue. He had this disease I don t know how many people in a million have it and he had this disease. He couldn t stay there, the doctors said if you stay here you re going to die. So he came back, he came back to Rwanda to get us and then we went to well, he couldn t go back to Uganda so he said, Okay, we ll go to Kenya and I ll start some business or something. So we went to Kenya, I studied in Nairobi but I guess he didn t find much to do so what he did was, he had already sponsored us as soon as he got here. Because we were in Rwanda and he was here, he told them his family was in Rwanda so he had already sponsored us, so our papers came. He said, I can come back, so at least you go there, at least I could start my studies here or whatever. So we had relatives in Toronto so me and my mom came to Toronto. So he stayed behind and started a business in Rwanda. Before he started his business in Rwanda he tried to go back to Uganda because all his life, his business was there, his money was there, everything was there, so he tried to go back to Uganda. When he went he saw that there were blacks living in our house and everything, he tried to get it back and he was put in jail. Yeah, he was put in jail and then I guess other Ismailis who were left there, some people were left behind they helped him get out. You know one person that really helped, we had tankers [Interruption]

4 Jiwani - 3 Laila: Okay my father used to have tankers, about ten I don t know how many tankers, right? And we had drivers so these I guess my father was in good relationship with them or something and they I remember when I was young, all these drivers sometimes would come home and my father would sort of feed them or whatever if they came at night late from wherever then my father would go drop them where they lived or something, so I knew them too. These drivers, I think there were two or three, they also helped my dad get out. Yeah, because my dad had really looked after them, he would help their family or whatever. Anyways, once he got out of the jail he went to Rwanda and he got a business there and he stayed there while I stayed here. I studied here, I went to Ryerson. Shezan: Oh nice, wow. Laila: When I came here and I went into grade eleven, so I finished and then I went to Ryerson and since then I stayed here, got married and had a family and everything. Shezan: What did you take at Ryerson? Laila: I took business administration. Shezan: That s interesting. And then, did your mom start working in Canada? Laila: My mom was she had arthritis so she was okay over there but when she came here things got worse for her. So she was having problems with her legs, her hands started to bend and everything so she couldn t work so she stayed at home. But no, my father would send us money and I would study. Shezan: And did your dad stay in Rwanda the whole time? Laila: Yes. Yeah, he would come visit us in the summer. He would come May, June, July, stay a month or so and then he d go back, or we would go visit. But he didn t come here for the winters. He sort of accumulated his days staying here in the summer, and then he got his citizenship. But when it came time for winter he left. Shezan: And were your parents born in Uganda? Laila: My father was born in Uganda, so was my grandfather. Yeah, he was born in Uganda. My mom was born in Tanzania. Shezan: So still in East Africa. Laila: Yeah, yeah. Shezan: It s really interesting that your grandfather was born in Uganda. So you have many generations of that. Laila: Yeah, and my father didn t believe until the end that he would have to leave. Shezan: He was really Ugandan at heart. Laila: And he loved the food over there, like matoke and all that, we loved it, even I miss it. Shezan: Yeah my mom misses the food a lot. Every time she talks about it she s like, The mango from home is like a mango you ll never taste here, it s so good.

5 Jiwani - 4 Laila: It s true, you miss those things. Shezan: How did you find coming to school in Canada and meeting other Canadians? Laila: I went into school my school I was the only Ugandan there and in the beginning I had problems like I would be sort of alone or whatever, but slowly I made some friends. I was okay, I had a lot of Chinese people in our school too, so they were more friendly than the whites. Otherwise I was okay, and I had I know for English I had to do summer school because I didn t do that great in English. But otherwise I was okay. Shezan: And your mom in terms of meeting other Canadians? Laila: She mostly she did go for English as a second language, she did go for that because she wanted to work. And she knew English, she has studied English, but over here it was different. Like over there we had British, and here so she found it a little difficult. And over there you don t speak English that much, so conversation wasn t that fluent and so she went to English as a second language. Then she was okay, she had to go to the hospitals a lot because of her arthritis for tests and she was okay, she was okay with speaking and communicating. Shezan: And then I guess how was coming of age? Getting married, having a family? Laila: Well I met my husband here in Canada, we got married and Shezan: Did you guys meet in Toronto? Laila: Yes we did, yes. And we got married in the silver jubilee, so it was a simple marriage because everyone was getting married at the same time. Shezan: So the jubilee was 80 Laila: 83, yeah. And then I had kids right after I got married and then I stayed home. I used to work for Royal Bank before I got married, but once I got married and had kids I stopped working and was home until AK was about, I think five when he started going five, right? When you start full day. Shezan: Full day, yeah five or six. Laila: Yeah and then I started coming to the store because my husband had the perfume store, then I started at the store helping him. But until then, I think for ten years I stayed home. Shezan: Yeah because you had all four kids right? It s busy. Laila: Yeah, it was its good. I would take them to their activities, run around, meet other parents. Its good, you meet other parents and you learn things about how to raise kids. You know when you talk to them and what they are doing, what s good, what s bad. Shezan: Exactly, yeah. How did you find that experience, meeting other Canadian parents, having your kids grow up as Canadians, did you find there was I guess a different cultural background? Where your kids maybe wondered why don t we celebrate Christmas, since that s not what we do. Laila: No, they would say, Can we have a tree? or something. And for maybe one or two years we didn t, but then we have a tree

6 Jiwani - 5 Shezan: Yeah, we do too. We just started. Laila: You do? Because you know I guess they want to be part of it and you know so they take gifts for the teacher or whatever, and we give them gifts too so they would feel good. So you know mostly we give more gifts during Christmas than at Eid. Shezan: Yeah, same for us. Laila: Same, right? Because we always have a tree and gifts for everybody. And Eid we just have some cash or something. Shezan: Yeah Eid my mom makes food and she s like, Wait until Christmas. [Laughter] Laila: Back home when it was Eid it would be holidays and we d be celebrating and everybody would give gifts, so it was different. Shezan: Very different, that s nice. I guess how would you identify yourself today if I asked you, Laila, what are you? Are you a Ugandan, are you Ugandan Canadian, are you an Ismaili Canadian? How do you answer that? Laila: I would say I m a Canadian for sure. That s my home, it s been my home for so long so you know. I would call myself a Ugandan Canadian, but more an Ismaili Canadian. Shezan: So the community must have played an important role when you came to Canada? Laila: Yeah you always went to khane or any functions, if you went out with anybody they were always Ismaili. I hardly I went out with my school friends, I went skating and stuff like that. But mostly my friends were Ismaili, even if we went skiing they used to have lots of programs for us like skiing tours and all that, which they don t do anymore. Shezan: They also had that what was it? Girl guides or boy scouts type thing in khane? Laila: They still have it. Shezan: They still do? Laila: Yeah, yeah they do have but they used to have a lot of activities even on Saturday nights they would have activities for youngsters and all that. So you know we would always be together, more Ismailis together. But these days they don t have much for youngsters. Shezan: Very different. How was adjusting to the winter? Laila: Terrible. [Laughter] You know in the beginning it was really nice to see the snow it was something that we had never seen before. I never thought that snow would be flakes, you know? I thought it was ice or something. [Laughter] So it was really beautiful to see, but cold is difficult. And I m always cold, I feel more cold than anybody so for me I don t like the winters, but I think this is the best place to live. Shezan: How have you found Canadian society in comparison to life in Uganda, when you think about it now?

7 Jiwani - 6 Laila: The thing is I don t remember much about I was a kid and I don t remember how, all I know is we used to play around and do homework and all that. But I didn t know much about interaction with like, it must have been different of course. Over there we would one thing I know is we would always go out to play, always outside. And while over here you don t let your kids out unless you are out with them. So that s a difference you know. But otherwise I think it was good, we used to go on holidays whenever I think life there was good and much simpler and you could enjoy more. Shezan: I know what you mean, someone was telling me that the quality of life was much better in Uganda, but the standard of living was less. We had a lot less in Uganda but we seemed to be way happier. I guess we just weren t used to the same materialism, hustle that you have in Canada. You did things slow and steady and if it didn t get done, it didn t get done. Laila: Yeah and my mom never worked, only my father worked over there. So over there I don t think many women worked. Shezan: Yeah, it s very different. And then did you go to the Coxwell khane? Laila: Yeah, someone was mentioning I went to the Eglington one, I think there was one on Eglington. I never knew the Coxwell one. Shezan: I think that was just a school khane. Laila: Yeah, it was. Shezan: And Eglington was also a school? Laila: Yeah it was somewhere Yonge and Eglington, I don t remember now. Shezan: What has been your involvement with the community over the years? In terms of like did you volunteer on council or anything? Laila: No I was only a volunteer before I was married I was just a volunteer. But after that with the kids and everything I never got involved because there were four of them. [Laughter] Shezan: That s more than a handful, yeah. Laila: Yeah and you know sometimes the committees want to meet at night or something. I couldn t do that with the kids. I know my sister-in-law Rosmin, she did a lot of committees, when the Aga Khan would come home and I d be home with the kids. [Laughter] Shezan: That s great. And then how do you think your kids would identify themselves? Would they say they re true Canadians? Laila: They re Canadian, true Canadians. What do you think about yourself? Shezan: Yeah, I feel like I m pretty Canadian but there are certain elements that come out when I m talking to some of my friends, and they ll ask me things like, Did you see this movie growing up? And I ll be like, No I was watching Kuch Kuch Hota Hai, that was like my favourite childhood movie. Laila: Same, in our house I think we played it every weekend. [Laughter]

8 Jiwani - 7 Shezan: Yeah so it s so funny, they used to say things and everyone had seen it. And I could quiz you on classic Indian movies and you d have no idea everyone s seen those. So that stuff was interesting, or when I used to play ice hockey and all of my friends would be like, You play hockey? And I was like, Doesn t everybody play hockey? Then I was like oh, it s because I m brown. Or my dad always remembers because we grew up in Ottawa and he was like, Every parent knew I was your dad. Because he was the only brown dad so it s obviously your dad Laila: So what does your dad do? Shezan: My dad s actually working for the train station in London, the VIA Rail station. So they re starting a curbside concierge service, so it s similar too when you get off when you re at an airport someone usually has a placard with your name on it and you go in a cab [Interruption] Laila: Because I don t remember much about it, I don t remember much. Because in the last month I know when I was there they were killing people on the street in Uganda. And we used to live upstairs and downstairs was a store, it was on the main street and some person ran with some shoes or something from the next door and the military people just shot them right there, right in front of our eyes. It was so you know when you see that yeah. At that time I know there were curfews then, when we we weren t allowed to go out after seven or something, so I remember khane was earlier and then what we did was, because it was scary, they would go at night into people s homes, right? So our family they would all get together in one place and everybody would stay together. That s what I remember. Shezan: And then your relatives were in Toronto, who were they? On your dad s side? Laila: My dad s side, his brother, but they came later. The ones we came to, he was my cousin, my dad s brother s son. He had come at the same time so they were there. Shezan: Okay, you guys were all together. So I guess he was pretty young then, was he also going to school? Laila: No, he was working and his daughter was as old as mine. You know how it is back home, my dad was his uncle, but he was older than my dad. Shezan: Okay, so yeah your dad was probably the youngest of his family. Yeah, that still happens here and there. Laila: A lot in our family anyways, your uncle is younger than you. [Laughter] So his daughter was as old as I was. They helped us get an apartment and then we stayed in an apartment. Shezan: Is there anything you wanted to add at all? Laila: I don t Shezan: No? Okay, yeah that s good. Well thank you so much for your time. Laila: You re welcome, I know I didn t

9 Jiwani - 8 Shezan: No, this is perfect, there s tons of new things that you ve told me. You re the first person I ve talked to who went to Rwanda, sponsored through there, that s a very interesting story. Laila: Oh, okay. Shezan: Because all of the people I ve interviewed have come straight to Canada, or some people went to refugee camps in Europe and then came to Canada. This is a very interesting story. Laila: We went to Rwanda, yeah because we had family there. Shezan: Do you remember what side of the family that was? Laila: My dad, the thing is what really happened was my cousin I don t know but our family was very big in Masaka. I don t know if you heard of the name Mawami, they used to call us Mawami which means king. And our family was well to do so what they did was put my cousin one of my cousins in the boot and they kidnapped him and asked us for ransom. So our family got really scared, right? That s why my dad said it s not safe at all, you know it s better if you go away from here. He had to do the business there so he stayed there. Even other members of our family, all the youngsters we all went to Rwanda because this incident happened where he was taken away for I don t know how many days. After we gave them the ransom they brought him back, so it was a lot of tension. Shezan: Yeah, of course. Did the cousins end up here in Canada? Laila: He ended up in Edmonton, I think. Yeah, he ended up in Edmonton but now I don t know I think he s in I think he s still there. Yeah, does come to Toronto, I ve seen him but I don t remember if he s moved. You know back home the families, even if you re cousins or first cousins you re all together. Over here you don t keep so much in touch. Shezan: A lot of people have told me that my cousin was like my brother, same thing I saw them every day. Laila: Yeah, even though I had no siblings, my cousin was as old as I and I always thought of him as my real brother, you know. I never thought that I had no siblings or whatever. Shezan: Yeah my mom was telling me stories of how our grandparents, our uncles, we all lived together in one big happy house. Laila: Even though you re not alone. Shezan: And khane was every day, that was just part of your life. It was rare not to go to khane. Laila: Yeah everybody would ask how come you weren t in khane. [End of transcript].

Melvin Littlecrow Narrator. Deborah Locke Interviewer. Dakota Tipi First Nation Manitoba, Canada January 18, 2012

Melvin Littlecrow Narrator. Deborah Locke Interviewer. Dakota Tipi First Nation Manitoba, Canada January 18, 2012 DL = Deborah Locke ML = Melvin Littlecrow Melvin Littlecrow Narrator Deborah Locke Interviewer Dakota Tipi First Nation Manitoba, Canada January 18, 2012 DL: This is Deborah Locke on January 18, 2012.