Freewill or Predestination? From Doug Perry, - February 4, 2007

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1 Freewill or Predestination? From Doug Perry, - February 4, 2007 I can absolutely, unequivocally say: Yes, No, Both. Huh? Yeah, you heard me, BOTH. The problem is our lack of substantial fear of the Lord and our belief that we can put God in our nice, clean, little boxes. He is bigger than we can imagine and both Freewill AND Predestination are OUR constructs, not His. I don't suspect that I can convince you, because these have been buried well entrenched deeply into doctrine and dogma for centuries. My goal isn't to convince you that I have the absolute answer either, simply that neither does ANY man. NONE of us can get our head around this all the way. The arguments come down to those two separate sides that hold to a certain subset of verses and refuse to acknowledge those verses in disagreement. The thing both sides have in common is their willingness to put God in a box and force Him into our limited understanding of how things work. My argument is that you're both right and you're both wrong. And that God is FAR, FAR bigger than the both of you, so please knock it off with the useless quarrels. Do you really think you have Him all figured out? Do you really think it's so easy? Are you really so sure that you have all the answers? If you're sure that you have God all figured out and you have the answers, then maybe you should get a bigger God. I'm pretty sure the one you have isn't nearly big enough if YOU can really know him and understand all his ways. And maybe you should get the big pride plank out of your eye. Is it possible that God could arrange a situation in which a person had two possible choices (a hungry lion and a birthday cake), but one of them was REALLY horrible and there's no way they would pick it? Sure. If they are aware of the choices and the consequences, NOBODY is going to choose the hungry lion! Even though they think they have freewill, the choices are so limited that they really didn't. They may feel some right of selfdetermination, but it's an illusion. They were going to be eating birthday cake no matter what. So if God put that question before them, did He control the outcome? Did He predestine them to be eating cake? Yes. Is there any other reasonable conclusion? If they are so mentally or emotionally deranged and suicidal as to actually choose the hungry lion over the birthday cake, don't you think God knew they would? That they were actually wanting to die and, likewise, He arranged the outcome just as surely. Were they predestined? Yes. Did they have freewill? Yes. Was the outcome assured? Yes. Is it possible that God would create a person that would have to choose between two nearly equal choices (a chocolate birthday cake and an apple pie), but God would engineer them from before the beginning of creation in such a way that the decision was JUST as predictable to Him? Yes. The guy hates chocolate. He always has. He did learn it, he didn't choose it. God made him to not like chocolate. Did God control the outcome? Yes. Dit the guy have freewill? Yes. Was it predestined? The answer has to be Yes. Job 19:8-22 (KJV) - 8 He hath fenced up my way that I cannot pass, and he hath set darkness in my paths. 9 He hath stripped me of my glory, and taken the crown from my head. 10 He hath destroyed me on every side, and I am gone: and mine hope hath he removed like a tree. 11 He hath also kindled his wrath against me, and he counteth me unto him as one of his enemies. 12 His troops come together, and raise up their way against me, and encamp round about my tabernacle. 13 He hath put my brethren far from me, and mine acquaintance are verily estranged from me. 14 My kinsfolk have failed, and my familiar friends have forgotten me. 15 They that dwell in mine house, and my maids, count me for a stranger: I am an alien in their sight. 16 I called my servant, and he gave me no answer; I intreated him with my mouth. 17 My breath is strange to my wife, though I intreated for the children's sake of mine own body. 18 Yea, young children despised me; I arose, and they spake against me. 19 All my inward friends abhorred me: and they whom I loved are turned against me. 20 My bone cleaveth to my skin and to my flesh, and I am escaped with the skin of my teeth. 21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me. 22 Why do ye persecute me as God, and are not satisfied with my flesh?

2 Is every decision and interaction a foregone conclusion and God already knows the answer and the result? Beats me. It seems like it would have to be, otherwise you end up at chaos and no more predictability, but I'm not God. If God knows the end from the beginning, if all the intersecting, interlocking, conflicting variable in the universe aren't arranged somehow, how can He prophetically predict all the players and that they'll all be in place at the end of everything? IF He knows the plans He has for you, how many plans did He evaluate before deciding on the BEST one? How many forks in the road and intersecting, interlocking decisions by others had an influence? How much of the ENTIRE system the entirety of the ENTIRE creation had to be tweaked so as to fulfill His best possible plan for you? Jer 29:11 (KJV) - 11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. Jer 29:11 (ESV) - 11 For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. It's like a computer decision tree. If this happens, then go that way. And then if this other thing happens, go that way. Yes/No, right/left, up/down plus intersections with the trees of BILLIONS of other people, plus weather, plus animals, plus prophecy that has to be fulfilled right on schedule! Tons and tons of possible end points have to be evaluated so that from ALL of them the Lord can choose the BEST possible plan that He has for you. If He knows the plans He has for you, then He must have chosen them from the subset of all possible plans for you. How can He know it's a plan for good and not for evil to give you a future and a hope unless He's played out all the possible scenarios? I wonder how long that took? And it all happened before He spoke creation into existence. Does your head hurt yet? Do you have the slightest idea what is required to even make sure you're HERE right now? If the Japanese had won at the Battle of Midway would you be here right now? If the Germans had invented the atomic bomb before the Americans? If a tornado had hit your great-grandfather's house instead of the house next door? If the snow had been one inch deeper when your Dad was driving your Mom to the hospital to birth you? Do you have ANY idea what it took to coordinate ALL of this from BEFORE the universe began so that YOU would even BE here?! Do you understand that He made you and designed you and you HAD to be born and He knows the plans HE has for you, to give you a future and a hope to bring you to an expected end. An end that He knows about, and has known about from before He spoke it all into existence. How can we truly be free agents running to and fro making bad decisions and mucking up the whole scheme of the universe and forcing God to constantly be readjusting His perfect will and His plans for us to our whims? The short answer is, it can't possibly work that way. God has it all figured out and did all along. Down to the most minute particle of space dust in a distant galaxy. Down to the rotation of every atom in every body on every person that seems to be making the wrong decision. Does that mean that we are all robots and are forced into this path like a train on rails? No. Does it mean we don't have as many options as we think we do? Yes. Does it mean we don't have to repent for anything wrong we do because God put us in a situation and made us this way and forced us to sin? No. We still have to repent. Did He know we would do whatever we just did? Yes. Did He will it? Yes. He had to or it couldn't happen. NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING happens anywhere in the Universe but that He allowed it and in fact, designed it that way from the beginning knowing that it would happen. So, if you think you have freewill you're wrong. If you think it's all predestined and you have no choices to make, you're wrong. If you think you can direct your own paths, you're wrong. Psalms 37:23 (KJV) - The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way. I don't know what it takes to become a good man, but I'm thinking that if you ever were, even for a second, then you should expect that things are being ordered before you. And if you plead the Blood of Jesus and repent for all of your sins and ask Him to wash you clean, in that moment, you're a righteous man. You may not still be twenty minutes later, but at that moment, you stand before God pure.

3 And either way, I think God is sovereign and He has it all under control and NONE of us can really know His ways. Try responding to these charges from the Lord if you dare: 2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; For I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. OK, here we go: 4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding. 5 Who determined the measures thereof, if thou knowest? Or who stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon were the foundations thereof fastened? Or who laid the corner-stone thereof, 7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy? 8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, When it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb; 9 When I made clouds the garment thereof, And thick darkness a swaddling-band for it, 10 And marked out for it my bound, And set bars and doors, 11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further; And here shall thy proud waves be stayed? 12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days began, And caused the dayspring to know its place; 13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, And the wicked be shaken out of it? 14 It is changed as clay under the seal; And all things stand forth as a garment: 15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, And the high arm is broken. 16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? Or hast thou walked in the recesses of the deep? 17 Have the gates of death been revealed unto thee? Or hast thou seen the gates of the shadow of death? 18 Hast thou comprehended the earth in its breadth? Declare, if thou knowest it all. 19 Where is the way to the dwelling of light? And as for darkness, where is the place thereof, 20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, And that thou shouldest discern the paths to the house thereof? 21 Doubtless, thou knowest, for thou wast then born, And the number of thy days is great! 22 Hast thou entered the treasuries of the snow, Or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail, 23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, Against the day of battle and war? 24 By what way is the light parted, Or the east wind scattered upon the earth? 25 Who hath cleft a channel for the waterflood, Or the way for the lightning of the thunder; 26 To cause it to rain on a land where no man is; On the wilderness, wherein there is no man; 27 To satisfy the waste and desolate ground, And to cause the tender grass to spring forth? 28 Hath the rain a father? Or who hath begotten the drops of dew? 29 Out of whose womb came the ice? And the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it? 30 The waters hide themselves and become like stone, And the face of the deep is frozen. 31 Canst thou bind the cluster of the Pleiades, Or loose the bands of Orion? 32 Canst thou lead forth the Mazzaroth in their season? Or canst thou guide the Bear with her train? 33 Knowest thou the ordinances of the heavens? Canst thou establish the dominion thereof in the earth? 34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, That abundance of waters may cover thee? 35 Canst thou send forth lightnings, that they may go, And say unto thee, Here we are? 36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? Or who hath given understanding to the mind? 37 Who can number the clouds by wisdom? Or who can pour out the bottles of heaven, 38 When the dust runneth into a mass, And the clods cleave fast together? 39 Canst thou hunt the prey for the lioness, Or satisfy the appetite of the young lions, 40 When they couch in their dens, And abide in the covert to lie in wait? 41 Who provideth for the raven his prey, When his young ones cry unto God, And wander for lack of food? 1 Knowest thou the time when the wild goats of the rock bring forth? Or canst thou mark when the hinds do calve? 2 Canst thou number the months that they fulfil? Or knowest thou the time when they bring forth? 3 They bow themselves, they bring forth their young, They cast out their pains. 4 Their young ones become strong, they grow up in the open field; They go forth, and return not again. 5 Who hath sent out the wild ass free? Or who hath loosed the bonds of the swift ass, 6 Whose home I have made the wilderness, And the salt land his dwelling-place? 7 He scorneth the tumult of the city, Neither heareth he the shoutings of the driver. 8 The range of the mountains is his pasture, And he searcheth after every green thing. 9 Will the wild-ox be content to serve thee? Or will he abide by thy crib? 10 Canst thou bind the wild-ox with his band in the furrow? Or will he harrow the valleys after thee? 11 Wilt thou trust him, because his strength is great? Or wilt thou leave to him thy labor? 12 Wilt thou confide in him, that he will bring home thy seed, And gather the grain of thy threshing-floor? 13 The wings of the ostrich wave proudly; But are they the pinions and plumage of love? 14 For she leaveth her eggs on the earth, And warmeth them in the dust, 15 And forgetteth that the foot may crush them, Or that the wild beast may trample them. 16 She dealeth hardly with her young ones, as if they were not hers: Though her

4 labor be in vain, she is without fear; 17 Because God hath deprived her of wisdom, Neither hath he imparted to her understanding. 18 What time she lifteth up herself on high, She scorneth the horse and his rider. 19 Hast thou given the horse his might? Hast thou clothed his neck with the quivering mane? 20 Hast thou made him to leap as a locust? The glory of his snorting is terrible. 21 He paweth in the valley, and rejoiceth in his strength: He goeth out to meet the armed men. 22 He mocketh at fear, and is not dismayed; Neither turneth he back from the sword. 23 The quiver rattleth against him, The flashing spear and the javelin. 24 He swalloweth the ground with fierceness and rage; Neither believeth he that it is the voice of the trumpet. 25 As oft as the trumpet soundeth he saith, Aha! And he smelleth the battle afar off, The thunder of the captains, and the shouting. 26 Is it by thy wisdom that the hawk soareth, (And) stretcheth her wings toward the south? 27 Is it at thy command that the eagle mounteth up, And maketh her nest on high? 28 On the cliff she dwelleth, and maketh her home, Upon the point of the cliff, and the stronghold. 29 From thence she spieth out the prey; Her eyes behold it afar off. 30 Her young ones also suck up blood: And where the slain are, there is she. 1 Moreover Jehovah answered Job, and said, 2 Shall he that cavilleth contend with the Almighty? He that argueth with God, let him answer it. 3 Then Job answered Jehovah, and said, 4 Behold, I am of small account; What shall I answer thee? I lay my hand upon my mouth. 5 Once have I spoken, and I will not answer; Yea, twice, but I will proceed no further. {Good answer, but too little, too late.} 6 Then Jehovah answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. 8 Wilt thou even annul my judgment? Wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be justified? 9 Or hast thou an arm like God? And canst thou thunder with a voice like him? 10 Deck thyself now with excellency and dignity; And array thyself with honor and majesty. 11 Pour forth the overflowings of thine anger; And look upon every one that is proud, and abase him. 12 Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; And tread down the wicked where they stand. 13 Hide them in the dust together; Bind their faces in the hidden place. 14 Then will I also confess of thee That thine own right hand can save thee. 15 Behold now, behemoth, which I made as well as thee; He eateth grass as an ox. 16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, And his force is in the muscles of his belly. 17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: The sinews of his thighs are knit together. 18 His bones are as tubes of brass; His limbs are like bars of iron. 19 He is the chief of the ways of God: He only that made him giveth him his sword. 20 Surely the mountains bring him forth food, Where all the beasts of the field do play. 21 He lieth under the lotus-trees, In the covert of the reed, and the fen. 22 The lotus-trees cover him with their shade; The willows of the brook compass him about. 23 Behold, if a river overflow, he trembleth not; He is confident, though a Jordan swell even to his mouth. 24 Shall any take him when he is on the watch, Or pierce through his nose with a snare? 1 Canst thou draw out leviathan with a fishhook? Or press down his tongue with a cord? 2 Canst thou put a rope into his nose? Or pierce his jaw through with a hook? 3 Will he make many supplications unto thee? Or will he speak soft words unto thee? 4 Will he make a covenant with thee, That thou shouldest take him for a servant for ever? 5 Wilt thou play with him as with a bird? Or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens? 6 Will the bands of fishermen make traffic of him? Will they part him among the merchants? 7 Canst thou fill his skin with barbed irons, Or his head with fish-spears? 8 Lay thy hand upon him; Remember the battle, and do so no more. 9 Behold, the hope of him is in vain: Will not one be cast down even at the sight of him? 10 None is so fierce that he dare stir him up; Who then is he that can stand before me? 11 Who hath first given unto me, that I should repay him? Whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine. 12 I will not keep silence concerning his limbs, Nor his mighty strength, nor his goodly frame. 13 Who can strip off his outer garment? Who shall come within his jaws? 14 Who can open the doors of his face? Round about his teeth is terror. 15 His strong scales are his pride, Shut up together as with a close seal. 16 One is so near to another, That no air can come between them. 17 They are joined one to another; They stick together, so that they cannot be sundered. 18 His sneezings flash forth light, And his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning. 19 Out of his mouth go burning torches, And sparks of fire leap forth. 20 Out of his nostrils a smoke goeth, As of a boiling pot and burning rushes. 21 His breath kindleth coals, And a flame goeth forth from his mouth. 22 In his neck abideth strength, And terror danceth before him. 23 The flakes of his flesh are joined together: They are firm upon him; They cannot be moved. 24 His heart is as firm as a stone; Yea, firm as the nether millstone. 25 When he raiseth himself up, the mighty are afraid: By reason of consternation they are beside themselves. 26 If one lay at him with the sword, it cannot avail; Nor the spear, the dart, nor the pointed shaft. 27 He counteth iron as straw, And

5 brass as rotten wood. 28 The arrow cannot make him flee: Sling-stones are turned with him into stubble. 29 Clubs are counted as stubble: He laugheth at the rushing of the javelin. 30 His underparts are like sharp potsherds: He spreadeth as it were a threshing-wain upon the mire. 31 He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: He maketh the sea like a pot of ointment. 32 He maketh a path to shine after him; One would think the deep to be hoary. 33 Upon earth there is not his like, That is made without fear. 34 He beholdeth everything that is high: He is king over all the sons of pride. If you have any sense at all, you'll respond as Job did: 1 Then Job answered Jehovah, and said, 2 I know that thou canst do all things, And that no purpose of thine can be restrained. 3 Who is this that hideth counsel without knowledge? Therefore have I uttered that which I understood not, Things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. 4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak; I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. 5 I had heard of thee by the hearing of the ear; But now mine eye seeth thee: 6 Wherefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes. By the way, that was Job 38:2-42:6 (ASV). If you think that you are big enough to tell God that He can't predestine us AND give us freewill at the same time, you're too big for your britches. Better pray for more fear of the Lord. If you think you can get your head around what He is doing with the whole of creation and why and how, you're too full of yourself. We are here and we are His and we need to obey all the time. That's all you need to worry about. And if you think YOU are big enough to get in His way then you're just making this about YOU. If you heard all that loud and clear, then repent in dust and ashes. Haven't had enough, huh? OK, try this: Romans 8:29-30 (KJV) - 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Acts 4:26-28 (KJV) - 26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. 27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. Eph 1:4-14 (KJV) - 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Matt 8:8-13 (KJV) - 8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. 9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. 10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 11 And I say unto you, That many shall

6 come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour. Jesus understand that He is under authority and He is only doing what the Father wills so that all the Father intended could be fulfilled. If we are sons, why are we any different? And why are we any less a fulfillment of prophecy than Jesus? Maybe there's less written about me in the Bible, but God knew me and planned me and ordered my steps from before the Universe began. You are a fulfillment of His intentions and plans, just the same as your brother Jesus was/is. Gal 4:1-11 (ASV) - 1 But I say that so long as the heir is a child, he differeth nothing from a bondservant though he is lord of all; 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the day appointed of the father. 3 So we also, when we were children, were held in bondage under the rudiments of the world: 4 but when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 that he might redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 So that thou art no longer a bondservant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God. 8 Howbeit at that time, not knowing God, ye were in bondage to them that by nature are no gods: 9 but now that ye have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how turn ye back again to the weak and beggarly rudiments, whereunto ye desire to be in bondage over again? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and seasons, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest by any means I have bestowed labor upon you in vain. Ex 21:1-6 (ASV) - 1 Now these are the ordinances which thou shalt set before them. 2 If thou buy a Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. 3 If he come in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he be married, then his wife shall go out with him. 4 If his master give him a wife and she bear him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself. 5 But if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: 6 then his master shall bring him unto God, and shall bring him to the door, or unto the door-post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever. If we are bondservants, then we are slaves that had a chance to be free and then decided to stay anyway. No more opportunity to be released. Permanent slaves to a master who has pierced our ear and called us his own. How much freewill does a bondservant get? Are we not slaves to Christ? Yes. We are slaves. We are servants. Nearly all of the Epistles start with an acknowledgment of the servanthood of the writer. Servants don't get to self-determine. Are we not Sons and joint heirs and living in liberty? Are we not free from the law of sin and death? Are we not to seek Him and follow after His ways? Are we not inheritors of all the promises of God unto those He loves? Yes. We are sons. Both. Argue all you want, it's not going to change anything. Just shut up and obey and let Him sort it all out. Eccl 12:8-13 (KJV) - 8 Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity. 9 And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs. 10 The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth. 11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd. 12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. That's all there is to it. He never instructed us to try to figure Him out just to obey Him and revere His Holy Name.