Whose Final Order? Discussions with IRM. By Bhima das

Transcription

1 Whose Final Order? Discussions with IRM By Bhima das On November 14, 1977, His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, ISKCON Founder-Acharya, passed away, leaving the Hare Krishna movement (International Society for Krishna Consciousness or ISKCON) in the hands of his young disciples. Five months prior to his departure, he dictated the following letter, addressed to the ISKCON leadership. This letter of July 9, 1977 has come to be called The Final Order because it is the last written directive on the matter of initiating disciples. In the letter, Srila Prabhupada named 11 persons and authorized them to act as rittvik -representative of the acharya. The letter is reproduced below.

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3 Whose Final Order 3 Here is the letter, retyped. This letter was written by Tamal Krsna Goswami as dictated by Srila Prabhupada, dated July 9th, The original bears Srila Prabhupada s signature at the bottom left corner. To All G.B.C. and Temple Presidents July 9th, 1977 Dear Maharajas and Prabhus: Please accept my humble obeisances at your feet. Recently, when all of the GBC members were with His Divine Grace in Vrindavana, Srila Prabhupada indicated that soon He would appoint some of His senior disciples to act as "rittvik"-representative of the acharya, for the purpose of performing initiations, both first initiation and second initiation. HisDivine Grace has so far given a list of eleven disciples who will act in that capacity: His Holiness Kirtanananda Swami His Holiness Satsvarupa das Goswami His Holiness Jayapataka Swami His Holiness Tamal Krishna Goswami His Holiness Hrdayananda Goswami His Holiness Bhavananda Goswami His Holiness Hamsadutta Swami His Holiness Ramesvara Swami His Holiness Harikesa Swami His Grace Bhagavan das Adhikari His Grace Jayatirtha das Adhikari In the past Temple Presidents have written to Srila Prabhupada recommending a particular devotee's initiation. Now that Srila Prabhupada has named these representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple. After considering the recommendation, these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada by giving a spiritual name, or in the case of second initiation, by chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as Srila Prabhupada has done. The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative. After the Temple President receives a letter from these representatives giving the spiritual name or the thread, he can perform the fire yajna in the temple as was being done before. The name of a newly initiated disciple should be sent by the representative who has accepted him or her to Srila Prabhupada, to be included in His Divine Grace's "Initiated Disciples" book. Hoping this finds you all well. Your servant, Tamal Krishna Goswami Secretary to Srila Prabhupada Approved: A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

4 Whose Final Order 4 This letter of July 9 th, 1977 is at the center of a controversy, because ISKCON has said that Srila Prabhupada must have meant for the rittvik initiations to go on only up until the date of his departure on November 14 th the same year, and that any and all new initiates from that time are not the disciples of Prabhupada, but of ISKCON gurus or ISKCON the society; whereas a large contingent of devotees note that Prabhupada did not indicate that the initiation process was to be any different after he was gone, and that this is the final written instruction on the matter of initiations and must be accepted as his Final Order. The proponents of rittvik initiations call for the new initiates to be recognized as disciples of Srila Prabhupada. At the heart of the rittvik supporters is the understanding that Srila Prabhupada is the spiritual master, and the new initiates are his disciples, but there are differences in ideology amongst the rittviks, and they have not been able to pull together to form a unified movement or society. In 1993, Hansadutta das published a collection of letters and papers under the title Srila Prabhupada, His Movement and You. This was circulated amongst ISKCON and greater ISKCON devotees who follow Srila Prabhupada but do not accept current ISKCON leadership. The publication is now out of print, but can be found online at Hansadutta s website The Bhaktivedantas : The letter of July 9 th, 1977 was included in this publication, and for many devotees it was the first time they had laid eyes on it. At the same time, Hansadutta instructed all those disciples whom he had initiated previously to regard Srila Prabhupada as their spiritual master, and he began to initiate new disciples on behalf of Srila Prabhupada. Thus Hansadutta has understood the order of Srila Prabhupada, as given to him personally in the letter of July 9 th, 1977 and in two subsequent letters addressed to him personally on July 10 th, 1977 and July 31 st, 1977 and is demonstrating it practically. Lately a devotee in Seremban, Mr. Gunalan Krishnan, forwarded to us an exchange between himself and IRM (ISKCON Reform Movement), in which Krishna Kant Desai of IRM claimed that Hansadutta was not qualified to act as rittvik representative of Srila Prabhupada. This is the discussion that followed. My purpose in publishing it is not to perpetuate a quarrel, but to clarify the IRM s position and especially to bring to the attention of the devotees that Srila Prabhupada s letter of July 9 th, 1977 is clear and leaves no room for interpretation or second-guessing. Hansadutta is initiating disciples of Srila Prabhupada on that authority. Other rittviks have taken it on their own heads to go ahead and initiate. It s not my intention to pick a quarrel with any one of them. Let everyone do as he likes. But Hansadutta was named by Prabhupada personally and authorized to initiate on his behalf, and he is doing so. I hope IRM will acknowledge Hansadutta is authorized to act as rittvik representative, but the main thing is that Prabhupada recognized him as such and gave him the order. It is not IRM s Final Order, but Prabhupada s Final Order for all of us. Readers can write to KRSNA World or give me a call for more information: KRSNA WORLD 602 Taman Sentosa Off Jalan Payamas Tangkak, Johor Malaysia Tel: bhima@pc.jaring.my Please visit Hare Krishna Malaysia at and The Bhaktivedantas at All glories to Srila Prabhupada! Bhima das 13 January 2008

5 Whose Final Order 5 IRM rejects Hansadutta The from IRM forwarded to us by Mr. Gunalan Krishnan From: IRM <irm@iskconirm.com> To: Gunalan Krishnan Subject: RE: Hansdutta Dasa the only bonafide Rittvik and BBT Trustee currently.. Date: Fri, 7 Dec :25: You are correct that originally Hamsaduta was authorized by Srila Prabhupada to be a GBC, a sannyasi and Ritvik. However he renounced all of these positions by first perpetrating the guru hoax and then falling down. I notice that you do not claim he is still a sannyasi, since he abandoned this position. Similarly he is no longer a ritvik, since he also abandoned this position as well. If it is possible for a person to retain any position regardless of gross misconduct, then we may as well accept him as a sannyasi, and also accept temple presidents who run off with the temple s money as still being temple presidents etc. What you are actually proposing is a brand new principle with wide ranging implications for the whole world, that: A person once appointed to a position, will always retain that position regardless of what he may do. Obviously we cannot only apply this new principle to the position of ritvik, and only for Hamsaduta, just because you say so; we must apply it across the board for all positions and all people. So you need to: first establish that this new principle of yours is indeed in true; and if so, (1) why we cannot apply it to all positions and all people. (2) I look forward to receiving your evidence for (1) and (2). Thank you. Note: This (above) was received by Mr. Gunalan, who had already exchanged s as follows: From: Gunalan Krishnan Sent: Thursday, November 22, :45 PM To: IRM Subject: issue 16 received This is a confirmation that issue 16 had been received. If ISKCON is represented by unbonafide gurus, the IRM is represented by unbonafide rittviks. Hansadutta Dasa is the only bonafide Rittvik and BBT Trustee currently. Please visit Bhaktivedantas web site and read Srila Prabhupada,His Movement and You. Then: IRM <irm@iskconirm.com> wrote: Since you claim that Hamsaduta is the ONLY bonafide disciple of Srila Prabhupada, you will obviously know WHEN he became this ONLY bona-fide disciple otherwise you could not

6 Whose Final Order 6 make this claim. So pray tell us, on what DATE, did Hamsaduta suddenly become the ONLY bona fide disciple of Srila Prabhupada? Thank you. Finally: From: Gunalan Krishnan Sent: Saturday, December 01, :44 PM To: IRM Subject: Hansdutta Dasa the only bonafide Rittvik and BBT Trustee currently.. According to the July 9Th 1977 letter 11 of the senior disciples supposed to act as Rittvik but after Srila Prabhupadas departure they became full blown gurus, they self title themselves His Divine Grace Jayapataka Swami Acaryapada, His Divine Grace Hirdyananda Dasa Gosawami, His Divine Grace Hansadutta swami and the list goes on.in 1980 s ISKCON underwent dark history, gurus began to fall, you should know all these. As for Hansadutta Dasa he fell from his Sannyasi s position so the GBC had him excommunicated in 1983 (please read Srila Prabhupada, His Movement and You at the Bhaktivedantas web site), for 10 years Hansadutta Dasa island himself, in 1992 tried to associate back with ISKCON but welcomed with many rules and regulations. So Hansadutta Dasa formed his own society Nam Hatta World Sankirtan Party (now Bhaktivedantas) In 1993 Hansadutta Dasa as instructed by Srila Prabhupada became a Rittvik and surrendered all the disciples (which Hansadutta Dasa initiated) to Srila Prabhupada, Hansadutta Dasa repented ( the guru role he had taken formerly) and challenged ISKCON gurus to surrender their guru titles. As Srila Prabhupada states in the Bhagavad Gita As It Is(1972) text 30 purport : The material contamination is so strong that even a yogi fully engaged in the service of the Lord sometimes becomes ensnared; but Krsna consciousness is so strong that such an occasional fall down is at once rectified.therefore the process of devotional service is always a success. No one should deride a devotee for some accidental fall down from ideal path, for, as is explained in the next verse, such occasional fall downs will be stopped in due course, as soon as devotee is completely situated in Krsna consciousness. Srila Prabhupada spent 12 years loaded with many work, do you expect that 11 of the senior disciples to be perfect? First time KC went to the west and many of Srila Prabhupada disciples are westerners, when they put to the test they felldown. Even Srila Bhaktisiddhanta s Indian disciples went astray. Even if IRM devotees who talking out loud now against ISKCON will fell down at that time. So it s time to rectify the mistakes done and accept the bonafide leader and cooperate. IRM should accept Hansadutta Dasa as a leader and cooperate. That would be a large group and more powerful, in due time ISKCON will be automatically reformed, because Srila Prabhupada s bonafide instruction is followed. Currently IRM not bonafide, the Rittviks they self-elected. ISKCON gurus found no more having this His Divine Grace titles, so they are not gurus and not Rittviks, what are they now? Hope to hear your comments. Thank You

7 Whose Final Order 7 Dear IRM - Back to Prabhupada s Order Posted on December 26th, 2007 by Bhima das Dear IRM Krishna Kant Desai: Please don t be offended, but I have to ask, Who are you and what is your standing? In the first place, who is this person replying on behalf of IRM? Is it you, Krishna Kant? Please identify yourself. How do we know that this reply is not coming from just any Tom, Dick or Harry? If it is representative of IRM s official stance, then please put your name and signature to it. (For that matter, what is the hierarchical structure of IRM? Who s in charge? Is there any such thing as official stance? How do we know that any one of the IRM devotees is speaking with authority and not just off the top of his head? Then we have to ask, Where does IRM derive its authority?) Assuming that the author of the below is you, Krishna Kant, we ask What is your standing to denounce Hansadutta as unfit to act in the capacity that Srila Prabhupada ordered him to? Who has authorized you to interpret or otherwise bypass Srila Prabhupada s Final Order and challenge that Hansadutta has no right to act according to it? The order of the Acharya still stands Maybe you think that you accept the principle behind the letter of July 9th, 1977 that Srila Prabhupada wanted initiations to be carried out by rittvik but you cannot accept the specific instructions in practice because the persons named in the letter have disqualified themselves. But if this is your idea, it means that you are imposing your conditions, and in fact you do not consider the directive to be wholly valid or applicable or relevant, but only partly so. And if you deny that the order is entirely valid or deny the right of those bound by it to execute it, then you place yourself in the same class with those whom you accuse of having neglected and disobeyed the order. As for Srila Prabhupada s directive dated July 9, 1977, the order still stands. Failure to act on the instruction of the spiritual master does not render the instruction impotent or null and void. Nor is the order of the Acharya subject to a statute of limitations. It is presumptuous to say that Hansadutta and the others threw away any right to the post of rittvik representative of the Acharya by failure to act or by disobedience of the order. It s not left to you and me to decide who is qualified or who is not. Prabhupada named names. When Tamal Krsna suggested that Prabhupada might also deputize Brahmananda (one of the earliest disciples of Srila Prabhupada), Prabhupada replied, Not unless he is fit. What was Prabhupada s criteria for his selection of these men? He did not say. How can we surmise from this that we can fill the post ourselves or that anyone else will be suitable for the job? It is up to those men whom Prabhupada designated to take up the order or continue to disregard it. As far as we can see, their failure to do so is their only disqualification. But right now, if any one of those persons who were named by Prabhupada (and who are still alive today) were to come back to it, who are we to prevent them? Think for a minute, what does

8 Whose Final Order 8 that make us if we discourage or hinder a disciple from carrying out the order of the spiritual master? It s too late for some (Jayatirtha, Tamal) and highly unlikely for some others, but Hansadutta has come back to that order, and he has demonstrated his submission to Prabhupada without reservation and duplicity. Before you, Krishna Kant, had even heard of the July 9th letter, Hansadutta had published it in Srila Prabhupada, His Movement and You, and indeed, from that time Hansadutta has taken on the role of rittvik representative of the Acharya, personally authorized to do so by Srila Prabhupada. You and many of the IRM devotees are young and have no firsthand knowledge of Srila Prabhupada s dealings with his disciples, but in his letters and conversations there are so many examples where Prabhupada encouraged disciples who had fallen from the standard to resume their duties, take up where they had left off and accepted them back in good standing. 1 Besides that, we can look at the life of Srila Prabhupada and see that whereas Srila Prabhupada received the order from Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur to preach the science of Krishna consciousness to the West when he was a young man, more than 40 years passed before he arrived in America. We can understand that he spent all those years inbetween contemplating that order, preparing to execute it. His godbrothers, however, regarded him as a dirty grihastha this by Prabhupada s own admission. Why? Because he was not an active, full-time participant in the Gaudiya Math. It s not much of a stretch to imagine that some shallow persons might have thought that because he did not immediately take up the order of the spiritual master, then he was either neglecting or disobeying it and therefore asara. A condensed history My point is that just maybe we are wrong to presume that every one of those eleven senior disciples whom Prabhupada named as his rittvik representatives deliberately conspired to disobey and misconstrue his instructions. In the interest of truth, we have to allow for the possibility that at least some of them did not fully comprehend the import of that letter or its significance at the time, and were thus misguided or mislead by the persuasions of Tamal and Satsvarupa. This letter was kept on file for more than 10 years without anyone s recollection of it or making the connection between it and Srila Prabhupada s designs for continuing to initiate disciples. Many devotees were not even aware of the letter s existence. Even supposing worse-case scenario someone or all of them did understand what that letter meant and nevertheless chose to ignore it, what can be the objection to one s endeavor to rectify the wrong? Over and over, Prabhupada reiterates, Not that one mistake has been done, you should continue. Rectify it. If anything, the devotee community should come forward to lend support and cooperation to such a sincere devotee, rather than jealously block the way to carry out the order. Hansadutta has admitted that he was infected with pratistha, ambition, and therefore when he learned that he had been designated rittvik representative of the Acharya, at the time he felt a bit perplexed and even disappointed, as in But we re doing this already, so what? Five months later Prabhupada was gone, and the letter was interpreted to mean that these eleven persons had been singled out by Prabhupada to initiate which was true but it was taken 1 Rupanuga reinstated You have asked about Rupanuga. So I have asked him to not remain secluded but to work vigorously as grihastha now that he has returned with his wife. There is nothing wrong in his preaching as you are and so many GBCs, as grihastha. So although it is officially a falldown from sannyasa, there is no loss if he will become more enthusiastic by this way. So please continue to cooperate with him and implement all our regular programs. (Letter to Damodar - Paris, 8 June 1974, )

9 Whose Final Order 9 a step further that the new initiates would be their disciples, thus they became gurus. It is easy to see where this idea came from in the conversations that comprise the so-called appointment tapes, but it required instant elevation from senior disciple to pure devotee, and this was to prove too tricky to pull off for very long. In 1978, when I was initiated by Hansadutta in Mayapur, he told me, I am not actually the guru, but I m initiating you on behalf of Prabhupada, and Prabhupada is your spiritual master. On a number of occasions between 1978 and 1983 Hansadutta did speak up that he was not qualified to be guru and that his disciples should worship Prabhupada. When Tamal Krsna confessed at the Pyramid House in Topanga Canyon that Prabhupada had never appointed any of them to become gurus, Hansadutta straightaway had the talks transcribed and brought them to the attention of the devotees in Berkeley, again asserting that he had no qualifications to be spiritual master, and that the devotees should regard Srila Prabhupada only as their spiritual master and understand that he was acting only on behalf of Srila Prabhupada. Hansadutta s outspoken views on this matter and other goings-on in ISKCON and BBT affairs unnerved his fellow guru and GBC godbrothers, who banished him into isolation. His defiant return and subsequent falldown from sannyasa and at the same time, Jayatirtha s deviations were a great embarrassment threatening the credibility of the guruship and had to be dealt with swiftly and decisively. Thus Hansadutta was ousted from ISKCON GBC and ISKCON the society in By 1989 ISKCON gurus were falling down right, left and center, and reinitiations were rampant. Around this time, Rupa Vilasa and Karnamrta Prabhus began to publish a magazine (under the auspices of Nityananda das) called Vedic Village Review, calling for ISKCON reform and the resignation of all GBCs, and over the next few issues, discussion turned from the topic of ISKCON s policy of reinitiating all those disciples of the ex-gurus to the suggestion that Srila Prabhupada should be acknowledged as the spiritual master of all, and that others were siksa gurus, not diksa gurus, that ours is a shiksha sampradaya. And then Gauridas Pandit happened to recall a conversation in which Srila Prabhupada used the words rittvik acharya. The VVR editors caught on to it, and brought it for discussion as an alternative to the guru-acharya system practiced in ISKCON then. The idea was bounced back and forth, evidence given for and against from snatches of conversations, hearsay and tracts from Srila Prabhupada s books. But then, in 1990, the letter of July 9th, 1977 was resurrected and published in VVR. Hansadutta had taken an interest in the discussions, and when this letter appeared, he at once understood its significance. It was an epiphany, an affirmation of realizations that had come to him over the years in sorting out his own spiritual jigsaw. Hansadutta followed developments closely, as did ISKCON GBC, who sought to put down the rebellion with a fatwa against VVR and its editors and all further discussion on the proposed rittvik system. Yet the debate raged. Unfortunately, Rupa Vilasa and Karnamrta had a falling out, and the Vedic Village community more or less disbanded. But by this time, Hansadutta was intent on establishing the rittvik system and more importantly Srila Prabhupada as not only the head of ISKCON but as the Sampradaya Acharya. He enlisted our assistance to publish a compilation of his letters and papers, Srila Prabhupada, His Movement and You. This was in the year At that time, he initiated a number of devotees, and asked me and my wife to sit in on the fire sacrifice also. I asked him then, But at the time of my initiation you already did tell me that you were initiating me on behalf of Srila Prabhupada. Hansadutta replied, Yes, but this is to confirm that now. Hansadutta s detractors have scoffed that he is merely an opportunist who, when the rittvik train came through, hitched a free ride just to promote himself and at the same time lash out at ISKCON, but Hansadutta says that he is determined to rectify his mistakes and set Srila Prabhupada s movement back on track, at least as far as he is capable. With this aim in mind, he published Srila Prabhupada, His Movement and You, followed by Gopimania, in answer to ISKCON GBC and gurus flocking to Narayana Maharaja, and he stood up to ISKCON and BBTI to defend Srila Prabhupada s Bhaktivedanta Book Trust and fight the changes to Prabhupada s books something IRM failed to see the importance of and never contributed any effort towards.

10 Whose Final Order 10 Falldown from Sannyasa It has been 24 years since Hansadutta fell from sannyasa and married. It happened long ago. You and others may insist that it is an unpardonable offence or that the only atonement is suicide or ostracizement or whatever you like, but Prabhupada set a different precedent in the case of a number of his disciples who fell from sannyasa. See footnotes 1, 2, 3 and 4. 2 Instructions re sannyasis who fall down Prabhupada: No, no. Why not take this Suppose he is attracted by some woman. Let him dress like a gentleman and keep with the woman as husband and wife and preach. What is the wrong there? Whatever is done, you close up that chapter. Now you become a householder. There is no harm. And live as a gentleman householder and preach. But don t play duplicity in the dress of sannyasi to keep private relations. That is not good. That is duplicity. Better openly become a respectable householder and serve Krishna. Our service is main thing, either in this dress or that dress. So if you cannot keep yourself sincerely as a sannyasi, then get yourself married. But you cannot keep the girl as friend. That is also not good. Jagadisa: But for Brahmananda, he may remain sannyasi? Brahmananda? Prabhupada: That is his choice. But we say that Don t be hypocrite. That s all. If he thinks now he ll be able to continue as a sannyasi, he ll not fall down, he ll be careful, let him continue. That will depend on his sincerity. But I say that if you cannot remain as a sannyasi, get yourself married, live like a gentleman and serve Krishna. Why should you give up Krishna s service? That is my point. As you want to live, any way, comfortably, do it. We never condemned grihasthas. If sannyasa is not suitable for you, you remain as a grihastha. What is the wrong there? (Discussion on Deprogrammers - January 9, 1977, dc.bom) 3 More instructions re sannyasis who fall down And this kind of hypocrisy they have taken sannyasa and mixing with woman. This is not to be allowed. If you want woman you get yourself married, live respectfully. We have no objection. But this hypocrisy should be stopped. There have been so many fallen down. First of all there will be no sannyasi anymore. I have got very bad experience. And at least, we are not going to create new sannyasis. And those who have fallen down, let them marry, live like respectable gentlemen. I have no objection. After all, young man, fallen down that s all right. It is by nature s way. But marry that girl. That I am insisting from the very beginning, that no friendly liaison. (Conversation - January 7, 1977, Bombay, rcbom) 4 Atonement for a sannyasi who falls down Vishnujana: Srila Prabhupada, how did Chota Haridasa achieve perfection by killing himself after apparently pouring water on his devotional creeper by talking to a woman? Prabhupada: His instance was that even an associate of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu can fall down. And if one falls down, his punishment is that, suicide. There is no other punishment. He must commit suicide. This is Chaitanya Mahaprabhu s instruc. Otherwise he is Chaitanya Mahaprabhu s personal servant. He cannot fall down. But Chaitanya Mahaprabhu showed this instance that Even one is My personal servant, he can fall down. And if anyone by any cause he falls down, his punishment is he must commit suicide. This is instruction. Tamala Krsna: Very strict. Prabhupada: Oh, yes. You have fallen down? You must commit suicide. No more My association. Pusta Krsna: Is that the same as in the Bhagavad-gita where Krsna says, For one who is honored, dishonor is worse than death? Prabhupada: Yes. That is another thing. Chaitanya Mahaprabhu personally taught this. To be victimized by maya is possi. There is possibility. Just like Jaya and Vijaya. They were gatekeepers in the Vaikuntha. They also fell down, Hiranyakashipu. So this falldown, there is possibility in any moment because we are very small. We can be captivated by maya at any moment. Therefore we shall be very, very careful. And if you fall down, then punishment is you make suicide. That s all. Then next life we shall see. Satsvarupa: But Srila Prabhupada, in The Nectar of Devotion it says devotional service is so pure that there s no prayashchitta necessary. Just again engage in your service. Prabhupada: Yes. This is not prayashchitta. This is exemplary punishment. He was not liable to be punished, but they played that This is the. This should be done. Guru-krpa: He did not kill himself immediately. He waited for a year. Prabhupada: He was waiting if Chaitanya Mahaprabhu would accept him again. But when he saw that Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is not so lenient, he

11 Whose Final Order 11 Your argument that Hansadutta has renounced all his positions by perpetrating the guru hoax and then falling down is fallacious. First of all, what is the basis for asserting that his sannyasa, GBC position and appointment as rittvik representative were contingent upon the other? He did certainly abandon sannyasa, but he undertook to do the honest thing and married. According to Prabhupada, this was not grounds for removing a disciple from his appointed service in preaching. Why you should cite his fall from sannyasa as disqualification when Srila Prabhupada did not find it so in the case of other disciples? You further argue that once given up or lost, a position cannot be resumed. Where is the evidence for this? Srila Prabhupada s conversations and letters (many not merely the few citations below) refute your argument. What you and I think and say is worthless. Please let us refer to Srila Prabhupada as the authority. You wrote: If it is possible for a person to retain any position regardless of gross misconduct, then we may as well accept him as a sannyasi, and also accept temple presidents who run off with the temple s money as still being temple presidents, etc. What you are actually proposing is a brand new principle with wide ranging implications for the whole world, that: A person once appointed to a position, will always retain that position regardless of what he may do. Hansadutta has in his lifetime many times over demonstrated his faith and loyalty to Srila Prabhupada. He has dedicated his life whole-heartedly to Prabhupada, and although he fell in the line of duty, it is up to Prabhupada and Krishna to adjudicate the matter not up to you and me. Prabhupada s leading men made many serious mistakes, and Prabhupada was constantly correcting them, but he did not easily let them give up their duties; instead he urged them to accept their responsibilities and continue their service without interruption. Hansadutta does not for a day live without regretting his mistakes; he has suffered the consequences. Yet it is somehow not satisfactory to you that he should be allowed to pick up his duties and make things right. Srila Prabhupada s heart is not so small as yours, and the evidence is there in hundreds of letters and conversations. Ask Rupanuga and Brahmananda, Gurukrpa, direct recipients of Prabhupada s mercy. Have you done one iota service for Srila Prabhupada that can compare to what Hansadutta did when Prabhupada was here and in all that time since? What is this holier than thou attitude? Are you and I exempt from falling down? Let s say you were to fall down, would you rather face Prabhupada and pick up your spiritual life again or be subjected to the measures you propose for others, no service, no trust? My turn to find fault In your book The Final Order, so named for Srila Prabhupada s directive dated July 9, 1977, you claim that document to be the basis for your position on rittvik initiations, yet in truth you do not accept that letter in its entirety, as it is, because you do not acknowledge and accept that Hansadutta is a qualified rittvik representative of Srila Prabhupada. Prabhupada deputized eleven men. At this time, one is acting on that order, yet you dismiss him together with the other ten. From this rejection arise the questions how to implement rittvik initiation and who is qualified to initiate and what is the role of the rittvik. Whereas Srila Prabhupada s directive is simple and straightforward, now coming up with an alternative is problematic. committed suicide. Vajrad api katora. Harder than the thunderbolt and softer than the rose. This is the position. Tamala Krsna: But, Prabhupada, if you were as strict as. If you were that strict Prabhupada: No, I am not Chaitanya Prabhu. I am not. Why you are comparing me? I am an ordinary man. Guru-krpa: So in ISKCON, if someone falls down, it means that he should commit suicide? Prabhupada: No. Gurudasa: We wouldn t have much of a movement, then. (Morning Walk - March 11, 1976, Mayapur, mw.may)

12 Whose Final Order 12 Never mind, you take the position that you know what is rittvik and how it is to be executed now that Prabhupada s plan cannot work. In this way, you have set yourself up as the authorized rittvik camp and have improvised a d-i-y initiation process. From what we ve heard, there are a few variations the so-called 50% initiation, in which the candidate writes his/her name on a piece of paper and puts it in front of Prabhupada, the 90% initiation by Madhu Pandit, self-appointed rittvik, who gives the name and chants on the candidate s beads, and the 100% initiation in which a GBC-appointed rittvik will give the name and chant on the beads (but this has not yet happened, because IRM has not been able to elect a GBC), and then there is your group, which asserts that initiation takes place simply by virtue of reading Prabhupada s books, and finally the China group headed by Jitarati, in which a three-man committee decides on the name of the candidate and who can initiate him. But where do you get off thinking that any of these initiation processes is a viable solution, when they are all a departure from the instructions spelled out in Prabhupada s letter dated July 9th, 1977? In fact, you are not initiated by anyone, so why should we take seriously anything you have to say on the subject? Of course, you claim to be initiated by Prabhupada s books. But you also do not accept any instruction from anyone. If, like you, the millions of people who have read Prabhupada s books are already initiated and likewise assume that they can fabricate whatever they like to do or think and call it Krishna consciousness, what will be the outcome? Service means you must take order from the master. That is service. Otherwise it is mental concoction. Actually, the servant requests, How can I serve you? So when the master orders, You serve me like this, then you do that, that is service. And if you manufacture your service, that is not service. That is your sense gratification. Yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasadah. You have to see how he is pleased. Now if he wants a glass of water and if you bring a nice glass of milk, you can say, Milk is better than water, you take it. That is not service. He wants water, you give him water. Don t manufacture better thing. Just like Krishna wanted Arjuna to fight, and he became a nonviolent saint, No, Krishna, I ll not fight. That is disobedience. Krishna says fight, you must fight. Don t bring philosophy of nonviolence. That is nonsense. What He says, do it. That is service. That he did later on. Sometimes they misunderstand Bhagavad-gita, that Arjuna is not willing to fight and Krishna is inducing him to fight. They misunderstand that Arjuna is better than Krishna. But that s not the fact. What Krishna says, we have to execute that. We should not manufacture our own ideas. That is not service. (Bhagavad-gita Lecture, BG 15.15, August 5, 1976, New Mayapur (French Farm), BG.NMR) Back to Prabhupada or back-biting? How can you claim to represent Prabhupada when you manufacture your own process? How are you any different from the ISKCON GBC and Gurus you criticize, when you also take it upon yourself to interpret and alter Prabhupada s order to suit your fancy? ISKCON outright defies the letter, but you sneak around behind it and try to use it as cover for your endless fault-finding and then impose your own ideas for its implementation to bypass the straightforward, obvious instructions as if Prabhupada s directive was deficient in any way. And how can you say that your objective is to reform ISKCON and bring it back to the final order of Srila Prabhupada, when you yourself have reservations about accepting that order as it is and are so unwilling to admit the possibility that there is such a thing as reform for a person like Hansadutta? ISKCON may be beyond reform. But Prabhupada s instructions do not beg to be reformed or revised or reshaped to fit our own models, and if the devotees who accept Srila Prabhupada as their spiritual master will unite behind those instructions and cooperate in a spirit of love and trust, putting aside personal differences and old habits of suspicion and back-biting, then

13 Whose Final Order 13 Prabhupada s ISKCON can live again. But as things are now, there is no unified preaching mission, and outside a hierarchy under Prabhupada and his representative, no one takes anyone seriously, everyone has his own opinion, and there is no parampara. The bottom line is we either trust Prabhupada or we don t. We ve seen the result of not trusting him. All is lost. So what is there to lose by finally adopting his instructions and cooperating with the authorized rittvik representative? Hope you are well. - Your servant in the service of Srila Prabhupada, Bhima das

14 Whose Final Order 14 Take it from Prabhupada Posted on December 28th, 2007 by Bhima das received from Krishna Kant Desai in reply to Dear IRM - Back to Prabhupada s Order Dear Bhima Prabhu, PAMHO AGTSP I had made a simple point which would be applicable to any position and any person on the whole planet, and thus was not specifically attacking Hamsaduta prabhu. Instead of directly dealing with the point, you have gone off on a rant attacking me, the IRM and glorifying Hamsaduta. Let me rephrase my point by breaking it down into a some very simple questions, for which all I want are simple yes or no answers. Nothing more. The first question is: Once a person is appointed as a sannyasi, does he remain a sannyasi for life even though he may fall-down? Please just answer yes or no. Thank you. Your servant, Krishnakant Reply Hare Krishna Dear Krishna Kant Prabhu, obeisances, all glories to Srila Prabhupada. In your previous to Mr. Gunalan: - I notice that you do not claim he [Hansadutta] is still a sannyasi, since he abandoned this position. Similarly he is no longer a ritvik, since he also abandoned this position as well. If it is possible for a person to retain any position regardless of gross misconduct, then we may as well accept him as a sannyasi, and also accept temple presidents who run off with the temple s money as still being temple presidents etc. What you are actually proposing is a brand new principle with wide ranging implications for the whole world, that: A person once appointed to a position, will always retain that position regardless of what he may do. Obviously we cannot only apply this new principle to the position of ritvik, and only for Hamsaduta, just because you say so; we must apply it across the board for all positions and all people. So you need to: first establish that this new principle of yours is indeed in true; and if so, (1) why we cannot apply it to all positions and all people. (2)

15 Whose Final Order 15 But Prabhu, what is the value of your postulation? What is the value of my yes or no? In our line, we go by guru, sadhu and shastra not fallacious logical propositions which cannot be universally applied and which are based on false premises. I believe Srila Prabhupada answers your question best: Prabhupada: No, no. Why not take this Suppose he [speaking of Madhudvisa Swami] is attracted by some woman. Let him dress like a gentleman and keep with the woman as husband and wife and preach. What is the wrong there? Whatever is done, you close up that chapter. Now you become a householder. There is no harm. And live as a gentleman householder and preach. But don t play duplicity in the dress of sannyasi to keep private relations. That is not good. That is duplicity. Better openly become a respectable householder and serve Krishna. Our service is main thing, either in this dress or that dress. So if you cannot keep yourself sincerely as a sannyasi, then get yourself married. But you cannot keep the girl as friend. That is also not good. Jagadisa: But for Brahmananda, he may remain sannyasi? Brahmananda? Prabhupada: That is his choice. But we say that Don t be hypocrite. That s all. If he thinks now he ll be able to continue as a sannyasi, he ll not fall down, he ll be careful, let him continue. That will depend on his sincerity. But I say that if you cannot remain as a sannyasi, get yourself married, live like a gentleman and serve Krishna. Why should you give up Krishna s service? That is my point. As you want to live, any way, comfortably, do it. We never condemned grihasthas. If sannyasa is not suitable for you, you remain as a grihastha. What is the wrong there? (Discussion on Deprogrammers - January 9, 1977, dc.bom) Let us discuss with reference to Srila Prabhupada s teachings, his letters and conversations and personal examples - accepting Srila Prabhupada as our authority. By your arguments you wish to imply that once a position is given up, it is gone, but there is such a thing as resuming it. We see practical examples of this everywhere around us in the mundane world, and we can see examples of it in Krishna consciousness also just read Srimad-Bhagavatam. I cited the example of Rupanuga because although he gave up sannyasa, Prabhupada encouraged him to situate himself peacefully in householder ashram and continue his service in preaching and as GBC. Rupanuga was certainly not the only such case, but from this exception alone you have the answer to your questions. Of course falldown is falldown - how can a person be considered a sannyasi when he has fallen down from it? But falldown from sannyasa does not preclude taking it up again in the future. Nor, from the conversation cited above, does it appear that Prabhupada necessarily considers falldown a disqualification from continuing in one s service. Hope to hear back from you. I am interested to hear your reply to my admittedly lengthy , though not nearly so long-winded as some of your attacks on others. I hope I have made my points clear, if not we can further discuss. - Your servant, Bhima das

16 Whose Final Order 16 Three questions for IRM Posted on December 28th, 2007 by Bhima das Received from Krishna Kant Desai of IRM, in reply to Take it from Prabhupada: Dear Bhima Prabhu, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. To justify your again not directly answering my mail, which simply called for you to state only one word yes or no, you write: What is the value of my yes or no? In our line, we go by guru, sadhu and shastra Well your previous mail to me was over 3000 words. If for you to simply state just ONE word has no value, then why did you happily state 3000 words in your last mail? Clearly you consider your words to always be in line with guru, sadhu and sastra, otherwise you would not have already sent me 3000 of them? Therefore you can not object to sending me one more word. Indeed you were happy to send me hundreds more words in the same mail where you claim that simply stating one word from you will have no value! You are clearly very fearful at answering my questions directly that to avoid doing so you have to contradict yourself. So try again, and ONLY send me back one word yes or no (nothing else required at this stage), so that your point will be clear for me, as you desire. Here is the simple question again (I believe your answer is no, but I just want to be clear, and plus you must learn the discipline of learning to answer the question asked directly, rather than answering something which has not been asked): Once a person is appointed as a sannyasi, does he remain a sannyasi for life even though he may fall-down? Remember, just yes or no, nothing more. Thank you. Your servant, Krishnakant You like questions I like answers Hare Krishna Dear Krishna Kant, obeisances, all glories to Srila Prabhupada. Why shall I be beholden to you to answer no more than yes or no? I have answered you already why do you need now again another one word? Prabhupada s words are too many or not enough for you? Why this childish impudence? You are either an upstart or a simpleton. But I can also play the yes or no game, if you like. Here are three questions for you:

17 Whose Final Order Do you accept Srila Prabhupada s directive dated July 9th, 1977 in toto? Yes or No 2. Are you in compliance with that letter? Yes or No 3. Do you accept Hansadutta as rittvik representative of the Acharya? Yes or No From your exchange with Mr. Gunalan the answer to all three questions is apparently No; and when Mr. Gunalan forwarded it to me, I sought to clarify your position, illuminate the contradictions in it, and call your attention to evidence from Srila Prabhupada to answer your concerns over Hansadutta having left off his duties and sannyasa and whether this was not a disqualification. Get it straight Mr. Gunalan had written to you an If ISKCON is represented by unbonafide gurus, the IRM is represented by unbonafide rittviks. Hansadutta Dasa is the only bonafide Rittvik and BBT Trustee currently. Please visit Bhaktivedantas web site and read Srila Prabhupada, His Movement and You. To which you replied: Since you claim that Hamsaduta is the ONLY bonafide disciple of Srila Prabhupada, you will obviously know WHEN he became this ONLY bona-fide disciple otherwise you could not make this claim. So pray tell us, on what DATE, did Hamsaduta suddenly become the ONLY bona fide disciple of Srila Prabhupada? Huh? Where did you get this idea? Mr. Gunalan had not said anything of the kind. Nonetheless, he tried again, and sent to you another , urging IRM to accept Hansadutta and cooperate, that in due time ISKCON will be automatically reformed, because Srila Prabhupada s bonafide instruction is followed and further remarking Currently IRM not bonafide, the Rittviks they self-elected. A fallacy You answered that Hansadutta had renounced his position, and posited that if he can take back his duty to act as rittvik representative then he might as well be accepted as sannyasi again and temple presidents who run off with money might as well be reinstated and that this principle has to be applied across the board, implying that the only logical conclusion we can arrive at is that once given up, a position cannot be claimed back. Your premise fails, a dictum simpliciter. You have not established why this must be applied universally in every situation without exception. It does not follow that a disciple cannot be reinstated in good standing or that he cannot resume his responsibilities. You insist on asking this question: Once a person is appointed as a sannyasi, does he remain a sannyasi for life even though he may fall down?, and I have answered it already twice by citing conversations with Srila Prabhupada. Since you protest that they are too lengthy and indirect, here s your monosyllabic answer: No. BUT neither he necessarily remains fallen for life. You did not dare to ask the question: Is it possible that a fallen sannyasi might again take to sannyasa in his lifetime? or the question: Can a disciple who left off his duties ever take them up again? Because the answer would have to be yes. There is ample evidence where Srila Prabhupada has urged disciples who fell away to come back to accept their assigned responsibility and resume their service.

18 Whose Final Order 18 Keep to the letter Who are you and I to dictate terms that might be more palatable to our intellect and senses? Srila Prabhupada gave the order. Your fear that the order will be miscarried again is understandable, but if the person demonstrates willingness to carry it out in all sincerity, what can be the objection? Sincerity is required from all the rittvik representative and us as well, to surrender to Srila Prabhupada s instruction and carry it out in good faith. We are all responsible to cooperate and put Srila Prabhupada s plan into action as dictated by him, with the faith that Srila Prabhupada knew what he was doing and that his order will be successful. [see footnotes 5 and 6 ] If you are Prabhupada s Desai-ple, then give your support and cooperation to see that Prabhupada s order can work, and give up this idea Kant it Can and Must. If there is a discipline that you and I need to learn it is this. What is the use of continually heaping blame and shame on ISKCON for having neglected the order when you are not prepared to abide by it either? Awaiting your reply. your servant, Bhima das 5 Spiritual master s order, you have to accept. There is no argument. In this way you can make progress. Sadhu shastra guru vakya tinete kariya aikya. If we argue Na tams tarkena yojayet. Achintyah khalu ye bhava na tams tarkena yojayet. Things which are inconceivable by you, you cannot argue. Then it will be a failure. You have to accept that axiomatic truth. It is not dogmatic. It is not dogmatic in this sense, because our predecessor acharyas, they accepted. What you are that you are arguing? So that is the proof. Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya ]. Tarko pratishthah shrutayo vibhinna. If you argue, there is no conclusion. The argument will go on. You put some argument; I put some argument. That is not the process. Shrutayo vibhinna. Scriptures, in different countries, different circumstances, different scriptures, they re also different. Then tarko pratishthah shrutayo vibhinna nasau munir yasya matam na bhinnam. And so far philosophical speculation is concerned, one philosopher is putting some theory, another philosopher putting some theory there is contradiction. And unless you defy another philosopher, you cannot be a famous philosopher. That is the way of philosophical Then where, how to get real information? That is stated, that dharmasya tattvam nihitam guhayam. The secret of religious process is lying in the cave or within the heart. So how to realize it? Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya ]. You have to follow great personalities. Therefore we are trying to follow Lord Krishna or Lord Chaitanya. That is perfection. You have to take evidences from the Vedas. You have to follow the instruction. The success is sure. That s all. (Lecture on Sri Ishopanishad Mantra 5, Los Angeles, May 7, IP.LA) 6 If we become fixed up in this resolution, that Whatever we have heard from my guru, the representative of Krishna, I must execute. I do not care for my personal convenience or inconvenience. This is my life and soul, then your life is perfect. Then your life is If I make some amendment, addition, alteration, in the name of Krishna, guru, then it is spoiled. No. We should receive the instruction as it is, especially (SB Lecture , Mayapur, Oct 28, SB.MAY)