Disclaimer: Please note this is only a raw translation for the purpose of Dec 2014 parayan, please do not circulate or share. Aptavani 3 [CH 7 ]

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1 Disclaimer: Please note this is only a raw translation for the purpose of Dec 2014 parayan, please do not circulate or share. Aptavani 3 [CH 7 ] A Series of Questions About the Self! Difference, Based on Veils of Ignorance! Questioner: Does the body exist on the basis of the Self (Atma) or does the Self (Atma) exist on the basis of the body? Dadashri: If the Self (Atma) is there, then the body stands (lives). Questioner: The Atma of an agnani (one without Self-realization), the Atma of a Gnani (One with Self-realization) and the Atma of One who has attained moksha (final liberation); what is the difference in the energies of these three? What can the Siddhas (absolutely liberated Ones) do? The omniscient One (Sarvagnya) can do whatever He wishes. Dadashri: The Atma of the agnani appears to be in bondage (bandhan), whereas the Atma of the Gnani is in freedom-bondage (abandha-bandha). From certain perspectives, it appears to be bound, and from other perspectives, it appears to be unbound. Whereas the absolutely liberated Ones (Siddha Bhagwanto) always remain free (abandha), they remain in moksha only. The absolutely liberated Ones are no longer in a position to do anything. Only One (Gnani Purush) with a body (dehadhari) can do whatever He wishes. The energy of the absolutely liberated Ones is completely developed, but it is of no use to anyone. Questioner: By its swabhaav (inherent nature), by its gunadharma (intrinsic properties that have a specific function), (the Self) is indeed the same; then on what basis is there a difference in the energies? Dadashri: That difference is on the basis of avaran (veil of ignorance). Questioner: Through which energy do the phases (avastha) of an element (vastu) change? Dadashri: Through the element of time (kaad tattva). As time changes, the phases keep changing. Questioner: Is there any relation between Gnan (Knowledge) and hridaya (the heart)? Dadashri: Both have nothing to do with each other. The heart is relative, and Knowledge is real. But only when the heart is pure, can one begin to quickly progress in Gnan. Questioner: Can the Kevali (One who has absolute Knowledge and is in the final body before ultimate liberation) see the Atma?

2 Dadashri: A Kevali can see the Atma through Gnan. To See means to become aware (bhaan) and to Know means to have the experience (anubhav). It is a formless (aroopi) state; it can be experienced. Questioner: Besides the Kevali, can others behold the Self? Dadashri: No. Freedom from Ignorance is Indeed Moksha! Questioner: What does the Self (Atma) have to become free from? Dadashri: First, it has to become free from ignorance (agnan), then it has to become free from the effects that have arisen out of ignorance. Questioner: It is said that there is moksha of the Soul, is this moksha some kind of a geographic location? Dadashri: It is true that it is a geographic location, but in reality, You are indeed moksha swaroop (inherently in the form of liberation)! Questioner: The Self (Atma) and the absolute Self (Parmatma) are indeed different. They both have some relationship, do they not? Dadashri: They are not different. The Self is indeed the absolute Self. The difference lies only in the state (dasha). When you come home, you are Chandubhai, and when you sit in the office, they you are considered a collector. It is like Hu, bavo ne Mangaldas (Hu: I, the awakened Self; bavo: the one with the beliefs and anger-pride-deceit-greed; Mangaldas: the physical body)! Questioner: When the Atma and Parmatma become one, that is considered the final stage, right? Dadashri: Yes, that is called the final stage. There is nothing left to do beyond that. The Matter and Place of the Soul! Questioner: In what way does the Self (Atma) reside with respect to place (kshetra)? Dadashri: The place of the Self (swakshetra) is that of its infinite pradesh (the smallest amount of space that a single parmanu occupies on the Soul). I do not actually mean to say its location. Swakshetra has been described to remove one from parkshetra (the location of the non-self). Questioner: Does the dravya (matter) of the Self (Atma) change? Dadashri: The swadravya (inherent matter) of the Self (Atma) does not change. However, all the dravya (karmic effect experienced through the mind, speech, or body) that apply to the Self due to worldly intents (sansarbhaav) keep changing. The location (kshetra) keeps changing, the time (kaad) keeps changing, and based on this, the intent (bhaav) keeps changing. Fear arises when

3 one goes to a place that is scary. The intent of every living being keeps changing from one samaya (the smallest, most indivisible unit of time) to the next. Questioner: Are there different types of Souls (Atma)? Dadashri: No, Souls are of one type only. Questioner: Does the Self (Atma) have attachment-abhorrence (raag-dwesh)? Dadashri: No, attachment-abhorrence is not a property (guna) of the Self. Attachmentabhorrence happens due to wrong belief. The Self is Indeed the Absolute Self! Questioner: Please explain, The Self (Atma) is indeed the absolute Self (Parmatma). Dadashri: In the relative, it is the Self, and in the real, it is the absolute Self. As long as there is trading of temporary things, it is the worldly self (sansari atma), and when One is not in worldly life, then One is the absolute Self (Parmatma). If one who worships the relative, then one is temporary (vinashi), and the One who worships the real, is the absolute Self. If you have awareness (bhaan), then reside in the absolute Self, and if you do not have awareness, then you are Chandubhai (the relative self). Questioner: By realizing the Self (Atma), what should I understand that I have attained? Dadashri: Eternal bliss. Questioner: The Self (Atma) is chetan (life energy). Is it eternal or does it dissolve? Does its state change? Dadashri: The Self (Atma) is eternal; it remains just as it is. Just as the state of gold does not change when gold and copper are mixed together in a ring, its gunadharma (intrinsic properties that have a specific function) do not change. In the same way, the gunadharma of the Self (Atma) do not change even though the Self resides with the non-self (anatma). Moreover, gold can be separated by a (chemical) process. Questioner: The chetana (energy of the Self) in a grain of wheat is different from that in a bird, isn t it? Dadashri: No, the chetana is the same; in me, in you, and in a grain of wheat, the chetana is the same, but there is a difference in the veils of ignorance (avaran) of each one. Questioner: Can chetan (life energy) govern others? Dadashri: No, everything functions only through its contact. Due to the pressure of circumstances, a belief arises that, I am doing this. Despite being in this vibhavik bhaav (delusionary intent that I am Chandubhai ), the Self always remains in swabhaavik bhaav (original state as the Self).

4 Questioner: All the elements remain in a corpse, do they not? Dadashri: No. Matter (pudgal) and space (akash), only these two elements remain. The rest dissipate. Then all the elements separate and each goes back into its original elemental state. Questioner: But even there (in the corpse) space is taken up, isn t it? Dadashri: The original element of matter (pudgal) has its own natural space indeed. But the body (deh) that is formed through the agglomeration of these other parmanus (the smallest, indivisible and indestructible, particle of matter), also takes up space. After the Atma (Self) departs, they all come into their original elemental state. Questioner: If a person has made the firm resolve to remain in the state as the Self (swaroop), is that through the intellect (buddhigamya)? Does this happen through the mind? Or is it beyond that? Dadashri: To remain in the state as the Self is totally beyond the mind, intellect and everything else. However, one has to have Self realization. The mind is completely physical. The State of the Self During Sleep! Questioner: I went to sleep at night and woke up in the morning. Who is the one who knows that there was uninterrupted sleep until morning? Dadashri: All these; the mind, intellect (buddhi), chit (inner component of knowledge and vision), and ego are the function (dharma) of the antahkaran (inner instrument of the human body consisting of the four faculties listed above). Atma chaitanya (the Self) is the part without action (akriya); it is the Knower-Seer (Gnata-Drashta) and akriya. In all of this, if the antahkaran becomes akriya (without activity) then the effect of being filled with pleasure prevails. When one sleeps at night, then one has become akriya; and the pleasure of this prevails. As long as there is activity (kriya), the pleasure decreases. One sleeps with egoism, and one wakes with egoism. And the one who says, There was uninterrupted sleep until morning, is also the ego. Questioner: Is there any inkling of the Self (Atma) in it? Dadashri: No, no. Questioner: What is the state of the Self (Atma) after we fall asleep at night? Dadashri: The One who continuously remains in the awareness of pure Soul (Shuddhatma) remains in that very state even in sleep. And the one who has the awareness of, I am Chandubhai ; the awareness that, I am Chandubhai does not leave him even in sleep. That is why he says, I slept wonderfully. Hey, you were asleep, so who is the one that knows this? It is the ego that knows this. Questioner: What is the difference between munyogi (one who practices union with the mind) and Atmayogi (one who is in union with the Self)?

5 Dadashri: There is a big difference; it is like the distance between the earth and the sky. But a munyogi is much higher than a dehyogi (one who practices union with the body). It is not possible to attain union with the Self (Atmayog) through munyog (union with the mind). Questioner: Please explain about inward facing vision (antarmukhi) and outward facing vision (bahirmurkhi). Dadashri: When thoughts about the eternal (avinashi) arise, one becomes antarmukhi. As long as there is propensity (ruchi) or desire for destructible (vinashi) things, as long as the inner tendencies (vrutti) wander externally, until then one remains bahirmukhi. The Distinction Between the Self and the Non-Self! Questioner: What should be done if one wants to separate the Self and the non-self? Dadashri: In a ring, if gold and copper are mixed, and if you want to separate the gold from it, then what should be done? If you were to ask a goldsmith, what would he say? Give the ring to me, the work will be done. In the same way, all you have to tell me is, Please bring about a solution for us. Then the work will get done. Atma (Self) has not become anatma (non-self) for even a second. This is something to ask the Gnani about, there is nothing for you to do at all. To do is an illusion (bhranti). For the one who finds a Gnani his solution has come. Questioner: In recognizing Parmatma (the absolute God within; the absolute Self), why does the experience of pain and restlessness arise? Dadashri: Parmatma is indeed there, but you maintain separation with Parmatma. If devotion (bhakti) arises for the Parmatma sitting within, then pain will not arise. But, how can devotion arise without recognition (of Parmatma)? With direct worship (pratyaksh bhakti), there is happiness, and with indirect worship (paroksh bhakti), there is peace in a moment and restlessness in the next. Questioner: God is the remover of pain (dukh) and the doer (giver) of pleasure (sukh), so then why is there restlessness? Dadashri: God is neither the remover of pain, nor the giver of pleasure. When divisive intellect (bhed buddhi) towards God goes away, and intellect without division (abhed buddhi) arises, that is when pain goes away. God does not take away anyone s pain and He does not give pleasure. He says that, Become engrossed (tanmayakar) in me, become one (abhed) with me, then there is no pain. To not know any true fact is called illusion (bhranti). The Experienced One Destroys the Wandering of Lifetimes Questioner: What is the straightforward path to liberation (moksha)? Dadashri: It is where you meet an experienced one. Once you meet an experienced one, your solution has come. What other path could be more simple and straightforward than this?

6 What has the Lord said about what one should do to go to moksha? One can go if the right Vision (samkit) is attained, otherwise one can go if one attains the grace of a Gnani Purush. There are two types of Gnani. One is the shastra gnani (knowledgeable of the scriptures), and the other is anubhaav Gnani (with experience of the Self), the exact Gnani. The exact Gnani, having ripped through all the veils within, speaks after experiencing the Self and that is exact Knowledge (yatharth Gnan). Knowledge of the Self (Atmagnan) is attained through exact Knowledge. Otherwise, as long as there is my-ness (mamtabhaav) of I am Chandubhai, from where will the state of equipoise (samatabhaav) emerge? It is only after right Vision (samkit) is attained once, that the exact state of equipoise emerges. What these people refer to, is actually worldly equipoise (laukik samatabhaav). After reading so many scriptures and books, the books have attained moksha but they have not! The Experience of the Bliss of the Self Questioner: What kind of happiness (sukh) arises when the mind becomes calm, when the mind does not trouble us? What kind of happiness arises when the chit (inner faculty of knowledge and vision) does not wander? Dadashri: It is indeed the mind that is doing all this. It is indeed the mind that instigates the chit, the ego, and all. Once the mind has become calm, then everything becomes calm. Questioner: In the state as the Self (Atmadasha), how can we recognize the bliss of the Self that, This is indeed of the Self? Dadashri: There is no happiness derived from anything external, the happiness has not arisen from seeing anything, by listening to anything, by eating, by touching, from coolness or there is no sensory pleasure of any kind. The happiness is not due to money, there is no one to say welcome (give respect), there is no sexual pleasure (vishaya sukh). At that point, the bliss that prevails within is the bliss of the Self. But you will not noticeably recognize this happiness. As long as there is sensual pleasure (vishay), the distinct (spashta) bliss of the Self will not arise. When Dehadhyas Leaves Then Questioner: When can it be considered that dehadhyas (false attribution that I am this body ) has left? Dadashri: It can be considered that dehadhyas has left when attachment-abhorrence (raagdwesh) do not arise even when someone picks your pocket, curses at you or assaults you. As long as the Knowledge of the Self (Atmagnan) is not attained, the entire world is engulfed with dehadhyas. However many wrong beliefs (vikalp) there are, there is that much dehadhyas. The body is not meant for binding offenses, it is meant for liberation (mukti). Will you not have to settle the offenses that you have brought with you from countless past lives? When dehadhyas leaves, one is considered to have come into Conduct (as the Self; Charitra). Questioner: Where is the Self (Atma) located in the body? Dadashri: It is not in the hair and nails; the Self (Atma) is located everywhere else. Wherever one knows that a flame has touched, that is where the Self (Atma) is located.

7 Questioner: Can life energy (chetan) be put into inanimate matter (jada)? Dadashri: When you say, This is my pen, then you put the life energy of my-ness (marapanu) in it. That is why you would feel hurt if I were to lose the pen. The Distinction Between the Self and the Body Questioner: What is the relation between the Self (Atma) and the body? Dadashri: There is no relation between the Self (Atma) and the body. However much connection the shadow has with the person, that is how much the Self and the body are related. Just as the shadow appears through the presence of the sun, similarly all this has arisen through the presence of the Self (Atma). People have inappropriately taken that which is not their own. That is how separate the relation between the Self (Atma) and the body is. Just as a person standing inside a lift (elevator) and the lift are both separate; the lift does all the work, all you have to do is press the button. That is the only work that you have to do. By not understanding this, people suffer tremendous discomfort and pain. This tumult is synonymous to trying to raise the elevator up. This mind, speech, and body; all three are lifts. The button of the lift is all that needs to be pressed. There is the Self (Atma) and the other is the ego. The person who wants worldly, paudgalik (relative) things has to press the button with egoism. And the person who does not want worldly things has to press the button with the intent as the Self (Atma bhaav). Why with the intent as the Self (Atma)? It is because, I want to become free; I want to go to moksha (liberation). Now he no longer wants to move forward by doing egoism. If there is an injury here, then the ego will say, I am hurt pretty badly, so it feels pain. And if the ego says, I am not hurt at all, then there will be no pain. One is simply doing egoism. If you understand this profound science of the enlightened Lords (Vitaraags), then how can there be any kind of pain in this world? The Self (Atma) is indeed the absolute Self (Parmatma)! The Self (Atma) is the eternal life sustaining element (chaitanya) and it is related to inanimate matter (jada). The relative self has come into relation and it is only an inanimate relation. We (the Self) have come into relation (sambandh) with circumstances, not into bondage (bandh). Moreover, circumstances are dissociative (viyogi) by nature. Just once, attain the Self (Atma) from a Gnani Purush, thereafter the relationship with circumstances is entirely dissociative by nature. There Lies the Real Knowledge What is the mark of real Knowledge (Gnan)? Right from a small child to the elderly, small child meaning right from a year-and-half-old child to an eighty-year-old person, from those who are in the state of worldly life (sansari) to those in the state of renunciation (sanyasi), it will attract all these humans. It is because this is a factual thing. Even for a child the Vision (Darshan) will arise within. In the places of religion where a child gets a headache, there real religion does not exist; it is all relative. The discussion that does not lead to controversy is referred to as real Knowledge. And if the discussion leads to controversy, there is argument for, there is argument against, there is exchange of hot words, there real Knowledge does not exist.

8 There are two kinds of knowledge; one is that which shows what is right and what is wrong in worldly life, what is beneficial and what is harmful, and the other is the Knowledge of the path to liberation. If Knowledge of the path to liberation is attained, then that knowledge for worldly life arises naturally. This is because one has received the Vision (Drashti)! The divine Vision (divya Drashti) has been received! If the Knowledge of the path to liberation cannot be found, then saints who give the knowledge of what is beneficial and what is harmful in worldly life must be found. Such saints are difficult to find in the current era of the time cycle. Impenetrable Coating Into the Future Questioner: People swindle God and do corruption in religion. Dadashri: That is very wrong. That is why from the very beginning the Gnanis of the past have said in a verse: Anya khsetre krutam papam, dharma kshetre vinashyati, Dharma kshetre krutam papam, vrajlepam bhavishyati. Misdeeds done at any other place, can be destroyed at the place of religion, Misdeeds done at the place of religion, bind an impenetrable coating into the future. Vajralep means a person will be done for, for hundreds of thousands of years! A life form in hell results! Those who are harming their own selves, we (the Gnani Purush) refer to them as being asleep while awake. Through this, the human life form will be lost, they are creating mountains of miseries. Only Knowledge (Gnan) can stop this from happening. True Knowledge (satya Gnan) must be found. Nothing can be attained through repentance alone. Repentance is a starting step towards religion. Questioner: A person will repent after doing wrong deeds, and then continue on his old ways, right? Dadashri: The repentance has to be heartily. Gaining the wrong knowledge gives rise to desires, and as a result of the worship of this wrong knowledge, pain is received. Otherwise, nature has not been formed to give pain to anyone. No creatures except for human beings have worries or pain. Humans become egotistical (ahamkari) after they become vikalpi (interfere excessively with intellect). Until then, the ego is considered normal. It is referred to as natural (sahajik), acceptable (vastavik) ego. Once a person becomes vikalpi, then he becomes liable. And after becoming liable, pain arises. As long as a person does not become vikalpi, as long as he does not become liable, nature never gives pain to anyone at all. Questioner: Do humans themselves give rise to pain?

9 Dadashri: We have given rise to it ourselves, nature has not. Nature is actually helpful. When there is misuse of knowledge, the reign of evil takes over you; then God will not remain there. When Does One Become God? Questioner: What is the difference between a living being (jiva), the Self (Atma), and God (Bhagwan)? Dadashri: After one comes into the domain of the Self (swa-satta), then one is referred to as God. After becoming the Self (Purush), when progress as the Self (purusharth) begins, then one is referred to as (beginning state of) God. And as long as one is under the domain of the relative self (prakruti), one is a living being (jiva). The one who has the awareness of, I will die is a living being (jiva). And if the awareness of, I will not die arises, that is the Self (Atma), and one that reaches the full stage is God (Bhagwan). Questioner: When can the Self (Atma) be considered to have become God? Dadashri: When Self-realization occurs, then one begins to become God. Thereafter, when the load of karmas has decreased, when finally the full form is attained, then the awakened Self (potey) becomes the absolute Self (Parmatma) indeed. Questioner: When the Soul (Atma) takes on the form of a body, is that when it is called an embodied soul (jiva)? Dadashri: The Self (Atma) does not take on the form of a body. Only the belief changes. I am Chandubhai is the wrong belief that has been established. In reality, You are indeed in the form of the Self (Atmaswaroop), and in the form of the Self (Atma) You never die, only the belief dies. Questioner: Everyone s Soul (Atma) is in the same form (swaroop), so then why does everyone have different experiences? Dadashri: Each Soul (Atma) is on the path of spiritual evolution (samsaran marg). Since the course of each (Soul) is different, each has different experiences. Questioner: Are both the pure Soul (Shuddhatma) and the impure soul (ashuddhatma) the same? Dadashri: It is considered impure on the basis of a relative perspective. When I am Chandubhai, then it is referred to as impure, it is referred to as the embodied self (jivatma). And when that wrong belief gets fractured and the right belief is established, then it is referred to as the pure Soul. Questioner: When I say, I am pure Soul, then in that some huge ego does not sneak in, does it?

10 Dadashri: No, after attaining this Knowledge (Gnan), You (the awakened Self) speak having become that very form (swaroop). You indeed spoke from that form, therefore it is not referred to as ego. Ego is to believe I am where I is actually not. Questioner: Who is considered to be a truly embodied soul? Dadashri: The one who Knows the Self (Atma) to be the pure Soul (shuddhatma) is indeed considered to be a truly embodied soul. Truly embodied souls are those who have realized the self (one s own self) to be the pure Self. Otherwise, if you believe this temple (body) to be God, then where will God go? If you latch on to this temple considering it to be God, then God will keep laughing that, Hey, are you blind or what? You do not recognize Me, and have latched on to this temple instead! They indeed believe the temple to be the Self (chetan). If the Self is the Form of Moksha, Then Who Attains Moksha? Questioner: If the Self is ageless, immortal, separate from the body, then who attains liberation (moksha)? Dadashri: The ego. The ego attains liberation, meaning it gets dissolved (it no longer exists). That which has arisen is what dissolves. It is indeed the ego that is bound, the Self (Atma) is not bound. When the Gnani Purush explains, the ego becomes liberated. The Self (Atma) is indeed pure (shuddha), it is indeed the form of liberation (mokshswaroop)! It has never become impure (ashuddha) or been bound! This world is the vision of egoism. That which shows fictitious possibilities is referred to as egoism. If you have ever applied pressure on your eye with your fingers, then you will see two moons. What is the truth in this? What is the mystery? Hey brother, there is just one moon. It is due to your misunderstanding that there appears to be two. When a sparrow sits in front of a mirror, are there two sparrows? Yet, the sparrow has the wrong belief (bhranti) that there is another sparrow, and she keeps pecking at it. She must even be getting hurt. Even if you shoo her away, she will come back. We ask her, What are you looking for, sister? You have no husband, no brother-in-law, no mother-in-law, then what are you looking for? Similarly, these people have gotten entangled. The mirror is actually a big science. If you want to physically describe the Self (Atma), then the only means is the mirror! If you keep doing (the egoism), I am, I am, then the Self (Atma) says, Go, you and I are separate! Once that egoism dissolves, then You are indeed that (the Self). The ego will not dissolve in that way on its own, it is not the kind that can be crushed like chutney (chilly relish paste). It is when one sees one s own mistakes that the ego dissolves. The ego is the form of mistakes. Identifying Brahma and Parbrahma! Questioner: What does Brahma and Parbrahma mean?

11 Dadashri: Brahma is the Self (Atma), and Parbrahma is the absolute Self (Parmatma). As long as the Self possesses a body, it is considered to be the Self (Atma), and not the absolute Self. The Tirthankars (fully enlightened Lords) and Gnani Purusho are considered the embodied absolute Self (dehadhari Parmatma). Questioner: This Brahma, what is it? Dadashri: What is your name? Questioner: Chandubhai. Dadashri: That you are Chandubhai is not completely wrong. By relative viewpoint you are Chandubhai, and by the real viewpoint you are Brahma! Brahma means Atma (Self). But the realization of Brahma has to happen, does it not? Questioner: Please explain mayik Brahma and amayik Brahma. Dadashri: It is like this; it is an offense to refer to mayik Brahma (the Self with illusion) as Brahma. How can the one who has fallen into delusion (bhramna) be called Brahma (the Self)? Mayik means one who has fallen into delusion. Real Brahma can be referred to as Brahma. Questioner: Is it possible for a human being who has become the complete form of the Self (sampurna Brahmaswaroop), who has become the form of the absolute Self (Parmatmaswaroop) to speak? Dadashri: Those who do not speak (remain silent) have not become Brahmaswaroop at all. It is referred to as complete Brahmaswaroop when there is complete awareness of the external, there is more awareness than even the worldly people. To lose awareness of the body is ekagrata (concentration on a target). That cannot be considered as having attained the Self (Atma). After becoming complete Brahmaswaroop, speech exists, everything exists. This is because both the body and the Self prevail separately, just as this coat and this body remain separate. Each remains within its own dharma (inherent function), the Self (Brahma) remains in the dharma of the Self, and the non-self (anatma) remains in the realm of the non-self. To not have awareness of the body is not a sign of the completeness of Knowledge, it is not a sign of the egoless (nirvikalp) state. To do ekagrata (concentrated attention), to awaken the kundilini (corporeal energy), is a temporary phase (avastha). Then one becomes just as he was before. It is a helpful thing, but it is not the complete state. *****