COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

Transcription

1 0 COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES HOUSE VETERANS AFFAIRS & EMERGENCY PREPAREDNESS AND HOUSE TRANSPORTATION SUBCOMMITTEE ON HIGHWAYS CAPITOL POST OFFICE LOBBY TUESDAY, AUGUST, 0:0 A.M. PUBLIC HEARING - EMERGENCY TOWING LIGHTS AND SAFETY REQUIREMENTS FOR HEAVY DUTY TOW TRUCK PURSUANT TO HB AND HB VETERANS AFFAIRS & EMERGENCY PREPAREDNESS COMMITTEE BEFORE: HONORABLE STEPHEN BARRAR, MAJORITY CHAIRMAN HONORABLE KAREN BOBACK HONORABLE ROSEMARY M. BROWN HONORABLE LYNDA SCHLEGEL CULVER HONORABLE GARY W. DAY HONORABLE FRANK FARRY HONORABLE MARK M. GILLEN HONORABLE KEITH J. GREINER HONORABLE LEE R. JAMES HONORABLE BARRY J. JOZWIAK HONORABLE ZACHARY A. MAKO HONORABLE JIM MARSHALL HONORABLE KATHY L. RAPP HONORABLE FRANCIS XAVIER RYAN HONORABLE WILL TALLMAN HONORABLE CHRIS SAINATO, MINORITY CHAIRMAN HONORABLE RYAN A. BIZZARRO HONORABLE FRANK BURNS HONORABLE DOM COSTA HONORABLE MARIA P. DONATUCCI HONORABLE KEVIN HAGGERTY HONORABLE CAROL HILL-EVANS HONORABLE BILL KORTZ HONORABLE ANITA ASTORINO KULIK HONORABLE ADAM J. RAVENSTAHL HONORABLE PETER SCHWEYER

2 0 TRANSPORTATION COMMITTEE HONORABLE LYNDA SCHLEGEL CULVER, MAJORITY CHAIRMAN HONORABLE KATE HARPER HONORABLE DOYLE HEFFLEY HONORABLE JOHN LAWRENCE HONORABLE WILLIAM KELLER, MINORITY CHAIRMAN HONORABLE WILLIAM KORTZ HONORABLE ED NEILSON HONORABLE MICHAEL SCHLOSSBERG COMMITTEE STAFF PRESENT: ERIC BUGAILE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MAJORITY HOUSE TRANSPORTATION COMMITTEE BETH SICKLER RESEARCH ANALYST, MAJORITY HOUSE TRANSPORTATION COMMITTEE NANCY COLE ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT, MAJORITY HOUSE TRANSPORTATION COMMITTEE GREGORY MORELAND RESEARCH ANALYST MEREDITH BIGGICA EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MINORITY HOUSE TRANSPORTATION COMMITTEE KYLE WAGONSELLER RESEARCH ANALYST, HOUSE

3 0 I N D E X OPENING REMARKS By Chairman Barrar - By Chairman Sainato By Chairman Keller - By Chairman Culver - PRESENTATION By Ms. Debbie Abel Mr. John Abel Mr. Ronald Bressler 0 - QUESTIONS - PRESENTATION By Mr. Bob Pento Mr. Matt Hedge - QUESTIONS - PRESENTATION By Amanda Henry Ken Lenhart Mike Hippensteel Jeff Walter - QUESTIONS - 0 PRESENTATION By Lieutenant Brian Ianuzzi 0-0 QUESTIONS 0 - CONCLUDING REMARKS By Chairman Barrar -

4 0 P R O C E E D I N G S CHAIRMAN BARRAR: First I'd like to ask everyone if had put out some extra packets of testimony. Sean, where are those extra packets at? Okay. We have extras right here. Can we put these out so people can access them? Everyone get their packet. Okay. Good morning, everyone. I would like to ask Subcommittee Chair Lynda Culver if she would lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE RECITED CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Okay. Good morning. I want to thank you all for participating today and, you know, getting up here today. It's an important meeting. And a big thank you to the Fire Commissioner Solobay and his staff for hosting us today. My name is Steve Barrar. I am the Majority Chairman of the Veterans Affairs & Emergency Preparedness Committee. And I would like at this time to ask the Chairmen here to introduce themselves. CHAIRMAN SAINATO: Good morning. I'm Representative Chris Sainato. I'm the Democratic Chair of the House Budget Affairs & Emergency Preparedness Committee. CHAIRMAN KELLER: Good morning. My name is Bill

5 0 Keller. I represent the th District in South Philadelphia. I'm the Democratic Chair of the Transportation Committee. CHAIRMAN CULVER: Good morning. Lynda Schlegel Culver, Subcommittee Chair on Highways for the Transportation Committee. CHAIRMAN BARRAR: And I would ask the members and the staff also then to introduce themselves, starting with Sean. MR. HARRIS: Sean Harris, Research Analyst with the Committee. REPRESENTATIVE FARRY: Frank Farry, Representative, Bucks County. REPRESENTATIVE MAKO: Zack Mako, Lehigh and Northampton County. REPRESENTATIVE COSTA: Dom Costa, Allegheny County. REPRESENTATIVE DAY: Gary Day, Lehigh and Berks County. REPRESENTATIVE LAWRENCE: John Lawrence, Chester and Lancaster County. REPRESENTATIVE RYAN: Frank Ryan, Lebanon County. REPRESENTATIVE TALLMAN: Will Tallman, Adams and Cumberland. REPRESENTATIVE HARPER: Kate Harper, Montgomery County. MS. MEREDITH BIGGICA: Executive Director, Minority

6 0 House Transportation Committee. MR. MORELAND: Greg Moreland, Research Analyst, Transportation Committee, office of Chairman John Taylor. MR. O'LEARY: Rick O'Leary, Executive Director for Chairman Barrar. REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Good morning, everyone. Representative Bill Kortz from Allegheny County, th District. REPRESENTATIVE BARBIN: Representative Bryan Barbin representing Cambria and Somerset, the City of Johnstown. REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: Barry Jozwiak, th District, Berks County. REPRESENTATIVE HILL-EVANS: Carol Hill-Evans, Berks County. REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: Rick Saccone, Southern Allegheny and northern Washington County. MS. BRINTON: Amy Brinton, Executive Director for Chairman Sainato. CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Great. Thank you. Anyone else that we missed? Okay. Thank you. Today's public hearing we will be looking at emergency towing in general while focusing on two proposals before the legislature. The purpose of this public hearing is to receive input and information regarding the use of emergency towing lights, House Bill, and Safety Requirements for Heavy-Duty

7 0 Tow Trucks, HB. It's important to keep Pennsylvania's highways safe and accessible. When accidents occur it's essential to have a safe and efficient cleanup process. Tow trucks are an important --- important element to the process, including heavy-duty tow trucks. As noted above, the focal point of the hearing is to allow for the committee to receive testimony regarding the issues and concerns that have been expressed pertaining to emergency towing, towing lights and safety requirements for heavy-duty tow trucks. Before we begin receiving testimony, I would like to ask our Subcommittee Chairman Culver and Chairman Sainato and also Bill Keller --- Chairman Keller to make some comments. Okay. Chairman Sainato? CHAIRMAN SAINATO: Thank you, Chairman Barrar, for allowing me to be here today. Thank you, Commissioner Solobay for hosting us. As Chairman Barrar said, these are some very important issues I think that both committees, Transportation and Emergency Preparedness, really need to find out. And there's two very important legislations that's been introduced. And I look forward to hearing the testimony today so we can come up with something that will help the residents of Pennsylvania. Thank you. CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Chairman Keller?

8 0 CHAIRMAN KELLER: Thank you, Chairman Barrar. I want to thank you for your leadership in bringing this public hearing together. It's the --- what we're supposed to do in the legislature to get input on bills that are pending. I'm excited to hear the testimony. And from the turnout I think it's going to be a good hearing. Thank you. CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you. CHAIRMAN CULVER: I want to thank Chairman Barrar, members, testifiers and guests for joining us all here today and for the Office of Fire Commissioner for hosting us. The towing issue, as well as emergency signals for tow trucks, has been around for a long time and there's been a lot of discussion on it. I have a district with a lot of major traffic routes through it, and towing for many different reasons is always kind of the topic for conversation, whether we're talking the State Police and the consumers of the services. So this is a great time for us to set out these issues. So we're looking forward to hearing from the stakeholders today. And just remember that I think safety on our highways is paramount and I look forward to the discussion on these bills today. And hopefully going back, everybody into this district --- I don't know if anybody realizes how varied and across the state all these members are today and all the committees we all sit on.

9 0 So you have a great panel listening to you today and taking back your testimony into the district is going to be helpful as we go forward with these bills, so I thank everybody for being here. CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Great. Thank you. Also, that has just joined us is Representative Lee James. What county, Erie? REPRESENTATIVE JAMES: Venango. CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Venango, okay. Great. REPRESENTATIVE JAMES: It's too far away. CHAIRMAN BARRAR: That's what happened. That's why you're late. REPRESENTATIVE JAMES: It's like an eight-hour drive. CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Hopefully, you didn't take the train. At this time I would like to call Mr. Ron Bressler, President of the Pennsylvania Towing Association. Ron, if you want to come up and bring your crew with you. Thank you. It's a pleasure to have you here. MR. BRESSLER: Sure. CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Have a seat and begin your testimony when you're ready. But I would ask your --- have your other colleagues introduce themselves. MR. BRESSLER: Go ahead, Debbie.

10 0 0 MS. ABEL: Good morning, everyone. Is this on? CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Can you hear? MS. ABEL: Hello? CHAIRMAN BARRAR: There you go. MS. ABEL: Good morning, everyone. First of all, I'd like to thank State Representative Barrar and the entire committee for holding this hearing this morning on such an important issue for our industry. We really appreciate it. We think it's an ongoing discussion that needs to be held, but we think that this bill is making tremendous progress. And so we appreciate your efforts and your concerns. I guess I should introduce myself. I'm Debbie Abel. I'm the Vice Chair of the Pennsylvania State Towing Association. And I have brought John Abel, who is a stakeholder in the heavy towing industry, who happens to also be my husband and also a Director on the Board of the PTA, and also Mr. Ron Bressler, who is the President. So if you would like to know a little bit about how this bill affects our industry, I'll leave it to the two professionals to explain it. CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Let me, just real quick, announce to the members --- I know a lot of members are fumbling through their papers. We did not get any written testimony from the Pennsylvania Towing Association, and so you don't need to look for it. But I know Ron wanted to go pretty much off the cuff

11 0 when he talked to us about the importance of this issue. So you can begin when you're ready. MR. BRESSLER: Okay. Am I working? CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Yeah. There you go. MR. BRESSLER: Okay. I'm usually --- my wife always tells me to be quiet. So you guys can hear me, that's good. As Debbie introduced me, I'm Ron Bressler, President of the Pennsylvania Towing Association. Also, I've been a heavy-duty tower for over 0 years myself. I own a towing company, do this. We face several challenges that neighboring states seem to have been able to figure out. And we're hopeful to work with the other stakeholders on this to try to figure out. We --- as the towing industry, we tend to get lumped in the same category with trucking a lot of times. And we are so much different than trucking. We are the --- you know, for instance, if a tow truck gets stopped and reprimanded for being overweight, they use the same type scale that they use to weigh a tractor-trailer who is carrying cargo. Unfortunately, all of our cargo happens to 0 to feet behind the truck, because we have to be able to reach it. So that whole scale in itself is a failed system. So that's why we live in some of these --- we have some of the exemptions we currently have. That's why

12 0 we've spent time talking to --- my Heavy-Duty Committee has spent time talking to Representative Barrar about some of the challenges we face just trying to do our job. One of the problems that we have in the towing industry is we don't set out any day to do our job. We are in the business of solving problems. We have not --- we have not planned any of what goes on, but we're trying to restore commerce to the highways in Pennsylvania. And you know, if that means that a --- that a permitted load was going down a road and at that moment the engine failed, we certainly can't leave it sitting there, obstructing the highway. So we are tasked with trying to figure out how to solve this problem for the State of Pennsylvania. Unfortunately, we bear the burden of trying to do this along the same lines of someone who has had the opportunity to try to schedule their load, load it properly and make it make sense within the laws. We basically --- you know, I use this phrase all the time. With a tow truck and a loaded --- you know, especially if it's an indivisible load, loaded tow truck and --- I always use --- I always use the analogy that it's two fat kids on a seesaw. And that's what it is. It takes a lot of weight to manage weight. With our current law structures, the heavier the truck we're towing to try to maintain --- to try to get with the laws that are in place today, we have to bring a lighter

13 0 truck. If we bring a lighter truck, that does nothing but deter public safety because we know the safest way to manage weight is with weight. So I hope to be able to answer any questions anybody has. Other than that, you know, as things unfold today, I'm willing to have any discussion with anybody. CHAIRMAN BARRAR: So can you --- can you expand a little bit on what the exact problem is? Is it just the length? Is it the weight? Is it where you drop off a truck at that point in time? That's what we need to know. MR. BRESSLER: It is. The provision in the law is for emergency clearance that if we are authorized --- if we are told --- as current stands now, if we are ordered or directed by an officer of the State or a State-authorized person, it doesn't say an officer of the State, we can then make the first move to the nearest safe place or place of repairs. Safe place, though, is a gray area because the nearest safe place, first of all, is private property. And I don't have the right to drop a tractor-trailer on someone's private property, you know, at a veterinarian clinic or something like that. I can't ruin someone's parking lot. These are heavy vehicles. So we --- we --- you know, the interpretation may be that's the safe area to do that. It's not my property. I don't have the authority to do that.

14 0 One of the other problems that comes into play is --- and the bill addresses that, too, is the towing of tractor-trailers. The towing of tractor-trailers can be done safely behind a heavy-duty tow truck because you operate all the brakes and everything there. The act of splitting a tractor-tractor, dis --- you know, discoupling the trailer from the tractor, is inherently --- has been built to be done in a private parking lot somewhere, has never been designed to be doing roadside because it's the only function in towing that we have to do standing in the --- in the travel lane of the highway. If any of you guys can envision the Schuylkill Expressway or Route or some of that, you know, the tow truck guys get killed at a rate faster --- you know, our mortality rate in the towing industry is right there with firemen and police. You just don't hear about it as much. But that --- the art --- or the act of splitting that truck has to be done standing in the lane. There are no passenger-side controls as there are in towing. So it is one of the most dangerous maneuvers. I've done it many, many times myself. It is extremely dangerous. It's much better if you can tow that combination unit and it's safe if you can tow that combination unit to a safe place to be able to split it. But under our current law, that safe place, again, could be private property, and I don't have the authority to do that.

15 0 Once you have pulled that to a safe harbor along the road, be that a wide area or whatever, the problem is, once we've been engaged, whether the police have called us or whatever, once we've been engaged in clearing the highway, we have the liability and the responsibility of that vehicle until it's in a safe place. So the question comes, if I take a --- if I take a disabled heavy truck and park it alongside the roadway because that's the closest safe place that the law permits me to do that and I leave it there --- because certainly we haven't cleared the highway, we've just moved it into another location, and you know, someone's daughter plows into the back of that, you know, I'm the one that left it there. I bear the responsibility of leaving it there. I should be the one to help with the decision making of where is the safe place. And place of repairs make much more sense to me. CHAIRMAN BARRAR: A little bit about the history that brought you to me. I know you and I talked about some of the fines that you've received in the past and the court battles you've been involved in. MR. BRESSLER: Towers --- towers receive fines quite often. I personally have had some pretty good ones. I know a lot of guys --- I get a lot of phone calls from a lot of guys that have. And that's not all law enforcement, but it can be. And to an extent we are kind of a moving target because we're

16 0 in a local area and that's where we conduct our business. So yeah, I've had fines of $0,000 being --- being called out of bed to go move --- go move a tractor-trailer for one police department and going to try to split it on private property and being refused by the property owner who said you can't drop that trailer here, and moving on to the next place, which would be my shop, which is my property and I do have the --- and we got popped. And again, using that formula of all the weight being on my truck. But it actually wasn't. It was all behind my truck, but you know ---. CHAIRMAN BARRAR: You took that all the way to what, Common Pleas --- just county court. Right? MR. BRESSLER: I did. CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Did it go higher --- MR. BRESSLER: No. CHAIRMAN BARRAR: --- did you appeal that higher? MR. BRESSLER: No. CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Okay. Great. The other Chairmen, any questions? CHAIRMAN KELLER: Again, I'm ignorant of all this stuff. Explain to me how it's safer to tow a tractor-trailer in one unit. I guess I would call them pivot points. You have the tow truck, the tractor and then the fifth wheel and then the trailer. Isn't that two?

17 0 MR. BRESSLER: It is. It's almost no different than a --- than a set of double trailers is. When you hook that to the back of the tow truck, I mean you just created another hinge point. But we --- doubles have been and triples in a lot of areas have been in play for a long time. So when you --- when you hook up to the front of a tractor trailer and you run your air lines properly, you are running --- you're running the brakes on the trailer completely with the brakes of the tow truck. If you use a brake pedal you're using every brake on the unit completely. Every time you hit your brake pedal, all that happens, so --- and virtually when you lift up the front of a tractor-trailer, you're not picking much weight. You could actually scale legally doing that because the front of the tractor doesn't weigh much. CHAIRMAN KELLER: But the pivot points aren't a problem ---? MR. BRESSLER: No, not a --- no. CHAIRMAN KELLER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Do you want to jump in? MR. ABEL: I was just going to say with the pivot points ---. CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Can you pull that closer? MR. ABEL: With the pivot points, if you --- you got to imagine a tractor-trailer is not going to be on a back road

18 0 like your back housing developments. Most likely, it's going to be on a major highway or something. So the problem is, is we go out and we pick the truck up on a major highway and we go down to, you know, either the next exit or back to our location, wherever we have to go and then we get popped because we did pull off someplace. And it's not that we're --- it's not --- in my opinion, it's not every cop that's doing it. It's just certain cops that are doing it. That's the problem, I think. You know what I mean? And I don't know if that's hurting us or helping us, but it's just --- it's a law. Some cops can enforce it. Some cops don't enforce it, you know. So I just think --- and if you're doing it --- like Ronnie explained with the brakes, you got to obviously take wider corners. You're not going to put some --- you know, somebody that's not experienced in a truck like that. CHAIRMAN KELLER: So the fines come from not from being overweight but bypassing an exit that they thought you should have gotten off on? MR. ABEL: Well, I believe it's coming because of the combination of law, which is what we have to get rid of, the towing of the tractor-trailers. Like Ronnie explained earlier, all the surrounding states allow you to tow a tractor-trailer. I've been in --- I've had tractor trailers in the lower --- in the lower part of

19 0 Maryland and I've actually sent one of my tow trucks to go down to Maryland to tow that truck all the way to the Maryland line and had another tractor meet them at the Maryland line, because in Maryland it's legal to tow a tractor and trailer, but in Pennsylvania it's now. So instead of sending two trucks, I have to tow that and have another truck them meet them at the Pennsylvania line and then split it because I don't want to take --- I don't want a $0,000 fine. MR. BRESSLER: Part of the issue isn't --- isn't the fact that we can tow a tractor-trailer. We can tow a tractor-trailer now if someone from the State tells us to. We can do it. We do it all the time. If the officer tells us to, we can. And so what --- what we're trying to do is understand that we are the towing professionals. We've got a lot of years at this. We have the training. We have all that. It's hard for me to understand some days how --- for instance, and as that's defined, a game warden could better know whether I could tow a tractor-trailer or myself. CHAIRMAN KELLER: So you're saying it's arbitrary, it's up to the individual ---? MR. BRESSLER: It is. It absolutely is. CHAIRMAN KELLER: Thank you. CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Lynda, did you have a question? CHAIRMAN CULVER: I'm good right now. CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Okay.

20 0 Chairman Sainato? Okay. Representative Jozwiak? Oh, while he's getting ready, we've been joined by Representative Ed Neilson from Philadelphia. REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thanks for driving up here. REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: Thanks for having us. REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: Hi, Ron, good morning, and Mr. and Mrs. Abel. Thank you for your testimony. I just have a couple questions. When you --- right now, when you're ordered to tow a truck and tractor-trailer, you're authorized to do it in Pennsylvania, is that correct, to do them now? So how far do you normally go? MR. BRESSLER: Usually to the best spot to break it down that you know that you can do it. And then that varies depending on the region you're in. REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: What's the average mileage? MR. BRESSLER: That's really tough to do. You know, probably in the Philadelphia area guys are going two, three, four miles before they get to a good spot. Or generally speaking, they're going --- sometimes they're going to a repair facility or back to their shop. REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: Okay. Under the current law, though, you got to pull up at

21 0 the nearest safest place? MR. BRESSLER: Correct. REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: Whether it be a wide spot on the road where you can disable the vehicle or disconnect it or go to some off --- off a ramp, like a trucking facility. So two, three, four miles is not a --- I have no problem with that. So when you pick up a tractor-trailer that's been in an accident and you lift up the truck tractor, you know, you have to take ten pins in the trailer down to the --- what does that do, the stress on that? That's not built for taking that truck up like that when you travel long distances. MR. BRESSLER: That pretty much is because a fifth-wheel plate has a great variation in how it --- how it moves. You know, that's how trucks can go up dips and down over and do all that. So it --- the angle that we pick it. And when you lift up the front of a tractor-trailer behind the tow truck and lift it --- I mean, you can --- you can do it as far as --- you know, rule of thumb that we teach our guys is usually about the top of your ankle. So you don't have to be very high off the ground. It's not --- it's not like you're lifting it two foot. REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: So when you have a vehicle that's in an accident, is it safe to say that you don't know the integrity of that vehicle, how good it is, taking it long

22 0 distances? Would you agree it's more important to get it off the road to a place of safe haven and stopped so you can determine the condition of the vehicle? MR. BRESSLER: That is correct. That is correct. And we have --- in an accident condition we have the provision when authorized by someone by the State to get it --- to make the first move. REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: You say it's legal in Maryland? I'm under the --- to tow a tractor-trailer? I'm under the impression it's not legal in New York in New Jersey. Is that correct? MR. BRESSLER: No. It is legal in New Jersey. New Jersey, it's --- I --- it's either or 0 miles. I get those numbers mixed up, but the tower has a medallion and a proof of insurance and all that to make it that he can do so. REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: You mentioned that you were arrested for an overweight vehicle. How were you weighed particularly? MR. BRESSLER: We were weighed on portable scales. The tow truck itself was weighed on portable scales. Well, everything was weighed and everything behind the tow truck was considered cargo. REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: So they place a portable scale under your wheel to do that? MR. BRESSLER: Correct.

23 0 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: I was just thinking about this. If you had a vehicle in an accident that's loaded --- half the load was spilled out or --- MR. BRESSLER: Right. REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: --- how do you weigh that? MR. BRESSLER: Yeah. MR. ABEL: It's a project. MR. BRESSLER: It is. REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: That has to definitely be the place of safety. MR. BRESSLER: Yeah. REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: But currently in Pennsylvania you are authorized to get these vehicles right off the road immediately to open the road? MR. BRESSLER: Yes. When --- when told to, yes. REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: The question that was --- the miles, I'm assuming you're talking about HB, which is the distance --- MR. BRESSLER: Right. REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: --- you can go is now miles. Why would you want to go miles? MR. BRESSLER: The thinking behind that was mirroring the other states. REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: Well, you said your normal distance you traveled was two, three, four miles. The only

24 0 reason I can think of to go miles, maybe you want to go to a trucking company ---. CHAIRMAN BARRAR: That was --- that was actually a compromise that if Sean had a meeting with Senate staff and some of the other staff with PennDOT and looking at --- that was I think the compromise language. I think when we originally wrote the bill that you and I had discussed, it had no limitations as far as mileage goes. That was something we put in after --- after a discussion with the State Police, with PennDOT, and the Senate staff trying to gain support for this, for the legislation. So that's where the miles comes from. MR. BRESSLER: That's correct. And to mirror other states. REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: I assumed the law ---. CHAIRMAN BARRAR: I think in the southeast that would be correct, I think, but if you go get it --- I mean, you know, if you get into some parts of Pennsylvania, miles ---. MR. BRESSLER: From Somerset to Carlisle, you know, it's not ---. REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: You have other exits and other places ---. MR. ABEL: If I could say something, though. REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: Sure. MR. ABEL: Most trucking companies aren't delivering

25 0 two miles within their radius. Most rucking companies are going 00, 0-mile radius. And I have a lot of trucking companies that we do also towing for. So sometimes their tractor-trailer breaks down 00 miles away, you know, or it could be 0 mils away. So it's whatever --- whatever the distance is, it would be nice to at least be able to go up, pick the thing up. I'm not --- I don't want to --- I'm not looking to go through any tows or something. I'm saying if it's right off the turnpike, because most of the trucking companies, they go up, they get off the turnpike and they go to a destination. If you can get right back on the turnpike and head back --- and you're right back to your destination, you know ---. MS. ABEL: Any major route. MR. ABEL: You know, any major route. You know, that's basically what --- and like I said, two miles is --- that's if you're in the city, if you're in a city or, you know, a local tower or something like that, but ---. REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: But to be on, every exit there's a trucking facility. It's not that you have to ---. MR. ABEL: Yeah. But that trucking facility --- if we pull in there with a loaded --- if we pull in there with a loaded tanker or a hazmat or something, there's no way they're going to let us drop that off there. There's no way. Not a chance. I mean, that's obviously extraordinary, but it's

26 just MR. BRESSLER: It was --- it was pretty much a catch-all because, tractor-trailer --- I mean, it's easy to sit here and envision a tractor and a dry van trailer, but there are so many combinations. Like for instance, a car carrier with a stinger that is not a conventional fifth wheel, the fifth wheel is about five inches off the ground and extends behind. So that is a tractor-trailer, too. Virtually breaking down a loaded car carrier is a nightmare for a towing company to do, it really is, because the way you have to move that trailer then without --- without --- we've all seen what car carriers look like. Same thing sometimes --- some of the various horse configurations that --- you know, carnival rides, gasoline tankers. Some of the gasoline tankers don't even have legs. You can't break them down. And it's unsafe as could ever be because the legs would penetrate up through --- you know, they're made to carry,000 gallons of gas, but they're certainly not made to ever be doing that without the stability of the tractor under them. You know, when you're towing a tractor-trailer like that, you have the eight tires of the tractor under the front of that trailer, too, which makes it much more stable than two rods that could pierce it. REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: The other question I had

27 0 was are you moving any vehicles that are put out of service by the police at the convenience of the company --- out of service for safety feature or maybe a driver driving too long? MR. BRESSLER: We are, yes. REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: That's not an emergency situation. That's just a convenience. Under the law you can do that for emergencies, you can move --- if they're put out of service --- if they're already off by the State Police. MR. BRESSLER: Well, they are, but I guess you just can't leave them there indefinitely. When they get put out of service and they're put in lots at these checks and stuff, they need to get them back to garages to be repaired. And not everything can be done roadside. You know, that becomes a real quagmire for us, too, because we have then --- we have then attached ourself to someone else's problem. REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: I understand that, but that vehicle can be taken apart and can be disconnected. And whether it's a tanker or whatever, all those are disconnected at some point, whether they do it at their terminals or facilities or in a repair shop. So it's not impossible to do that. MR. BRESSLER: Yeah. And a tractor-trailer for sure. But I was thinking more in terms of an 0,000-pound straight truck that's a non-divisible thing.

28 0 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: As far as moving vehicles for emergency purposes, to get off the road and clear it, go to a place of safety, that's necessary. To move it at the convenience of a company because it's been put out of service, I don't --- sorry, I have to disagree with that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you. We've been joined by Representative Doyle Heffley. And our next questioner is Representative Harper. REPRESENTATIVE HARPER: It seems in looking at Chairman Barrar's bill that you do need a special weight limitation for tow trucks so that you can do your job, which you're going to have variable weights and things like that. I'm also curious about the miles. I can see where it would be a bad thing for you guys to be able to figure out whether the safest place is here or there or whatever, so you want to --- you want some definable bright line that you can, yes, I'm within miles. But miles seems as if it's more than what you would need to get to a safe place, not private property but someplace. So is there some reason you can explain why you need miles? Why isn't it 0 miles or miles or as long as it's a bright line that you know from the point of visibility, which is where you pick it up? MR. BRESSLER: Again, they wrote that to mirror the neighboring states. You know, miles isn't a number that I

29 0 picked. And I certainly think that's open to more discussion with stakeholders to what makes sense. Again, that was --- that was written based on neighboring states' laws. So I --- that's not my number. REPRESENTATIVE HARPER: Okay. Thanks. Did you have ---? MR. ABEL: I just --- like I said, I just --- the same thing I said earlier about the tractor-trailers, when they're delivering stuff. Just sometimes they're out of the area and it just sometimes it runs into that. It's not that we're asking to do it all the time. We just would be able to do it if we're --- if we're able to do it, you know. REPRESENTATIVE HARPER: Great. My perspective on it is that I want you to get to a safe place, you know, to do what you need to do. And that may be miles away from wherever it is that stuff breaks down. But I don't know that we want to encourage the business of hauling these things for long, long distances. So I don't know what would be the right mileage myself. MR. ABEL: I agree with you. We don't want to encourage that either. REPRESENTATIVE HARPER: Thanks. CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you, Representative. Representative Barbin for questions? REPRESENTATIVE BARBIN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

30 0 0 The question I have is the concern of the Department of Transportation, that under the bill you wouldn't be subject to weight restrictions if the original permitted path would have been allowed. So let's say --- I was out west and I was looking at the trucks that are now connected by I-beams almost. They sometimes come up to like three --- you know, you could have a truck and two carried behind trailers of coal or whatever. What you're telling us in your testimony is that it's safer to keep that thing together the way it is until you can get it off the road. And what I'm worried about is there's this crack between safe area and miles. Is there any --- is there any problem that other states have had with the actual weight on the permitted route that makes us --- makes the way we're doing it not make sense? I guess my question is you got an 0,000-pound tow truck and you got 0,000 pounds in a combination of trucks behind. Is there anything that's happened in any of the other states to say that's more damaging to the permitted route than it would be if the truck that you're pulling just never broke down? Because you're spreading out the weight. The part --- the idea is if you have a truck on a road, it's going to do more damage than a car. Exponentially, it's the weight. If you've got a tractor that's in the front and then you got all of these things behind it that you're

31 0 pulling, has any other state said that this is more damaging when a tractor hooks up to the two or three other combinations that they're hooking up? Because that seems to be their objection. The objection is it's more dangerous. The bridge restrictions --- more damage to the road, but the other states are all doing it. So why are we not doing it? Why haven't we said that, no, you're displacing the weight? This isn't any different than driving the truck if it hadn't broken down. That's my question. MR. BRESSLER: That's exactly what Maryland says with their law. If the tow truck is registered for 0,000 pounds and it is legal as the tow truck and the cargo that it's hauling is registered at whatever weight it is and everything was legal before the breakdown, then the entire combination is legal. REPRESENTATIVE BARBIN: And isn't --- if that's true, then isn't this just about getting the whole thing off of the main road so that whoever's doing this is safe? MR. BRESSLER: It is. REPRESENTATIVE BARBIN: Okay. All right. I'm satisfied. CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you, Representative. Representative Tallman? REPRESENTATIVE TALLMAN: I'm just going to ask questions without the microphone. So I have two. And the

32 0 reason why I ask this first question is because we just had this call last evening, obstruction, disabled vehicle, and fire police were dispatched. You say you're out there. Doesn't that happen where you're at? I mean, we frequently get sent out. Fire police from my company get sent out because there's an obstruction. They're going to protect the scene until it's removed. Does that not happen where you're from? MR. BRESSLER: It happens where I'm from. That's very regional, though. Northern end of Pennsylvania fire police don't do that very often. Sometimes guys have to come up with Flagger Force or something like that. In the --- in the fire industry --- and I can't --- I can't speak to the whole Fire Academy as a whole, but volunteers are getting less and less and less all the time. So the long-term --- you know, they do emergencies generally. Not everything we do is an emergency. Sometimes it's just a broken drive shaft on a tri-axle dump truck that's blocking, there wasn't an accident --- so yeah, to answer your question, in my area, yes, fire police are still available, but a lot of areas throughout the state they are not. REPRESENTATIVE TALLMAN: has a 0-foot limit. I have no clue on this. Two trailers, a tractor and a tow truck, what does --- what does that equal to? I'm not sure. MR. BRESSLER: And I'm not --- I can't tell you exactly what that equals because there's different combinations

33 0 that would be different. I can tell you the maximum that tow truck can be in Pennsylvania is 0 feet. REPRESENTATIVE TALLMAN: So the tow truck itself was 0 and then you got the tractor and then the double trailer. MR. ABEL: Well, you got a trailer ---. REPRESENTATIVE TALLMAN: I think we're over 0 feet. I think. MR. ABEL: But the trailer's feet, I think, long. MR. BRESSLER: Well, there's usually pups. We don't --- Pennsylvania doesn't allow two full-length trailers. They allow us pups, which I think are feet. My numbers may not be right there, but I think they're. And then you have the tractor, which is generally on those a day cab, not a sleeper, so --- again, we were mirroring other states. REPRESENTATIVE TALLMAN: Thank you. MR. ABEL: Can I say something, sir? My question --- or my answer to one of your questions, your first question, is fire police doesn't respond to a breakdown car all the time. Somebody's car breaks down, they're not always out there for a breakdown. They're only out there for an accident or if the cops show up for a disabled, sometimes, most of the time. So sometimes ---. REPRESENTATIVE TALLMAN: If it's obstructing a highway ---. MR. ABEL: Oh, if it's obstructing, absolutely.

34 0 Maybe it's not obstructing. I'm just saying if it's --- if it's off the shoulder of the road, it's not obstructing. That's all I'm saying. So sometimes it's not necessarily, you know --- I'm agreeing with you is what I'm saying. Thank you. CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Representative Tallman, any other questions? Okay. Thank you. Representative Day? REPRESENTATIVE DAY: Two quick --- thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thanks to all the Chairmen for having us here today. PennDOT operates an automated system that tells them the safest route. Do you guys use that at all? Are you familiar with it? It's like AP --- A-P-R-A-S. MR. BRESSLER: The only time we would ever use that is if we were going out to pick up a permitted load that break down. REPRESENTATIVE DAY: Okay. And did you bring --- were they part of bringing this idea forward? Is that right, --- CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Yes. REPRESENTATIVE DAY: --- Mr. Chairman? And have you had a chance to meet with PennDOT and talk with them about your issues at all? I was just curious if you had that opportunity yet or if the Association has had the opportunity to meet with PennDOT on these issues? MR. BRESSLER: We haven't, but we sure hope to.

35 REPRESENTATIVE DAY: Okay. Thank you for your answers. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 0 I'm interested in more questions with other panelists about use of the red lights and also the -mile distance. It's a very interesting topic. Thank you for your time. CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Great. Thank you. I know --- Sean, did you want to expand any? I know you've sat in the stakeholder meetings between the Senate, PennDOT, State Police and yourself. MR. HARRIS: As it relates to the bill before us, that was drafted based on, if I remember correctly, New Jersey law because it was felt by the towers that that was the best law around. And it was only to be a starting point. So that -mile, that's where that came from. And the towers were going to negotiate. So it was only a starting point. But they're trying to find some way to reach a compromise to be able to tow combinations safely and to be placed out on a ---. CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you. Representative Kortz, question? REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for your testimony this morning. Mr. Bressler, I want to follow up on Representative Jozwiak. The number of states surrounding us, do I understand correctly that they all

36 0 have laws except New York? Is New York the only exception? MR. BRESSLER: I don't know what New York's law is. I've really studied Maryland. I've really studied New Jersey when we were putting this together, so I ---. REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: West Virginia? MR. BRESSLER: West Virginia --- West Virginia --- West Virginia I know, because I know the President of the Towing Association there, they buy a permit to be a tow truck and they have tons of exemptions. They can run --- I know --- I know their tow trucks don't stop at 0,000 pounds in West Virginia. REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Okay. MR. BRESSLER: I don't know what the law is, but I know they buy an exemption. REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: The $0,000 fine, did you win that? MR. BRESSLER: I did not. REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: You did not. So you were fined $0,000 and you had to pay that --- MR. BRESSLER: It was --- REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: --- right now? MR. BRESSLER: --- it was compromised after the second hearing. The amount of the fine came down some. But with attorney fees, we far exceeded $0,000. REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: The --- you mentioned that

37 0 the --- sorry, John, you had mentioned that it seems that there's certain officers that pull over trucks. Have you ever been given the opportunity or told to move a tractor-trailer by one policeman, maybe a State Policeman, then you're down to the local area and then the local policeman gives you a ticket? Does that happen where you got the authorization from one officer, but another officer pulled you over? MR. BRESSLER: That's exactly what happened to me, to my company. That's exactly what happened to us. We were clearing the highway for a local department and were unable to drop the trailer where we were told not. REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: That was the $0,000 fine, the police said yes and the other one said sorry? MR. BRESSLER: That is correct. REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Oh, may. Okay. So then the policeman that gave you the authorization, was he able to testify for you? MR. BRESSLER: Well ---. REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: I mean, that would have gave you cover. Right? MR. BRESSLER: Yeah. He testified that he saw us at the location where we wanted to drop --- he testified that he saw us in the truck stop attempting to drop the trailer and that we were asked to leave there. He testified to that. But

38 0 that doesn't --- that doesn't change the rules when we come back on the highway again. REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Okay. MR. BRESSLER: He saw that and he testified to that, yes. REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you. Representative Neilson? REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to talk about the miles. If there's an emergency on the road they call and they move that no matter what. Correct? So they may not wait --- MR. BRESSLER: Correct. REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: --- to know even if you have a contract with that, they just move it? MR. BRESSLER: That's correct. REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: How often is it that you travel miles to go tow a truck? I mean, what's your radius? I mean, I would think it's business that you're not going to drive 0 miles to grab a trailer, I mean, just in the business world. I mean, that's just ---. MR. BRESSLER: Well, in the business world of trucking we do --- we do really long distance because --- I

39 0 can, again, only speak for my company, but many times it's a food-grade load that has broken down somewhere and we will take a repower unit out to that guy so that they can keep the load moving. It would not be a situation where you would tow a tractor-trailer miles. REPRESENTATIVE NEILSON: Thank you. I have nothing further. CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you. We've been joined by Representative Frank Burns. We've had other hearings, but I don't think in Harrisburg we would have got all these members. That's fantastic. Representative Heffley? REPRESENTATIVE HEFFLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a quick follow-up to one of the earlier questions whether you can tow a vehicle 0 miles or miles. Is there anything different in the safety standard that you would apply moving a vehicle safely 0 miles to moving a vehicle safely miles? MR. BRESSLER: No. REPRESENTATIVE HEFFLEY: So if you're moving it 0 miles, you're going to apply the same safety standards as you would at miles? MR. BRESSLER: That's correct. REPRESENTATIVE HEFFLEY: And anything ca happen in mile, 0 miles or miles. So from a safety standpoint, you're doing the same thing, you're just going a little bit

40 0 farther. 0 MR. BRESSLER: That's correct. REPRESENTATIVE HEFFLEY: Okay. CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Great. Thank you. Representative Lawrence? REPRESENTATIVE LAWRENCE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I appreciate your willingness and your tenacity in tackling this issue which is a longstanding issue that needs to addressed. A tournament was going on. I was up last year and I picked up a nail in my minivan right next to where --- in the Lewistown Narrows going home. And I have never been in a situation more terrifying than on the side of that road with my wife and my two girls in our minivan. That road --- I mean, I'm sure some of you remember before it was wider than four lanes. But even then on the shoulder there it is --- it is not generous. I had my wife and my kids stand on the other side of the Jersey barrier, which I would encourage none of you to ever do. It's a sharp drop-off down into the water. At any rate, the tow truck that came up to pick me up --- thankfully, Representative Zimmerman happened to be going home and picked up my wife and kids and took them out of there. These cars are driving by, it's clear that ---

41 0 what's going on. A flatbed truck is trying to pick up my minivan and it's clear what's going on. These cars are going by at miles an hour and there is not an inch of forgiveness. None of them are slowing down. There's no police officer on the scene. This tow truck driver put his life on the line. I mean, it was really remarkable. I couldn't believe it. On the way out, you know, we talked a little bit about some of the challenging tows he's done out of the Narrows here. My question to you is that you're telling me that under state law today if a tractor-trailer breaks down on those Narrows you can't roll it out --- what happens if you're called and you say, you know what, I don't think I want to risk my life tonight at :00 in the morning going out there, I think I'd rather not do that? What happens the? What happens if you don't respond to the call? MR. BRESSLER: I can tell you after a $0,000 fine, that's exactly what you think, left me sleep next time. MR. ABEL: But what's going to happen, you know? MR. BRESSLER: I mean, the roads are going to get blocked, you know. We have to respond. You know what, we have a servant's heart. If anybody's going into this business, they have a servant's heart. So we're in business to try to serve people and try to help people. That's the whole reason we went in the towing business in the first place. So you know, we

42 0 don't --- we don't ever choose safety over --- over other people, you know. And if you take your situation and you compound it with snow and ice, I mean, that's what we do. It's in the servant's heart, and that's what we do. We just try to solve problems for other people, so --- you can refuse calls and --- but somebody, ultimately, is going to be that tower that's going to be standing there in that low speed lane trying to do that. MR. ABEL: But also the cops are going to call us. The cops are going to show --- the police are going to show up because this tractor-trailer's been sitting there for a long time. Eventually they're going to say we need their on-call tower to remove this tractor-trailer off the road. That's what's going to happen. And then he's going to get caught in the traffic because the first guy they called, he doesn't want to risk his life. So that's what's going to happen, the cops are going to show up. They're going to --- they may call for traffic. They may --- they may or may not. We're going to move it in order of the police. REPRESENTATIVE LAWRENCE: And if the police call the primary tower and the tower doesn't respond, would it be outrageous i mean to think that after a few calls like that the police say, you know, I'm just not going to call that tower anymore, --- MR. ABEL: Thank you.